So, it's Spring and that means its time to think about a new PC. The
old beast is still fairly capable, but the writing is on the wall, and
piecemeal upgrades aren't going to cut it anymore. Time for an
entirely new machine, I think. So I've started figuring out what I
want from the new PC, picking and choosing all the components, and one
thing has jumped out at me:

PC hardware prices are insanely high. I mean, sure, everything has
gone up in price but everything seems so much more expensive than I
expected it to be. Of course, it's been a while since I started from
scratch and admittedly, my expectations were based on what I paid last
time I built a new PC... but wow, this things is gonna be expensive.

Of course, I could build a less expensive machine, but I always prefer
to overbuild; that way I get maximum lifespan from my PCs (especially
if I incrementally upgrade over the years). You buy cheap, you're
gonna end up having to buy a new PC in only a year or two because your
rig is already out-of-date by the time you get it. I'd like to be able
to boast that my PC is "high-end" for at least a year. ;-)

But I may have to dig deeper into my savings than I expected.

On 4/17/2023 6:39 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> So, it's Spring and that means its time to think about a new PC. The
> old beast is still fairly capable, but the writing is on the wall, and
> piecemeal upgrades aren't going to cut it anymore. Time for an
> entirely new machine, I think. So I've started figuring out what I
> want from the new PC, picking and choosing all the components, and one
> thing has jumped out at me:
>
> PC hardware prices are insanely high. I mean, sure, everything has
> gone up in price but everything seems so much more expensive than I
> expected it to be. Of course, it's been a while since I started from
> scratch and admittedly, my expectations were based on what I paid last
> time I built a new PC... but wow, this things is gonna be expensive.
>
> Of course, I could build a less expensive machine, but I always prefer
> to overbuild; that way I get maximum lifespan from my PCs (especially
> if I incrementally upgrade over the years). You buy cheap, you're
> gonna end up having to buy a new PC in only a year or two because your
> rig is already out-of-date by the time you get it. I'd like to be able
> to boast that my PC is "high-end" for at least a year. ;-)
>
> But I may have to dig deeper into my savings than I expected.
>
The issues with the world wide web of supply chains combined with the
very restricted number of sources for some critical components are
largely responsible. Combined with the general bout of corporate
greedflation.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
> On 4/17/2023 6:39 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> > So, it's Spring and that means its time to think about a new PC. The
> > old beast is still fairly capable, but the writing is on the wall, and
> > piecemeal upgrades aren't going to cut it anymore. Time for an
> > entirely new machine, I think. So I've started figuring out what I
> > want from the new PC, picking and choosing all the components, and one
> > thing has jumped out at me:
> >
> > PC hardware prices are insanely high. I mean, sure, everything has
> > gone up in price but everything seems so much more expensive than I
> > expected it to be. Of course, it's been a while since I started from
> > scratch and admittedly, my expectations were based on what I paid last
> > time I built a new PC... but wow, this things is gonna be expensive.
> >
> > Of course, I could build a less expensive machine, but I always prefer
> > to overbuild; that way I get maximum lifespan from my PCs (especially
> > if I incrementally upgrade over the years). You buy cheap, you're
> > gonna end up having to buy a new PC in only a year or two because your
> > rig is already out-of-date by the time you get it. I'd like to be able
> > to boast that my PC is "high-end" for at least a year. ;-)
> >
> > But I may have to dig deeper into my savings than I expected.
> >
> The issues with the world wide web of supply chains combined with the
> very restricted number of sources for some critical components are
> largely responsible. Combined with the general bout of corporate
> greedflation.

I'm glad I don't game much as I used to. I just play older games and
wait for freebies. ;) I also got an used GeForce 9800 GTX for $100, but
it didn't work in two of my PCs. So, I have to keep using my old 750 GT
again. :(

--
"Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near." --Philippians 4:4-5. Is spring break & winter finally over? Please beat Grizzlies, Lakers! :) IRS day eve!
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
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/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 6:40:01 AM UTC-7, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> So, it's Spring and that means its time to think about a new PC. The
> old beast is still fairly capable, but the writing is on the wall, and
> piecemeal upgrades aren't going to cut it anymore. Time for an
> entirely new machine, I think. So I've started figuring out what I
> want from the new PC, picking and choosing all the components, and one
> thing has jumped out at me:
>
> PC hardware prices are insanely high. I mean, sure, everything has
> gone up in price but everything seems so much more expensive than I
> expected it to be. Of course, it's been a while since I started from
> scratch and admittedly, my expectations were based on what I paid last
> time I built a new PC... but wow, this things is gonna be expensive.
>
> Of course, I could build a less expensive machine, but I always prefer
> to overbuild; that way I get maximum lifespan from my PCs (especially
> if I incrementally upgrade over the years). You buy cheap, you're
> gonna end up having to buy a new PC in only a year or two because your
> rig is already out-of-date by the time you get it. I'd like to be able
> to boast that my PC is "high-end" for at least a year. ;-)
>
> But I may have to dig deeper into my savings than I expected.

