On Monday, September 4, 2023 at 7:04:09 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Sun, 3 Sep 2023 20:42:07 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden
> <daud....@gmail.com> scribeva:
> >Is the song in Portuguese?
> Don't know, can't it well enough.

Hear?
> >Is the woman speaking Portuguese?
> Yes, Brazilian Portuguese.

Ok, thanks.
The video was posted to youtube by "anak busabos" which is philipino for child (of) slave(s). Although 'Brazil' was shown, I thought it might possibly have been from Philippines or Indonesia, where fossils of archaic Homo have been found, Homo erectus, Homo floresiensis, Homo luzonensis, all with large brow ridges and small braincases. There is also a photo of a Tasmanian aboriginie with distinct brow ridges.

> >The dancing man may have been born with zika virus (or
> >genetic disorder).
> Possibly, yes.
> >Some physical resemblance to early human features.
> >
> >https://youtu.be/klRwa-erSQA?si=lNZihdq8WJCH8XL9
> --
> Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

On Monday, September 4, 2023 at 7:00:34 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Sat, 2 Sep 2023 14:42:37 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden
> <daud....@gmail.com> scribeva:
> >On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 1:51:05?PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> Sat, 2 Sep 2023 04:37:02 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden
> >> <daud....@gmail.com> scribeva:
> >>
> >> >On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 5:46:14?AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> >> >> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 4:07:25?AM UTC+2, Daud Deden wrote:
> >> >> > Perhaps Dutch veld/field related to pelt, grain stalks sticking up like hair (bold, bald?)
> >> >> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/veld#Etymology_3
> >> >> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vilt#Etymology
> >> >> So no, they're unrelated. The spellings with -d and -t (not regarding
> >> >> Auslautverhärtung) already point in that direction, as do English felt
> >> >> and field.
> >> >
> >> >Afaik, veld refers to open grassland vs closed forest, it does not describe a dried salt lake which is also flat and open, so likely it describes a patch of land with vertical stalks of grains, growing like the hairs on the skin.
> >> >
> >> >Otoh, vilt is wild game vs domestic fauna, unrelated to felt or field..
> >> I referred to [nl] vilt = en [felt], a material.
> >
> >Ok. (You transposed the brackets.)
> >>
> >> Not to the Norwegian word vilt,
> >> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vilt#Norwegian_Bokm%C3%A5l, (both [nb]
> >> and [nn]), which, I read, is a borrowing from Middle Low German wilt,
> >> and so cognate with Dutch and English wild. Dutch wild has the vowel
> >> of English will, not of wild,
> >
> >wild vs wilderness = will vs willingness
> >
> >and the word, as a noun, also means
> >> game: wild animals that can be hunted for food.
> >>
> >> In your method of etymology, you like to lump those all together based
> >> on superficial similarity, but that is incorrect.
> >> --
> >> Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com
> Please user proper software that properly skips the sig when quoting,
> or remove it yourself.

Why? It shows the comment author clearly. And, beneficially, it is something from you with which we agree on completely; most of the rest of your words seem to always disagree with me, but your sig is reliably correct and uncontaminated by occasionally questionable wikipedia cites. ;~}

> >No, sound and semantics both critical.
> Etymology should have a higher priority than sound and semantics, when
> doing etymology.

Paleo-etymology stands upon sound & semantic evolution in the development of human language and its derived dialects.
> --
> Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

Copacetic

I once thought it was spelled cop-aesthetic, as it is used mostly by cops. Unknown origin.

copacetic (adj.)
"fine, excellent, going well," 1919, but it may have origins in 19c. U.S. Southern black speech. Origin unknown; suspects include Latin, Yiddish (Hebrew kol b'seder), Italian, Louisiana French (coupe-sétique), and Native American. Among linguists, none is considered especially convincing. The popularization, and sometimes the invention, of the word often is attributed to U.S. entertainer Bill "Bojangles" Robinson (1878-1949).

Copacetic xyua(m)buat(l)ach (coincidental similarity?)

On Tuesday, September 5, 2023 at 2:43:48 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:

> Copacetic
>
> I once thought it was spelled cop-aesthetic, as it is used mostly by cops.. Unknown origin.
>
> copacetic (adj.)
> "fine, excellent, going well," 1919, but it may have origins in 19c. U.S. Southern black speech. Origin unknown; suspects include Latin, Yiddish (Hebrew kol b'seder), Italian, Louisiana French (coupe-sétique), and Native American. Among linguists, none is considered especially convincing. The popularization, and sometimes the invention, of the word often is attributed to U.S. entertainer Bill "Bojangles" Robinson (1878-1949).
>
> Copacetic xyua(m)buat(l)ach (coincidental similarity?)

EVERYTHING you invent that starts with "xyua" is "coincidental."

Are y9o ever going to explain what "xyua" comes from and indicates?

