I'm volunteering at a nearby facility helping people even older than I am
with computers in general where I'm astounded the biggest problem almost
everyone (who has problems) has is in ORGANIZATION.

To get a better handle on the solution all I'd like to ask in this thread is
what's the one thing you do that you find helps the most for your
organization of your computer?

What do you do on Windows that aids most in your computer organization?

Regards,
Martin Brown

In article <s82lgs$1s2p$1@gioia.aioe.org>, '''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk
says...
>
> I'm volunteering at a nearby facility helping people even older than I am
> with computers in general where I'm astounded the biggest problem almost
> everyone (who has problems) has is in ORGANIZATION.
>
> To get a better handle on the solution all I'd like to ask in this thread is
> what's the one thing you do that you find helps the most for your
> organization of your computer?
>
> What do you do on Windows that aids most in your computer organization?
>
> Regards,
> Martin Brown

Bearing in mind your client base, I'd suggest one very basic thing which is
obvious to anyone here but won't be to people who grew up before IT - and
that's to get into the habit of creating new folders, in the logical place, and
with logical names, and to move files (documents, photos, etc) into them. You
only have to be just a little older than me and this isn't intuitive!

The other thing I now find compelling is Microsoft OneNote. Again, using a
hierarchy (this time of pages, rather than folders) it's become an index to my
entire life. The *only* thing that's missing is the ability to create a link
to an individual email in Outlook.exe, and that's only because Outlook doesn't
offer that facility. Otherwise, you can link easily to web-pages, folders and
files, format text to make sense of it, draw in it, do calculations in it. My
tax return is easier now!

--

Phil, London

On Wed, 19 May 2021 10:37:39 +0100, Philip Herlihy
<thiswillbounceback@you.com> wrote:

>In article <s82lgs$1s2p$1@gioia.aioe.org>, '''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk
>says...
>>
>> I'm volunteering at a nearby facility helping people even older than I am
>> with computers in general where I'm astounded the biggest problem almost
>> everyone (who has problems) has is in ORGANIZATION.
>>
>> To get a better handle on the solution all I'd like to ask in this thread is
>> what's the one thing you do that you find helps the most for your
>> organization of your computer?
>>
>> What do you do on Windows that aids most in your computer organization?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Martin Brown
>
>Bearing in mind your client base, I'd suggest one very basic thing which is
>obvious to anyone here but won't be to people who grew up before IT - and
>that's to get into the habit of creating new folders, in the logical place, and
>with logical names, and to move files (documents, photos, etc) into them. You
>only have to be just a little older than me and this isn't intuitive!
>
>The other thing I now find compelling is Microsoft OneNote. Again, using a
>hierarchy (this time of pages, rather than folders) it's become an index to my
>entire life. The *only* thing that's missing is the ability to create a link
>to an individual email in Outlook.exe, and that's only because Outlook doesn't
>offer that facility. Otherwise, you can link easily to web-pages, folders and
>files, format text to make sense of it, draw in it, do calculations in it. My
>tax return is easier now!
What Philip said re creating a sensible (and expandable - you won't
think of everything you need in future) folder structure and naming
convention.

Also, put it in a separate partition (eg. D: drive) not in the C:
drive with Windows and programs. That way you can just look at your
data and not even see all of the "technical stuff". Makes backing up
easier as well.

On 5/19/2021 6:47 AM, Davidm wrote:
> On Wed, 19 May 2021 10:37:39 +0100, Philip Herlihy
> <thiswillbounceback@you.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <s82lgs$1s2p$1@gioia.aioe.org>, '''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk
>> says...
>>>
>>> I'm volunteering at a nearby facility helping people even older than I am
>>> with computers in general where I'm astounded the biggest problem almost
>>> everyone (who has problems) has is in ORGANIZATION.
>>>
>>> To get a better handle on the solution all I'd like to ask in this thread is
>>> what's the one thing you do that you find helps the most for your
>>> organization of your computer?
>>>
>>> What do you do on Windows that aids most in your computer organization?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Martin Brown
>>
>> Bearing in mind your client base, I'd suggest one very basic thing which is
>> obvious to anyone here but won't be to people who grew up before IT - and
>> that's to get into the habit of creating new folders, in the logical place, and
>> with logical names, and to move files (documents, photos, etc) into them. You
>> only have to be just a little older than me and this isn't intuitive!
>>
>> The other thing I now find compelling is Microsoft OneNote. Again, using a
>> hierarchy (this time of pages, rather than folders) it's become an index to my
>> entire life. The *only* thing that's missing is the ability to create a link
>> to an individual email in Outlook.exe, and that's only because Outlook doesn't
>> offer that facility. Otherwise, you can link easily to web-pages, folders and
>> files, format text to make sense of it, draw in it, do calculations in it. My
>> tax return is easier now!
> What Philip said re creating a sensible (and expandable - you won't
> think of everything you need in future) folder structure and naming
> convention.
>
> Also, put it in a separate partition (eg. D: drive) not in the C:
> drive with Windows and programs. That way you can just look at your
> data and not even see all of the "technical stuff". Makes backing up
> easier as well.
>
The first thing I would discus is basic organization like they were
taught in school. I would point out that in school they had a book for
English, Math, Spence,etc. and you were taught to file the papers in
folders for each subject. I assume this was taught in elementary
school, at least it was when I went to school a couple of decades ago
and you said these people were precomputer age people. in other words "Old"

I would point out their lives are similarly organized. ie they have
church friends, business friend, sports friends, and financial records.
They have friends that live on their street, town, etc. They have
letters, bill, and other documents from each group.

