Wolf Greenblatt <wolf@greenblatt.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 10:50:24 -0500, micky wrote:
>
>>> What "real emergency" do you envisage where the *ONLY* source of
>>> information on your smartphone is the FM radio?
>>
>> I actually had one. I was coming back from Pennsyslvania on election
>> day night in 2016 and I wanted to hear election results. I was on a bus
>> with other volunteers, so there was no dashboard radio I could turn on,
>> or hear. I had my phone and my wired earbuds and they worked pretty
>> well even when I got out of range of one station and into another.
>
> It's not that it's the only source of information,

At the point where FM is important it will be. Given the multitude of ways
to get information using a smartphone the point at which an FM radio is
useful is only when all others have failed.

In that emergency scenario I suspect there are much more immediate problems
that need solving than catching up with the news.

> but that it's a source
> of information, just like a flashlight is a source of light and just like a
> smart watch is a source of medical information and just like a loaf of
> bread is a source of food and just like a blanket is a source of warmth.
>
> Anyone arguing to not have them when you could use them is going to have to
> claim they provide no benefits at all during an emergency situation.
>
> It's safer with the radio than it is without the radio, and anyone who says
> otherwise has to claim that a radio provides no useful information at all.

How is it safer?

In comp.mobile.android, on Mon, 20 Nov 2023 08:06:16 -0000 (UTC), Chris
<ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:

>Wolf Greenblatt <wolf@greenblatt.net> wrote:
>> On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 10:50:24 -0500, micky wrote:
>>
>>>> What "real emergency" do you envisage where the *ONLY* source of
>>>> information on your smartphone is the FM radio?
>>>
>>> I actually had one. I was coming back from Pennsyslvania on election
>>> day night in 2016 and I wanted to hear election results. I was on a bus
>>> with other volunteers, so there was no dashboard radio I could turn on,
>>> or hear. I had my phone and my wired earbuds and they worked pretty
>>> well even when I got out of range of one station and into another.
>>
>> It's not that it's the only source of information,
>
>At the point where FM is important it will be. Given the multitude of ways
>to get information using a smartphone the point at which an FM radio is
>useful is only when all others have failed.

And that could happen. As a result of Hurricane Sandy?, cell phone
service in lower Manhattan failed and I presume that includes cellular
data. What still worked were landline and, I presume, radio.

>In that emergency scenario I suspect there are much more immediate problems
>that need solving than catching up with the news.

In that emergency scenario, most or all of the news will be about how to
remediate those very emergency immediate problems,
>
>> but that it's a source
>> of information, just like a flashlight is a source of light and just like a
>> smart watch is a source of medical information and just like a loaf of
>> bread is a source of food and just like a blanket is a source of warmth.
>>
>> Anyone arguing to not have them when you could use them is going to have to
>> claim they provide no benefits at all during an emergency situation.
>>
>> It's safer with the radio than it is without the radio, and anyone who says
>> otherwise has to claim that a radio provides no useful information at all.
>
>How is it safer?
>
>

micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
> In comp.mobile.android, on Mon, 20 Nov 2023 08:06:16 -0000 (UTC), Chris
> <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Wolf Greenblatt <wolf@greenblatt.net> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 10:50:24 -0500, micky wrote:
>>>
>>>>> What "real emergency" do you envisage where the *ONLY* source of
>>>>> information on your smartphone is the FM radio?
>>>>
>>>> I actually had one. I was coming back from Pennsyslvania on election
>>>> day night in 2016 and I wanted to hear election results. I was on a bus
>>>> with other volunteers, so there was no dashboard radio I could turn on,
>>>> or hear. I had my phone and my wired earbuds and they worked pretty
>>>> well even when I got out of range of one station and into another.
>>>
>>> It's not that it's the only source of information,
>>
>> At the point where FM is important it will be. Given the multitude of ways
>> to get information using a smartphone the point at which an FM radio is
>> useful is only when all others have failed.
>
> And that could happen. As a result of Hurricane Sandy?, cell phone
> service in lower Manhattan failed and I presume that includes cellular
> data. What still worked were landline and, I presume, radio.

Why do you presume? If the cellular network was knocked out - power
failure? Tower damage? - then it's likely local radio would have been as
well.

>> In that emergency scenario I suspect there are much more immediate problems
>> that need solving than catching up with the news.
>
> In that emergency scenario, most or all of the news will be about how to
> remediate those very emergency immediate problems,

If there's flood waters rushing into your house you're not going to be
trying to tune the radio to find out what to do. Or are you?

