On 4/14/2022 7:58 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
> On Thu, 2022-04-14 at 18:59 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> C# allows something similar since version 7 (non-static) / 8
>>>> (static).
>>>
>>> That's nested classes, completely different kettle of fish.
>>
>> No.
>>
>> Nested classes has been in C# since version 1 (because
>> it was in Java).
>>
>> C# version 7 and 8 added nested methods.
>
> Oh? That's news to me but yes, I just checked and indeed it does have
> nested methods. But I'm not a C# coder though.

Honestly I have never understood why they added it.

I think it has solid benefits for a language like
Pascal.

But it is not quite so obvious for a language
with namespaces, classes and public/internal/private
visibility available.

Arne

On 4/14/2022 9:43 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 4/14/2022 7:58 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
>> On Thu, 2022-04-14 at 18:59 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>> C# allows something similar since version 7 (non-static) / 8
>>>>> (static).
>>>>
>>>> That's nested classes, completely different kettle of fish.
>>>
>>> No.
>>>
>>> Nested classes has been in C# since version 1 (because
>>> it was in Java).
>>>
>>> C# version 7 and 8 added nested methods.
>>
>> Oh? That's news to me but yes, I just checked and indeed it does have
>> nested methods. But I'm not a C# coder though.
>
> Honestly I have never understood why they added it.
>
> I think it has solid benefits for a language like
> Pascal.
>
> But it is not quite so obvious for a language
> with namespaces, classes and public/internal/private
> visibility available.

And now we are in the linguistic mode.

VB.NET does not have nested methods/functions/subs.

But VB.NET lambdas can do practically the same.

Example:

Module Module1
Function M1()
Dim M = Function() As Integer
Return 1
End Function
Return M() + 1
End Function
Function M2()
Dim M = Function() As Integer
Return 2
End Function
Return M() + 2
End Function
Sub Main()
Console.WriteLine("{0} {1}", M1(), M2())
Console.ReadKey()
End Sub
End Module

Arne

Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 14/04/2022 8:36 am, Dave Froble wrote:
>> On 4/13/2022 2:31 PM, John Reagan wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 8:48:36 PM UTC-4, Richard Maher
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 11/04/2022 8:52 pm, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-04-10, Richard Maher <maher_rj...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/04/2022 3:12 am, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>>>>> Just a bit of fun.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When do you think the native x86-64 VMS compilers will ship
>>>>>>> ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For me:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For COBOL and Fortran: 12-Jul-2022
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For BASIC: 11-Oct-2022
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For C/C++: 17-May-2022
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> These are all Tuesday, because as we all know, everything
>>>>>>> happens on a Tuesday. :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Reagan must be in for another pit stop? New Heart,
>>>>>> Kidneys?
>>>>>
>>>>> You know Richard, you are a really charming person at times.
>>>>> :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Simon.
>>>>>
>>>> Look, I know how he feels. If I leave my wallet behind one more
>>>> fucking time :-(
>>>>
>>>> WRT John's productivity, I've heard the delay is down to him
>>>> asking for appointments for 3rd and 4th opinions on the size of
>>>> host prostate. Strange . . .
>>> Well, that turned dark pretty quick
>>>
>>
>> It's Richard, what else did you expect?
>>
>
> Scintillating repartee :-)
>
> COBOL evangelism, Love of protected subsystems (eg RMS, Rdb), Depression
> and PTSD after years of VMS abuse, dreams of VMS backend resurgence. . .
>

What precisely, I dare ask, are you dreaming about VMS back ends? :-D

Single Stage to Orbit <alex.buell@munted.eu> wrote:
> On Wed, 2022-04-13 at 14:42 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> You forgot Pascal!
>
> Nice language, it must be the only one I'm aware of that allows nested
> procedures and functions. I've not met another programming language
> that allows that.

Does anyone know if PL/1 has nested functions/procedures?

