While this is the action group, it still is the one read most. I found
an interesting documentary on SOTA, basically some series die with a
bang others with a blimp, Ultima died with... fraud deceive and
ignorance and greed but we probably can consider it dead by now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMxjwtxn6NI

I basically gave finally up mentally on the series when SOTA basically
instantly made a shift a few weeks after the kickstarter towards MMRPG
and later moved towards an overpriced asset shop with a bad game
attached to it.

RIP Ultima!

Am 03.08.23 um 23:13 schrieb Werner P.:
> While this is the action group, it still is the one read most. I found
> an interesting documentary on SOTA, basically some series die with a
> bang others with a blimp, Ultima died with... fraud deceive and
> ignorance and greed but we probably can consider it dead by now:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMxjwtxn6NI
>
> I basically gave finally up mentally on the series when SOTA basically
> instantly made a shift a few weeks after the kickstarter towards MMRPG
> and later moved towards an overpriced asset shop with a bad game
> attached to it.
>
> RIP Ultima!
The entire video left out a few things, like for instance how NC soft
dropped him during the Tabula Rasa launch because he preferred to go
into space instead and he basically sued the sum he spent on his space
tourism out of NCSoft afterwards.
Also it missed the disgrace of a game Ultimate Collector was:
(heavy cringe warning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4V2PbH1GU0c)

It also missed to some degree on how the promises during the SOTA
kickstarter were very different to what happened in the end, and that
the game 3 weeks after the kickstarter ended was announced to be the
next attempt at MMORPGs from his side and after that how it ended up to
be an Ultima Collector with an attached game! (Whale fishing was
basically the business model and hence the player numbers never really
took off)

That and the cash grab from EA with the Ultima mobile game which
explained within the first 10 minutes how you could raise your chance of
getting good loot from boxes by buying keys from their store basically
was the final death nail for this beloved series.

To mock EAS attempt on Ultima (Ultima Forever) may, Lady British rest in
peace (They used Lady British because Gariott had the right to use Lord
British)

On Fri, 4 Aug 2023 08:53:56 +0200, "Werner P." <werpu@gmx.at> wrote:
>Am 03.08.23 um 23:13 schrieb Werner P.:

>> While this is the action group, it still is the one read most. I found
>> an interesting documentary on SOTA, basically some series die with a
>> bang others with a blimp, Ultima died with... fraud deceive and
>> ignorance and greed but we probably can consider it dead by now:

>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMxjwtxn6NI

>> I basically gave finally up mentally on the series when SOTA basically
>> instantly made a shift a few weeks after the kickstarter towards MMRPG
>> and later moved towards an overpriced asset shop with a bad game
>> attached to it.
>> RIP Ultima!

>The entire video left out a few things, like for instance how NC soft
>dropped him during the Tabula Rasa launch because he preferred to go
>into space instead and he basically sued the sum he spent on his space
>tourism out of NCSoft afterwards.
>Also it missed the disgrace of a game Ultimate Collector was:
>(heavy cringe warning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4V2PbH1GU0c)

>It also missed to some degree on how the promises during the SOTA
>kickstarter were very different to what happened in the end, and that
>the game 3 weeks after the kickstarter ended was announced to be the
>next attempt at MMORPGs from his side and after that how it ended up to
>be an Ultima Collector with an attached game! (Whale fishing was
>basically the business model and hence the player numbers never really
>took off)

>That and the cash grab from EA with the Ultima mobile game which
>explained within the first 10 minutes how you could raise your chance of
>getting good loot from boxes by buying keys from their store basically
>was the final death nail for this beloved series.

>To mock EAS attempt on Ultima (Ultima Forever) may, Lady British rest in
>peace (They used Lady British because Gariott had the right to use Lord
>British)

Ultima essentially died with "Ultima 8". I'd argue it was already on
life-support with "Ultima 7 Part II: Serpent Isle", which was a good
game, but was incredibly buggy and rushed.

With "Ultima 8" and beyond, almost everything that made the Ultima
franchise so memorable was scrapped and the series never recovered.
Despite some impressive-for-the-time production values, "Ultima IX"
was a travesty in gameplay and story. Meanwhile, "Ultima Online" was
really its own thing that really had little to do with the series
except in the broadest strokes. And everything beyond that - the
abysmal EA mobile games, "Shroud of the Avatar", and the others - come
off as cash-ins on the name rather than games worthy of being played
for their own merits.

(I'll cut "Underworld Ascendant" a break. I think the developers
genuinely wanted to make a game that would stand up against the
originals. They just weren't very good at it. ;-)

The problem with Ultima these days is, sad to say, Garriot himself.
Despite his early success with the franchise, he doesn't really have
the skill to develop the larger and more complex games modern gamers
demand. The success of games like Ultima V and beyond were
increasingly because of the involvement of others - Warren Spector,
Dallas DeSnell and others - rather than Garriot himself.

