In article <mdd1qitmvme.fsf@panix5.panix.com>,
Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> wrote:
>Bob Gezelter <gezelter@rlgsc.com> writes:
>
>> VAX/VMS DCL was present at the initial public handbook point, and highly
>> likely earlier.
>
>> RSX-11M-PLUS genesis is later. RSX-11M DCL is well later (I was a field test
>> site for RSX-11M 3.2).
>
>> IAS I cannot speak to. Also, did not encounter RSTS/E till later.
>
>> Somewhere I had a TOPS-20 reference card, but cannot go looking for it.
>
>The TOPS-20 EXEC is very different from DCL, and predates the VAX and VMS by
>several years. Most of the lessons learned from EXEC were thrown away.

Dan Murphy's document on the history of TOPS-20 discusses this
somewhat. It seems that TOPS-20's EXEC not only influenced DCL
but was also influenced by DCL; ironically, the big change they
introduced for DCL compatibility was not picked up by VMS,
which went with the TENEX mechanism instead. Oops.

https://opost.com/tenex/hbook.html

- Dan C.

On 6/2/2023 8:37 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2023-06-01, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>>> On 2023-06-01 14:06, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>> On 2023-06-01, terry-...@glaver.org <terry-groups@glaver.org> wrote:
>>>>> As a reminder, the VSI FAQ still says "Clustering of VSI OpenVMS for
>>>>> x86-64 with VAX/VMS systems is still under investigation at this
>>>>> time." See: https://vmssoftware.com/about/v9-qa/
>>>>
>>>> That will be unencrypted clustering because otherwise VSI would have to
>>>> create a clustering compatibillity kit for existing VAX versions, which
>>>> they are not allowed to do.
>>
>> They are certainly allowed.
>>
>> VSI has stated numerous times that they are allowed to release
>> a VMS VAX version but that they have no intention of doing so
>> for commercial reasons.
>
> Please note the phrase "for existing VAX versions" above.

Yes but:

if clustering is integrated with VMS => this functionality require a new
VMS version which they are allowed to but don't want to

if clustering is not integrated with VMS => this functionality can be
provided without a new VMS version and they are allowed to but
don't want to.

Arne

On 6/2/2023 8:59 AM, abrsvc wrote:
> I have real VAX, Alpha and Itanium systems. Perhaps if I spin up an
> X86 version and cluster all of them together that would suffice? I
> can add some emulated systems to the mix for fun too.
>
> What would make this a PR win? What proof would you want for this?
> I am willing to put it together if it makes sense.

It has already been done per post to VSI forum.

We know that it works/"works".

It is all about getting some PR for it.

The point is to demonstrate VMS compatibility.

80's VMS, 90's VMS, 00's VMS and todays VMS are
extremely compatible and interoperable.

That may be enough to get attention from some
IT media.

And it is a message that IT decision makers
like to hear.

But setting it up, making it available to view in some
form, keep it running for some weeks/months etc. will
take some time.

And given that VSI is making the money from VMS sale, then
it seems natural if they do the work.

If they believe in the idea. Which is not given.

Arne

On 6/2/2023 1:36 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2023-06-02, abrsvc <dansabrservices@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I have real VAX, Alpha and Itanium systems. Perhaps if I spin up
>> an X86 version and cluster all of them together that would
>> suffice? I can add some emulated systems to the mix for fun too.
>>
>> What would make this a PR win? What proof would you want for
>> this? I am willing to put it together if it makes sense.
>>
>
> To be honest Dan, I am not really seeing the PR merits of just
> linking a current architecture (x86-64), two obsolete architectures
> (VAX and Alpha), and one mostly obsolete architecture (Itanium)
> together in a cluster.
>
> The general reaction to that outside of the VMS world is likely to
> be "so what ?".
>
> I should also point out you can build a Linux cluster across a
> larger range of architectures. Even if the Linux clustering
> capabilities are not as advanced as VMS, these days they can be made
> to be suitable for a good range of tasks.

