On 9/21/22 09:30, Craig A. Berry wrote:
>
>
>
> I just tried it with XQuartz 2.8.2.  VMS recognizes it as VT400_Series
> with "VMS Style Input," but backspace is mapped to control-H, not
> backspace

Ummm... BACKSPACE is control-H. At least as defined by ASCII.
The BACKSPACE key in most of the terminals I have used sends DELETE
but also most terminal programs I have used have the built in option
to map it either way.

bill

On 9/21/22 9:42 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 9/21/22 09:30, Craig A. Berry wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> I just tried it with XQuartz 2.8.2.  VMS recognizes it as VT400_Series
>> with "VMS Style Input," but backspace is mapped to control-H, not
>> backspace
>
> Ummm...  BACKSPACE is control-H.  At least as defined by ASCII.
> The BACKSPACE key in most of the terminals I have used sends DELETE
> but also most terminal programs I have used have the built in option
> to map it either way.

Yes, it is a setting in the terminal or emulator, usually the default
setting, but not on xterm, which purportedly needs no configuration. I
maintain that it does need configuration.

On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 9:13:34 AM UTC-4, Craig A. Berry wrote:
> On 9/21/22 12:24 AM, Steven Schweda wrote:
> >> They are there. They are even called PF1, PF2, PF3, PF4, etc. This with
> >> Terminal 2.12.7 on macOS 12.6, vt102 selected in the Advanced tab for
> >> "Declare terminal as."
> >
> > I don't see them here, either. Terminal Version 2.12.7 (445), macOS
> > 12.5.1.
> Hmm. I must've added them at some point but can't remember how. It
> sounds like Alan's problem was some accessibility setting he didn't
> want, possibly this one:
> <https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/control-the-pointer-using-mouse-keys-mh27469/mac>

Yes, but I could swear that at one point Mouse Keys was turned off and the problem persisted. And I couldn't reproduce certain aspects of the strange behavior afterwards.

On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 7:04:23 AM UTC-4, VAXman- wrote:
> In article <fc97f4a2-6e47-4dc8...@googlegroups.com>, "alanfe...@gmail.com" <alanfe...@gmail.com> writes:
> >Got my new Mac. Old one was running Mojave. Terminal on EISNER works fine f=
> >or editing. My new Mac is running Monterey. I run Terminal, open a file in =
> >EDT, and the numbers on the numeric keypad do nothing. They also do nothing=
> > at a DCL prompt. Also, the PF1-4 keys work from F1-F4, and F12 is BEGINNIN=
> >G OF LINE.
> >
> >Is there some secret setting I'm missing? Or do I need a 3rd-party app? And> > if so, can anyone here recommend one? Thanks!
> I'm still on Big Sewer and regretting ever allowing that update.
>
> I never really cared for the Terminal app. It functions when in a pinch but I
> have been using iTerm/iTerm2 for years. When I need to, I "$ CREATE/TERMINAL"
> because I have XQuartz installed. The keyboard has never been any problem but
> now that you've reported this, there's another reason to never upgrade again.
>
> --
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
>
> I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.

Yeah, macOS upgrades always seem to cause something cool to break or go bye-bye. But my internal hard drive died, not easy to replace, the machine is 7 years old, meaning Apple doesn't make parts for it anymore and will refuse to service it even for money, and the new M1 chip should definitely come in handy with NeatVideo noise reduction in my movies! (Final Cut has its own Noise Reduction function (which, IIRC, is also quite slow), but it doesn't work that well, and you can't fully turn off the sharpness setting, which seems to be what makes the result look a little grungy.)

VAXMAN, since you have Big Sur (uh, Big Sewer), do you have the same problem where ALL the shortcuts in the drop-down menus from the menu bar are all grayed out? At first I thought it was a bug and their possibly non-existent QA department was asleep at the wheel. Then, on the Apple "Support Communities" board, someone said it was by design. Say what? That is so hard to believe, I ruled it out without even consciously thinking about it. I asked why anyone would want it that way. The poster responded, Why would anyone not want it that way? A troll? An idiot? In order to stay in the good graces of the Apple police, I pretended it was a serious statement and proceeded to explain how stupid it is.

Someone else said it might be as old as Big Sur. So Sir, are ALL the shortcuts -- and I do mean including the active ones where the English part isn't grayed out -- grayed out? Or was that introduced in Catalina or Monterey, if you happen to know?

BTW, Terminal has worked fine for me, once they finally allowed me to map Clear, =, /, and * to the PFs. Actually, there is one problem: EDT (and I would guess other editors -- I should try them!) full screen mode wipes out part of the history buffer! Other than that, I've customized the font and am pretty happy with it. It's free and it's already there.

BTW, "Big Sewer" is definitely funnier than "WEENdoze."

On Wed, 2022-09-21 at 10:45 -0700, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
> BTW, Terminal has worked fine for me, once they finally allowed me to
> map Clear, =, /, and * to the PFs. Actually, there is one problem:
> EDT (and I would guess other editors -- I should try them!) full
> screen mode wipes out part of the history buffer! Other than that,
> I've customized the font and am pretty happy with it. It's free and
> it's already there.

