On 5/19/2021 10:54 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> On Wed, 19 May 2021 at 08:41:06, Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam>
> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
>>"Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote
>>
>>| I'm volunteering at a nearby facility helping people even older than I am
>>| with computers in general where I'm astounded the biggest problem almost
>>| everyone (who has problems) has is in ORGANIZATION.
>>|
>>
>> I don't think you're going to change that. Especially
>>with older people. Older people turn on their computer,
>>cross their fingers, do what they must, and turn it off.
>
> Agreed - and one of the most frustrating things! The mental image of
> waiting for it to come up - even with an ultra-fast machine, that just
> comes out of sleep: you've got to include the human side - going to
> where the computer is, and physically opening it -

Physically opening it? Are you thinking of a laptop? To me there are
many disadvantages to a laptop, but is that one I'd never thought of?

--
Ken

"Rene Lamontagne" <rlamont@shaw.ca> wrote

| Just talked to my sister in Alberta, She says she really doesn't enjoy
| her computer much any more, she says its getting too complicated.
| | Shes 90, I'm only 87.
|

My father did well with computers, mostly teaching
himself, until he was about 90. Then he started to find
it complicated. The last time I tried to help him he was
trying to figure out why Google wouldn't give him his
email, even though he'd entered his landline number. It
got to be too much for him. Now he's almost 99. It's
all he can do to turn on the TV. But it's only partly his
fading mind. It's also partly idiocy like Google insisting
that he provide a cellphone number and demanding that
people look for fire hydrants in 9 photos. That stuff is
designed for/by kids.

On 5/19/2021 10:37 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> On Wed, 19 May 2021 at 08:10:42, Teddy-Bears <Bears@invalid.com> wrote
> (my responses usually follow points raised):
>>On 5/19/21 7:37 AM, this is what knuttle wrote:
>>> On 5/19/2021 6:47 AM, Davidm wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 19 May 2021 10:37:39 +0100, Philip Herlihy
>>>> <thiswillbounceback@you.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <s82lgs$1s2p$1@gioia.aioe.org>, '''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk
>>>>> says...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm volunteering at a nearby facility helping people even older than I am
>>>>>> with computers in general where I'm astounded the biggest problem almost
>>>>>> everyone (who has problems) has is in ORGANIZATION.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To get a better handle on the solution all I'd like to ask in this
>>>>>>thread is
>>>>>> what's the one thing you do that you find helps the most for your
>>>>>> organization of your computer?
>
> Having lots of hair to tear out ... (-:
>
> Suggesting that if a folder has more than X files in it, it's time to
> subdivide it. What X is, will cause arguments that will go on until the
> cows come home; I would say around 15, 20 at the outside, but some will
> be a little more tolerant.

I don't want to get into an argument about it, but I have many *much*
larger folders. I just quickly checked a couple; they were 2507 and 1707.

I don't claim that my practices in this are right and yours are wrong.
We're all different and what's right for one of us isn't right for everyone.

>>Deleting no longer used files is another habit to teach. It isn't hard
>>to hit del if you don't need it any more.
>>
> Though there's always the fear of accidentally deleting something you
> want; stories of hours/days/weeks of work being deleted by mistake have
> been with us since computers started to be common, unfortunately (and
> with reason, sadly).

That's one of the reasons why teaching them to do regular backups is so
important.

--
Ken

On 5/19/2021 10:35 AM, Mayayana wrote:
> "knuttle" <keith_nuttle@sbcglobal.net> wrote
>
> I knew there were more dinosaurs on this newsgroup than myself. We have
> to keep the young whipper snappers in line.
>>
>
> I think you'll be hard pressed to find a whippersnapper
> around here. Young people have never heard of usenet.

*Most* young people have never heard of usenet.

> And most of them don't like to write. They prefer emojis
> and explanation points.

Yes, most of then prefer emojis,but I don't know anyone who likes
explanation points.

--
Ken

On 5/19/2021 11:36 AM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
> On 2021-05-19 12:35 p.m., Mayayana wrote:
>> "knuttle" <keith_nuttle@sbcglobal.net> wrote
>>
>> I knew there were more dinosaurs on this newsgroup than myself. We have
>> to keep the young whipper snappers in line.
>>>
>>
>> I think you'll be hard pressed to find a whippersnapper
>> around here. Young people have never heard of usenet.
>> And most of them don't like to write. They prefer emojis
>> and explanation points.
>>
>>
>
> Just talked to my sister in Alberta, She says she really doesn't enjoy
> her computer much any more, she says its getting too complicated.

When I first got a PC, I enjoyed it. Today there are probably a few
things about that I enjoy, but mostly I use it because of the benefits
it provides.

I don't play computer games, but I suppose the people who do enjoy it.