You are missing the point.

The interesting aspect of the different hardware architectures for VMS
is not the different instruction sets per se but the age they belong to.

I am sure that RHEL 9 / x86-64 and RHEL 9 / ARM64 are very compatible
and interoperable.

But the VMS equivalent of that would be that VMS 9 / x86-64 and
the *non-existing* VMS 9 / Itanium are very compatible
and interoperable.

The fact that VMS / VAX, VMS / Alpha, VMS / Itanium and VMS / x86-64
are compatible and interoperable should be compared to:

SunOS 4.1 - Solaris 2.7 - RHEL 2 - RHEL 9
WinNT 3.1 - Win 2000 - Win 2008R2 - Win 2022

or something like that.

Is that a fair comparison? Not really. But marketing is
not about being fair!

> What _would_ be PR worthy is exactly what HP/HPE did 15 years ago,
> when they physically destroyed cluster nodes and then everyone
> watched while the remaining nodes recovered without data loss,
> especially if VMS was still the way fastest to recover as it was back
> then.
>
> However, expectations have moved on since then and such an explosion
> and simulated workload would have to be on a far larger scale than
> it was back then to be really newsworthy.

Everybody can do stuff like that today.

The fact that the functionality is typical in the applications
and not the OS does not matter much.

Arne

On 6/2/2023 4:55 PM, Mark Berryman wrote:
> On 5/31/23 1:34 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> But setting up a mixed mode cluster would be a pretty cool
>> demo.
>>
>> And why not go all out? VAX + Alpha + Itanium + x86-64!!
>>
>> Send a news flash to all IT magazines in the world and get
>> a bit of press.
>
> I have a running Alpha/Itanium/X86_64 cluster (which makes it trivially
> easy to use the cross tools (when necessary) for x86 builds).  I could
> add a simh VAX if that is really necessary.
>
> What, exactly, would you like to see?

VSI doing it and trying to get some positive PR.

:-)

Arne

On 6/2/2023 8:26 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2023-06-01, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> We are talking about a PR stunt here - running a VMS cluster with
>> 4 architecture to get some good press.
>>
>> Nobody cares whether that system uses encrypted clustering
>> traffic or not.
>
> How good do you think the press coverage will be when they find out
> this super-duper clustering technology is using completely unencrypted
> protocols ?

I don't see the problem.

Decision makers will not be interested in such detail.

The sysadm/network/security professionals will know that
a lot of data center traffic is unencrypted and ZTA
initiatives are work in progress. And as soon as they
hear the age of the involved systems then they will
not expect encryption. If they hear that there are plans
to add encryption for the systems less than 25 years old,
then they will be very happy.

That leaves the group of random internet whiners. And
they don't matter.

Arne

On 6/2/2023 8:38 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
>> On 2023-06-01, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>>> We are talking about a PR stunt here - running a VMS cluster with
>>> 4 architecture to get some good press.
>
> There appear to be users of emulated VAX systems.  These could be
> serious production systems.  Perhaps such users would like to add an x86
> VMS system, and to cluster it with their emulated VAX systems.  Why?  I
> don't know, and it doesn't matter.

We know that some VMS VAX systems still in production. Hundreds maybe
thousands.

But as I wrote in that post but did not get quoted:

# (it seems reasonable
# to assume that a VMS VAX system today is "frozen" aka don't
# want to change anything).

I don't think enough of those VMS VAX customers will be
interested in having their VAX change cluster topology
to justify any VMS VAX encryption solution.

> So, considering it a "PR stunt" is
> unfair to such users.

I don't get that.

A company makes something artificial to get some
good PR.

Why would that be unfair to the customers using the
product for something serious?

Did Tesla owners feel unfairly treated when Musk
sent a Tesla into space?

I don't think so.