On 15/04/2022 7:12 am, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 4/14/2022 6:39 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
>> On 4/14/2022 2:08 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> On 2022-04-14, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>>> On 4/14/2022 1:17 AM, Richard Maher wrote:
>>>>> On 14/04/2022 12:23 pm, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/13/2022 10:10 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/13/2022 8:43 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>>>>>> Can you better define nested functions? Then I can
>>>>>>>> decide if Basic allows such.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Functions declared inside functions (and therefore only
>>>>>>> available inside the declaring function).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ok, what is so neat about that?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I cannot see the point, when if one wants to use a second
>>>>>> function inside a first function, another external function
>>>>>> should be callable. Haven't tried it recently. Maybe I
>>>>>> should. Perhaps I should know what I'm talking about at
>>>>>> least once a year.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But I can see no reason to have a function defined inside
>>>>>> another function.
>>>>>
>>>>> Encapsulation/Isolation
>>>>
>>>> Isolation from what? You're writing the code, you decide what
>>>> to write, I still don't see the point.
>>>
>>> When you write an application that's say 20,000 lines long, do
>>> you write one great big monolithic function that's 20,000 lines
>>> long and with sections of common code copy and pasted around in
>>> the application, or do you split up the application into logical
>>> chunks and also include common functions with a defined interface
>>> that can be called from multiple points in your application ?
>
> That is the argument for functions - not the arguments for nested
> functions.
>
>> Simon, I am the world's greatest believer in modularity.
>>
>> I have libraries of often used functionality.
>>
>> I break tasks down into reasonable units.
>>
>> I really try to keep things as simple and understandable as
>> possible.
>>
>> When one creates an "object" to perform a task, then one can invoke
>> that same "object" many times, from all over the main task. (Use
>> of term "object" intended.)
>
>> But the philosophy has been, keep it small, keep it simple, keep it
>> reusable.
>>
>>> If it's the latter, you are already performing encapsulation and
>>> isolation of functionality and nested procedures are just the
>>> next step in that process.
>>
>> But why? Why would anyone ever want to encapsulate some object
>> inside another object? Not saying there will never be a reason,
>> but, I just don't see it.
>
> If you have a large applications, then having 1000 global visible
> functions expose a lot of internals. If you instead have 50 global
> visible functions that use 200 local visible functions that use 750
> next level visible functions, then have reduced what get exposed to
> only what need to be exposed and you keep the internals internal.
>
> Arne
>
>

COBOL and program-id IS COMMON and GLOBAL variables was just so far
ahead of its time

On 15/04/2022 10:37 am, Galen wrote:
> Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 14/04/2022 8:36 am, Dave Froble wrote:
>>> On 4/13/2022 2:31 PM, John Reagan wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 8:48:36 PM UTC-4, Richard Maher
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On 11/04/2022 8:52 pm, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>>>> On 2022-04-10, Richard Maher <maher_rj...@hotmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 10/04/2022 3:12 am, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>>>>>> Just a bit of fun.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When do you think the native x86-64 VMS compilers will
>>>>>>>> ship ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For me:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For COBOL and Fortran: 12-Jul-2022
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For BASIC: 11-Oct-2022
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For C/C++: 17-May-2022
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> These are all Tuesday, because as we all know,
>>>>>>>> everything happens on a Tuesday. :-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John Reagan must be in for another pit stop? New Heart,
>>>>>>> Kidneys?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You know Richard, you are a really charming person at
>>>>>> times. :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Simon.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Look, I know how he feels. If I leave my wallet behind one
>>>>> more fucking time :-(
>>>>>
>>>>> WRT John's productivity, I've heard the delay is down to him
>>>>> asking for appointments for 3rd and 4th opinions on the size
>>>>> of host prostate. Strange . . .
>>>> Well, that turned dark pretty quick
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's Richard, what else did you expect?
>>>
>>
>> Scintillating repartee :-)
>>
>> COBOL evangelism, Love of protected subsystems (eg RMS, Rdb),
>> Depression and PTSD after years of VMS abuse, dreams of VMS backend
>> resurgence. . .
>>
>
> What precisely, I dare ask, are you dreaming about VMS back ends?
> :-D
>

Something like Kestrel that talks HTTP and can pass JSON to 3GL code a
la mode de TIER3. FIDO2 Authentication support. To start . . .

On 4/14/2022 10:37 PM, Galen wrote:
> Single Stage to Orbit <alex.buell@munted.eu> wrote:
>> On Wed, 2022-04-13 at 14:42 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> You forgot Pascal!
>>
>> Nice language, it must be the only one I'm aware of that allows nested
>> procedures and functions. I've not met another programming language
>> that allows that.
>
> Does anyone know if PL/1 has nested functions/procedures?

