On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 16:47:09 -0000, whisky-dave <whisky.dave@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, 24 March 2022 at 14:46:53 UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 13:51:42 -0000, whisky-dave <whisk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Thursday, 24 March 2022 at 12:58:41 UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 12:40:22 -0000, whisky-dave <whisk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On Tuesday, 22 March 2022 at 19:33:42 UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 15:22:18 -0000, whisky-dave <whisk...@gmail..com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > On Friday, 18 March 2022 at 17:06:54 UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> >> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 16:11:57 -0000, whisky-dave <whisk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > On Friday, 18 March 2022 at 14:52:58 UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 13:49:23 -0000, whisky-dave <whisk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> > On Friday, 18 March 2022 at 13:03:01 UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 12:38:48 -0000, whisky-dave <whisk....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> > On Friday, 18 March 2022 at 12:01:05 UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 11:18:01 -0000, David Brooks <B....@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Yes - switched to geographic features long ago!
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > OS X 10 beta: Kodiak - 13 September 2000
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > OS X 10.0: Cheetah - 24 March 2001
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > OS X 10.1: Puma - 25 September 2001
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > OS X 10.2: Jaguar - 24 August 2002
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > OS X 10.3 Panther (Pinot) - 24 October 2003
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > OS X 10.4 Tiger (Merlot) - 29 April 2005
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > [OS X 10.4.4 Tiger (Chardonnay)]
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > OS X 10.5 Leopard (Chablis) - 26 October 2007
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard - 28 August 2009
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > OS X 10.7 Lion (Barolo) - 20 July 2011
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion (Zinfandel) - 25 July 2012
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > OS X 10.9 Mavericks (Cabernet) - 22 October 2013
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > OS X 10.10: Yosemite (Syrah) - 16 October 2014
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > OS X 10.11: El Capitan (Gala) - 30 September 2015
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > macOS 10.12: Sierra (Fuji) - 20 September 2016
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > macOS 10.13: High Sierra (Lobo) - 25 September 2017
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > macOS 10.14: Mojave (Liberty) - 24 September 2018
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > macOS 10.15: Catalina (Jazz) - 7 October 2019
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > macOS 11: Big Sur - 12 November 2020
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > macOS 12: Monterey - 25 October 2021
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> Oh that really is childish, look how they started going up in whole numbers. 19 years of point something, then suddenly two whole numbers in 2 years. It's a competition between them and Microsoft to have a higher number.
>> >> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >> > Nothing to do with MS and whole numbers. It is how updates work.
>> >> >> >> >> >> > If it's a minor u[pdate or bug fix you don;t need a whole number change.
>> >> >> >> >> >> > Mac OS 1 started in 1984.
>> >> >> >> >> >> > In those days updates were'nt as regualar as there was little point in sending out new discs every few days.
>> >> >> >> >> >> > It wasn;t until easy downloads for most were availbe that it was worth doing such small regular increments.
>> >> >> >> >> >> > Mac OS X or 10. was a totally new system based on uniX
>> >> >> >> >> >> Incorrect. My Windows 11 is 10.0.22000.556 if you ask it.
>> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> I also don't believe Apple released only minor changes for 19 years, then suddenly came up with two major changes in 2 years.
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > I never said minor changes or updates, I said increments.
>> >> >> >> >> You said "If it's a minor u[pdate or bug fix you don;t need a whole number change."
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Correct regarding intergers
>> >> >> >> > Recently my firefox went from 97.0.1 to 97.0.2 which just fixed a few bugs.
>> >> >> >> Yeah, so Firefox have made 96 significant changes, I don't think so.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > No one said it has.
>> >> >> But the first number is for a major change - you said so yourself:
>> >> >
>> >> > No I used the word increment nothing to do with first numbers.
>> >> >
>> >> >> "Nothing to do with MS and whole numbers. It is how updates work. If it's a minor update or bug fix you don't need a whole number change."
>> >> >
>> >> > Yep.
>> >> So you're saying a big change is the first number, and a small change is other numbers. so Firefox are being silly when they say 96 major changes.
>> >> >> > What about windows 5, 6 and 9 ?
>> >> >> Marketing bullshit, they decided years or names would be better.. No different to the the animal bullshit from Apple. Is a tiger better than a leopard? Who knows? Only David Attenborough.
>> >> >
>> >> > They are differnt animals and I'm sure there's no order of which animal is best, it's just a label.
>> >> > A bit like windows millennium and what about XP, CE and vista.
>> >> I agree they're all stupid, they should just be numbers. I have no idea if a lollipop is better than a mars bar on Android either.
>> >
>> > My students have names but I organise them by email number of group number.
>> Indeed, when I studied we all had a "matriculation number".
>
> Now that does sound a bit borg like. We have student number but I rarely see that number.

