In article <jopd9tFf57pU1@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
<bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> writes:

> On 9/18/22 11:19, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> > In article <jooqruFccnfU1@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
> > <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> writes:
> >
> >> That's probably because most serious VMS users moved out of the 80's
> >> a long time ago. Being as VMS has apparently given up on the desktop
> >> permanently what would you expect most VMS users to be using on their
> >> desktop?
> >
> > If you are using VMS, it doesn't have to be on your desktop, but it
> > could be.
>
> Maybe if your still running a VAX. I thought VSI said "No desktop"?

Some VAXes will fit on a desktop. Some Alphas. Perhaps some Itaniums.
Presumably some x86.

What does "desktop" mean? If it means using Microsoft products, then of
course VMS on the desktop or the desktop on VMS makes no sense. If it
means literally on the desk then of course often no problem. If it
means use it for email, reading usenet, etc., then I prefer to do that
on VMS than to any other platform.

VSI has said that they will support the on-chip graphics, so presumably
one can continue to run DECterms, CDE, whatever.

Back to the license stuff. They have a file which is used on VMS which
was zipped. Why not zip it on VMS? Or at least pretend to be a
customer and test whatever they send out before sending it out.

Den 2022-09-18 kl. 23:37, skrev Phillip Helbig (undress to reply):
> In article <jopd9tFf57pU1@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
> <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 9/18/22 11:19, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>> In article <jooqruFccnfU1@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
>>> <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> That's probably because most serious VMS users moved out of the 80's
>>>> a long time ago. Being as VMS has apparently given up on the desktop
>>>> permanently what would you expect most VMS users to be using on their
>>>> desktop?
>>>
>>> If you are using VMS, it doesn't have to be on your desktop, but it
>>> could be.
>>
>> Maybe if your still running a VAX. I thought VSI said "No desktop"?
>
> Some VAXes will fit on a desktop. Some Alphas. Perhaps some Itaniums.
> Presumably some x86.
>
> What does "desktop" mean? If it means using Microsoft products, then of
> course VMS on the desktop or the desktop on VMS makes no sense. If it
> means literally on the desk then of course often no problem. If it
> means use it for email, reading usenet, etc., then I prefer to do that
> on VMS than to any other platform.
>
> VSI has said that they will support the on-chip graphics, so presumably
> one can continue to run DECterms, CDE, whatever.
>
> Back to the license stuff. They have a file which is used on VMS which
> was zipped. Why not zip it on VMS? Or at least pretend to be a
> customer and test whatever they send out before sending it out.
>

Since it is a licens file that might be used for a system with
no previous license, it might be best to make sure that it is
readable on your desktop system to be copy/pasted into the
console using some terminal emulator.

Not having some unique VMS record format that just becomes
a mess if tried to be read on some other system.

On 9/18/22 17:37, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> In article <jopd9tFf57pU1@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
> <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 9/18/22 11:19, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>> In article <jooqruFccnfU1@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
>>> <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> That's probably because most serious VMS users moved out of the 80's
>>>> a long time ago. Being as VMS has apparently given up on the desktop
>>>> permanently what would you expect most VMS users to be using on their
>>>> desktop?
>>>
>>> If you are using VMS, it doesn't have to be on your desktop, but it
>>> could be.
>>
>> Maybe if your still running a VAX. I thought VSI said "No desktop"?
>
> Some VAXes will fit on a desktop. Some Alphas. Perhaps some Itaniums.
> Presumably some x86.

I think everyone knows that the term desktop does not refer to the
physical size of the box.

>
> What does "desktop" mean? If it means using Microsoft products, then of
> course VMS on the desktop or the desktop on VMS makes no sense. If it
> means literally on the desk then of course often no problem. If it
> means use it for email, reading usenet, etc., then I prefer to do that
> on VMS than to any other platform.

