In message <ubrbo6$10q4j$1@dont-email.me>
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

> On 2023-08-19 14:11, David Higton wrote:
> > In message <ubojpe$ch7s$5@dont-email.me>
> > Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Change the radio stations and control the volume.
> >
> > In my EV, the volume controls are on the steering wheel as well as the
> > centre console (dedicated buttons there, not the touch screen).
> >
> > I can change stations by voice control.
>
> None of which changes the fact that controls on a touchscreen are a
> terrible idea.

Not so. There are plenty of uses for a touchscreen that you'd do
while not driving.

David

On 8/19/23 2:24 PM, David Higton wrote:
> In message <ubpa8b$jn7n$1@dont-email.me>
> The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 8/18/23 2:41 PM, David Higton wrote:
>> > In message <ubon8c$dbr1$1@dont-email.me>
>> > The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > I'm certainly glad to be rid of the smog that we had 50 years ago, no
>> > > question about it, but making ourselves miserable for no good purpose
>> > > (enrichment of Al Gore is NOT a good purpose) seems counterproductive.
>> >
>> > Making ourselves miserable? In what way? I can't see any evidence that
>> > any of this is making us miserable. I'll be interested to see your
>> > explanation of your words.
>>
>> How about having to convert our economical gas-fired homes to
>> all-electric. Some of us don't actually need to heat our houses. We
>> don't do a lot of cooking. We shower at the gym. But we are really
>> pissed that we just bought a $1K gas stove which we expected to be buried
>> in.
>
> You won't be forced to convert to all-electric before you're ready to
> do so. Legislation is not retroactive. New builds will have to be
> all-electric, yes, but that doesn't affect you.

The intent is to require the conversion of existing homes from gas to
electricity. All it takes to shut off the gas is a decision and a big
switch. Not clear who's allowed to make that decision, and it's not
clear who's allowed to overturn it. But it's what the asshole greenies
want and they seem to be really good at getting what they want.

Nobody wanted to convert their cars to run on unleaded, but we all had
to replace our old cylinder heads with "smog heads" with hardened valve
seats. At some point we were required to install some sort of anti-NOX
device, which was later NOT required -- BUT the sticker placed on the
instrument panel when the device was installed WAS required to be there.
Fortunately the shop that had installed the NOX device a decade or two
previously found an appropriate sticker in the back of the manager's
desk drawer so we could continue to drive the 1968 Dodge van. Yes, it
IS insane. Yes, it WAS required. This is California. Idiots ruled by
idiots.

I live here only because the house is paid for, the property taxes are
minimal (Thanks, Howard!), and all our friends and family live here. I
once thought California was a good place. Now it's just a dump with a
few pretty places. And did I mention the hell-in-a-handbasket public
school system? Don't get me started.

> Your gas stove emits pollutants inside your home at levels that would be
> illegal outdoors. You can carry on living in that as long as you like.
> We have an induction cooker.

I've lived with gas stoves and heaters for 80 years and I still ski and
play tennis. Tell me more about this pollution of which you speak. I
find it interesting that only recently has the poisonous nature of
natural gas been discovered.

BTW, did you know that you can actually be ELECTROCUTED by touching
electric wires? Why were we not told about this earlier?

>> How about having to get rid of the first NICE car we have ever had?
>
> Again, you won't have to get rid of it until you're ready to do so.
> But people who hang on to petrol-powered museum pieces may start to
> find it difficult to buy petrol, as less of it gets used.

You're living in a fantasy world where you are a grown-up and no longer
need a nanny to look after you. Here in California things are very
different. I am unable to buy a kitchen sink faucet that will fill my
sink in under 5 minutes. Theory has it that we just sort of sit there
and watch the water run down the drain for fun rather than filling a
container with the amount of water we need so we need The State to save
us from ourselves. Our gasoline is different and more expensive, only
part of the additional cost due to manufacture. Our jerry cans are very
nearly useless.

> I love steam trains, but I wouldn't dream of trying to run a modern
> railway with them.
>
>> How about all the other bullshit that supposedly greenifies our world?
>> Some cities, for instance, want our compostable scraps to be put in
>> little bags and placed in the top of our yard waste containers. Other
>> cities want it put in loose. Others just put all the trash in one big bin
>> and let people (presumably otherwise unemployable) sort it out at the
>> plant.
>> They can't even agree on how to properly deal with table scraps.
>
> We have to separate out some of our waste. It's no big deal. I wish
> there were some more categories.

It's no problem at all, but what gripes me is that the assholes make
rules without actually thinking about their implementation or effects.

>> How about increasing the density of our suburbs so that people won't have
>> to drive so far to go to work?
>
> Really? You want to live more crowded?

No. I live in a cheap suburb with 50x150 lots and 1KSF houses. It's
now legal to put 4-unit apartment houses in my single-family
neighborhood as well as "accessory dwelling units? (granny flats),
thereby increasing the density here as well as in the center of the city
where bigger and bigger multi-unit buildings are going up. "Increasing
the density" is a negative; I would have thought that was understood.

The State has ordered thus. Apparently the State can withhold some of
the sales tax money if the City tells the State to fuck off. My
feeling: we were here first. Tough luck if you want to live here --
get in line or move further out and build your own damn city.

But we digress...

--
Cheers, Bev
"What's truly sad is that your vote counts the same as mine."
-- S. Brown

On 2023-08-19 14:54, David Higton wrote:
> In message <ubrbo6$10q4j$1@dont-email.me>
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-08-19 14:11, David Higton wrote:
>>> In message <ubojpe$ch7s$5@dont-email.me>
>>> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Change the radio stations and control the volume.
>>>
>>> In my EV, the volume controls are on the steering wheel as well as the
>>> centre console (dedicated buttons there, not the touch screen).
>>>
>>> I can change stations by voice control.
>>
>> None of which changes the fact that controls on a touchscreen are a
>> terrible idea.
>
> Not so. There are plenty of uses for a touchscreen that you'd do
> while not driving.

Really?

Such as?

On 2023-08-19 15:11, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 8/19/23 2:24 PM, David Higton wrote:
>> In message <ubpa8b$jn7n$1@dont-email.me>
>>            The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/18/23 2:41 PM, David Higton wrote:
>>> > In message <ubon8c$dbr1$1@dont-email.me>
>>> >            The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > > > I'm certainly glad to be rid of the smog that we had 50 years
>>> ago, no > > question about it, but making ourselves miserable for no
>>> good purpose > > (enrichment of Al Gore is NOT a good purpose) seems
>>> counterproductive.
>>> > > Making ourselves miserable?  In what way?  I can't see any
>>> evidence that
>>> > any of this is making us miserable.  I'll be interested to see your
>>> > explanation of your words.
>>>
>>> How about having to convert our economical gas-fired homes to
>>> all-electric.  Some of us don't actually need to heat our houses.  We
>>> don't do a lot of cooking.  We shower at the gym.  But we are really
>>> pissed that we just bought a $1K gas stove which we expected to be
>>> buried
>>> in.
>>
>> You won't be forced to convert to all-electric before you're ready to
>> do so.  Legislation is not retroactive.  New builds will have to be
>> all-electric, yes, but that doesn't affect you.
>
> The intent is to require the conversion of existing homes from gas to
> electricity.

Really? And you're basing that claim on... ...what?