--
Ken

On 5/19/2021 12:36 PM, Mayayana wrote:
> "Rene Lamontagne" <rlamont@shaw.ca> wrote
>
> | Just talked to my sister in Alberta, She says she really doesn't enjoy
> | her computer much any more, she says its getting too complicated.
> |
> | Shes 90, I'm only 87.
> |
>
> My father did well with computers, mostly teaching
> himself, until he was about 90. Then he started to find
> it complicated. The last time I tried to help him he was
> trying to figure out why Google wouldn't give him his
> email, even though he'd entered his landline number. It
> got to be too much for him. Now he's almost 99. It's
> all he can do to turn on the TV. But it's only partly his
> fading mind. It's also partly idiocy like Google insisting
> that he provide a cellphone number and demanding that
> people look for fire hydrants in 9 photos. That stuff is
> designed for/by kids.

It depends on what age someone can be to still be called a kid, but I
think almost all software these days is designed by kids.

--
Ken

On Wed, 19 May 2021 at 12:36:17, Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote
(my responses usually follow points raised):
>On 5/19/2021 10:54 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 May 2021 at 08:41:06, Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam>
>> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
[]
>>> I don't think you're going to change that. Especially
>>>with older people. Older people turn on their computer,
>>>cross their fingers, do what they must, and turn it off.
>> Agreed - and one of the most frustrating things! The mental image of
>> waiting for it to come up - even with an ultra-fast machine, that just
>> comes out of sleep: you've got to include the human side - going to
>> where the computer is, and physically opening it -
>
>
>Physically opening it? Are you thinking of a laptop? To me there are
>many disadvantages to a laptop, but is that one I'd never thought of?
>
Yes. I suppose keeping it closed when not in use reduces the amount of
dust attracted. But I just meant - every step - mechanical, human, or
software - that adds to the time (and steps) before it's ready to be
used, makes it more likely that the computer will only be turned on for
specific tasks, rather than left on and used whenever anything comes up.
>
>
>
4 --
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

No sense being pessimistic. It wouldn't work anyway.
- Penny Mayes, UMRA, 2014-August

On 2021-05-19 2:36 p.m., Mayayana wrote:
> "Rene Lamontagne" <rlamont@shaw.ca> wrote
>
> | Just talked to my sister in Alberta, She says she really doesn't enjoy
> | her computer much any more, she says its getting too complicated.
> |
> | Shes 90, I'm only 87.
> |
>
> My father did well with computers, mostly teaching
> himself, until he was about 90. Then he started to find
> it complicated. The last time I tried to help him he was
> trying to figure out why Google wouldn't give him his
> email, even though he'd entered his landline number. It
> got to be too much for him. Now he's almost 99. It's
> all he can do to turn on the TV. But it's only partly his
> fading mind. It's also partly idiocy like Google insisting
> that he provide a cellphone number and demanding that
> people look for fire hydrants in 9 photos. That stuff is
> designed for/by kids.
>
>

Yes ,for a lot of older folk the computer is getting to be too much to
keep up with.
Glad to hear your father is doing OK and tell him to keep up the good fight.

Rene

Snowshed. wrote:
> On 5/19/21 3:24 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
>> I'm volunteering at a nearby facility helping people even older than I am
>> with computers in general where I'm astounded the biggest problem almost
>> everyone (who has problems) has is in ORGANIZATION.
>>
>> To get a better handle on the solution all I'd like to ask in this
>> thread is
>> what's the one thing you do that you find helps the most for your
>> organization of your computer?
>>
>> What do you do on Windows that aids most in your computer organization?
>> Regards,
>> Martin Brown
>
> In general, I try to explain the parts of a system using an analogy to
> something in their lives.

We used to do that, back in marketing days.

That was desktop paradigm marketing.

You don't have to do that as part of the
rote learning process for using a computer.

What you should be teaching a student, is
enough mechanical detail to get minimal amounts
of stuff done. For example, you have to separate
procedural launch from object oriented launch, and
taylor your presentation so that you aren't presenting
both topics at the same time.

"Start, Open a Program, Open a File" <=== procedural order

"File manager, double click opens file and application" <=== object oriented

The first method, always delivers a result. The second, does not.

You have to teach way too much arcane material about
File Manager, to make double-clicking in there a topic
of consideration (as "the first lesson").

The student may notice, while you put on live demos
of computer usage, how you use the stuff, but, without
a lot of clever fishing stories. We're not trying to
make a computer sale here, or prove how the Apple approach
is superior to the Windows approach. You can, for example,
casually drop a file into the Trash, then only expand
on what just happened, if a student asks.

