https://www.macrumors.com/2023/11/28/apple-goldman-sachs-partnership-ending/

"Goldman Sachs was new to consumer banking when the ‌Apple Card‌ launched, and to establish a deal with Apple, it is not collecting fees that many credit card issuers receive. The bank does not get a cut of the fee that merchants pay to Apple to accept the ‌Apple Card‌, nor is it able to collect annual fees, late fees, or foreign transaction fees."

How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:

"Goldman Sachs and Apple have worked together on the ‌Apple Card‌ since it launched in 2019, and have also teamed up for the high-yield Apple Savings account and the Apple Pay Later feature. The partnership has not gone smoothly, with Goldman Sachs running into customer service issues due to long wait times for disputed ‌Apple Card‌ transactions and issues with the Apple Savings account."

Goldman Sachs apparently receives only credit card and loan interest connected to Apple Card use. Apple benefits significantly at little expense.

On 11/29/23 9:52 AM, Thomas E. wrote:
> https://www.macrumors.com/2023/11/28/apple-goldman-sachs-partnership-ending/
>
> "Goldman Sachs was new to consumer banking when the ‌Apple Card‌ launched, and to establish a deal with Apple, it is not collecting fees that many credit card issuers receive. The bank does not get a cut of the fee that merchants pay to Apple to accept the ‌Apple Card‌, nor is it able to collect annual fees, late fees, or foreign transaction fees."
>
> How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:
>
> "Goldman Sachs and Apple have worked together on the ‌Apple Card‌ since it launched in 2019, and have also teamed up for the high-yield Apple Savings account and the Apple Pay Later feature. The partnership has not gone smoothly, with Goldman Sachs running into customer service issues due to long wait times for disputed ‌Apple Card‌ transactions and issues with the Apple Savings account."
>
> Goldman Sachs apparently receives only credit card and loan interest connected to Apple Card use. Apple benefits significantly at little expense.

Apple Card is a fine product. It will be better under a more
intelligent bank.

On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 1:30:36 PM UTC-5, John wrote:
> On 11/29/23 9:52 AM, Thomas E. wrote:
> > https://www.macrumors.com/2023/11/28/apple-goldman-sachs-partnership-ending/
> >
> > "Goldman Sachs was new to consumer banking when the ‌Apple Card‌ launched, and to establish a deal with Apple, it is not collecting fees that many credit card issuers receive. The bank does not get a cut of the fee that merchants pay to Apple to accept the ‌Apple Card‌, nor is it able to collect annual fees, late fees, or foreign transaction fees."
> >
> > How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:
> >
> > "Goldman Sachs and Apple have worked together on the ‌Apple Card‌ since it launched in 2019, and have also teamed up for the high-yield Apple Savings account and the Apple Pay Later feature. The partnership has not gone smoothly, with Goldman Sachs running into customer service issues due to long wait times for disputed ‌Apple Card‌ transactions and issues with the Apple Savings account."
> >
> > Goldman Sachs apparently receives only credit card and loan interest connected to Apple Card use. Apple benefits significantly at little expense.
> Apple Card is a fine product. It will be better under a more
> intelligent bank.

Really? Apple Card pays 3% cash back for a very few merchants, 2% on Apple Pay transactions and 1% on all else. Mine pays a 2% rebate on everything, including Apple Pay transactions and everything where Apple Pay does not work. Their so called "high Interest" 4.25% savings account falls short of my 5% FDIC-insured savings account. No thanks, I'll stick with my Visa and my bank.

On 11/29/23 10:30 AM, John wrote:
> On 11/29/23 9:52 AM, Thomas E. wrote:
>> https://www.macrumors.com/2023/11/28/apple-goldman-sachs-partnership-ending/
>>
>> "Goldman Sachs was new to consumer banking when the ‌Apple Card‌
>> launched, and to establish a deal with Apple, it is not collecting
>> fees that many credit card issuers receive. The bank does not get a
>> cut of the fee that merchants pay to Apple to accept the ‌Apple Card‌,
>> nor is it able to collect annual fees, late fees, or foreign
>> transaction fees."
>>
>> How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had
>> to pay for all the back-office expenses, including customer service
>> staff? Those expenses have been significant:
>>
>> "Goldman Sachs and Apple have worked together on the ‌Apple Card‌
>> since it launched in 2019, and have also teamed up for the high-yield
>> Apple Savings account and the Apple Pay Later feature. The partnership
>> has not gone smoothly, with Goldman Sachs running into customer
>> service issues due to long wait times for disputed ‌Apple Card‌
>> transactions and issues with the Apple Savings account."
>>
>> Goldman Sachs apparently receives only credit card and loan interest
>> connected to Apple Card use. Apple benefits significantly at little
>> expense.
>
>
>
> Apple Card is a fine product.  It will be better under a more
> intelligent bank.

Does your card allow you to buy a Apple laptop with 12 months of zero
interest?

On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 7:59:19 PM UTC-5, John wrote:
> On 11/29/23 10:30 AM, John wrote:
> > On 11/29/23 9:52 AM, Thomas E. wrote:
> >> https://www.macrumors.com/2023/11/28/apple-goldman-sachs-partnership-ending/
> >>
> >> "Goldman Sachs was new to consumer banking when the ‌Apple Card‌
> >> launched, and to establish a deal with Apple, it is not collecting
> >> fees that many credit card issuers receive. The bank does not get a
> >> cut of the fee that merchants pay to Apple to accept the ‌Apple Card‌,
> >> nor is it able to collect annual fees, late fees, or foreign
> >> transaction fees."
> >>
> >> How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had
> >> to pay for all the back-office expenses, including customer service
> >> staff? Those expenses have been significant:
> >>
> >> "Goldman Sachs and Apple have worked together on the ‌Apple Card‌
> >> since it launched in 2019, and have also teamed up for the high-yield
> >> Apple Savings account and the Apple Pay Later feature. The partnership
> >> has not gone smoothly, with Goldman Sachs running into customer
> >> service issues due to long wait times for disputed ‌Apple Card‌
> >> transactions and issues with the Apple Savings account."
> >>
> >> Goldman Sachs apparently receives only credit card and loan interest
> >> connected to Apple Card use. Apple benefits significantly at little
> >> expense.
> >
> >
> >
> > Apple Card is a fine product. It will be better under a more
> > intelligent bank.
> Does your card allow you to buy a Apple laptop with 12 months of zero
> interest?

No, I'd just pay cash and be done with it. Then too, the credit card rebates I got over the last 18 months would more than pay for a 14" M3 Pro chip model with 12‑core CPU, 18‑core GPU, 16‑core Neural Engine model

Or, has more than paid for all the fuel bill for both of our cars.