On Tuesday, September 5, 2023 at 9:17:37 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 5, 2023 at 2:43:48 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
>
> > Copacetic
> >
> > I once thought it was spelled cop-aesthetic, as it is used mostly by cops. Unknown origin.
> >
> > copacetic (adj.)
> > "fine, excellent, going well," 1919, but it may have origins in 19c. U.S. Southern black speech. Origin unknown; suspects include Latin, Yiddish (Hebrew kol b'seder), Italian, Louisiana French (coupe-sétique), and Native American. Among linguists, none is considered especially convincing. The popularization, and sometimes the invention, of the word often is attributed to U.S. entertainer Bill "Bojangles" Robinson (1878-1949).
> >
> > Copacetic xyua(m)buat(l)ach (coincidental similarity?)
> EVERYTHING you invent that starts with "xyua" is "coincidental."

Or cognate.

> Are y9o ever going to explain what "xyua" comes from and indicates?

It most often relates to passageway/change/transit between different environments eg in womb vs birthed, in home vs outside, (ex)change, chamber, gua/cave, cab.in. I did not anticipate that originally, as I thought xyuambuatl referred to seasonal community feasts which involved (re)defining the communal boundaries, which is a specialized derivation.
As a physical object, xyuambuatl = domeshield, as the most primitive shelter (terrestrial, constructed, near open water cf beaver lodge but transportable, derived from arboreal hominoid bowl nest), may be the approximate equivalent (modern: dome tent; historical tipi@Dakota; shield/ximalli@Azt, teba@Hbr: ark, basket, mongolu@Mbuti, mengelap@Mly, etc. Inverted and carried, referred to cargo/capacity/cum/sum/combi/co-/cup/quaff etc.

I googled (coupe-sétique) and found only references to copacetic. A real word in Louisiana French?

On Tuesday, September 5, 2023 at 10:15:59 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 5, 2023 at 9:17:37 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 5, 2023 at 2:43:48 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> >
> > > Copacetic
> > >
> > > I once thought it was spelled cop-aesthetic, as it is used mostly by cops. Unknown origin.
> > >
> > > copacetic (adj.)
> > > "fine, excellent, going well," 1919, but it may have origins in 19c. U.S. Southern black speech. Origin unknown; suspects include Latin, Yiddish (Hebrew kol b'seder), Italian, Louisiana French (coupe-sétique), and Native American. Among linguists, none is considered especially convincing. The popularization, and sometimes the invention, of the word often is attributed to U.S. entertainer Bill "Bojangles" Robinson (1878-1949).
> > >
> > > Copacetic xyua(m)buat(l)ach (coincidental similarity?)
> > EVERYTHING you invent that starts with "xyua" is "coincidental."
> Or cognate.
> > Are y9o ever going to explain what "xyua" comes from and indicates?
> It most often relates to passageway/change/transit between different environments eg in womb vs birthed, in home vs outside, (ex)change, chamber, gua/cave, cab.in. I did not anticipate that originally, as I thought xyuambuatl referred to seasonal community feasts which involved (re)defining the communal boundaries, which is a specialized derivation.
> As a physical object, xyuambuatl = domeshield, as the most primitive shelter (terrestrial, constructed, near open water cf beaver lodge but transportable, derived from arboreal hominoid bowl nest), may be the approximate equivalent (modern: dome tent; historical tipi@Dakota; shield/ximalli@Azt, teba@Hbr: ark, basket, mongolu@Mbuti, mengelap@Mly, etc. Inverted and carried, referred to cargo/capacity/cum/sum/combi/co-/cup/quaff etc.
>
> I googled (coupe-sétique) and found only references to copacetic. A real word in Louisiana French?
-

I think that 'zuber' is a German word meaning 2-handled pot/bottle.
I don't know its etymology.
I think it is an archaism, derived from xyuambuatl, baesd on this:

The earliest domeshields were roughly constructed, the circular base not fit to the ground very well, allowing air, insects, vermin to enter at night (no fire, dense fur). Over time, the form was improved, better waterproofing of leaves, better ground seal. But this excluded both air and vermin. To improve, a divot (small hole) was dug under the front wall (no doorway yet, dome was tilted for egress), this hole allowed airflow and gave a better quicker handhold to tilt, but also allowed vermin entry during nighttime. So occupants inserted a loose ball of crumpled grass/leaves which blocked mice, snakes, mosquitoes while aerating the dome. Specific plants would be sought, leaves from some flowering plants are mosquito repellant (lemongrass, geranium), rose thorns, mint leaves to deodorize, etc. Another small hole was dug under the back wall, as a urine canal linked to a shallow (moat) trench which kept rain from flooding the internal space. (This pre-ceded home hearths and permanent shelters.) After more time, these divots were pre-emptively fabricated into the domeshields as fibered (later leather) handles, allowing easier and quicker lifting and basket carrying. Eventually, these handle features became part of some pottery traditions and shield- bearing armed party practices.