Lots of things we do, made sense in simpler times, today
they no longer make sense. For example, how do you bind
a file type to an application for File Manager usage ?
It's a royal bitch, and the instructor is unlikely
to give a successful demo, without a lot of backtracking,
humming and hawing. Any procedure Windows has dreamed up
that is impossibly complex, is not a candidate for entry-level
learning. This ties our hands in so many ways, and
your job is as much "teaching survival skills" as anything
else.

for example, a separate section should be devoted to
"where did my file go?". And guess what, Windows by
itself, can't help the student find their fucking file.
It's Agent Ransack time! Terrible. Terrible messaging.
Terrible lesson design. Bad all round. But, the survival
skill must be taught, or else. Federated Search does
absolutely nothing for the novice student. Only Vista
had the "try harder" search option which resorted to
an Agent Ransack style search. Now, that was clever.
I really liked that feature.

I would teach Agent Ransack, as a part of teaching
students what we mean by "brute force". That "brute force"
gets results, but it not very efficient, and is slow.
We can thank the gluttony of Windows, for forcing a
brute force search to go through WinSXS a zillion times
for no reason. Certainly another style of file organization
would be in order, but the student we are teaching,
has to be ready to use the most horribly prepared
PC (like that machine at the Public Library).

*******

We order our work like this, so *Others* can find stuff.
Not for ourselves.

C:
FamilyMatters
BirthdayPlan
birthday.docx
birthday.jpg

For ourselves, we use whatever makes sense to us. But
at the peril that if we die, Uncle Vinny has to be
able to traverse the drive and find the LastWillAndTestament.

You can teach this as "a solution", you can teach the
value of it, but don't really expect students to
follow this advice, until they have a "where did my
file go?" experience.

I worked with a guy, if you looked in his directory, it
would have this as elements. This is what happens
when individuals are too smart for their own good.

New Folder
New File.txt
Copy of New File.txt
New Folder2
...

And, he could unerringly locate content in that mess!
And guess what his business card said. "CPU Architect"!
That's what he did for us.

Now, Lord knows I tried to instill some sense of order
into that guy, for nothing. And that's all part of me
learning what works and what doesn't work. Only if
a student is willing to recant their chosen org plan,
will you make any progress.

You could have predicted that outcome though, if you
knew the guys work experience and life experience.
He didn't have a "personal computer" background. He
worked on a team designing mainframes. That's a
mostly flat 191 and 192. I don't think anyone
taught him how to use a personal computer. It was
all acquired by just trying stuff. You can see
what a result we got. His Chess Master brain
could "see through" any amount of naming obfuscation.

He would tell me "my system work!" with that shit eating
grin of his, and well, I could not argue with that. Didn't
do the rest of us much good.

Paul

On 5/19/2021 1:37 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> Though there's always the fear of accidentally deleting something you
> want; stories of hours/days/weeks of work being deleted by mistake have
> been with us since computers started to be common, unfortunately (and
> with reason, sadly).
>>
> --
That is why I am dreading getting a new computer when my laptop dies.
It looks like the maximum storage capacity on most new computers is
512GB. I my current 1TB drive has nearly 300GB of data on it.

I have a lot of pictures, genealogical document images, and a trail
camera. Do I access them all daily, NO! Have I accessed some very old
files in the last week? Yes! I know that I could put some of that on an
extennal drive, but that defeats the portablilty of a laptop. If I
wanted to be tied to a lot of periferals I would stay with desktop.

On Wed, 19 May 2021 at 18:53:28, knuttle <keith_nuttle@sbcglobal.net>
wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
>
>On 5/19/2021 1:37 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>> Though there's always the fear of accidentally deleting something you
>>want; stories of hours/days/weeks of work being deleted by mistake
>>have been with us since computers started to be common, unfortunately
>>(and with reason, sadly).
>>>
>> --
>That is why I am dreading getting a new computer when my laptop dies.
>It looks like the maximum storage capacity on most new computers is
>512GB. I my current 1TB drive has nearly 300GB of data on it.

Fear not. 512G might be the largest SSD (solid-state drive) you can get
(in laptop size - I know you can get at least 1 TB SSDs in desktop size,
but probably in laptop size too). But last time I looked, you can still
get laptops with hard drives in them - and you can get up to at least 2T
in laptop-sized hard drives, so even if you get one with a smaller HD,
you can upgrade it. Laptops with HDs rather than SSDs even tend to be
cheaper, as it's seen as older technology.

(_Don't_ assume you can buy one with an SSD and replace it with a
larger-capacity HD though - the form factor of _some_ recent SSDs is
different.)
>
>I have a lot of pictures, genealogical document images, and a trail
>camera. Do I access them all daily, NO! Have I accessed some very old
>files in the last week? Yes! I know that I could put some of that on an

Same here other than the trail camera.

>extennal drive, but that defeats the portablilty of a laptop. If I
>wanted to be tied to a lot of periferals I would stay with desktop.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

So, Heresy be damned (well, it would be, wouldn't it?).
Radio Times 24-30 July 2010 (page 24)

In article <MRoTfAriKapgFwT4@255soft.uk>, J. P. Gilliver (John)
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

> >That is why I am dreading getting a new computer when my laptop dies.
> >It looks like the maximum storage capacity on most new computers is
> >512GB. I my current 1TB drive has nearly 300GB of data on it.
>
> Fear not. 512G might be the largest SSD (solid-state drive) you can get
> (in laptop size - I know you can get at least 1 TB SSDs in desktop size,
> but probably in laptop size too).

the largest ssd available in a laptop is currently 8tb. it's also not
cheap and overkill for most people.