On 11/29/23 6:02 PM, Thomas E. wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 7:59:19 PM UTC-5, John wrote:
>> On 11/29/23 10:30 AM, John wrote:
>>> On 11/29/23 9:52 AM, Thomas E. wrote:
>>>> https://www.macrumors.com/2023/11/28/apple-goldman-sachs-partnership-ending/
>>>>
>>>> "Goldman Sachs was new to consumer banking when the ‌Apple Card‌
>>>> launched, and to establish a deal with Apple, it is not collecting
>>>> fees that many credit card issuers receive. The bank does not get a
>>>> cut of the fee that merchants pay to Apple to accept the ‌Apple Card‌,
>>>> nor is it able to collect annual fees, late fees, or foreign
>>>> transaction fees."
>>>>
>>>> How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had
>>>> to pay for all the back-office expenses, including customer service
>>>> staff? Those expenses have been significant:
>>>>
>>>> "Goldman Sachs and Apple have worked together on the ‌Apple Card‌
>>>> since it launched in 2019, and have also teamed up for the high-yield
>>>> Apple Savings account and the Apple Pay Later feature. The partnership
>>>> has not gone smoothly, with Goldman Sachs running into customer
>>>> service issues due to long wait times for disputed ‌Apple Card‌
>>>> transactions and issues with the Apple Savings account."
>>>>
>>>> Goldman Sachs apparently receives only credit card and loan interest
>>>> connected to Apple Card use. Apple benefits significantly at little
>>>> expense.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Apple Card is a fine product. It will be better under a more
>>> intelligent bank.
>> Does your card allow you to buy a Apple laptop with 12 months of zero
>> interest?
>
> No, I'd just pay cash and be done with it. Then too, the credit card rebates I got over the last 18 months would more than pay for a 14" M3 Pro chip model with 12‑core CPU, 18‑core GPU, 16‑core Neural Engine model
>
> Or, has more than paid for all the fuel bill for both of our cars.

LMAO!!!

On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 9:37:40 PM UTC-5, John wrote:
> On 11/29/23 6:02 PM, Thomas E. wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 7:59:19 PM UTC-5, John wrote:
> >> On 11/29/23 10:30 AM, John wrote:
> >>> On 11/29/23 9:52 AM, Thomas E. wrote:
> >>>> https://www.macrumors.com/2023/11/28/apple-goldman-sachs-partnership-ending/
> >>>>
> >>>> "Goldman Sachs was new to consumer banking when the ‌Apple Card‌
> >>>> launched, and to establish a deal with Apple, it is not collecting
> >>>> fees that many credit card issuers receive. The bank does not get a
> >>>> cut of the fee that merchants pay to Apple to accept the ‌Apple Card‌,
> >>>> nor is it able to collect annual fees, late fees, or foreign
> >>>> transaction fees."
> >>>>
> >>>> How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had
> >>>> to pay for all the back-office expenses, including customer service
> >>>> staff? Those expenses have been significant:
> >>>>
> >>>> "Goldman Sachs and Apple have worked together on the ‌Apple Card‌
> >>>> since it launched in 2019, and have also teamed up for the high-yield
> >>>> Apple Savings account and the Apple Pay Later feature. The partnership
> >>>> has not gone smoothly, with Goldman Sachs running into customer
> >>>> service issues due to long wait times for disputed ‌Apple Card‌
> >>>> transactions and issues with the Apple Savings account."
> >>>>
> >>>> Goldman Sachs apparently receives only credit card and loan interest
> >>>> connected to Apple Card use. Apple benefits significantly at little
> >>>> expense.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Apple Card is a fine product. It will be better under a more
> >>> intelligent bank.
> >> Does your card allow you to buy a Apple laptop with 12 months of zero
> >> interest?
> >
> > No, I'd just pay cash and be done with it. Then too, the credit card rebates I got over the last 18 months would more than pay for a 14" M3 Pro model with 12‑core CPU, 18‑core GPU, 16‑core Neural Engine model.
> >
> > Or, has more than paid for all the fuel bill for both of our cars.
> LMAO!!!

Really? Laughing at $2,306 in rebates, and that's just on my card? The wife has one with the same 2% cash back. Those rebates are not taxed either!

On 11/30/2023 6:19 AM, Thomas E. wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 9:37:40 PM UTC-5, John wrote:
>> On 11/29/23 6:02 PM, Thomas E. wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 7:59:19 PM UTC-5, John wrote:
>>>> On 11/29/23 10:30 AM, John wrote:
>>>>> On 11/29/23 9:52 AM, Thomas E. wrote:
>>>>>> https://www.macrumors.com/2023/11/28/apple-goldman-sachs-partnership-ending/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Goldman Sachs was new to consumer banking when the ‌Apple Card‌
>>>>>> launched, and to establish a deal with Apple, it is not collecting
>>>>>> fees that many credit card issuers receive. The bank does not get a
>>>>>> cut of the fee that merchants pay to Apple to accept the ‌Apple Card‌,
>>>>>> nor is it able to collect annual fees, late fees, or foreign
>>>>>> transaction fees."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had
>>>>>> to pay for all the back-office expenses, including customer service
>>>>>> staff? Those expenses have been significant:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Goldman Sachs and Apple have worked together on the ‌Apple Card‌
>>>>>> since it launched in 2019, and have also teamed up for the high-yield
>>>>>> Apple Savings account and the Apple Pay Later feature. The partnership
>>>>>> has not gone smoothly, with Goldman Sachs running into customer
>>>>>> service issues due to long wait times for disputed ‌Apple Card‌
>>>>>> transactions and issues with the Apple Savings account."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Goldman Sachs apparently receives only credit card and loan interest
>>>>>> connected to Apple Card use. Apple benefits significantly at little
>>>>>> expense.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Apple Card is a fine product. It will be better under a more
>>>>> intelligent bank.
>>>> Does your card allow you to buy a Apple laptop with 12 months of zero
>>>> interest?
>>>
>>> No, I'd just pay cash and be done with it. Then too, the credit card rebates I got over the last 18 months would more than pay for a 14" M3 Pro model with 12‑core CPU, 18‑core GPU, 16‑core Neural Engine model.
>>>
>>> Or, has more than paid for all the fuel bill for both of our cars.
>> LMAO!!!
>
> Really? Laughing at $2,306 in rebates, and that's just on my card? The wife has one with the same 2% cash back. Those rebates are not taxed either!

It is a laugh because you spent a lot of money via credit card and have
very few superior Apple products to show for it. I spent much less and
own every Apple product except for the new Mac Pro.

On Thursday, November 30, 2023 at 7:10:36 PM UTC-5, John wrote:
> On 11/30/2023 6:19 AM, Thomas E. wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 9:37:40 PM UTC-5, John wrote:
> >> On 11/29/23 6:02 PM, Thomas E. wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 7:59:19 PM UTC-5, John wrote:
> >>>> On 11/29/23 10:30 AM, John wrote:
> >>>>> On 11/29/23 9:52 AM, Thomas E. wrote:
> >>>>>> https://www.macrumors.com/2023/11/28/apple-goldman-sachs-partnership-ending/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "Goldman Sachs was new to consumer banking when the ‌Apple Card‌
> >>>>>> launched, and to establish a deal with Apple, it is not collecting
> >>>>>> fees that many credit card issuers receive. The bank does not get a
> >>>>>> cut of the fee that merchants pay to Apple to accept the ‌Apple Card‌,
> >>>>>> nor is it able to collect annual fees, late fees, or foreign
> >>>>>> transaction fees."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had
> >>>>>> to pay for all the back-office expenses, including customer service
> >>>>>> staff? Those expenses have been significant:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "Goldman Sachs and Apple have worked together on the ‌Apple Card‌
> >>>>>> since it launched in 2019, and have also teamed up for the high-yield
> >>>>>> Apple Savings account and the Apple Pay Later feature. The partnership
> >>>>>> has not gone smoothly, with Goldman Sachs running into customer
> >>>>>> service issues due to long wait times for disputed ‌Apple Card‌
> >>>>>> transactions and issues with the Apple Savings account."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Goldman Sachs apparently receives only credit card and loan interest
> >>>>>> connected to Apple Card use. Apple benefits significantly at little
> >>>>>> expense.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Apple Card is a fine product. It will be better under a more
> >>>>> intelligent bank.
> >>>> Does your card allow you to buy a Apple laptop with 12 months of zero
> >>>> interest?
> >>>
> >>> No, I'd just pay cash and be done with it. Then too, the credit card rebates I got over the last 18 months would more than pay for a 14" M3 Pro model with 12‑core CPU, 18‑core GPU, 16‑core Neural Engine model.
> >>>
> >>> Or, has more than paid for all the fuel bill for both of our cars.
> >> LMAO!!!
> >
> > Really? Laughing at $2,306 in rebates, and that's just on my card? The wife has one with the same 2% cash back. Those rebates are not taxed either!
> It is a laugh because you spent a lot of money via credit card and have
> very few superior Apple products to show for it. I spent much less and
> own every Apple product except for the new Mac Pro.