> All it takes to shut off the gas is a decision and a big
> switch.  Not clear who's allowed to make that decision, and it's not
> clear who's allowed to overturn it.  But it's what the asshole greenies
> want and they seem to be really good at getting what they want.

Supporting evidence, please.

>
> Nobody wanted to convert their cars to run on unleaded, but we all had
> to replace our old cylinder heads with "smog heads" with hardened valve
> seats.

Ummmmmm.... ...because lead is POISONOUS TO HUMANS.

> At some point we were required to install some sort of anti-NOX
> device, which was later NOT required -- BUT the sticker placed on the
> instrument panel when the device was installed WAS required to be there.

That's... ...nicely vague.

>  Fortunately the shop that had installed the NOX device a decade or two
> previously found an appropriate sticker in the back of the manager's
> desk drawer so we could continue to drive the 1968 Dodge van.  Yes, it
> IS insane.  Yes, it  WAS required.  This is California.  Idiots ruled by
> idiots.

Yeah... ...those "idiots" who decided that maybe having decent air to
breathe was a good idea.

>
> I live here only because the house is paid for, the property taxes are
> minimal (Thanks, Howard!), and all our friends and family live here.  I
> once thought California was a good place.  Now it's just a dump with a
> few pretty places.  And did I mention the hell-in-a-handbasket public
> school system?  Don't get me started.

Who could stop you?

>
>> Your gas stove emits pollutants inside your home at levels that would be
>> illegal outdoors.  You can carry on living in that as long as you like.
>> We have an induction cooker.
>
> I've lived with gas stoves and heaters for 80 years and I still ski and
> play tennis.  Tell me more about this pollution of which you speak.  I
> find it interesting that only recently has the poisonous nature of
> natural gas been discovered.

"I've smoked for 85 years and I didn't get cancer".

>
> BTW, did you know that you can actually be ELECTROCUTED by touching
> electric wires?  Why were we not told about this earlier?

BTW, did you know that electrical codes are written to make that
possibility extremely unlikely.

>
>>> How about having to get rid of the first NICE car we have ever had?
>>
>> Again, you won't have to get rid of it until you're ready to do so.
>> But people who hang on to petrol-powered museum pieces may start to
>> find it difficult to buy petrol, as less of it gets used.
>
> You're living in a fantasy world where you are a grown-up and no longer
> need a nanny to look after you.  Here in California things are very
> different.  I am unable to buy a kitchen sink faucet that will fill my
> sink in under 5 minutes.  Theory has it that we just sort of sit there
> and watch the water run down the drain for fun rather than filling a
> container with the amount of water we need so we need The State to save
> us from ourselves.  Our gasoline is different and more expensive, only
> part of the additional cost due to manufacture.  Our jerry cans are very
> nearly useless.

Cite, please.

>
>> I love steam trains, but I wouldn't dream of trying to run a modern
>> railway with them.
>>
>>> How  about all the other bullshit that supposedly greenifies our
>>> world? Some  cities, for instance, want our compostable scraps to be
>>> put in
>>> little  bags and placed in the top of our yard waste containers.  Other
>>> cities  want it put in loose.  Others just put all the trash in one
>>> big bin
>>> and  let people (presumably otherwise unemployable) sort it out at the
>>> plant.  They can't even agree on how to properly deal with table scraps.
>>
>> We have to separate out some of our waste.  It's no big deal.  I wish
>> there were some more categories.
>
> It's no problem at all, but what gripes me is that the assholes make
> rules without actually thinking about their implementation or effects.
>
>>> How about increasing the density of our suburbs so that people won't
>>> have
>>> to drive so far to go to work?
>>
>> Really?  You want to live more crowded?
>
> No.  I live in a cheap suburb with 50x150 lots and 1KSF houses.  It's
> now legal to put  4-unit apartment houses in my single-family
> neighborhood as well as "accessory dwelling units? (granny flats),
> thereby increasing the density here as well as in the center of the city
> where bigger and bigger multi-unit buildings are going up.  "Increasing
> the density" is a negative;  I would have thought that was understood.
>
> The State has ordered thus.  Apparently the State can withhold some of
> the sales tax money if the City tells the State to fuck off.  My
> feeling:  we were here first.  Tough luck if you want to live here --
> get in line or move further out and build your own damn city.
>
> But we digress...
>

And you won't even examine the fact that billionaires have been gaming
the system...

David Higton <dave@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:
> In message <ubpa8b$jn7n$1@dont-email.me>
> The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
> > How about having to convert our economical gas-fired homes to
> > all-electric. Some of us don't actually need to heat our houses. We
> > don't do a lot of cooking. We shower at the gym. But we are really
> > pissed that we just bought a $1K gas stove which we expected to be buried
> > in.
>
> You won't be forced to convert to all-electric before you're ready to
> do so. Legislation is not retroactive. New builds will have to be
> all-electric, yes, but that doesn't affect you.

FYI, 'here' (The Netherlands) we *will* be forced, not (yet) to
all-electric, but to mostly-electric, especially for heating. Many
(most?) people can't buy a new gas-heater (for the central heating
system) from 2030. Luckily we still can, because we live in an
appartment building and there's just no room for electric heat pumps.

And there's talk about shutting off gas completely in lots of places,
so for those folks, it *is* all-electric, never mind the consequences/
cost.

[...]

> Again, you won't have to get rid of it until you're ready to do so.
> But people who hang on to petrol-powered museum pieces may start to
> find it difficult to buy petrol, as less of it gets used.

(*Not* directed at you): It would be nice if the proponents of EVs,
all-electric, etc.. would be more open, realistic, etc. about the
pollution (all different kinds) and other problems associated with them,
instead of sort of implying there's none.

Meanwhile, we take the sensible approach and limit our use of
resources, waste, mainly use public transport, etc., etc..

[...]

On 8/20/23 3:36 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

> (*Not* directed at you): It would be nice if the proponents of EVs,
> all-electric, etc.. would be more open, realistic, etc. about the
> pollution (all different kinds) and other problems associated with them,
> instead of sort of implying there's none.
>
> Meanwhile, we take the sensible approach and limit our use of
> resources, waste, mainly use public transport, etc., etc..

There's always a balance among convenience, economy and virtue :-)

Do you feel that your government was a lot better perhaps 100 years ago?
Were people smarter? Did they have better intentions? I feel that
pretty much everything has gone downhill in the US during my lifetime
and that my mom's generation (she was born in 1917) perhaps had the
absolute best of everything? We have better technology now, of course,
but were lives really so lacking before?

I'm talking about first-world civilizations here, not the hellholes from
which most of our immigrants are coming.

BTW, I watched A Soldier of Orange a long time ago and marveled that
Dutch sounded exactly like English (pronunciation, intonation, etc.) but
with different words. Is the converse true?

--
Cheers, Bev
"I can't stand this proliferation of paperwork. It's useless to
fight the forms. You've got to kill the people producing them."
-- Vladimir Kabaidze

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]

> BTW, I watched A Soldier of Orange a long time ago and marveled that
> Dutch sounded exactly like English (pronunciation, intonation, etc.) but
> with different words. Is the converse true?

I can't really judge. I don't think so, but I don't know for sure. Too
much (very) long time experience in English to be unbiased.