IBM PL/I has per:

https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/epfz/5.3?topic=organization-procedures

Arne

On 4/15/2022 3:36 AM, Richard Maher wrote:
> On 15/04/2022 10:37 am, Galen wrote:
>> Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> COBOL evangelism, Love of protected subsystems (eg RMS, Rdb),
>>> Depression and PTSD after years of VMS abuse, dreams of VMS backend
>>> resurgence. . .
>>
>> What precisely, I dare ask, are you dreaming about VMS back ends?
>
> Something like Kestrel that talks HTTP and can pass JSON to 3GL code a
> la mode de TIER3. FIDO2 Authentication support. To start . . .

Both Java and Python can provide nice embedded HTTP servers, do JSON
and potentially interact with native code (Cobol or otherwise), but
obvious question is whether it wouldn't be better to do it all in
either Java or Python.

Arne

On 4/13/2022 9:12 PM, John Reagan wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 7:01:27 PM UTC-4, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
>> On Wed, 2022-04-13 at 14:42 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> You forgot Pascal!
>>
>> Nice language, it must be the only one I'm aware of that allows nested
>> procedures and functions. I've not met another programming language
>> that allows that.

> gcc allows nested functions. I don't remember if they allow uplevel access or if it just a scope thing.

https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Nested-Functions.html

has the details about what it can and cannot.

Arne

On 4/14/2022 10:37 PM, Galen wrote:
> Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 14/04/2022 8:36 am, Dave Froble wrote:
>>> On 4/13/2022 2:31 PM, John Reagan wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 8:48:36 PM UTC-4, Richard Maher
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On 11/04/2022 8:52 pm, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>>>> On 2022-04-10, Richard Maher <maher_rj...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 10/04/2022 3:12 am, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>>>>>> Just a bit of fun.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When do you think the native x86-64 VMS compilers will ship
>>>>>>>> ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For me:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For COBOL and Fortran: 12-Jul-2022
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For BASIC: 11-Oct-2022
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For C/C++: 17-May-2022
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> These are all Tuesday, because as we all know, everything
>>>>>>>> happens on a Tuesday. :-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John Reagan must be in for another pit stop? New Heart,
>>>>>>> Kidneys?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You know Richard, you are a really charming person at times.
>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Simon.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Look, I know how he feels. If I leave my wallet behind one more
>>>>> fucking time :-(
>>>>>
>>>>> WRT John's productivity, I've heard the delay is down to him
>>>>> asking for appointments for 3rd and 4th opinions on the size of
>>>>> host prostate. Strange . . .
>>>> Well, that turned dark pretty quick
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's Richard, what else did you expect?
>>>
>>
>> Scintillating repartee :-)
>>
>> COBOL evangelism, Love of protected subsystems (eg RMS, Rdb), Depression
>> and PTSD after years of VMS abuse, dreams of VMS backend resurgence. . .
>>
>
> What precisely, I dare ask, are you dreaming about VMS back ends? :-D
>

This is getting beyond dark ...

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

Single Stage to Orbit <alex.buell@munted.eu> writes:

> On Thu, 2022-04-14 at 14:54 -0400, Rich Alderson wrote:
>> Single Stage to Orbit <alex.buell@munted.eu> writes:

>>> How could I have forgotten all about ADA! Yes, indeed that does
>>> handle nested procedures/functions. How could I have forgotten as I
>>> did do ADA programming at university decades ago!

>> Quibble:=C2=A0 The name of the language is _Ada_, as in Ada Augusta
>> Lovelace, not a TLA like "Americans with Disabilities Act".

> Quite right too. Sadly on my bookshelf I can see two books that
> capitialises Ada!

Is the remainder of the title mixed case, or is this simply a matter of upper
case titles?

--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen

On 15/04/2022 8:44 pm, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 4/15/2022 3:36 AM, Richard Maher wrote:
>> On 15/04/2022 10:37 am, Galen wrote:
>>> Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> COBOL evangelism, Love of protected subsystems (eg RMS, Rdb),
>>>> Depression and PTSD after years of VMS abuse, dreams of VMS
>>>> backend resurgence. . .
>>>
>>> What precisely, I dare ask, are you dreaming about VMS back
>>> ends?
>>
>> Something like Kestrel that talks HTTP and can pass JSON to 3GL
>> code a la mode de TIER3. FIDO2 Authentication support. To start . .
>> .
>
> Both Java and Python can provide nice embedded HTTP servers, do JSON
> and potentially interact with native code (Cobol or otherwise), but
> obvious question is whether it wouldn't be better to do it all in
> either Java or Python.
>
> Arne

This is the biggest mistake VMS has made for 20 years; throw away the
existing customer base :-(

