On 4/20/23 4:32 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 20/04/2023 04:06, 26B.X939 wrote:
>> On 4/19/23 5:31 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 19/04/2023 10:21, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> On 2023-04-19 08:28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> On 19/04/2023 05:04, 26B.X939 wrote:
>>>>>> Those who never experienced the CL-only era, only
>>>>>>    Winders/Mac-OS, tend to be afraid of the CL. If
>>>>>>    it's not GUI they just can't/won't do it
>>>>>
>>>>> Back in the day when software writers wrote menu systems for
>>>>> mainframes and minis, productivity was massive, because there was
>>>>> nothing the users could do to break the system.  And if they did,
>>>>> the software authors fixed it.
>>>>
>>>> Now that you mention it... yes, I have worked with a system like
>>>> that. The Lucent (previously AT&T) 5ESSS telephone switch. Terminals
>>>> worked over serial ports. But you could also type the commands
>>>> instead of the menu shortcuts, which were accessed by numbers IIRC
>>>> (another life).
>>>>
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5ESS_Switching_System>
>>>>
>>>> There are no photos of the terminals. Found only a (bad) video:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsYETwzUyCo
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The advent of Windows PCs jumped the per desktop maintenance cost
>>>>> by a factor of ten.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> Back in the day I did quite a lot of work with the likes of SCO Unix,
>>> and various 'minis' running sys V unix wired up to massive serial
>>> cards running up to 70 green screen serial terminals - usually Wyse
>>> 50s as they were reliable and cheap.
>>>
>>> Typically they would be running some office based apps and some kind
>>> of database.
>>>
>>> The people who supplied the systems would have various menu screens
>>> to access them.
>>>
>>> In general one persons part time job was to to insert a tape once a
>>> day, replace paper in the printer and take a backup, and phone the
>>> support team if anything else went wrong.
>>>
>>> And it didn't. Mostly they ran and ran.
>>> Nothing for UserFingerPoken.
>>
>>    But, despite all the hardware/wiring in the olde dayz, note
>>    that the software was relatively SIMPLE by today's standards.
>>    Didn't DO much, so not much could go wrong.
>>
>>    This has changed - indeed even for CL utilities/apps.
>>
>>    We keep wanting systems to Do More,
> No, We Dont.
> We don't want more from a basic word processor then we ever did. 99% of
> users would be happy with Word Perfect or Wordstar.

WordPerfect is GOOD - still have it. However I mostly
use LibreOffice now. WordStar was a bit crude, but
you could still get a lot done fast once you learned
a handful of control keys.

But, hate to say it, the PAYING users seem to like
"beauty" over "function" these days. MS/Apple go
to the bank on that.

> The the 1% would be happy to pay for training.

Not enough money there.

> Most business applications are written to constrain the users to keep
> within particular bounds.  Those bounds are date entry, into forms for
> the most part, and reports. None of these require more than an 80x25
> screen. Indeed one visit to my bank revealed a PC that was logged in as
> an 80x25 screen to a remote mainframe.
> No sign of Windows at all.

There's a fair chance it was running a COBOL program
writ in the 60s/70s. Nobody wants to pay to create
updated versions - so those good old COBOL programs
(a LOT of them for financial purposes) still live.
If you want a high-$$$ "consultant" bit after
retirement, learn COBOL. I can write little COBOL
programs but it really is a cumbersome language.

As for "modern programs" ... I've noticed with my code
over the years that the percentage dedicated to catching
Stupid User Mistakes keeps growing. They never LEARN it,
they just 'cowboy' it. As such I can understand why
modern developers keep dumbing-down their apps, trying
to force users onto a VERY narrow path.

> but that adds layers
>>    and layers of complexity. Evils can lurk in complexity,
>>    undiscovered until .....
>
> The fault lies not with the users.

Um ... yea ... often it does. And no, their employers
won't/can't afford a big training program and the
employees themselves rarely hang around long enough
to learn much of anything. Developers need to understand
this situation. It will NOT be guru's using their products,
but Gen-Z pinheads.