Probably the same thing we have with Scandinavian languages. Native
English speaking people often think they're quite like Dutch, but we -
or at least I - can not make head or tails from them. It's all Greek to
me! :-)

In message <ubrh6m$11k2b$1@dont-email.me>
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

> On 2023-08-19 14:54, David Higton wrote:
> > In message <ubrbo6$10q4j$1@dont-email.me>
> > Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On 2023-08-19 14:11, David Higton wrote:
> > > > In message <ubojpe$ch7s$5@dont-email.me>
> > > > Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Change the radio stations and control the volume.
> > > >
> > > > In my EV, the volume controls are on the steering wheel as well as
> > > > the centre console (dedicated buttons there, not the touch screen).
> > > >
> > > > I can change stations by voice control.
> > >
> > > None of which changes the fact that controls on a touchscreen are a
> > > terrible idea.
> >
> > Not so. There are plenty of uses for a touchscreen that you'd do while
> > not driving.
>
> Really?
>
> Such as?

The first things that spring to mind are setting up navigation to your
destination (when the voice control doesn't recognise what you're trying
to say - we all know that there's no such thing yet as voice recognition
that gets it right all the time and knows all possible destinations) and
telling it which parking spot to park itself in, which /must/ be done
when the vehicle is stationary.

Realistically, an EV has so many features that it isn't possible to
control them any other way.

David

In message <ubrelu$11avf$1@dont-email.me>
The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:

> Tell me more about this pollution of which you speak.

Nitrogen dioxide. Highly irritant to lungs. When air is heated to the
temperatures generated by combustion, it's absolutely inevitable that
some will be produced.

> I find it interesting that only recently has the poisonous nature of
> natural gas been discovered.

It's more realistic to look at it from a slightly different angle: the
presence of nitrogen dioxide in the products of combustion has been known
for a long time, but the discovery of just how damaging it is (from
chronic low-level exposure) is more recent.

As for the rest of what you wrote: clearly our views differ.

It's also interesting to note that the UK has a large and growing
problem with pollution from burning wood to heat homes. We now have
the bizarre situation that more particulates are generated by burning
wood than by burning petrol or diesel fuel. Burning wood also makes
nitrogen dioxide, of course. Reasonable people are suggesting that
sales of new wood burning stoves should be banned - a view I support.

But there is no credible plan anywhere in the world, as far as I know,
to ban existing polluting cars, boilers, stoves, etc. As they break,
wear out, or fall out of favour with their owners, they will be replaced
by new less-polluting technologies. That's the entirely reasonable way
we will reduce the burden of pollution on humanity and the planet.

I've made my start.

When my boiler wears out, maybe 12 to 15 years from now, it will be
replaced by a heat pump. Maybe sooner.

I find it interesting to ponder what improvements are made by a small
number of big decisions by governments, and what are made by millions
and billions of individual decisions - each infinitesimal in the grand
scheme of things, but which together add up to a tangible improvement.

David

On 2023-08-20 14:09, David Higton wrote:
> In message <ubrh6m$11k2b$1@dont-email.me>
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-08-19 14:54, David Higton wrote:
>>> In message <ubrbo6$10q4j$1@dont-email.me>
>>> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2023-08-19 14:11, David Higton wrote:
>>>>> In message <ubojpe$ch7s$5@dont-email.me>
>>>>> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Change the radio stations and control the volume.
>>>>>
>>>>> In my EV, the volume controls are on the steering wheel as well as
>>>>> the centre console (dedicated buttons there, not the touch screen).
>>>>>
>>>>> I can change stations by voice control.
>>>>
>>>> None of which changes the fact that controls on a touchscreen are a
>>>> terrible idea.
>>>
>>> Not so. There are plenty of uses for a touchscreen that you'd do while
>>> not driving.
>>
>> Really?
>>
>> Such as?
>
> The first things that spring to mind are setting up navigation to your
> destination (when the voice control doesn't recognise what you're trying
> to say - we all know that there's no such thing yet as voice recognition
> that gets it right all the time and knows all possible destinations) and
> telling it which parking spot to park itself in, which /must/ be done
> when the vehicle is stationary.
>
> Realistically, an EV has so many features that it isn't possible to
> control them any other way.

Sorry, but that's basically working around the limitation that you
shouldn't do so while driving.

"Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote in message
news:ubo88t$b55s$1@dont-email.me...
> On 2023-08-18 05:25, Scout wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote in message
>> news:ublrfn$3sqta$1@dont-email.me...
>>> On 2023-08-17 10:27, Scout wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:ublg3p$3r264$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>> On 2023-08-17 06:50, Scout wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "JAB" <here@is.invalid> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:ubjdkg$3ehlm$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>> On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 14:55:02 -0400, News <News@Group.Name> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At the article's hoped-for price point of $1500
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your wet behind the ears....$500.00
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Btw, typical person can use 110 volt charger, and if needed, use a
>>>>>>> commerical charger.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 14,781 miles per year = 40 miles/day
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Great.. and if your are one the 50% who drive more than that, I guess
>>>>>> you're just shit outta luck...
>>>>>
>>>>> Or you use a plug-in 240/220 charger after having an electrician
>>>>> install one...
>>>>
>>>> Great.. and if you don't don't have the money or the permission to do
>>>> so.. I guess you're just SOL.
>>>
>>> 1. It's not very expensive to have a plain-old 240/220 volt outlet
>>> installed. Sorry, but it's basic electric work.
>>>
>>> 2. Getting permission to do so isn't hard.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> That is even assuming you have a garage to install one in. Yea, I want
>>>> to see how well that charger works when you install it for your
>>>> on-street parking and someone starts using YOUR power to charge THEIR
>>>> car, or simply blocks you from parking there.
>>>
>>> I never claimed it was an answer for everyone, but it's an answer for
>>> many people.
>>
>> It's not even an answer for many people. It's really only an answer for a
>> very small minority of people.
>
> How do you make that calculation?
>
> What percentage of the US lives in single family homes?

67%

However.. once you eliminate those that are rentals or lease, don't have a
garage, or owned by people who can't afford an EV and the great expense of
installing a high capacity EV charger. that number will go down quite a bit.

Then you have to consider the multicar households.. How do you charge 2 cars
in a single car garage without a lot of extra headache?

Or do you set up 2 chargers and risk overloading the main service?

>>> And you want to pretend that because it won't work for everyone, it's
>>> useless.
>>
>> No, I'm saying that for the overwhelming majority of people it wont serve
>> their needs nearly as well as an ordinary ICE.
>
> LOL!
>
> Now it's a "overwhelming majority"!

yes... it is. If you look at car sales the overwhelming majority are still
ICE.

>> Cost for one. I mean how many people can afford a brand new luxury priced
>> car without wrecking their finances?
>>
>> I mean heck, they can't afford to pay student loans or rent.. but they
>> can get a new luxury car?
>
> By what I see on the streets each day, LOTS of people can afford to buy
> what you term a "luxury" car.

A few people can, but I see maybe 1% ev, if that.

Which I don't mind at all. What I mind is the fact that you want to FORCE
people into a cookie cutter solution because YOU think you know what they
need.

I'm all in favor of letting the market work. No tax breaks, no incentives,
no subsidies, no government aid. If the EV manufacturers want to offer these
things, fine, but public money shouldn't be involved.

Instead we have people like you ruling from on-high what the people MUST do
because you somehow thing you know more about their lives than they do.

"Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote in message
news:ubo8d9$b55s$2@dont-email.me...
> On 2023-08-18 05:28, Scout wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote in message
>> news:ubls5c$3sqta$6@dont-email.me...
>>> On 2023-08-17 11:22, Governor Swill wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 17 Aug 2023 08:58:49 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2023-08-17 06:50, Scout wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "JAB" <here@is.invalid> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:ubjdkg$3ehlm$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>> On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 14:55:02 -0400, News <News@Group.Name> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At the article's hoped-for price point of $1500
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your wet behind the ears....$500.00
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Btw, typical person can use 110 volt charger, and if needed, use a
>>>>>>> commerical charger.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 14,781 miles per year = 40 miles/day
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Great.. and if your are one the 50% who drive more than that, I guess
>>>>>> you're just shit outta luck...
>>>>>
>>>>> Or you use a plug-in 240/220 charger after having an electrician
>>>>> install
>>>>> one...
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't even have to go through your panel. Have the electrician
>>>> connect between your
>>>> meter and the wall, run conduit to wherever (save time and money - pre
>>>> dig the conduit
>>>> ditch), install a home dryer/stove 220. As long as it's protected from
>>>> rain, all is good.
>>>
>>> I think some of that would depend on local electrical codes, but
>>> perhaps.
>>
>> While local electrical codes may offer some slight variances..
>> overwhelmingly they are solidly based on the NEC and is generally the
>> basis of any discussion of electrical installation and general cost
>> estimates where the specific particulars are unknown.. such as a
>> conversation in usenet about installing a high draw EV charger.
>
> Post this again when you sober up.

While local electrical codes may offer some slight variances..
overwhelmingly they are solidly based on the NEC and is generally the
basis of any discussion of electrical installation and general cost
estimates where the specific particulars are unknown.. such as a
conversation in usenet about installing a high draw EV charger.

Ok, what has changed?

> The simple fact is that there are high draw EV chargers that can be
> plugged in to the same KIND of receptacle as an electric stove or electric
> clothes dryer.

Sure... if you want to run a cord through the house and out to where it's
needed, and you don't mind having to go behind the stove or drier to plug
and unplug things each time you need to switch.

> The costs to install such a receptacle are readily available and I'm
> sorry, but it is NOT NEAR the numbers you've been bullshitting.

Sure, and when you stop looking at the costs for homes under construction,
then you might have a clear idea of just how expensive that will be to do.

Free hint: It's very easy to add such things to a home while it is being
constructed.. It's a LOT harder to do with it's a completed occupied home
with some unknown electrical system that might never have been designed for
that much draw much less whether the main electrical panel will even support
adding such a line.

Instead, you just wave your hands in the air and tell people to "do it". as
if that will somehow alter the reality.

Hell, you don’t even know the NEC requirements, but somehow you think you're
qualified to know how much it will cost to add to an existing system.

Yes, you produced numbers but unless you're talking a home still in the
early stages of construction.. those numbers don't mean shit.

In fact, I bet most of those numbers predate the sharp increase in wiring
costs. 50 feet of 6/3 is now selling for about $250-$300

But if you go with in it bulk say from an electrical contractor you could
get it for maybe $200 assuming no markup from the contractor.

HOW much did you say it would cost again?

https://www.homedepot.com/b/Electrical-Wire-Building-Wires/6/N-5yc1vZc57aZ1z0qyv2

You have a furnished home.. you will have to move things away from the wall
in question. Punch holes in the dry wall to gain access, route the cable,
repair the drywall, repaint, clean and put everything back, while dealing
with the occupants.

Hell, the installation cost of a hot water heater is more than what you
cited and it's just a simple swap.

No, sir, you MIGHT be able to get those prices during construction but in an
occupied house.. not a chance in hell.

"Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote in message
news:ubo8mo$b55s$4@dont-email.me...
> On 2023-08-18 06:15, Scout wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote in message
>> news:ublroe$3sqta$2@dont-email.me...
>>> On 2023-08-17 10:29, Scout wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:ublg5a$3r264$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>> On 2023-08-17 06:57, Scout wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:ubjet1$3emc8$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>> On 2023-08-16 14:16, News wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/16/2023 5:04 PM, JAB wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 14:55:02 -0400, News <News@Group.Name> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> At the article's hoped-for price point of $1500
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Your wet behind the ears....$500.00
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Btw, typical person can use 110 volt charger, and if needed, use a
>>>>>>>>> commerical charger.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 14,781 miles per year = 40 miles/day
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sure, sparky. Go for it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And if you need more:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a39917614/best-home-ev-chargers-tested/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Level 2 chargers there from $400.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://shop.emporiaenergy.com/collections/ev-chargers/products/smart-home-ev-charger-ul-listed>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Up to 40A charging on just a 220/240V plug.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sure, $10,000 later we've got that installed.
>>>>>
>>>>> LOLOLOLLOLOLOLOL!
>>>>>
>>>>> $10,000?
>>>>>
>>>>> To have the same plug you'd use for an electric stove installed?
>>>>>
>>>>> LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
>>>>
>>>> Great, I'm sure your wife will be just thrilled as you move those range
>>>> out into the middle of the floor so you can unhook it to hook in the
>>>> cable going to your charger and then run that cable through the house,
>>>> and let's not forget you will be unable to close the door or window
>>>> you're going to feed that cable through. Then in the morning, you get
>>>> to get up early and put it all back, or it's going to be a cold
>>>> breakfast because the range isn't hooked up.
>>>>
>>>> Any other stupidity you would like to display?
>>>
>>> What makes you think that because it's the same TYPE of plug you'd use
>>> for a stove, that I'm suggesting you use the same physcal OUTLET for
>>> both purposes?
>>
>> To do otherwise would violate the NEC 210.23 the only exception would be
>> to unplug one appliance to plug in another NEC 210.23C
>
> Are you suggesting a house can't have more than one outlet of the type
> necessary to plug in an electric stove?

No, but EACH one will require an INDIVIDUAL cable be run to the breaker box.

So if you want to install a new outlet as you suggest.. you have to run a
NEW line for it. You can NOT tap into an existing line. It's Code violation.

>>> I'm pointing out that this is basic wiring that any competent
>>> electrician can complete.
>>
>> If they were competent they would turn you down flat.
>
> Why?

See below

>>> It doesn't require special skills or special permits.
>>
>> No, just risking their license and a boat load of liability.
>>

Crickets

>>
>>> 'Wiring a 220/240 volt outlet for an electric clothes dryer or range [or
>>> a Level 2 EV charger] is not really any harder than wiring a standard
>>> outlet, but it can cost more because the electrician may need to run
>>> conduit, reorganize circuit breakers in the main panel, or install a new
>>> circuit breaker. The electrician will price his work according to the
>>> length of cable that needs to be run and the amount of labor time he
>>> anticipates.
>>>
>>> Average costs for a journeyman electrician to install a 220/240-volt
>>> outlet is about $300.'
>>>
>>> <https://www.thespruce.com/electrical-project-costs-1152463>
>>
>> A low power outlet or switch is a far different thing than a high powered
>> load run to the other end of the house.
>
> That is specifically talking about a high-powered load run.

Nope.. light switch or 15amp outlet which can be typically tied into an
existing lighting or outlet circuit in the immediate are.

What you are talking about requires a run ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE BREAKER
BOX... that is significantly different.

Further I would note that such an installation would NOT be suitable for a
long term high draw system such as a level one charger. Unless you like the
breaker tripping all the time.

> Sober up.

Totally sober, maybe you should smarten up and try to actually find out what
you're talking about.