At least they've come down a bit since the last year or two. I paid
a premium (+50%?) over MSRP on my video card last year, just so I could
play Elden Ring at higher than 600x800.

- Justisaur

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 09:39:45 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>So, it's Spring and that means its time to think about a new PC. The
>old beast is still fairly capable, but the writing is on the wall, and
>piecemeal upgrades aren't going to cut it anymore. Time for an
>entirely new machine, I think. So I've started figuring out what I
>want from the new PC, picking and choosing all the components, and one
>thing has jumped out at me:
>
>PC hardware prices are insanely high. I mean, sure, everything has
>gone up in price but everything seems so much more expensive than I
>expected it to be. Of course, it's been a while since I started from
>scratch and admittedly, my expectations were based on what I paid last
>time I built a new PC... but wow, this things is gonna be expensive.
>
>Of course, I could build a less expensive machine, but I always prefer
>to overbuild; that way I get maximum lifespan from my PCs (especially
>if I incrementally upgrade over the years). You buy cheap, you're
>gonna end up having to buy a new PC in only a year or two because your
>rig is already out-of-date by the time you get it. I'd like to be able
>to boast that my PC is "high-end" for at least a year. ;-)
>
>But I may have to dig deeper into my savings than I expected.

A year and a half or so ago I considered a "refresh". Historically, a
refresh was where my primary / gaming rig gets re-purposed as my music
DAW production box, then a new high-end replacement PC becomes my
primary rig.

I came to a number of conclusions in that process 1) hardware prices
were rediculous 2) there weren't enough new games that piqued my
interest enough to care that much about upgrading 3) most of my music
production interest now involves dedicated hardware instruments and
outboard effects, which takes a lot of the load off the CPU in a DAW
environment, and because of that the days where I couldn't get enough
CPU power in the music studio have waned. 4) I am increasingly doing
video editing and especially with apps like After Effects I could
sometimes use more of everything, but it's not something I do all day
every day so better performance would be more or less a nicety.

I still game at 1080p, and to some extent doing so may be the best way
to get extremely high mileage out of gaming hardware. I bought this
rig in 2018 and it was considered high end at the time.. Core i9 9900k
with a RTX 2080. And it still plays the games I've tried fine (and
I'm pretty demanding with my framerate requirements), even on ultra
settings.

So I came to the conclusion that what a new gaming rig would buy me is
probably 1440p gaming at the same framerates... And that wasn't enough
reason to give a fuck about it all because of reason 2) mentioned
above.

What I did find myself needing is more disk space in both systems
mentioned above, so I put a 8TB Samsung SSD in the primary and same
model but 4TB in the music PC. I also replaced the battery on the
motherboard of the music PC, it is getting around 9 years old and not
keeping time anymore.

With a little luck maybe I will get 5-6 more years out of them as is.
Both of these rigs have very high quality components and neither of
them are getting overworked, so we'll see how it goes. Windows 10 End
of Life might get me first on the music PC, since that one won't
upgrade to Windows 11 (at least its not supported). But if it does, I
may be in a position to just replace the music PC with a decent mid
range unit, as I can get by with much lower specs there, it doesn't
even need a decent video card.

If gaming suddenly got interesting again, then maybe my priorities
would change, but I don't see it happening except for the odd gem.
Sons of the Forest is nice... visually stunning, and runs a treat.

Justisaur <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote:
....
> At least they've come down a bit since the last year or two. I paid
> a premium (+50%?) over MSRP on my video card last year, just so I could
> play Elden Ring at higher than 600x800.

600x800!?!? Don't yuou mean 800x600? That's not even SVGA. LOL!
--
"Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near." --Philippians 4:4-5. Why did winter come back? A new humming bird nest discovered yesterday outside da nest! :) IRS day, but not 4 most of CA! Please beat Grizzlies, Lakers!
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>PC hardware prices are insanely high. I mean, sure, everything has
>gone up in price but everything seems so much more expensive than I
>expected it to be. Of course, it's been a while since I started from
>scratch and admittedly, my expectations were based on what I paid last
>time I built a new PC... but wow, this things is gonna be expensive.

It's really only graphics cards and motherboards that expensive compared
to the past. RAM hasn't been cheaper, and neither have SSDs. CPUs are
about the same price for their market segments. Power supplies and
cases are also about the same, although you may need a bigger power
supply than you used to.

Graphics cards are expensive because there really isn't much competition
any more. People keeping buying Nvidia because their top-of-line cards
are the fastest, never mind that AMD has a cheaper and faster alternative
for all of their not-top-of-line cards. Intel might be able to spark
some competition with their new add-in cards, but that'll will probably
have to wait until their second generation when more people will be
willing to give them a chance.

I'm not entirely sure why motherboards are more expensive, it could
just be that they are getting hard to make with faster memory and busses
making it harder to route all the connections. There's still a lot of
good cheaper options though if you don't mind sacrificing some things
that don't actually make much difference in a gaming PC, like USB ports
(cup holders of the modern day PC) and RGB LED connectors.