If we ever see another good Ultima game, it will be despite Garriot,
not because of his involvement. Perhaps EA might finally pull itshumb
out of its ass, realize the value of some of its older franchises, and
hand the Ultima title to some reputable developer. If they manage not
to then pollute the result by adding 'live service' game mechanics and
microtransactions, I think the game would see some success. It's not
impossible; "Baldur's Gate 3" seems to be resoundingly successful and
it is possible the EA C-levels are going over their IP portfolio as we
speak.

But if it happens, I hope they don't involve Garriot. At best, they'll
buy (or at least license) any remaining Ultima-related IP from the
man. But keep him away from the game itself.

On Fri, 04 Aug 2023 11:47:46 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>With "Ultima 8" and beyond, almost everything that made the Ultima
>franchise so memorable was scrapped and the series never recovered.

I agree completely. Shroud of the Avatar had nothing to do with the
death of Ultima. It happened with Ultima 8. Ultima 9 sealed the deal.

Am 04.08.23 um 17:47 schrieb Spalls Hurgenson:
> With "Ultima 8" and beyond, almost everything that made the Ultima
> franchise so memorable was scrapped and the series never recovered.
> Despite some impressive-for-the-time production values, "Ultima IX"
> was a travesty in gameplay and story. Meanwhile, "Ultima Online" was
> really its own thing that really had little to do with the series
> except in the broadest strokes. And everything beyond that - the
> abysmal EA mobile games, "Shroud of the Avatar", and the others - come
> off as cash-ins on the name rather than games worthy of being played
> for their own merits.
I beg to differ here I would say UO was Ultimas downfall and also
pinnacle. Playerwise it finally produced the success Garriott was after
for such a long time, but on its road it killed basically several
franchises because all teams were axed and pulled into UO.
The crusader part 3 was never developed with it, Ultima 9s original
project team which wanted to do a top down 3d successor in a style
similar to Ultima 7 was scrapped mid way to help out on UO and the end
result was basically that after a few years of hiatus another team was
assembled and we got the stripped down U9 with a way worse plot than the
original idea.
I still have a sour taste in my mouth when it comes to UO because I
still think it was one of the main reasons why so many franchises which
EA bought from Origin died, probably Wing Commander was a similar victim
to UOs success, because all EA from that moment onwards wanted to milk
the cash cow it had, as long as possible, without any big investment,
hence there also never was a second UO part it was scrapped for whatever
reasons 60-70% into the production (probably it was not a good game as well)

Am 04.08.23 um 19:47 schrieb Mike S.:
> On Fri, 04 Aug 2023 11:47:46 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
> <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> With "Ultima 8" and beyond, almost everything that made the Ultima
>> franchise so memorable was scrapped and the series never recovered.
>
> I agree completely. Shroud of the Avatar had nothing to do with the
> death of Ultima. It happened with Ultima 8. Ultima 9 sealed the deal.
Shroud of the avatar basically at least for me killed the last glimmer
of hope to see a decent Ultima ever again. Others are carrying the torch
forward nowadays, but Ultima as a franchise is basically dead and SOTA
was the last nail into the coffin, the corpse died with UO and its
fallout the mobile revival from EA did not help but was another nail and
Garriot basically placed the final nail onto the coffin and sent it
finally to its grave.

On Friday, August 4, 2023 at 1:54:00 AM UTC-5, Werner P. wrote:
> Am 03.08.23 um 23:13 schrieb Werner P.:
> > While this is the action group, it still is the one read most. I found
> > an interesting documentary on SOTA, basically some series die with a
> > bang others with a blimp, Ultima died with... fraud deceive and
> > ignorance and greed but we probably can consider it dead by now:
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMxjwtxn6NI
> >
> > I basically gave finally up mentally on the series when SOTA basically
> > instantly made a shift a few weeks after the kickstarter towards MMRPG
> > and later moved towards an overpriced asset shop with a bad game
> > attached to it.
> >
> > RIP Ultima!
> The entire video left out a few things, like for instance how NC soft
> dropped him during the Tabula Rasa launch because he preferred to go
> into space instead and he basically sued the sum he spent on his space
> tourism out of NCSoft afterwards.
> Also it missed the disgrace of a game Ultimate Collector was:
> (heavy cringe warning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4V2PbH1GU0c)
>
> It also missed to some degree on how the promises during the SOTA
> kickstarter were very different to what happened in the end, and that
> the game 3 weeks after the kickstarter ended was announced to be the
> next attempt at MMORPGs from his side and after that how it ended up to
> be an Ultima Collector with an attached game! (Whale fishing was
> basically the business model and hence the player numbers never really
> took off)
>
> That and the cash grab from EA with the Ultima mobile game which
> explained within the first 10 minutes how you could raise your chance of
> getting good loot from boxes by buying keys from their store basically
> was the final death nail for this beloved series.
>
> To mock EAS attempt on Ultima (Ultima Forever) may, Lady British rest in
> peace (They used Lady British because Gariott had the right to use Lord
> British)

Are Ultima and Tabula Rasa related? I would have bought it if I knew that.