> It lies with two parts of the
> software providers. The marketing team who want to perpetuate
> obsolescence to keep their jobs, and the coders who are happy to
> implement it in as shoddy and buggy a means . and in as obscure and
> technically complex a language as is possible

Yep, see ALL of that often.

Linux/Unix is still kind of a Magic Corner of the computing
world where people strive to make Good Stuff for its own
sake. However the MONEY is in MS/Apple stuff for the brain
dead ... first to be replaced by 'AI' ....

On 4/19/23 11:09 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
> On 4/18/23 21:19, 26B.X939 wrote:
>> On 4/18/23 12:06 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>> On 4/17/23 19:24, 26B.X929 wrote:
>>>> On 4/16/23 9:20 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-04-17 00:49, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>>>> Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2023-04-16, 26B.X929 <26BX929@zoq22u.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     But cut-n-paste and finding stuff and writing stuff
>>>>>>>>     is much easier with pcmanfm and leafpad :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> cut-n-paste works in term emulators.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd guess he means cut and pasting files. I don't do that myself,
>>>>>> preferring commander-style file managers and F6.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Finding stuff?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well on the command-line I'm often caught by typos, so I end up
>>>>>> trying tab completion with the wrong start and wondering how the
>>>>>> directory could not be there. Navigating a directory tree with the
>>>>>> arrow keys in a file manager often turns out quicker without these
>>>>>> hickups. If I were more reliable at typing and remembering
>>>>>> directory names then I can see how the balance might tip the other
>>>>>> way, but I'm not.
>>>>>
>>>>> Same here.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    GUI stuff exists for a reason - and often that reason
>>>>    is that CL approaches require too much precision and
>>>>    twiddly params few can remember unless maybe they're
>>>>    17 and gulping caffeine all day.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm baffled - I've
>>>>>>> never found that. GUI's are so slow and cumbersome.
>>>
>>>      Maybe because you can pick the faster multicore systems?
>
>     Yes because I learned enough about the computers to spot the used
> computer that I wanted to spend money on.
>     My present box cost 240 USD.
>     I got it in April 2020 basically because at 3 lbs it is the
> lightest laptop I have yet owned, aside from my useless tablet.
>
>     My desktop replacement presently in the slow process of
> being upgraded cost twice that and has 4 real i7 cores.
>     All but two of my laptops and one C=64 were used.
>     The two new laptops failed in about 4 years.
>     My used machines have yet to fail except for two machines that
> had locked BIOS.   They did not fare too well.
>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What about when you have a directory with say 50 files named after
>>>>>> towns and you want to copy 30 of them to another directory, isn't
>>>>>> it easier to select them with the mouse in a file manager than to
>>>>>> cut/paste all the names onto the command line?
>>>>>
>>>>> Or select each of them with the "insert" key, if you are using 'mc'
>>>>> :-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    MC is just a 'fake GUI' ... same idea, older approach.
>>>>    Often use it over SSH connections if the job gets kinda
>>>>    complex.
>>>
>>>      I use MC from time to time but since I can run Dolphin in root
>>> mode I do not use it so often as I did when I ran Mandriva.
>>
>>
>>    Used to use dolphin way back, but it got weird. Then
>>    KDE got Too Fat and I dumped it entirely (and forget
>>    Gnome too !). I stick to LXDE/OpenBox/IceWM now. JUST
>>    enough GUI.
>
>     Tried it lately?  It does not take that much memory unless you
> count SSD space.   Of course that is 5.27.4 and 6.x.x may be something
> completely different.

Too "Windows" for my taste - and yes it's STILL heavy
compared to LXDE or IceWM. I'd never use KDE on a PI
for sure ...

So sorry, no sale. Don't even install KDE-dependent
utilities. GUIs are good, but don't go overboard.