>Of course, I could build a less expensive machine, but I always prefer
>to overbuild; that way I get maximum lifespan from my PCs (especially
>if I incrementally upgrade over the years). You buy cheap, you're
>gonna end up having to buy a new PC in only a year or two because your
>rig is already out-of-date by the time you get it. I'd like to be able
>to boast that my PC is "high-end" for at least a year. ;-)

I dunno. Things are moving much slower than they used to. I used to
upgrade my PC every couple of years, but went about a decade before
upgrading my PC recently. A high-end PC built today is still going to
be a high-end PC in a couple of years.

It might be worth waiting a couple months for next round of AMD video
cards to come out, athough if you were thinking of getting an RX 7900
or an Nvidia card they likely won't make any difference in their prices.

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca:11068/
db //

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 09:39:45 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

[snip]
>PC hardware prices are insanely high. I mean, sure, everything has
>gone up in price but everything seems so much more expensive than I
>expected it to be. Of course, it's been a while since I started from
>scratch and admittedly, my expectations were based on what I paid last
>time I built a new PC... but wow, this things is gonna be expensive.
>
[snip]

I see all sorts of articles about how desktop sales are plummeting. Laws
of supply and demand should kick in, though it seemingly won't affect
Nvidia so consider ATI and maybe the whole build will come in reasonable
in 6 months or so. Or lower your Nvidia expectations.

Nvidia is becoming a boutique hardware maker at this point for gaming.
They seem interested in AI parallel processing more than anything else.
Crypto gave them a taste of what raw processing power applications can do
for them and they aren't going back. They believe their stuff is worth
what they're charging, which means an xx70 card is now going to be $1k. I
got my 1080 GTX for $600. Those days are over. The price just doubled.

That said, a 3060 Ti card is doing me a treat rn, because like Rin I game
at 1080. It set me back $370. I don't see any point in 4k, or even 1440,
at all. When I frame limit the thing to 75, it barely breaks a sweat in
most games.

So mid-range isn't really mid-range any more if you lower your
expectation level to current needs. There is no real reason to have a
top-end rig at this point.

I have a home-built i9 9900K system from 2020 that is going to murder
gaming for the foreseeable future. Only thing I'm likely to want is a
compact form factor 4060/70 card at some point.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 4:55:02 PM UTC-7, Ant wrote:
> Justisaur <just...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
> > At least they've come down a bit since the last year or two. I paid
> > a premium (+50%?) over MSRP on my video card last year, just so I could
> > play Elden Ring at higher than 600x800.
> 600x800!?!? Don't yuou mean 800x600? That's not even SVGA. LOL!

Same difference ;)

I can't seem to remember stuff like that anymore. Getting old. :/

Yes, it was pretty unplayable at that resolution as I couldn't make
out words, icons or even see the mobs very well. If I went higher
I couldn't see the mobs in some areas as it wouldn't load their
models. Nothing like fighting invisible mobs. Needed more
VRAM more than the speed of the GPU.

- Justisaur

On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 6:43:18 AM UTC-7, Zaghadka wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 09:39:45 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
> Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>
> [snip]
> >PC hardware prices are insanely high. I mean, sure, everything has
> >gone up in price but everything seems so much more expensive than I
> >expected it to be. Of course, it's been a while since I started from
> >scratch and admittedly, my expectations were based on what I paid last
> >time I built a new PC... but wow, this things is gonna be expensive.
> >
> [snip]
>
> I see all sorts of articles about how desktop sales are plummeting. Laws
> of supply and demand should kick in, though it seemingly won't affect
> Nvidia so consider ATI and maybe the whole build will come in reasonable
> in 6 months or so. Or lower your Nvidia expectations.
>
> Nvidia is becoming a boutique hardware maker at this point for gaming.
> They seem interested in AI parallel processing more than anything else.
> Crypto gave them a taste of what raw processing power applications can do
> for them and they aren't going back. They believe their stuff is worth
> what they're charging, which means an xx70 card is now going to be $1k. I
> got my 1080 GTX for $600. Those days are over. The price just doubled.
>
> That said, a 3060 Ti card is doing me a treat rn, because like Rin I game
> at 1080. It set me back $370. I don't see any point in 4k, or even 1440,
> at all. When I frame limit the thing to 75, it barely breaks a sweat in
> most games.

Same card and yeah it does fine with everything now that I upgraded my
CPU. Well, it's been slowing down a little very, rarely with ray tracing on
in ER. Also at 1080p . I really didn't even want to upgrade to that as higher
res makes things harder to read and either running at non-native or using
zoom makes things blurry. I got a bigger monitor to compensate, but
really I don't even like that as your eye focuses/sees better near the center
which means things at periphery aren't as easily seen.

Most newer games aren't really made for lower resolution now too though
and can look pretty bad when you run lower, so there's that too.

- Justisaur

On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 08:13:48 -0700 (PDT), in
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action, Justisaur wrote:

>Most newer games aren't really made for lower resolution now too though
>and can look pretty bad when you run lower, so there's that too.