1tb is fairly common and probably the sweet spot for price/capacity.

some laptops have swappable ssd, in which case, swap in whatever size
you want and can afford.

On Wed, 19 May 2021 18:53:28 -0400, knuttle <keith_nuttle@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

>
>On 5/19/2021 1:37 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>> Though there's always the fear of accidentally deleting something you
>> want; stories of hours/days/weeks of work being deleted by mistake have
>> been with us since computers started to be common, unfortunately (and
>> with reason, sadly).
>>>
>> --
>That is why I am dreading getting a new computer when my laptop dies.
>It looks like the maximum storage capacity on most new computers is
>512GB. I my current 1TB drive has nearly 300GB of data on it.

It's beyond simple to swap a drive for a bigger one, especially on a
laptop, so I wouldn't be too concerned about that.

>I have a lot of pictures, genealogical document images, and a trail
>camera. Do I access them all daily, NO! Have I accessed some very old
>files in the last week? Yes! I know that I could put some of that on an
>extennal drive, but that defeats the portablilty of a laptop. If I
>wanted to be tied to a lot of periferals I would stay with desktop.

Many/most modern laptops can accommodate at least two drives these days,
and sometimes three, especially if they have m.2 slots, and that's not
counting putting an SSD where the optical drive sits.

I was using a company-provided Lenovo laptop until about a year ago. It had
three m.2 slots and an (obsolete) optical drive that I could have swapped
out for a full-size SSD, and with 1TB SSD prices dropping like a rock,
storage was never an issue.

"Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:s82lgs$1s2p$1@gioia.aioe.org...
> I'm volunteering at a nearby facility helping people even older than I am
> with computers in general where I'm astounded the biggest problem almost
> everyone (who has problems) has is in ORGANIZATION.
>
> To get a better handle on the solution all I'd like to ask in this thread
> is
> what's the one thing you do that you find helps the most for your
> organization of your computer?
>
> What do you do on Windows that aids most in your computer organization?
>

I start with explaining that they have a lot of information to take in, in a
short time & not all of it is going to stick, but not to worry about it as
it will come with practice. I also tell them that they can't do any damage
except for physical eg if they drop the computer on the floor.
Turning on the PC or laptop
Mouse use: Left click, right click, context menu explanation, centre wheel,
opening file explorer & scrolling.
File renaming & storage.
Difference between a search engine & a browser.
Basic terminology so that they understand what they read.
The hardest part is getting an understanding of whether a file or operation
is on the PC, on the web or both.

--
Regards
wasbit

knuttle wrote:
>
> On 5/19/2021 1:37 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>> Though there's always the fear of accidentally deleting something you
>> want; stories of hours/days/weeks of work being deleted by mistake
>> have been with us since computers started to be common, unfortunately
>> (and with reason, sadly).
>>>
>> --
> That is why I am dreading getting a new computer when my laptop dies. It
> looks like the maximum storage capacity on most new computers is 512GB.
> I my current 1TB drive has nearly 300GB of data on it.
>
> I have a lot of pictures, genealogical document images, and a trail
> camera. Do I access them all daily, NO! Have I accessed some very old
> files in the last week? Yes! I know that I could put some of that on an
> extennal drive, but that defeats the portablilty of a laptop. If I
> wanted to be tied to a lot of periferals I would stay with desktop.

If you're after an OEM computer, a build to order
will have options for larger drives of the SSD persuasion.

The machine I evaluated here, could hold 32TB of
perfectly silent storage, in a "laptop". This particular
machine has multiple M.2 slots.

https://i.postimg.cc/brQ6GjDc/build-to-order.gif

The staff in the store that sell those, are as clueless
as can be.

Whereas at least my regular computer store,
you could discuss issues like this and get reasonable
answers. The staff at my computer store know that 8TB
is the current QLC size limit for storage (and that's somewhat
defined by purchase price). If an item is too expensive,
nobody buys it and it's a marketing flop. If you were
wondering "where is my 40TB or 100TB drive", items like
that exist, but they're so expensive, the marketing bumpf
doesn't even mention a price. You have to sell your car,
to drive home your new SSD... Whee...

Summary: Just be careful what you wish for, OK ? QLC... Ugh.
Buy the drive that fits. If 2TB is enough, buy a 2TB
drive, and that'll be TLC.

https://www.newegg.com/SAMSUNG-2TB-980-Pro/p/20-147-796
7.2W burst mode (function of lane rates). 0.035W idle.
1200 TBW (total writes), write the drive 600 times.