It means the ability to do the things that people today do from their
desktop. Word Processing, Spreadsheet, yes, email and the web. It
does not mean using Microsoft products. I have to basic desktops I
use every day. One is Linux and one is Windows. And even on the
Windows box I use no Microsoft products other than the OS that came
with the box when I got it.

>
> VSI has said that they will support the on-chip graphics, so presumably
> one can continue to run DECterms, CDE, whatever.

Which still won't allow any current technology applications like a
real web browser.

>
> Back to the license stuff. They have a file which is used on VMS which
> was zipped. Why not zip it on VMS? Or at least pretend to be a
> customer and test whatever they send out before sending it out.

Funny, I had no problem unzipping it or looking at the contents.
And when the time comes to install it on a VMS system cut and paste
will work just fine. Actually, a lot better than it used to as
the LP PAK used to be more than a dozen pages long and now appears
to be a single license.

bill

On 9/18/22 17:51, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
> Den 2022-09-18 kl. 23:37, skrev Phillip Helbig (undress to reply):
>> In article <jopd9tFf57pU1@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
>> <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 9/18/22 11:19, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>>> In article <jooqruFccnfU1@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
>>>> <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> That's probably because most serious VMS users moved out of the 80's
>>>>> a long time ago.  Being as VMS has apparently given up on the desktop
>>>>> permanently what would you expect most VMS users to be using on their
>>>>> desktop?
>>>>
>>>> If you are using VMS, it doesn't have to be on your desktop, but it
>>>> could be.
>>>
>>> Maybe if your still running a VAX.  I thought VSI said "No desktop"?
>>
>> Some VAXes will fit on a desktop.  Some Alphas.  Perhaps some Itaniums.
>> Presumably some x86.
>>
>> What does "desktop" mean?  If it means using Microsoft products, then of
>> course VMS on the desktop or the desktop on VMS makes no sense.  If it
>> means literally on the desk then of course often no problem.  If it
>> means use it for email, reading usenet, etc., then I prefer to do that
>> on VMS than to any other platform.
>>
>> VSI has said that they will support the on-chip graphics, so presumably
>> one can continue to run DECterms, CDE, whatever.
>>
>> Back to the license stuff.  They have a file which is used on VMS which
>> was zipped.  Why not zip it on VMS?  Or at least pretend to be a
>> customer and test whatever they send out before sending it out.
>>
>
> Since it is a licens file that might be used for a system with
> no previous license, it might be best to make sure that it is
> readable on your desktop system to be copy/pasted into the
> console using some terminal emulator.
>
> Not having some unique VMS record format that just becomes
> a mess if tried to be read on some other system.
>

Cut and paste works fine for moving small text files onto a
system, too. But I usually just cut and paste it to the "$"
prompt.

bill

> Not having some unique VMS record format that just becomes
> a mess if tried to be read on some other system.

So far as I know, "some unique VMS record format" is not needed.
Which part of the following was unclear?:

> Who says that "a Windows compatilble file" can't also be naturally
> VMS-compatible? If you fetch any of the software kits from
> antinode.info, do you have any trouble reading the text files in them on
> a Windows system?

> Funny, I had no problem unzipping it or looking at the contents.

Thanks for that clear, precise description of exactly what you did.

In article <tg83tq$eefm$1@dont-email.me>,
=?UTF-8?Q?Jan-Erik_S=c3=b6derholm?= <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com>
writes:

> > Back to the license stuff. They have a file which is used on VMS which
> > was zipped. Why not zip it on VMS? Or at least pretend to be a
> > customer and test whatever they send out before sending it out.
>
> Since it is a licens file that might be used for a system with
> no previous license, it might be best to make sure that it is
> readable on your desktop system to be copy/pasted into the
> console using some terminal emulator.
>
> Not having some unique VMS record format that just becomes
> a mess if tried to be read on some other system.

It should be both. Yes, it should be possible to read it elsewhere and
type it in. But most licenses are renewed before the old one expires,
so it is nice to be able to just execute the procedure.