LMAO: I have the 256 gb iPhone 14 Pro on an unlimited 5G plan, 256 gb iPad 9 with unlimited cellular service, and an Apple Watch also with unlimited cellular service. I also have a top-of-the-line Dell XPS that is quick and reliable, albeit battery life is nowhere near the MacBook Pro. The wife has a 256 gb iPhone 14 on an unlimited 5G plan and a 256 gb iPad on unlimited celluar service. She will not give up her Charge 5. She thinks the Apple Watch is too big for her wrist.

FYI only all the cell service and our home internet is on unlimited Verizon 5G at under $200 a month. All in, we are under $300 a month including streaming TV subscriptions. Equivalent cable TV alone in our area is over $250 a month.

Not having an Apple credit card is absolutely no barrier to owning Apple devices. Why do you think so? Are you so short on cash that you can't buy Apple devices without a year to pay them off with 0 interest? I just charge them and pay off the card on time. In fact, since I paid off our only debt, our mortgage, back in March 2003 I have paid about $15 in interest, and that only because I missed one card payment date. We pay cash or we don't buy it. That includes new automobiles, home remodels,

I repeat, LMAO.

On Nov 29, 2023, Thomas E. wrote
(in article<60c525db-7865-41b2-b806-9ceb0376474en@googlegroups.com>):

> https://www.macrumors.com/2023/11/28/apple-goldman-sachs-partnership-ending/
>
> "Goldman Sachs was new to consumer banking when the ‌Apple Card‌
> launched, and to establish a deal with Apple, it is not collecting fees that
> many credit card issuers receive. The bank does not get a cut of the fee that
> merchants pay to Apple to accept the ‌Apple Card‌, nor is it able to
> collect annual fees, late fees, or foreign transaction fees."
>
> How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay
> for all the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those
> expenses have been significant:
>
> "Goldman Sachs and Apple have worked together on the ‌Apple Card‌ since
> it launched in 2019, and have also teamed up for the high-yield Apple Savings
> account and the Apple Pay Later feature. The partnership has not gone
> smoothly, with Goldman Sachs running into customer service issues due to long
> wait times for disputed ‌Apple Card‌ transactions and issues with the
> Apple Savings account."
>
> Goldman Sachs apparently receives only credit card and loan interest
> connected to Apple Card use. Apple benefits significantly at little expense.

Tim Cook was smarter than whoever GS had on charge of the project.

On 12/1/23 8:24 AM, Thomas E. wrote:
> On Thursday, November 30, 2023 at 7:10:36 PM UTC-5, John wrote:
>> On 11/30/2023 6:19 AM, Thomas E. wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 9:37:40 PM UTC-5, John wrote:
>>>> On 11/29/23 6:02 PM, Thomas E. wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 7:59:19 PM UTC-5, John wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/29/23 10:30 AM, John wrote:
>>>>>>> On 11/29/23 9:52 AM, Thomas E. wrote:
>>>>>>>> https://www.macrumors.com/2023/11/28/apple-goldman-sachs-partnership-ending/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Goldman Sachs was new to consumer banking when the ‌Apple Card‌
>>>>>>>> launched, and to establish a deal with Apple, it is not collecting
>>>>>>>> fees that many credit card issuers receive. The bank does not get a
>>>>>>>> cut of the fee that merchants pay to Apple to accept the ‌Apple Card‌,
>>>>>>>> nor is it able to collect annual fees, late fees, or foreign
>>>>>>>> transaction fees."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had
>>>>>>>> to pay for all the back-office expenses, including customer service
>>>>>>>> staff? Those expenses have been significant:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Goldman Sachs and Apple have worked together on the ‌Apple Card‌
>>>>>>>> since it launched in 2019, and have also teamed up for the high-yield
>>>>>>>> Apple Savings account and the Apple Pay Later feature. The partnership
>>>>>>>> has not gone smoothly, with Goldman Sachs running into customer
>>>>>>>> service issues due to long wait times for disputed ‌Apple Card‌
>>>>>>>> transactions and issues with the Apple Savings account."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Goldman Sachs apparently receives only credit card and loan interest
>>>>>>>> connected to Apple Card use. Apple benefits significantly at little
>>>>>>>> expense.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Apple Card is a fine product. It will be better under a more
>>>>>>> intelligent bank.
>>>>>> Does your card allow you to buy a Apple laptop with 12 months of zero
>>>>>> interest?
>>>>>
>>>>> No, I'd just pay cash and be done with it. Then too, the credit card rebates I got over the last 18 months would more than pay for a 14" M3 Pro model with 12‑core CPU, 18‑core GPU, 16‑core Neural Engine model.
>>>>>
>>>>> Or, has more than paid for all the fuel bill for both of our cars.
>>>> LMAO!!!
>>>
>>> Really? Laughing at $2,306 in rebates, and that's just on my card? The wife has one with the same 2% cash back. Those rebates are not taxed either!
>> It is a laugh because you spent a lot of money via credit card and have
>> very few superior Apple products to show for it. I spent much less and
>> own every Apple product except for the new Mac Pro.
>
> LMAO: I have the 256 gb iPhone 14 Pro on an unlimited 5G plan, 256 gb iPad 9 with unlimited cellular service, and an Apple Watch also with unlimited cellular service. I also have a top-of-the-line Dell XPS that is quick and reliable, albeit battery life is nowhere near the MacBook Pro. The wife has a 256 gb iPhone 14 on an unlimited 5G plan and a 256 gb iPad on unlimited celluar service. She will not give up her Charge 5. She thinks the Apple Watch is too big for her wrist.
>
> FYI only all the cell service and our home internet is on unlimited Verizon 5G at under $200 a month. All in, we are under $300 a month including streaming TV subscriptions. Equivalent cable TV alone in our area is over $250 a month.
>
> Not having an Apple credit card is absolutely no barrier to owning Apple devices. Why do you think so? Are you so short on cash that you can't buy Apple devices without a year to pay them off with 0 interest? I just charge them and pay off the card on time. In fact, since I paid off our only debt, our mortgage, back in March 2003 I have paid about $15 in interest, and that only because I missed one card payment date. We pay cash or we don't buy it. That includes new automobiles, home remodels,
>
> I repeat, LMAO.

LMAO!!!