Yeah. Haven't really run into that as a big problem yet, but OSDs are
getting pretty small. The PC master race is a young person's game.

I have had to put on reading glasses for some games.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 19:43:47 +0000, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:
>Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>> On 4/17/2023 6:39 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

>> > But I may have to dig deeper into my savings than I expected.

>> The issues with the world wide web of supply chains combined with the
>> very restricted number of sources for some critical components are
>> largely responsible. Combined with the general bout of corporate
>> greedflation.

Oh, I know the reasons; I'm just surprised by how expensive things
have gotten.

>I'm glad I don't game much as I used to. I just play older games and
>wait for freebies. ;) I also got an used GeForce 9800 GTX for $100, but
>it didn't work in two of my PCs. So, I have to keep using my old 750 GT
>again. :(

My current rig is actually still viable, but it lacks TPM 2 and its
CPU is definitely the chokepoint with games. It can run modern games
fairly well, but I'm starting to have to <gulp> reduce Visual Quality
levels down a notch just to keep up frame-rates. Plus, Some components
on this PC are over a decade old. So I think it's time for a full
refresh. Plus, I just want a new PC. New hardware is fun! ;-)

The old PC won't get binned though; it will take over as my "back-up"
PC. Although it /will/ get a much needed cleaning - new thermal paste
on the CPU, full-scrubdown of the fans, reinstallation of the OS and
apps... I might even finally fix that busted front panel that is
supposed to cover the front USB ports.

I'm was considering going 'boutique' with the new PC though, just
because I'm not in the mood to build the thing myself. But if the
prices are as high as they are, that may not be an option. Shame, as
they'd surely do a better job with cable-management and noise
management than I could do...

Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
> The issues with the world wide web of supply chains combined with the
> very restricted number of sources for some critical components are
> largely responsible. Combined with the general bout of corporate
> greedflation.

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
> Oh, I know the reasons; I'm just surprised by how expensive things
> have gotten.

Those aren't the reasons. There's no significant issues limitting
supply anymore. In fact, it's just the opposite, there's now an excess
capacity as demand has fallen dramatically since the end of lockdowns.
That's why RAM and SSD prices are in freefall. Corporations are always
greedy, so that's nothing new.

As I said before it's just motherboards and video cards are more expensive
than they used to be, and motherboards have at least have a plausible
reason why they're more expensive. Not that it matters too much, a $100
motherboard will get the same FPS in games as a $1000 one.

The problem is video cards and that comes down to neither AMD nor Nvidia
see any reason to compete against each other. AMD has stated publically
it's artificially limiting supply to keep prices up, and Nvidia thinks
we should just get used to the current prices being the new normal.
Both companies have more than enough cash flow from other businesses so
there's nothing forcing them to reduce margins in order to get the cash
needed to pay the bills.

In the past the only thing Nvidia made were consumer GPUs and AMD was
usually struggling to compete with Intel. Niether company could afford
to invest a ton of money into developing a GPU architecture and then hold
prices steady when demand proved to be a lot lower than they expected.
But AMD is competing pretty well against Intel in the server market
these days and is making bank off its console processors. Nvidia made
a ton off money off of crypto and stands to make a killing with AI.

Intel is really our only hope here. Their next generation of GPUs will be
make or break for them, so they're likely to be very competive on price.
Even now they're making very competive video cards, at least with newer
games. But for now Nvidia and AMD have no real reason to see Intel as
a threat.

>My current rig is actually still viable, but it lacks TPM 2 [...]

Well, TPM 2 doesn't get you anything except the ability to install
Windows 11 without registry hacks.

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca:11068/
db //

On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 02:55:55 -0000 (UTC), rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
(Ross Ridge) wrote:

>Well, TPM 2 doesn't get you anything except the ability to install
>Windows 11 without registry hacks.

From a security perspective, there are valid benefits to TPM; whether
or not one cares whether a specific machine is susceptible to
ransomware or whatever is another (context dependent) matter.

On 18/04/2023 14:43, Zaghadka wrote:
> So mid-range isn't really mid-range any more if you lower your
> expectation level to current needs. There is no real reason to have a
> top-end rig at this point.

For my last refresh I didn't even go for my normal high mid-range option
as I just don't generally play the games that require it any more. There
will probably will be the odd game that I my current set-up will
struggle with but I just didn't think it was worth the additional cost.