I would the stress that the computer is a filing cabinet, and should be
set up as one would set up a filing cabinet. I would point out that
their computer organization would be set up as their lives are organized
with a folder for each group or activity.

I would stress the use of File Explorer and how to create folders. It is
the 1+1=2 of the computer use. Items that should be stressed are
navigating in File Explorer and creating and deleting folder

For people who are less competent with computers, the easiest way to get
them started using folders is to use the Document folder in Windows. If
you start talking about setting different partitions, and other computer
jargon you will loose them.

The Document folder is installed with Windows so when they open File
Explorer they can find it easily. ( It can be easily backed up with any
backup program BUT I would avoid that for beginners.)

If they have laptops in the class room have each person set up a simple
set of folders based on the way their lives are organized.

Finally be there after the class is over to assist as they find they
need additional information about their computer.

If all they have is a smart phone the same principals of organization apply.

I would AVOID using any more computer terms, that absolutely possible.
They are in your class because they think they have seen the complexity
of the computer usage.

On 5/19/21 7:37 AM, this is what knuttle wrote:
> On 5/19/2021 6:47 AM, Davidm wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 May 2021 10:37:39 +0100, Philip Herlihy
>> <thiswillbounceback@you.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <s82lgs$1s2p$1@gioia.aioe.org>, '''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk
>>> says...
>>>>
>>>> I'm volunteering at a nearby facility helping people even older than I am
>>>> with computers in general where I'm astounded the biggest problem almost
>>>> everyone (who has problems) has is in ORGANIZATION.
>>>>
>>>> To get a better handle on the solution all I'd like to ask in this thread is
>>>> what's the one thing you do that you find helps the most for your
>>>> organization of your computer?
>>>>
>>>> What do you do on Windows that aids most in your computer organization?
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Martin Brown
>>>
>>> Bearing in mind your client base, I'd suggest one very basic thing which is
>>> obvious to anyone here but won't be to people who grew up before IT - and
>>> that's to get into the habit of creating new folders, in the logical place, and
>>> with logical names, and to move files (documents, photos, etc) into them.  You
>>> only have to be just a little older than me and this isn't intuitive!
>>>
>>> The other thing I now find compelling is Microsoft OneNote.  Again, using a
>>> hierarchy (this time of pages, rather than folders) it's become an index to my
>>> entire life.  The *only* thing that's missing is the ability to create a link
>>> to an individual email in Outlook.exe, and that's only because Outlook doesn't
>>> offer that facility.  Otherwise, you can link easily to web-pages, folders and
>>> files, format text to make sense of it, draw in it, do calculations in it.  My
>>> tax return is easier now!
>> What Philip said re creating a sensible (and expandable - you won't
>> think of everything you need in future) folder structure and naming
>> convention.
>>
>> Also, put it in a separate partition (eg. D: drive) not in the C:
>> drive with Windows and programs. That way you can just look at your
>> data and not even see all of the "technical stuff". Makes backing up
>> easier as well.
>>
> The first thing I would discus is basic organization like they were taught in school.  I would point out that in school they had a book for
> English, Math, Spence,etc.  and you were taught to file the papers in folders for each subject.  I assume this was taught in elementary
> school, at least it was  when I went to school a couple of decades ago and you said these people were precomputer age people. in other words
> "Old"
>
> I would point out their lives are similarly organized.  ie they have church friends, business friend, sports friends, and financial records.
> They have friends that live on their street, town, etc. They have letters, bill, and other documents from each group.
>
> I would the stress that the computer is a filing cabinet, and should be set up as one would set up a filing cabinet. I would point out that
> their computer organization would be set up as their lives are organized with a folder for each group or activity.
>
> I would stress the use of File Explorer and how to create folders. It is the 1+1=2 of the computer use.  Items that should be stressed are
> navigating in File Explorer and creating and deleting folder
>
> For people who are less competent with computers, the easiest way to get them started using folders is to use the Document folder in
> Windows.  If you start talking about setting different partitions, and other computer jargon you will loose them.
>
> The Document folder is installed with Windows so when they open File Explorer they can find it easily.  ( It can be easily backed up with
> any backup program BUT I would avoid that for beginners.)
>
> If they have laptops in the class room have each person set up a simple set of folders based on the way their lives are organized.
>
> Finally be there after the class is over to assist as they find they need additional information about their computer.
>
> If all they have is a smart phone the same principals of organization apply.
>
> I would AVOID using any more computer terms, that absolutely possible. They are in your class because they think they have seen the
> complexity of the computer usage.
>
>
+1
I would not try to circumvent the standard folders Microsoft made for a user. Documents, Pictures, Videos, Downloads, that they see are
there by default and spending time trying to learn a non default may hinder everything.

I would suggest showing them how to move a file from folder A to B. The one thing that drives me crazy about my wife is that somehow she
learned that all downloaded material stays there. So the old cleanup routines that used to maybe opt for cleaning the Download folder hurt
her. I still can't explain that you download an item and then move it to where you think it should go. If it's a Paypal statement, you
should have a Finance / statements folder in Documents maybe and you move it there if you want it, or after use, delete it.

Deleting no longer used files is another habit to teach. It isn't hard to hit del if you don't need it any more.