I recently found a TrueType font 'Glass VT220' that looks exacrly like
a DEC VT220, set the text to green and background to black, set
terminal width and height to 132 columns and 43 columns and it's just
like I'm sat in front of a VT220 terminal in my Unversity days. Bliss.
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 6:31:17 AM UTC-7, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:

(snip)
> Is there some secret setting I'm missing? Or do I need a 3rd-party app? And if so, can anyone here recommend one? Thanks!

I often use terminal to ssh into Linux boxes.

It seems that $term is xterm-256color.
It is also that on OS X itself.

I haven't tried it from OS X to VMS recently, so I am not sure about that one.

Does VMS know about xterm-256color?

In article <af1f4659-efb8-428d-8cb5-4fb399bbe46an@googlegroups.com>, "alanfe...@gmail.com" <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
>On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 7:04:23 AM UTC-4, VAXman- wrote:
>> In article <fc97f4a2-6e47-4dc8...@googlegroups.com>, "alanfe...@gmail.com=
>" <alanfe...@gmail.com> writes:=20
>> >Got my new Mac. Old one was running Mojave. Terminal on EISNER works fin=
>e f=3D=20
>> >or editing. My new Mac is running Monterey. I run Terminal, open a file =
>in =3D=20
>> >EDT, and the numbers on the numeric keypad do nothing. They also do noth=
>ing=3D=20
>> > at a DCL prompt. Also, the PF1-4 keys work from F1-F4, and F12 is BEGIN=
>NIN=3D=20
>> >G OF LINE.=20
>> >=20
>> >Is there some secret setting I'm missing? Or do I need a 3rd-party app? =
>And=3D
>> > if so, can anyone here recommend one? Thanks!
>> I'm still on Big Sewer and regretting ever allowing that update.=20
>>=20
>> I never really cared for the Terminal app. It functions when in a pinch b=
>ut I=20
>> have been using iTerm/iTerm2 for years. When I need to, I "$ CREATE/TERMI=
>NAL"=20
>> because I have XQuartz installed. The keyboard has never been any problem=
> but=20
>> now that you've reported this, there's another reason to never upgrade ag=
>ain.=20
>>=20
>> --=20
>> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG=
>=20
>>=20
>> I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
>
>Yeah, macOS upgrades always seem to cause something cool to break or go bye=
>-bye. But my internal hard drive died, not easy to replace, the machine is =

I wouldn't have updated to Big Sewer in the first place. It was an accidental
update. I didn't want to go there because I had a number of 32-bit rocketry
apps that were never updated. I was able to overcome most of that save for 1
that reads the data off of my altimeters. :( I got my son's wife's sister's
old Mac now when has an older OSX so I can read my altimeter. Apple really
dicked up some apps I came accustomed to using. Thw weather widget is AFAIAC,
completely useless. If I want the current weather, I can look out the window;
the only windows I use.

>7 years old, meaning Apple doesn't make parts for it anymore and will refus=
>e to service it even for money, and the new M1 chip should definitely come =

I have a 2014 MacBook Air I use most of the time. I've replaced the keyboard
in it twice already and I just put in a new battery. Parts are readily avail-
able if you search the internet.

>in handy with NeatVideo noise reduction in my movies! (Final Cut has its ow=
>n Noise Reduction function (which, IIRC, is also quite slow), but it doesn'=
>t work that well, and you can't fully turn off the sharpness setting, which=
> seems to be what makes the result look a little grungy.)

I process video on the big Mac in the bedroom. Mostly my wife's Mac for the
taxes and her use, but it processes the video quickly. I don't touch her Mac
otheriwse because it's for the TurbotTax which seems to need the latest and
greatest to function each taxing season. So no matter what the cost, she gets
what she needs because I would off myself trying to figure out my way through
the government's I-will-gracously-be-your-victim-of-theft documents.

>VAXMAN, since you have Big Sur (uh, Big Sewer), do you have the same proble=
>m where ALL the shortcuts in the drop-down menus from the menu bar are all =
>grayed out? At first I thought it was a bug and their possibly non-existent=
> QA department was asleep at the wheel. Then, on the Apple "Support Communi=
>ties" board, someone said it was by design. Say what? That is so hard to be=
>lieve, I ruled it out without even consciously thinking about it. I asked w=
>hy anyone would want it that way. The poster responded, Why would anyone no=
>t want it that way? A troll? An idiot? In order to stay in the good graces =
>of the Apple police, I pretended it was a serious statement and proceeded t=
>o explain how stupid it is.

It depends upon what app is active. Finder seems to have the grayest menus.

>Someone else said it might be as old as Big Sur. So Sir, are ALL the shortc=
>uts -- and I do mean including the active ones where the English part isn't=
> grayed out -- grayed out? Or was that introduced in Catalina or Monterey, =
>if you happen to know?

FYI, it must have been an evil spirit I aroused this morning when I replied
to your post. The MacBook Air kernel paniced and it would not reboot. I put
it in to target disk mode and my youngest copied my VAXman folder over onto
his Mac. I then had to reinstall Big Sewer. I was hoping it would fix a bug
I've reported to Apple that they say that they can not reproduce. Something
is running and eating disk space. The activity monitor shows nothing. If I
don't reboot daily to free up 10s of gigs, I'm in big trouble quickly. It
appears to be something writing temp files but I can't find it. Rebooting
it causes all of the disk (SSD) consumed to be freed.