Zuber ~ xyubatl ~ xyuambuatl

Mon, 4 Sep 2023 05:28:05 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden
<daud.deden@gmail.com> scribeva:

>On Monday, September 4, 2023 at 7:00:34?AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Sat, 2 Sep 2023 14:42:37 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden
>> <daud....@gmail.com> scribeva:
>> >On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 1:51:05?PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> >> Sat, 2 Sep 2023 04:37:02 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden
>> >> <daud....@gmail.com> scribeva:
>> >>
>> >> >On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 5:46:14?AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> >> >> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 4:07:25?AM UTC+2, Daud Deden wrote:
>> >> >> > Perhaps Dutch veld/field related to pelt, grain stalks sticking up like hair (bold, bald?)
>> >> >> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/veld#Etymology_3
>> >> >> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vilt#Etymology
>> >> >> So no, they're unrelated. The spellings with -d and -t (not regarding
>> >> >> Auslautverhärtung) already point in that direction, as do English felt
>> >> >> and field.
>> >> >
>> >> >Afaik, veld refers to open grassland vs closed forest, it does not describe a dried salt lake which is also flat and open, so likely it describes a patch of land with vertical stalks of grains, growing like the hairs on the skin.
>> >> >
>> >> >Otoh, vilt is wild game vs domestic fauna, unrelated to felt or field.
>> >> I referred to [nl] vilt = en [felt], a material.
>> >
>> >Ok. (You transposed the brackets.)
>> >>
>> >> Not to the Norwegian word vilt,
>> >> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vilt#Norwegian_Bokm%C3%A5l, (both [nb]
>> >> and [nn]), which, I read, is a borrowing from Middle Low German wilt,
>> >> and so cognate with Dutch and English wild. Dutch wild has the vowel
>> >> of English will, not of wild,
>> >
>> >wild vs wilderness = will vs willingness
>> >
>> >and the word, as a noun, also means
>> >> game: wild animals that can be hunted for food.
>> >>
>> >> In your method of etymology, you like to lump those all together based
>> >> on superficial similarity, but that is incorrect.
>> >> --
>> >> Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com
>> Please user proper software that properly skips the sig when quoting,
>> or remove it yourself.
>
>Why?

BECAUSE WE ARE ON USENET and this is an ages old Usenet convention.

>It shows the comment author clearly. And, beneficially, it is something from you with which we agree on completely; most of the rest of your words seem to always disagree with me, but your sig is reliably correct and uncontaminated by occasionally questionable wikipedia cites. ;~}

Irrelevant. Author attribution is done above, not below.

>> >No, sound and semantics both critical.
>> Etymology should have a higher priority than sound and semantics, when
>> doing etymology.
>
>Paleo-etymology stands upon sound & semantic evolution in the development of human language and its derived dialects.

If done well, that could work. But you don't do it well, because you
ignore time scales, slow language change, borrowings and natural
evolution.

On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 3:44:43 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Mon, 4 Sep 2023 05:28:05 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden
> <daud....@gmail.com> scribeva:
> >On Monday, September 4, 2023 at 7:00:34?AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> Sat, 2 Sep 2023 14:42:37 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden
> >> <daud....@gmail.com> scribeva:
> >> >On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 1:51:05?PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> >> Sat, 2 Sep 2023 04:37:02 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden
> >> >> <daud....@gmail.com> scribeva:
> >> >>
> >> >> >On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 5:46:14?AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 4:07:25?AM UTC+2, Daud Deden wrote:
> >> >> >> > Perhaps Dutch veld/field related to pelt, grain stalks sticking up like hair (bold, bald?)
> >> >> >> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/veld#Etymology_3
> >> >> >> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vilt#Etymology
> >> >> >> So no, they're unrelated. The spellings with -d and -t (not regarding
> >> >> >> Auslautverhärtung) already point in that direction, as do English felt
> >> >> >> and field.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Afaik, veld refers to open grassland vs closed forest, it does not describe a dried salt lake which is also flat and open, so likely it describes a patch of land with vertical stalks of grains, growing like the hairs on the skin.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Otoh, vilt is wild game vs domestic fauna, unrelated to felt or field.
> >> >> I referred to [nl] vilt = en [felt], a material.
> >> >
> >> >Ok. (You transposed the brackets.)
> >> >>
> >> >> Not to the Norwegian word vilt,
> >> >> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vilt#Norwegian_Bokm%C3%A5l, (both [nb]
> >> >> and [nn]), which, I read, is a borrowing from Middle Low German wilt,
> >> >> and so cognate with Dutch and English wild. Dutch wild has the vowel
> >> >> of English will, not of wild,
> >> >
> >> >wild vs wilderness = will vs willingness
> >> >
> >> >and the word, as a noun, also means
> >> >> game: wild animals that can be hunted for food.
> >> >>
> >> >> In your method of etymology, you like to lump those all together based
> >> >> on superficial similarity, but that is incorrect.
> >> >> --
> >> >> Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com
> >> Please user proper software that properly skips the sig when quoting,
> >> or remove it yourself.
> >
> >Why?
> BECAUSE WE ARE ON USENET and this is an ages old Usenet convention.
> >It shows the comment author clearly. And, beneficially, it is something from you with which we agree on completely; most of the rest of your words seem to always disagree with me, but your sig is reliably correct and uncontaminated by occasionally questionable wikipedia cites. ;~}
> Irrelevant. Author attribution is done above, not below.
> >> >No, sound and semantics both critical.
> >> Etymology should have a higher priority than sound and semantics, when
> >> doing etymology.
> >
> >Paleo-etymology stands upon sound & semantic evolution in the development of human language and its derived dialects.
> If done well, that could work. But you don't do it well, because you
> ignore time scales, slow language change, borrowings and natural
> evolution.
Test