--
Linux Mint Cinnamon 20.1 64bit, Dell Inspiron 5570 laptop
Quad Core i7-8550U, 16G Memory, 512G SSD, 750G & 1TB HDDs
*I collect teddy bears.

"Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote

| I'm volunteering at a nearby facility helping people even older than I am
| with computers in general where I'm astounded the biggest problem almost
| everyone (who has problems) has is in ORGANIZATION.
|

I don't think you're going to change that. Especially
with older people. Older people turn on their computer,
cross their fingers, do what they must, and turn it off.
Younger people never turn their computer off, but they
treat it like an interactive TV set. They're already trained
to kiosk usage, with their data in the cloud. So they don't
actually get it any more than old people do.

In either case, talking about organization is not relevant.
Organization is for people who actually learn the device, then
use it and maintain it.

Then you have personality differences. For one person that
means folders that store files based on the first letter of the
file name. For other people it means having photos of their kids
lined up on the desktop. Still others will prefer to leave it alone.
Those are the people who feel "cozy" when they have a sea
laundry covering their bedroom floor.

If you take all that into account then you really need to
look at what works for each person.

On 5/19/2021 8:41 AM, Mayayana wrote:
> "Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote
>
> | I'm volunteering at a nearby facility helping people even older than I am
> | with computers in general where I'm astounded the biggest problem almost
> | everyone (who has problems) has is in ORGANIZATION.
> |
>
> I don't think you're going to change that. Especially
> with older people. Older people turn on their computer,
> cross their fingers, do what they must, and turn it off.
> Younger people never turn their computer off, but they
> treat it like an interactive TV set. They're already trained
> to kiosk usage, with their data in the cloud. So they don't
> actually get it any more than old people do.
>
> In either case, talking about organization is not relevant.
> Organization is for people who actually learn the device, then
> use it and maintain it.
>
> Then you have personality differences. For one person that
> means folders that store files based on the first letter of the
> file name. For other people it means having photos of their kids
> lined up on the desktop. Still others will prefer to leave it alone.
> Those are the people who feel "cozy" when they have a sea
> laundry covering their bedroom floor.
>
> If you take all that into account then you really need to
> look at what works for each person.
>
>
I object to the general characterization that old people don't
understand organization and computers.

I know that many of the people who post year are not young. We have
computers to day because of the work that old people have did in their
lives to make computers part of our world.

Organization is not an old verse young problem. I have known some
people in their teens and twenty who were very disorganized.
Unfortunately I have worked with some of them, and had to redo what they
did so we we could find things when they was needed. In one company I
worked for we painted pictures on the wall to mark where equipment was
to be stored for our young workers.

PS I am 3 score and 17 years old.

On 5/19/2021 4:37 AM, knuttle wrote:
> On 5/19/2021 6:47 AM, Davidm wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 May 2021 10:37:39 +0100, Philip Herlihy
>> <thiswillbounceback@you.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <s82lgs$1s2p$1@gioia.aioe.org>, '''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk
>>> says...
>>>>
>>>> I'm volunteering at a nearby facility helping people even older than I am
>>>> with computers in general where I'm astounded the biggest problem almost
>>>> everyone (who has problems) has is in ORGANIZATION.
>>>>
>>>> To get a better handle on the solution all I'd like to ask in this thread is
>>>> what's the one thing you do that you find helps the most for your
>>>> organization of your computer?
>>>>
>>>> What do you do on Windows that aids most in your computer organization?
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Martin Brown
>>>
>>> Bearing in mind your client base, I'd suggest one very basic thing which is
>>> obvious to anyone here but won't be to people who grew up before IT - and
>>> that's to get into the habit of creating new folders, in the logical place, and
>>> with logical names, and to move files (documents, photos, etc) into them. You
>>> only have to be just a little older than me and this isn't intuitive!
>>>
>>> The other thing I now find compelling is Microsoft OneNote. Again, using a
>>> hierarchy (this time of pages, rather than folders) it's become an index to my
>>> entire life. The *only* thing that's missing is the ability to create a link
>>> to an individual email in Outlook.exe, and that's only because Outlook doesn't
>>> offer that facility. Otherwise, you can link easily to web-pages, folders and
>>> files, format text to make sense of it, draw in it, do calculations in it. My
>>> tax return is easier now!
>> What Philip said re creating a sensible (and expandable - you won't
>> think of everything you need in future) folder structure and naming
>> convention.
>>
>> Also, put it in a separate partition (eg. D: drive) not in the C:
>> drive with Windows and programs. That way you can just look at your
>> data and not even see all of the "technical stuff". Makes backing up
>> easier as well.
>>
> The first thing I would discus is basic organization like they were
> taught in school. I would point out that in school they had a book for
> English, Math, Spence,etc. and you were taught to file the papers in
> folders for each subject. I assume this was taught in elementary
> school, at least it was when I went to school a couple of decades ago
> and you said these people were precomputer age people. in other words "Old"

Just a btw. I'm old (83) but I'm not precomputer age. I've been working
with computers since 1962, when I was 24.