(SAMSUNG 870 QVO 2TB is 720 TBW)
(SAMSUNG 850 PRO 2TB is 450 TBW) <=== but write speed is constant

Paul

On Wed, 19 May 2021 at 19:52:34, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> wrote
(my responses usually follow points raised):
[]
>It's beyond simple to swap a drive for a bigger one, especially on a

In a desktop machine, I'd agree (mechanically, at least; if it's the one
that includes C: [and any hidden partitions], _not_ that trivial).

>laptop, so I wouldn't be too concerned about that.

Laptop, depends on case design. Some do have a disc-drive-sized flap
that can be unscrewed, which does make things fairly easy (mechanically;
sorting out the data transfer, less so). Some, however, do not, meaning
you have to remove the entire bottom cover - which while not _that_
difficult, I certainly wouldn't describe as "beyond simple" - you have
to _find_ where all the screws are for a start, and some can be inside
the battery compartment, or even under the keyboard.

If anything, I'd say _more_ are of this type (one-piece bottom shell),
with the advent of SSDs.
[]
>Many/most modern laptops can accommodate at least two drives these days,

I think we're probably operating at different parts of the price curve,

>and sometimes three, especially if they have m.2 slots, and that's not
>counting putting an SSD where the optical drive sits.

, and different concepts of what's acceptable (especially if we're
talking of talking to newbies).
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

More people watch live theatre every year than Premier League football
matches. - Libby Purves, RT 2017/9/30-10/6

On Thu, 20 May 2021 at 10:11:42, wasbit <wasbitremove@hotmail.com> wrote
(my responses usually follow points raised):
>"Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:s82lgs$1s2p$1@gioia.aioe.org...
[]
>> what's the one thing you do that you find helps the most for your
>> organization of your computer?
>>
>> What do you do on Windows that aids most in your computer organization?
>>
What's below looks like an excellent syllabus for a full course. Martin
asked for "what's the one thing ... that ... helps the most", and
specifically mentioned organisation, which the below doesn't answer.
Having said that:
>
>I start with explaining that they have a lot of information to take in,
>in a short time & not all of it is going to stick, but not to worry
>about it as it will come with practice. I also tell them that they

A good start. Not necessarily reassuring for the terrified, who are the
ones I most like to teach, but a point that needs making at some point.

>can't do any damage except for physical eg if they drop the computer on
>the floor.

Unfortunately, it's possible to do non-physical damage that can take
time to fix, and unless someone like you is going to fix it, that means
money (and, I'd say, also involves the risk of the "fixer" "fixing" it
very badly).

>Turning on the PC or laptop

And off.

>Mouse use: Left click, right click, context menu explanation, centre
>wheel, opening file explorer & scrolling.

All excellent. Probably about one and a half lessons there. (In some
ways ideally longer, spending a long time on each, but some will get
bored, and others will get overwhelmed.)

>File renaming & storage.

I think that might be closest to what Martin was asking about.

>Difference between a search engine & a browser.

Oh boy yes! I used to have a workshop boss who put _everything_ into the
search box in Google. Give him a URL - that's where he'd put it.
(Difference between the internet and the web too, though that's probably
a lost cause by now.)

A search engine is a bit like Alexa.

>Basic terminology so that they understand what they read.

Agreed again - and warning that many even in the trade (certainly those
involved in selling) are quite likely to misuse, and even swap, terms.

>The hardest part is getting an understanding of whether a file or
>operation is on the PC, on the web or both.
>
Interesting. A bit further along than the hardest part I encounter,
which is just getting over the concept of files, folders, and so on.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

More people watch live theatre every year than Premier League football
matches. - Libby Purves, RT 2017/9/30-10/6

Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> wrote:
> On Wed, 19 May 2021 18:53:28 -0400, knuttle <keith_nuttle@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
[...]

> >That is why I am dreading getting a new computer when my laptop dies.
> >It looks like the maximum storage capacity on most new computers is
> >512GB. I my current 1TB drive has nearly 300GB of data on it.
>
> It's beyond simple to swap a drive for a bigger one, especially on a
> laptop, so I wouldn't be too concerned about that.

That may be true for your laptop, which is probably a 'professional'
one, but these days, lower-priced 'consumer' laptops often have no
removable panel to get at the SSD/HDD (and often do not have easily
removable batteries either).

So this is a point to look out for: Can the SSD/HDD be *easily*
accessed and swapped.?

For example my current (HP) laptop needs to be nearly completely
disassembled to get at the HDD. 22 (3+10+5+3+1) screws, remove power
button cable, remove touch pad cables, remove the top cover, remove USB
board (another screw), now you have access to the HDD. For some this
might be "beyond simple", for some (many?) it's probably not.

In comparison, my wife's somewhat older (HP) laptop has a nice
removable panel (called the 'service cover') in the bottom, which can be
easily removed (only one screw), to access the HDD. (My two earlier
laptops had that as well, so I was surprised my current one doesn't have
it.)

