On 27/04/2023 10:20, Anssi Saari wrote:
> JAB <noway@nochance.com> writes:
>
>> I did try and insert the "people are stupid" issue but even then I
>> still couldn't get my head around it! If you take something like a GPU
>> I can see why someone may think £1,500+ is worth spending as you're
>> getting something tangible in performance even if I'm not sure it
>> makes that much difference in reality. With a MB, I just don't get it.
>
> Yes. And yet, those motherboards are in stock (looking at an ASUS ROG
> CROSSHAIR X670E EXTREME E-ATX) and they sometimes sell too, a local
> store shows they sold one back in December 2022. It retails for 1271.99
> euros here. I wonder if people really buy these for game systems. But it
> has RGB stuff so not really a workstation board...
>
> Some things I like, for example that motherboard has five slots for m.2
> SSDs. Now that I have two slots and 2 TB SSDs are getting cheap it seems
> like a third slot would be nice. But the other stuff, a 10 gigabit
> ethernet port and about a dozen fast USB ports? Really not my thing, I
> typically use two.

The impression I get is that hardware like that isn't aimed at people
who actually need these type of features (would it really cost that to
add them) but instead people who just want them and are more prepared to
pay a real premium to get them. The expression we have is, well they saw
you coming!

On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 20:13:03 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>I'm not crazy about the case, partly because it features a large glass
>window in the size (the biggest disadvantage of buying from boutiques
>is that almost none of them offer cases that aren't overly flashy and
>blinged out). I've tried to minimize the number of LED components
>within but if worse comes to worse, I'll just find a big piece of
>black construction paper to hide all that obnoxiousness.

This is the kind of case I have. Large glass window with lots of
lighting inside. There is a button on top with different presets for
how the lights behave. I love it. You would hate it.

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>Ultimately, I decided on a 13th gen i9-13900K. I've love for AMD CPUs,
>but Intel chips always seem to be a bit less problematic, and the
>performance and price differences were minimal enough that it really
>was a toss-up between the two. But if Threadripper fans want to tell
>me how wrong I was, I'm not sure I could argue my case against them.

AMD Threadripper CPUs are a poor choice for a gaming PC. They're
workstation CPUs that trade single core performance for a lot more cores
than you see in consumer CPUs. That's great for certain tasks that can
benefit from all those cores, but no game will.

The Ryzen 7 7800X3D is AMD's gaming champion right now. It trades
slightly slower clocks for a massive increase in the L3 cache, which many
games can benefit from. It consiently beats the Core i9-I3900K in game
benchmarks, but tends not to perform as well with other applications.
However your concern about problem with AMDs processors proved to be
justified in this case, as 7000X3D CPUs have been frying themselves,
destroying both the CPU and motherboard in the process.

On that same note, when your new PC arrives, make sure your Samsung SSDs
have the latest firmware. They've had issues with bad firmware causing
to irreversable premature aging of the drives.

>The motherboard is an ASUS (alas, not one of the $1000 models
>discussed elsewhere) which, while capable, isn't particularly
>impressive or feature rich. ASUS has gotten a bad rap in this channel
>and it may be it is deserved, but I've had good experiences with them
>in the past, so we'll see.

I might have gone with Asus but none of their lower priced Z690/Z790
boards had 6 SATA ports, so I would have had to pay a large premium over
MSI and Gigabyte.

>For no particular reason except nostalgia, I've also thrown in a
>discrete Soundblaster audio card. Onboard audio is more than capable
>these days, and arguably this was a waste of money, but it just
>doesn't feel right to build a gaming PC without a discrete sound card.

My last computer didn't have a soundcard so I never considered getting one
for my new PC. There's chance I might want to get one anyways though.
My motherboard only has three rear audio jacks and I've used up to four
of them at once with my old PC. The legacy component I wasn't prepared
to give up was a PS/2 port, which was another reason for going with a
cheaper motherboard as you have to pay extra to not have legacy ports.