Den 2022-09-19 kl. 07:16, skrev Steven Schweda:
>> Not having some unique VMS record format that just becomes
>> a mess if tried to be read on some other system.
>
> So far as I know, "some unique VMS record format" is not needed.
> Which part of the following was unclear?:
>
>> Who says that "a Windows compatilble file" can't also be naturally
>> VMS-compatible? If you fetch any of the software kits from
>> antinode.info, do you have any trouble reading the text files in them on
>> a Windows system?
>

I was talkning about readme files and source code from VMS kits in
general. I have no idea what the antinode files specifically look like.

Of course usual CR/LF or CR delimted files are usually OK.
But VMS variable records (with that length paramater at the start)
usually just becomes a mess on Windows.

>
>> Funny, I had no problem unzipping it or looking at the contents.
>
> Thanks for that clear, precise description of exactly what you did.

> I was talkning about readme files and source code from VMS kits in
> general. [...]

I don't know what that means.

> [...] I have no idea what the antinode files specifically look like.

I invite you to investigate. Preferably before further discussing
the inevitability of an easily avoidable problem.

> Of course usual CR/LF or CR delimted files are usually OK.

Of course, "usually" is not good enough

> But VMS variable records (with that length paramater at the start)
> usually just becomes a mess on Windows.

Well, duh. VSI has already demonstrated that this job can be done
badly. And they didn't need variable-length records to do it.

So far as I know, the methods which I use to build my kits escape
such defects, whether or not you bother to look at them.

Den 2022-09-19 kl. 18:47, skrev Steven Schweda:
>> I was talkning about readme files and source code from VMS kits in
>> general. [...]
>
> I don't know what that means.
>
>> [...] I have no idea what the antinode files specifically look like.
>
> I invite you to investigate. Preferably before further discussing
> the inevitability of an easily avoidable problem.
>
>> Of course usual CR/LF or CR delimted files are usually OK.
>
> Of course, "usually" is not good enough
>
>> But VMS variable records (with that length paramater at the start)
>> usually just becomes a mess on Windows.
>
> Well, duh. VSI has already demonstrated that this job can be done
> badly. And they didn't need variable-length records to do it.
>
> So far as I know, the methods which I use to build my kits escape
> such defects, whether or not you bother to look at them.

I have never (as far as I know) said that *your* kits have any
issue, I rather would think the opposit.

I do not know why you are taking this personaly...

I often *do* have issues reading text files (like read-me files
or source code) from zipped VMS kits. In many cases this is due
to that the original files had variable-length records.

I do not understand why you have a problem with that...

> I do not know why you are taking this personaly...

What's personal? I'm simply bewildered by your apparent
unwillingness to admit that the only problem here is a failure to use
widely available tools in a way which avoids the problem.

> I often *do* have issues reading text files (like read-me files
> or source code) from zipped VMS kits. In many cases this is due
> to that the original files had variable-length records.

Without knowing how these unspecified "zipped VMS kits" were made, or
how you handled them, I can't say why you had trouble. I would note,
however, that Info-ZIP UnZip on non-VMS systems has long had a
"VMS_TEXT_CONV" option (enabled by default -- See "unzip -v"), which is
supposed to deal helpfully with such files. If you rely on other unzip
programs which lack such a feature, then you might complain to their
authors. (If you see Info-ZIP UnZip misbehaving, then feel free to
complain to me.)

> I do not understand why you have a problem with that...

It's simply irrelevant to the problem with the recent VSI-generated
*_COMMUNITY_LICENSE_PAK.zip archives. (Whose files contained no such
variable-length records.)

Den 2022-09-20 kl. 04:14, skrev Steven Schweda:
>> I do not know why you are taking this personaly...
>
> What's personal? I'm simply bewildered by your apparent
> unwillingness to admit that the only problem here is a failure to use
> widely available tools in a way which avoids the problem.

And that causes the issues that I have described.
I have never said that it can't be avoided.