On 4/15/2022 7:17 PM, Richard Maher wrote:
> On 15/04/2022 8:44 pm, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 4/15/2022 3:36 AM, Richard Maher wrote:
>>> On 15/04/2022 10:37 am, Galen wrote:
>>>> Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> COBOL evangelism, Love of protected subsystems (eg RMS, Rdb),
>>>>> Depression and PTSD after years of VMS abuse, dreams of VMS
>>>>> backend resurgence. . .
>>>>
>>>> What precisely, I dare ask, are you dreaming about VMS back
>>>> ends?
>>>
>>> Something like Kestrel that talks HTTP and can pass JSON to 3GL
>>> code a la mode de TIER3. FIDO2 Authentication support. To start . .
>>> .
>>
>> Both Java and Python can provide nice embedded HTTP servers, do JSON
>> and potentially interact with native code (Cobol or otherwise), but
>> obvious question is whether it wouldn't be better to do it all in
>> either Java or Python.
>
> This is the biggest mistake VMS has made for 20 years; throw away the
> existing customer base :-(

Using the right tool for the job is hardly throwing away the
customer base.

Cobol, Basic, Pascal, C etc. is just not the optimal language
for writing a new web service.

Not on any platform.

Arne

Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>
> IBM PL/I has per:
>
> https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/epfz/5.3?topic=organization-procedures
>
> Arne
>
>

I’m pretty confident that CDC’s PL/1 compiler for NOS on its 60-bit
mainframes hade them too. I tried to learn and use it for a college project
back around 1978-79 but it was too buggy. Slight syntax errors would lead
to the dreaded “Exchange Package”, a register dump that was sort of like
getting a stack dump on other systems.

On 4/15/2022 7:25 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 4/15/2022 7:17 PM, Richard Maher wrote:
>> On 15/04/2022 8:44 pm, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 4/15/2022 3:36 AM, Richard Maher wrote:
>>>> On 15/04/2022 10:37 am, Galen wrote:
>>>>> Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> COBOL evangelism, Love of protected subsystems (eg RMS, Rdb), Depression
>>>>>> and PTSD after years of VMS abuse, dreams of VMS
>>>>>> backend resurgence. . .
>>>>>
>>>>> What precisely, I dare ask, are you dreaming about VMS back
>>>>> ends?
>>>>
>>>> Something like Kestrel that talks HTTP and can pass JSON to 3GL
>>>> code a la mode de TIER3. FIDO2 Authentication support. To start . .
>>>> .
>>>
>>> Both Java and Python can provide nice embedded HTTP servers, do JSON and
>>> potentially interact with native code (Cobol or otherwise), but obvious
>>> question is whether it wouldn't be better to do it all in either Java or Python.
>>
>> This is the biggest mistake VMS has made for 20 years; throw away the existing
>> customer base :-(
>
> Using the right tool for the job is hardly throwing away the
> customer base.
>
> Cobol, Basic, Pascal, C etc. is just not the optimal language
> for writing a new web service.
>
> Not on any platform.
>
> Arne

Really depends on the web service, doesn't it?

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 4/15/22 22:10, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 4/15/2022 7:25 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 4/15/2022 7:17 PM, Richard Maher wrote:
>>> On 15/04/2022 8:44 pm, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> On 4/15/2022 3:36 AM, Richard Maher wrote:
>>>>> On 15/04/2022 10:37 am, Galen wrote:
>>>>>> Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> COBOL evangelism, Love of protected subsystems (eg RMS, Rdb),
>>>>>>> Depression
>>>>>>> and PTSD after years of VMS abuse, dreams of VMS
>>>>>>> backend resurgence. . .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What precisely, I dare ask, are you dreaming about VMS back
>>>>>> ends?
>>>>>
>>>>> Something like Kestrel that talks HTTP and can pass JSON to 3GL
>>>>> code a la mode de TIER3. FIDO2 Authentication support. To start . .
>>>>> .
>>>>
>>>> Both Java and Python can provide nice embedded HTTP servers, do JSON
>>>> and
>>>> potentially interact with native code (Cobol or otherwise), but obvious
>>>> question is whether it wouldn't be better to do it all in either
>>>> Java or Python.
>>>
>>> This is the biggest mistake VMS has made for 20 years; throw away the
>>> existing
>>> customer base :-(
>>
>> Using the right tool for the job is hardly throwing away the
>> customer base.
>>
>> Cobol, Basic, Pascal, C etc. is just not the optimal language
>> for writing a new web service.
>>
>> Not on any platform.
>>
>> Arne
>
> Really depends on the web service, doesn't it?
>