>BTW, Terminal has worked fine for me, once they finally allowed me to map C=
>lear, =3D, /, and * to the PFs. Actually, there is one problem: EDT (and I =
>would guess other editors -- I should try them!) full screen mode wipes out=
> part of the history buffer! Other than that, I've customized the font and =
>am pretty happy with it. It's free and it's already there.
>
>BTW, "Big Sewer" is definitely funnier than "WEENdoze."

FWIW, Safari, after today's reinstall, will no longer permit me to allow or
setup auto-play for some websites I access. I've re-re-installed Safari to
no avail. I've been working on a website and now I need to fire up Firefux
to hear any sounds. SMH.

Lately, it seems OSX has more quirks than it has works. ;)

--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.

On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 4:23:50 PM UTC-4, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
> On Wed, 2022-09-21 at 10:45 -0700, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
> > BTW, Terminal has worked fine for me, once they finally allowed me to
> > map Clear, =, /, and * to the PFs. Actually, there is one problem:
> > EDT (and I would guess other editors -- I should try them!) full
> > screen mode wipes out part of the history buffer! Other than that,
> > I've customized the font and am pretty happy with it. It's free and
> > it's already there.
> I recently found a TrueType font 'Glass VT220' that looks exacrly like
> a DEC VT220, set the text to green and background to black, set
> terminal width and height to 132 columns and 43 columns and it's just
> like I'm sat in front of a VT220 terminal in my Unversity days. Bliss.
> --
> Tactical Nuclear Kittens

Cool. Not sure I'd like the VT220 keyboards nowadays. They were fine long ago.

On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 6:19:01 PM UTC-4, VAXman- wrote:
> In article <af1f4659-efb8-428d...@googlegroups.com>, "alanfe...@gmail.com" <alanfe...@gmail.com> writes:
> >On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 7:04:23 AM UTC-4, VAXman- wrote:
> >> In article <fc97f4a2-6e47-4dc8...@googlegroups.com>, "alanfe...@gmail.com=
> >" <alanfe...@gmail.com> writes:=20
> >> >Got my new Mac. Old one was running Mojave. Terminal on EISNER works fin=
> >e f=3D=20
> >> >or editing. My new Mac is running Monterey. I run Terminal, open a file =
> >in =3D=20
> >> >EDT, and the numbers on the numeric keypad do nothing. They also do noth=
> >ing=3D=20
> >> > at a DCL prompt. Also, the PF1-4 keys work from F1-F4, and F12 is BEGIN=
> >NIN=3D=20
> >> >G OF LINE.=20
> >> >=20
> >> >Is there some secret setting I'm missing? Or do I need a 3rd-party app? =
> >And=3D
> >> > if so, can anyone here recommend one? Thanks!
> >> I'm still on Big Sewer and regretting ever allowing that update.=20
> >>=20
> >> I never really cared for the Terminal app. It functions when in a pinch b=
> >ut I=20
> >> have been using iTerm/iTerm2 for years. When I need to, I "$ CREATE/TERMI=
> >NAL"=20
> >> because I have XQuartz installed. The keyboard has never been any problem=
> > but=20
> >> now that you've reported this, there's another reason to never upgrade ag=
> >ain.=20
> >>=20
> >> --=20
> >> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG=
> >=20
> >>=20
> >> I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
> >
> >Yeah, macOS upgrades always seem to cause something cool to break or go bye=
> >-bye. But my internal hard drive died, not easy to replace, the machine is =
>
> I wouldn't have updated to Big Sewer in the first place. It was an accidental
> update. I didn't want to go there because I had a number of 32-bit rocketry
> apps that were never updated. I was able to overcome most of that save for 1
> that reads the data off of my altimeters. :( I got my son's wife's sister's
> old Mac now when has an older OSX so I can read my altimeter. Apple really
> dicked up some apps I came accustomed to using. Thw weather widget is AFAIAC,
> completely useless. If I want the current weather, I can look out the window;
> the only windows I use.

My own weather widget went south long ago. Just shows hyphens where there should be numbers.

But I really liked the calendar widget. I could easily zoom through years and months by holding the appropriate arrow key down. Or press the Home key to return to the current month. But it, too, is gone.

>
> >7 years old, meaning Apple doesn't make parts for it anymore and will refus=
> >e to service it even for money, and the new M1 chip should definitely come =
>
> I have a 2014 MacBook Air I use most of the time. I've replaced the keyboard
> in it twice already and I just put in a new battery. Parts are readily avail-
> able if you search the internet.

Yes, but that's probably risky. I suppose I could have replaced the drive with one from OWC and one of their DIY kits, but some jobs are not for newbies like me! And I think this was one of them. And my Time Machine restores didn't work quite right. A lot of files in the Movies and Music folders were missing. Yeah, I had to make and check lists of all the files to be sure they all made it over!

> >in handy with NeatVideo noise reduction in my movies! (Final Cut has its ow=
> >n Noise Reduction function (which, IIRC, is also quite slow), but it doesn'=
> >t work that well, and you can't fully turn off the sharpness setting, which> > seems to be what makes the result look a little grungy.
> I process video on the big Mac in the bedroom. Mostly my wife's Mac for the
> taxes and her use, but it processes the video quickly. I don't touch her Mac
> otheriwse because it's for the TurbotTax which seems to need the latest and
> greatest to function each taxing season. So no matter what the cost, she gets
> what she needs because I would off myself trying to figure out my way through
> the government's I-will-gracously-be-your-victim-of-theft documents.

Yes, just editing or exporting videos or uploading them to a website is fine. I'm talking about applying noise reduction and Neat Video's dust and scratch filter. They take some time to do their thing. And if you have to mask something frame-by-frame, you have to fly partly blind or struggle with painfully slow dragging. Hopefully, if I ever have to do that again, it should be smooth sailing with the M1. Again, just editing video is fine with a 7-year-old machine. It's the NR and DAS that takes a long time. Something like 1/8th X or worse. I think the best I ever got was about 1/6th X. With the M1 I assume it should go a lot faster. Also, I was fixing some nasty problems with a Super 8 film a friend and I made in 1976-1977.

>
>
> >VAXMAN, since you have Big Sur (uh, Big Sewer), do you have the same proble=
> >m where ALL the shortcuts in the drop-down menus from the menu bar are all =
> >grayed out? At first I thought it was a bug and their possibly non-existent=
> > QA department was asleep at the wheel. Then, on the Apple "Support Communi=
> >ties" board, someone said it was by design. Say what? That is so hard to be=
> >lieve, I ruled it out without even consciously thinking about it. I asked w=
> >hy anyone would want it that way. The poster responded, Why would anyone no=
> >t want it that way? A troll? An idiot? In order to stay in the good graces =
> >of the Apple police, I pretended it was a serious statement and proceeded t> >o explain how stupid it is.
> It depends upon what app is active. Finder seems to have the grayest menus.

OMG, so Big Sewer also has all the shortcuts grayed out menus? I guess Apple is embarrassed to walk that back. F___ers. Why anyone would spend even a microsecond on such a stupid thing -- and make things worse, to boot! -- is beyond me.

>
> >Someone else said it might be as old as Big Sur. So Sir, are ALL the shortc=
> >uts -- and I do mean including the active ones where the English part isn't=
> > grayed out -- grayed out? Or was that introduced in Catalina or Monterey, > >if you happen to know?
> FYI, it must have been an evil spirit I aroused this morning when I replied
> to your post. The MacBook Air kernel paniced and it would not reboot. I put
> it in to target disk mode and my youngest copied my VAXman folder over onto
> his Mac. I then had to reinstall Big Sewer. I was hoping it would fix a bug
> I've reported to Apple that they say that they can not reproduce. Something
> is running and eating disk space. The activity monitor shows nothing. If I
> don't reboot daily to free up 10s of gigs, I'm in big trouble quickly. It
> appears to be something writing temp files but I can't find it. Rebooting
> it causes all of the disk (SSD) consumed to be freed.

Yikes! Sorry to hear about that. Have you tried the "Apple Support Communities"? Sometimes they are of help. I had a problem after my hard drive die that the Mac wouldn't mount the swapfile. I posted there, but to no avail. After some serious googling, I finally found the remedy.
> >BTW, Terminal has worked fine for me, once they finally allowed me to map C=
> >lear, =3D, /, and * to the PFs. Actually, there is one problem: EDT (and I =
> >would guess other editors -- I should try them!) full screen mode wipes out=
> > part of the history buffer! Other than that, I've customized the font and > >am pretty happy with it. It's free and it's already there.
> >
> >BTW, "Big Sewer" is definitely funnier than "WEENdoze."
> FWIW, Safari, after today's reinstall, will no longer permit me to allow or
> setup auto-play for some websites I access. I've re-re-installed Safari to
> no avail. I've been working on a website and now I need to fire up Firefux
> to hear any sounds. SMH.

I never liked Safari. Too mouse-insistent, or keyboard-unfriendly. With FF, the old IE, and maybe some other browsers you can do Cmd-F, type in the text of the link, hit Return, then the link with that name would be focused, and you can just press Esc and Return to "click" the link! Well, in some cases it doesn't work, like when the link is a graphic. A workaround that sometimes works is to Find and focus on something near to it. Then tabbing might get you there. Sometimes you have to tab and shift-tab back to get it to work. And there was something slightly better about it on FF than on IE, but I can't remember what. It also worked on Chrome, but the fine users in the Final Cut group in the "support communities" warned me that Chrome is really bad for video and even other things on Macs. See https://chromeisbad.com/ for details, so I can't check if is still works. Chrome doesn't offer case-sensitive searching anyway. I tried it mostly because it worked better than FF on YouTube at the time (ca. 2000, +\- a few years).
>
> Lately, it seems OSX has more quirks than it has works. ;)

On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 19:43:03 -0500, "John H. Reinhardt"
<johnhreinhardt@thereinhardts.org> wrote:

>On 9/20/2022 2:28 PM, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>
>> Am I the only one in the newsgroup that uses a Mac to access an OpenVMS box?
>>
>
>I'm on a Mac and have used it for years and years. But I have a MacPro 2009 and I'm stuck at Mojave. I don't use Apple's Terminal. I use Em-Tec's ZOC. It cost me $80 back when and another $29 to upgrade about 6 years later but worth it. I also use a Matias Tactile Pro 4 (and Quiet Pro) Mac keyboard that has the proper # of keys on it's keypad. I've also used iTerm and iTerm2 over the years but I prefer ZOC. Works just dandy with all my VMS needs from DEC VAX/VMS 5.5 to VSI OpenVMS V8.4-2L1
>
>https://www.emtec.com/zoc/index.html
>http://matias.ca/tactilepro4/
>http://matias.ca/tactilepro4/viewer/?p=2

I second the ZOC recommendation. Just love the UI. Was worth every
penny, and the few times I ran into any issues with VMS the author was
quick to find a solution and issue a patch.

Mark

On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 7:47:21 PM UTC-4, s....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 19:43:03 -0500, "John H. Reinhardt"
> <johnhre...@thereinhardts.org> wrote:
>
> >On 9/20/2022 2:28 PM, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Am I the only one in the newsgroup that uses a Mac to access an OpenVMS box?
> >>
> >
> >I'm on a Mac and have used it for years and years. But I have a MacPro 2009 and I'm stuck at Mojave. I don't use Apple's Terminal. I use Em-Tec's ZOC. It cost me $80 back when and another $29 to upgrade about 6 years later but worth it. I also use a Matias Tactile Pro 4 (and Quiet Pro) Mac keyboard that has the proper # of keys on it's keypad. I've also used iTerm and iTerm2 over the years but I prefer ZOC. Works just dandy with all my VMS needs from DEC VAX/VMS 5.5 to VSI OpenVMS V8.4-2L1
> >
> >https://www.emtec.com/zoc/index.html
> >http://matias.ca/tactilepro4/
> >http://matias.ca/tactilepro4/viewer/?p=2
> I second the ZOC recommendation. Just love the UI. Was worth every
> penny, and the few times I ran into any issues with VMS the author was
> quick to find a solution and issue a patch.
>
> Mark

I'll check it out and keep it in mind. Thanks. But my needs are simple.

On 2022-09-21 11:54, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 4:51:41 AM UTC-4, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>> On 2022-09-20 21:57, Steven Schweda wrote:
>>>> Am I the only one in the newsgroup that uses a Mac to access an
>>>> OpenVMS box?
>>>
>>> I use XQuartz > Terminal (xterm). With a little xmodmap action, it
>>> does what I need. I haven't noticed any new (xterm) trouble with
>>> Monterey (12.5.1, on a Pro (Late 2013)) compared with Mojave (10.14.6 on
>>> a Pro (Mid 2010)).
>> I use XQuartz as well, and you don't need any xmodmap action at all.
>> xterm works correctly directly out of the box, assuming you just tell
>> xterm that you want it to behave like a vt terminal, and so on.
>> Can be done on the command line, or through x resources.
>>
>> For the OP, I would also suggest switching to xterm. It is a much better
>> terminal emulation than the terminal app, it's free, and contains no
>> funny stuff at all.
>
> Why? It wasn't the problem, and all is well now.
> Better how?
> Terminal contains no funny stuff I'm aware of.

To each his own. As always.
But I can tell that terminal behaves wrong when receiving a DECCOLM
escape sequence. If you are at 80 columns, and the escape sequence also
requests 80 columns, terminal do nothing, which is incorrect. The screen
should be cleared. And I have at least some applications under RSX that
knows and expects this behavior, so the screen gets really messed up
when using terminal.

Actually, this is the first test I do with any terminal program, and a
majority of them fail this one.

I haven't really tried to see if there are other problems/errors in the
emulation. That one already disqualifies it for my use.

Johnny

On 2022-09-21 15:30, Craig A. Berry wrote:
>
> On 9/21/22 3:51 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>> On 2022-09-20 21:57, Steven Schweda wrote:
>>>> Am I the only one in the newsgroup that uses a Mac to access an
>>>> OpenVMS box?
>>>
>>>     I use XQuartz > Terminal (xterm).  With a little xmodmap action, it
>>> does what I need.  I haven't noticed any new (xterm) trouble with
>>> Monterey (12.5.1, on a Pro (Late 2013)) compared with Mojave (10.14.6 on
>>> a Pro (Mid 2010)).
>>
>> I use XQuartz as well, and you don't need any xmodmap action at all.
>> xterm works correctly directly out of the box, assuming you just tell
>> xterm that you want it to behave like a vt terminal, and so on.
>> Can be done on the command line, or through x resources.
>
> I just tried it with XQuartz 2.8.2.  VMS recognizes it as VT400_Series
> with "VMS Style Input," but backspace is mapped to control-H, not
> backspace and the most basic keypad editing in TPU throws all kinds of
> errors such as error in escape sequence, unrecognized escape sequence,
> unmapped keys, etc.  So yes, a lot of key mapping would be necessary,
> plus some way to set the size bigger than 24 x 80 and find a readable
> font. No doubt that's all possible with enough fiddling.

There is an option, even available in the control-leftclick menu, to
tell xterm to send DEL when you want to delete characters. And FYI,
control-H is actually the backspace character. But yes, getting
backspace when you press that <X] key is really annoying. Lucky it's so
easy to fix.

Along the same lines, you then also want to select the "VT200 keyboard"
option. In the same menu, as well as settable by command options.

No keymapping scripts or anything funny needed. Set the size of the
terminal by just dragging it out. Select font by control-rightclick.

Johnny

On 2022-09-21 17:24, Craig A. Berry wrote:
> On 9/21/22 9:42 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 9/21/22 09:30, Craig A. Berry wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I just tried it with XQuartz 2.8.2.  VMS recognizes it as VT400_Series
>>> with "VMS Style Input," but backspace is mapped to control-H, not
>>> backspace
>>
>> Ummm...  BACKSPACE is control-H.  At least as defined by ASCII.
>> The BACKSPACE key in most of the terminals I have used sends DELETE
>> but also most terminal programs I have used have the built in option
>> to map it either way.
>
> Yes, it is a setting in the terminal or emulator, usually the default
> setting, but not on xterm, which purportedly needs no configuration.  I
> maintain that it does need configuration.

I was objecting to people using xmodmap or various scripts to make xterm
send the correct sequences. xterm can do it all without anything that
fancy. Either use xresources, or use the command line (or even the
built-in menus) to get it right. If you call that configuration or not,
I don't know.

My xresources file looks like this:

===
*.vt100.decTerminalID: 220
*.vt100.c132: true
*.vt100.saveLines: 1000
*.ptyInitialErase: true
*.backarrowKeyIsErase: true
*.backarrowKey: false
*.sunKeyboard: true
*.rightScrollBar: true

xterm.vt100.activeIcon: false
xterm.vt100.multiScroll: true

vms.utmpInhibit: true
vms.title: VMS terminal
vms.vt100.loginShell: false
vms.vt100.scrollBar: true
===

And then I start xterm with:

xterm +sf +sp -aw -ut -132 -ti vt220 -sb -sl 5000 -name vms $* &

Several of those switches are definitely just duplicating the resources
anyway, so I'm just silly, but I haven't bothered really cleaning it up.

Johnny

On 22/09/2022 11:10, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2022-09-21 11:54, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 4:51:41 AM UTC-4, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>> On 2022-09-20 21:57, Steven Schweda wrote:
>>>>> Am I the only one in the newsgroup that uses a Mac to access an
>>>>> OpenVMS box?
>>>>
>>>> I use XQuartz > Terminal (xterm). With a little xmodmap action, it
>>>> does what I need. I haven't noticed any new (xterm) trouble with
>>>> Monterey (12.5.1, on a Pro (Late 2013)) compared with Mojave (10.14.6 on
>>>> a Pro (Mid 2010)).
>>> I use XQuartz as well, and you don't need any xmodmap action at all.
>>> xterm works correctly directly out of the box, assuming you just tell
>>> xterm that you want it to behave like a vt terminal, and so on.
>>> Can be done on the command line, or through x resources.
>>>
>>> For the OP, I would also suggest switching to xterm. It is a much better
>>> terminal emulation than the terminal app, it's free, and contains no
>>> funny stuff at all.
>>
>> Why? It wasn't the problem, and all is well now.
>> Better how?
>> Terminal contains no funny stuff I'm aware of.
>
> To each his own. As always.
> But I can tell that terminal behaves wrong when receiving a DECCOLM escape sequence. If you are at 80 columns, and the
> escape sequence also requests 80 columns, terminal do nothing, which is incorrect. The screen should be cleared. And I
> have at least some applications under RSX that knows and expects this behavior, so the screen gets really messed up when
> using terminal.
>
> Actually, this is the first test I do with any terminal program, and a majority of them fail this one.
>
> I haven't really tried to see if there are other problems/errors in the emulation. That one already disqualifies it for
> my use.
>
>   Johnny
OTOH:

see https://vt100.net/docs/vt510-rm/DECCOLM.html et.al.
</quote>
Note

It is recommended that new applications use DECSCPP rather than DECCOLM. DECSCPP does not clear page memory or reset the
scrolling regions, as does DECCOLM. DECCOLM is provided mainly for compatibility with previous products.

</quote>

--
No Micro$oft products were used in the URLs above, or in preparing this message.
Recommended reading: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#befor

On 2022-09-21, Craig A. Berry <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> wrote:
> On 9/21/22 9:42 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 9/21/22 09:30, Craig A. Berry wrote:
>>>
>>> I just tried it with XQuartz 2.8.2.  VMS recognizes it as VT400_Series
>>> with "VMS Style Input," but backspace is mapped to control-H, not
>>> backspace
>>
>> Ummm...  BACKSPACE is control-H.  At least as defined by ASCII.
>> The BACKSPACE key in most of the terminals I have used sends DELETE
>> but also most terminal programs I have used have the built in option
>> to map it either way.
>
> Yes, it is a setting in the terminal or emulator, usually the default
> setting, but not on xterm, which purportedly needs no configuration. I
> maintain that it does need configuration.
>

The following may help:

https://www.hypexr.org/linux_ruboff.php

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2022-09-21, gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 6:31:17 AM UTC-7, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> (snip)
>> Is there some secret setting I'm missing? Or do I need a 3rd-party app? And if so, can anyone here recommend one? Thanks!
>
> I often use terminal to ssh into Linux boxes.
>
> It seems that $term is xterm-256color.
> It is also that on OS X itself.
>
> I haven't tried it from OS X to VMS recently, so I am not sure about that one.
>
> Does VMS know about xterm-256color?

I doubt it. :-)

Try setting TERM to vt220 and see if that makes a difference.

BTW, it would be nice if VMS did support colour. The z/OS style command
output would make the VMS command output much more readable instead of
the monochrome output you get with VMS.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On Thu, 2022-09-22 at 12:41 +0000, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-09-21, gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 6:31:17 AM UTC-7,
> > alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > Does VMS know about xterm-256color?
>
> I doubt it. :-)
>
> Try setting TERM to vt220 and see if that makes a difference.
>
> BTW, it would be nice if VMS did support colour. The z/OS style
> command output would make the VMS command output much more readable
> instead of the monochrome output you get with VMS.

VT100 supports ANSI color codes. In theory you should be able to do
this in VMS provided the terminal can parse these color codes.
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

On 2022-09-22 11:29, Henry Crun wrote:
> On 22/09/2022 11:10, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>> On 2022-09-21 11:54, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 4:51:41 AM UTC-4, Johnny
>>> Billquist wrote:
>>>> On 2022-09-20 21:57, Steven Schweda wrote:
>>>>>> Am I the only one in the newsgroup that uses a Mac to access an
>>>>>> OpenVMS box?
>>>>>
>>>>> I use XQuartz > Terminal (xterm). With a little xmodmap action, it
>>>>> does what I need. I haven't noticed any new (xterm) trouble with
>>>>> Monterey (12.5.1, on a Pro (Late 2013)) compared with Mojave
>>>>> (10.14.6 on
>>>>> a Pro (Mid 2010)).
>>>> I use XQuartz as well, and you don't need any xmodmap action at all.
>>>> xterm works correctly directly out of the box, assuming you just tell
>>>> xterm that you want it to behave like a vt terminal, and so on.
>>>> Can be done on the command line, or through x resources.
>>>>
>>>> For the OP, I would also suggest switching to xterm. It is a much
>>>> better
>>>> terminal emulation than the terminal app, it's free, and contains no
>>>> funny stuff at all.
>>>
>>> Why? It wasn't the problem, and all is well now.
>>> Better how?
>>> Terminal contains no funny stuff I'm aware of.
>>
>> To each his own. As always.
>> But I can tell that terminal behaves wrong when receiving a DECCOLM
>> escape sequence. If you are at 80 columns, and the escape sequence
>> also requests 80 columns, terminal do nothing, which is incorrect. The
>> screen should be cleared. And I have at least some applications under
>> RSX that knows and expects this behavior, so the screen gets really
>> messed up when using terminal.
>>
>> Actually, this is the first test I do with any terminal program, and a
>> majority of them fail this one.
>>
>> I haven't really tried to see if there are other problems/errors in
>> the emulation. That one already disqualifies it for my use.
>>
>>    Johnny
> OTOH:
>
> see https://vt100.net/docs/vt510-rm/DECCOLM.html et.al.
> </quote>
> Note
>
> It is recommended that new applications use DECSCPP rather than DECCOLM.
> DECSCPP does not clear page memory or reset the scrolling regions, as
> does DECCOLM. DECCOLM is provided mainly for compatibility with previous
> products.
>
> </quote>

Sure. But that hardly makes me any happier when I have an application
that sends DECCOLM and my screen gets all messed up because the terminal
application don't implement DECCOLM correctly.

Johnny

On 2022-09-22 15:14, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
> On Thu, 2022-09-22 at 12:41 +0000, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2022-09-21, gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 6:31:17 AM UTC-7,
>>> alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> Does VMS know about xterm-256color?
>>
>> I doubt it. :-)
>>
>> Try setting TERM to vt220 and see if that makes a difference.
>>
>> BTW, it would be nice if VMS did support colour. The z/OS style
>> command output would make the VMS command output much more readable
>> instead of the monochrome output you get with VMS.
>
> VT100 supports ANSI color codes. In theory you should be able to do
> this in VMS provided the terminal can parse these color codes.

Uh? A VT100 don't support ANSI color codes. A VT100 is very monochrome.
But technically, any application that want to play with color can always
send the escape sequences required to make them happen. VMS isn't really
involved here.

xterm do support colors, as do the VT525, using ANSI color codes.

Johnny

On Thu, 2022-09-22 at 16:36 +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> > VT100 supports ANSI color codes. In theory you should be able to do
> > this in VMS provided the terminal can parse these color codes.
>
> Uh? A VT100 don't support ANSI color codes. A VT100 is very
> monochrome. But technically, any application that want to play with
> color can always send the escape sequences required to make them
> happen. VMS isn't really involved here.
>
> xterm do support colors, as do the VT525, using ANSI color codes.

The VT100 terminal does not support colours, that is true. I got my
information from this site:

https://wiki.bash-hackers.org/scripting/terminalcodes

It says these are ANSI/VT100 terminal codes.
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

On 9/22/22 3:21 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2022-09-21 17:24, Craig A. Berry wrote:
>> On 9/21/22 9:42 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> On 9/21/22 09:30, Craig A. Berry wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I just tried it with XQuartz 2.8.2.  VMS recognizes it as VT400_Series
>>>> with "VMS Style Input," but backspace is mapped to control-H, not
>>>> backspace
>>>
>>> Ummm...  BACKSPACE is control-H.  At least as defined by ASCII.
>>> The BACKSPACE key in most of the terminals I have used sends DELETE
>>> but also most terminal programs I have used have the built in option
>>> to map it either way.
>>
>> Yes, it is a setting in the terminal or emulator, usually the default
>> setting, but not on xterm, which purportedly needs no configuration.  I
>> maintain that it does need configuration.
>
> I was objecting to people using xmodmap or various scripts to make xterm
> send the correct sequences. xterm can do it all without anything that
> fancy. Either use xresources, or use the command line (or even the
> built-in menus) to get it right. If you call that configuration or not,
> I don't know.
>
> My xresources file looks like this:
>
> ===
> *.vt100.decTerminalID: 220
> *.vt100.c132: true
> *.vt100.saveLines: 1000
> *.ptyInitialErase: true
> *.backarrowKeyIsErase: true
> *.backarrowKey: false
> *.sunKeyboard: true
> *.rightScrollBar: true
>
> xterm.vt100.activeIcon: false
> xterm.vt100.multiScroll: true
>
> vms.utmpInhibit: true
> vms.title: VMS terminal
> vms.vt100.loginShell: false
> vms.vt100.scrollBar: true
> ===
>
> And then I start xterm with:
>
> xterm +sf +sp -aw -ut -132 -ti vt220 -sb -sl 5000 -name vms $* &
>
> Several of those switches are definitely just duplicating the resources
> anyway, so I'm just silly, but I haven't bothered really cleaning it up.

OK, I call that a lot of configuration. Thanks to your head start, I
may try it some time for geek points but it all looks like a lot of work
to get a terminal that looks pretty awful compared to iTerm2.

On 2022-09-22, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
>
> Uh? A VT100 don't support ANSI color codes. A VT100 is very monochrome.
> But technically, any application that want to play with color can always
> send the escape sequences required to make them happen. VMS isn't really
> involved here.
>

Actually, VMS is directly involved here as it's the VMS commands I wouldn't
mind seeing colour support added to in order to highlight values and
information just as z/OS does.

Here's an example of how colour can be used to highlight the display
of information in a text mode application:

https://screenshots.debian.net/package/slrn

That's a _lot_ better than displaying everything in a single monochrome
colour.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

In article <tgi6aq$28pgi$1@dont-email.me>,
clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) wrote:

> https://screenshots.debian.net/package/slrn
>
> That's a _lot_ better than displaying everything in a single
> monochrome colour.

That depends on the person using it. Provide such colour schemes, OK, but
there needs to be a way of turning them off.

Right off.

Back to monochrome.

I have a complicated set of vision defects, and need a display to be as
simple as possible. Colour is /confusing/ for me.

John

On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 4:11:02 AM UTC-4, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2022-09-21 11:54, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 4:51:41 AM UTC-4, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> >> On 2022-09-20 21:57, Steven Schweda wrote:
> >>>> Am I the only one in the newsgroup that uses a Mac to access an
> >>>> OpenVMS box?
> >>>
> >>> I use XQuartz > Terminal (xterm). With a little xmodmap action, it
> >>> does what I need. I haven't noticed any new (xterm) trouble with
> >>> Monterey (12.5.1, on a Pro (Late 2013)) compared with Mojave (10.14.6 on
> >>> a Pro (Mid 2010)).
> >> I use XQuartz as well, and you don't need any xmodmap action at all.
> >> xterm works correctly directly out of the box, assuming you just tell
> >> xterm that you want it to behave like a vt terminal, and so on.
> >> Can be done on the command line, or through x resources.
> >>
> >> For the OP, I would also suggest switching to xterm. It is a much better
> >> terminal emulation than the terminal app, it's free, and contains no
> >> funny stuff at all.
> >
> > Why? It wasn't the problem, and all is well now.
> > Better how?
> > Terminal contains no funny stuff I'm aware of.
> To each his own. As always.
> But I can tell that terminal behaves wrong when receiving a DECCOLM
> escape sequence. If you are at 80 columns, and the escape sequence also
> requests 80 columns, terminal do nothing, which is incorrect. The screen
> should be cleared. And I have at least some applications under RSX that
> knows and expects this behavior, so the screen gets really messed up
> when using terminal.
>
> Actually, this is the first test I do with any terminal program, and a
> majority of them fail this one.
>
> I haven't really tried to see if there are other problems/errors in the
> emulation. That one already disqualifies it for my use.
>
> Johnny

Thanks for your reply.

I originally posted here because the numbers and decimal point keys on the numeric keypad weren't working right, meaning I'd be severely inconvenienced, to say the least, using EDT. Well, it turned out to be something stupid with the Mouse Keys bit and possibly other Accessibility settings. But it's fixed now.

NTL, I got several recommendations on getting something better than macOS Terminal. But my needs are simple. I work on DCL command procedures. That's pretty much it! I do hope to publish a couple of them on the freeware site soon.

Now, I don't even know what DECCOLM is, and have heard the term RSX, but don't really know what it is. I don't need a race car to cross the street.

The only problem I have with Terminal is that using EDT in full-screen mode wipes out part of the history buffer (not the commands, but screen output).. So I have one window dedicated just for editing sessions. I assume this is actually an EDT problem, and therefore won't be cured by switching to any other emulator.

BTW, I was considering using vim!

Thanks for your post.