>
>> I often *do* have issues reading text files (like read-me files
>> or source code) from zipped VMS kits. In many cases this is due
>> to that the original files had variable-length records.
>
> Without knowing how these unspecified "zipped VMS kits" were made,

I never expected you to know that. Cool down... :-)

> or
> how you handled them,

I just opened it as any other ZIP file on my laptop.
Windows explorer opens and displays ZIP files just fine.
But it knows nothing about VMS-specific file/record formats.

> I can't say why you had trouble. I would note,
> however, that Info-ZIP UnZip on non-VMS systems has long had a
> "VMS_TEXT_CONV" option (enabled by default -- See "unzip -v"), which is
> supposed to deal helpfully with such files. If you rely on other unzip
> programs which lack such a feature, then you might complain to their
> authors. (If you see Info-ZIP UnZip misbehaving, then feel free to
> complain to me.)
>

No, I have never said anything like that. I still do not know why
you think that I'm complaining to you or on your work. Weird...

>> I do not understand why you have a problem with that...
>
> It's simply irrelevant to the problem with the recent VSI-generated
> *_COMMUNITY_LICENSE_PAK.zip archives. (Whose files contained no such
> variable-length records.)

Yes! Absolutely correct. Those file worked just fine.
That is why made my comment that this is not always the case.

On 2022-09-18, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Cut and paste works fine for moving small text files onto a
> system, too. But I usually just cut and paste it to the "$"
> prompt.
>

I find C-Kermit's TRANSMIT command to be very useful for situations
like this.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 9/20/22 13:49, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-09-18, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Cut and paste works fine for moving small text files onto a
>> system, too. But I usually just cut and paste it to the "$"
>> prompt.
>>
>
> I find C-Kermit's TRANSMIT command to be very useful for situations
> like this.

I only use C-Kermit when I need to transfer files using the
Kermit Protocol. Without any form of terminal emulation it
isn't really of much use. MSKermit, however, has always had
really good DEC Terminal emulation.

bill

On 2022-09-20, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 9/20/22 13:49, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2022-09-18, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Cut and paste works fine for moving small text files onto a
>>> system, too. But I usually just cut and paste it to the "$"
>>> prompt.
>>>
>>
>> I find C-Kermit's TRANSMIT command to be very useful for situations
>> like this.
>
> I only use C-Kermit when I need to transfer files using the
> Kermit Protocol. Without any form of terminal emulation it
> isn't really of much use. MSKermit, however, has always had
> really good DEC Terminal emulation.
>

But that isn't how you run C-Kermit.

You run C-Kermit from a shell (ie: bash) running within a terminal
emulator (ie: xterm) and then use C-Kermit's CONNECT command to
connect to the target system.

Your terminal emulator provides the required terminal emulation.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 9/20/22 14:30, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-09-20, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 9/20/22 13:49, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> On 2022-09-18, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Cut and paste works fine for moving small text files onto a
>>>> system, too. But I usually just cut and paste it to the "$"
>>>> prompt.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I find C-Kermit's TRANSMIT command to be very useful for situations
>>> like this.
>>
>> I only use C-Kermit when I need to transfer files using the
>> Kermit Protocol. Without any form of terminal emulation it
>> isn't really of much use. MSKermit, however, has always had
>> really good DEC Terminal emulation.
>>
>
> But that isn't how you run C-Kermit.
>
> You run C-Kermit from a shell (ie: bash) running within a terminal
> emulator (ie: xterm) and then use C-Kermit's CONNECT command to
> connect to the target system.
>
> Your terminal emulator provides the required terminal emulation.

Xterm is a very poor DEC Emulator. Not bad if you need
Tektronix but otherwise.....

bill

On 2022-09-20, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 9/20/22 14:30, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>
>> But that isn't how you run C-Kermit.
>>
>> You run C-Kermit from a shell (ie: bash) running within a terminal
>> emulator (ie: xterm) and then use C-Kermit's CONNECT command to
>> connect to the target system.
>>
>> Your terminal emulator provides the required terminal emulation.
>
> Xterm is a very poor DEC Emulator. Not bad if you need
> Tektronix but otherwise.....
>

There's also pterm if you prefer that...