Like maybe, IBM zSystem running COBOL with CICS and a DB2 backend.

bill

Den 2022-04-16 kl. 13:28, skrev Bill Gunshannon:
> On 4/15/22 22:10, Dave Froble wrote:
>> On 4/15/2022 7:25 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 4/15/2022 7:17 PM, Richard Maher wrote:
>>>> On 15/04/2022 8:44 pm, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>> On 4/15/2022 3:36 AM, Richard Maher wrote:
>>>>>> On 15/04/2022 10:37 am, Galen wrote:
>>>>>>> Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> COBOL evangelism, Love of protected subsystems (eg RMS, Rdb),
>>>>>>>> Depression
>>>>>>>> and PTSD after years of VMS abuse, dreams of VMS
>>>>>>>> backend resurgence. . .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What precisely, I dare ask, are you dreaming about VMS back
>>>>>>> ends?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Something like Kestrel that talks HTTP and can pass JSON to 3GL
>>>>>> code a la mode de TIER3. FIDO2 Authentication support. To start . .
>>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>> Both Java and Python can provide nice embedded HTTP servers, do JSON and
>>>>> potentially interact with native code (Cobol or otherwise), but obvious
>>>>> question is whether it wouldn't be better to do it all in either Java
>>>>> or Python.
>>>>
>>>> This is the biggest mistake VMS has made for 20 years; throw away the
>>>> existing
>>>> customer base :-(
>>>
>>> Using the right tool for the job is hardly throwing away the
>>> customer base.
>>>
>>> Cobol, Basic, Pascal, C etc. is just not the optimal language
>>> for writing a new web service.
>>>
>>> Not on any platform.
>>>
>>> Arne
>>
>> Really depends on the web service, doesn't it?

And on the *definition* of "web services".

>>
>
> Like maybe, IBM zSystem running COBOL with CICS and a DB2 backend.
>
> bill
>

And maybe CWS...

On Fri, 2022-04-15 at 18:01 -0400, Rich Alderson wrote:
> Single Stage to Orbit <alex.buell@munted.eu> writes:
>
> > On Thu, 2022-04-14 at 14:54 -0400, Rich Alderson wrote:
> > > Single Stage to Orbit <alex.buell@munted.eu> writes:
>
> > > > How could I have forgotten all about ADA! Yes, indeed that does
> > > > handle nested procedures/functions. How could I have forgotten
> > > > as I
> > > > did do ADA programming at university decades ago!
>
> > > Quibble:=C2=A0 The name of the language is _Ada_, as in Ada
> > > Augusta
> > > Lovelace, not a TLA like "Americans with Disabilities Act".
>
> > Quite right too. Sadly on my bookshelf I can see two books that
> > capitialises Ada!
>
> Is the remainder of the title mixed case, or is this simply a matter
> of case

I haven't pulled these tomes from the book shelf to look, not at home
at present.
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

On 4/15/2022 10:10 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 4/15/2022 7:25 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 4/15/2022 7:17 PM, Richard Maher wrote:
>>> On 15/04/2022 8:44 pm, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> On 4/15/2022 3:36 AM, Richard Maher wrote:
>>>>> Something like Kestrel that talks HTTP and can pass JSON to 3GL
>>>>> code a la mode de TIER3. FIDO2 Authentication support.
>>>>
>>>> Both Java and Python can provide nice embedded HTTP servers, do JSON
>>>> and
>>>> potentially interact with native code (Cobol or otherwise), but obvious
>>>> question is whether it wouldn't be better to do it all in either
>>>> Java or Python.
>>>
>>> This is the biggest mistake VMS has made for 20 years; throw away the
>>> existing
>>> customer base :-(
>>
>> Using the right tool for the job is hardly throwing away the
>> customer base.
>>
>> Cobol, Basic, Pascal, C etc. is just not the optimal language
>> for writing a new web service.
>>
>> Not on any platform.
>
> Really depends on the web service, doesn't it?

Not so sure.

Embedding application in web server or embedding web server
in application, serialization/deserialization of XML/JSON,
understanding of HTTP headers, easy CORS, easy authentication
etc.. Not all web services will need all but most will need
several.

There are probably exceptions, but I would expect them to be
rare.