--
Ken

On 5/19/2021 6:25 AM, knuttle wrote:
> On 5/19/2021 8:41 AM, Mayayana wrote:
>> "Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote
>>
>> | I'm volunteering at a nearby facility helping people even older than I am
>> | with computers in general where I'm astounded the biggest problem almost
>> | everyone (who has problems) has is in ORGANIZATION.
>> |
>>
>> I don't think you're going to change that. Especially
>> with older people. Older people turn on their computer,
>> cross their fingers, do what they must, and turn it off.
>> Younger people never turn their computer off, but they
>> treat it like an interactive TV set. They're already trained
>> to kiosk usage, with their data in the cloud. So they don't
>> actually get it any more than old people do.
>>
>> In either case, talking about organization is not relevant.
>> Organization is for people who actually learn the device, then
>> use it and maintain it.
>>
>> Then you have personality differences. For one person that
>> means folders that store files based on the first letter of the
>> file name. For other people it means having photos of their kids
>> lined up on the desktop. Still others will prefer to leave it alone.
>> Those are the people who feel "cozy" when they have a sea
>> laundry covering their bedroom floor.
>>
>> If you take all that into account then you really need to
>> look at what works for each person.
>>
>>
> I object to the general characterization that old people don't
> understand organization and computers.
>
> I know that many of the people who post year are not young. We have
> computers to day because of the work that old people have did in their
> lives to make computers part of our world.
>
> Organization is not an old verse young problem. I have known some
> people in their teens and twenty who were very disorganized.

Ditto to all you wrote above.

> Unfortunately I have worked with some of them, and had to redo what they
> did so we we could find things when they was needed. In one company I
> worked for we painted pictures on the wall to mark where equipment was
> to be stored for our young workers.
>
> PS I am 3 score and 17 years old.

I'm even older--four score and 3.

--
Ken

On 5/19/21 3:24 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
> I'm volunteering at a nearby facility helping people even older than I am
> with computers in general where I'm astounded the biggest problem almost
> everyone (who has problems) has is in ORGANIZATION.
>
> To get a better handle on the solution all I'd like to ask in this
> thread is
> what's the one thing you do that you find helps the most for your
> organization of your computer?
>
> What do you do on Windows that aids most in your computer organization?
> Regards,
> Martin Brown

In general, I try to explain the parts of a system using an analogy to
something in their lives. For example, RAM is like your brain. When you
go kaput, everything in your brain goes kaput. When you turn the
computer off, everything in RAM goes kaput.

For organization, I do similar to Keith Knuttle. Before even using the
computer, I start with an analogy. It helps if you happen to have a
whiteboard or similar to use.

"Everyone has a filing cabinet at home, right?" Then go over how you may
have your files and folders organized in each drawer, and there is no
correct way to organize files. If I"m lucky, I have a whiteboard to draw
this on. Then I point out your file cabinet organization is essentially
the same as a corporate organizational chart. Easily done by simply
changing the word on the chart you just drew.

Next, I change the corporate labels to computer labels.

I go through *all* of this before turning on the computer!

Now, it's time for the computer. Depending on the situation, try to have
Windows File Manager from the MS Store or Sourceforge installed on the
computer. It's a rewrite of File Manager from Windows 3.x. Not that you
would ever use it for today's file management, but the visual display of
a hard drive's hierarchy is the most simple, straight forward, and
easily understood display I've seen. And understanding is the goal here.

Now use Windows File Manager to show how a hard drive's file
organization is just the same as the org chart, with a slightly
different positioning of the pieces of the chart. If you are using your
own computer, make sure everything is collapsed to the root directory.

I have a chart I can hand out that shows basic structure drilling down
the Users folder. So use the users folder to for any further explanation
of Documents, Pictures, etc.

That's the overview of my method.

--
Ken
MacOS 10.14.6
Windows 10 20H2
Firefox 87.0
Thunderbird 60.9.1
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

On 5/19/2021 11:08 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
> On 5/19/2021 4:37 AM, knuttle wrote:
>> On 5/19/2021 6:47 AM, Davidm wrote:
>>> On Wed, 19 May 2021 10:37:39 +0100, Philip Herlihy
>>> <thiswillbounceback@you.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <s82lgs$1s2p$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
>>>> '''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk
>>>> says...
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm volunteering at a nearby facility helping people even older
>>>>> than I am
>>>>> with computers in general where I'm astounded the biggest problem
>>>>> almost
>>>>> everyone (who has problems) has is in ORGANIZATION.
>>>>>
>>>>> To get a better handle on the solution all I'd like to ask in this
>>>>> thread is
>>>>> what's the one thing you do that you find helps the most for your
>>>>> organization of your computer?
>>>>>
>>>>> What do you do on Windows that aids most in your computer
>>>>> organization?
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Martin Brown
>>>>
>>>> Bearing in mind your client base, I'd suggest one very basic thing
>>>> which is
>>>> obvious to anyone here but won't be to people who grew up before IT
>>>> - and
>>>> that's to get into the habit of creating new folders, in the logical
>>>> place, and
>>>> with logical names, and to move files (documents, photos, etc) into
>>>> them.  You
>>>> only have to be just a little older than me and this isn't intuitive!
>>>>
>>>> The other thing I now find compelling is Microsoft OneNote.  Again,
>>>> using a
>>>> hierarchy (this time of pages, rather than folders) it's become an
>>>> index to my
>>>> entire life.  The *only* thing that's missing is the ability to
>>>> create a link
>>>> to an individual email in Outlook.exe, and that's only because
>>>> Outlook doesn't
>>>> offer that facility.  Otherwise, you can link easily to web-pages,
>>>> folders and
>>>> files, format text to make sense of it, draw in it, do calculations
>>>> in it.  My
>>>> tax return is easier now!
>>> What Philip said re creating a sensible (and expandable - you won't
>>> think of everything you need in future) folder structure and naming
>>> convention.
>>>
>>> Also, put it in a separate partition (eg. D: drive) not in the C:
>>> drive with Windows and programs. That way you can just look at your
>>> data and not even see all of the "technical stuff". Makes backing up
>>> easier as well.
>>>
>> The first thing I would discus is basic organization like they were
>> taught in school.  I would point out that in school they had a book for
>> English, Math, Spence,etc.  and you were taught to file the papers in
>> folders for each subject.  I assume this was taught in elementary
>> school, at least it was  when I went to school a couple of decades ago
>> and you said these people were precomputer age people. in other words
>> "Old"
>
>
>
> Just a btw. I'm old (83) but I'm not precomputer age. I've been working
> with computers since 1962, when I was 24.
>
>
I knew there were more dinosaurs on this newsgroup than myself. We have
to keep the young whipper snappers in line.