On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 08:43:09 -0500, Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 09:39:45 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
>Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>
>[snip]
>>PC hardware prices are insanely high. I mean, sure, everything has
>>gone up in price but everything seems so much more expensive than I
>>expected it to be. Of course, it's been a while since I started from
>>scratch and admittedly, my expectations were based on what I paid last
>>time I built a new PC... but wow, this things is gonna be expensive.
>>
>[snip]
>
>I see all sorts of articles about how desktop sales are plummeting. Laws
>of supply and demand should kick in, though it seemingly won't affect
>Nvidia so consider ATI and maybe the whole build will come in reasonable
>in 6 months or so. Or lower your Nvidia expectations.
>
>Nvidia is becoming a boutique hardware maker at this point for gaming.
>They seem interested in AI parallel processing more than anything else.
>Crypto gave them a taste of what raw processing power applications can do
>for them and they aren't going back. They believe their stuff is worth
>what they're charging, which means an xx70 card is now going to be $1k. I
>got my 1080 GTX for $600. Those days are over. The price just doubled.
>
>That said, a 3060 Ti card is doing me a treat rn, because like Rin I game
>at 1080. It set me back $370. I don't see any point in 4k, or even 1440,
>at all. When I frame limit the thing to 75, it barely breaks a sweat in
>most games.
>
>So mid-range isn't really mid-range any more if you lower your
>expectation level to current needs. There is no real reason to have a
>top-end rig at this point.

All the more since streaming is becoming an increasing viable option,
and even a very low-end PC is more than capable of streaming
HD-quality games these days.

(there's still a problem of input lag but even the fastest PC suffers
from that)

Still, as I tend to keep my PCs for decades (and keep their components
even longer, as evidenced by my recent Win98 PC rebuild ;-) I still
prefer to buy 'more than I need'. It's generally cheaper than buying a
new mid-range PC every three or five years, and this way I get to stay
at "uber ultra hahahah I can run Crysis on this thing!" settings for
way longer than otherwise. Could I run games at highest settings on a
cheaper PC? Sure. But would I still be able to do so on that same PC
five years down the line? Far less likely.

Plus, you know, PC Master Race membership requires an obnoxiously
powerful computer or they don't stamp your membership card. ;-)

On 22/04/2023 15:26, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 08:43:09 -0500, Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 09:39:45 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
>> Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>> PC hardware prices are insanely high. I mean, sure, everything has
>>> gone up in price but everything seems so much more expensive than I
>>> expected it to be. Of course, it's been a while since I started from
>>> scratch and admittedly, my expectations were based on what I paid last
>>> time I built a new PC... but wow, this things is gonna be expensive.
>>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> I see all sorts of articles about how desktop sales are plummeting. Laws
>> of supply and demand should kick in, though it seemingly won't affect
>> Nvidia so consider ATI and maybe the whole build will come in reasonable
>> in 6 months or so. Or lower your Nvidia expectations.
>>
>> Nvidia is becoming a boutique hardware maker at this point for gaming.
>> They seem interested in AI parallel processing more than anything else.
>> Crypto gave them a taste of what raw processing power applications can do
>> for them and they aren't going back. They believe their stuff is worth
>> what they're charging, which means an xx70 card is now going to be $1k. I
>> got my 1080 GTX for $600. Those days are over. The price just doubled.
>>
>> That said, a 3060 Ti card is doing me a treat rn, because like Rin I game
>> at 1080. It set me back $370. I don't see any point in 4k, or even 1440,
>> at all. When I frame limit the thing to 75, it barely breaks a sweat in
>> most games.
>>
>> So mid-range isn't really mid-range any more if you lower your
>> expectation level to current needs. There is no real reason to have a
>> top-end rig at this point.
>
> All the more since streaming is becoming an increasing viable option,
> and even a very low-end PC is more than capable of streaming
> HD-quality games these days.
>
> (there's still a problem of input lag but even the fastest PC suffers
> from that)
>
> Still, as I tend to keep my PCs for decades (and keep their components
> even longer, as evidenced by my recent Win98 PC rebuild ;-) I still
> prefer to buy 'more than I need'. It's generally cheaper than buying a
> new mid-range PC every three or five years, and this way I get to stay
> at "uber ultra hahahah I can run Crysis on this thing!" settings for
> way longer than otherwise. Could I run games at highest settings on a
> cheaper PC? Sure. But would I still be able to do so on that same PC
> five years down the line? Far less likely.
>
> Plus, you know, PC Master Race membership requires an obnoxiously
> powerful computer or they don't stamp your membership card. ;-)
>

The part that worries me, well sorta anyway, is the prices are just
becoming so silly that you wonder just how many people there are around
that are going to pay that additional money instead of thinking I'll
just get a console instead, thinking about it I'll get two just because
I can.

£1000+ for a MB, what on earth does that really give you?

On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 10:26:26 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