On 12/1/23 8:24 AM, Thomas E. wrote:
> On Thursday, November 30, 2023 at 7:10:36 PM UTC-5, John wrote:
>> On 11/30/2023 6:19 AM, Thomas E. wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 9:37:40 PM UTC-5, John wrote:
>>>> On 11/29/23 6:02 PM, Thomas E. wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 7:59:19 PM UTC-5, John wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/29/23 10:30 AM, John wrote:
>>>>>>> On 11/29/23 9:52 AM, Thomas E. wrote:
>>>>>>>> https://www.macrumors.com/2023/11/28/apple-goldman-sachs-partnership-ending/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Goldman Sachs was new to consumer banking when the ‌Apple Card‌
>>>>>>>> launched, and to establish a deal with Apple, it is not collecting
>>>>>>>> fees that many credit card issuers receive. The bank does not get a
>>>>>>>> cut of the fee that merchants pay to Apple to accept the ‌Apple Card‌,
>>>>>>>> nor is it able to collect annual fees, late fees, or foreign
>>>>>>>> transaction fees."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had
>>>>>>>> to pay for all the back-office expenses, including customer service
>>>>>>>> staff? Those expenses have been significant:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Goldman Sachs and Apple have worked together on the ‌Apple Card‌
>>>>>>>> since it launched in 2019, and have also teamed up for the high-yield
>>>>>>>> Apple Savings account and the Apple Pay Later feature. The partnership
>>>>>>>> has not gone smoothly, with Goldman Sachs running into customer
>>>>>>>> service issues due to long wait times for disputed ‌Apple Card‌
>>>>>>>> transactions and issues with the Apple Savings account."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Goldman Sachs apparently receives only credit card and loan interest
>>>>>>>> connected to Apple Card use. Apple benefits significantly at little
>>>>>>>> expense.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Apple Card is a fine product. It will be better under a more
>>>>>>> intelligent bank.
>>>>>> Does your card allow you to buy a Apple laptop with 12 months of zero
>>>>>> interest?
>>>>>
>>>>> No, I'd just pay cash and be done with it. Then too, the credit card rebates I got over the last 18 months would more than pay for a 14" M3 Pro model with 12‑core CPU, 18‑core GPU, 16‑core Neural Engine model.
>>>>>
>>>>> Or, has more than paid for all the fuel bill for both of our cars.
>>>> LMAO!!!
>>>
>>> Really? Laughing at $2,306 in rebates, and that's just on my card? The wife has one with the same 2% cash back. Those rebates are not taxed either!
>> It is a laugh because you spent a lot of money via credit card and have
>> very few superior Apple products to show for it. I spent much less and
>> own every Apple product except for the new Mac Pro.
>
> LMAO: I have the 256 gb iPhone 14 Pro on an unlimited 5G plan, 256 gb iPad 9 with unlimited cellular service, and an Apple Watch also with unlimited cellular service. I also have a top-of-the-line Dell XPS that is quick and reliable, albeit battery life is nowhere near the MacBook Pro. The wife has a 256 gb iPhone 14 on an unlimited 5G plan and a 256 gb iPad on unlimited celluar service. She will not give up her Charge 5. She thinks the Apple Watch is too big for her wrist.
>
> FYI only all the cell service and our home internet is on unlimited Verizon 5G at under $200 a month. All in, we are under $300 a month including streaming TV subscriptions. Equivalent cable TV alone in our area is over $250 a month.
>
> Not having an Apple credit card is absolutely no barrier to owning Apple devices. Why do you think so? Are you so short on cash that you can't buy Apple devices without a year to pay them off with 0 interest? I just charge them and pay off the card on time. In fact, since I paid off our only debt, our mortgage, back in March 2003 I have paid about $15 in interest, and that only because I missed one card payment date. We pay cash or we don't buy it. That includes new automobiles, home remodels,
>
> I repeat, LMAO.

All I can do is laugh at such poor financial management.

On Friday, December 1, 2023 at 1:55:34 PM UTC-5, WolfFan wrote:
> On Nov 29, 2023, Thomas E. wrote
> (in article<60c525db-7865-41b2...@googlegroups.com>):
> > https://www.macrumors.com/2023/11/28/apple-goldman-sachs-partnership-ending/
> >
> > "Goldman Sachs was new to consumer banking when the ‌Apple Card‌
> > launched, and to establish a deal with Apple, it is not collecting fees that
> > many credit card issuers receive. The bank does not get a cut of the fee that
> > merchants pay to Apple to accept the ‌Apple Card‌, nor is it able to
> > collect annual fees, late fees, or foreign transaction fees."
> >
> > How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay
> > for all the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those
> > expenses have been significant:
> >
> > "Goldman Sachs and Apple have worked together on the ‌Apple Card‌ since
> > it launched in 2019, and have also teamed up for the high-yield Apple Savings
> > account and the Apple Pay Later feature. The partnership has not gone
> > smoothly, with Goldman Sachs running into customer service issues due to long
> > wait times for disputed ‌Apple Card‌ transactions and issues with the
> > Apple Savings account."
> >
> > Goldman Sachs apparently receives only credit card and loan interest
> > connected to Apple Card use. Apple benefits significantly at little expense.
> Tim Cook was smarter than whoever GS had on charge of the project.

Goldman was apparently anxious to get in the consumer finance business and Apple must have looked like an attractive partner. But, they gave away way too much. Word is that Goldman is also trying to back away from other deals in that space, including

GM https://money.usnews.com/investing/news/articles/2023-11-07/goldman-sachs-plans-to-offload-gm-credit-card-source

On Friday, December 1, 2023 at 5:12:41 PM UTC-5, John wrote:
> On 12/1/23 8:24 AM, Thomas E. wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 30, 2023 at 7:10:36 PM UTC-5, John wrote:
> >> On 11/30/2023 6:19 AM, Thomas E. wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 9:37:40 PM UTC-5, John wrote:
> >>>> On 11/29/23 6:02 PM, Thomas E. wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 7:59:19 PM UTC-5, John wrote:
> >>>>>> On 11/29/23 10:30 AM, John wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 11/29/23 9:52 AM, Thomas E. wrote:
> >>>>>>>> https://www.macrumors.com/2023/11/28/apple-goldman-sachs-partnership-ending/
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> "Goldman Sachs was new to consumer banking when the ‌Apple Card‌
> >>>>>>>> launched, and to establish a deal with Apple, it is not collecting
> >>>>>>>> fees that many credit card issuers receive. The bank does not get a
> >>>>>>>> cut of the fee that merchants pay to Apple to accept the ‌Apple Card‌,
> >>>>>>>> nor is it able to collect annual fees, late fees, or foreign
> >>>>>>>> transaction fees."
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had
> >>>>>>>> to pay for all the back-office expenses, including customer service
> >>>>>>>> staff? Those expenses have been significant:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> "Goldman Sachs and Apple have worked together on the ‌Apple Card‌
> >>>>>>>> since it launched in 2019, and have also teamed up for the high-yield
> >>>>>>>> Apple Savings account and the Apple Pay Later feature. The partnership
> >>>>>>>> has not gone smoothly, with Goldman Sachs running into customer
> >>>>>>>> service issues due to long wait times for disputed ‌Apple Card‌
> >>>>>>>> transactions and issues with the Apple Savings account."
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Goldman Sachs apparently receives only credit card and loan interest
> >>>>>>>> connected to Apple Card use. Apple benefits significantly at little
> >>>>>>>> expense.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Apple Card is a fine product. It will be better under a more
> >>>>>>> intelligent bank.
> >>>>>> Does your card allow you to buy a Apple laptop with 12 months of zero
> >>>>>> interest?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> No, I'd just pay cash and be done with it. Then too, the credit card rebates I got over the last 18 months would more than pay for a 14" M3 Pro model with 12‑core CPU, 18‑core GPU, 16‑core Neural Engine model.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Or, has more than paid for all the fuel bill for both of our cars.
> >>>> LMAO!!!
> >>>
> >>> Really? Laughing at $2,306 in rebates, and that's just on my card? The wife has one with the same 2% cash back. Those rebates are not taxed either!
> >> It is a laugh because you spent a lot of money via credit card and have
> >> very few superior Apple products to show for it. I spent much less and
> >> own every Apple product except for the new Mac Pro.
> >
> > LMAO: I have the 256 gb iPhone 14 Pro on an unlimited 5G plan, 256 gb iPad 9 with unlimited cellular service, and an Apple Watch also with unlimited cellular service. I also have a top-of-the-line Dell XPS that is quick and reliable, albeit battery life is nowhere near the MacBook Pro. The wife has a 256 gb iPhone 14 on an unlimited 5G plan and a 256 gb iPad on unlimited celluar service. She will not give up her Charge 5. She thinks the Apple Watch is too big for her wrist.
> >
> > FYI only all the cell service and our home internet is on unlimited Verizon 5G at under $200 a month. All in, we are under $300 a month including streaming TV subscriptions. Equivalent cable TV alone in our area is over $250 a month.
> >
> > Not having an Apple credit card is absolutely no barrier to owning Apple devices. Why do you think so? Are you so short on cash that you can't buy Apple devices without a year to pay them off with 0 interest? I just charge them and pay off the card on time. In fact, since I paid off our only debt, our mortgage, back in March 2003 I have paid about $15 in interest, and that only because I missed one card payment date. We pay cash or we don't buy it. That includes new automobiles, home remodels,
> >
> > I repeat, LMAO.
> All I can do is laugh at such poor financial management.