On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 1:14:04 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 3:44:43 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > Mon, 4 Sep 2023 05:28:05 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden
> > <daud....@gmail.com> scribeva:
> > >On Monday, September 4, 2023 at 7:00:34?AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > >> Sat, 2 Sep 2023 14:42:37 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden
> > >> <daud....@gmail.com> scribeva:
> > >> >On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 1:51:05?PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > >> >> Sat, 2 Sep 2023 04:37:02 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden
> > >> >> <daud....@gmail.com> scribeva:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 5:46:14?AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> > >> >> >> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 4:07:25?AM UTC+2, Daud Deden wrote:
> > >> >> >> > Perhaps Dutch veld/field related to pelt, grain stalks sticking up like hair (bold, bald?)
> > >> >> >> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/veld#Etymology_3
> > >> >> >> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vilt#Etymology
> > >> >> >> So no, they're unrelated. The spellings with -d and -t (not regarding
> > >> >> >> Auslautverhärtung) already point in that direction, as do English felt
> > >> >> >> and field.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Afaik, veld refers to open grassland vs closed forest, it does not describe a dried salt lake which is also flat and open, so likely it describes a patch of land with vertical stalks of grains, growing like the hairs on the skin.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Otoh, vilt is wild game vs domestic fauna, unrelated to felt or field.
> > >> >> I referred to [nl] vilt = en [felt], a material.
> > >> >
> > >> >Ok. (You transposed the brackets.)
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Not to the Norwegian word vilt,
> > >> >> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vilt#Norwegian_Bokm%C3%A5l, (both [nb]
> > >> >> and [nn]), which, I read, is a borrowing from Middle Low German wilt,
> > >> >> and so cognate with Dutch and English wild. Dutch wild has the vowel
> > >> >> of English will, not of wild,
> > >> >
> > >> >wild vs wilderness = will vs willingness
> > >> >
> > >> >and the word, as a noun, also means
> > >> >> game: wild animals that can be hunted for food.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> In your method of etymology, you like to lump those all together based
> > >> >> on superficial similarity, but that is incorrect.
> > >> >> --
> > >> >> Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com
> > >> Please user proper software that properly skips the sig when quoting,
> > >> or remove it yourself.
> > >
> > >Why?
> > BECAUSE WE ARE ON USENET and this is an ages old Usenet convention.
> > >It shows the comment author clearly. And, beneficially, it is something from you with which we agree on completely; most of the rest of your words seem to always disagree with me, but your sig is reliably correct and uncontaminated by occasionally questionable wikipedia cites. ;~}
> > Irrelevant. Author attribution is done above, not below.
Author agreement below.
> > >> >No, sound and semantics both critical.
> > >> Etymology should have a higher priority than sound and semantics, when
> > >> doing etymology.
> > >
> > >Paleo-etymology stands upon sound & semantic evolution in the development of human language and its derived dialects.
> > If done well, that could work. But you don't do it well, because you
> > ignore time scales, slow language change, borrowings and natural
> > evolution.

Mere regurgitation of your standard prejudice. Stop whining about what you do not comprehend.
There is one human language. Dutch is a geopolitical dialect, like English or Cantonese; all such dialects have porous borders, so there are no 'borrowings', words flow through cultures depending on their usefulness. A naturalist, I hardly need your preaching on 'natural evolution'.