>> See what you're talking about could be done simply by patching any to any
>> accessible branch or lighting circuit in the area.
>
> I'm not talking about patching into an accessible branch or lighting
> circuit

But your source is, whether you know it or not.

See, this is the whole problem.. the people like you are pushing this thing,
even though you have absolutely NO clue of what it will actually involve..
yet you think you know enough to force it on everyone else.

>> What you want, however is going to require a run ALL THE WAY TO THE MAIN
>> BREAKER BOX WITH A HEAVY GAUGE CABLE.
>
> Which is precisely what was being discussed in my quote.

No, it's not.

"fishing new cable to a power source,"

What that means is finding a local lighting or branch circuit you can tap
into.. NOT necessarily running a line back to the breaker box.

>> Apples and Oranges.
>
> Sober up.

Educate yourself.

>>> 'The cost to run electricity to a shed, garage, or shop is $10 to $25
>>> per linear foot or $500 to $3,800 on average for 50 to 150 feet of
>>> underground line.'
>>>
>>> <https://homeguide.com/costs/cost-to-run-electric-to-garage-shed-or-shop>
>>
>> Again.. a low power feeder hooked into an accessible 15-20a branch
>> circuit.
>
> Nope. Were do you get this straw man from?

Because it doesn't factor in the cost of the home run, nor does it factor in
a high capacity load.

That is merely the cost to run the wire from the house to the shed.. does
NOTHING for hooking it up or doing any electrical work inside the shed.

If you looked further down you would see

>>> So your numbers are bullshit.
>>
>> No, my number are reality. Now if you want to install a 120V 5amp
>> charger.. that could be done for the prices you're talking about.
>> Anything more than that.. and your price is going to go up.. a lot.
>
> Why?

Because that's all you could add to an existing lighting or branch circuit
without excessive nuisance trips.

> My examples specifically talk about installing a circuit and receptacle of
> the kind necessary to carry the loads under discussion.

Oh, ok.. then let's run the numbers from your site.

"An electric car charging station costs $750 to $2,600, including a Level 2
charger, 240V outlet, wiring, and wall mounting."

"Main panel size – Homes with less than 200-amp service typically require an
upgrade to run electricity to a shed or garage.
The cost to replace an electrical panel is $1,400 to $2,800 to upgrade from
a 100-amp to a 200-amp panel."

"Labor – Hiring an electrician costs $50 to $130 per hour, plus a $100 to
$200 call-out fee, which typically covers the first hour."

"Materials – The panel's amperage and distance from the shed or garage
determine the wire size needed.
Electrical wiring costs $0.10 to $4.00 per linear foot for the material
alone, depending on the type and gauge."

"Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote in message
news:ubo8rq$b55s$5@dont-email.me...
> On 2023-08-18 06:31, Scout wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote in message
>> news:ublrtv$3sqta$3@dont-email.me...
>>> On 2023-08-17 10:44, Scout wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:ublh72$3r5fh$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>> On 2023-08-17 09:12, News wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/17/2023 11:59 AM, Alan wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2023-08-17 06:57, Scout wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:ubjet1$3emc8$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>> On 2023-08-16 14:16, News wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/16/2023 5:04 PM, JAB wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 14:55:02 -0400, News <News@Group.Name>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> At the article's hoped-for price point of $1500
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Your wet behind the ears....$500.00
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Btw, typical person can use 110 volt charger, and if needed, use
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> commerical charger.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 14,781 miles per year = 40 miles/day
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sure, sparky. Go for it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And if you need more:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a39917614/best-home-ev-chargers-tested/>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Level 2 chargers there from $400.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://shop.emporiaenergy.com/collections/ev-chargers/products/smart-home-ev-charger-ul-listed>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Up to 40A charging on just a 220/240V plug.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sure, $10,000 later we've got that installed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> LOLOLOLLOLOLOLOL!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> $10,000?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To have the same plug you'd use for an electric stove installed?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sure, install the terminal and interconnect and home run AFTER THE
>>>>>> FACT and charge in your kitchen, right, MORON.
>>>>>
>>>>> You get that the same TYPE of outlet can be installed anywhere in a
>>>>> home, right?
>>>>
>>>> Sure, and all you need is deep enough pockets.
>>>>
>>>> Well Alan your 150Amp panel wont support this load given your current
>>>> electrical system, so we're going to have to upgrade to a 200-225 Amp
>>>> panel, then we have to update all the wiring to current code as
>>>> required by the electrical code
>>>
>>> Cite, please!
>>
>> Load calculations.
>
> That's not a cite.
>
>> Builders don't install bigger more expensive power panels unless they
>> have to.. and it's going to be a cost extra. Which means you probably
>> aren't going to have enough extra to add a 240V 50A long term draw to
>> most existing breaker panels. At least not without risking a lot of
>> nuance trips of the main breaker.. which have a pretty short trip life
>> and replacements are expensive.
>
> So you install a second panel just for the new circuit.
>
> Straw man.

That could be possible, but would involve running a second feeder line which
means a utility charge.

Then it wouldn't be allowed on a single residential structure as you must
have a single means of disconnect. You could only do that if you have a
secondary building such as a detached garage or shed. Further that meter
would have it's own bill and all the fixed costs associated with such a bill
whether it used a lot of power or only a little.

So unless you want/have a second building, or a power pole in your yard
(since you can't hang the breaker box on the utilities' pole). In which case
local ordinances and zoning come into play and depending on them may require
a variance which may or may not be granted.

So no, it's not really a straw man.

>>>> Next we will need to tear down parts of your walls to run the cable,
>>>> and correct the wiring as necessary. and then install a subpanel and
>>>> the associated wiring for the charger. We need zoning approval, the
>>>> house can not be occupied between when the work starts as that would be
>>>> illegal with no electrical power and then the government inspectors
>>>> have to approve the work and the power company finally returns to
>>>> restore power once they get all the necessary documents and
>>>> certifications. So you will have to find somewhere else to stay for
>>>> about 1-2 weeks, but it could be as much as 3 weeks and initial
>>>> estimate will be $12K-$20K for job. But we can't even touch the job
>>>> until you get a permit and authorization to have this work performed,
>>>> and perform a full electrical audit to determine the full scope of work
>>>> to be performed which will cost $1,200. At last check the permit
>>>> department has a 4-6 week back log... What? You already sold your old
>>>> car, and you need the charger installed this weekend? Ever consider
>>>> getting a bicycle?
>>>>
>>>> I love these people who think they can just slap in a high demand
>>>> appliance and it will be quick, easy, and cheap to do.
>>>
>>> I think that you have not a single actual fact to back up that pile of
>>> bullshit.
>>
>> Other than having done it.
>
> Prove it.

What sort of proof would you find acceptable?

I drew up and submitted the electrical plans for a friend's home and got
them approved without change. I did the complete wiring of that home to
code, and passed inspection without issue and the comment that it was one of
the better wiring jobs the inspector had ever seen, that he has never had
any issue with that wiring, or that I including capped runs of conduit to
the breaker panel to allow additions to his electrical system including
conduits that run outside so he can easily add external circuits for sheds,
barns or anything else he might require.

No, I don’t have ready access to that paperwork, and even if I did I have no
interest in sharing it with some ignorant idiot.

I've done it. You've merely looked at a few articles on the internet.

