On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 5:46:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 1:16:20 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E.. wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
> > > > > > > > > > It's printed right there on our money.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > what law would that be?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
> > > > > > > > > https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:
> > > > > > > > > https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
> > > > > > > > This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
> > > > > > > > half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.
> > > > > > Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
> > > > > > > Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had one
> > > > > > > problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
> > > > > > > I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.
> > > > > > Having the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
> > > > > > > I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.
> > > > > > Read further down on your same page & add.
> > > > > > > Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.
> > > > > > Which is sheltered within large chains.
> > > > > > > Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?
> > > > > > That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
> > > > > > Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
> > > > > > > I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carrying
> > > > > > > cash or a checkbook everywhere.
> > > > > > The checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
> > > > > > perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
> > > > > > few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
> > > > > > higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
> > > > > > > An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.
> > > > > > As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -hh
> > > > > I do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
> > > > Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.
> > > > > I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.
> > > > Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
> > > > > I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at Target
> > > > > and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
> > > > It’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
> > > > > This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.
> > > > > My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
> > > > Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
> > > > with your comment being:
> > > >
> > > > “How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
> > > > the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
> > > >
> > > > The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
> > > > break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
> > > > that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
> > > > > You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.
> > > > Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
> > > > > So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
> > > > > be able to negotiate with. …
> > > >
> > > > Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
> > > >
> > > > In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
> > > > found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
> > > >
> > > > Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
> > > > < https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
> > > >
> > > > One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
> > > >
> > >
> > > The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.
> > Nope, it is this thread.
> > > You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?
> > False, for I didn't claim to be negotiating, as my original comment was: "...what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC[?]"
> >
> > FYI, the first use of the term 'negotiate' came from you, on Dec 5, 2023, 6:37:24 PM:
> > "You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant
> > chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?"
> > > Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a number
> > > there it was an example, not an actual organization site.
> > Wrong: it is the redirect from the charity. Here's their top page, and when you click on their
> > 'donate' link it takes you to the classy.org page that I cited:
> >
> > <https://mmsc.org>
> > > The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything even
> > > close to that number,
> > Because you've never bothered to have looked.
> >
> > > ... and there is no alternative offered!
> >
> > Sure there is: one can snail mail them a personal check.
> > > Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspx
> > > Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%..
> > No need to, because your first cite from Forbes *did* explain it: there's more than one entity taking a cut.
> >
> > -hh
> Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.

It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to.
Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google:
< https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>

>
> Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.

I already told you: continue to scroll down.

> You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.

They send out mailers too, particularly for prior donors.
Motivation to pay by CC online is that one might not make it within the tax year.
Plus they’ve also been in CFC for payroll deductions.

-hh