Neither did I.

>> >> >> >> > whereas OS9 to OS X was major change like going from DOS to Window, but even greater
>> >> >> >> > as it was a complete system re-write not just a fancy GUI.
>> >> >> >> And somehow 11 and 12 appeared in 2 years, after 19 years of no major changes?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > what do you mean by major change? cars haven't changed much since in the last 100 years have they ?
>> >> >> > They still have a wheel in each corner and another used as steering.
>> >> >> Apple decided the last two were significant, yet the 19 years of work before that achieved nothing significant.
>> >> >
>> >> > Because that's how it was.
>> >> > A bit like going into a bar and drinking differnt types of beer and one day you then start buying spirits.
>> >> > Totally differnt way of drinking.
>> >> So you're saying the last two re significantly different? I doubt it.
>> >
>> > Depends on features or what's been added. Then there's imporvements , and then bug fixes.
>> I doubt there were two major changes recently, after nothing significant for 19 years.
>
> Added extra functionality but unless I bother to look I won;t know, I know there's something new in facetime .
> but I don;t use it.

So not really a major change. More like a marketing ploy.

> Something new for macOS Monterey is the introduction of AirPlay to the Mac. When the update arrives, you'll be able to stream and share content from your iPhone, iPad or other Mac directly onto the screen of an iMac or MacBook. Not only that, but the Mac can act as an AirPlay speaker, meaning you can stream songs to it from your other Apple devices. You could use this feature to create multi-room audio for a party, for example.

Err..... we've had that for ages on Windows PCs. Any Android phone can show it's display or one app onto a PC or TV. Great for showing a video you recorded to several people. It's called casting.

>> >> >> >> >> > Their effect was generall indicated by the number just like anything else that uses numbers.
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > What is windows 10 got to do with Mac OS X (10), Mac OS X came out long before windows 10.
>> >> >> >> >> It shows MS hasn't actually used a whole version number, they're just keeping up with Apple on the box.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > What box ,
>> >> >> >> The cardboard box, I was meaning the number people see when they buy it.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Not sure when the last 'box' for apple OS , last one I have is snow leopard, about 10 years ago.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Are windows still shipping their OS's in boxes with DVDs inside.
>> >> >> It's a figure of speech you silly old fart.
>> >> >> >> >> > Hwo comes windows was such an erratci number pattern W3..0, 3.1 , 3.5 NT4 Wxp, W2000 W millenium
>> >> >> >> >> > W2003 then windows vista then windows 7,8, what happens to 9 then windows 10 trying to keep up with Mac OS 10
>> >> >> >> >> The sales team couldn't make up their mind whether words, years, or version numbers sell best.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > So what happened to windows 9, Windows went from 7 to 8 then 8.1 then 10 and now 11 shortly to be windows 365 next
>> >> >> >> > which will be even more confusing.
>> >> >> >> If you say 9 in English, it sounds like "no" to a German. They didn't want a Windows no.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > People didn't think that about Mac OS 9
>> >> >> Germans aren't stupid enough to use an Apple Os.
>> >> >
>> >> > So why worry about whate germans think ?
>> >
>> >> They didn't, which is why Apple used 9 and MS didn't. Actually most Germans use Linux. At least every German I worked with did.
>> >
>> > Seems it's easy to find out.
>> > Microsoft skipped Windows 9 to avoid confusion with Windows 95 and Windows 98. Specifically, there was existing code, written by third parties (i.e. not modifiable by Microsoft) that detected old windows versions by checking if the version name began with the character '9'.
>> Apparently that's a myth.
>
> Not from what I've heard , remmber the millennium bug didn't affect Macs as their date code could go past the year 1999
> a lot of PCs couldn't well those running windows.
>
> Seems like the same oddity makes more sense than MS and what Germans might think

There was no millennium bug. It was bullshit that loads of companies paid other companies to come check.

>> > Guess windows users have difficult with version numbers like which os best windows 9 windows 95 or windows 98
>> > the higher number or the lower number ?
>> >
>> > Apple doesn't have this problem
>> Didn't the X confuse them?
>
> Anything will confuse an american but most knew X is 10 in roman numerals and others assumed the X was for uniX
> and others that it meant 10 because after their previous OSs went from 1 to 9 then there's 10, unless you're a windows user
> which means the next number go 3.0 3.5, W XP, millennium or was it windows Me , NT3.5, Windows 2003 , NT4 Vista, windows 7 windows 8 then windows 10 Windows .