>>    MC is particularly useful over SSH connections. You can
>>    do a lot more, a lot faster, a lot more accurately, using
>>    MC as compared to dozens of pure CL variations. Sorry,
>>    but I can't remember the zillion param variants for 50
>>    CL utilities.
>>
>>
>>>      My KDE Plasma on a 4 core i7 at 2.6 GHz is as fast as an
>>> AmigaOS3.1 was on a 50 MHz 68060.  But on Linux we have Memory
>>> Management which is worth more.
>>>
>>> bliss - if you start with a C=64 you appreciate a bit of speed.
>>
>>    Hey, I started BEFORE C64's !  :-) The first box I *owned*
>>    was a VIC-20  ... still kinda fond of those, but they were
>>    not "fast".
>
>     And I owned a pencil with a built-in multiplication table in
> the 1940s and 1950s.

Hey ! I've SEEN those ! Nice little analog calculator.

>     Then I owned a couple of slide rules one in HS and one in a job
> I would rather not discuss right now.

Still have a few slide-rules. Even use 'em on
occasion. Batteries never run down ........

And I'm still fond of the VIC-20. Had its place and,
really, could STILL have some "places" - JUST good
enough. However rPI's have kinda stolen that end of
the deal now.

Now my ZX-81 ... nah ... not really any "place" for
it anymore. If I want CP/M I'll run CP/M-86 in
VirtualBox.

On 4/19/23 2:14 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2023-04-18, 26B.X929 <26BX929@zoq22u.net> wrote:
>
>> The Amigas did have graphics capabilities the rivals
>> were quick to emulate/steal. I know it remained popular
>> for video production studios for quite awhile because
>> of the ease of overlaying/blending vids. Most of this
>> was because of the hardware while the competitors did
>> it with software - not always as snappy.
>
> Choosing a clock speed of 7.16 MHz was a stroke of genius;
> being twice the 3.58-MHz colour subcarrier frequency made
> it easy to handle NTSC video. (I can't remember whether
> C= built machines with a different clock speed for PAL.)
>
>> It was an *interesting* computer in many ways - but
>> Commodore just didn't have enough punch to make it
>> a real competitor with Apple/IBM. Commodore became
>> associated with "toy computers" in the VIC/C64 era
>> and could not gain a "serious stuff" rep like the
>> competitors.
>
> Top management didn't know what they had, didn't care,
> or were deliberately trying to kill it. Many people
> suspect the latter, especially if you've watched the
> "Deathbed Vigil" video. Someone quipped that if Commodore
> made sushi, they'd market it as "cold dead fish".

Heh heh - yea, probably :-)

Those who bought into the company around Amiga time
really didn't want to make computers - they wanted
to scavenge the corporate corpse. Buy, destroy, sell
the little bits, get tax write-offs.

Such a waste.

BUT - by around that time the consumers focused on
just two camps - Apple and IBM/MS. Both turned it
into a "Good vs Evil" publicity campaign to very
profitable effect. There just wasn't ROOM for a
Commodore or much else anymore.

Radio Shack had a good history of selling the TRS
"biz computer" line - CP/M pretty much - and had
done well for a long time. They could have switched
to x86/DOS/Winders units and continued ... but they
were already "obsolete" in buyers eyes. You'd buy
a Mac or IBM (/compatible ... Compaq at the beginning)
or nothing. Everything else was considered "toys"
or "old shit", the very RS/Tandy name was "yesterday".

I think the final model had a m68000 plug-in card,
that would have been nice.

Consumers are only slightly oriented towards tech spex,
they buy into good ad campaigns, "image", first and
foremost. That's where the money is.

Oh well, wasn't long before the MACs had all the look
and feel and (mostly) function of Amiga. And you could
be SO snobbish saying you owned a Mac ! :-)

On 2023-04-21 04:30, 26B.X939 wrote:
> On 4/20/23 4:32 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 20/04/2023 04:06, 26B.X939 wrote:
>>> On 4/19/23 5:31 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 19/04/2023 10:21, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-04-19 08:28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>> On 19/04/2023 05:04, 26B.X939 wrote:

....