BTW, you do need a proper keyboard mapping script unfortunately, but
I find xterm to be quite usable when talking to VMS systems and when
using the application keypad mode generally.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2022-09-20 20:40, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 9/20/22 14:30, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2022-09-20, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 9/20/22 13:49, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>> On 2022-09-18, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Cut and paste works fine for moving small text files onto a
>>>>> system, too.  But I usually just cut and paste it to the "$"
>>>>> prompt.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I find C-Kermit's TRANSMIT command to be very useful for situations
>>>> like this.
>>>
>>> I only use C-Kermit when I need to transfer files using the
>>> Kermit Protocol.  Without any form of terminal emulation it
>>> isn't really of much use.  MSKermit, however, has always had
>>> really good DEC Terminal emulation.
>>>
>>
>> But that isn't how you run C-Kermit.
>>
>> You run C-Kermit from a shell (ie: bash) running within a terminal
>> emulator (ie: xterm) and then use C-Kermit's CONNECT command to
>> connect to the target system.
>>
>> Your terminal emulator provides the required terminal emulation.
>
> Xterm is a very poor DEC Emulator.  Not bad if you need
> Tektronix but otherwise.....

Nonsense. xterm is the best DEC terminal emulator out there, possibly
excluding DEC's own products they sold once upon a time.

Tell me of one you think is better, and I'll tell you where it fails
while xterm works right. :-)

Johnny

On 2022-09-20 20:45, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-09-20, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 9/20/22 14:30, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>
>>> But that isn't how you run C-Kermit.
>>>
>>> You run C-Kermit from a shell (ie: bash) running within a terminal
>>> emulator (ie: xterm) and then use C-Kermit's CONNECT command to
>>> connect to the target system.
>>>
>>> Your terminal emulator provides the required terminal emulation.
>>
>> Xterm is a very poor DEC Emulator. Not bad if you need
>> Tektronix but otherwise.....
>>
>
> There's also pterm if you prefer that...
>
> BTW, you do need a proper keyboard mapping script unfortunately, but
> I find xterm to be quite usable when talking to VMS systems and when
> using the application keypad mode generally.

I agree in principle, but am constantly confused about people saying
they need to do all kind of keyboard mapping scripts with xterm.

I've been using xterm for over 30 years, and I've never had to do that,
and been using it against VMS and RSX all the time, and *all* keys work
as you would expect. Both on old sparc stations, DECstations as well as
my MacBook Pro's that I use these days. Haven't even changed anything in
my configuration for the last 20 years or so. Same stuff still works the
same way across the different platforms.

Johnny

On 2022-09-21, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
> On 2022-09-20 20:45, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>
>> BTW, you do need a proper keyboard mapping script unfortunately, but
>> I find xterm to be quite usable when talking to VMS systems and when
>> using the application keypad mode generally.
>
> I agree in principle, but am constantly confused about people saying
> they need to do all kind of keyboard mapping scripts with xterm.
>
> I've been using xterm for over 30 years, and I've never had to do that,
> and been using it against VMS and RSX all the time, and *all* keys work
> as you would expect. Both on old sparc stations, DECstations as well as
> my MacBook Pro's that I use these days. Haven't even changed anything in
> my configuration for the last 20 years or so. Same stuff still works the
> same way across the different platforms.
>

PF1 to PF4 mapping. Are they on F1 to F4 or are they on the top row of
the numeric keypad ?

Do you use application keypad mode ?

Do you use the editing keys between the main keyboard and the numeric keypad?