Really? How much did it cost me a year ago to pay with my credit card instead of the Apple card? My iPhone Pro, after trade cost, about $1,000 last November. There is the 1 point difference in rebate, so there is $10. My opportunity cost of cash a year ago was the 2% rebate I was earning on my money market account. But, if making monthly payments, the average balance on $1,000 is $500, so another $10. If paid off in in full in 12 months, $20. So, $30 max. That is about a tank of gas spread over 365 days, or 8 cents a day. Not material to my standard of living.

What is your other credit card that earns more than 1% on everything outside the 3% Apple and extremely limited 2% rebates for other payments? If it's not at least 2% that is VERY poor financial management. If it's more than 2% let me know and I'll switch.

On Sunday, December 3, 2023 at 8:17:01 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> On Thursday, November 30, 2023 at 9:19:39 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 9:37:40 PM UTC-5, John wrote:
> > > On 11/29/23 6:02 PM, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 7:59:19 PM UTC-5, John wrote:
> > > >> On 11/29/23 10:30 AM, John wrote:
> > > >>> On 11/29/23 9:52 AM, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > >>>> https://www.macrumors.com/2023/11/28/apple-goldman-sachs-partnership-ending/
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> "Goldman Sachs was new to consumer banking when the ‌Apple Card‌
> > > >>>> launched, and to establish a deal with Apple, it is not collecting
> > > >>>> fees that many credit card issuers receive. The bank does not get a
> > > >>>> cut of the fee that merchants pay to Apple to accept the ‌Apple Card‌,
> > > >>>> nor is it able to collect annual fees, late fees, or foreign
> > > >>>> transaction fees."
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had
> > > >>>> to pay for all the back-office expenses, including customer service
> > > >>>> staff? Those expenses have been significant:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> "Goldman Sachs and Apple have worked together on the ‌Apple Card‌
> > > >>>> since it launched in 2019, and have also teamed up for the high-yield
> > > >>>> Apple Savings account and the Apple Pay Later feature. The partnership
> > > >>>> has not gone smoothly, with Goldman Sachs running into customer
> > > >>>> service issues due to long wait times for disputed ‌Apple Card‌
> > > >>>> transactions and issues with the Apple Savings account."
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Goldman Sachs apparently receives only credit card and loan interest
> > > >>>> connected to Apple Card use. Apple benefits significantly at little
> > > >>>> expense.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Apple Card is a fine product. It will be better under a more
> > > >>> intelligent bank.
> > > >> Does your card allow you to buy a Apple laptop with 12 months of zero
> > > >> interest?
> > > >
> > > > No, I'd just pay cash and be done with it. Then too, the credit card rebates I got over the last 18 months would more than pay for a 14" M3 Pro model with 12‑core CPU, 18‑core GPU, 16‑core Neural Engine model.
> > > >
> > > > Or, has more than paid for all the fuel bill for both of our cars.
> > > LMAO!!!
> >
> > Really? Laughing at $2,306 in rebates, and that's just on my card? The wife has
> > one with the same 2% cash back. Those rebates are not taxed either!
> So this $2306 represents the 2% cash back on .. oh, $115,300 spent on that one card?
>
> Guess congratulations are in order for pushing to go so digital / cashless in the USA.
> BTW, what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC, such as for
> Municipal government, local businesses, etc? I’ve found these to often be 2% or more,
> which results in a negative net sum.
>
>
> -hh
Do you really think I would ever use that card when a surcharge would occur? No, for tax payments I use ACH debit or a check. The county does charge $1 for property tax ACH, a little more than the stamp to mail a check. I splurge and use ACH anyway for those spring and fall payments. No local businesses I know charge for credit card use. That's spread over 18 months too, about $6,000 a month. About right...

On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 9:57:47 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> On Sunday, December 3, 2023 at 11:03:02 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 3, 2023 at 8:17:01 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > On Thursday, November 30, 2023 at 9:19:39 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 9:37:40 PM UTC-5, John wrote:
> > > > > On 11/29/23 6:02 PM, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 7:59:19 PM UTC-5, John wrote:
> > > > > >> On 11/29/23 10:30 AM, John wrote:
> > > > > >>> On 11/29/23 9:52 AM, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > >>>> https://www.macrumors.com/2023/11/28/apple-goldman-sachs-partnership-ending/
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> "Goldman Sachs was new to consumer banking when the ‌Apple Card‌
> > > > > >>>> launched, and to establish a deal with Apple, it is not collecting
> > > > > >>>> fees that many credit card issuers receive. The bank does not get a
> > > > > >>>> cut of the fee that merchants pay to Apple to accept the ‌Apple Card‌,
> > > > > >>>> nor is it able to collect annual fees, late fees, or foreign
> > > > > >>>> transaction fees."
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had
> > > > > >>>> to pay for all the back-office expenses, including customer service
> > > > > >>>> staff? Those expenses have been significant:
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> "Goldman Sachs and Apple have worked together on the ‌Apple Card‌
> > > > > >>>> since it launched in 2019, and have also teamed up for the high-yield
> > > > > >>>> Apple Savings account and the Apple Pay Later feature. The partnership
> > > > > >>>> has not gone smoothly, with Goldman Sachs running into customer
> > > > > >>>> service issues due to long wait times for disputed ‌Apple Card‌
> > > > > >>>> transactions and issues with the Apple Savings account."
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Goldman Sachs apparently receives only credit card and loan interest
> > > > > >>>> connected to Apple Card use. Apple benefits significantly at little
> > > > > >>>> expense.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Apple Card is a fine product. It will be better under a more
> > > > > >>> intelligent bank.
> > > > > >> Does your card allow you to buy a Apple laptop with 12 months of zero
> > > > > >> interest?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No, I'd just pay cash and be done with it. Then too, the credit card rebates I got over the last 18 months would more than pay for a 14" M3 Pro model with 12‑core CPU, 18‑core GPU, 16‑core Neural Engine model.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Or, has more than paid for all the fuel bill for both of our cars.
> > > > > LMAO!!!
> > > >
> > > > Really? Laughing at $2,306 in rebates, and that's just on my card? The wife has
> > > > one with the same 2% cash back. Those rebates are not taxed either!
> > >
> > > So this $2306 represents the 2% cash back on .. oh, $115,300 spent on that one card?
> > >
> > > Guess congratulations are in order for pushing to go so digital / cashless in the USA.
> > > BTW, what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC, such as for
> > > Municipal government, local businesses, etc? I’ve found these to often be 2% or more,
> > > which results in a negative net sum.
> > >
> > >
> > > -hh
> > Do you really think I would ever use that card when a surcharge would occur?
> Based on your prior financial statements, yes.
> > No, for tax payments I use ACH debit or a check. The county does charge $1 for
> > property tax ACH, a little more than the stamp to mail a check. I splurge and use
> > ACH anyway for those spring and fall payments.
> Some are worse than others. Motor vehicle service is an example.
> > No local businesses I know charge for credit card use.
> Have you actually asked?
>
> Look for the subtle ‘cash or card?’ before they tell you how much.
> I’ve noticed that most of the small businesses here have done so.
> And that’s in addition to the guilt-tripping to add a tip.
> > That's spread over 18 months too, about $6,000 a month. About right...
> What credit card company uses an 18 month default period?
> All of the ones I’ve had who routinely provide summaries are annual.
>
>
> -hh