> >I have a lot of pictures, genealogical document images, and a trail
> >camera. Do I access them all daily, NO! Have I accessed some very old
> >files in the last week? Yes! I know that I could put some of that on an
> >extennal drive, but that defeats the portablilty of a laptop. If I
> >wanted to be tied to a lot of periferals I would stay with desktop.
>
> Many/most modern laptops can accommodate at least two drives these days,
> and sometimes three, especially if they have m.2 slots, and that's not
> counting putting an SSD where the optical drive sits.
>
> I was using a company-provided Lenovo laptop until about a year ago. It had
> three m.2 slots and an (obsolete) optical drive that I could have swapped
> out for a full-size SSD, and with 1TB SSD prices dropping like a rock,
> storage was never an issue.

Note to self: For my next laptop, I will need to look at these issues.
I didn't realize that some (most?) laptops already went the same way as
phones and tablets, i.e. no (easy) user-replaceable parts. So I will
have to get their 'Maintenance and Service Guide' *before* buying.

knuttle <keith_nuttle@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
[...]
> That is why I am dreading getting a new computer when my laptop dies.
> It looks like the maximum storage capacity on most new computers is
> 512GB. I my current 1TB drive has nearly 300GB of data on it.
>
> I have a lot of pictures, genealogical document images, and a trail
> camera. Do I access them all daily, NO! Have I accessed some very old
> files in the last week? Yes! I know that I could put some of that on an
> extennal drive, but that defeats the portablilty of a laptop. If I
> wanted to be tied to a lot of periferals I would stay with desktop.

Others have already mentioned that there are laptops with bigger (than
512GB) SSDs or/and HDDs and that some of them allow the SSD or/and HDD
to be swapped for a bigger one or/and have space for an additional
SSD/HDD.

That said, I have another suggestion:

If you do need large storage and do not want to have a portable USB
HDD/SDD hanging ('dangling') off your laptop, but do not need all that
storage when you're mobile/out-and-about, you could consider adding a
NAS (Network Attached Storage) device to your setup.

You can connect the NAS to your router and access it as a Network
Share from your laptop via Wi-Fi (i.e. no cable on your laptop). A NAS
also allows you to make backup easier, often automatic and unattended.

An entry-level NAS can be quite powerful and not that expensive. For
example mine - a Synology DS115j with a 4TB WD Red disk - was some USD
250 (probably cheaper now).

Hope this helps.

In article <s86503.5jg.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>, Frank Slootweg
<this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

> If you do need large storage and do not want to have a portable USB
> HDD/SDD hanging ('dangling') off your laptop, but do not need all that
> storage when you're mobile/out-and-about, you could consider adding a
> NAS (Network Attached Storage) device to your setup.
>
> You can connect the NAS to your router and access it as a Network
> Share from your laptop via Wi-Fi (i.e. no cable on your laptop). A NAS
> also allows you to make backup easier, often automatic and unattended.

a nas is an excellent idea.

some also support vpn so it can be accessed remotely.

> An entry-level NAS can be quite powerful and not that expensive. For
> example mine - a Synology DS115j with a 4TB WD Red disk - was some USD
> 250 (probably cheaper now).

that's an entry level model that is now 6 years old (last two digits
are model year), which has been replaced by the 120j.

if cost is an issue, another option is to repurpose an old computer
into a server. it won't do as much as a synology or as easily, but it's
'free' since you already have the hardware.

nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <s86503.5jg.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>, Frank Slootweg
> <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
[...]

> > An entry-level NAS can be quite powerful and not that expensive. For
> > example mine - a Synology DS115j with a 4TB WD Red disk - was some USD
> > 250 (probably cheaper now).
>
> that's an entry level model that is now 6 years old (last two digits
> are model year), which has been replaced by the 120j.

Thanks for that info. I indeed purchased mine 3 years and 8 months
ago. Time flies when you're having fun! :-)

[...]

On 5/19/21 4:23 PM, Paul wrote:
> Snowshed. wrote:
>> On 5/19/21 3:24 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
>>> I'm volunteering at a nearby facility helping people even older than I am
>>> with computers in general where I'm astounded the biggest problem almost
>>> everyone (who has problems) has is in ORGANIZATION.
>>>
>>> To get a better handle on the solution all I'd like to ask in this
>>> thread is
>>> what's the one thing you do that you find helps the most for your
>>> organization of your computer?
>>>
>>> What do you do on Windows that aids most in your computer organization?
>>> Regards,
>>> Martin Brown
>>
>> In general, I try to explain the parts of a system using an analogy to
>> something in their lives.
>
> We used to do that, back in marketing days.
>
> That was desktop paradigm marketing.
>
> You don't have to do that as part of the
> rote learning process for using a computer.