>I'm not crazy about the case, partly because it features a large glass
>window in the size (the biggest disadvantage of buying from boutiques
>is that almost none of them offer cases that aren't overly flashy and
>blinged out). I've tried to minimize the number of LED components
>within but if worse comes to worse, I'll just find a big piece of
>black construction paper to hide all that obnoxiousness. Another
>problem is the front-panel lacks external drive bays, and there's only
>a couple of USB ports. Apparently connectivity isn't an issue for most
>gamers? I figure I'll just throw in an external USB 3.0 hub and call
>it a day.

I never understood why people want so many USB ports. I don't think
I've ever used more than 4 USB ports at once. But the case I went with,
a Fractal Define 7, has plenty of front panel USB ports: two USB 2, two
USB 3 and one a USB-C port. It's basically a unicorn of modern cases
right now. All the features you'd expect from a modern case, but with
a 5.25" external drive bay, and the option of having no glass panels.

It's the one part of my build where I can say I splurged, but it still
cost less than my "cheap" motherboard.

>Similarly, I'm stuck with a liquid all-in-one cooler, which I'm not a
>fan of (I much prefer air-coolers). But options were, again, limited
>and anyway, I'm not really sure an air-cooler would be up to the task.
>I'm sure the liquid cooler is fine; I'm just more comfortable with
>old-school heatsink/fans.

There are plenty of air-coolers that are capable of cooling your CPU, but
a good all-in-one cooler should perform better if you're overclocking or
your room temperature isn't 22C. What concerns me about them is how well
they'll hold up over time. I kinda expect my PC parts to last decades,
but I'd be concerned about the plastic tubing degrading. If the pump
breaks down the whole thing is garbage, but if the fan on a tower cooler
fails then it's simple and cheap to replace.

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca:11068/
db //

On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 18:29:15 -0000 (UTC), rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
(Ross Ridge) wrote:

> The Ryzen 7 7800X3D is AMD's gaming champion right now. It trades
> slightly slower clocks for a massive increase in the L3 cache, which many
> games can benefit from. It consiently beats the Core i9-I3900K in game
> benchmarks, but tends not to perform as well with other applications.
> However your concern about problem with AMDs processors proved to be
> justified in this case, as 7000X3D CPUs have been frying themselves,
> destroying both the CPU and motherboard in the process.

Like I said, AMD chips have some impressive specs but the technical
issues are... annoying. Not insurmountable, but - as much as I want to
be an AMD fanboy - Intel is just less hassle.

(I was a huge AMD fanboy in the Athlon days, but ever since AMD bought
out ATI, it seems that quality control has taken a nose-dive. Great
tech, but sometimes more trouble than its worth. Intel may arguably
offer less bang-for-the-buck, but at least what I get 'just works')

> On that same note, when your new PC arrives, make sure your Samsung SSDs
> have the latest firmware. They've had issues with bad firmware causing
> to irreversable premature aging of the drives.

Already aware of the issue, but thanks. After initial testing, the
whole machine will get wiped and everything reinstalled and tinkered
with anyway.

>I never understood why people want so many USB ports. I don't think
>I've ever used more than 4 USB ports at once. But the case I went with,
>a Fractal Define 7, has plenty of front panel USB ports: two USB 2, two
>USB 3 and one a USB-C port. It's basically a unicorn of modern cases
>right now. All the features you'd expect from a modern case, but with
>a 5.25" external drive bay, and the option of having no glass panels.

Between the external drives, scanner, tablet, mouse, keyboard,
joystick, and various other peripherals, I manage to put almost all my
USB ports to use. What can I say; I have a lot of hardware that needs
to be plugged in.

My current chassis has seven front panel USB ports but the new one
will only have two. But, like I said, I'll just strap on a USB hub to
make up the deficit.

>There are plenty of air-coolers that are capable of cooling your CPU, but
>a good all-in-one cooler should perform better if you're overclocking or
>your room temperature isn't 22C. What concerns me about them is how well
>they'll hold up over time. I kinda expect my PC parts to last decades,
>but I'd be concerned about the plastic tubing degrading. If the pump
>breaks down the whole thing is garbage, but if the fan on a tower cooler
>fails then it's simple and cheap to replace.