Also I consider the computer age to have started with the in the 1980's
with the introductions of the personal computer.

I do know they existed before that time and remember carrying a box of
punch cards around trying keep them in order, before they were loaded in
the the computer the size of a dinosaur.

knuttle wrote:
> On 5/19/2021 11:08 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 5/19/2021 4:37 AM, knuttle wrote:
>>> On 5/19/2021 6:47 AM, Davidm wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 19 May 2021 10:37:39 +0100, Philip Herlihy
>>>> <thiswillbounceback@you.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <s82lgs$1s2p$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
>>>>> '''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk
>>>>> says...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm volunteering at a nearby facility helping people even older
>>>>>> than I am
>>>>>> with computers in general where I'm astounded the biggest problem
>>>>>> almost
>>>>>> everyone (who has problems) has is in ORGANIZATION.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To get a better handle on the solution all I'd like to ask in
>>>>>> this thread is
>>>>>> what's the one thing you do that you find helps the most for your
>>>>>> organization of your computer?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What do you do on Windows that aids most in your computer
>>>>>> organization?
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Martin Brown
>>>>>
>>>>> Bearing in mind your client base, I'd suggest one very basic thing
>>>>> which is
>>>>> obvious to anyone here but won't be to people who grew up before
>>>>> IT - and
>>>>> that's to get into the habit of creating new folders, in the
>>>>> logical place, and
>>>>> with logical names, and to move files (documents, photos, etc)
>>>>> into them. You
>>>>> only have to be just a little older than me and this isn't
>>>>> intuitive! The other thing I now find compelling is Microsoft OneNote.
>>>>> Again,
>>>>> using a
>>>>> hierarchy (this time of pages, rather than folders) it's become an
>>>>> index to my
>>>>> entire life. The *only* thing that's missing is the ability to
>>>>> create a link
>>>>> to an individual email in Outlook.exe, and that's only because
>>>>> Outlook doesn't
>>>>> offer that facility. Otherwise, you can link easily to web-pages,
>>>>> folders and
>>>>> files, format text to make sense of it, draw in it, do
>>>>> calculations in it. My
>>>>> tax return is easier now!
>>>> What Philip said re creating a sensible (and expandable - you won't
>>>> think of everything you need in future) folder structure and naming
>>>> convention.
>>>>
>>>> Also, put it in a separate partition (eg. D: drive) not in the C:
>>>> drive with Windows and programs. That way you can just look at your
>>>> data and not even see all of the "technical stuff". Makes backing
>>>> up easier as well.
>>>>
>>> The first thing I would discus is basic organization like they were
>>> taught in school. I would point out that in school they had a book
>>> for English, Math, Spence,etc. and you were taught to file the
>>> papers in folders for each subject. I assume this was taught in
>>> elementary school, at least it was when I went to school a couple
>>> of decades ago and you said these people were precomputer age
>>> people. in other words "Old"
>>
>>
>>
>> Just a btw. I'm old (83) but I'm not precomputer age. I've been
>> working with computers since 1962, when I was 24.
>>
>>
> I knew there were more dinosaurs on this newsgroup than myself. We
> have to keep the young whipper snappers in line.
>
> Also I consider the computer age to have started with the in the
> 1980's with the introductions of the personal computer.
>
> I do know they existed before that time and remember carrying a box of
> punch cards around trying keep them in order, before they were loaded
> in the the computer the size of a dinosaur.

You probably carried 2 boxes punch cards around so when the card reader ate
your first box you had a backup.

<Bill>

"knuttle" <keith_nuttle@sbcglobal.net> wrote

| I object to the general characterization that old people don't
| understand organization and computers.
|

That's another thing about old people; they're cranky. :)

On 5/19/21 10:43 AM, Mayayana wrote:
> "knuttle" <keith_nuttle@sbcglobal.net> wrote
>
> | I object to the general characterization that old people don't
> | understand organization and computers.
> |
>
> That's another thing about old people; they're cranky. :)

Goes with that handle below the radiator. LOL

--
Ken
MacOS 10.14.6
Windows 10 20H2
Firefox 87.0
Thunderbird 60.9.1
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

On 5/19/2021 12:43 PM, Mayayana wrote:
> "knuttle" <keith_nuttle@sbcglobal.net> wrote
>
> | I object to the general characterization that old people don't
> | understand organization and computers.
> |
>
> That's another thing about old people; they're cranky. :)
>
>
We have had many years to develop the talent.