On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 1:37:21 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 1:14:04 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 3:44:43 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > > Mon, 4 Sep 2023 05:28:05 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden
> > > <daud....@gmail.com> scribeva:
> > > >On Monday, September 4, 2023 at 7:00:34?AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > > >> Sat, 2 Sep 2023 14:42:37 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden
> > > >> <daud....@gmail.com> scribeva:
> > > >> >On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 1:51:05?PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > > >> >> Sat, 2 Sep 2023 04:37:02 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden
> > > >> >> <daud....@gmail.com> scribeva:
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> >On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 5:46:14?AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> > > >> >> >> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 4:07:25?AM UTC+2, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > >> >> >> > Perhaps Dutch veld/field related to pelt, grain stalks sticking up like hair (bold, bald?)
> > > >> >> >> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/veld#Etymology_3
> > > >> >> >> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vilt#Etymology
> > > >> >> >> So no, they're unrelated. The spellings with -d and -t (not regarding
> > > >> >> >> Auslautverhärtung) already point in that direction, as do English felt
> > > >> >> >> and field.
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >Afaik, veld refers to open grassland vs closed forest, it does not describe a dried salt lake which is also flat and open, so likely it describes a patch of land with vertical stalks of grains, growing like the hairs on the skin.
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >Otoh, vilt is wild game vs domestic fauna, unrelated to felt or field.
> > > >> >> I referred to [nl] vilt = en [felt], a material.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >Ok. (You transposed the brackets.)
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Not to the Norwegian word vilt,
> > > >> >> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vilt#Norwegian_Bokm%C3%A5l, (both [nb]
> > > >> >> and [nn]), which, I read, is a borrowing from Middle Low German wilt,
> > > >> >> and so cognate with Dutch and English wild. Dutch wild has the vowel
> > > >> >> of English will, not of wild,
> > > >> >
> > > >> >wild vs wilderness = will vs willingness
> > > >> >
> > > >> >and the word, as a noun, also means
> > > >> >> game: wild animals that can be hunted for food.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> In your method of etymology, you like to lump those all together based
> > > >> >> on superficial similarity, but that is incorrect.
> > > >> >> --
> > > >> >> Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com
> > > >> Please user proper software that properly skips the sig when quoting,
> > > >> or remove it yourself.
> > > >
> > > >Why?
> > > BECAUSE WE ARE ON USENET and this is an ages old Usenet convention.
> > > >It shows the comment author clearly. And, beneficially, it is something from you with which we agree on completely; most of the rest of your words seem to always disagree with me, but your sig is reliably correct and uncontaminated by occasionally questionable wikipedia cites. ;~}
> > > Irrelevant. Author attribution is done above, not below.
> Author agreement below.
> > > >> >No, sound and semantics both critical.
> > > >> Etymology should have a higher priority than sound and semantics, when
> > > >> doing etymology.
> > > >
> > > >Paleo-etymology stands upon sound & semantic evolution in the development of human language and its derived dialects.
> > > If done well, that could work. But you don't do it well, because you
> > > ignore time scales, slow language change, borrowings and natural
> > > evolution.
> Mere regurgitation of your standard prejudice. Stop whining about what you do not comprehend.
> There is one human language. Dutch is a geopolitical dialect, like English or Cantonese; all such dialects have porous borders, so there are no 'borrowings', words flow through cultures depending on their usefulness. A naturalist, I hardly need your preaching on 'natural evolution'.
- My good phone was stolen, so now using 2 cheap junk phones, they don't like googlegroups.
This thread is getting cumbersome, about 500 posts. Time to start another Paleo-etymology thread.

Zuber/tub ~ kup.har.igolu ~ cwrgwl ~ coracle
Teba ~ topa ~ kufa
Zu ~ zwei? 2 handles/slots for tilting/lifting/carrying

Sat, 9 Sep 2023 22:37:18 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden
<daud.deden@gmail.com> scribeva:
>Mere regurgitation of your standard prejudice. Stop whining about what you do not comprehend.
>There is one human language. Dutch is a geopolitical dialect, like English
>or Cantonese; all such dialects have porous borders, so there are no 'borrowings',
>words flow through cultures depending on their usefulness. A naturalist, I hardly
>need your preaching on 'natural evolution'.

Wanderwort.
--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

Due to spam attacks at sci.Lang googlegroup (and questionable captcha), Paleo-etymology threads are
at https://groups.io/g/1WorldofWords messages. Drop in if interested, join if you like, comment freely on topics.
DD 11/04/23

On Monday, July 17, 2023 at 4:00:58 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Monday, July 17, 2023 at 2:45:38 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > Curious about the pronunciations of cast, caste, chaste and chased.
> > Caste and chaste from Latin castus, pure.
> > Chastity appears less derived, so probably chaste as "chased" is more recent.
> > 'Cased' (the thieves cased the neighborhood) doesn't match caste.
> >
> > https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/caste#Old_French
> Cast from Old Norse c. 1200 to throw, unknown origin
>
> From act of plastering, moulding mud/clay/manure, later used in ceramic, metal, pastry forming

Caste caste (n.)
1610s, "one of the hereditary social groups of India," from Portuguese casta "breed, race, caste," earlier casta raça, "unmixed race," from Latin castus "cut off, separated" (also "pure," via notion of "cut off" from faults), past participle of carere "to be cut off from," from PIE *kas-to-, from root *kes- "to cut." Caste system is recorded from 1840. An earlier, now-obsolete sense of caste in English is "a race of men" (1550s), from Latin castus "chaste"

Borrowed from Portuguese or Spanish casta (“lineage, breed, race”), of uncertain origin. The OED derives it from Portuguese casto (“chaste”), from Latin castus. Coromines (1987) argues instead for a hypothetical Gothic form *𐌺𐌰𐍃𐍄𐍃 (*kasts), cognate with English cast, from Proto-Germanic *kastuz, from Proto-Indo-European *h₂ǵ-es-.