>On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 08:43:09 -0500, Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 09:39:45 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
>>Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>>
>>[snip]
>>>PC hardware prices are insanely high. I mean, sure, everything has
>>>gone up in price but everything seems so much more expensive than I
>>>expected it to be. Of course, it's been a while since I started from
>>>scratch and admittedly, my expectations were based on what I paid last
>>>time I built a new PC... but wow, this things is gonna be expensive.
>>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>I see all sorts of articles about how desktop sales are plummeting. Laws
>>of supply and demand should kick in, though it seemingly won't affect
>>Nvidia so consider ATI and maybe the whole build will come in reasonable
>>in 6 months or so. Or lower your Nvidia expectations.
>>
>>Nvidia is becoming a boutique hardware maker at this point for gaming.
>>They seem interested in AI parallel processing more than anything else.
>>Crypto gave them a taste of what raw processing power applications can do
>>for them and they aren't going back. They believe their stuff is worth
>>what they're charging, which means an xx70 card is now going to be $1k. I
>>got my 1080 GTX for $600. Those days are over. The price just doubled.
>>
>>That said, a 3060 Ti card is doing me a treat rn, because like Rin I game
>>at 1080. It set me back $370. I don't see any point in 4k, or even 1440,
>>at all. When I frame limit the thing to 75, it barely breaks a sweat in
>>most games.
>>
>>So mid-range isn't really mid-range any more if you lower your
>>expectation level to current needs. There is no real reason to have a
>>top-end rig at this point.
>
>All the more since streaming is becoming an increasing viable option,
>and even a very low-end PC is more than capable of streaming
>HD-quality games these days.
>
>(there's still a problem of input lag but even the fastest PC suffers
>from that)
>
>Still, as I tend to keep my PCs for decades (and keep their components
>even longer, as evidenced by my recent Win98 PC rebuild ;-) I still
>prefer to buy 'more than I need'. It's generally cheaper than buying a
>new mid-range PC every three or five years, and this way I get to stay
>at "uber ultra hahahah I can run Crysis on this thing!" settings for
>way longer than otherwise. Could I run games at highest settings on a
>cheaper PC? Sure. But would I still be able to do so on that same PC
>five years down the line? Far less likely.
>
>Plus, you know, PC Master Race membership requires an obnoxiously
>powerful computer or they don't stamp your membership card. ;-)
>
Yeah. I did that last time I built, put in an i9, and I found I totally
didn't need it. The only thing the high-end processor was truly necessary
for was compiling code, which it did impressively. I'd expected low fan
noise due to low usage of a very powerful processor, but the thing ramps
up to 4.7-5Ghz for almost anything so you get constant fan ramps unless
you're cooling with AIO (I'm guessing). Even then the case fans for the
water cooling probably ramp.

I tried turning off "boost mode" and locking it to 3.6Ghz, and stuff
started sputtering. So I don't get it. It runs really quiet at
4.1-4.3Ghz, but just won't stay there, for whatever benchmark they're
trying to beat. So fan noise with a Noctua. Go figure.

I *am* glad I put in 32GB of RAM though. I always double the RAM on a
build.

Honestly, an i5 level chip will do you these days.

Your money, sir, but top end is really for bragging rights, not
longevity. Save the big bucks for the graphics card. But seriously,
docking that to a 75-120 fps will be fine. High frame rates are for
twitch competitive players who are convinced it helps and more bragging
rights.

Of course, if bragging rights are what you're about, carry on! ;^)

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

On Sun, 23 Apr 2023 11:29:50 +0100, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:

>On 22/04/2023 15:26, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 08:43:09 -0500, Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 09:39:45 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
>>> Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>> PC hardware prices are insanely high. I mean, sure, everything has
>>>> gone up in price but everything seems so much more expensive than I
>>>> expected it to be. Of course, it's been a while since I started from
>>>> scratch and admittedly, my expectations were based on what I paid last
>>>> time I built a new PC... but wow, this things is gonna be expensive.
>>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>> I see all sorts of articles about how desktop sales are plummeting. Laws
>>> of supply and demand should kick in, though it seemingly won't affect
>>> Nvidia so consider ATI and maybe the whole build will come in reasonable
>>> in 6 months or so. Or lower your Nvidia expectations.
>>>
>>> Nvidia is becoming a boutique hardware maker at this point for gaming.
>>> They seem interested in AI parallel processing more than anything else.
>>> Crypto gave them a taste of what raw processing power applications can do
>>> for them and they aren't going back. They believe their stuff is worth
>>> what they're charging, which means an xx70 card is now going to be $1k. I
>>> got my 1080 GTX for $600. Those days are over. The price just doubled.
>>>
>>> That said, a 3060 Ti card is doing me a treat rn, because like Rin I game
>>> at 1080. It set me back $370. I don't see any point in 4k, or even 1440,
>>> at all. When I frame limit the thing to 75, it barely breaks a sweat in
>>> most games.
>>>
>>> So mid-range isn't really mid-range any more if you lower your
>>> expectation level to current needs. There is no real reason to have a
>>> top-end rig at this point.
>>
>> All the more since streaming is becoming an increasing viable option,
>> and even a very low-end PC is more than capable of streaming
>> HD-quality games these days.
>>
>> (there's still a problem of input lag but even the fastest PC suffers
>> from that)
>>
>> Still, as I tend to keep my PCs for decades (and keep their components
>> even longer, as evidenced by my recent Win98 PC rebuild ;-) I still
>> prefer to buy 'more than I need'. It's generally cheaper than buying a
>> new mid-range PC every three or five years, and this way I get to stay
>> at "uber ultra hahahah I can run Crysis on this thing!" settings for
>> way longer than otherwise. Could I run games at highest settings on a
>> cheaper PC? Sure. But would I still be able to do so on that same PC
>> five years down the line? Far less likely.
>>
>> Plus, you know, PC Master Race membership requires an obnoxiously
>> powerful computer or they don't stamp your membership card. ;-)
>>
>
>The part that worries me, well sorta anyway, is the prices are just
>becoming so silly that you wonder just how many people there are around
>that are going to pay that additional money instead of thinking I'll
>just get a console instead, thinking about it I'll get two just because
>I can.
>
>£1000+ for a MB, what on earth does that really give you?