The rote learning process is not learning, because there is no
understanding of what is happening. It's a memorization exercise.

> What you should be teaching a student, is
> enough mechanical detail to get minimal amounts
> of stuff done. For example, you have to separate
> procedural launch from object oriented launch, and
> taylor your presentation so that you aren't presenting
> both topics at the same time.
>
> "Start, Open a Program, Open a File" <=== procedural order
>
> "File manager, double click opens file and application" <=== object oriented
>
> The first method, always delivers a result. The second, does not.

Maybe not, for the first, if the actual procedure changes.

> You have to teach way too much arcane material about
> File Manager, to make double-clicking in there a topic
> of consideration (as "the first lesson").

I've never shown anyone how to launch a program from File Manager.

> The student may notice, while you put on live demos
> of computer usage, how you use the stuff, but, without
> a lot of clever fishing stories. We're not trying to
> make a computer sale here, or prove how the Apple approach
> is superior to the Windows approach. You can, for example,
> casually drop a file into the Trash, then only expand
> on what just happened, if a student asks.

If you aren't going to teach what just happened, then why bother?

> Lots of things we do, made sense in simpler times, today
> they no longer make sense. For example, how do you bind
> a file type to an application for File Manager usage ?
> It's a royal bitch, and the instructor is unlikely
> to give a successful demo, without a lot of backtracking,
> humming and hawing. Any procedure Windows has dreamed up
> that is impossibly complex, is not a candidate for entry-level
> learning. This ties our hands in so many ways, and
> your job is as much "teaching survival skills" as anything
> else.

I don't bother with this, either.

> for example, a separate section should be devoted to
> "where did my file go?". And guess what, Windows by
> itself, can't help the student find their fucking file.
> It's Agent Ransack time! Terrible. Terrible messaging.
> Terrible lesson design. Bad all round. But, the survival
> skill must be taught, or else. Federated Search does
> absolutely nothing for the novice student. Only Vista
> had the "try harder" search option which resorted to
> an Agent Ransack style search. Now, that was clever.
> I really liked that feature.

I've never found the Windows Search to be of much use. Personally, I
find the Mac search to be a lot better.

> I would teach Agent Ransack, as a part of teaching
> students what we mean by "brute force". That "brute force"
> gets results, but it not very efficient, and is slow.
> We can thank the gluttony of Windows, for forcing a
> brute force search to go through WinSXS a zillion times
> for no reason. Certainly another style of file organization
> would be in order, but the student we are teaching,
> has to be ready to use the most horribly prepared
> PC (like that machine at the Public Library).

Someday, I need to try Agent Ransack, as well as...... is it Find
Everything?

> *******
>
> We order our work like this, so *Others* can find stuff.
> Not for ourselves.
>
> C:
> FamilyMatters
> BirthdayPlan
> birthday.docx
> birthday.jpg
>
> For ourselves, we use whatever makes sense to us. But
> at the peril that if we die, Uncle Vinny has to be
> able to traverse the drive and find the LastWillAndTestament.
>
> You can teach this as "a solution", you can teach the
> value of it, but don't really expect students to
> follow this advice, until they have a "where did my
> file go?" experience.

The same perspective applies to trying to get someone to actually set up
a backup system.

> I worked with a guy, if you looked in his directory, it
> would have this as elements. This is what happens
> when individuals are too smart for their own good.
>
> New Folder
> New File.txt
> Copy of New File.txt
> New Folder2
> ...
>
> And, he could unerringly locate content in that mess!
> And guess what his business card said. "CPU Architect"!
> That's what he did for us.

I have a sister that is worse. She puts stuff in folders only about
half the time.

> Now, Lord knows I tried to instill some sense of order
> into that guy, for nothing. And that's all part of me
> learning what works and what doesn't work. Only if
> a student is willing to recant their chosen org plan,
> will you make any progress.
>
> You could have predicted that outcome though, if you
> knew the guys work experience and life experience.
> He didn't have a "personal computer" background. He
> worked on a team designing mainframes. That's a
> mostly flat 191 and 192. I don't think anyone
> taught him how to use a personal computer. It was
> all acquired by just trying stuff. You can see
> what a result we got. His Chess Master brain
> could "see through" any amount of naming obfuscation.

What is 191 and 192?

> He would tell me "my system work!" with that shit eating
> grin of his, and well, I could not argue with that. Didn't
> do the rest of us much good.

--
Ken
MacOS 10.14.6
Windows 10 20H2
Firefox 87.0
Thunderbird 60.9.1
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

Snowshed. wrote:

> What is 191 and 192?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CMS_file_system

"For example:

ACCESS 191 A

would access the virtual disk assigned to this
user as unit "191" (virtual channel and unit address)
as minidisk "A".
"

These were part of virtualized disk storage.
It's possible 40 cylinders was 30MB worth of storage.
(Living in luxury.)