On Fri, 4 Aug 2023 15:16:55 -0700 (PDT), Julian <j63840576@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Are Ultima and Tabula Rasa related? I would have bought it if I knew that.

Only in the sense that Garriot had a hand in developing both games.
After Garriot left Origin, he partnered with NCSoft and helped create
"Tabula Rasa".

"Tabula Rasa" also has some similiarity in that, like "Ultima Online",
its an online RPG. There was also a "General British" character in the
game. You might also find some other minor things (both "Ultima" and
"Tabula Rasa" had a fictional alphabet; Runic in the former, Logos in
the latter). I'm sure there's a number of easter eggs in "Tabula" too
that reference Ultima, just because Garriot's involvement was a major
factor in driving player engagement with the game.

But, functionally - mechanically and narratively - the games are
completely different and separate.

On Fri, 4 Aug 2023 22:57:40 +0200, "Werner P." <werpu@gmx.at> wrote:
>Am 04.08.23 um 17:47 schrieb Spalls Hurgenson:

>I beg to differ here I would say UO was Ultimas downfall and also
>pinnacle. Playerwise it finally produced the success Garriott was after
>for such a long time, but on its road it killed basically several
>franchises because all teams were axed and pulled into UO.
>The crusader part 3 was never developed with it, Ultima 9s original
>project team which wanted to do a top down 3d successor in a style
>similar to Ultima 7 was scrapped mid way to help out on UO and the end
>result was basically that after a few years of hiatus another team was
>assembled and we got the stripped down U9 with a way worse plot than the
>original idea.

I don't necessarily disagree or agree; I think it's a matter of
definition. Undeniably "Ultima Online" economically incentived
Electronic Arts (and Origin)to focus on the online game over the
old-school single-player game. But narratively and thematically, the
Ultima 7 games were - IMHO - the end-point for the classic franchise.
Both viewpoints are correct in a limited way; it's really what we mean
by "downfall" or "death" of the franchise.

If there's one thing we can take away from that era - and indeed, all
the years since - is that Garriot is a bad businessman and terrible at
project management. EA was able to buy out Origin because - despite
having huge successes like Ultima 6 and 7, and Wing Commander I and II
- the company was struggling financially. "Ultima 9" was such a
disaster because EA - fed up with how Garriot was mismanaging the
project - pushed it out the door long before it was ready. Garriot
thought he could replicate "Ultima Online's" success in 2015 with a
measly $15 million to build up "Shroud of the Avatar". He later
started dabbling in NFTs. Self-taught in an era when you could write
games single-handedly, he has repeatedly shown that he does not have
the necessary skill set to lead larger teams that develop the much
more complicated games we expect today.

[responding here to a comment from yours and MikeS' other posts sent
earlier today because I've already written three responses in this
thread]

On Fri, 4 Aug 2023 22:59:46 +0200, "Werner P." <werpu@gmx.at> wrote:
>Am 04.08.23 um 19:47 schrieb Mike S.:

>> I agree completely. Shroud of the Avatar had nothing to do with the
>> death of Ultima. It happened with Ultima 8. Ultima 9 sealed the deal.

>Shroud of the avatar basically at least for me killed the last glimmer
>of hope to see a decent Ultima ever again. Others are carrying the torch
>forward nowadays, but Ultima as a franchise is basically dead

And, really, is that so bad?

I'm a huge Ultima fan. I've got all the games. I've got all the books.
I've tossed almost all the boxes of my video games over the years to
make room for other stuff, but the packaging for Ultima? That I kept.
Back in the day, I could read and write Runic fluently. For years, my
online handle was taken from the video games. You can still find
numerous influences in my tabletop role-playing campaigns that owe
some fealty to the Ultima franchise. You could probably even say that
the - admittedly shallow - philosophical underpinnings of the game to
some degree influenced how I lived my life.

Because - though I really liked the Ultima series - I am fine with
letting it go.

Even with the lackluster ending we got in "Ultima 9", I'm fine with
how it concluded. Because that's what every story needs: an ending.
You can't keep constantly dipping back into the same well; you just
dilute everything that made the originals so special and memorable.
Sure, you could go back and try to recreate the magic but it rarely
works and you're usually much better putting your time and effort into
am entirely new IP.

It's not that I don't think a skilled team /could/ revitalize the
series. With enough talent and money, there's enough to explore
thematically that you could create a really exciting game.

I just don't see the necessity of it, beyond nostalgia. As much as a
part of me would love to play the role of The Avatar again, I think,
on the whole, I would much rather explore something entirely new.