I think there's link to casa, castle, kota, ki, goati, shed, hut, being both a term for plastering mud/clay, casting, and for the finished family home, thus a lineage, like Basque 'etxe' means both house and family lineage. From that, it became a designation of any people living in mud-plastered dwellings, as opposed to wooden or brick homes.

Via x(yu)a(mbu)at(lachyah)

> plastic (adj.)
> 1630s, "capable of shaping or molding a mass of matter," from Latin plasticus, from Greek plastikos "fit for molding, capable of being molded into various forms; pertaining to molding," also in reference to the arts, from plastos "molded, formed," verbal adjective from plassein "to mold" (see plasma).
>
> paste (n.)
> c. 1300 (mid-12c. as a surname), "dough for the making of bread or pastry," from Old French paste "dough, pastry" (13c., Modern French pâte), from Late Latin pasta "dough, pastry cake, paste" (see pasta). Meaning "glue mixture, dough used as a plaster seal" is attested from c. 1400
>
> When you throw it at the wall, it sticks: spaghetti pasta
>
> MICHAEL BRADY
> Asker, Norway
>
> The word cast comes from the Old Norse word kasta, a verb which means “throw” or “cast.” The meaning of kasta is durable, as it has survived unchanged in modern Icelandic and Swedish and with a change of the terminal vowel to kaste in Danish and Norwegian.
>
> It first appeared in English in the year 1230 in the Hali Meidenhad (literally “Holy Maidenhood”), an alliterative homily of the 13th century, extant in two manuscripts, one in the British Library in London and one in the Oxford University Bodleian Library.
>
> In Middle English, the word “cast” in the sense of “throw” became archaic, and in everyday usage was superseded by it. Today there are 83 denotations of “cast” in the definitive 20-volume Oxford English Dictionary (OED), arranged by principal meaning in 13 groups: 1) To throw; 2) To throw down, defeat, convict, defeat; 3) To be rid of, throw off, to shed, to discard; 4) To dig or throw up earth with a shovel; 5) To put or place by force, as into prison, or into a state of rage; 6) To calculate, forecast, reckon; 7) To turn in mind, devise, contrive; 8) To arrange the parts in a drama; 9) To shape an object by pouring fluid or molten metal, plaster, etc., into a mold and letting it harden; 10) To turn, twist, warp, or veer; 11) To plaster
>
> Earthworm casts are feces
> Feathers, scales, antlers are thrown/cast off during molting.

Daud Deden <daud.deden@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, July 17, 2023 at 4:00:58 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
>> On Monday, July 17, 2023 at 2:45:38 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
>>> Curious about the pronunciations of cast, caste, chaste and chased.
>>> Caste and chaste from Latin castus, pure.
>>> Chastity appears less derived, so probably chaste as "chased" is more recent.
>>> 'Cased' (the thieves cased the neighborhood) doesn't match caste.
>>>
>>> https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/caste#Old_French
>> Cast from Old Norse c. 1200 to throw, unknown origin
>>
>> From act of plastering, moulding mud/clay/manure, later used in ceramic,
>> metal, pastry forming
>
> Caste caste (n.)
> 1610s, "one of the hereditary social groups of India," from Portuguese
> casta "breed, race, caste," earlier casta raça, "unmixed race," from
> Latin castus "cut off, separated" (also "pure," via notion of "cut off"
> from faults), past participle of carere "to be cut off from," from PIE
> *kas-to-, from root *kes- "to cut." Caste system is recorded from 1840.
> An earlier, now-obsolete sense of caste in English is "a race of men"
> (1550s), from Latin castus "chaste"
>
> Borrowed from Portuguese or Spanish casta (“lineage, breed, race”), of
> uncertain origin. The OED derives it from Portuguese casto (“chaste”),
> from Latin castus. Coromines (1987) argues instead for a hypothetical
> Gothic form *𐌺𐌰𐍃𐍄𐍃 (*kasts), cognate with English cast, from
> Proto-Germanic *kastuz, from Proto-Indo-European *h₂ǵ-es-.

I’ve always found the derivation of _casta_ ‘strain’ from _casta_ ‘chaste
[Feminine]’ dubious. Not so much because of the semantics, but because
creating a noun out of an adjective feels broken even nowadays, much more
so in the medieval time frame it’d have to have occurred.

>
> I think there's link to casa,

Otoh I can see no possible phonetic connection between either of the castas
and _casa_, that’s just not how portuguese works.