Yeah Windows Marketing isn't it's strongpoint.

>> >> >> >> >> > If your windows 11 reports it'self as being windows 10.0.22000.556 , that's not Apples problem.
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > I've used all since Tiger! :-)
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> Why did you take that long to upgrade to 10?
>> >> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >> > Think my first usable was Puma although didn't start liking it until Jaguar,
>> >> >> >> >> >> They all look the same to me.
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > No suprise there , but windows from XP onwards has always loooked like a crappy verion of Macs OS's to me.
>> >> >> >> >> > even since windows 3.1
>> >> >> >> >> > Word came out first on the Mac with WYSISYG , so MS tried to copy Mac interface, icons and usability but mostly failed.
>> >> >> >> >> It vastly improved it. We had a taskbar long before you.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > A taskbar is quite minor though and while you may have had a taskbar, Mac OS you could just go to the finder icon top right click and go down to any applicationt hat was currently open this came out in the late 1980s or maybe ealier .
>> >> >> >> The taskbar is the best thing since sliced toast. You can always see what apps are running and easily switch between them.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > You could do that with a Mac long before from the finder icon, you could even see how much memory they were using,
>> >> >> > task bar can;t do that. Here's system 6 from 1988.
>> >> >> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_6
>> >> >> Where does that say anything about which apps are running?
>> >> >
>> >> > it shows how much memory the system is taken then the finder and if there was an app running
>> >> > it would show up.
>> >> The task bar is for what's running, the task manager is for what you're talking about.
>> >
>> > why have the 2 seperate .
>> Because the taskbar is used everyday, it's like the dock, you use it to see what's running and to switch between things. The taskbar is only for troubleshooting.
>
> you could click on the mac task bar and select which app was in the forground it was the quickest way to do that.
> Simial;r to what yuo can do in windows today and Mac today but this was back in 1988.

Windows had it first. Your dock wasn't there until OS X.

>> >> >> P.S. ROTFPMSL!
>> >> >> "Initial releases of System 6 are unstable; many third-party developers did not receive advance copies, resulting in widespread compatibility issues.[2] The contemporary versions of many common programs such as Microsoft Excel, Microsoft Works and 4th Dimension were not fully compatible with System 6.[2] There were also software bugs in the Color Manager, Script Manager, and Sound Manager extension files. Apple announced that 66 bugs were fixed with version 6.0.1 update, in September 1988.[16][17] However, a major bug involving the text-spacing of screen fonts was found, and was fixed in version 6.0.2.[17] Some customers waited longer until moving to System 6 because of its poor reputation."
>> >> >
>> >> > Not the small increments in the number changes.
>> >> > And as MS they were still on DOS, PC usuers will still typing command lines, while mace users were draging icons.
>> >> > PCs couldn't even run word or excel until windows 3 which wouldn't be released until 2 years later in 1990 and that was pretty crap,
>> >> > I remember it. Also yuo had to keep switching back to DOS to do most things.
>> >> Yeah the BnW overpriced Apple was way better.
>> >
>> > Over-priced for those that didn't want to pay for them. A bit like rolex watches and lamborghinis amonst others.
>> Anybody who buys Rolex or Lamborghini is an idiot.
>
> If an idiot has money why not seperate it from them.

Yip, that goes for all Apple users.

> Lots of people use delivery services too, when they could cook for themselves or even go out and get it themselves.

Time is money.

>> >> >> >> > My all time favourite game was carmeggedon.
>> >> >> >> I loved that - did you get the splat pack for more blood?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Yes, let say I aquired it. Once we had 6 players set up in a house everyone bought there maces over.
>> >> >> > Mostly the G3 CRTs my mac was a G3 300 tower, amazing what you could do with 300MHz and 6MB of video ram.
>> >> >> I ran a coax ethernet cable (and an audio cable) along the back garden wall of several houses and made a network for the whole street. Multiplayer games, yelling at each other through microphones, waking people up in the middle of the night, and abusing the free internet access from the uni I was studying at.
>> >> >
>> >> > We were using RJ45 with a hub, I think the PCs in the lab were still using thinnet, the iMacs came with it built in
>> >> > so people didn't have to worry about installing cards getting the right software it just worked.
>> >> Appletalk was a pain in the arse.
>> > It didn;t use Appletalk, but the macs were the first computers we had networked up and users a filesharer
>> Are you younger than me? In 1997 I was using Appletalk at a University.
>
> I meant carmaggedon didn't use Apple talk did it?, well not the cables anyway.
> thought it was ethernet as I never had appletalk setup at home.