My Honda dealer and oil change businesses don't offer cash discounts. Neither does my car and home insurance provider. About the only places around here that do offer cash discounts are gas stations, and that's generally just 1% or so. We buy all gas at Costco anyway. If I had a Costco card I could get 4% cash back on gas, but I get 2% anyway. They also offer 3% back on travel and restaurants. Not worth the bother.

I ignore the tip offer unless I would have tipped anyway.

What do I do by ACH for a discount? Verizon, the Viking cruise we just bought (3% rebate), property taxes, income taxes, utilities, Netflix and the flying club (it's ACH only).

18 month default? WTF are you talking about? That about my monthly average spending on the Visa card. I pay it off every month. I've never defaulted on any debt.

Your are not very smart are you?

On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 4:27:28 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 1:43:12 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 9:57:47 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > On Sunday, December 3, 2023 at 11:03:02 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, December 3, 2023 at 8:17:01 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, November 30, 2023 at 9:19:39 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 9:37:40 PM UTC-5, John wrote:
> > > > > > > On 11/29/23 6:02 PM, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 7:59:19 PM UTC-5, John wrote:
> > > > > > > >> On 11/29/23 10:30 AM, John wrote:
> > > > > > > >>> On 11/29/23 9:52 AM, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>> https://www.macrumors.com/2023/11/28/apple-goldman-sachs-partnership-ending/
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> "Goldman Sachs was new to consumer banking when the ‌Apple Card‌
> > > > > > > >>>> launched, and to establish a deal with Apple, it is not collecting
> > > > > > > >>>> fees that many credit card issuers receive. The bank does not get a
> > > > > > > >>>> cut of the fee that merchants pay to Apple to accept the ‌Apple Card‌,
> > > > > > > >>>> nor is it able to collect annual fees, late fees, or foreign
> > > > > > > >>>> transaction fees."
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had
> > > > > > > >>>> to pay for all the back-office expenses, including customer service
> > > > > > > >>>> staff? Those expenses have been significant:
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> "Goldman Sachs and Apple have worked together on the ‌Apple Card‌
> > > > > > > >>>> since it launched in 2019, and have also teamed up for the high-yield
> > > > > > > >>>> Apple Savings account and the Apple Pay Later feature. The partnership
> > > > > > > >>>> has not gone smoothly, with Goldman Sachs running into customer
> > > > > > > >>>> service issues due to long wait times for disputed ‌Apple Card‌
> > > > > > > >>>> transactions and issues with the Apple Savings account."
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> Goldman Sachs apparently receives only credit card and loan interest
> > > > > > > >>>> connected to Apple Card use. Apple benefits significantly at little
> > > > > > > >>>> expense.
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> Apple Card is a fine product. It will be better under a more
> > > > > > > >>> intelligent bank.
> > > > > > > >> Does your card allow you to buy a Apple laptop with 12 months of zero
> > > > > > > >> interest?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > No, I'd just pay cash and be done with it. Then too, the credit card rebates I
> > > > > > > > got over the last 18 months would more than pay for a 14" M3 Pro model
> > > > > > > > with 12‑core CPU, 18‑core GPU, 16‑core Neural Engine model.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Or, has more than paid for all the fuel bill for both of our cars.
> > > > > > > LMAO!!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Really? Laughing at $2,306 in rebates, and that's just on my card? The wife has
> > > > > > one with the same 2% cash back. Those rebates are not taxed either!
> > > > >
> > > > > So this $2306 represents the 2% cash back on .. oh, $115,300 spent on that one card?
> > > > >
> > > > > Guess congratulations are in order for pushing to go so digital / cashless in the USA.
> > > > > BTW, what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC, such as for
> > > > > Municipal government, local businesses, etc? I’ve found these to often be 2% or more,
> > > > > which results in a negative net sum.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -hh
> > > > Do you really think I would ever use that card when a surcharge would occur?
> > > Based on your prior financial statements, yes.
> > > > No, for tax payments I use ACH debit or a check. The county does charge $1 for
> > > > property tax ACH, a little more than the stamp to mail a check. I splurge and use
> > > > ACH anyway for those spring and fall payments.
> > > Some are worse than others. Motor vehicle service is an example.
> > > > No local businesses I know charge for credit card use.
> > > Have you actually asked?
> > >
> > > Look for the subtle ‘cash or card?’ before they tell you how much.
> > > I’ve noticed that most of the small businesses here have done so.
> > > And that’s in addition to the guilt-tripping to add a tip.
> > > > That's spread over 18 months too, about $6,000 a month. About right....
> > >
> > > What credit card company uses an 18 month default period?
> > > All of the ones I’ve had who routinely provide summaries are annual.
> >
> > My Honda dealer and oil change businesses don't offer cash discounts.
> Shouldn’t it still be under warranty? How much are you spending on just your car?
> > Neither does my car and home insurance provider.
> Surcharge or not, do they even accept credit cards for payments?
> Actual credit, not debit card, as that has far fewer consumer protections..
> > About the only places around here that do offer cash discounts are gas
> > stations, and that's generally just 1% or so. We buy all gas at Costco anyway.
> > If I had a Costco card I could get 4% cash back on gas, but I get 2% anyway.
> > They also offer 3% back on travel and restaurants. Not worth the bother..
> >
> > I ignore the tip offer unless I would have tipped anyway.
> >
> > What do I do by ACH for a discount? Verizon, the Viking cruise we just bought
> > ( 3% rebate), property taxes, income taxes, utilities, Netflix and the flying club (it's ACH only).
>
> Because that’s a debit transaction, not credit.
> > 18 month default? WTF are you talking about? That about my monthly average
> > spending on the Visa card. I pay it off every month. I've never defaulted on any debt.
> >
> > Your are not very smart are you?
> “ Laughing at $2,306 in rebates, …”
> Clarified later as:
> “That's spread over 18 months too, about $6,000 a month. About right...”
>
> If it had been annual, it would be just ~$1537 (2% of $76,866, which is $6400/mo)
> instead $2306 as 2% of $115.3K. Why don’t you just try a bigger brag attempt by
> using a three or five year rebate accumulation?
>
> -hh

There you go again, making assumptions with no basis in facts. My car is out of warranty, but more to the point the wife's CRV is a 2015 getting close to 100k. We had an $1,800 engine problem, and yes the dealer took my credit card. Other than that we do all our routine maintenance at a dealer. I also just replaced the Accord's OEM tires at 40k miles and paid with a credit card.

That's right, the flying club and county government do not get charged for anyone's payments. But guess what, most businesses do.

Yes, Allstate accepts credit cards. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hId3pRCATfW7hY7Rh5mDmrRl_dGYkXbG/view?usp=sharing

The $6,000 number refers to recent monthly Visa spend rate to get the rebates. Obviously, you idiot.