Most people - not even PC Master Race high-end gamers - won't buy that
$1000 motherboard. Most don't even pick a motherboard; they get what
comes from the OEM manufacturer (Dell, HP, etc). Instead, they buy a
$800 PC that runs today's games reasonably well, and games three years
from now at low settings. Then they get an entirely new PC.

The $1000 motherboards are only for a tiny few: those who actually
HAVE use for all those high-end features (almost nobody), those who
have more money than sense, and those who are hoping to keep using
that motherboard twenty years down the line when its overpriced
features are the new standard.

If I'm lucky, I fall into category three, but I'm probably in the venn
diagram for group two, too. ;-P

On 24/04/2023 20:15, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

> The $1000 motherboards are only for a tiny few: those who actually
> HAVE use for all those high-end features (almost nobody), those who
> have more money than sense, and those who are hoping to keep using
> that motherboard twenty years down the line when its overpriced
> features are the new standard.

The MB comment was just an example of me thinking WTF when looking at
the price of high end PC components. I just find it hard to understand
what goes through someone's mind buying one and somehow thinking it was
the right choice to make. Now obviously there has to be some sort of
market for it but even if I had a lot more cash my mindset of you're
just taking the piss with prices like that would kick in.

On 4/25/2023 3:14 AM, JAB wrote:
> On 24/04/2023 20:15, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>
>> The $1000 motherboards are only for a tiny few: those who actually
>> HAVE use for all those high-end features (almost nobody), those who
>> have more money than sense, and those who are hoping to keep using
>> that motherboard twenty years down the line when its overpriced
>> features are the new standard.
>
> The MB comment was just an example of me thinking WTF when looking at
> the price of high end PC components. I just find it hard to understand
> what goes through someone's mind buying one and somehow thinking it was
> the right choice to make. Now obviously there has to be some sort of
> market for it but even if I had a lot more cash my mindset of you're
> just taking the piss with prices like that would kick in.
>
There is a simple three word explanation.

"People are stupid."

Explains a lot of things.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 25/04/2023 15:34, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 4/25/2023 3:14 AM, JAB wrote:
>> On 24/04/2023 20:15, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>>
>>> The $1000 motherboards are only for a tiny few: those who actually
>>> HAVE use for all those high-end features (almost nobody), those who
>>> have more money than sense, and those who are hoping to keep using
>>> that motherboard twenty years down the line when its overpriced
>>> features are the new standard.
>>
>> The MB comment was just an example of me thinking WTF when looking at
>> the price of high end PC components. I just find it hard to understand
>> what goes through someone's mind buying one and somehow thinking it
>> was the right choice to make. Now obviously there has to be some sort
>> of market for it but even if I had a lot more cash my mindset of
>> you're just taking the piss with prices like that would kick in.
>>
> There is a simple three word explanation.
>
> "People are stupid."
>
> Explains a lot of things.
>

I did try and insert the "people are stupid" issue but even then I still
couldn't get my head around it! If you take something like a GPU I can
see why someone may think £1,500+ is worth spending as you're getting
something tangible in performance even if I'm not sure it makes that
much difference in reality. With a MB, I just don't get it.

On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:00:36 +0100, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:

>I did try and insert the "people are stupid" issue but even then I still
>couldn't get my head around it! If you take something like a GPU I can
>see why someone may think £1,500+ is worth spending as you're getting
>something tangible in performance even if I'm not sure it makes that
>much difference in reality. With a MB, I just don't get it.

Well, I can't say for $1000 motherboards, but there are reasons for
paying more for premium.

So, the whole point of this thread was that I've started looking for a
new PC. And since I'm not going to settle with a stock Dell, I want
one that fits my needs. And one of those needs is to have lots of
connectivity. I tinker and upgrade with my PC a lot, and I like having
those options. My current PC has 12 USB ports on the back panel, and I
use all* of them. It's a useful feature (so too is that legacy PS2
port. And you'd be surprised how easy it is to use all six SATA
ports). If upgrading, I'd like to match what I already have.

But most motherboards have anything near that level of connectivity
options. The low-end ones offer four or five ports; mid-range might
offer six or eight. But the ones that have more than that? Yeah, they
cost a pretty penny (so much so that I'm probably going with a cheaper
motherboard and will just use a PCI-e card to add extra USB in the
back). But were money not an issue? I'd go with the fuller-featured
board that has all the ports built in.

It's not just foolishness that drives this market. There are some that
want and need the extra features on offer. And if I absolutely could
not do with a feature and it cost me $1000? I'd be spending $1000 on
that motherboard.