On 2023-11-20 07:51, micky wrote:
> In comp.mobile.android, on Mon, 20 Nov 2023 08:06:16 -0000 (UTC), Chris
> <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Wolf Greenblatt <wolf@greenblatt.net> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 10:50:24 -0500, micky wrote:
>>>
>>>>> What "real emergency" do you envisage where the *ONLY* source of
>>>>> information on your smartphone is the FM radio?
>>>>
>>>> I actually had one. I was coming back from Pennsyslvania on election
>>>> day night in 2016 and I wanted to hear election results. I was on a bus
>>>> with other volunteers, so there was no dashboard radio I could turn on,
>>>> or hear. I had my phone and my wired earbuds and they worked pretty
>>>> well even when I got out of range of one station and into another.
>>>
>>> It's not that it's the only source of information,
>>
>> At the point where FM is important it will be. Given the multitude of ways
>> to get information using a smartphone the point at which an FM radio is
>> useful is only when all others have failed.
>
> And that could happen. As a result of Hurricane Sandy?, cell phone
> service in lower Manhattan failed and I presume that includes cellular
> data. What still worked were landline and, I presume, radio.

So you just "presume" that, huh?

On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 08:06:16 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:

> At the point where FM is important it will be. Given the multitude of ways
> to get information using a smartphone the point at which an FM radio is
> useful is only when all others have failed.

If you're traveling, the "point when all the others have failed" happens
every day all day, but the fails don't matter when there's no emergency.

> In that emergency scenario I suspect there are much more immediate problems
> that need solving than catching up with the news.

You seem to be making excuses after excuses for the lack of the FM radio in
your phone while many other phones have the FM radio for very good reasons.

In a situation where you need important info, it will be on the FM radio.

>> but that it's a source
>> of information, just like a flashlight is a source of light and just like a
>> smart watch is a source of medical information and just like a loaf of
>> bread is a source of food and just like a blanket is a source of warmth.
>>
>> Anyone arguing to not have them when you could use them is going to have to
>> claim they provide no benefits at all during an emergency situation.
>>
>> It's safer with the radio than it is without the radio, and anyone who says
>> otherwise has to claim that a radio provides no useful information at all.
>
> How is it safer?

If your argument is FM radio serves no useful purpose then just say so.

Otherwise agree it's useful to have FM radio in a phone, especially in
emergencies, as they don't spend all that money broadcasting to nobody.

On 11/20/2023 7:51 AM, micky wrote:

> And that could happen. As a result of Hurricane Sandy?, cell phone
> service in lower Manhattan failed and I presume that includes cellular
> data. What still worked were landline and, I presume, radio.

Yes, in some cases a battery powered radio is necessary. But it doesn't
have to be part of a mobile phone.

If you look at GSM Arena, you'll see that very few phones sold in any
volume still have an FM Radio. It's not nearly 50%.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 19:41:16 -0400, Wally J wrote:
> And given nobody sensible would claim an FM radio isn't an important safety
> feature in a phone during an emergency...
> My role is to provide the facts, and to confront the morons who only know
> the fantastically unbelievable bullshit that Apple MARKETING has fed them.

No. The way you put this into context, that's not science or research,
that's propaganda.

Wolf Greenblatt <wolf@greenblatt.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 08:06:16 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
>
>> At the point where FM is important it will be. Given the multitude of ways
>> to get information using a smartphone the point at which an FM radio is
>> useful is only when all others have failed.
>
> If you're traveling, the "point when all the others have failed" happens
> every day all day,

It does? I travel including abroad and I don't see this.

> but the fails don't matter when there's no emergency.
>
>> In that emergency scenario I suspect there are much more immediate problems
>> that need solving than catching up with the news.
>
> You seem to be making excuses after excuses for the lack of the FM radio in
> your phone while many other phones have the FM radio for very good reasons.

Not excuses. Trying to work out what emergency scenario is aided by an FM
radio.

> In a situation where you need important info, it will be on the FM radio.

I argue that it likely isn't any more so than a digital source.

>>> but that it's a source
>>> of information, just like a flashlight is a source of light and just like a
>>> smart watch is a source of medical information and just like a loaf of
>>> bread is a source of food and just like a blanket is a source of warmth.
>>>
>>> Anyone arguing to not have them when you could use them is going to have to
>>> claim they provide no benefits at all during an emergency situation.
>>>
>>> It's safer with the radio than it is without the radio, and anyone who says
>>> otherwise has to claim that a radio provides no useful information at all.
>>
>> How is it safer?
>
> If your argument is FM radio serves no useful purpose then just say so.

Can you answer the question?

> Otherwise agree it's useful to have FM radio in a phone, especially in
> emergencies, as they don't spend all that money broadcasting to nobody.
>

On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 08:05:31 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:

>>> How is it safer?
>>
>> If your argument is FM radio serves no useful purpose then just say so.
>
> Can you answer the question?