As for a longer time period, I could do that. The current Visa card is a switch from 2% cash back Mastercard that happened about 18 months ago. The Mastercard rebates go back to early 2018, 5+ years ago. Why switch? Costco does not take Mastercard, and we shop there. I had a Visa as a backup that was used at Costco, but it only pays 1.5%. So I switched, mainly to consolidate everything on a single card.

Do you use a cash-back credit card? Free and tax free money is a good thing.. Especially when you have the discipline and ability to totally avoid interest and late charges. :)

On Tuesday, December 5, 2023 at 12:34:57 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 9:33:20 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 4:27:28 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 1:43:12 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 9:57:47 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, December 3, 2023 at 11:03:02 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > On Sunday, December 3, 2023 at 8:17:01 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > On Thursday, November 30, 2023 at 9:19:39 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 9:37:40 PM UTC-5, John wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On 11/29/23 6:02 PM, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 7:59:19 PM UTC-5, John wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >> On 11/29/23 10:30 AM, John wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >>> On 11/29/23 9:52 AM, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >>>> https://www.macrumors.com/2023/11/28/apple-goldman-sachs-partnership-ending/
> > > > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>> "Goldman Sachs was new to consumer banking when the ‌Apple Card‌
> > > > > > > > > >>>> launched, and to establish a deal with Apple, it is not collecting
> > > > > > > > > >>>> fees that many credit card issuers receive. The bank does not get a
> > > > > > > > > >>>> cut of the fee that merchants pay to Apple to accept the ‌Apple Card‌,
> > > > > > > > > >>>> nor is it able to collect annual fees, late fees, or foreign
> > > > > > > > > >>>> transaction fees."
> > > > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>> How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had
> > > > > > > > > >>>> to pay for all the back-office expenses, including customer service
> > > > > > > > > >>>> staff? Those expenses have been significant:
> > > > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>> "Goldman Sachs and Apple have worked together on the ‌Apple Card‌
> > > > > > > > > >>>> since it launched in 2019, and have also teamed up for the high-yield
> > > > > > > > > >>>> Apple Savings account and the Apple Pay Later feature. The partnership
> > > > > > > > > >>>> has not gone smoothly, with Goldman Sachs running into customer
> > > > > > > > > >>>> service issues due to long wait times for disputed ‌Apple Card‌
> > > > > > > > > >>>> transactions and issues with the Apple Savings account."
> > > > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>> Goldman Sachs apparently receives only credit card and loan interest
> > > > > > > > > >>>> connected to Apple Card use. Apple benefits significantly at little
> > > > > > > > > >>>> expense.
> > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > >>> Apple Card is a fine product. It will be better under a more
> > > > > > > > > >>> intelligent bank.
> > > > > > > > > >> Does your card allow you to buy a Apple laptop with 12 months of zero
> > > > > > > > > >> interest?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > No, I'd just pay cash and be done with it. Then too, the credit card rebates I
> > > > > > > > > > got over the last 18 months would more than pay for a 14" M3 Pro model
> > > > > > > > > > with 12‑core CPU, 18‑core GPU, 16‑core Neural Engine model.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Or, has more than paid for all the fuel bill for both of our cars.
> > > > > > > > > LMAO!!!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Really? Laughing at $2,306 in rebates, and that's just on my card? The wife has
> > > > > > > > one with the same 2% cash back. Those rebates are not taxed either!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So this $2306 represents the 2% cash back on .. oh, $115,300 spent on that one card?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Guess congratulations are in order for pushing to go so digital / cashless in the USA.
> > > > > > > BTW, what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC, such as for
> > > > > > > Municipal government, local businesses, etc? I’ve found these to often be 2% or more,
> > > > > > > which results in a negative net sum.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -hh
> > > > > > Do you really think I would ever use that card when a surcharge would occur?
> > > > > Based on your prior financial statements, yes.
> > > > > > No, for tax payments I use ACH debit or a check. The county does charge $1 for
> > > > > > property tax ACH, a little more than the stamp to mail a check. I splurge and use
> > > > > > ACH anyway for those spring and fall payments.
> > > > > Some are worse than others. Motor vehicle service is an example.
> > > > > > No local businesses I know charge for credit card use.
> > > > > Have you actually asked?
> > > > >
> > > > > Look for the subtle ‘cash or card?’ before they tell you how much.
> > > > > I’ve noticed that most of the small businesses here have done so.
> > > > > And that’s in addition to the guilt-tripping to add a tip..
> > > > > > That's spread over 18 months too, about $6,000 a month. About right...
> > > > >
> > > > > What credit card company uses an 18 month default period?
> > > > > All of the ones I’ve had who routinely provide summaries are annual.
> > > >
> > > > My Honda dealer and oil change businesses don't offer cash discounts.
> > > Shouldn’t it still be under warranty? How much are you spending on just your car?
> > > > Neither does my car and home insurance provider.
> > > Surcharge or not, do they even accept credit cards for payments?
> > > Actual credit, not debit card, as that has far fewer consumer protections.
> > > > About the only places around here that do offer cash discounts are gas
> > > > stations, and that's generally just 1% or so. We buy all gas at Costco anyway.
> > > > If I had a Costco card I could get 4% cash back on gas, but I get 2% anyway.
> > > > They also offer 3% back on travel and restaurants. Not worth the bother.
> > > >
> > > > I ignore the tip offer unless I would have tipped anyway.
> > > >
> > > > What do I do by ACH for a discount? Verizon, the Viking cruise we just bought
> > > > ( 3% rebate), property taxes, income taxes, utilities, Netflix and the flying club (it's ACH only).
> > >
> > > Because that’s a debit transaction, not credit.
> > > > 18 month default? WTF are you talking about? That about my monthly average
> > > > spending on the Visa card. I pay it off every month. I've never defaulted on any debt.
> > > >
> > > > Your are not very smart are you?
> > > “ Laughing at $2,306 in rebates, …”
> > > Clarified later as:
> > > “That's spread over 18 months too, about $6,000 a month. About right...”
> > >
> > > If it had been annual, it would be just ~$1537 (2% of $76,866, which is $6400/mo)
> > > instead $2306 as 2% of $115.3K. Why don’t you just try a bigger brag attempt by
> > > using a three or five year rebate accumulation?
> > >
> > > -hh
> > There you go again, making assumptions with no basis in facts.
> What you’ve been describing is a riskless arbitrage - the financial equivalent of
> a perpetual motion machine. That’s why I commented.
> > My car is out of warranty, but more to the point the wife's CRV is a 2015 getting
> > close to 100k. We had an $1,800 engine problem, and yes the dealer took my credit card.
> Ah, so it was a repair on your wife’s older car that you’re taking 2% credit for.
> Check.
> > That's right, the flying club and county government do not get charged for
> > anyone's payments. But guess what, most businesses do.
> Which merely narrows where you might apply your arbitrage attempt.
> > Yes, Allstate accepts credit cards. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hId3pRCATfW7hY7Rh5mDmrRl_dGYkXbG/view?usp=sharing
> Ok. Of course, these are typically offered in conjunction with “easy payment plans”
> which commonly contain higher net annualized rates. Opting for multiple payments
> may make sense to consider in a high interest rate environment, but we’ve not been
> in that sort of fiscal situation in the US for nearly thirty years (and the supplier can also
> just adjust the effective finance rate).
>
> In any event, we’ve been using a Mutual, so we classically get an end-of-FY rebate of ~10%.
> > The $6,000 number refers to recent monthly Visa spend rate to get the rebates. Obviously, you idiot.
> Except that $115,300 over just 12 months would have been a ~$10K/month burn rate.
> > As for a longer time period, I could do that. The current Visa card is a switch from 2%
> > cash back Mastercard that happened about 18 months ago.
> An admission that your use of the 18 month timescale was effectively arbitrary on your part:
> > The Mastercard rebates go back to early 2018, 5+ years ago.
> And other cash-backs - even if you didn’t personally employ them - go back many more years.
> > Do you use a cash-back credit card?
> Of course .. but only when it makes sense to do so. When there’s the likes of a 2%-3% CC
> surcharge, i’ll pay cash. I’ll also offer to not use CCs with established small business
> relationships I have on larger purchases even when there is no surcharge, as it puts a more
> money into their pockets, such as when buying a full set of car tires (Diane says that her
> husband doesn’t need free doughnuts!).
> > Free and tax free money is a good thing. Especially when you have the discipline
> > and ability to totally avoid interest and late charges. :)
> Except for how it isn’t tax free, of course. Maybe you’ll figure it out someday.
>
> -hh

On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
> But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private." It's printed right there on our money.

what law would that be?