I played Carmageddon with ethernet 10-base-T coax.

>> > that actually worked. We did have a BBC computer system in the languages labs running over econet.
>> Econet worked fairly well, but I can't remember much about it.
>
> But really expensive from what I remmber more expensive than an Apple HD and not very user friendly.

How is a cable expensive?

>> > But it didn;t seem to have many uses.
>> > We were teaching C and Lisp various versions of Pascal on the macs via the fileserver which was also connected to a couple
>> > of research Mac II, mac fx etc...
>> >
>> >> I used coax as the cable is much tougher and was fine outside in Scottish weather.
>> >
>> > We used our computers inside building ;-)
>> Yeah well I'm talking about several houses along a street. Couldn't be bothered setting up microwave links ;-)
> Yes I guessed, we had all gathered in the same house bringing our Macs, beer and munchees.
> Gave me strange waking dreams too where I felt I was driving when trying to get to sleep about 5am

My first job involved a 1 hour commute each way. Every night I saw taillights. I car shared with someone else in a neighbouring company, but I wanted to drive and not be a passenger, so he paid cash and I drove. He watched for speed cameras.

>> >> >> > No they seemed to go to SCSI which was much better but of course more expensive, yuo could get IEEE adapters .
>> >> >> That SCSI was ridiculous, there must have been about 8 different connectors.
>> >> >
>> >> > I only remember 2 types that Macs used.
>> >> I had to deal with a lot more than that, all of these in fact:
>> >> https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-UGlY6ECXjEM/VsJ72yTEVZI/AAAAAAAAGl8/2Ih43yAgfk8/s1600/SCSI%2Bconnectors.jpg
>> >
>> > Macpluses had the DB25 and the hard discs had the 50 way low density.
>> > My G4 mac had the option of 1 or 2 10,000 rpm SCSI drives with the 68 pin connectors.
>> >
>> > More problems were with PCs serial and parellel D-types were 9, 15, 25 or 37 pin were they crossed or straight
>> > did they use parrity or X-0n X-0ff did they use DTR or CTS or other variants.
>> > Did the 25 way use all pins of just 9 so we had to buy the more expensive leads from RS that had a 25 wired up
>> > rather than the cheaper 25 way (
>> I blew up my dad's PC motherboard by connecting a friend's serial printer to his parallel port. What moron thought it would be a good idea to have parallel and serial with the same connector? Oh well, I persuaded MJN to replace it under warranty.
>> >> >> > The OS needs to support the graphics card.
>> >> >> The OS should run on a basic card or inbuilt graphics.
>> >> >
>> >> > Define a basic card ?
>> >> > OS's don't have inbuilt graphics, the computer has that.
>> >> Windows will run on any graphics, including built in super VGA on the board of an antiquated server, I have two such beasts: One of the little black chips without even a heatsink. VGA analogue output only. https://www.pcbitz.com/content/images/products/13364/thumbnail/dell-poweredge-r410-server-motherboard-1v648-2.jpg
>
> I'm not sure those that buy a Mac with 16 billion colours are very concenrted if yuo can boot it up win 256 colours
> so yuo can fault find.

The problem appears to be with a Mac you need a decent graphics card just for the OS?