On Friday, August 4, 2023 at 6:22:08 PM UTC-5, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

> It's not that I don't think a skilled team /could/ revitalize the
> series. With enough talent and money, there's enough to explore
> thematically that you could create a really exciting game.
>
> I just don't see the necessity of it, beyond nostalgia. As much as a
> part of me would love to play the role of The Avatar again, I think,
> on the whole, I would much rather explore something entirely new.

I bet that it would revitalize Ultima if they sold it on Steam. Everyone holds out but eventually everything shows up on Steam.

On Fri, 4 Aug 2023 17:28:00 -0700 (PDT), Julian <j63840576@gmail.com>
wrote:
>On Friday, August 4, 2023 at 6:22:08?PM UTC-5, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

> I just don't see the necessity of it, beyond nostalgia. As much as a
>> part of me would love to play the role of The Avatar again, I think,
>> on the whole, I would much rather explore something entirely new.

> I bet that it would revitalize Ultima if they sold it on Steam.
> Everyone holds out but eventually everything shows up on Steam.

I was surprised to learn that the classic "Ultima" games are /not/ on
Steam. Well, not /entirely/ surprised - it is an Electronic Arts
property, after all - but I had thought they'd relaxed on their feud
with Valve.

Oh well, the games remain available on GOG.

I do wonder how much of a lifespan Ultima really has though. Sure, if
a brand-new "Ultima" game came out in the next five years its name
alone would still guarantee it a bunch of sales... but "Ultima Online"
released 25 years ago, and "Ultima 7" was 30 years ago. Fans of the
original games are aging out and there hasn't been anything new to
attract new gamers to the franchise since. Publishers can't rely on
nostalgia forever.

Especially since - as important as Ultima may have been to computer
role-playing - it's barely a blip compared to bigger-name franchises.
PC games in the early 90s were considered a huge success if they made
a hundred thousand sales; it's estimated that "Ultima 7" has only
reached around 5 million sales in its entire 30 year lifetime! "Final
Fantasy VII Remake" made more than that in its first month. The
audience that would fanatically buy into an official "Ultima" sequel
probably isn't big enough to bother... at least if all the publishers
were depending on was nostalgia to draw people in.

Werner P. <werpu@gmx.at> wrote:
>I beg to differ here I would say UO was Ultimas downfall and also
>pinnacle.

I'm going to say something controversial here, but I think Ultima's
downfall actually started much earlier. You're right that Ultima Online
was a pinnacle to the series, it did exceptionally well financially and
that success did distract from the single player series. However, I think
the downfall of the single player games actually began with Ultima VI.

It was with Ultima VI the series really changed direction. The graphics
got much better, now supporting 256-colour VGA graphics and a seemless
word. Improving technology also allowed the storyline became deeper
as well. But the game mechanics went in the other direction and became
more simplified, dumbed down even. Ultima VII took things even further,
even better graphics, better story and more interactive world, and even
more simple gameplay.

The games did really well. They looked better than pretty much any other
games on the market, and the simplified game mechanics probably helped
attract new players who weren't into RPGs before. Fans of the previous
games in the series were still eager to buy the games. But to me, the
series now felt less like an RPG and more like an adventure game with
some RPG elements tacked on.

I think this not only hurt the Ultima series in the long run, but
also helped lead to the RPG drought of the mid-90's. The games set
a high-standard for graphics that was hard for other games to meet.
They changed players expections of what an RPG was but developers mostly
wanted to create the crunchy RPGs of old.

Things didn't get back on track until Diablo, Fallout and Baldur's
Gate proved that you didn't really need cutting edge graphics to make a
successful RPG. While these games had much better graphics than Ultima
VII, using higher resolutions and much more colours, they were still 2D
games in era when 3D graphics was considered state of the art. This was
an era where phrases like "good graphics, for an RPG" started to be used.

Gameplay-wise these games used improved technolgy to create even deeper
RPG systems, while incorporating UI improvements like mouse focused
interfaces that helped make the games more accessible. The players
that had bought Ultima VII only because of the graphics had moved on
to games like Doom and Quake. The players that were left, the RPG fans
that were suffering through the drought, couldn't be more eagier to play
these games that largely ignored what Ultima VI and VII did to the genre.

So while I think Ultima Online was a distraction and helped hammer in the
the nail that was Ultima IX into Ultima's coffin, I think the series was
doomed since Ultima VI. Chasing the cutting edge graphics that had help
make VI and VII a success forced the developers to sacrifice everything
else that made the Ultima series great. It wasn't just gameplay mechanics
that suffered, but non-linearity had to go, and the story had to be cut down
as well. The world of Britania, already feeling like a theme park in
Ultima VII, had to shrink even more.

Without Ultima Online, Ultima IX might not have been released as a buggy
mess, but it still would've killed the franchise. It had great graphics,
for an RPG, but even bleeding edge graphics wouldn't have been enough
to pull gamers away from their FPSes. Ultima VII was also a buggy mess
when it was released, but it came out in a different era and hadn't
completely abandoned its roots. For RPG fans, even for die-hard Ultima
fans, there was nothing much left in the game to like.