>>>    But, despite all the hardware/wiring in the olde dayz, note
>>>    that the software was relatively SIMPLE by today's standards.
>>>    Didn't DO much, so not much could go wrong.
>>>
>>>    This has changed - indeed even for CL utilities/apps.
>>>
>>>    We keep wanting systems to Do More,
>> No, We Dont.
>> We don't want more from a basic word processor then we ever did. 99%
>> of users would be happy with Word Perfect or Wordstar.
>
>
>   WordPerfect is GOOD - still have it. However I mostly
>   use LibreOffice now. WordStar was a bit crude, but
>   you could still get a lot done fast once you learned
>   a handful of control keys.
>
>   But, hate to say it, the PAYING users seem to like
>   "beauty" over "function" these days. MS/Apple go
>   to the bank on that.

Well, actually modern GUI software is easier to start using than
Wordperfect or WordStar.

....

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 21/04/2023 03:30, 26B.X939 wrote:
>   Linux/Unix is still kind of a Magic Corner of the computing
>   world where people strive to make Good Stuff for its own
>   sake. However the MONEY is in MS/Apple stuff for the brain
>   dead ... first to be replaced by 'AI' ....

Linux/Unix is a corner where people who are actually selling TIN or
SYSTEMS - e.g. IBM - just want a stable reliable operating system that
they are happy to pay a team of developers to maintain and give away.

My Ex BIL was in charge of migrating hundreds of NT servers in data
centres onto big blade Linux based virtual servers. They often kept the
NT software, but running in a VM.

Other VMs were running Oracle on Linux, replacing Minicomputers.

The saving in electricity and rack space was enormous.

--
“It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established
authorities are wrong.”

― Voltaire, The Age of Louis XIV

On 2023-04-21, 26B.X939 <26BX939@zoq23q.net> wrote:

> On 4/20/23 4:32 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> The fault lies not with the users.
>
> Um ... yea ... often it does. And no, their employers
> won't/can't afford a big training program and the
> employees themselves rarely hang around long enough
> to learn much of anything. Developers need to understand
> this situation. It will NOT be guru's using their products,
> but Gen-Z pinheads.

And if the user interface changes with each new release,
what's the point of learning anything?

A culture of constant change requires that
ideal solutions be quickly broken or discarded.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | You can't save the earth
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | unless you're willing to
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | make other people sacrifice.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Dogbert the green consultant

On 4/21/23 12:44 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2023-04-21, 26B.X939 <26BX939@zoq23q.net> wrote:
>
>> On 4/20/23 4:32 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> The fault lies not with the users.
>>
>> Um ... yea ... often it does. And no, their employers
>> won't/can't afford a big training program and the
>> employees themselves rarely hang around long enough
>> to learn much of anything. Developers need to understand
>> this situation. It will NOT be guru's using their products,
>> but Gen-Z pinheads.
>
> And if the user interface changes with each new release,
> what's the point of learning anything?

Yep. It'd be like 'ls' or 'rsync' changing all the
flags and values and format every release - becomes
unusable. Why would an employer waste $1200 per
employee to learn Whatever-v2.7 when Whatever-v3.0
is gonna look unrecognizably different ?

We ran into some of this with ESRI ArcGIS/ArcMap
some years ago. People went to educational sessions.
Then, sorry, we're gonna change how everything works
and looks folks ....

> A culture of constant change requires that
> ideal solutions be quickly broken or discarded.

Constant change creates the illusion of "doing
something" ... and justifies paychecks.

On 4/21/23 7:09 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 21/04/2023 03:30, 26B.X939 wrote:
>>    Linux/Unix is still kind of a Magic Corner of the computing
>>    world where people strive to make Good Stuff for its own
>>    sake. However the MONEY is in MS/Apple stuff for the brain
>>    dead ... first to be replaced by 'AI' ....
>
> Linux/Unix is a corner where people who are actually selling TIN or
> SYSTEMS - e.g. IBM - just want a stable reliable operating system that
> they are happy to pay a team of developers to maintain and give away.
>
> My  Ex BIL was in charge of migrating hundreds of NT servers in data
> centres onto big blade Linux based virtual servers. They often kept the
> NT software, but running in a VM.
>
> Other VMs were running Oracle on Linux, replacing Minicomputers.
>
> The saving in electricity and rack space was enormous.