>> >> >> > you could have dual monitors on a Mac in the late 80s.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> Did you have to buy overpriced Apple memory, or does it take normal stuff?
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > No normal stuff, usually from crucial.com.
>> >> >> >> > In ~1992 I went on the Apple service course near hearthow airport at the time.
>> >> >> >> > Part of the test was to upgrade the ram in a quadra 700. I went to the 'teacher' and said can I have
>> >> >> >> > four 1MB simms, he said fill out the form, I did and put a local supplier down at £30 per simm,
>> >> >> >> > he said you should really get them from us at £100 per simm as we guarentee them.
>> >> >> >> > I said we get them and if they don't work send them back and they replace them.
>> >> >> >> > Never had a problem upgrading any Mac. They asked where I worked , then they said they understood.
>> >> >> >> I did the same with Dells.
>> >> >> >> > You get this with most high end companies, you want your Rolex watch battery changed taken it to their local dealer.
>> >> >> >> > You want your gucci handband repaired, take it to Gucci.
>> >> >> >> > Nothing stopping you from doing it yourself if you know what you're doing. Similar with cars.
>> >> >> >> My neighbour has an £80 Calvin Klein watch. I saw him take it off to wash the dishes and he admitted it wasn't waterproof! For that price! When he needed a new battery, he paid £40, half the value of the watch! Fucking idiot, he's a tradesman, he has all sorts of tools. He even repaired the gearbox in a saw. But couldn't change a battery?!
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Is it true you can't replace the battery in an Iphone without monumentally expensive tools?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I think so haven;t tried my iphone 7 is still OK . Don;t think the tools are that expensive, or that specialised.
>> >> >> > I've used a credit card to open up a Mac display.
>> >> >> Apparently Apple "bricked" Iphones if you tried that sort of "naughty" stuff. They actually destroyed your own property.
>> >> >
>> >> > That was a myth , plenty of places you can get an iphone battery replaced.
>> >> https://www.ipadrehab.com/article.cfm?ArticleNumber=17
>> >> > and yuo can do it yuorself but you need a bit of skill.
>> >> > https://www.ifixit.com/Device/iPhone_7
>> >> >
>> >> > Some of my second year electronics students can't even strip a bit of wire without using their phone.
>> >> > I tell them to look up stripper on their phone, that keeps them busy for an hour or two ;-)
>> >> ROFL! Oh go on, buy them one of the foolproof strippers: http://www.prc68.com/I/Images/AdjWirStrpb.jpg
>> >
>> > we supply them with these.
>> > https://www.rapidonline.com/anvil-av-aws-automatic-wire-stripper-86-0390
>> They look very similar to mine. Glad to see you don't use the overpriced RS Components, I can't believe they're still in business.
>
> Yeah we do use them sometimes and sometimes they are cheaper but it;s rare.
> They are relible though , as are farnell and Rapid.

Yes I usually used Farnell/CPC and Rapid. RS for rare shit.

>> >> >> >> > With our lab PCs we were told not to change the hard discs otherwise we'd void the warrenty.
>> >> >> >> > So because they are so slow takes 10mins for them to start after installing latest updates,
>> >> >> >> > we replaced them with SSDs. If one goes wrong and we've had a few go wrong we put the HDs back,
>> >> >> >> > and they don't even know.
>> >> >> >> My first PC said it mustn't be opened or the warranty is void. It's bullshit. I'd added a graphics card and they still came out and changed something under warranty. The guy said as long as he didn't see any physical damage by my stupidity it's fine. They just want to put off morons.
>> >> >
>> >> > Similar approach that Apple takes.
>> >> > Then the Apple haters start screaming that Apple stuff can't be repaired or updated.
>> >> > I've not needed to have my iphone 7 (2016) repaired or updated so far.
>> >> Why do they lie then?
>> >
>> > Look up confirmational bais ,
>> > Trump used a similar approach in politics, say the wrong thing often enough and loud enough and it becomes correct.
>> If it happened it happened.
>> >> >> > yeah can;t blame them when yo see what some people are like.
>> >> >> I worked with a professor who could fuck up any computer by simply touching the mouse. Somehow she'd click 50 things and drag stuff everywhere, a system error would result in seconds. Yet she could speak 17 languages fluently.
>> >> >
>> >> > Yeah diffent skill sets, a teacher friend of mine has a degree in politics and in history and teaches English.
>> >> > But he couldn't login to his bank account on his Apple laptop, but could on his iMac.
>> >> > I tried helping him on via a phonecall same username and password, I looked up all the things that might be the cause including
>> >> > minot updates to safari, tried other browswers, restarts in the end after 2+ weeks of this
>> >> > I had to tell him to phone the bank.
>> >> > One day later he phoned me back saying it's working now, I was trying to log into a business account on the Laptop
>> >> > and I dont have a business account and that's why the user-name didn't work.
>> >> >
>> >> > I remember setting him up on the iMac as a 'normal' user account 2 years earlier, it just never occured to me that
>> >> > he could get something like that so wrong, maybe the bank has this problem with users .
>> >> Common sense isn't.
>> >
>> > Trouble with common sense is it just not as common as we think.
>> Agreed. We should kill everyone without it. Push them over a cliff (Monty Python).
>
> Don;t tempt me, plenty of students like that , I even bought one of my whips in , in case I needed tp enforce socal distancing
> but dough H&S will let me even get it out let alone use it !

Social distancing is for girls. But whips are fun, especially with young naked students.