Of course it's safer. If you don't know that, then you have no right to ask
the question as having information is always better than not having it.

Secondly, your excuse that cellular Internet is everywhere is just absurd.
What you're really doing is making excuses for YOU not wanting information.

Maybe you don't want any information in an emergency situation.
But plenty of people do.
Information when there is no Internet is what the FM radio can do for them.

If you and they are in an area without Internet (which is very common, and
which is even more common in an emergency situation), then they'll have
that emergency information and you will be stuck begging them for it.

I'm done with you because your arguments are ridiculous that Internet is
everywhere and that FM radio supplies no information that you care about.

You are just making up excuses for you not wanting info everyone else does.

Wally, could you do those of us using newsreaders on small devices a
favour and make all your subject lines shorter, so they're comprehensible
when truncated?

'As of November 2023' is superfluous.
'Android models' > Androids
'Portable memory slot' - SD card?

TIA
Dave
--
(Remove numerics from email address)

Dave Royal wrote:

> could you do those of us using newsreaders on small devices a favour
> and make all your subject lines shorter, so they're comprehensible
> when truncated?

Even full-screen on a 2880x1800 monitor, it is close to overflowing in
my preferred thunderbird view (with headers collapsed)

Wolf Greenblatt <wolf@greenblatt.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 08:05:31 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
>
>>>> How is it safer?
>>>
>>> If your argument is FM radio serves no useful purpose then just say so.
>>
>> Can you answer the question?
>
> Of course it's safer.

If it's obvious you could give an example. Yet you haven't.

> If you don't know that, then you have no right to ask
> the question as having information is always better than not having it.

What kind of information from an FM source is useful in an emergency? This
evening's weather forecast might help a bit but it won't improve your
situation.

> Secondly, your excuse that cellular Internet is everywhere is just absurd.
> What you're really doing is making excuses for YOU not wanting information.
>
> Maybe you don't want any information in an emergency situation.
> But plenty of people do.
> Information when there is no Internet is what the FM radio can do for them.

OK. Let's try a scenario. You're driving in a very remote area and have a
serious accident. There's no internet nor mobile signal. How does an FM
radio help?

Or, you're on a small boat as part of a crew and the engine cuts out. A
storm is heading your way. You have an FM radio on your phone, but can't
find your headphones. What do you do next?

Let's try a natural disaster. You're in a remote village in the Scottish
highlands. A winter storm has blown down a huge number of trees. Roads are
blocked, power lines are down, there's no landline and mobile signal is
only available 1km away at best. It's been like this for three days with no
prospect of change any time soon. A true story.

You need water, food, heating and batteries for an FM radio. Which is your
priority?

> If you and they are in an area without Internet (which is very common, and
> which is even more common in an emergency situation), then they'll have
> that emergency information and you will be stuck begging them for it.

Such as?

> I'm done with you because your arguments are ridiculous that Internet is
> everywhere and that FM radio supplies no information that you care about.

You could engage with the argument rather than target me.

> You are just making up excuses for you not wanting info everyone else does.

Name one "excuse".

On 11/21/2023 1:56 AM, Dave Royal wrote:

> Wally, could you do those of us using newsreaders on small devices a
> favour and make all your subject lines shorter, so they're
> comprehensible when truncated?

If your small device (phone?) is Android, give the newsreader PhoNews a
try. It reads the lines well no matter the length and whether your
device is situated in portrait or landscape mode. PhoNews does have
warts though, one of which is that it will post to only one group - the
one you're reading (no cross-posting). But if that is a problem for you,
you could always switch to your regular newsreader just for posting...

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote

>> could you do those of us using newsreaders on small devices a favour
>> and make all your subject lines shorter, so they're comprehensible
>> when truncated?
>
> Even full-screen on a 2880x1800 monitor, it is close to overflowing in
> my preferred thunderbird view (with headers collapsed)

Thanks for letting me know, as my "preferred newsreader" is the vim editor
(as I don't use a newsreader since I do everything via batch files).

However, to explain... I was taught to document using long titles.
My Subject is long for the same reason scientific paper titles are long.

So they can be found in a title search on an automated web archive, e.g.,
<http://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android>

It's not worth doing all the immense efforts I do in any given thread to
document things (URLs, facts, APKs, screenshots, etc.) unless leveraged.

However, I can make titles shorter if that's what people want.
How many characters do you prefer?
--
It's not worth spending an hour per thread unless results are leveraged.

Dave Royal <dave@dave123royal.com> wrote

> Wally, could you do those of us using newsreaders on small devices a
> favour and make all your subject lines shorter, so they're comprehensible
> when truncated?