Arne

On 03/06/2023 00:08, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 6/2/2023 1:36 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2023-06-02, abrsvc <dansabrservices@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> I have real VAX, Alpha and Itanium systems.  Perhaps if I spin up
>>> an X86 version and cluster all of them together that would
>>> suffice? I can add some emulated systems to the mix for fun too.
>>>
>>> What would make this a PR win?   What proof would you want for
>>> this? I am willing to put it together if it makes sense.
>>>
>>
>> To be honest Dan, I am not really seeing the PR merits of just
>> linking a current architecture (x86-64), two obsolete architectures
>> (VAX and Alpha), and one mostly obsolete architecture (Itanium)
>> together in a cluster.
>>
>> The general reaction to that outside of the VMS world is likely to
>> be "so what ?".
>>
>> I should also point out you can build a Linux cluster across a
>> larger range of architectures. Even if the Linux clustering
>> capabilities are not as advanced as VMS, these days they can be made
>> to be suitable for a good range of tasks.
>
> You are missing the point.
>
> The interesting aspect of the different hardware architectures for VMS
> is not the different instruction sets per se but the age they belong to.
>
> I am sure that RHEL 9 / x86-64 and RHEL 9 / ARM64 are very compatible
> and interoperable.
>
> But the VMS equivalent of that would be that VMS 9 / x86-64 and
> the *non-existing* VMS 9 / Itanium are very compatible
> and interoperable.
>
> The fact that VMS / VAX, VMS / Alpha, VMS / Itanium and VMS / x86-64
> are compatible and interoperable should be compared to:
>
> SunOS 4.1 - Solaris 2.7 - RHEL 2 - RHEL 9
> WinNT 3.1 - Win 2000 - Win 2008R2 - Win 2022
>
> or something like that.
>
> Is that a fair comparison? Not really. But marketing is
> not about being fair!
>
>> What _would_ be PR worthy is exactly what HP/HPE did 15 years ago,
>> when they physically destroyed cluster nodes and then everyone
>> watched while the remaining nodes recovered without data loss,
>> especially if VMS was still the way fastest to recover as it was back
>> then.
>>
>> However, expectations have moved on since then and such an explosion
>> and simulated workload would have to be on a far larger scale than
>> it was back then to be really newsworthy.
>
> Everybody can do stuff like that today.
>
> The fact that the functionality is typical in the applications
> and not the OS does not matter much.
>
> Arne
>

That reminds me of the famous bug in the Windows 3.11 calculator.
3.11 - 3.10 = 0

--
Chris

On 2023-06-02 14:34, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2023-06-01, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
>> On 2023-06-01 14:03, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> On 2023-05-31, Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
>>>> In article <nnd$6f0d1a96$39b9159a@34e78233e2c9d371>,
>>>> MG <em_geeNO@SPAMxs4all.nl> wrote:
>>>>> On 31-May-2023 21:34, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>> The totally new to VMS just wanting to try a few DCL commands
>>>>>> probably do not care what architecture they are running on - most
>>>>>> likely they will not even know. VMS is VMS.
>>>>>
>>>>> On what other platform can one run "a few DCL commands"?
>>>>
>>>> VAX. The future is VAX. Digital has it now!
>>>
>>> "Nothing sucks like a VAX". :-)
>>
>> I wonder if people will ever get that this quote is incorrect.
>>
>> There is a vacuum brand called VAX, but the quoted slogan was from
>> another brand - Electrolux. "Nothing sucks like Electrolux". Which even
>> rhymes properly.
>>
>> Johnny
>>
>
> No, it was used by the VAX vacuum cleaner people as well.
>
> Could not find any direct advertising material references, but did find
> these references:
>
> http://catb.org/jargon/html/V/VAX.html
>
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14884244

You can't find any direct advertising material because it don't exist.

And do you really think one company would copy the slogan of another
competitor?

It's just another of those urban stories that just goes around, and
reinforce themselves just because everyone else also propagates them.