On 5/19/2021 8:31 AM, knuttle wrote:
> On 5/19/2021 11:08 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 5/19/2021 4:37 AM, knuttle wrote:
>>> On 5/19/2021 6:47 AM, Davidm wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 19 May 2021 10:37:39 +0100, Philip Herlihy
>>>> <thiswillbounceback@you.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <s82lgs$1s2p$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
>>>>> '''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk
>>>>> says...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm volunteering at a nearby facility helping people even older
>>>>>> than I am
>>>>>> with computers in general where I'm astounded the biggest problem
>>>>>> almost
>>>>>> everyone (who has problems) has is in ORGANIZATION.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To get a better handle on the solution all I'd like to ask in this
>>>>>> thread is
>>>>>> what's the one thing you do that you find helps the most for your
>>>>>> organization of your computer?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What do you do on Windows that aids most in your computer
>>>>>> organization?
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Martin Brown
>>>>>
>>>>> Bearing in mind your client base, I'd suggest one very basic thing
>>>>> which is
>>>>> obvious to anyone here but won't be to people who grew up before IT
>>>>> - and
>>>>> that's to get into the habit of creating new folders, in the logical
>>>>> place, and
>>>>> with logical names, and to move files (documents, photos, etc) into
>>>>> them.  You
>>>>> only have to be just a little older than me and this isn't intuitive!
>>>>>
>>>>> The other thing I now find compelling is Microsoft OneNote.  Again,
>>>>> using a
>>>>> hierarchy (this time of pages, rather than folders) it's become an
>>>>> index to my
>>>>> entire life.  The *only* thing that's missing is the ability to
>>>>> create a link
>>>>> to an individual email in Outlook.exe, and that's only because
>>>>> Outlook doesn't
>>>>> offer that facility.  Otherwise, you can link easily to web-pages,
>>>>> folders and
>>>>> files, format text to make sense of it, draw in it, do calculations
>>>>> in it.  My
>>>>> tax return is easier now!
>>>> What Philip said re creating a sensible (and expandable - you won't
>>>> think of everything you need in future) folder structure and naming
>>>> convention.
>>>>
>>>> Also, put it in a separate partition (eg. D: drive) not in the C:
>>>> drive with Windows and programs. That way you can just look at your
>>>> data and not even see all of the "technical stuff". Makes backing up
>>>> easier as well.
>>>>
>>> The first thing I would discus is basic organization like they were
>>> taught in school.  I would point out that in school they had a book for
>>> English, Math, Spence,etc.  and you were taught to file the papers in
>>> folders for each subject.  I assume this was taught in elementary
>>> school, at least it was  when I went to school a couple of decades ago
>>> and you said these people were precomputer age people. in other words
>>> "Old"
>>
>>
>>
>> Just a btw. I'm old (83) but I'm not precomputer age. I've been working
>> with computers since 1962, when I was 24.
>>
>>
> I knew there were more dinosaurs on this newsgroup than myself. We have
> to keep the young whipper snappers in line.
>
> Also I consider the computer age to have started with the in the 1980's
> with the introductions of the personal computer.
>
> I do know they existed before that time and remember carrying a box of
> punch cards around trying keep them in order, before they were loaded in
> the the computer the size of a dinosaur.

Yes, some were the size of a dinosaur, but the first computer I worked
on (programmed) was an IBM 1401--only the size of two refrigerators.

--
Ken

On 2021-05-19 12:08 p.m., knuttle wrote:
> On 5/19/2021 12:43 PM, Mayayana wrote:
>> "knuttle" <keith_nuttle@sbcglobal.net> wrote
>>
>> | I object to the general characterization that old people don't
>> | understand organization and computers.
>> |
>>
>>    That's another thing about old people; they're cranky. :)
>>
>>
> We have had many years to develop the talent.

Yeah, I'm always totally organized, always have been, So there. :-)

Rene

"knuttle" <keith_nuttle@sbcglobal.net> wrote

I knew there were more dinosaurs on this newsgroup than myself. We have
to keep the young whipper snappers in line.
>

I think you'll be hard pressed to find a whippersnapper
around here. Young people have never heard of usenet.
And most of them don't like to write. They prefer emojis
and explanation points.

On Wed, 19 May 2021 at 08:10:42, Teddy-Bears <Bears@invalid.com> wrote
(my responses usually follow points raised):
>On 5/19/21 7:37 AM, this is what knuttle wrote:
>> On 5/19/2021 6:47 AM, Davidm wrote:
>>> On Wed, 19 May 2021 10:37:39 +0100, Philip Herlihy
>>> <thiswillbounceback@you.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <s82lgs$1s2p$1@gioia.aioe.org>, '''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk
>>>> says...
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm volunteering at a nearby facility helping people even older than I am
>>>>> with computers in general where I'm astounded the biggest problem almost
>>>>> everyone (who has problems) has is in ORGANIZATION.
>>>>>
>>>>> To get a better handle on the solution all I'd like to ask in this
>>>>>thread is
>>>>> what's the one thing you do that you find helps the most for your
>>>>> organization of your computer?