Arne

On 4/16/2022 7:28 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 4/15/22 22:10, Dave Froble wrote:
>> On 4/15/2022 7:25 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 4/15/2022 7:17 PM, Richard Maher wrote:
>>>> On 15/04/2022 8:44 pm, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>> On 4/15/2022 3:36 AM, Richard Maher wrote:
>>>>>> Something like Kestrel that talks HTTP and can pass JSON to 3GL
>>>>>> code a la mode de TIER3. FIDO2 Authentication support.
>>>>>
>>>>> Both Java and Python can provide nice embedded HTTP servers, do
>>>>> JSON and
>>>>> potentially interact with native code (Cobol or otherwise), but
>>>>> obvious
>>>>> question is whether it wouldn't be better to do it all in either
>>>>> Java or Python.
>>>>
>>>> This is the biggest mistake VMS has made for 20 years; throw away
>>>> the existing
>>>> customer base :-(
>>>
>>> Using the right tool for the job is hardly throwing away the
>>> customer base.
>>>
>>> Cobol, Basic, Pascal, C etc. is just not the optimal language
>>> for writing a new web service.
>>>
>>> Not on any platform.
>>
>> Really depends on the web service, doesn't it?
>
> Like maybe, IBM zSystem running COBOL with CICS and a DB2 backend.

I don't see that combo as special.

CGI scripts in Cobol or PL/I would require the developers
to write maybe 10 times as much code and the result would
perform really bad.

Java or Python frontend calling C wrapper calling Cobol
or PL/I code may be doable, but comes with a lot of risks
due to potentially incompatible threading/transactional/whatever
models.

Neither seems attractive to me.

Doing it all in Java is possible (Java on z works
with CICS and DB2). Maybe it is also possible to do
it all in Python (Python does support DB2 but I don't
know about CICS - and I would probably prefer Java over
Python for such code anyway).

If the use case allows for async updates then it would
be easy to have Java or Python read directly from DB2
but send all updates to IBM MQ and have some regular
Cobol or PL/I code handle the actual update (there are
most likely existing code there that can be reused).

Arne

On 4/16/2022 11:02 AM, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
> Den 2022-04-16 kl. 13:28, skrev Bill Gunshannon:
>> On 4/15/22 22:10, Dave Froble wrote:
>>> On 4/15/2022 7:25 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> Cobol, Basic, Pascal, C etc. is just not the optimal language
>>>> for writing a new web service.
>>>>
>>>> Not on any platform.
>>>
>>> Really depends on the web service, doesn't it?
>
> And on the *definition* of "web services".

There may not be a formal definition, but most developers have
a common understanding what such a thing is.

Something like: a service intended to be used by client applications
based on web protocols typical XML/HTTP(S) or JSON/HTTP(S).

Arne

On 4/16/2022 6:14 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 4/16/2022 11:02 AM, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
>> Den 2022-04-16 kl. 13:28, skrev Bill Gunshannon:
>>> On 4/15/22 22:10, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>> On 4/15/2022 7:25 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>> Cobol, Basic, Pascal, C etc. is just not the optimal language
>>>>> for writing a new web service.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not on any platform.
>>>>
>>>> Really depends on the web service, doesn't it?
>>
>> And on the *definition* of "web services".
>
> There may not be a formal definition, but most developers have
> a common understanding what such a thing is.
>
> Something like: a service intended to be used by client applications
> based on web protocols typical XML/HTTP(S) or JSON/HTTP(S).
>
> Arne
>

Well, there you go again, refining the definition to match your claims. Of
course that makes you right.

How about anything that offers some service that might be needed over the internet?