(I do realize that my description of the relative quality of the graphics
of these games might not make sense to anyone who didn't live through
the 90's or doesn't remember those times well. Looking back at Ultima
VII, the graphics look like the pixel graphics of a cheap low-budget
indie game today. The 2D graphics of Fallout and Baldur's Gates look
infinitely better today than the primitive 3D graphics of contemporary
FPSes. But Ultima VI and VII really did push the boundaries of 2D "pixel"
graphics, and 3D graphics were judged relative to what was possible then.)

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca:11068/
db //

On Fri, 04 Aug 2023 11:47:46 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

>Ultima essentially died with "Ultima 8". I'd argue it was already on
>life-support with "Ultima 7 Part II: Serpent Isle", which was a good
>game, but was incredibly buggy and rushed.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and claim that it stumbled and fell with
U7 and utterly died with U7-P2. Therefore, Ultima was murdered by EA. For
frame of reference, the gargoyle plotline in Ultima 6 closed out the
Avatar saga, and U7 started the "Guardian" saga. I suspect that jarring
change in subtlety was EA's call.

The Guardian was a *very* bad move. Ultima 7 carried on as enjoyable
through inertia and (maybe) some clever subversion on Origin's part, but
the overarching conflict was silly, simplistic, and the "defeat" of the
Guardian at the end of U7 put Origin into a narrative box. Frankly, IMHO,
it put them into comic book territory.

And I have no doubt that EA demanded a mainstream, "relatable" plotline.
"Where's the bad guy?!" some C-level guy asks. "Can we put a dog
companion in there? Everyone loves dogs." U7 managed to be mid *despite*
the Guardian, and the fact that his presence was little more than a
taunting voice through most of the title should tell you what a great
idea the character was. I think his introduction checked a box for some
entertainment industry beancounter's reassurance, and his notable absence
was the theoretical subversion Origin performed. Add bending the knee to
the EA logo (the generators) and you can see how immediately corrupting
EA's influence was.

On the tech front, the "Voodoo" memory management system that Origin went
out of its way to develop (takes full advantage of your 386!) made it a
PITA to run. Could it even run on a 286? IIRC, no. BIG strike. Up there
with Rebel Insult* virtually requiring a 486.

So Origin lost their way on tech. They lost their way on story. They had
no plan for the future of the franchise, IMO. In hindsight, I could have
done without the Guardian trilogy entirely, though I ate up the wonderful
tech and graphics at the time.

If the story of Ultima 8 had been any good, I could have forgiven it. The
narrative dead-end Origin created made it pretty much impossible. They
boxed themselves in with the silly Guardian. By the time you get to U9,
Origin is more interested in creating a fully realized graphical world
because they sure have no way to impress with the narrative. They used to
push both tech and narrative, and sometimes failed on the edges, and now
they were just pushing tech (and boy did U9 ever do that!).

So yeah. Ultima 6, which I bought even though at the time I didn't have a
computer capable of running it**, pretty much ended good, thoughtful
storylines for Ultima. Introducing an "anti-avatar" was a bad move and
killed the sociopolitcal nature of Ultima storylines in favor of a
storyline worthy of a 9-year-old playing with action figures. It went
from subtle ethics and explorable ends to a focused one-way war against
an unredeemable cult and its clearly allegorical Satan.

In contrast, the parallel society of the gargoyles and their initial
appearance as a nameless, brutal enemy is a lesson that exists in my D&D
campaigns today. The storyline of U7 was just the same-old, same-old and
died in my mind shortly after completing it. U7 had a feeling of "Welp,
I'm done with this game" whereas U6 was "This game makes me think about
the nature of evil itself."

Yeah, them's fighting words, but while I initially enjoyed U7 despite the
Guardian, it is not something I've replayed like 4, 5, and 6. One and
done that one. No subtlety whatsoever.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

* As "Rebel Assault" was dubbed by people who couldn't run it on their
expensive 386's.

** I did have a C=64, and was excited when the conversion came out, only
to find that it was complete crap, the conversion didn't work right, and
the disk swapping was nigh intolerable. But it *proves* that it could
have run on a 286 if not for Voodoo memory management, because it did
limp along on a C=64 which was waaay less powerful, and 286's *did* have
hard disks.

On Thu, 3 Aug 2023 23:13:44 +0200, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
Werner P. wrote:

>While this is the action group, it still is the one read most. I found
>an interesting documentary on SOTA, basically some series die with a
>bang others with a blimp, Ultima died with... fraud deceive and
>ignorance and greed but we probably can consider it dead by now:
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMxjwtxn6NI
>
>I basically gave finally up mentally on the series when SOTA basically
>instantly made a shift a few weeks after the kickstarter towards MMRPG
>and later moved towards an overpriced asset shop with a bad game
>attached to it.
>
>RIP Ultima!