>>>>>> Who cooks with electricity anyway, except you, DOLT.
>>>>>
>>>>> How is this even relevant?
>>>>
>>>> If you don't have an electric stove.. then you don't have the high
>>>> capacity plug there to use.... even if you could.
>>>
>>> How stupid are you to think I'm suggesting you would use THAT PARTICULAR
>>> PLUG?
>>
>> because otherwise you would be in violation of the NEC.
>>
>> I mean you did claim to be a competent electrician right?
>
> Nope.

Then maybe you should STFU until you at least know something about the
subject?

> How would having a second receptacle of the TYPE used for a stove or dryer
> violate the NEC?

Because it's not allowed on any circuit over 20A.

"Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote in message
news:ubojbb$ch7s$4@dont-email.me...
> On 2023-08-18 11:31, Governor Swill wrote:
>>>>> ...assuming that the basement even has a ceiling.
>>>>>
>>>>>> No occupants? No need worry about dust, dirt or noise?
>>>>> For a day or two's work? Nope.
>>>> Assuming you don't need a panel upgrade.
>>> You think adding a pony panel is going to create a lot of "dust, dirt or
>>> noise"?
>>>
>>> LOL!
>> The really funny bit is the fool thinks replacing a service panel is a
>> two day job.
>> ROTFLMAO!
>>
>
> Not just a two day job.
>
> His actual words were "days on end"...

two days...

So you agree with me

"Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote in message
news:uboj3t$ch7s$3@dont-email.me...
> On 2023-08-18 11:16, Governor Swill wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 08:43:25 -0500, "Scout"
>> <me4guns@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote in message
>>> news:ubls3p$3sqta$5@dont-email.me...
>>>> On 2023-08-17 10:52, Scout wrote:
>>
>>>>> Then there are high finance charges, insurance costs, You're already
>>>>> looking at your 2nd set of tires at 3 times the cost of standard.
>>>>
>>>> Cite, please!
>>>
>>> https://www.pcmag.com/news/the-unexpected-problem-with-evs-they-tire-quickly
>>>
>>> You know, you should really consider finding out this shit for yourself
>>> before promoting the latest geewhiz tech
>>>
>>> Further requests will be ignored.
>>>
>>
>> And where are your bullshit cites for insurance and finance charges?
>>
>> BWAAAAAAAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!
>>
>> The reason they go through tires faster is that owners are so taken with
>> the stunning
>> acceleration of even cheap BEVs that they're constantly doing jack rabbit
>> starts and
>> slamming on the brakes. This has been recognized as an issue with first
>> time EV owners.
>> Early Tesla users broke transmissions regularly because of this.
>
> Be fair:
>
> EVs do tend to be heavier than IC cars of the same size.
>
> The difference may not be as large as some of our trolls would insist...
>
> ...but taking out the IC drivetrain and putting in one of electric motors
> and a large battery pack does add weight.

The average weight of an ICE car is 3000#, the average weight of an EV is
over 5000#

which means when we have enough... existing parking garages will have to cut
the amount of parking by about 45% since the structure wasn't designed for
that much weight.

Going to do wonders for trying to find parking in an urban environment.

But that's ok, because the extra space between cars will help reduce the
spread of fire when your EV decides it's done and the battery pack starts
burning.

"Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote in message
news:ubr2vh$viq6$4@dont-email.me...
> On 2023-08-19 04:23, Governor Swill wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 21:27:51 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2023-08-18 21:10, Governor Swill wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 13:08:28 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2023-08-18 11:16, Governor Swill wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 08:43:25 -0500, "Scout"
>>>>>> <me4guns@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:ubls3p$3sqta$5@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>> On 2023-08-17 10:52, Scout wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Then there are high finance charges, insurance costs, You're
>>>>>>>>> already
>>>>>>>>> looking at your 2nd set of tires at 3 times the cost of standard.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cite, please!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.pcmag.com/news/the-unexpected-problem-with-evs-they-tire-quickly
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You know, you should really consider finding out this shit for
>>>>>>> yourself
>>>>>>> before promoting the latest geewhiz tech
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Further requests will be ignored.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And where are your bullshit cites for insurance and finance charges?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BWAAAAAAAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The reason they go through tires faster is that owners are so taken
>>>>>> with the stunning
>>>>>> acceleration of even cheap BEVs that they're constantly doing jack
>>>>>> rabbit starts and
>>>>>> slamming on the brakes. This has been recognized as an issue with
>>>>>> first time EV owners.
>>>>>> Early Tesla users broke transmissions regularly because of this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Be fair:
>>>>>
>>>>> EVs do tend to be heavier than IC cars of the same size.
>>>>>
>>>>> The difference may not be as large as some of our trolls would
>>>>> insist...
>>>>>
>>>>> ...but taking out the IC drivetrain and putting in one of electric
>>>>> motors and a large battery pack does add weight.
>>>>
>>>> But they are stunningly quicker. 0-60 in under 4 seconds is not rare.
>>>>
>>>> I like the Rivian architecture. Each wheel has it's own motor. The
>>>> ultimate 4 wheel
>>>> drive!
>>>
>>> None of that has anything to refute that heavier vehicles use up tires
>>> more quickly.
>>>
>>> Seriously: don't argue against things that are obviously true.
>>
>> Wtf is your damage today, Alan? I'm not arguing for or against
>> anything. I'm noting
>> that I like Rivian's architecture.
>
> You deflected away from the simple fact that one of the reasons EVs wear
> tires more quickly is that--everything else being equal--they weigh MORE.

And the ultra low rolling resistance tires wear faster... and cost quite a
bit more.

In message <ubu2oi$1i93l$3@dont-email.me>
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

> On 2023-08-20 14:09, David Higton wrote:
> > In message <ubrh6m$11k2b$1@dont-email.me>
> > Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On 2023-08-19 14:54, David Higton wrote:
> > > > In message <ubrbo6$10q4j$1@dont-email.me>
> > > > Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On 2023-08-19 14:11, David Higton wrote:
> > > > > > In message <ubojpe$ch7s$5@dont-email.me>
> > > > > > Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Change the radio stations and control the volume.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In my EV, the volume controls are on the steering wheel as well
> > > > > > as the centre console (dedicated buttons there, not the touch
> > > > > > screen).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I can change stations by voice control.
> > > > >
> > > > > None of which changes the fact that controls on a touchscreen are a
> > > > > terrible idea.
> > > >
> > > > Not so. There are plenty of uses for a touchscreen that you'd do
> > > > while not driving.
> > >
> > > Really?
> > >
> > > Such as?
> >
> > The first things that spring to mind are setting up navigation to your
> > destination (when the voice control doesn't recognise what you're trying
> > to say - we all know that there's no such thing yet as voice recognition
> > that gets it right all the time and knows all possible destinations) and
> > telling it which parking spot to park itself in, which /must/ be done
> > when the vehicle is stationary.
> >
> > Realistically, an EV has so many features that it isn't possible to
> > control them any other way.
>
> Sorry, but that's basically working around the limitation that you
> shouldn't do so while driving.

Are you changing the basis of your argument? Above, you said:

> None of which changes the fact that controls on a touchscreen are a
> terrible idea.

They are a good idea, in fact they are indispensable to a modern car
with so many features. It would be a terrible idea to use them while
driving, I agree, but the features controlled by the touch screen do
not need to be altered while driving. So, no problem.

David

In message <uc02lv$1vh3k$13@dont-email.me>
"Scout" <me4guns@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote:

> No, sir, you MIGHT be able to get those prices during construction but in
> an occupied house.. not a chance in hell.