Other commands included stuff like

SWAP A B

to make your second virtual storage unit,
the default one to receive files. While the above article
mentions 10 drive letters, we only used A and B.

We're certainly spoiled by storage today, compared to that.

Paul

On Thu, 20 May 2021 14:35:45 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

>On Wed, 19 May 2021 at 19:52:34, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> wrote
>(my responses usually follow points raised):
>[]
>>It's beyond simple to swap a drive for a bigger one, especially on a
>
>In a desktop machine, I'd agree (mechanically, at least; if it's the one
>that includes C: [and any hidden partitions], _not_ that trivial).

I was speaking of my own experience, of course. I haven't seen every laptop
ever made. On my 4 laptops, (2 Dell, 1 HP, 1 Lenovo that I no longer have),
it takes 3-5 minutes to swap a disk drive, or half that time to do
something with the RAM. I'm learning that not all laptops are that easy to
work on.

On my laptops and desktop here, I can probably swap drives twice, or even 3
times, on one of the laptops in the time it would take to swap a drive on
the desktop. That's an example of one, though.

As for upgrading C:, it's a simple 2-step process. Clone it, then swap it.
You can adjust the partition(s) later, if necessary. If a person is messing
around with trying to decide which partitions should be included, or how to
make the new drive bootable, then they've done it wrong.

>>laptop, so I wouldn't be too concerned about that.
>
>Laptop, depends on case design. Some do have a disc-drive-sized flap
>that can be unscrewed, which does make things fairly easy (mechanically;
>sorting out the data transfer, less so).

What is the mystery surrounding the data transfer? I don't see any issues
there. Perhaps you're referring to a scenario where the new drive is
smaller than the old drive, so a decision has to be made on what to keep.
That's probably an unusual scenario.

>Some, however, do not, meaning
>you have to remove the entire bottom cover - which while not _that_
>difficult, I certainly wouldn't describe as "beyond simple" - you have
>to _find_ where all the screws are for a start, and some can be inside
>the battery compartment, or even under the keyboard.
>
>If anything, I'd say _more_ are of this type (one-piece bottom shell),
>with the advent of SSDs.

I haven't seen that type of laptop construction, personally. Frank
mentioned it, too. It's unfortunate that laptop makers would build them
that way, sort of along the lines of a tablet that users aren't expected to
open.

>[]
>>Many/most modern laptops can accommodate at least two drives these days,
>
>I think we're probably operating at different parts of the price curve,

I was talking about what they can accommodate physically. The cost is a
separate discussion.

>>and sometimes three, especially if they have m.2 slots, and that's not
>>counting putting an SSD where the optical drive sits.
>
>, and different concepts of what's acceptable (especially if we're
>talking of talking to newbies).
>[]

Not sure what that refers to.

On 19/05/2021 19.37, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> On Wed, 19 May 2021 at 08:10:42, Teddy-Bears <Bears@invalid.com> wrote

....

>> I would suggest showing them how to move a file from folder A to B.
>
> Try to get a feel as early as possible which students have difficulty
> with the mouse (especially trackpads on laptops). Ideally, have a lesson
> or two playing with them - that's what patience/solitaire is _there_
> for; just if they'd called them "mouse training aids" rather than
> "games", nobody would use them. If some just do not manage with the
> mouse, be prepared to teach them the menu methods - tab into the
> right-hand pane, up/down to get to the file in question, Alt-E to bring
> up edit, cut/copy/paste. (No, that isn't complicated, it just sounds it
> to describe, like walking.) Moving a file from A to B with the mouse is
> terrifying for the beginner, if they drop it into a rack of folders and
> aren't sure which one it fell into - especially if the rack "helpfully"
> expands just as you drop. (I haven't - since XP! - found a way of
> stopping that "helpfulness" - anyone?)

I has happened to me enough times to stop me draging files with the
mouse. Specially with some mice or trackpads.

So instead I select the files, then do ctrl-c / ctrl-v, or ctrl-c /
ctrl-v, or suitable context menu to copy/move files, or use an orthodox
file manager.

>
>> The one thing that drives me crazy about my wife is that somehow she
>> learned that all downloaded material stays there.  So the old cleanup
>> routines that used to maybe opt for cleaning the Download folder hurt
>> her.   I still can't explain that you download an item and then move
>> it to where you think it should go.  If it's a Paypal statement, you
>
> (Is it only downloads? I suspect she doesn't do much moving at all,
> except when you're watching!)
>
>> should have a Finance / statements folder in Documents maybe and you
>> move it there if you want it, or after use, delete it.
>>
>> Deleting no longer used files is another habit to teach.  It isn't
>> hard to hit del if you don't need it any more.
>>
> Though there's always the fear of accidentally deleting something you
> want; stories of hours/days/weeks of work being deleted by mistake have
> been with us since computers started to be common, unfortunately (and
> with reason, sadly).
>>

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.