Yeah, like I said; I'm not really comfortable with liquid-coolers.
Eventually I might swap out the AIO with an air-cooler. But it really
wasn't an option unless I was going to build it myself or pay for one
of the really expensive boutique PCs, and it wasn't worth the cost.

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> writes:

> Like I said, AMD chips have some impressive specs but the technical
> issues are... annoying. Not insurmountable, but - as much as I want to
> be an AMD fanboy - Intel is just less hassle.

Do you want to expand on what you mean by the hassle? I don't
particularly like hassles but going with AMD recently wasn't one for me.

> Between the external drives, scanner, tablet, mouse, keyboard,
> joystick, and various other peripherals, I manage to put almost all my
> USB ports to use. What can I say; I have a lot of hardware that needs
> to be plugged in.

Huh. I typically use two USBs, a hub for mouse and keyboard is one, the
other is the old Xbox gamepad dongle. Sure I plug in USB drives and
sticks on occasion but the occasion is fairly rare. Oh, I do have a
webcam which I mostly use as a mic for work but it plugs into one
monitor.

Regarding sound cards, I really liked it when spdif/toslink reduced that
to a serial port of sorts. So now (and for over two decades) it's just
"plug in the toslink", to the motherboard.

On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 10:59:55 +0300, Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> wrote:

>Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Like I said, AMD chips have some impressive specs but the technical
>> issues are... annoying. Not insurmountable, but - as much as I want to
>> be an AMD fanboy - Intel is just less hassle.

>Do you want to expand on what you mean by the hassle? I don't
>particularly like hassles but going with AMD recently wasn't one for me.

Largely it's been compatibility issues. While they aren't common (and
usually solved fairly quickly with patches), I've run into them enough
times when using AMD chips. Its not that they happen so often or that
I can't deal with them but given that I was on the fence between the
two, it was just enough to tip me over to Intel.

>Regarding sound cards, I really liked it when spdif/toslink reduced that
>to a serial port of sorts. So now (and for over two decades) it's just
>"plug in the toslink", to the motherboard.

I've no real defense of buying a discrete soundcard. I absolutely
agree that onboard sound is more than enough, and that a discrete
soundcard won't really add anything... especially not for my usage. I
won't be able to hear the difference; I won't get any performance
advantage; I don't even really need the extra ports. In fact, I yanked
the soundcard from my current PC years ago.

But I'm old-school enough to remember how transformative soundcards
were to PC gaming, and I guess I'm just trying to recapture some of
that magic with this new PC. Its inclusion is purest luxury; I can
make a case for all the other hardwares choices I've made in my build,
but the soundcard? Yeah, it's a waste of money from a purely
performative side. But it makes me happy to have one, so I'm spendin'
the cash. ;-P

Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> wrote:
>Regarding sound cards, I really liked it when spdif/toslink reduced that
>to a serial port of sorts. So now (and for over two decades) it's just
>"plug in the toslink", to the motherboard.

S/PDIF outputs on motherboards aren't really that different than analogue
audio output jacks. Both are are connected to an HD Audio codec chip,
with the S/PDIF pin connected internally to a S/PDIF encoder on the chip,
while the analogue audio pin is connected to an audio DAC.

In particular unless you're using S/PDIF passthrough while playing
a DVD with Dolby Digital audio or similar, you're not getting a 1:1
perfect bit copy of whatever digital audio you might be listening to.
Both the codec chip and Windows itself will resample and mix the digital
audio being played before it reaches the S/PDIF encoder. On top of that
S/PDIF has some pretty fundamental problems with jitter that will also
distort the audio even in a passthrough configuration.

Personally I prefer using the analogue output jacks over the S/PDIF
output jacks as my AV receiver has a pretty bad S/PDIF decoding latency.
It also lets me use the codec chip's analogue mixer to mix in my AV
receiver's radio tuner audio from it's second room output. At the moment
the audio output from my new PC is also being mixed in on my old PC in
a daisy chain configuration.

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca:11068/
db //

On 17/04/2023 14:39, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> So, it's Spring and that means its time to think about a new PC. The
> old beast is still fairly capable, but the writing is on the wall, and
> piecemeal upgrades aren't going to cut it anymore. Time for an
> entirely new machine, I think. So I've started figuring out what I
> want from the new PC, picking and choosing all the components, and one
> thing has jumped out at me:
>
> PC hardware prices are insanely high. I mean, sure, everything has
> gone up in price but everything seems so much more expensive than I
> expected it to be. Of course, it's been a while since I started from
> scratch and admittedly, my expectations were based on what I paid last
> time I built a new PC... but wow, this things is gonna be expensive.
>
> Of course, I could build a less expensive machine, but I always prefer
> to overbuild; that way I get maximum lifespan from my PCs (especially
> if I incrementally upgrade over the years). You buy cheap, you're
> gonna end up having to buy a new PC in only a year or two because your
> rig is already out-of-date by the time you get it. I'd like to be able
> to boast that my PC is "high-end" for at least a year. ;-)
>
> But I may have to dig deeper into my savings than I expected.

Going off at a slight tangent, I thought you might like this:
https://www.theregister.com/2023/04/28/bofh_2023_episode_8/

Cheers

Geoff

On 4/28/2023 11:00 AM, Geoff May wrote:
> On 17/04/2023 14:39, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>> So, it's Spring and that means its time to think about a new PC. The
>> old beast is still fairly capable, but the writing is on the wall, and
>> piecemeal upgrades aren't going to cut it anymore. Time for an
>> entirely new machine, I think. So I've started figuring out what I
>> want from the new PC, picking and choosing all the components, and one
>> thing has jumped out at me:
>>
>> PC hardware prices are insanely high. I mean, sure, everything has
>> gone up in price but everything seems so much more expensive than I
>> expected it to be. Of course, it's been a while since I started from
>> scratch and admittedly, my expectations were based on what I paid last
>> time I built a new PC... but wow, this things is gonna be expensive.
>>
>> Of course, I could build a less expensive machine, but I always prefer
>> to overbuild; that way I get maximum lifespan from my PCs (especially
>> if I incrementally upgrade over the years). You buy cheap, you're
>> gonna end up having to buy a new PC in only a year or two because your
>> rig is already out-of-date by the time you get it. I'd like to be able
>> to boast that my PC is "high-end" for at least a year. ;-)
>>
>> But I may have to dig deeper into my savings than I expected.
>
> Going off at a slight tangent, I thought you might like this:
> https://www.theregister.com/2023/04/28/bofh_2023_episode_8/
>
I sense Spalls feeling a tug as the tractor beam turns on....

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 12:11:24 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 4/28/2023 11:00 AM, Geoff May wrote:

>> Going off at a slight tangent, I thought you might like this:
>> https://www.theregister.com/2023/04/28/bofh_2023_episode_8/
>>
>I sense Spalls feeling a tug as the tractor beam turns on....

Nah, I'm good for the moment. With my Win95 machine I built out of old
parts, and my WinXP machine I scrounged from the curb, my need for
"new old" PCs is currently satisfied. I mean, sure, if I find another
ancient beast lying abandonned I'll take it home and clean it up, but
mostly just because I like to tinker (it'll probably get moved on to
another 'forever home' afterwards).

Then again... the BOFH did say he had an Apple Lisa... does anybody
have his phone number?

;-)

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>Then again... the BOFH did say he had an Apple Lisa... does anybody
>have his phone number?

It was the Tandy Model 100 that got my attention. The Apple Lisa was a
failed first attempt at the Macintosh, but the Model 100 was the first
really practical laptop even if only journalists bought it.

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca:11068/
db //

On Sat, 29 Apr 2023 17:07:03 -0000 (UTC), rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
(Ross Ridge) wrote:

>Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Then again... the BOFH did say he had an Apple Lisa... does anybody
>>have his phone number?
>
>It was the Tandy Model 100 that got my attention. The Apple Lisa was a
>failed first attempt at the Macintosh, but the Model 100 was the first
>really practical laptop even if only journalists bought it.

<pedant mode> Actually, it was a "TRS-80 Model" 100 mentioned in the
article.</pedant mode>
(yes, I know they're the same, but pedant mode demands accuracy ;-)

But regardless, I still find the Lisa the more attractive option.
8-bit computing doesn't really interest me, and - form factor aside -
there was little the TRS-80 Model 100 did that makes it attractive to
me. It's limited RAM and tiny character LCD screen (with no elevation)
make it a pain to use. It's not even the first computer to use that
form-factor, since the Epson HX-20 beat it by a year. Arguably, the
Tandy Model 200 is the better machine to lust over, since it at least
had a traditional clamshell form-factor common to modern laptops,
instead of looking like an oversized Speak-n-spell.

Now, the Apple Lisa... sure, it was overly complicated and a
commercial flop. But it led to the Apple Macintosh, and it's rare, and
I've never seen one, much less used one. It was actually a usable
computer too. All good reasons to prefer it over the Model 100.

Honestly though, I really have interest in acquiring neither. I'm
really not that much of a fan of owning computers that old. I'm not
really even all that interested in owning a DOS-era PC, except as a
platform in which I can plug in my beloved Gravis Ultrasound.
Emulation is more than capable of handling almost all software from
that era, and as much as I love tinkering with older gear, past a
certain age it becomes more work than fun (especially once you have to
start worrying about replacing capacitors).

So maybe I won't give the BOFH a call after all. Which is probably for
the best, since any interactions with the BOFH have a high chance of
you ending up dead ;-)

On 4/30/2023 7:12 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Apr 2023 17:07:03 -0000 (UTC), rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
> (Ross Ridge) wrote:
>
>> Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Then again... the BOFH did say he had an Apple Lisa... does anybody
>>> have his phone number?
>>
>> It was the Tandy Model 100 that got my attention. The Apple Lisa was a
>> failed first attempt at the Macintosh, but the Model 100 was the first
>> really practical laptop even if only journalists bought it.
>
>
> <pedant mode> Actually, it was a "TRS-80 Model" 100 mentioned in the
> article.</pedant mode>
> (yes, I know they're the same, but pedant mode demands accuracy ;-)
>
And provides an excuse for another lecture. :P

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Sun, 30 Apr 2023 08:50:01 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 4/30/2023 7:12 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

>> <pedant mode> Actually, it was a "TRS-80 Model" 100 mentioned in the
>> article.</pedant mode>
>> (yes, I know they're the same, but pedant mode demands accuracy ;-)
>>
>And provides an excuse for another lecture. :P

Like I need an excuse. ;-)

And please... lecture? A lecture is given for the purpose of
instruction. My comments are more along the line of random and overly
wordy drivel. They're aimless meanderings; contentless word-salads
pushed by a need to 'drive up engagement' on Usenet.

And, I mean, it worked. You responded. ;-P

On 4/30/2023 10:19 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Apr 2023 08:50:01 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>> On 4/30/2023 7:12 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>
>>> <pedant mode> Actually, it was a "TRS-80 Model" 100 mentioned in the
>>> article.</pedant mode>
>>> (yes, I know they're the same, but pedant mode demands accuracy ;-)
>>>
>> And provides an excuse for another lecture. :P
>
> Like I need an excuse. ;-)
>
> And please... lecture? A lecture is given for the purpose of
> instruction. My comments are more along the line of random and overly
> wordy drivel. They're aimless meanderings; contentless word-salads
> pushed by a need to 'drive up engagement' on Usenet.
>
How long has it been since you were in college? O_o

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>Now, the Apple Lisa... sure, it was overly complicated and a
>commercial flop. But it led to the Apple Macintosh, and it's rare, and
>I've never seen one, much less used one. It was actually a usable
>computer too. All good reasons to prefer it over the Model 100.

I've seen and used the Apple Lisa, but only breifly a few times on
display in computer stores. I'd have less use for an Apple Lisa than
Model 100 as I could use at least use the later as a portable serial
terminal or take notes while playintg a game without having to ALT-TAB.
A Model 100 should be more reliable and easier to maintain as well.

An Apple Lisa is basically a Macintosh without any software. With an
original Macintosh there's actually a few decent games worth playing,
so I rather have an early Mac than a Lisa even if the later is rarer.

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca:11068/
db //