If you google for "Nothing sucks like an Electrolux" you'll find plenty
of examples of ads with the slogan. Started in the 70s. Just about the
same time the VAX was introduced. And people who didn't like what DEC
was doing, or what the VAX was (read - especially PDP-10 people) just
adopted the advertising slogan to make a joke.

Johnny

On 2023-06-02 20:00, Bob Gezelter wrote:
> On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 6:31:16 PM UTC-4, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>> On 2023-06-01 20:28, Rich Alderson wrote:
>>> MG <em_g...@SPAMxs4all.nl> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 31-May-2023 21:34, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>
>>>>> The totally new to VMS just wanting to try a few DCL commands
>>>>> probably do not care what architecture they are running on - most
>>>>> likely they will not even know. VMS is VMS.
>>>
>>>> On what other platform can one run "a few DCL commands"?
>>>
>>> Umm, RSTS/E springs immediately to mind, followed closely by IAS...
>> I can't remember for sure if DCL was originally for IAS or RSX-11M-PLUS,
>> and everything else came after that.
>>
>> Johnny
> Johnny,
>
> VAX/VMS DCL was present at the initial public handbook point, and highly likely earlier.

No question that DCL was there from day one of VMS. That does not mean
DCL didn't exist before VMS.

Desperately seeking for the source/reference now, but failing at the
moment (I'll find it sooner or later). But thinking about it, I'm fairly
sure DCL originated on IAS.

Ah - found one (it). https://www.john-a-harper.com/ias.html (by one of
the people working on/implementing IAS.)

> RSX-11M-PLUS genesis is later. RSX-11M DCL is well later (I was a field test site for RSX-11M 3.2).

DCL for sure already existed by -11M 3.2, though.

Looking at RSX sources would date that version to 1980.

> IAS I cannot speak to. Also, did not encounter RSTS/E till later.

RSTS/E DCL is way later. But it is maybe the one closest to VMS.

> Somewhere I had a TOPS-20 reference card, but cannot go looking for it.

TOPS-20 EXEC is (as others mentioned) nothing near DCL.

Johnny

On 2023-06-02 01:37, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 6/1/2023 6:34 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>> On 2023-06-01 14:06, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> On 2023-06-01, terry-...@glaver.org <terry-groups@glaver.org> wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, May 31, 2023 at 6:33:17?PM UTC-4, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>>> If my feeble memory still works, I think that has already been
>>>>> answered.
>>>>>
>>>>> x86 cluster communications will be modified, and to include Alpha
>>>>> and/or
>>>>> itanic,
>>>>> a patch for either will be required. No patches for VAX, since VSI
>>>>> does not
>>>>> have a VAX release to which patches can be provided.
>>>
>>> Correct. If you are going to show off VMS clustering then it has to be
>>> secure clustering, which means the VSI changes and which means no VAX.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> As a reminder, the VSI FAQ still says "Clustering of VSI OpenVMS for
>>>> x86-64
>>>> with VAX/VMS systems is still under investigation at this time." See:
>>>> https://vmssoftware.com/about/v9-qa/
>>>
>>> That will be unencrypted clustering because otherwise VSI would have to
>>> create a clustering compatibillity kit for existing VAX versions, which
>>> they are not allowed to do.
>>
>> Says who?
>>
>> Why would they not be allowed to create any software for VMS for VAX?
>> I strongly
>> suspect that is an incorrect statement.
>>
>> They cannot issue licenses for VMS for VAX without creating a new
>> version of
>> VMS, but that have no bearing on the ability to distribute some other
>> software
>> for VMS on VAX.
>>
>> It would be like saying that noone is allowed to create any new
>> software for VMS
>> on VAX. Which would be an extremely weird thing to claim.
>>
>>   Johnny
>>
>
> You may be correct.  Would be nice.  However, we're discussing something
> tightly coupled with the OS.  A good question for VSI.