I had problems with all of these under Linux until I used a keyboard mapping
script and I have continued to use the same setup over the years.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2022-09-21 14:26, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-09-21, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
>> On 2022-09-20 20:45, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>
>>> BTW, you do need a proper keyboard mapping script unfortunately, but
>>> I find xterm to be quite usable when talking to VMS systems and when
>>> using the application keypad mode generally.
>>
>> I agree in principle, but am constantly confused about people saying
>> they need to do all kind of keyboard mapping scripts with xterm.
>>
>> I've been using xterm for over 30 years, and I've never had to do that,
>> and been using it against VMS and RSX all the time, and *all* keys work
>> as you would expect. Both on old sparc stations, DECstations as well as
>> my MacBook Pro's that I use these days. Haven't even changed anything in
>> my configuration for the last 20 years or so. Same stuff still works the
>> same way across the different platforms.
>>
>
> PF1 to PF4 mapping. Are they on F1 to F4 or are they on the top row of
> the numeric keypad ?

F1 to F4, since the top row of the numeric keypad have keys that are
also on the DEC numeric keypad which I also want. Can't have it both
ways. The DEC numeric keypad have more keys than any PC or Apple
keyboard have.

> Do you use application keypad mode ?

Yes.

> Do you use the editing keys between the main keyboard and the numeric keypad?

Yes.

> I had problems with all of these under Linux until I used a keyboard mapping
> script and I have continued to use the same setup over the years.

All working as well as I could ever wish or expect. And yeah, I even use
EDT from time to time, all behaving nicely. No mapping scripts ever used.

But it took some time to figure out how to actually setup xterm
correctly. But I did that a long time ago, and once it was figured out,
I've never had to do it again.

Johnny

On 2022-09-21 10:56, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2022-09-20 20:40, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 9/20/22 14:30, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> On 2022-09-20, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 9/20/22 13:49, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-09-18, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cut and paste works fine for moving small text files onto a
>>>>>> system, too.  But I usually just cut and paste it to the "$"
>>>>>> prompt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I find C-Kermit's TRANSMIT command to be very useful for situations
>>>>> like this.
>>>>
>>>> I only use C-Kermit when I need to transfer files using the
>>>> Kermit Protocol.  Without any form of terminal emulation it
>>>> isn't really of much use.  MSKermit, however, has always had
>>>> really good DEC Terminal emulation.
>>>>
>>>
>>> But that isn't how you run C-Kermit.
>>>
>>> You run C-Kermit from a shell (ie: bash) running within a terminal
>>> emulator (ie: xterm) and then use C-Kermit's CONNECT command to
>>> connect to the target system.
>>>
>>> Your terminal emulator provides the required terminal emulation.
>>
>> Xterm is a very poor DEC Emulator.  Not bad if you need
>> Tektronix but otherwise.....
>
> Nonsense. xterm is the best DEC terminal emulator out there, possibly
> excluding DEC's own products they sold once upon a time.
>
> Tell me of one you think is better, and I'll tell you where it fails
> while xterm works right. :-)

By the way. I should perhaps point out that people from DEC were
involved in writing xterm. So it comes from the horses mouth, so to
speak. And I've even fixed a bug in xterm related to escape sequence
processing a number of years ago, so I had to go through the code some.
It is actually rather nice code.

Johnny

On 9/22/22 04:29, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2022-09-21 14:26, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2022-09-21, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
>>> On 2022-09-20 20:45, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>>
>>>> BTW, you do need a proper keyboard mapping script unfortunately, but
>>>> I find xterm to be quite usable when talking to VMS systems and when
>>>> using the application keypad mode generally.
>>>
>>> I agree in principle, but am constantly confused about people saying
>>> they need to do all kind of keyboard mapping scripts with xterm.
>>>
>>> I've been using xterm for over 30 years, and I've never had to do that,
>>> and been using it against VMS and RSX all the time, and *all* keys work
>>> as you would expect. Both on old sparc stations, DECstations as well as
>>> my MacBook Pro's that I use these days. Haven't even changed anything in
>>> my configuration for the last 20 years or so. Same stuff still works the
>>> same way across the different platforms.
>>>
>>
>> PF1 to PF4 mapping. Are they on F1 to F4 or are they on the top row of
>> the numeric keypad ?
>
> F1 to F4, since the top row of the numeric keypad have keys that are
> also on the DEC numeric keypad which I also want. Can't have it both
> ways. The DEC numeric keypad have more keys than any PC or Apple
> keyboard have.
>
>> Do you use application keypad mode ?
>
> Yes.
>
>> Do you use the editing keys between the main keyboard and the numeric
>> keypad?
>
> Yes.
>
>> I had problems with all of these under Linux until I used a keyboard
>> mapping
>> script and I have continued to use the same setup over the years.
>
> All working as well as I could ever wish or expect. And yeah, I even use
> EDT from time to time, all behaving nicely. No mapping scripts ever used.
>
> But it took some time to figure out how to actually setup xterm
> correctly. But I did that a long time ago, and once it was figured out,
> I've never had to do it again.