There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.

there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71

On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
> > But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private." It's printed right there on our money.
> what law would that be?
>
> There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
> https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
>
> there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:
> https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71

True, but my point was that checks and credit cards are not cash. The other options mentioned are of course also government-backed and can be readily converted to cash. Stocks, private bonds, real property, etc. have value too. But they are not money either.

On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
> > > It's printed right there on our money.
> >
> > what law would that be?
> >
> > There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
> > https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
> >
> > there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:
> > https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
> This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
>
> Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
> half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
>
> -hh

Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal. Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had one problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.

I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open. Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live. Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash? I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carrying cash or a checkbook everywhere. An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.

On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
> > > > > It's printed right there on our money.
> > > >
> > > > what law would that be?
> > > >
> > > > There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
> > > > https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
> > > >
> > > > there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:
> > > > https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
> > > This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
> > >
> > > Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
> > > half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
> > >
> >
> > Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.
> Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
> > Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had one
> > problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
> > I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.
> Having the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
> > I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.
> Read further down on your same page & add.
> > Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.
> Which is sheltered within large chains.
> > Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?
> That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
> Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
> > I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carrying
> > cash or a checkbook everywhere.
> The checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
> perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
> few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
> higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
> > An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.
> As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
>
> -hh

I do not deny that 3% is better than 2%. I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card. I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at Target and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store. This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases. My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point. You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.

So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might be able to negotiate with. A few local restaurants, the dry cleaner, some purchases at local events etc. Not many, but an artist that was having a bad day at an art fair sold us a painting at a substantial cash discount and threw in the frame.

By the way, there is risk in every transaction we make, even for cash.

On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
> > > > > > > It's printed right there on our money.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > what law would that be?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
> > > > > > https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:
> > > > > > https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
> > > > > This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
> > > > >
> > > > > Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
> > > > > half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.
> > > Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
> > > > Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits.. I only had one
> > > > problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
> > > > I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions..
> > > Having the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
> > > > I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.
> > > Read further down on your same page & add.
> > > > Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.
> > > Which is sheltered within large chains.
> > > > Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?
> > > That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
> > > Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
> > > > I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carrying
> > > > cash or a checkbook everywhere.
> > > The checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
> > > perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
> > > few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
> > > higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
> > > > An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.
> > > As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
> > >
> > > -hh
> > I do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
> Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.
> > I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.
> Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
> > I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at Target
> > and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
> It’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
> > This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.
> > My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
> Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
> with your comment being:
>
> “How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
> the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
>
> The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
> break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
> that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
> > You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.
> Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
> > So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
> > be able to negotiate with. …
>
> Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
>
> In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
> found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
>
> Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
> < https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
>
> One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
>
> -hh
The offer was 3% for ACH or full price on a card. That was it, cash was not an option. Businesses build credit card fees into their pricing. I'm not costing them anything. As for the Target card that's a debit from my checking account. No extra bother at all. It's not a separate account to track, that's one reason I have it.

On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
> > > > > > > It's printed right there on our money.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > what law would that be?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
> > > > > > https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:
> > > > > > https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
> > > > > This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
> > > > >
> > > > > Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
> > > > > half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.
> > > Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
> > > > Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits.. I only had one
> > > > problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
> > > > I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions..
> > > Having the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
> > > > I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.
> > > Read further down on your same page & add.
> > > > Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.
> > > Which is sheltered within large chains.
> > > > Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?
> > > That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
> > > Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
> > > > I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carrying
> > > > cash or a checkbook everywhere.
> > > The checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
> > > perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
> > > few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
> > > higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
> > > > An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.
> > > As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
> > >
> > > -hh
> > I do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
> Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.
> > I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.
> Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
> > I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at Target
> > and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
> It’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
> > This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.
> > My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
> Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
> with your comment being:
>
> “How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
> the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
>
> The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
> break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
> that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
> > You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.
> Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
> > So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
> > be able to negotiate with. …
>
> Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
>
> In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
> found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
>
> Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
> < https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
>
> One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
>
> -hh

The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.

You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?

Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a number there it was an example, not an actual organization site. The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything even close to that number, and there is no alternative offered!

Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspx
Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%.

I'm finding out that you are an even bigger liar than Alan Baker!

On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 5:46:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 1:16:20 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E.. wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
> > > > > > > > > > It's printed right there on our money.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > what law would that be?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
> > > > > > > > > https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:
> > > > > > > > > https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
> > > > > > > > This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
> > > > > > > > half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.
> > > > > > Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
> > > > > > > Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had one
> > > > > > > problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
> > > > > > > I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.
> > > > > > Having the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
> > > > > > > I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.
> > > > > > Read further down on your same page & add.
> > > > > > > Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.
> > > > > > Which is sheltered within large chains.
> > > > > > > Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?
> > > > > > That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
> > > > > > Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
> > > > > > > I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carrying
> > > > > > > cash or a checkbook everywhere.
> > > > > > The checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
> > > > > > perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
> > > > > > few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
> > > > > > higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
> > > > > > > An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.
> > > > > > As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -hh
> > > > > I do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
> > > > Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.
> > > > > I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.
> > > > Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
> > > > > I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at Target
> > > > > and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
> > > > It’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
> > > > > This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.
> > > > > My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
> > > > Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
> > > > with your comment being:
> > > >
> > > > “How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
> > > > the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
> > > >
> > > > The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
> > > > break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
> > > > that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
> > > > > You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.
> > > > Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
> > > > > So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
> > > > > be able to negotiate with. …
> > > >
> > > > Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
> > > >
> > > > In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
> > > > found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
> > > >
> > > > Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
> > > > < https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
> > > >
> > > > One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
> > > >
> > >
> > > The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.
> > Nope, it is this thread.
> > > You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?
> > False, for I didn't claim to be negotiating, as my original comment was: "...what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC[?]"
> >
> > FYI, the first use of the term 'negotiate' came from you, on Dec 5, 2023, 6:37:24 PM:
> > "You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant
> > chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?"
> > > Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a number
> > > there it was an example, not an actual organization site.
> > Wrong: it is the redirect from the charity. Here's their top page, and when you click on their
> > 'donate' link it takes you to the classy.org page that I cited:
> >
> > <https://mmsc.org>
> > > The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything even
> > > close to that number,
> > Because you've never bothered to have looked.
> >
> > > ... and there is no alternative offered!
> >
> > Sure there is: one can snail mail them a personal check.
> > > Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspx
> > > Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%..
> > No need to, because your first cite from Forbes *did* explain it: there's more than one entity taking a cut.
> >
> > -hh
> Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.

It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to.
Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google:
< https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>