After his proselytizing of "ethical hedonism," which essentially boils
down to "I do what I want because it feels good, if in my limited human
imagination it doesn't hurt anyone" I never trusted Garriot again. I was
thoroughly unsurprised that he spiraled downward into what he is today.
Social mores must be socially constructed. To leave that up to the
individual is to descend into personal, ethical bankruptcy. Which he did,
IMO. Watching him degenerate into an NFT enthusiast was the last straw
for me, and by that point there wasn't enough straw to lose a needle in.

RIP indeed.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

Am 05.08.23 um 01:21 schrieb Spalls Hurgenson:
> Self-taught in an era when you could write
> games single-handedly, he has repeatedly shown that he does not have
> the necessary skill set to lead larger teams that develop the much
> more complicated games we expect today.
I agree here fully, but there is one aspect about him, which makes him
unbearable and I think he might be kind of a narcissist. If you follow
his interviews he was talking about being the greatest game designer
ever and also his role in the projects where he brags that he brought
the genre forward is questionable. UO was mostly Ralph Kosters Design
U4 also someone else seems to have brought the idea in to have a virtue
system and a philosophical plot, U7 was mostly Warren Spector and his
team, but in his interviews he gives seldomly credit to anyone then
himself. but also he seems to be "nice" enough that people fall for him
and his talks every time.
I am not sure when he took this turn, but I guess it must have also
something to do to live half your life outside of reality in your own
reality disortion field.
Btw. I am actually one of the few who really liked Ultima 8 and Ultima 9
the original plot and the idea of the game was way better than what
finally was delivered.

http://hacki.bootstrike.com/english/articles_orig_plot.htm

The idea of the game also basically was to go to similar mechanics like
they had with Ultima 7just in 3d, I guess most people would have been happy!
The problem was the team was disbanded to work on u9 and after that
Gariott took over and the rest was the desaster we all know about!

Am 05.08.23 um 02:28 schrieb Julian:
> I bet that it would revitalize Ultima if they sold it on Steam. Everyone holds out but eventually everything shows up on Steam.
The only company who really could revitalize it ATM probably is Larian,
they have the technology and knowledge to do it. But face it, it will
never happen, the game is now EAs and Gariott has some subrights to Lord
British etc.. aka minor aspects of the series.
Also the people who actually played Ultima are getting old by now, so
this is a small minority group. It only could be revitalized by a
hot/big name studio atm, and also not with the 15th clone of Ultima 4
like it seems to be the habit atm with trying to revive it!

Am 05.08.23 um 00:16 schrieb Julian:
> Are Ultima and Tabula Rasa related? I would have bought it if I knew that.
Both are Gariotts babies. Also since UO Gariott has been chasing his
never ending Don Quixote like dream to bring the next massive
multiplayer success out, and UO was not even his baby but Raph Kosters
design who came from a MUD background and created successful MMRPGS
after UO!

Am 03.08.23 um 23:13 schrieb Werner P.:
> While this is the action group, it still is the one read most. I found
> an interesting documentary on SOTA, basically some series die with a
> bang others with a blimp, Ultima died with... fraud deceive and
> ignorance and greed but we probably can consider it dead by now:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMxjwtxn6NI
>
> I basically gave finally up mentally on the series when SOTA basically
> instantly made a shift a few weeks after the kickstarter towards MMRPG
> and later moved towards an overpriced asset shop with a bad game
> attached to it.
>
> RIP Ultima!
Speaking of the end of Ultima, I am atm playing Baldurs Gate 3, thats
how a modern Ultima could look like. Man I love this game!

Absolut insane effort by Larian, no wonder all the other devs are scared
that this would become a new baseline for RPGs!

On 09/08/2023 21:01, Werner P. wrote:
> Am 03.08.23 um 23:13 schrieb Werner P.:
>> While this is the action group, it still is the one read most. I found
>> an interesting documentary on SOTA, basically some series die with a
>> bang others with a blimp, Ultima died with... fraud deceive and
>> ignorance and greed but we probably can consider it dead by now:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMxjwtxn6NI
>>
>> I basically gave finally up mentally on the series when SOTA basically
>> instantly made a shift a few weeks after the kickstarter towards MMRPG
>> and later moved towards an overpriced asset shop with a bad game
>> attached to it.
>>
>> RIP Ultima!
> Speaking of the end of Ultima, I am atm playing Baldurs Gate 3, thats
> how a modern Ultima could look like. Man I love this game!
>
> Absolut insane effort by Larian, no wonder all the other devs are scared
> that this would become a new baseline for RPGs!
>

When I first read some of the comments being made I thought they were
reasonable as I assumed what they were saying was this shouldn't be the
standard you judge CRPG's on from small/medium sized developers. Then it
dawned on what they actually meant was from triple-A games with their
massive budgets. It's a sad reflection on the games industry that a
number of big companies think it's perfectly acceptable to release games
that aren't really finished, are bug fests and lock away content behind
paywalls. Oh, you want a full game for £50, don't be silly, you have to
pay even more for that. Oh and we've made it easier to buy a battle pass
by putting it in the position you're likely to press and removed any
confirmation button!