My house was built in 1970 (in England). I had a charge point installed
a little over a year ago. It cost me something in the region of �700,
which I thought was expensive, but was done by a company recommended by
the main dealer that sold me the car. It's 240 volts, 32 amps, giving
me a charge rate of about 7.4 kW. The house has a 100 amp feed at 240
volts, which is typical for a house of average size in this country.

Perhaps the problems you're describing are peculiar to American house
building and wiring practice.

You certainly can't blame an electric car for that.

David

On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 10:06:36 -0500, "Scout" <me4guns@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net>
wrote:

>
>
>"Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote in message
>news:ubr2vh$viq6$4@dont-email.me...
>> On 2023-08-19 04:23, Governor Swill wrote:
>>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 21:27:51 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2023-08-18 21:10, Governor Swill wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 13:08:28 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2023-08-18 11:16, Governor Swill wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 08:43:25 -0500, "Scout"
>>>>>>> <me4guns@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:ubls3p$3sqta$5@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>> On 2023-08-17 10:52, Scout wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Then there are high finance charges, insurance costs, You're
>>>>>>>>>> already
>>>>>>>>>> looking at your 2nd set of tires at 3 times the cost of standard.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cite, please!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.pcmag.com/news/the-unexpected-problem-with-evs-they-tire-quickly
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You know, you should really consider finding out this shit for
>>>>>>>> yourself
>>>>>>>> before promoting the latest geewhiz tech
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Further requests will be ignored.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And where are your bullshit cites for insurance and finance charges?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BWAAAAAAAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The reason they go through tires faster is that owners are so taken
>>>>>>> with the stunning
>>>>>>> acceleration of even cheap BEVs that they're constantly doing jack
>>>>>>> rabbit starts and
>>>>>>> slamming on the brakes. This has been recognized as an issue with
>>>>>>> first time EV owners.
>>>>>>> Early Tesla users broke transmissions regularly because of this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Be fair:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> EVs do tend to be heavier than IC cars of the same size.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The difference may not be as large as some of our trolls would
>>>>>> insist...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ...but taking out the IC drivetrain and putting in one of electric
>>>>>> motors and a large battery pack does add weight.
>>>>>
>>>>> But they are stunningly quicker. 0-60 in under 4 seconds is not rare.
>>>>>
>>>>> I like the Rivian architecture. Each wheel has it's own motor. The
>>>>> ultimate 4 wheel
>>>>> drive!
>>>>
>>>> None of that has anything to refute that heavier vehicles use up tires
>>>> more quickly.
>>>>
>>>> Seriously: don't argue against things that are obviously true.
>>>
>>> Wtf is your damage today, Alan? I'm not arguing for or against
>>> anything. I'm noting that I like Rivian's architecture.
>>
>> You deflected away from the simple fact that one of the reasons EVs wear
>> tires more quickly is that--everything else being equal--they weigh MORE.
>
>And the ultra low rolling resistance tires wear faster... and cost quite a
>bit more.

Actually they wear longer being made out of stiffer compounds to help achieve that rolling
ease. Easy rollers are notorious for being a poor choice for handling on ICE cars because
they simply aren't sticky enough. The reason BEVs handle as well as they do is because
the heavy batteries dramatically lower the center of gravity and without a heavy engine at
one end or the other, can achieve perfect 50/50 f/r weight distribution. Factor in modern
traction management systems, and BEVs usually handle better than an equivalent ICE. This
gives sports car level handling with a big sedan comfortable ride. This better handling
helps contribute to safety as it makes it easier to maintain control over the vehicle.

The higher pressures require a stronger, therefore more massive, tire. Thicker walls,
heavier belts, etc..

Swill
--
"We are dealing with a lawless President who has no allegiance to our Constitution
or values. Trump is igniting a fire of violence. He is sowing division. Trump is
involved in massive and constant abuse of power. His every instinct is extortionist.
How can Republican Senators abide by his thuggish behavior? We have never encountered
such a terrible man in the Presidency." - General Barry McCaffrey
Retired U.S. Army General

GO TRUMP! Go farther! Farther! I CAN STILL HEAR YOU!

Heroyam slava! Glory to the Heroes!

Sláva Ukrajíni! Glory to Ukraine!

Putin tse prezervatyv! Putin is a condom!

Go here to donate to Ukrainian relief.
<https://www2.deloitte.com/ua/uk/pages/registration-forms/help-cities.html>

On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 10:04:54 -0500, "Scout" wrote:
>"Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote
>> On 2023-08-18 11:16, Governor Swill wrote:
>>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 08:43:25 -0500, "Scout" wrote:
>>>> "Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote
>>>>> On 2023-08-17 10:52, Scout wrote:
>>>>>> Then there are high finance charges, insurance costs, You're already
>>>>>> looking at your 2nd set of tires at 3 times the cost of standard.

>>>>> Cite, please!

>>>> https://www.pcmag.com/news/the-unexpected-problem-with-evs-they-tire-quickly
>>>> You know, you should really consider finding out this shit for yourself
>>>> before promoting the latest geewhiz tech
>>>> Further requests will be ignored.

>>> And where are your bullshit cites for insurance and finance charges?
>>>
>>> BWAAAAAAAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!
>>>
>>> The reason they go through tires faster is that owners are so taken with
>>> the stunning acceleration of even cheap BEVs that they're constantly doing jack rabbit
>>> starts and slamming on the brakes. This has been recognized as an issue with first
>>> time EV owners. Early Tesla users broke transmissions regularly because of this.
>>
>> Be fair:
>>
>> EVs do tend to be heavier than IC cars of the same size.
>>
>> The difference may not be as large as some of our trolls would insist...
>>
>> ...but taking out the IC drivetrain and putting in one of electric motors
>> and a large battery pack does add weight.
>
>The average weight of an ICE car is 3000#, the average weight of an EV is
>over 5000#
>
>which means when we have enough... existing parking garages will have to cut
>the amount of parking by about 45% since the structure wasn't designed for
>that much weight.

If you're working in such an extremely dense environment as a downtown full of
skyscrapers, use public transportation from your home's nearest park/ride. Parking in
your local metro park/ride is cheaper than paying for parking downtown anyway. Fuel not
expended, lower insurance costs, less wear and tear to spend money on, your tires will
last forever, the car will have a quarter the miles it would otherwise have had when trade
in time comes . . . hell, cars as they're built today will last for many years more if you
train to work and back.

>Going to do wonders for trying to find parking in an urban environment.

Not a problem. Urban environments call for different solutions. What is a city car?
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CityCar>

>But that's ok, because the extra space between cars will help reduce the
>spread of fire when your EV decides it's done and the battery pack starts
>burning.

Your ICE is 13 times more likely to catch fire than your BEV. You've been told this
before. It has been proven through multiple cites. Yet here you are again still
pretending the lie that EVs are dangerously flammable even though ICEs are even MORE
dangerously flammable.

Swill
--
"We are dealing with a lawless President who has no allegiance to our Constitution
or values. Trump is igniting a fire of violence. He is sowing division. Trump is
involved in massive and constant abuse of power. His every instinct is extortionist.
How can Republican Senators abide by his thuggish behavior? We have never encountered
such a terrible man in the Presidency." - General Barry McCaffrey
Retired U.S. Army General

GO TRUMP! Go farther! Farther! I CAN STILL HEAR YOU!

Heroyam slava! Glory to the Heroes!