I think VSI have made it pretty clear that they don't want to touch any
VAXen with a 20 foot pole, so I suspect the topic is somewhat moot no
matter what. :-)

But maybe if someone were to throw enough money at them...

Johnny

On 6/3/2023 4:11 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:

> RSTS/E DCL is way later. But it is maybe the one closest to VMS.

That is bacause RSTS ISVs were asking DEC to make VMS look more like RSTS.

One of the DEC people, management I think, asked, "what if we implement DCL on
RSTS?". I was there when the question was asked. Yeah, the opposite of what we
were asking for, but that's how it happened.

This happened maybe around 1980. Definitely before 1982.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 03/06/2023 20:54, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2023-06-02 14:34, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2023-06-01, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
>>> On 2023-06-01 14:03, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>> On 2023-05-31, Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
>>>>> In article <nnd$6f0d1a96$39b9159a@34e78233e2c9d371>,
>>>>> MG  <em_geeNO@SPAMxs4all.nl> wrote:
>>>>>> On 31-May-2023 21:34, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>>> The totally new to VMS just wanting to try a few DCL commands
>>>>>>> probably do not care what architecture they are running on - most
>>>>>>> likely they will not even know. VMS is VMS.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On what other platform can one run "a few DCL commands"?
>>>>>
>>>>> VAX.  The future is VAX.  Digital has it now!
>>>>
>>>> "Nothing sucks like a VAX". :-)
>>>
>>> I wonder if people will ever get that this quote is incorrect.
>>>
>>> There is a vacuum brand called VAX, but the quoted slogan was from
>>> another brand - Electrolux. "Nothing sucks like Electrolux". Which even
>>> rhymes properly.
>>>
>>>     Johnny
>>>
>>
>> No, it was used by the VAX vacuum cleaner people as well.
>>
>> Could not find any direct advertising material references, but did find
>> these references:
>>
>> http://catb.org/jargon/html/V/VAX.html
>>
>> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14884244
>
> You can't find any direct advertising material because it don't exist.
>
> And do you really think one company would copy the slogan of another
> competitor?
>
> It's just another of those urban stories that just goes around, and
> reinforce themselves just because everyone else also propagates them.
>
> If you google for "Nothing sucks like an Electrolux" you'll find plenty
> of examples of ads with the slogan. Started in the 70s. Just about the
> same time the VAX was introduced. And people who didn't like what DEC
> was doing, or what the VAX was (read - especially PDP-10 people) just
> adopted the advertising slogan to make a joke.
>
>   Johnny

It may have been a British thing - The Vax was a wet and dry 'hoover'
and I remember hearing the slogan well after VAX was established

--
Chris

On 03/06/2023 21:11, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2023-06-02 20:00, Bob Gezelter wrote:
>> On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 6:31:16 PM UTC-4, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>> On 2023-06-01 20:28, Rich Alderson wrote:
>>>> MG <em_g...@SPAMxs4all.nl> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 31-May-2023 21:34, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> The totally new to VMS just wanting to try a few DCL commands
>>>>>> probably do not care what architecture they are running on - most
>>>>>> likely they will not even know. VMS is VMS.
>>>>
>>>>> On what other platform can one run "a few DCL commands"?
>>>>
>>>> Umm, RSTS/E springs immediately to mind, followed closely by IAS...
>>> I can't remember for sure if DCL was originally for IAS or RSX-11M-PLUS,
>>> and everything else came after that.
>>>
>>> Johnny
>> Johnny,
>>
>> VAX/VMS DCL was present at the initial public handbook point, and
>> highly likely earlier.
>
> No question that DCL was there from day one of VMS. That does not mean
> DCL didn't exist before VMS.
>
> Desperately seeking for the source/reference now, but failing at the
> moment (I'll find it sooner or later). But thinking about it, I'm fairly
> sure DCL originated on IAS.
>
> Ah - found one (it). https://www.john-a-harper.com/ias.html (by one of
> the people working on/implementing IAS.)
>
>> RSX-11M-PLUS genesis is later. RSX-11M DCL is well later (I was a
>> field test site for RSX-11M 3.2).
>
> DCL for sure already existed by -11M 3.2, though.
>
> Looking at RSX sources would date that version to 1980.
>
>> IAS I cannot speak to.  Also, did not encounter RSTS/E till later.
>
> RSTS/E DCL is way later. But it is maybe the one closest to VMS.
>
>> Somewhere I had a TOPS-20 reference card, but cannot go looking for it.
>
> TOPS-20 EXEC is (as others mentioned) nothing near DCL.
>
>   Johnny

ISTR that DCL came in with RSTOS V9. Many of my colleagues grumbled
about it - then we moved to VAX...

--
Chris

On 6/3/2023 6:46 PM, Chris Townley wrote:

> ISTR that DCL came in with RSTOS V9. Many of my colleagues grumbled about it -
> then we moved to VAX...

Certainly before V9, which I think came out in 1985.

I used RSTS/E in college, graduating in 1984, and definitely
used DCL on RSTS/E then.

At that time, we students didn't understand why the default
keyboard monitor changed from BASIC+ to DCL.

Yes, we knew how to switch back to BASIC+ for our KBM.

--

--- Rob

On 2023-06-04 00:44, Chris Townley wrote:
> On 03/06/2023 20:54, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>> On 2023-06-02 14:34, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> On 2023-06-01, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
>>>> On 2023-06-01 14:03, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-05-31, Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
>>>>>> In article <nnd$6f0d1a96$39b9159a@34e78233e2c9d371>,
>>>>>> MG  <em_geeNO@SPAMxs4all.nl> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 31-May-2023 21:34, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>>>> The totally new to VMS just wanting to try a few DCL commands
>>>>>>>> probably do not care what architecture they are running on - most
>>>>>>>> likely they will not even know. VMS is VMS.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On what other platform can one run "a few DCL commands"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> VAX.  The future is VAX.  Digital has it now!
>>>>>
>>>>> "Nothing sucks like a VAX". :-)
>>>>
>>>> I wonder if people will ever get that this quote is incorrect.
>>>>
>>>> There is a vacuum brand called VAX, but the quoted slogan was from
>>>> another brand - Electrolux. "Nothing sucks like Electrolux". Which even
>>>> rhymes properly.
>>>>
>>>>     Johnny
>>>>
>>>
>>> No, it was used by the VAX vacuum cleaner people as well.
>>>
>>> Could not find any direct advertising material references, but did find
>>> these references:
>>>
>>> http://catb.org/jargon/html/V/VAX.html
>>>
>>> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14884244
>>
>> You can't find any direct advertising material because it don't exist.
>>
>> And do you really think one company would copy the slogan of another
>> competitor?
>>
>> It's just another of those urban stories that just goes around, and
>> reinforce themselves just because everyone else also propagates them.
>>
>> If you google for "Nothing sucks like an Electrolux" you'll find
>> plenty of examples of ads with the slogan. Started in the 70s. Just
>> about the same time the VAX was introduced. And people who didn't like
>> what DEC was doing, or what the VAX was (read - especially PDP-10
>> people) just adopted the advertising slogan to make a joke.
>>
>>    Johnny
>
> It may have been a British thing - The Vax was a wet and dry 'hoover'
> and I remember hearing the slogan well after VAX was established

It was done by Elextrolux in Britain, if one is to believe all the
different analysises of the slogan that have been done. And it was
apparently still used into the 90s by Electrolux, even though they
started using it in the 70s.

Just google for it.

And the VAX brand of hoovers still exist as well, I believe.

Johnny

On 2023-06-03 23:04, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 6/3/2023 4:11 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>
>> RSTS/E DCL is way later. But it is maybe the one closest to VMS.
>
> That is bacause RSTS ISVs were asking DEC to make VMS look more like RSTS.

Oh that is definitely true. Under the hood, VMS is very much like RSX,
but as a user experience, it certainly is more like RSTS/E.

But this time my reflection really was that RSTS/E also, over time,
became more like VMS.

If you ever used RSTS/E V9 or later, you understand what I mean.
Otherwise, it might be an interesting experience. ;-)

> One of the DEC people, management I think, asked, "what if we implement
> DCL on RSTS?".  I was there when the question was asked.  Yeah, the
> opposite of what we were asking for, but that's how it happened.
>
> This happened maybe around 1980.  Definitely before 1982.

DCL on VMS, in the modern form at least, happened in RSTS/E V9. I'm
pretty sure of that. Which place it close to the end of the 80s.

Can't remember if some form of DCL existed earlier, but if it did, it
was a different beast.

Johnny

On 2023-06-04 04:13, Robert A. Brooks wrote:
> On 6/3/2023 6:46 PM, Chris Townley wrote:
>
>> ISTR that DCL came in with RSTOS V9. Many of my colleagues grumbled
>> about it - then we moved to VAX...
>
> Certainly before V9, which I think came out in 1985.

There was a DCL before V9, but it was rather different to what came in V9.

> I used RSTS/E in college, graduating in 1984, and definitely
> used DCL on RSTS/E then.

The DCL that existed before V9 was a rather simple KBM. The one
introduced in V9 was very similar to VMS, and is a language in addition
to being a KBM.

> At that time, we students didn't understand why the default
> keyboard monitor changed from BASIC+ to DCL.
>
> Yes, we knew how to switch back to BASIC+ for our KBM.

I'm fairly sure that still in V8, the default KBM was BASIC+. But that
could of course have been changed by the system administrators...

In V9, the default was changed to be DCL.

Johnny

On Sun, 2023-06-04 at 11:02 +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>
> And the VAX brand of hoovers still exist as well, I believe.

Yep. I have a battery operated VAX in the cupboard. Sucks pretty well.
:-D
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

Has this thread been given any consideration, i.e. by anyone at VSI?
I realize that it derailed into various off-topic discussions, as is
common here, but that was out of my hands.

Still curious, at any rate.

- MG

On 31-May-2023 22:40, MG wrote:
> Going by "Last new note", there appears to be nothing more 'recent'
> than 18-MAR-2021...

It looks like I was wrong. I 'forcefully' updated my DEC Notes
notebooks and saw more recent messages. Perhaps I'll post my
plea there and perhaps also on the VSI forum (as was suggested
in this thread).

- MG

On 2023-06-21, MG <em_geeNO@SPAMxs4all.nl> wrote:
> Has this thread been given any consideration, i.e. by anyone at VSI?
> I realize that it derailed into various off-topic discussions, as is
> common here, but that was out of my hands.
>
> Still curious, at any rate.
>
> - MG

Yes. Rob replied, saying that he was interested, but that VSI was in
the middle of moving some equipment again (I can't remember the details
or the date it would be completed by).

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On Wednesday, June 21, 2023 at 8:05:10 AM UTC-4, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2023-06-21, MG <em_g...@SPAMxs4all.nl> wrote:
> > Has this thread been given any consideration, i.e. by anyone at VSI?
> > I realize that it derailed into various off-topic discussions, as is
> > common here, but that was out of my hands.
> >
> > Still curious, at any rate.
> >
> > - MG
> Yes. Rob replied, saying that he was interested, but that VSI was in
> the middle of moving some equipment again (I can't remember the details
> or the date it would be completed by).
> Simon.
>
> --
> Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
> Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
We are relocating our servers to a different/better facility. Rob has been at the
current location helping consolidate/re-rack/etc machines in preparation for the
move. The schedule is for sometime in July. Fortunately, I'm not involved for this
move but I have spent my fair share of time in machine rooms doing exactly what
he is doing now.