> castle, kota, ki, goati, shed, hut, being both a term for plastering
> mud/clay, casting, and for the finished family home, thus a lineage, like
> Basque 'etxe' means both house and family lineage. From that, it became a
> designation of any people living in mud-plastered dwellings, as opposed
> to wooden or brick homes.
>
> Via x(yu)a(mbu)at(lachyah)
>
>
>> plastic (adj.)
>> 1630s, "capable of shaping or molding a mass of matter," from Latin
>> plasticus, from Greek plastikos "fit for molding, capable of being
>> molded into various forms; pertaining to molding," also in reference to
>> the arts, from plastos "molded, formed," verbal adjective from plassein
>> "to mold" (see plasma).
>>
>> paste (n.)
>> c. 1300 (mid-12c. as a surname), "dough for the making of bread or
>> pastry," from Old French paste "dough, pastry" (13c., Modern French
>> pâte), from Late Latin pasta "dough, pastry cake, paste" (see pasta).
>> Meaning "glue mixture, dough used as a plaster seal" is attested from c. 1400
>>
>> When you throw it at the wall, it sticks: spaghetti pasta
>>
>> MICHAEL BRADY
>> Asker, Norway
>>
>> The word cast comes from the Old Norse word kasta, a verb which means
>> “throw” or “cast.” The meaning of kasta is durable, as it has survived
>> unchanged in modern Icelandic and Swedish and with a change of the
>> terminal vowel to kaste in Danish and Norwegian.
>>
>> It first appeared in English in the year 1230 in the Hali Meidenhad
>> (literally “Holy Maidenhood”), an alliterative homily of the 13th
>> century, extant in two manuscripts, one in the British Library in London
>> and one in the Oxford University Bodleian Library.
>>
>> In Middle English, the word “cast” in the sense of “throw” became
>> archaic, and in everyday usage was superseded by it. Today there are 83
>> denotations of “cast” in the definitive 20-volume Oxford English
>> Dictionary (OED), arranged by principal meaning in 13 groups: 1) To
>> throw; 2) To throw down, defeat, convict, defeat; 3) To be rid of, throw
>> off, to shed, to discard; 4) To dig or throw up earth with a shovel; 5)
>> To put or place by force, as into prison, or into a state of rage; 6) To
>> calculate, forecast, reckon; 7) To turn in mind, devise, contrive; 8) To
>> arrange the parts in a drama; 9) To shape an object by pouring fluid or
>> molten metal, plaster, etc., into a mold and letting it harden; 10) To
>> turn, twist, warp, or veer; 11) To plaster
>>
>> Earthworm casts are feces
>> Feathers, scales, antlers are thrown/cast off during molting.
>

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 5:05:02 PM UTC-5, Antonio Marques wrote:
> Daud Deden <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Monday, July 17, 2023 at 4:00:58 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> >> On Monday, July 17, 2023 at 2:45:38 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> >>> Curious about the pronunciations of cast, caste, chaste and chased.
> >>> Caste and chaste from Latin castus, pure.
> >>> Chastity appears less derived, so probably chaste as "chased" is more recent.
> >>> 'Cased' (the thieves cased the neighborhood) doesn't match caste.
> >>>
> >>> https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/caste#Old_French
> >> Cast from Old Norse c. 1200 to throw, unknown origin
> >>
> >> From act of plastering, moulding mud/clay/manure, later used in ceramic,
> >> metal, pastry forming
> >
> > Caste caste (n.)
> > 1610s, "one of the hereditary social groups of India," from Portuguese
> > casta "breed, race, caste," earlier casta raça, "unmixed race," from
> > Latin castus "cut off, separated" (also "pure," via notion of "cut off"
> > from faults), past participle of carere "to be cut off from," from PIE
> > *kas-to-, from root *kes- "to cut." Caste system is recorded from 1840.
> > An earlier, now-obsolete sense of caste in English is "a race of men"
> > (1550s), from Latin castus "chaste"
> >
> > Borrowed from Portuguese or Spanish casta (“lineage, breed, race”), of
> > uncertain origin. The OED derives it from Portuguese casto (“chaste”),
> > from Latin castus. Coromines (1987) argues instead for a hypothetical
> > Gothic form *𐌺𐌰𐍃𐍄𐍃 (*kasts), cognate with English cast, from
> > Proto-Germanic *kastuz, from Proto-Indo-European *h₂ǵ-es-.

> I’ve always found the derivation of _casta_ ‘strain’ from _casta_ ‘chaste
> [Feminine]’ dubious. Not so much because of the semantics, but because
> creating a noun out of an adjective feels broken even nowadays, much more
> so in the medieval time frame it’d have to have occurred.

Thanks. Strain here obviously refers to a strain of grapes, a breed of dogs, a caste, a filtered (purified) something.
It may link to a filtering basket (cask?) or fish trap (Kudu @Karnataka) or net/screen, to cast a net to catch fish.

> >
> > I think there's link to casa,
> Otoh I can see no possible phonetic connection between either of the castas
> and _casa_, that’s just not how portuguese works.

Not arguing, but I'm thinking of a much older period, 10's of thousands of years ago. We have no written accounts, but we have cultural & linguistic vestiges that vary regionally for comparative analysis. The difficulty lies in knowing approximately how they lived, long before concentrated sedentary agricultural settlements & domestication. They were housed, used nets.