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 4/16/22 18:09, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 4/16/2022 7:28 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 4/15/22 22:10, Dave Froble wrote:
>>> On 4/15/2022 7:25 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> On 4/15/2022 7:17 PM, Richard Maher wrote:
>>>>> On 15/04/2022 8:44 pm, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/15/2022 3:36 AM, Richard Maher wrote:
>>>>>>> Something like Kestrel that talks HTTP and can pass JSON to 3GL
>>>>>>> code a la mode de TIER3. FIDO2 Authentication support.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Both Java and Python can provide nice embedded HTTP servers, do
>>>>>> JSON and
>>>>>> potentially interact with native code (Cobol or otherwise), but
>>>>>> obvious
>>>>>> question is whether it wouldn't be better to do it all in either
>>>>>> Java or Python.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is the biggest mistake VMS has made for 20 years; throw away
>>>>> the existing
>>>>> customer base :-(
>>>>
>>>> Using the right tool for the job is hardly throwing away the
>>>> customer base.
>>>>
>>>> Cobol, Basic, Pascal, C etc. is just not the optimal language
>>>> for writing a new web service.
>>>>
>>>> Not on any platform.
>>>
>>> Really depends on the web service, doesn't it?
>>
>> Like maybe, IBM zSystem running COBOL with CICS and a DB2 backend.
>
> I don't see that combo as special.
>
> CGI scripts in Cobol or PL/I would require the developers
> to write maybe 10 times as much code and the result would
> perform really bad.
>
> Java or Python frontend calling C wrapper calling Cobol
> or PL/I code may be doable, but comes with a lot of risks
> due to potentially incompatible threading/transactional/whatever
> models.

Why would you need all of that? COBOL does CICS and CICS does
the web. No extra code required.

>
> Neither seems attractive to me.
>
> Doing it all in Java is possible (Java on z works
> with CICS and DB2). Maybe it is also possible to do
> it all in Python (Python does support DB2 but I don't
> know about CICS - and I would probably prefer Java over
> Python for such code anyway).
>
> If the use case allows for async updates then it would
> be easy to have Java or Python read directly from DB2
> but send all updates to IBM MQ and have some regular
> Cobol or PL/I code handle the actual update (there are
> most likely existing code there that can be reused).
>

IBM COBOL does Embedded CICS just like Embedded SQL.
It can all be done without any of the wrappers people
seem so enthralled with.

As for the non-IBM side. I have done a number of proof of
concept COBOL <-> WEB systems back in my academia days.
It's actually easier than PHP. Cleaner than PHP. Easier to
understand than PHP. And definitely more secure than PHP.

bill

On 4/16/22 5:25 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 4/16/2022 6:14 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 4/16/2022 11:02 AM, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
>>> Den 2022-04-16 kl. 13:28, skrev Bill Gunshannon:
>>>> On 4/15/22 22:10, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>>> On 4/15/2022 7:25 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>> Cobol, Basic, Pascal, C etc. is just not the optimal language
>>>>>> for writing a new web service.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not on any platform.
>>>>>
>>>>> Really depends on the web service, doesn't it?
>>>
>>> And on the *definition* of "web services".
>>
>> There may not be a formal definition, but most developers have
>> a common understanding what such a thing is.
>>
>> Something like: a service intended to be used by client applications
>> based on web protocols typical XML/HTTP(S) or JSON/HTTP(S).
>>
>> Arne
>>
>
> Well, there you go again, refining the definition to match your claims.
> Of course that makes you right.
>
> How about anything that offers some service that might be needed over
> the internet?

Nope. That would be an internet service. A web service uses some
version of the HTTP protocol. While that doesn't necessarily imply
REST, the simplicity of REST has made web services largely eclipse older
client-server protocols such as SOAP or Java RMI.

Den 2022-04-17 kl. 00:25, skrev Dave Froble:
> On 4/16/2022 6:14 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 4/16/2022 11:02 AM, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
>>> Den 2022-04-16 kl. 13:28, skrev Bill Gunshannon:
>>>> On 4/15/22 22:10, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>>> On 4/15/2022 7:25 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>> Cobol, Basic, Pascal, C etc. is just not the optimal language
>>>>>> for writing a new web service.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not on any platform.
>>>>>
>>>>> Really depends on the web service, doesn't it?
>>>
>>> And on the *definition* of "web services".
>>
>> There may not be a formal definition, but most developers have
>> a common understanding what such a thing is.
>>
>> Something like: a service intended to be used by client applications
>> based on web protocols typical XML/HTTP(S) or JSON/HTTP(S).
>>
>> Arne
>>
>
> Well, there you go again, refining the definition to match your claims.  Of
> course that makes you right.
>
> How about anything that offers some service that might be needed over the
> internet?
>

That is not the common definition. "The internet" is a lot of other
things than "the web". The web is usualy defined by a collectins of
protocols and there are manby other protocols used on the internet.

Note that "the internet" and "the web" is not the same thing.

You can create a socket listener that clients conects to, but that
has very litle to do with "the web".

As Arne also wrote, a "web service" use the protocols that are used
between web client (usually web browsers) and web servers. The web
servers then uses web services server processes.

A traditional "socket listener" is not a "web service".