Having lots of hair to tear out ... (-:

Suggesting that if a folder has more than X files in it, it's time to
subdivide it. What X is, will cause arguments that will go on until the
cows come home; I would say around 15, 20 at the outside, but some will
be a little more tolerant. Another way could be - unless you work with
_very_ small windows - "when the right-edge scroll bar appears." (Some
people never grasp the _concept_ of the vertical scroll bar. Especially
when looking at web pages, but in explorer too.)
[]
>>>> that's to get into the habit of creating new folders, in the
>>>>logical place, and
>>>> with logical names, and to move files (documents, photos, etc) into
>>>>them.  You
>>>> only have to be just a little older than me and this isn't intuitive!

I've found plenty of people far younger than me (including plenty born
well after the computer age) who don't _do_ it. (Especially with
emails.) They have folders with hundreds of files in. (And email
"folders" - at least the main inbox - with thousands, or tens of
thousands.)
>>>>
>>>> The other thing I now find compelling is Microsoft OneNote.  Again,

I'll have to differ with you on that one. I see - through a glass,
darkly - some of its potential; however, to me it "hides" too much of
what's going on, especially the structure (or organisation) we're
discussing here. But if you find it helps, that's fine: your "students"
and mine are unlikely ever to meet (-:!
[]
>>> Also, put it in a separate partition (eg. D: drive) not in the C:
>>> drive with Windows and programs. That way you can just look at your
>>> data and not even see all of the "technical stuff". Makes backing up
>>> easier as well.

Couldn't agree more: keeping the "technical stuff" separate from your
data is IMO _very_ desirable. Makes backing up easier for both system
and data. (I image C:-plus-hidden, but just copy [albeit with a sync
tool to speed matters] D:.)
>>>
>> The first thing I would discus is basic organization like they were
>>taught in school.  I would point out that in school they had a book
>>for English, Math, Spence,etc.  and you were taught to file the

(What is Spence?)
[]
>> I would the stress that the computer is a filing cabinet, and should
>>be set up as one would set up a filing cabinet. I would point out that
>>their computer organization would be set up as their lives are
>>organized with a folder for each group or activity.

Yes and no: I don't know many real filing cabinets where people keep
folders within folders. You can talk about drawers, but that can lead to
the view that only a fixed number of levels (probably about 3) is
appropriate. Though I don't have a better analogy (other than leaves and
branches, which is hard to relate to, so I'd like to hear a better one).

>> I would stress the use of File Explorer and how to create folders.
>>It is the 1+1=2 of the computer use.  Items that should be stressed
>>are navigating in File Explorer and creating and deleting folder

Thoroughly agree. (Hadn't thought of deleting much!)

>> For people who are less competent with computers, the easiest way to
>>get them started using folders is to use the Document folder in
>>Windows.  If you start talking about setting different partitions, and
>>other computer jargon you will loose them.

I would avoid "partition". Just use drive letters. _If_ you can get in
and change the location of the default folders (documents, music, etc.)
to point to D: - creating D: first if necessary - then even drive
letters _maybe_ can be avoided.

>> The Document folder is installed with Windows so when they open File
>>Explorer they can find it easily.  ( It can be easily backed up with
>>any backup program BUT I would avoid that for beginners.)

Opening File explorer with Win+E avoids the fake folders.

>> If they have laptops in the class room have each person set up a
>>simple set of folders based on the way their lives are organized.

That assumes that they _are_. Plus they'll all be different, so expect a
lot of after-support! But yes, sounds good.

>> Finally be there after the class is over to assist as they find they
>>need additional information about their computer.

Definitely.

Also be sensitive to when they have had enough, in any one session.
Trying to do more after that point will just frustrate both of you.

>> If all they have is a smart phone the same principals of
>>organization apply.
>> I would AVOID using any more computer terms, that absolutely
>>possible. They are in your class because they think they have seen the
>>complexity of the computer usage.
>>
>+1
+2

>I would not try to circumvent the standard folders Microsoft made for a
>user. Documents, Pictures, Videos, Downloads, that they see are there
>by default and spending time trying to learn a non default may hinder
>everything.

True. I hate that structure, but so much software is designed to use it,
that fighting it is a lost cause - and will cause confusion. I would,
however, get in and re-point the standard folders away from C:,
including inside Office (and any other software that defaults to C:,
though I doubt they'll have much other than Office).
>
>I would suggest showing them how to move a file from folder A to B.

Try to get a feel as early as possible which students have difficulty
with the mouse (especially trackpads on laptops). Ideally, have a lesson
or two playing with them - that's what patience/solitaire is _there_
for; just if they'd called them "mouse training aids" rather than
"games", nobody would use them. If some just do not manage with the
mouse, be prepared to teach them the menu methods - tab into the
right-hand pane, up/down to get to the file in question, Alt-E to bring
up edit, cut/copy/paste. (No, that isn't complicated, it just sounds it
to describe, like walking.) Moving a file from A to B with the mouse is
terrifying for the beginner, if they drop it into a rack of folders and
aren't sure which one it fell into - especially if the rack "helpfully"
expands just as you drop. (I haven't - since XP! - found a way of
stopping that "helpfulness" - anyone?)

>The one thing that drives me crazy about my wife is that somehow she
>learned that all downloaded material stays there. So the old cleanup
>routines that used to maybe opt for cleaning the Download folder hurt
>her. I still can't explain that you download an item and then move it
>to where you think it should go. If it's a Paypal statement, you

(Is it only downloads? I suspect she doesn't do much moving at all,
except when you're watching!)