* well, almost all of them. There are a couple USB 2.0 ports that are
going unused because they're too slow. But otherwise it's a mess of
cabling back there ;-)

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 09:39:45 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

So, I bit the bullet and bought the PC. Despite the unexpectedly
higher prices, I still managed - more or less - to stay within my
budget and get (what I hope is) a reasonably good machine. It's only a
little bit more expensive than what I paid for my current PC all those
years ago, so I think I actually beat inflation ;-)

As expected, I decided to go with a boutique builder; it was just a
lot less hassle. I've built PCs from scratch before, and enjoy the
challenge, but it just didn't seem worth the effort this time. The
savings would have been minimal, and - between worrying about
counterfeit parts, delayed shipments, forgotten components, and other
annoyances - I figured I might as well let someone else deal with all
that nonsense. Plus, while I've gained some skill at cable management,
I figure professionals are going to do a much better job at it than I
ever could.

Ultimately, I decided on a 13th gen i9-13900K. I've love for AMD CPUs,
but Intel chips always seem to be a bit less problematic, and the
performance and price differences were minimal enough that it really
was a toss-up between the two. But if Threadripper fans want to tell
me how wrong I was, I'm not sure I could argue my case against them.

I paired the CPU with a 4070 GeForce RTX, largely because it was on
sale (otherwise I probably would have gone with a 3070, which
challenges it in performance). Still, it'll be nice to be on (or at
least near) the leading edge of GPU technology for the first time in
years. I threw in 32GB of DDR5 RAM, which should be enough for a while
(although I can imagine upgrading to 64GB eventually), and added a
pair of Samsung 990 Pro M2 SSDs for fastest disk performance.

The motherboard is an ASUS (alas, not one of the $1000 models
discussed elsewhere) which, while capable, isn't particularly
impressive or feature rich. ASUS has gotten a bad rap in this channel
and it may be it is deserved, but I've had good experiences with them
in the past, so we'll see.

For no particular reason except nostalgia, I've also thrown in a
discrete Soundblaster audio card. Onboard audio is more than capable
these days, and arguably this was a waste of money, but it just
doesn't feel right to build a gaming PC without a discrete sound card.

I'm not crazy about the case, partly because it features a large glass
window in the size (the biggest disadvantage of buying from boutiques
is that almost none of them offer cases that aren't overly flashy and
blinged out). I've tried to minimize the number of LED components
within but if worse comes to worse, I'll just find a big piece of
black construction paper to hide all that obnoxiousness. Another
problem is the front-panel lacks external drive bays, and there's only
a couple of USB ports. Apparently connectivity isn't an issue for most
gamers? I figure I'll just throw in an external USB 3.0 hub and call
it a day.

Similarly, I'm stuck with a liquid all-in-one cooler, which I'm not a
fan of (I much prefer air-coolers). But options were, again, limited
and anyway, I'm not really sure an air-cooler would be up to the task.
I'm sure the liquid cooler is fine; I'm just more comfortable with
old-school heatsink/fans.

All in all, I'm generally satisfied with the build. Could I have
gotten better? Definitely, but not in my budget. Could I have built
one myself for cheaper? Maybe... but the margins were really slim. Say
what you want about boutique PC builders, but they aren't overcharging
(well, except for Falcon Northwest, which was by far the most
expensive of the bunch, and for no good reason that I could see). I
might have saved a few hundred dollars if I'd done it myself, but I'm
willing to spend that extra on the convenience.

Of course, the real test will be when the darn thing actually arrives,
which should be in several weeks (well, it probably would have taken
as long were I to order all the parts myself). This new rig will, I'm
sure, be more than satisfactory in performance (especially since most
of my gaming is done at HD resolutions). Will it last as long as my
current PC? I don't know, but I'm hopeful. My biggest concerns are the
number of LEDs (and whether they can be turned off!) and how loud the
machine runs. My current PC is whisper-quiet, to the point that - if
the monitors are off - I can't tell if it's on or not just by its
audible footprint.

And if not, well... I can always get a newer PC. Half the fun of
computer gaming is getting the new rig anyway.

JAB <noway@nochance.com> writes:

> I did try and insert the "people are stupid" issue but even then I
> still couldn't get my head around it! If you take something like a GPU
> I can see why someone may think £1,500+ is worth spending as you're
> getting something tangible in performance even if I'm not sure it
> makes that much difference in reality. With a MB, I just don't get it.

Yes. And yet, those motherboards are in stock (looking at an ASUS ROG
CROSSHAIR X670E EXTREME E-ATX) and they sometimes sell too, a local
store shows they sold one back in December 2022. It retails for 1271.99
euros here. I wonder if people really buy these for game systems. But it
has RGB stuff so not really a workstation board...

Some things I like, for example that motherboard has five slots for m.2
SSDs. Now that I have two slots and 2 TB SSDs are getting cheap it seems
like a third slot would be nice. But the other stuff, a 10 gigabit
ethernet port and about a dozen fast USB ports? Really not my thing, I
typically use two.