At the "server/datacenter" level, yea, you want it
to WORK RIGHT first and foremost. However that's not
where the Real Money is ... it's selling crap to
individual users and oblivious dept managers and
then blowing enough smoke so they think all the
probs are their OWN fault.

On 4/21/23 5:52 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-04-21 04:30, 26B.X939 wrote:
>> On 4/20/23 4:32 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 20/04/2023 04:06, 26B.X939 wrote:
>>>> On 4/19/23 5:31 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> On 19/04/2023 10:21, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>> On 2023-04-19 08:28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>>> On 19/04/2023 05:04, 26B.X939 wrote:
>
> ...
>
>
>>>>    But, despite all the hardware/wiring in the olde dayz, note
>>>>    that the software was relatively SIMPLE by today's standards.
>>>>    Didn't DO much, so not much could go wrong.
>>>>
>>>>    This has changed - indeed even for CL utilities/apps.
>>>>
>>>>    We keep wanting systems to Do More,
>>> No, We Dont.
>>> We don't want more from a basic word processor then we ever did. 99%
>>> of users would be happy with Word Perfect or Wordstar.
>>
>>
>>    WordPerfect is GOOD - still have it. However I mostly
>>    use LibreOffice now. WordStar was a bit crude, but
>>    you could still get a lot done fast once you learned
>>    a handful of control keys.
>>
>>    But, hate to say it, the PAYING users seem to like
>>    "beauty" over "function" these days. MS/Apple go
>>    to the bank on that.
>
> Well, actually modern GUI software is easier to start using than
> Wordperfect or WordStar.

Very true, you can get further, faster - a LOT faster.

If all you do is compose letters to aunt Millie then
those beautiful surface features are all you'll ever
need.

I'd not want to burden the current gen with CL/terminal
style software for word processing/spreadsheets/web/net.
You'd lose them all overnight. They want attractive and
easy - and throw in a lot of eye-candy. This is probably
90+ percent of the market, of the MONEY.

On 2023-04-21, 26B.X939 <26BX939@zoq23q.net> wrote:

> On 4/21/23 12:44 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> On 2023-04-21, 26B.X939 <26BX939@zoq23q.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/20/23 4:32 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>>> The fault lies not with the users.
>>>
>>> Um ... yea ... often it does. And no, their employers
>>> won't/can't afford a big training program and the
>>> employees themselves rarely hang around long enough
>>> to learn much of anything. Developers need to understand
>>> this situation. It will NOT be guru's using their products,
>>> but Gen-Z pinheads.
>>
>> And if the user interface changes with each new release,
>> what's the point of learning anything?
>
> Yep. It'd be like 'ls' or 'rsync' changing all the
> flags and values and format every release - becomes
> unusable. Why would an employer waste $1200 per
> employee to learn Whatever-v2.7 when Whatever-v3.0
> is gonna look unrecognizably different ?

Because the salesman is really good.

>> A culture of constant change requires that
>> ideal solutions be quickly broken or discarded.
>
> Constant change creates the illusion of "doing
> something" ... and justifies paychecks.

Something must be done. This is something.
Therefore, this must be done.
-- Yes, Prime Minister

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | "Some of you may die,
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | but it's a sacrifice
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | I'm willing to make."
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)

On 2023-04-21, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-04-21, 26B.X939 <26BX939@zoq23q.net> wrote:
>
>> On 4/20/23 4:32 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> The fault lies not with the users.
>>
>> Um ... yea ... often it does. And no, their employers
>> won't/can't afford a big training program and the
>> employees themselves rarely hang around long enough
>> to learn much of anything. Developers need to understand
>> this situation. It will NOT be guru's using their products,
>> but Gen-Z pinheads.
>
> And if the user interface changes with each new release,
> what's the point of learning anything?
>
> A culture of constant change requires that
> ideal solutions be quickly broken or discarded.