I haven't tried using xterm with VMS since I got rid of my last Sparc-3.
Never had any luck with the keypad. Found alternates and never looked
back. Usually ran DECWindows to an X-Terminal (I still have a VXT2000
but it is in need of new electrolytics) so it was really a non-issue
anyway. Today it is usually just Putty to the console port but my VMS
usage is greatly reduced from the good old days.

bill

On 2022-09-22, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
> On 2022-09-21 14:26, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>
>> PF1 to PF4 mapping. Are they on F1 to F4 or are they on the top row of
>> the numeric keypad ?
>
> F1 to F4, since the top row of the numeric keypad have keys that are
> also on the DEC numeric keypad which I also want. Can't have it both
> ways. The DEC numeric keypad have more keys than any PC or Apple
> keyboard have.
>

For me, having PF1 to PF4 on F1 to F4 is an absolute no-no. I use the EDT
keypad layout heavily every single day and I can't have my fingers flying
across the keyboard every time I need to press one of those keys.

For me, they need to be on the top of the keypad and I do remember that
being a problem in the early days of using xterm. I don't know if things
are better now.

BTW, the only missing key for me on a PC keypad is delete word, which is
something I never used anyway.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2022-09-22 14:29, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-09-22, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
>> On 2022-09-21 14:26, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>
>>> PF1 to PF4 mapping. Are they on F1 to F4 or are they on the top row of
>>> the numeric keypad ?
>>
>> F1 to F4, since the top row of the numeric keypad have keys that are
>> also on the DEC numeric keypad which I also want. Can't have it both
>> ways. The DEC numeric keypad have more keys than any PC or Apple
>> keyboard have.
>>
>
> For me, having PF1 to PF4 on F1 to F4 is an absolute no-no. I use the EDT
> keypad layout heavily every single day and I can't have my fingers flying
> across the keyboard every time I need to press one of those keys.

Ah. Well, that would be a problem for you then.

> For me, they need to be on the top of the keypad and I do remember that
> being a problem in the early days of using xterm. I don't know if things
> are better now.

Most of the time not, since the choice made in xterm was to use F1-F4
for PF1-PF4. Which is pretty harmless, as a real DEC terminal normally
cannot use F1-F5 anyway, as they are used for local operations.

But yes, these keys are usually physically quite some distance away from
the numeric keyboard.

> BTW, the only missing key for me on a PC keypad is delete word, which is
> something I never used anyway.

And I'm fine with reaching over to F1-F4 when I need those. It's all
different compromises. I can generate all keys I could on a DEC
keyboard, which for me is more important than the location of PF1-PF4.

Johnny

For my main system (W10, standard PC keyboard), I use PuTTY out-of-the-box.
I leave it set to Latin-1 and don't bother with DEC-MCS. I edit with LSE almost all
of the time and use the full keypad with no problems. I also use DTM with the
keypad as those finger motions to look/update benchmarks are burned deep in
my brain.

When I use my MacBook, I use iTerm2 and did have to work on the settings for
the top row of the keypad to get them to be PF1-PF4 but after that, they work great.
I can get them out and share if there is interest.