> > castle, kota, ki, goati, shed, hut, being both a term for plastering
> > mud/clay, casting, and for the finished family home, thus a lineage, like
> > Basque 'etxe' means both house and family lineage. From that, it became a
> > designation of any people living in mud-plastered dwellings, as opposed
> > to wooden or brick homes.
> >
> > Via x(yu)a(mbu)at(lachyah)
> >
> >
> >> plastic (adj.)
> >> 1630s, "capable of shaping or molding a mass of matter," from Latin
> >> plasticus, from Greek plastikos "fit for molding, capable of being
> >> molded into various forms; pertaining to molding," also in reference to
> >> the arts, from plastos "molded, formed," verbal adjective from plassein
> >> "to mold" (see plasma).
> >>
> >> paste (n.)
> >> c. 1300 (mid-12c. as a surname), "dough for the making of bread or
> >> pastry," from Old French paste "dough, pastry" (13c., Modern French
> >> pâte), from Late Latin pasta "dough, pastry cake, paste" (see pasta).
> >> Meaning "glue mixture, dough used as a plaster seal" is attested from c. 1400
> >>
> >> When you throw it at the wall, it sticks: spaghetti pasta
> >>
> >> MICHAEL BRADY
> >> Asker, Norway
> >>
> >> The word cast comes from the Old Norse word kasta, a verb which means
> >> “throw” or “cast.” The meaning of kasta is durable, as it has survived
> >> unchanged in modern Icelandic and Swedish and with a change of the
> >> terminal vowel to kaste in Danish and Norwegian.
> >>
> >> It first appeared in English in the year 1230 in the Hali Meidenhad
> >> (literally “Holy Maidenhood”), an alliterative homily of the 13th
> >> century, extant in two manuscripts, one in the British Library in London
> >> and one in the Oxford University Bodleian Library.
> >>
> >> In Middle English, the word “cast” in the sense of “throw” became
> >> archaic, and in everyday usage was superseded by it. Today there are 83
> >> denotations of “cast” in the definitive 20-volume Oxford English
> >> Dictionary (OED), arranged by principal meaning in 13 groups: 1) To
> >> throw; 2) To throw down, defeat, convict, defeat; 3) To be rid of, throw
> >> off, to shed, to discard; 4) To dig or throw up earth with a shovel; 5)
> >> To put or place by force, as into prison, or into a state of rage; 6) To
> >> calculate, forecast, reckon; 7) To turn in mind, devise, contrive; 8) To
> >> arrange the parts in a drama; 9) To shape an object by pouring fluid or
> >> molten metal, plaster, etc., into a mold and letting it harden; 10) To
> >> turn, twist, warp, or veer; 11) To plaster
> >>
> >> Earthworm casts are feces
> >> Feathers, scales, antlers are thrown/cast off during molting.
> >

On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 7:11:08 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 2:07:03 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > Thu, 27 Jul 2023 13:45:38 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden
> > <daud....@gmail.com> scribeva:
> > >On Thursday, July 27, 2023 at 4:02:38?PM UTC-4, Ross Clark wrote:
> > >> On 28/07/2023 1:22 a.m., Daud Deden wrote:
> > >> > Sons of Jacob (in Russian): Synovya Iakova (?)
> > >> >
> > >> > Not correct.
> > >> What's not correct?
> > >> > synovial (adj.)
> > >> > 1756, "pertaining to the synovia," albuminous fluid secreted by certain glands, from Modern Latin sinovia (16c.), probably coined by Paracelsus and apparently an invented word.
> > >> >
> > >> > syn- [ xyuamb, sum]
> > >> > word-forming element meaning "together with, jointly; alike; at the same time," also sometimes completive or intensive, from Greek syn (prep.) "with, together with, along with, in the company of," from PIE *ksun- "with" (source also of Russian so- "with, together," from Old Russian su(n)-). Assimilated to -l-, reduced to sy- before -s- and -z-, and altered to sym- before -b-, -m- and -p-.
> > >> >
> > >> No,no,no.
> > >> Synovya is an archaic plural of Russian /syn/ 'son'. Yes, cognate with
> > >> the English word.
> > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D1%81%D1%8B%D0%BD#Declension_3 calls
> > it irregular, not archaic.
> > >Thanks, interesting. I checked 3 sites googling 'etym synovya', no mention of syn/son in Russian, all mentioned synovial fluid, so I thought the original cite (Clive Cussler, author of fiction, novel) was in error or invented.
> > >I guess you mean that 'synovya' is cognate with 'sons'.
> > --
> > Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com
> Etymology
>
> u-stem derivation from the root *sewH- (“to give birth”), thus the original meaning being "birth, fruit of the body". Tocharian, Greek and Armenian reflect the -yu- derivation from the same root: *suHyús. Sanskrit सूषा (sūṣā́, “parturient woman”) and Albanian gjysh (< Proto-Albanian *sūšā) derived from later variation *suHsós.
>
> Noun
> *suh₁nús or *suh₃nús m[1]
> son
>
> -
> Cognate with 'issue'?
> Xyua(mbuatl) through, threw, in parallel with Malay bua(h/t/ng) fruit-fert/make/throw out-parturate (xyuam)buatl

Compare *sewH- birthing with *tewh- swelling and to endu/endo, Theo/Deu/tue..sday, xyua- opening of dome hut