I'm almost tempted to buy BG3 just to show my support.

On Thu, 10 Aug 2023 10:03:26 +0100, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:

>On 09/08/2023 21:01, Werner P. wrote:

>> Speaking of the end of Ultima, I am atm playing Baldurs Gate 3, thats
>> how a modern Ultima could look like. Man I love this game!

>> Absolut insane effort by Larian, no wonder all the other devs are scared
>> that this would become a new baseline for RPGs!

>When I first read some of the comments being made I thought they were
>reasonable as I assumed what they were saying was this shouldn't be the
>standard you judge CRPG's on from small/medium sized developers. Then it
>dawned on what they actually meant was from triple-A games with their
>massive budgets. It's a sad reflection on the games industry that a
>number of big companies think it's perfectly acceptable to release games
>that aren't really finished, are bug fests and lock away content behind
>paywalls. Oh, you want a full game for £50, don't be silly, you have to
>pay even more for that. Oh and we've made it easier to buy a battle pass
>by putting it in the position you're likely to press and removed any
>confirmation button!

>I'm almost tempted to buy BG3 just to show my support.

The amount of praise BG3 is getting is insane. Every gaming website
has dozens of articles on the topic. Not to dismiss the game itself,
but although I'd like to believe all the excitement is earnest, the
cynical part of me reminds me how easily people fall into the cycle of
hype, and it's only later that a product is critically viewed.

I mean, while I can easily accept the game is well made, and I /want/
to believe that the game is all that people claim, is "Baldur's Gate
3" really the second coming of RPGs that it's being made out to be?
Probably not.

More likely, all this excitement is just a reaction to actually
getting a GOOD game after years of AAA-pabulum being foisted upon us;
a reminder that not every game has to be a tired remake, a grindy
'live services' experience, or filled with microtransactions.

And for that, I too am tempted to buy the game.

I mean, not quite $60 USD-tempted... but tempted nonetheless. ;-)

On Thu, 10 Aug 2023 10:03:26 +0100, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action, JAB
wrote:

>On 09/08/2023 21:01, Werner P. wrote:
>> Am 03.08.23 um 23:13 schrieb Werner P.:
>>> While this is the action group, it still is the one read most. I found
>>> an interesting documentary on SOTA, basically some series die with a
>>> bang others with a blimp, Ultima died with... fraud deceive and
>>> ignorance and greed but we probably can consider it dead by now:
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMxjwtxn6NI
>>>
>>> I basically gave finally up mentally on the series when SOTA basically
>>> instantly made a shift a few weeks after the kickstarter towards MMRPG
>>> and later moved towards an overpriced asset shop with a bad game
>>> attached to it.
>>>
>>> RIP Ultima!
>> Speaking of the end of Ultima, I am atm playing Baldurs Gate 3, thats
>> how a modern Ultima could look like. Man I love this game!
>>
>> Absolut insane effort by Larian, no wonder all the other devs are scared
>> that this would become a new baseline for RPGs!
>>
>
>When I first read some of the comments being made I thought they were
>reasonable as I assumed what they were saying was this shouldn't be the
>standard you judge CRPG's on from small/medium sized developers. Then it
>dawned on what they actually meant was from triple-A games with their
>massive budgets. It's a sad reflection on the games industry that a
>number of big companies think it's perfectly acceptable to release games
>that aren't really finished, are bug fests and lock away content behind
>paywalls. Oh, you want a full game for £50, don't be silly, you have to
>pay even more for that. Oh and we've made it easier to buy a battle pass
>by putting it in the position you're likely to press and removed any
>confirmation button!
>
>I'm almost tempted to buy BG3 just to show my support.

Yeah, this one is on my "buy at full price ASAP" list just to support
this kind of development. I usually do the same with every CDPR release
because of the no DRM policy (not Cyberpunk though). Waiting for
September. May just take an advance on my mad money budget.