Sláva Ukrajíni! Glory to Ukraine!

Putin tse prezervatyv! Putin is a condom!

Go here to donate to Ukrainian relief.
<https://www2.deloitte.com/ua/uk/pages/registration-forms/help-cities.html>

On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 10:00:00 -0500, "Scout" <me4guns@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net>
wrote:

>
>
>"Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote in message
>news:ubojbb$ch7s$4@dont-email.me...
>> On 2023-08-18 11:31, Governor Swill wrote:
>>>>>> ...assuming that the basement even has a ceiling.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No occupants? No need worry about dust, dirt or noise?
>>>>>> For a day or two's work? Nope.
>>>>> Assuming you don't need a panel upgrade.
>>>> You think adding a pony panel is going to create a lot of "dust, dirt or
>>>> noise"?
>>>>
>>>> LOL!
>>> The really funny bit is the fool thinks replacing a service panel is a
>>> two day job.
>>> ROTFLMAO!
>>>
>>
>> Not just a two day job.
>>
>> His actual words were "days on end"...
>
>two days...
>
>So you agree with me
>

No, not really.

Swill
--
"We are dealing with a lawless President who has no allegiance to our Constitution
or values. Trump is igniting a fire of violence. He is sowing division. Trump is
involved in massive and constant abuse of power. His every instinct is extortionist.
How can Republican Senators abide by his thuggish behavior? We have never encountered
such a terrible man in the Presidency." - General Barry McCaffrey
Retired U.S. Army General

GO TRUMP! Go farther! Farther! I CAN STILL HEAR YOU!

Heroyam slava! Glory to the Heroes!

Sláva Ukrajíni! Glory to Ukraine!

Putin tse prezervatyv! Putin is a condom!

Go here to donate to Ukrainian relief.
<https://www2.deloitte.com/ua/uk/pages/registration-forms/help-cities.html>

On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 09:56:56 -0500, "Scout" wrote:

>That could be possible, but would involve running a second feeder line which
>means a utility charge.

They drop power to *their* meter on the side of *my* house and measure how much power I'm
pulling through it.

Where the wires on MY side of the meter go to is none of the power company's business.
They supply me with power, period.

Swill
--
"We are dealing with a lawless President who has no allegiance to our Constitution
or values. Trump is igniting a fire of violence. He is sowing division. Trump is
involved in massive and constant abuse of power. His every instinct is extortionist.
How can Republican Senators abide by his thuggish behavior? We have never encountered
such a terrible man in the Presidency." - General Barry McCaffrey
Retired U.S. Army General

GO TRUMP! Go farther! Farther! I CAN STILL HEAR YOU!

Heroyam slava! Glory to the Heroes!

Sláva Ukrajíni! Glory to Ukraine!

Putin tse prezervatyv! Putin is a condom!

Go here to donate to Ukrainian relief.
<https://www2.deloitte.com/ua/uk/pages/registration-forms/help-cities.html>

On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 09:32:18 -0500, "Scout" <me4guns@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net>
wrote:

>So if you want to install a new outlet as you suggest.. you have to run a
>NEW line for it.

Why?

>You can NOT tap into an existing line.

I gotta pay some fee to install a ceiling fan in the kids' bedroom?

>It's Code violation.

Violate this.

Swill
--
"Eventually he turns on everyone, and soon it will be you and then the entire country."
- Anthony Scaramucci

GO TRUMP! Go farther! Farther! I CAN STILL HEAR YOU . . .

Heroyam slava! Glory to the Heroes!

Sláva Ukrajíni! Glory to Ukraine!

Putin tse prezervatyv! Putin is a condom!

Go here to donate to Ukrainian relief.
<https://www2.deloitte.com/ua/uk/pages/registration-forms/help-cities.html>

On 2023-08-21 06:09, Scout wrote:
>
>
> "Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote in message
> news:ubo88t$b55s$1@dont-email.me...
>> On 2023-08-18 05:25, Scout wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote in message
>>> news:ublrfn$3sqta$1@dont-email.me...
>>>> On 2023-08-17 10:27, Scout wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:ublg3p$3r264$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>> On 2023-08-17 06:50, Scout wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "JAB" <here@is.invalid> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:ubjdkg$3ehlm$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 14:55:02 -0400, News <News@Group.Name> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> At the article's hoped-for price point of $1500
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your wet behind the ears....$500.00
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Btw, typical person can use 110 volt charger, and if needed, use a
>>>>>>>> commerical charger.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 14,781 miles per year = 40 miles/day
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Great.. and if your are one the 50% who drive more than that, I
>>>>>>> guess you're just shit outta luck...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or you use a plug-in 240/220 charger after having an electrician
>>>>>> install one...
>>>>>
>>>>> Great.. and if you don't don't have the money or the permission to
>>>>> do so.. I guess you're just SOL.
>>>>
>>>> 1. It's not very expensive to have a plain-old 240/220 volt outlet
>>>> installed. Sorry, but it's basic electric work.
>>>>
>>>> 2. Getting permission to do so isn't hard.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That is even assuming you have a garage to install one in. Yea, I
>>>>> want to see how well that charger works when you install it for
>>>>> your on-street parking and someone starts using YOUR power to
>>>>> charge THEIR car, or simply blocks you from parking there.
>>>>
>>>> I never claimed it was an answer for everyone, but it's an answer
>>>> for many people.
>>>
>>> It's not even an answer for many people. It's really only an answer
>>> for a very small minority of people.
>>
>> How do you make that calculation?
>>
>> What percentage of the US lives in single family homes?
>
> 67%
>
> However.. once you eliminate those that are rentals or lease, don't have
> a garage, or owned by people who can't afford an EV and the great
> expense of installing a high capacity EV charger. that number will go
> down quite a bit.
>

Why would you automatically eliminate those that are renting, Sunshine?

The expense IS NOT GREAT.

That is simply false.

> Then you have to consider the multicar households.. How do you charge 2
> cars in a single car garage without a lot of extra headache?

Edge cases, Sunshine.

>
> Or do you set up 2 chargers and risk overloading the main service?
>
>>>> And you want to pretend that because it won't work for everyone,
>>>> it's useless.
>>>
>>> No, I'm saying that for the overwhelming majority of people it wont
>>> serve their needs nearly as well as an ordinary ICE.
>>
>> LOL!
>>
>> Now it's a "overwhelming majority"!
>
> yes... it is. If you look at car sales the overwhelming majority are
> still ICE.

Sorry, but that does not follow logically.

>
>
>>> Cost for one. I mean how many people can afford a brand new luxury
>>> priced car without wrecking their finances?
>>>
>>> I mean heck, they can't afford to pay student loans or rent.. but
>>> they can get a new luxury car?
>>
>> By what I see on the streets each day, LOTS of people can afford to
>> buy what you term a "luxury" car.
>
> A few people can, but I see maybe 1% ev, if that.

So?

>
> Which I don't mind at all. What I mind is the fact that you want to
> FORCE people into a cookie cutter solution because YOU think you know
> what they need.

I don't want to force anyone, Sunshine.

Now you're combining ad hominem and straw man.

>
> I'm all in favor of letting the market work. No tax breaks, no
> incentives, no subsidies, no government aid. If the EV manufacturers
> want to offer these things, fine, but public money shouldn't be involved.
>
> Instead we have people like you ruling from on-high what the people MUST
> do because you somehow thing you know more about their lives than they do.

Ad hominem... ...straw man.