>should have a Finance / statements folder in Documents maybe and you
>move it there if you want it, or after use, delete it.
>
>Deleting no longer used files is another habit to teach. It isn't hard
>to hit del if you don't need it any more.
>
Though there's always the fear of accidentally deleting something you
want; stories of hours/days/weeks of work being deleted by mistake have
been with us since computers started to be common, unfortunately (and
with reason, sadly).
>
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Abandon hope, all ye who <ENTER> here.

On Wed, 19 May 2021 at 08:41:06, Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam>
wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
>"Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote
>
>| I'm volunteering at a nearby facility helping people even older than I am
>| with computers in general where I'm astounded the biggest problem almost
>| everyone (who has problems) has is in ORGANIZATION.
>|
>
> I don't think you're going to change that. Especially
>with older people. Older people turn on their computer,
>cross their fingers, do what they must, and turn it off.

Agreed - and one of the most frustrating things! The mental image of
waiting for it to come up - even with an ultra-fast machine, that just
comes out of sleep: you've got to include the human side - going to
where the computer is, and physically opening it - is a disincentive to
using it. If I could just get her to leave it open and on ... |-:

>Younger people never turn their computer off, but they
>treat it like an interactive TV set. They're already trained
>to kiosk usage, with their data in the cloud. So they don't
>actually get it any more than old people do.

(-:
>
> In either case, talking about organization is not relevant.
>Organization is for people who actually learn the device, then
>use it and maintain it.

Well, the extent varies with every user. The OP did ask for something
like "what single thing do you find most helpful", so to answer that you
have to give a general thought, and accept it won't suit all. (And he
did put Organisation as the subject.) I think he's talking about a class
who have got somewhat past turning it on.
>
> Then you have personality differences. For one person that
>means folders that store files based on the first letter of the

Agreed that is frustrating!

>file name. For other people it means having photos of their kids
>lined up on the desktop. Still others will prefer to leave it alone.
>Those are the people who feel "cozy" when they have a sea
>laundry covering their bedroom floor.

(I'm unfamiliar with the expression "a sea laundry". Is it a US one?)
>
> If you take all that into account then you really need to
>look at what works for each person.
>
Indeed. Teaching computers _near_ beginner level is _mostly_ only
possible at an individual level. (And many other subjects too!)
>
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

We're done for the night. I'm off for a cup of tea and some crystal meth.
Only joking. I've had quite enough tea for one day.
- Victoria Coren Mitchell, quoted in RT 2017/10/7013

On Wed, 19 May 2021 12:17:34 -0500, Rene Lamontagne <rlamont@shaw.ca>
wrote:

>On 2021-05-19 12:08 p.m., knuttle wrote:
>> On 5/19/2021 12:43 PM, Mayayana wrote:
>>> "knuttle" <keith_nuttle@sbcglobal.net> wrote
>>>
>>> | I object to the general characterization that old people don't
>>> | understand organization and computers.
>>> |
>>>
>>>    That's another thing about old people; they're cranky. :)
>>>
>>>
>> We have had many years to develop the talent.
>
>Yeah, I'm always totally organized, always have been, So there. :-)

Can you consistently enter a room and remember why you went there?

On 2021-05-19 1:06 p.m., Char Jackson wrote:
> On Wed, 19 May 2021 12:17:34 -0500, Rene Lamontagne <rlamont@shaw.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2021-05-19 12:08 p.m., knuttle wrote:
>>> On 5/19/2021 12:43 PM, Mayayana wrote:
>>>> "knuttle" <keith_nuttle@sbcglobal.net> wrote
>>>>
>>>> | I object to the general characterization that old people don't
>>>> | understand organization and computers.
>>>> |
>>>>
>>>>    That's another thing about old people; they're cranky. :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>> We have had many years to develop the talent.
>>
>> Yeah, I'm always totally organized, always have been, So there. :-)
>
> Can you consistently enter a room and remember why you went there?
>

Only the bathroom. :-)

Rene

On 2021-05-19 12:35 p.m., Mayayana wrote:
> "knuttle" <keith_nuttle@sbcglobal.net> wrote
>
> I knew there were more dinosaurs on this newsgroup than myself. We have
> to keep the young whipper snappers in line.
>>
>
> I think you'll be hard pressed to find a whippersnapper
> around here. Young people have never heard of usenet.
> And most of them don't like to write. They prefer emojis
> and explanation points.
>
>

Just talked to my sister in Alberta, She says she really doesn't enjoy
her computer much any more, she says its getting too complicated.

Shes 90, I'm only 87.

Rene

Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
> "knuttle" <keith_nuttle@sbcglobal.net> wrote
>
> | I object to the general characterization that old people don't
> | understand organization and computers.
>
> That's another thing about old people; they're cranky. :)

No we're *not*! We're only cranky when faced with stupidity, which is
99.999% of the time!

As to my organization, it's right there in the upper-right [1], so
there you go!

And now get off my lawn!

[1] Assuming - albeit probably incorrectly - you have a real newsreader.

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote

| >Those are the people who feel "cozy" when they have a sea
| >laundry covering their bedroom floor.
| | (I'm unfamiliar with the expression "a sea laundry". Is it a US one?)

Woops. That should have been "sea of laundry". some
people just never put clothes away, or otherwsie surround
themselves with their own cooties. I once had a girlfriend
like that. She insisted on cleaning the coffee table regularly.
But then she'd put all her junk back on it!