It has also received absolutely glowing reviews from the resident
Forgotten Realms fanboy who sits at my Wednesday night 5e table. He is
*really* impressed. If you're a fan of that setting, get in.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

On 10/08/2023 14:21, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Aug 2023 10:03:26 +0100, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
>
>> On 09/08/2023 21:01, Werner P. wrote:
>
>
>>> Speaking of the end of Ultima, I am atm playing Baldurs Gate 3, thats
>>> how a modern Ultima could look like. Man I love this game!
>
>>> Absolut insane effort by Larian, no wonder all the other devs are scared
>>> that this would become a new baseline for RPGs!
>
>> When I first read some of the comments being made I thought they were
>> reasonable as I assumed what they were saying was this shouldn't be the
>> standard you judge CRPG's on from small/medium sized developers. Then it
>> dawned on what they actually meant was from triple-A games with their
>> massive budgets. It's a sad reflection on the games industry that a
>> number of big companies think it's perfectly acceptable to release games
>> that aren't really finished, are bug fests and lock away content behind
>> paywalls. Oh, you want a full game for £50, don't be silly, you have to
>> pay even more for that. Oh and we've made it easier to buy a battle pass
>> by putting it in the position you're likely to press and removed any
>> confirmation button!
>
>> I'm almost tempted to buy BG3 just to show my support.
>
>
> The amount of praise BG3 is getting is insane. Every gaming website
> has dozens of articles on the topic. Not to dismiss the game itself,
> but although I'd like to believe all the excitement is earnest, the
> cynical part of me reminds me how easily people fall into the cycle of
> hype, and it's only later that a product is critically viewed.
>
> I mean, while I can easily accept the game is well made, and I /want/
> to believe that the game is all that people claim, is "Baldur's Gate
> 3" really the second coming of RPGs that it's being made out to be?
> Probably not.
>
> More likely, all this excitement is just a reaction to actually
> getting a GOOD game after years of AAA-pabulum being foisted upon us;
> a reminder that not every game has to be a tired remake, a grindy
> 'live services' experience, or filled with microtransactions.
>
> And for that, I too am tempted to buy the game.
>
> I mean, not quite $60 USD-tempted... but tempted nonetheless. ;-)
>

I'm not sure I'd describe it as hype but I agree with the overall
sentiment that a lot of the praise is pretty much this is what a £50
game should be instead of what we all normally served up with.

Am 10.08.23 um 11:03 schrieb JAB:
> Oh, you want a full game for £50, don't be silly, you have to pay even
> more for that. Oh and we've made it easier to buy a battle pass by
> putting it in the position you're likely to press and removed any
> confirmation button!
Thats basically parts of it, and yes probably the AAA management of
several companies was pretty shocked, how they would dare to release a
complete game without monetarysation and rake in a success.
But the there is a second thing, basically Larian is not a small company
anymore, they had 400 people working on the game and run their own
specialized engine. But they are not spending half the budget on
marketing instead they just release a playable first act, get the player
feedback and improve on it.

But the third thing is, this game is basically insane with its freedom
on how to do things, you can see left and right that 400 people worked
for seven years only on that game, and thats also an aspect why the big
AAA executives are scared, they do not want to replicate this love
effort Larian has done on D&D within their bugets given that they spend
often more on marketing than development!

Am 10.08.23 um 17:11 schrieb Zaghadka:
> It has also received absolutely glowing reviews from the resident
> Forgotten Realms fanboy who sits at my Wednesday night 5e table. He is
> *really* impressed. If you're a fan of that setting, get in.
The game is really good, is it perfect, hell no, is it bugfree, also
hell no. The camera controls for instance could be better, but the
polish which went into freedom on how you approach everything is
absolutely insane, add to that the typical heavy simulation aspects of
Larian games which stem directly from Ultima 7s ideas on how to approach
an RPG world and you know what I am talking about. The game feels a lot
like Dragon Age 1, but it is just better in pretty much every aspect!
The aspect I dislike most, but that is basically caused by the
underlying AD&D rules are the constant dice rolls you have to perform
on many actions!

On Thu, 10 Aug 2023 21:36:23 +0200, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
Werner P. wrote:

>Am 10.08.23 um 17:11 schrieb Zaghadka:
>> It has also received absolutely glowing reviews from the resident
>> Forgotten Realms fanboy who sits at my Wednesday night 5e table. He is
>> *really* impressed. If you're a fan of that setting, get in.
>The game is really good, is it perfect, hell no, is it bugfree, also
>hell no. The camera controls for instance could be better, but the
>polish which went into freedom on how you approach everything is
>absolutely insane, add to that the typical heavy simulation aspects of
>Larian games which stem directly from Ultima 7s ideas on how to approach
>an RPG world and you know what I am talking about. The game feels a lot
>like Dragon Age 1, but it is just better in pretty much every aspect!
>The aspect I dislike most, but that is basically caused by the
>underlying AD&D rules are the constant dice rolls you have to perform
>on many actions!

Agreed. Bought at full price. I had no problems running it off of
spinning rust with the "slow hard drive" option selected (I have lots of
RAM). I am, however, running it off of my system drive M.2 SSD. It leaves
precious little for anything else there as it comes in at a whopping
125gb.

But I'm loving it. As for a wish list, I just want the skill dice rolls
to stop with that excessive animation. It makes them take a *lot* more
time than they need to. Do you know of an option to turn it off?

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten