Android's core modules are a huge portion of the Android operating system.

We all know these two dozen Android core modules are updated _independently_
of the carrier, manufacturer, and operating system - but for how long?

I don't know.
Do you?

The fact is Android updates are nuanced, where this thread asks only this:
*How long does GOOGLE update Android core modules in project mainline?*

We know that each module, by design, is donated to the AOSP, so we know
they're already essentially updated forever, but the AOSP isn't Google.

We also know that there are _different_ components of Android, each of which
has a _different_ update schedule (and often a different update mechanism).

Offhand, I can name instantly at least 8 different Android update schedules.
1. User apps (such as your personal APK archive) are often updated forever
2. Key apps (such as the default web browser) are often updated forever
4. Firmware (such as the Qualcomm modem firmware) are updated by Qualcomm
5. Security updates (these are likely team efforts of google, mfr & carrier)
6. Android updates (likely also a team effort of google, mfr & carrier)
7. Core modules (such as the two dozen core modules) are updated by Google
8. Those core modules are always donated to the AOSP for them to maintain.
(any others?)

Given that description above, _this_ thread is only about number 7 above.
*Now you can learn what's new in each Google Play system update for Android*
<https://9to5google.com/2022/01/10/whats-new-android-google-play-system-updates/>
"One of Google's biggest efforts for Android in recent years is to make
updating parts of the operating system easier, cutting out the middlemen
wherever possible to deliver updates directly to customers.
Originally referred to as Project Mainline, the system is now called
"Google Play system updates" or sometimes "Google System updates."

These updates are downloaded and installed automatically by the
Play Store, with the installation finalizing whenever you decide to
reboot your phone. Generally speaking, the system is designed to
go unnoticed, a goal that Google has achieved with relative success.

Google has begun peeling back the curtain on these new Android updates,
with a new support page that spells out what's new in patches related
to Google Play. This includes the formal Google System updates,
in addition to changes to the Play Store and Play Services."
<https://support.google.com/product-documentation/answer/11412553>

Notice the core modules are a huge portion of the Android operating system.

Since Usenet is a team sport, if someone can figure out how long Google
updates asynchronously the 25 core modules in project mainline, let us know.

Please note Android updates are nuanced in that there is no one length of
time for any given type of update so this thread is limited only to the core
modules, by definition, defined in Google's project mainline & treble.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?q=project+mainline+treble+core+modules>

Andy Burnelli wrote:

> Given that description above,_this_ thread is only about number 7 above.
> *Now you can learn what's new in each Google Play system update for Android*
> <https://9to5google.com/2022/01/10/whats-new-android-google-play-system-updates/>
> "One of Google's biggest efforts for Android in recent years is to make
> updating parts of the operating system easier, cutting out the middlemen
> wherever possible to deliver updates directly to customers.
> Originally referred to as Project Mainline, the system is now called
> "Google Play system updates" or sometimes "Google System updates."

Still not convinced this applies to all (specifically pixels) forever e.g.

My Android security update is 5th Oct 2021, fair enough P3 is too old to receive
guaranteed updates, but as mentioned earlier it appears that google have agreed
to give it two "bonus" updates this year.

But my Play system update is from 1 Sep 2021.

Andy Burns wrote:

> Still not convinced this applies to all (specifically pixels) forever e.g.
>
> My Android security update is 5th Oct 2021, fair enough P3 is too old to receive
> guaranteed updates, but as mentioned earlier it appears that google have agreed
> to give it two "bonus" updates this year.
>
> But my Play system update is from 1 Sep 2021.

When I pressed on the "play system" line, it *did* say it needed a reboot to
install, so I allowed it and it was a type of upgrade different from any I've
seen on a nexus or pixel before. I guess this is one of the APEX rather than
APK upgrades?

Anyway it now says 1st Dec 2021

Andy Burns wrote:

> When I pressed on the "play system" line, it *did* say it needed a reboot to
> install, so I allowed it and it was a type of upgrade different from any I've
> seen on a nexus or pixel before.  I guess this is one of the APEX rather than
> APK upgrades?

We have discussed these "pony express" files before, my theory is that while the
pixel devices are within normal support lifetime, they don't use APEX since they
have no need to, they receive monthly OTA updates straight from the horse's
mouth, which can update or upgrade anything within the ROM that google choose.

But, now that the pixel 3 is off of support, the APEX mechanism kicks in, it
can't do full *upgrades* like an OTA can, but it can *update* more components
than a straight APK can.

<https://source.android.com/devices/tech/ota/apex>

On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 18:56:08 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

> My Android security update is 5th Oct 2021
> But my Play system update is from 1 Sep 2021

Hi Andy,

Usenet is a team sport.

We all work together as a team to advance the ball toward the goal line.
(keeping in mind there are hecklers on the sidelines who don't care)

I don't have a pixel (I have a Samsung Galaxy A32-5G and a Moto G7) but even
so, I'd make a huge distinction between the two things you mentioned above.
1. Security updates
2. "Google Play System Updates" (aka "Google System Updates" or "Mainline")

Are they the same?

I don't think so.
Do you?

I think they're _completely_ different beasts, aren't they?
If they're the same, then let me know as I think they're different things.

Together, and with others on the Usenet team, we can figure this out.
And we'll all know more as a result.

On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 19:03:41 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

> When I pressed on the "play system" line, it *did* say it needed a reboot to
> install, so I allowed it and it was a type of upgrade different from any I've
> seen on a nexus or pixel before. I guess this is one of the APEX rather than
> APK upgrades?
>
> Anyway it now says 1st Dec 2021

Andy,
We can learn from each other, particularly about APEX versus APK upgrades.
Usenet is a team sport, where, together, we learn more than being alone.

Like it or not, Android (and Windows/Linux) updates are not monolithic.
They're nuanced.

Very few people seem to comprehend the full extent of these update nuances.
(Certainly the iKooks don't comprehend how nuanced the Android updates are.)

Specifically, unless someone shows otherwise, I think these are different:
1. Periodic security updates
2. Asynchronous "Google Play System Updates" (previously Project Mainline)

For #2 above (aka "Google System Updates"), it seems the _container_ file of
the two dozen core modules can be either APK or APEX format as shown here.
*Modular System Components*
<https://source.android.com/devices/architecture/modular-system>
"Android 10 or higher converts selected system components into modules,
some of which use the APEX container format (introduced in Android 10)
and some of which use the APK format. The modular architecture enables
system components to be updated with critical bug fixes and
other improvements as needed, without affecting lower-level
vendor implementations or higher-level apps and services."

Given that APEX is just a different container format, I'm not sure yet why
Andy says it matters, but I first must concede that I know next to nothing
about Pixels and even less about the APEX container format.

So, maybe it matters if the container is APEX or APK.

Andy - can you explain why it matters what the update's container format is?
--
My ignorance on APEX vs APK is curable (it's stupidiy that can't be cured).

On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 19:24:31 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

> We have discussed these "pony express" files before

For those new to APEX, Andy is referring to their name:
"Android Pony Express" (aka, APEX)

"This format facilitates the updates of system components that don't fit
into the standard Android application model. Some example components are
native services and libraries, hardware abstraction layers (HALs),
runtime (ART), and class libraries."
<https://source.android.com/devices/tech/ota/apex>

> my theory is that while the
> pixel devices are within normal support lifetime, they don't use APEX since they
> have no need to, they receive monthly OTA updates straight from the horse's
> mouth, which can update or upgrade anything within the ROM that google choose.

Hi Andy,
I know next to nothing about APEX versus APK, so I'm just learning what you
know already, so bear with me as we can solve the questions as a team.

Some core modules are in APK containers, others are in APEX containers, and
still others, as I recall, are supplied in both APEX & in APK containers.

Why it matters, I guess, is this statement from your reference below:
<https://source.android.com/devices/tech/ota/apex>
"APK-based modules can't be used early in the boot sequence."

Apparently the key difference is that packages in APEX containers can be
used _earlier_ in the boot sequence than APK containers, is that right?

> But, now that the pixel 3 is off of support, the APEX mechanism kicks in, it
> can't do full *upgrades* like an OTA can, but it can *update* more components
> than a straight APK can.

Andy,

In addition to the _type_ of container (APEX versus APK) for the two dozen
core modules, you bring up another good point in that the core module
_delivery_ isn't always from Google.

The two dozen core modules can come from one of _two_ places:
1. Google, or
2. Android Partner (see below)

All of this is new as of Android 10, so we can learn from each other given
you're looking far more deeply at _how_ updates occur than I have to date.

With respect to _how_ Google Play System Updates can occur, this reference
says that the _delivery_ can also be nuanced in that it isn't only Google
doing it. <https://source.android.com/devices/architecture/modular-system>
"Updated modular system components can be packaged together
and pushed to end-user devices, *either by Google* (using the
Google Play Store infrastructure) *or by the Android partner*
(using a partner-provided OTA mechanism)."

I'm not quite sure "who" the Android Partner is in your Pixel situation.
Is that Android Partner Samsung in my case though (or T-Mobile)?

Andy Burnelli wrote:

> Andy - can you explain why it matters what the update's container format is?

from what I remember reading previously, an apex update can "prepare the ground"
ready to take effect early during the next reboot, and that's pretty much what I
saw after accepting the December Play update, during the boot animation a
progress% counter was displayed before it actually started up ...

I know more about Pixels than Samsungs, but the normal way an OTA is handled is
that the phone has *two* system partitions, A and B if you like, it can be
running on A, while preparing an updated version into B in the background, then
when it's prepared, it's able to do the switcheroo next time it boots, giving a
"not quite instant" reboot into the other system partition.

So this method was nowhere near as fast as the pixel OTA A/B method, but given
that OTAs are just about finished for pixel3 now, it's better than nothing.

On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 21:11:09 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

> So this method was nowhere near as fast as the pixel OTA A/B method, but given
> that OTAs are just about finished for pixel3 now, it's better than nothing.

Thanks for hazarding an answer as to why it matters if it's APEX or APK,
where I don't know the pixel but I do know only these very basic things:
a. APEX or APK is "just" a different container format
b. However, APEX can be applied _earlier_ in the boot sequence
c. Yet, AFAICT, _both_ can be applied _during_ the boot sequence

Why does it matter if one type of the two dozen core components can be
applied "earlier" in the boot sequence if both types can be applied "during"
the sequence?

I don't know.
Do you?

I suspect the actual difference will be in the future, but I'm just guessing
that some things _need_ to be applied earlier in the boot sequence.

I don't know if that is the case, but if that's the case, then if they can
_only_ be applied earlier, then _that_ would be an advantage of APEX over
APK.

Otherwise, if _both_ can be applied in the boot sequence, I don't know what
the advantage is (yet) of APEX being able to be applied _earlier_ than APK.

A second confusion I have is that you seem to have a feeling of why it
matters on your pixel whether the Android core module is updated over Google
Play System Update (which is done by Google) or if the core module is
updated OTA (which is done by the "Android Partner").

If I assume the "Android Partner" is Samsung, then it might matter in my
case, but if we assume Google is their own Android Partner, why does it
matter to you?

In summary, I am confused about two aspects that you don't seem to be
confused about in terms of the mechanics of the core module update
mechanism.

1. You seem to believe it matters if it's APEX or APK (while the only
difference I can see is APEX happens earlier than APK but both happen).

2. You seem to care _who_ does the core module update (whether that's
Google over GPS or the so-called Android Partner over OTA) whereas
I don't see how the "who" matters (for me, it would be, I think,
either Google over GPS or Samsung over OTA).

Any clarifications from anyone else so we can make headway on understanding?

On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 18:56:08 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

> But my Play system update is from 1 Sep 2021.

Hi Andy,

I'm trying to learn from what you wrote but I don't know how to check what
version I'm running so I would like to ask you _how_ you got that date?

Please see the composite screenshots I made for you below for this question.
<https://i.postimg.cc/g0jQBKrs/updateallapps09.jpg>
<https://i.postimg.cc/qqVFqVwD/updateallapps10.jpg>
Which shows the following version numbers:
Google Play Services <com.google.android.gms>
Version 21.15.15.(150406-371058782), Date Updated Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:00AM
Google Play Store <com.android.vending>
Version 26.4.21-21 [0][PR]387147473, Date Updated Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:00AM

I'm still confused as to what you learned about your pixel with respect to
how it updates the two dozen core modules that I claim are updated OTA by
the "Android Partner" or over the net by Google (both named "Google Play
System Updates" aka "Google System Updates" aka "Project Mainline").

Bearing in mind of all people I'm likely one of the _least_ familiar with
pixels and with Google Play Services <com.google.android.gms> & Google Play
Store <com.android.vending> because I generally delete (to original) and
then if possible I disable all Google apps. Furthermore, even when Google
apps are not expressly backdated & disabled, I don't even have a Google
Account on my phone set up for them to use, were they to need an account.

QUESTION: (Since the Google Play Store app won't run...)
How would I _check_ what my "Play System Update" version is at right now?

Or, more to the point that you can answer:
How did _you_ check what your "Play System Update" version was when you did?

Andy Burnelli wrote:

> I'm trying to learn from what you wrote but I don't know how to check what
> version I'm running so I would like to ask you_how_ you got that date?

The date of the "play system" never used to be be show, but since the most
recent update, it now appears on the settings/about phone/android version screen

<https://9to5google.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2022/01/google-play-system-updates-1.png>

it wasn't obvious that pressing the "play system" panel on that screen would
offer to reboot to install already downloaded updates, or check for available
updates.

On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 10:14:37 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

> The date of the "play system" never used to be be show, but since the most
> recent update, it now appears on the settings/about phone/android version screen
>
> <https://9to5google.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2022/01/google-play-system-updates-1.png>
>
> it wasn't obvious that pressing the "play system" panel on that screen would
> offer to reboot to install already downloaded updates, or check for available
> updates.

Ah. Thank you for kindly explaining _where_ to find that information as I
was reading (and re-reading) your prior post about APKs versus APEX updates
over the net versus OTA and I just couldn't understand fully what you were
telling us. (I apologize in advance if I didn't comprehend all you said.)

Please see this composite screenshot I just made for you proving what I have
<https://i.postimg.cc/4ymqRF7n/updateallapps11.jpg>
Notice there are a _dozen_ different sub components of Android listed there.

Checking on my Samsung Galaxy A32-5G which is on Android 11 at the moment:
Settings > About phone > Software information >
*Google Play system update* = June 1, 2021
*Android security patch level* = November 1, 2021

As for what you said about the "play system panel" offering a reboot, I
don't see that (but I'm in Android 11); when I tapped on each item, only the
very last item "did anything" (which was ask to go to a web browser).
One UI version
Android version
Google Play system update
Baseband version
Kernel version
Build number
SE for Android status
Knox version
Service provider software version
Carrier configuration version
Security software version
Android security patch level

Tapping on each item did nothing save for the last item which went to:
<https://source.android.com/security/bulletin>

Like you originally stated earlier in this thread, it's not obvious how to
figure out _when_ (or even _if_) Google is updating _my_ phone over the
"Google Play system update" mechanism (whether OTN or OTA); but I have to
admit my phone is _not_ set up in the typical way with respect to Google
services.

Can you tell if (and how) _your_ phone is updating the Android Core Modules?

You know a lot more than I do as I basically disable this stuff while yours
is more mainstream where I get the "idea" (but I'm not sure) that your pixel
_switched_ from over-the-net (let's call that OTN) Android Core Module
updates (via APK, perhaps?) to OTA Android Core Module updates (via APEX?).

Maybe it's just me, but that's confusing as all hell for me to try to
understand and then for me to extrapolate it to what _my_ phone is doing.

Can you tell whether (and how?) your two-dozen core modules are updating?

On 30 Jan 2022 at 10:14:37, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Andy Burnelli wrote:
>
>> I'm trying to learn from what you wrote but I don't know how to check what
>> version I'm running so I would like to ask you_how_ you got that date?
>
>
> The date of the "play system" never used to be be show, but since the most
> recent update, it now appears on the settings/about phone/android version screen
>
> <https://9to5google.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2022/01/google-play-system-updates-1.png>
>
> it wasn't obvious that pressing the "play system" panel on that screen would
> offer to reboot to install already downloaded updates, or check for available
> updates.

On my Pixel 3 running Android 12 the date of Google Play system update is
under Settings/Security.
Currently showing January 1, 2022

Andy Burnelli wrote:

> when I tapped on each item, only the
> very last item "did anything" (which was ask to go to a web browser).

Is your device likely to get android 12?

> Can you tell if (and how) _your_ phone is updating the Android Core Modules?

Up till recently, it was obvious that play services did occasional updates of
"something" in the background, because when that happened some apps (e.g.
youtube or play store) would get ungraciously killed for the duration.

I'd never had a play services update that needed a reboot until pressing that
panel when it said it had downloaded an update and was pending a reboot, but it
hadn't notified me. During the reboot I think it was the ART that was being
upgraded ... probably that has to get updated while no java/kotlin apps are
running, hence needing a reboot ... up until october the phone had monthly
reboots for OTA upgrades.

> You know a lot more than I do as I basically disable this stuff while yours
> is more mainstream where I get the "idea" (but I'm not sure) that your pixel
> _switched_ from over-the-net (let's call that OTN) Android Core Module
> updates (via APK, perhaps?) to OTA Android Core Module updates (via APEX?).

Yes, once google turned off the monthly security patches as it was 3 years old,
it seemed to start getting "component" updates via the play system mechanism.

> Maybe it's just me, but that's confusing as all hell for me to try to
> understand and then for me to extrapolate it to what _my_ phone is doing.
>
> Can you tell whether (and how?) your two-dozen core modules are updating?

can't see dates/versions for the individual modules, but as mentioned I think
ART (equivalent of JRE for a desktop) got updated in the last reboot, maybe
other stuff too, but I can't see the versions of those components

On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 07:54:24 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

> Is your device likely to get android 12?

I didn't choose my device (T-Mobile gave it to me for free) so let me look.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?q=when+update+android+12+samsung+galaxy+a32+5G>

That gave initial hits written in "Banglish" mostly, which claim the A32-5G
will get Android 12 later this year.

*Samsung Android 12 Galaxy A72, A52, A42, A32, A22, A12 and A02 Update*
<https://www.sammyfans.com/2022/01/29/samsung-android-12-galaxy-a72-a52-a42-a32-a22-a12-and-a02-one-ui-4-0-update/>

*Will Samsung Galaxy A52 5G or A32 5G Get Android 12 Update?*
<https://www.getdroidtips.com/samsung-galaxy-52-a32-5g-android-12/>

Searching for reliable articles this says it's already on the Europe A32-5G
<https://9to5google.com/2022/01/31/samsung-android-12-update-rollout/>

With the Samsung _official_ rollout of the A32-5G scheduled for May 2022.
*December 2021*
Samsung Galaxy S21 (Complete)
Samsung Galaxy S21+ (Complete)
Samsung Galaxy S21 Ultra (Complete)
Samsung Galaxy Z Fold 3 (Complete)
Samsung Galaxy Z Flip 3 (Complete)
*January 2022*
Samsung Galaxy Z Fold 2 (Started in December)
Samsung Galaxy Z Flip (Started in December)
Samsung Galaxy Z Flip 5G (Started in December)
Samsung Galaxy S20+/S20 Ultra/S20 FE (Started in December)
Samsung Galaxy Note 20/Ultra (Started in December)
Samsung Galaxy Note 10/10+/10+ 5G (Started in December)
Samsung Galaxy Fold (Started in December)
*February 2022*
Samsung Galaxy A52 5G (Started in January)
Samsung Galaxy S20 (Started in December)
Samsung Galaxy S10 5G (Started in December)
Samsung Galaxy S10 (Started in December)
Samsung Galaxy S10e (Started in December)
Samsung Galaxy S10+ (Started in December)
Samsung Galaxy S10 Lite (Started in January)
Samsung Galaxy Tab S7 (Started in December)
Samsung Galaxy Tab S7+ (Started in December)
Samsung Galaxy Tab S7+ 5G
*March 2022*
Samsung Galaxy Tab S7 FE
*April 2022*
Samsung Galaxy A51 5G
Samsung Galaxy A51
Samsung Galaxy A71 5G
Samsung Galaxy Tab S7 FE 5G
Samsung Galaxy Tab S6 Lite
*May 2022*
Samsung Galaxy Tab S6
Samsung Galaxy Tab Active 3
Samsung Galaxy Tab A7 (2020)
Samsung Galaxy A42 5G
Samsung Galaxy A32 5G <====== this is the phone I have
*June 2022*
Samsung Galaxy Tab A7 Lite
Samsung Galaxy XCover Pro
*July 2022*
Samsung Galaxy A21
Samsung Galaxy A12
*August 2022*
Samsung Galaxy A02s
Samsung Galaxy A01
Samsung Galaxy A11
>> Can you tell if (and how) _your_ phone is updating the Android Core Modules?
>
> Up till recently, it was obvious that play services did occasional updates of
> "something" in the background, because when that happened some apps (e.g.
> youtube or play store) would get ungraciously killed for the duration.

I think _this_ is the most important question to find the correct answer to.
*How do we know when/if Google Play System Updates are happening*?

Thank you for explaining that some apps "responded" to Google Play System
Upates (I think I'll call it that unless you have a better name for it).

As you likely know, I have most Google apps disabled, so I might not be
getting my two-dozen core modules updated (as it depends on whether Google
_needs_ a login, for example, which I don't have on my phone).

Maybe Google Play System Updates do not need a login though, as the Google
Play Store app can update apps it knows about _without_ having a login even
as it can't download any app I want that is on Google Play repository
without that login.

What's important though isn't me, per se, but for everyone the question is:
*How do we know when/if Google Play System Updates are happening*?
> I'd never had a play services update that needed a reboot until pressing that
> panel when it said it had downloaded an update and was pending a reboot, but it
> hadn't notified me. During the reboot I think it was the ART that was being
> upgraded ... probably that has to get updated while no java/kotlin apps are
> running, hence needing a reboot ... up until october the phone had monthly
> reboots for OTA upgrades.

Now I think I know _why_ you asked me about Android 12, because you're well
aware the runtime is _newly_ added to the two dozen Google Play System
Update core modules as of Android 12 only (as I recall).

Given Google designed the two dozen core modules to update almost invisibly,
it behooves us to understand how to tell if/when core modules are updated.

If we knew how to tell when/if the two dozen core modules are updated, it
would go a long way toward answering the question in the thread SUBJECT.
*How long does GOOGLE say they'll update the two dozen core modules*?

>> You know a lot more than I do as I basically disable this stuff while yours
>> is more mainstream where I get the "idea" (but I'm not sure) that your pixel
>> _switched_ from over-the-net (let's call that OTN) Android Core Module
>> updates (via APK, perhaps?) to OTA Android Core Module updates (via APEX?).
>
> Yes, once google turned off the monthly security patches as it was 3 years old,
> it seemed to start getting "component" updates via the play system mechanism.

If that's the case, it's ingenious, in that it's the best of all worlds.
a. When you're under support, you get OTA updates of the core modules
b. After that, you get OTN updates of the same two dozen core modules

That fits with the knowledge that the core modules _can_ be updated either
by Google or by the "Android Partner" and they can be updated OTN or OTA.

The key question to answer is _how_ do we know when/if an update happened?
>> Maybe it's just me, but that's confusing as all hell for me to try to
>> understand and then for me to extrapolate it to what _my_ phone is doing.
>>
>> Can you tell whether (and how?) your two-dozen core modules are updating?
>
> can't see dates/versions for the individual modules, but as mentioned I think
> ART (equivalent of JRE for a desktop) got updated in the last reboot, maybe
> other stuff too, but I can't see the versions of those components

Well, we both know that they added the runtime core module to the Google
Play System Updates as of Android 12, so, in your case, since I think you're
on Android 12 (right?) then if ART is updated, then that's one way to tell.

In summary, what would benefit all of us is a way to figure out in Android
10 and above if and when the Google Play System Update updated any of the
two dozen core modules which can be updated by Google or the partner OTA or
OTN.

Andy Burnelli wrote:

> That fits with the knowledge that the core modules_can_ be updated either
> by Google or by the "Android Partner" and they can be updated OTN or OTA.
>
> The key question to answer is_how_ do we know when/if an update happened?

configure the phone to use a proxy serve under your control, and log all the
URLs it visits?

On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 08:49:44 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

>> The key question to answer is_how_ do we know when/if an update happened?
>
> configure the phone to use a proxy serve under your control, and log all the
> URLs it visits?

It won't tell us if an update happened, but of course it will tell us which
domains are visited by the phone, and perhaps which process, and which IP.

I wonder aloud if NetGuard already logs such things?

On 31 Jan 2022 07:40:27 GMT, Bob Martin wrote:

> On my Pixel 3 running Android 12 the date of Google Play system update is
> under Settings/Security.
> Currently showing January 1, 2022

The unanswered question is _when_ does the "Google Play System Update" end?

Thanks for that information because Usenet is a team sport, where, at this
point, none of us on the team know how long Google updates the two dozen
core modules which we're assuming will show up in the date fields.

Overall, I assess Android has at least a half dozen core update layers
1. User apps are often updated forever (and very many are open source);
2. Key apps like Chrome are updated forever (some of those are open source);
3. Firmware (such as the Qualcomm modem firmware) are updated by Qualcomm;
4. Security updates (these are sometimes monthly or quarterly for years);
5. Android versions (these are what changes Android 11, say, to Android 12);
6. Core modules (updated either over GPS on the net or OTA by partners);
7. In addition, all core modules are donated to AOSP to maintain forever.

On my Android 11 Samsung Galaxy A32-5G there are additional update layers:
Settings > About phone > Software information >
<https://i.postimg.cc/4ymqRF7n/updateallapps11.jpg>

Notice there are additional Android sub components listed there.
1. Android version
2. Google Play system update
3. Baseband version
4. Kernel version
5. Build number
6. SE for Android status
7. Knox version
8. Service provider software version
9. Carrier configuration version
10. Security software version
11. Android security patch level

I think, perhaps, the three most important might be these though:
*Android version*
*Google Play system update*
*Android security patch level*

Looking for the Pixel 3 update schedule, I found this from November:
*Google will be releasing one last Pixel 3 and 3 XL update in Q1 of 2022*
<https://9to5google.com/2021/11/02/last-google-pixel-3-xl-update/>

BTW, notice this "surprise update" for your Pixel 3.
*Pixel 3 Gets Surprise Update to Fix Emergency Call Bug*
<https://www.droid-life.com/2022/01/05/pixel-3-gets-surprise-update-to-fix-emergency-call-bug/>

Even after all these searches, it's hard to answer Andy's question of _when_
the two dozen Android core modules (Google Play System Update) are no longer
updated becuase even in those article, nothing is said about them (they only
talks about the Android version & the patch versions).

But these appear to be the three most important Android versions to know:
*Android version* = (e.g., Android 11 or Android 12)
*Google Play system update* = (these are two-dozen core Android modules)
*Android security patch level* = (these are the periodic security patches)

The unanswered question is _when_ does the "Google Play System Update" end?
--
Usenet is a team sport where we each pitch in to help each other learn more.

On 31 Jan 2022 07:40:27 GMT, Bob Martin wrote:

> On my Pixel 3 running Android 12 the date of Google Play system update is
> under Settings/Security.
> Currently showing January 1, 2022

The unanswered question is _when_ does the "Google Play System Update" end?

Thanks for that information because Usenet is a team sport, where, at this
point, none of us on the team know how long Google updates the two dozen
core modules which we're assuming will show up in the date fields.

Overall, I assess Android has at least a half dozen core update layers
1. User apps are often updated forever (and very many are open source);
2. Key apps like Chrome are updated forever (some of those are open source);
3. Firmware (such as the Qualcomm modem firmware) are updated by Qualcomm;
4. Security updates (these are sometimes monthly or quarterly for years);
5. Android versions (these are what changes Android 11, say, to Android 12);
6. Core modules (updated either over GPS on the net or OTA by partners);
7. In addition, all core modules are donated to AOSP to maintain forever.

On my Android 11 Samsung Galaxy A32-5G there are additional update layers:
Settings > About phone > Software information >
<https://i.postimg.cc/4ymqRF7n/updateallapps11.jpg>

Notice there are additional Android sub components listed there.
1. Android version
2. Google Play system update
3. Baseband version
4. Kernel version
5. Build number
6. SE for Android status
7. Knox version
8. Service provider software version
9. Carrier configuration version
10. Security software version
11. Android security patch level

I think, perhaps, the three most important might be these though:
*Android version*
*Google Play system update*
*Android security patch level*

Looking for the Pixel 3 update schedule, I found this from November:
*Google will be releasing one last Pixel 3 and 3 XL update in Q1 of 2022*
<https://9to5google.com/2021/11/02/last-google-pixel-3-xl-update/>

BTW, notice this "surprise update" for your Pixel 3.
*Pixel 3 Gets Surprise Update to Fix Emergency Call Bug*

<https://www.droid-life.com/2022/01/05/pixel-3-gets-surprise-update-to-fix-emergency-call-bug/>

Even after all these searches, it's hard to answer Andy's question of _when_
the two dozen Android core modules (Google Play System Update) are no longer
updated becuase even in those article, nothing is said about them (they only
talks about the Android version & the patch versions).

But these appear to be the three most important Android versions to know:
*Android version* = (e.g., Android 11 or Android 12)
*Google Play system update* = (these are two-dozen core Android modules)
*Android security patch level* = (these are the periodic security patches)

The unanswered question is _when_ does the "Google Play System Update" end?
--
Usenet is a team sport where we each pitch in to help each other learn more.

Bob Martin wrote:

> On my Pixel 3 running Android 12 the date of Google Play system update is
> under Settings/Security.
> Currently showing January 1, 2022

I just checked, mine was still on 1 Dec 2021, but there is a 1 Jan 2022 version
that I have now allowed it to install ... it wanted a reboot.

These "google play system updates" aren't as pro-active as the "android security
updates", neither of the two I have received made their availability known.

On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 08:00:01 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

>> On my Pixel 3 running Android 12 the date of Google Play system update is
>> under Settings/Security.
>> Currently showing January 1, 2022
>
> I just checked, mine was still on 1 Dec 2021, but there is a 1 Jan 2022 version
> that I have now allowed it to install ... it wanted a reboot.

Hi Andy,

The "system update" may be what we need focus on to answer the question.

Thank you & Bob Martin for this information because Usenet is a team sport
where we all pitch in to get the ball across the goal line, in this case of
*How long does Google update the two dozen "Mainline" core modules?*

You & Bob helped us hone that question to something more specific, like:
*How long does Google update the "Google Play system update" version?*

Bearing in mind there are something like a dozen _other_ versions or so:
<https://i.postimg.cc/4ymqRF7n/updateallapps11.jpg>

I think, of all Android versions, these three may be the most important:
Android "version"
Android security "patch level"
*Google Play "system update"*

When I look for EOL dates from Google, they don't always use the full words
above, but I think the colloquial search terms might be something like:
"version"
"patch level"
*"system update"*

Where in the case of your Pixel 3 (and that of Bob), these appear to be:
"version" === Android 12
"patch level" === 1 Jan 2022
*"system update"* === 1 Jan 2022

Interestingly, my far newer Samsung A32-5G is well behind your Pixel 3 at
"version" === Android 11 (Android 12 is scheduled for May 2022)
"patch level" === 1 Nov 2021 (due to be a low-end Samsung A series)
*"system update"* === 1 Jun 2021 (perhaps due to GP being disabled?)

Moving forward, what would be very helpful to the team's resolution of this
question is for you and Bob and anyone else with a Pixel (or other phone) to
keep us all informed of what your "google play system update" versions are.

> These "google play system updates" aren't as pro-active as the "android security
> updates", neither of the two I have received made their availability known.

Hi Andy,
I would modify that statement only slightly, I think, in that fundamentally
the "system update" is perhaps _very_ proactive, so much so that the
downloads for the "system update" happen completely invisibly to you in the
background (don't they?).

What's _visible_ to you is that they _require_ a reboot before they take
hold, I think, but I could be wrong on this as my phone isn't doing them.

In summary, _thank you_ for helping to answer the question posed in the
SUBJECT, where I ask you (and everyone) post the "system updates" moving
forward so that we can tell when (or even if) they stop updating us.
--
CAVEAT: I must be quick to note that my phone has almost everything Google
disabled so we can use me as a corner case only, since most people will have
the Google apps enabled but what my situation shows perhaps is _which_
Google apps are related to that invisible "system update" version.
<https://i.postimg.cc/qqVFqVwD/updateallapps10.jpg>

Andy Burnelli wrote:

> The "system update" may be what we need focus on to answer the question.

Not for Pixel3 devices, they've reached the end of the road, except for the
promised "one more for the road" update.

On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:33:00 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

>> The "system update" may be what we need focus on to answer the question.
>
> Not for Pixel3 devices, they've reached the end of the road, except for the
> promised "one more for the road" update.

Hi Andy,

I'm trying to make an important point so let's be careful because there is a
bit of confusion that is in my head with respect to explicit terminology.

Hence, I don't think "we" (both you & me!) have enough data to conclude that
the "system update" isn't forever (or some value of forever) AFAICT given we
haven't found an _explicit_ reference which distinguishes between the three.
Android version
Security update
System update

All the Google references for the Pixel 3 that I looked at only mentioned:
Android version
Security update

But I couldn't find an explicit reference to the Pixel 3 schedule for the GP
System update

Can you?
Let me first try to answer the question again, today, with a search:
<https://duckduckgo.com/?q=google+pixel+3+system+update+schedule>

First hit:
*Learn when you'll get software updates on Google Pixel phones*
<https://support.google.com/pixelphone/answer/4457705>
"The following Pixel phones no longer receive _Android version_ updates
and _security updates_" (the Pixel 3 is in that list).

Look closely please.
What's missing?

Again, I ask, look closely at the explicit words that Google used.
Android version
Security update
Where is the missing third component which is the topic of this very thread?
System update

My point is we don't have _any_ evidence yet that Google has ever stated an
explicit EOL date for the two dozen core modules comprising what they call
the "System Update" (aka the "Google Play system update").

Do we?
--
Usenet is a team sport where, together, we answer questions helpfully.

Andy Burnelli wrote:

> I don't think "we" (both you & me!) have enough data to conclude that
> the "system update" isn't forever

well, for the past 3 years, it has got an android version upgrade once a year,
and a security update every month, until last october when they all stopped (as
promised).

> (or some value of forever) AFAICT given we
> haven't found an_explicit_ reference which distinguishes between the three.
> Android version
> Security update
> System update
>
> All the Google references for the Pixel 3 that I looked at only mentioned:
> Android version
> Security update
>
> But I couldn't find an explicit reference to the Pixel 3 schedule for the GP
> System update
>
> Can you?

All the hints I see from XDA or 9to5google etc say it's monthly, and google seem
to be more open now about what's in them, though it's still fairly vague.

On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 18:34:51 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

>> I don't think "we" (both you & me!) have enough data to conclude that
>> the "system update" isn't forever
>
> well, for the past 3 years, it has got an android version upgrade once a year,
> and a security update every month, until last october when they all stopped (as
> promised).

Hmmm.... I'm not sure you understood what I was asking.
(Or maybe I don't understand what you're claiming).

The whole point of this quest is written in the SUBJECT line.

I'm claiming that what's missing from Google's EOL schedules is _not_ these!
Android version
Security update

But this!
System update

If I understand your response above, you apparently repeated what I already
said was in the Google Pixel 3 update schedules that I referenced, which was
Android version
Security update

But if I understood your response above, what is _still missing_ from your
response is you apparently omitted what I said was _missing_, which is:
System update (aka Google Play system update)

Do we have _any_ reference from Google for the Pixel 3 on that last item?

>> But I couldn't find an explicit reference to the Pixel 3 schedule for the GP
>> System update
>>
>> Can you?
>
> All the hints I see from XDA or 9to5google etc say it's monthly, and google seem
> to be more open now about what's in them, though it's still fairly vague.

What we're looking for to answer the question in the SUBJECT line isn't how
frequently Google releases the "System update" for the Pixel3, but how long.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+long+google+%22google+play+system+update>

That gives a lot of hits, but they're _all_ about these two things:
Android version
Security update

Not this one thing:
System update (aka Google Play system update)

I can't find a single reference yet that says any EOL date for the two dozen
core modules which I am assuming comprise that "System update" package.

Can you?