Would I guess correctly that you also are required to use
Micro$oft Teams at your day job and experience the partial
upside-downing of posts and replies in channels within the past
few weeks? :-(

For those not afflicted by Teams, at least for myself, it
suddenly switched from being consistently more-recent-at-bottom
to the most recent post and its replies (a "conversation") at the
top but within each conversation the most recent is still at the
bottom. Trying to make chronological sense out of it is
undiluted craziness!

--
Robert Riches
spamtrap42@jacob21819.net
(Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)

On 4/21/23 8:09 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2023-04-21, 26B.X939 <26BX939@zoq23q.net> wrote:
>
>> On 4/21/23 12:44 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> On 2023-04-21, 26B.X939 <26BX939@zoq23q.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/20/23 4:32 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The fault lies not with the users.
>>>>
>>>> Um ... yea ... often it does. And no, their employers
>>>> won't/can't afford a big training program and the
>>>> employees themselves rarely hang around long enough
>>>> to learn much of anything. Developers need to understand
>>>> this situation. It will NOT be guru's using their products,
>>>> but Gen-Z pinheads.
>>>
>>> And if the user interface changes with each new release,
>>> what's the point of learning anything?
>>
>> Yep. It'd be like 'ls' or 'rsync' changing all the
>> flags and values and format every release - becomes
>> unusable. Why would an employer waste $1200 per
>> employee to learn Whatever-v2.7 when Whatever-v3.0
>> is gonna look unrecognizably different ?
>
> Because the salesman is really good.

Yep ! :-)

>>> A culture of constant change requires that
>>> ideal solutions be quickly broken or discarded.
>>
>> Constant change creates the illusion of "doing
>> something" ... and justifies paychecks.
>
> Something must be done. This is something.
> Therefore, this must be done.
> -- Yes, Prime Minister

The appearance of "doing something" seems to be
an integral thing these days. The assumption is
that "something" is for the better - but often
it is NOT. But that's what salesmen and propagandists
are for.

Tech-wise, whatever it is it's probably ALREADY BEEN
DONE, well, before. So, how to justify yer job, yer
company ? Why a Winders-12 ? A Deb-13 ? Another version
of Word or Excel or MySQL ? We're largely looking at a
sector that's simply COASTING on past accomplishments,
stirring the pot so it LOOKS as if it's "doing something".

Oh well, in a few years the 'AI's will take over ...
no more money, no more stuff, for any but the Power
Elite. If you're not seven figures already then
you're OUT.

On 4/21/23 11:04 PM, Robert Riches wrote:
> On 2023-04-21, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2023-04-21, 26B.X939 <26BX939@zoq23q.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/20/23 4:32 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>>> The fault lies not with the users.
>>>
>>> Um ... yea ... often it does. And no, their employers
>>> won't/can't afford a big training program and the
>>> employees themselves rarely hang around long enough
>>> to learn much of anything. Developers need to understand
>>> this situation. It will NOT be guru's using their products,
>>> but Gen-Z pinheads.
>>
>> And if the user interface changes with each new release,
>> what's the point of learning anything?
>>
>> A culture of constant change requires that
>> ideal solutions be quickly broken or discarded.
>
> Would I guess correctly that you also are required to use
> Micro$oft Teams at your day job and experience the partial
> upside-downing of posts and replies in channels within the past
> few weeks? :-(
>
> For those not afflicted by Teams, at least for myself, it
> suddenly switched from being consistently more-recent-at-bottom
> to the most recent post and its replies (a "conversation") at the
> top but within each conversation the most recent is still at the
> bottom. Trying to make chronological sense out of it is
> undiluted craziness!

Hey, we KNOW ... when it comes to M$ every "upgrade"
is a downgrade.

On 4/14/23 5:52 AM, db wrote:
> On 13.04.2023 04.40, stepore wrote:
>> On 4/11/23 07:18, db wrote:
>>> I work with Kubuntu 22.04.
>>> I deleted a file on the Desktop, all folders disappeared from the
>>> Desktop, including the trash can (waste basket). I can regenerate
>>> all the other folders, but how do I get the trash can back? I don't
>>> have nautilus or gconf. It must still be there because when I did
>>> a delete, the system said that the file was put into the trash.
>>
>> I don't understand the need nor use of "trash". I've never once used
>> one. Ever.
>> If i want to delete things I want them gone.
>>
>> If you think you may need filse but are not sure, then leave them
>> alone. Delete them properly when they're no longer needed.
>>
>> But what do you find in:
>> ~/.local/share/Trash
>
> That's where I finally found the erased folders, and was able to
> regenerate the trash on the Desktop, as well as those folders.
>
> You must use the trash, when you wipe files, and it empties itself
> automatically when it gets too full.

??? No ... you do NOT have to use the damned Trashcan.

I always turn it OFF. If I *say* "delete" I *mean* "delete".

If it doesn't wanna be turned off - mark it "read only" like
I do with all the "thumbnail" folders.

On 21/04/2023 19:57, 26B.X939 wrote:
> On 4/21/23 7:09 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 21/04/2023 03:30, 26B.X939 wrote:
>>>    Linux/Unix is still kind of a Magic Corner of the computing
>>>    world where people strive to make Good Stuff for its own
>>>    sake. However the MONEY is in MS/Apple stuff for the brain
>>>    dead ... first to be replaced by 'AI' ....
>>
>> Linux/Unix is a corner where people who are actually selling TIN or
>> SYSTEMS - e.g. IBM - just want a stable reliable operating system that
>> they are happy to pay a team of developers to maintain and give away.
>>
>> My  Ex BIL was in charge of migrating hundreds of NT servers in data
>> centres onto big blade Linux based virtual servers. They often kept
>> the NT software, but running in a VM.
>>
>> Other VMs were running Oracle on Linux, replacing Minicomputers.
>>
>> The saving in electricity and rack space was enormous.
>
>   At the "server/datacenter" level, yea, you want it
>   to WORK RIGHT first and foremost. However that's not
>   where the Real Money is

You would be surprised. IBM is still a big company.

.... it's selling crap to
>   individual users and oblivious dept managers and
>   then blowing enough smoke so they think all the
>   probs are their OWN fault.
>
>

--
"When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics."

Josef Stalin

On 4/22/23 5:53 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 21/04/2023 19:57, 26B.X939 wrote:
>> On 4/21/23 7:09 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 21/04/2023 03:30, 26B.X939 wrote:
>>>>    Linux/Unix is still kind of a Magic Corner of the computing
>>>>    world where people strive to make Good Stuff for its own
>>>>    sake. However the MONEY is in MS/Apple stuff for the brain
>>>>    dead ... first to be replaced by 'AI' ....
>>>
>>> Linux/Unix is a corner where people who are actually selling TIN or
>>> SYSTEMS - e.g. IBM - just want a stable reliable operating system
>>> that they are happy to pay a team of developers to maintain and give
>>> away.
>>>
>>> My  Ex BIL was in charge of migrating hundreds of NT servers in data
>>> centres onto big blade Linux based virtual servers. They often kept
>>> the NT software, but running in a VM.
>>>
>>> Other VMs were running Oracle on Linux, replacing Minicomputers.
>>>
>>> The saving in electricity and rack space was enormous.
>>
>>    At the "server/datacenter" level, yea, you want it
>>    to WORK RIGHT first and foremost. However that's not
>>    where the Real Money is
>
> You would be surprised. IBM is still a big company.

I own stock ...

I'd love one of their mainframes (I think you can
wire up to four of them together)

If a datacenter fails, fortunes are lost.

If your copy of Word or whatever craps, well, not
a big deal to anyone but yourself. Think about how
MANY people buy O365, how MANY buy a vast variety
of quasi-stable crapware. That IS where the real
money is. Volume.

>> ... it's selling crap to
>>    individual users and oblivious dept managers and
>>    then blowing enough smoke so they think all the
>>    probs are their OWN fault.