Thank you for bringing up your concerns about reading on small displays.
How many max characters do you prefer?

BTW, I'm an old man, where I'm on something like a dozen forums, where
almost always the problem is people write titles which are too short, e.g.,
Help!
My phone is broken
Why doesn't anything work?
etc.

> 'As of November 2023' is superfluous.
> 'Android models' > Androids
> 'Portable memory slot' - SD card?

I don't do anything by accident... everything has a reason (even my pencils
are standing UP in the cup while the pens and markers are placed downward).

There are explicit reasons for each of those, which I'll bother to explain
since I can't blame you for not understanding the dynamics of these groups.

The title is long for multiple reasons:
a. Just as scientific paper titles are long, it's there for a good reason
b. And peculiar to Usenet, it's there to prevent derailing of the topic

Bear in mind, I am well aware people (especially the child-like iOS users)
will purposefully deflect any thread topic that covers facts they hate.
If you don't believe me - look at any post from nospam. These deflectors do
this inside the thread bodies but if the title explicitly contains key
elements of the facts that are being proposed for discussion, it's harder
for them to derail a thread by their brazen denials & whataboutism tactics.

1. 'As of November 2023' is there because the iKooks mostly, but there are
other naysayers, will claim that the data is old - and when we run a
search, it will be later so the numbers will change over time. So it
nails down the date (if you don't believe me, go to the Apple newsgroups
and watch how they squirm and deny all facts based on the date that the
DxoMark smartphone camera surveys were done). The date was explicitly
placed there to prevent the deniers from claiming cherry picking dates.

2. 'Android models' is there because the deniers will claim (like Steve
much later in this thread already did) that the statistics are
different for the Android phones sold versus the models offered.
While I agree with that assessment of fact, I have no data for the
number of Android phones sold - I only have the models offered.
You may note that people already denied this by claiming that I
used a time period of "forever" (which is wrong - they didn't even
read the thread) so I probably should have _added_ information,
such as the fact that it's from 2019 to 2023 and future models.

3. 'Portable memory slot' is there because the people who hate portable
memory always claim it's only for _expansion memory_ (which is
completely different than portable memory. It's not obvious to
almost everyone that there is a _huge difference_ between expansion
memory (which is rarely needed nowadays) and portable memory
(which has huge advantages that phones sans slots just can't do).

Note each and every one of things you thought were "superfluous" are there
simply because I'm extremely experienced in Usenet arguments where people
who want to deny facts always attack those facts like kindergarten children
attack each other.

In summary, I put the date there, and the fact that it's not units sold,
but models sold, and the fact that the sd card is unique when it's used for
portable memory to stave off the inevitable childish deniers.

We _still_ had Steve and Chris and others brazenly deny all the facts, but
we didn't have too many of those naysayers here because the child-like iOS
newsgroup was not included on this thread (they deny all that they hate).
--
In Usenet, you can't please everyone but you can at least understand their
concerns and address them at the same time fulfilling the strategic goals.

On 21 Nov 2023 12:07:50 -0400 Wally J wrote:
>
>
>
>Thanks for letting me know, as my "preferred newsreader" is the vim editor
>(as I don't use a newsreader since I do everything via batch files).
>
>However, to explain... I was taught to document using long titles.
>My Subject is long for the same reason scientific paper titles are long.
>
>So they can be found in a title search on an automated web archive, e.g.,
> <http://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android>
>
>It's not worth doing all the immense efforts I do in any given thread to
>document things (URLs, facts, APKs, screenshots, etc.) unless leveraged.
>
>However, I can make titles shorter if that's what people want.
>How many characters do you prefer?

I don't know what other people want. I think the subject should be as long
as it needs to be, but no longer. Take a critical look at it: is it
concise, can you delete words without losing anything important, or use
well-known (for the NG) abbreviations?

Be aware that mobile newsreaders may truncate the subject in the middle -
see screenshot of PiaoHong on a this 10" tablet. Mine does the same.

<https://www.cjoint.com/data/MKvqGGSDy5v_Screenshot-20231121-163021-NewsReader.jpg>
And I have a tablet; I don't know what it looks like on a phone. So don't
waste the first few words. It's like writing a good newspaper headline.

Just my view. If I don't know what it's about I don't bother to tap on it.
--
(Remove numerics from email address)

Wally J <walterjones@invalid.nospam> wrote:
> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote
>
>>> could you do those of us using newsreaders on small devices a favour
>>> and make all your subject lines shorter, so they're comprehensible
>>> when truncated?
>>
>> Even full-screen on a 2880x1800 monitor, it is close to overflowing in
>> my preferred thunderbird view (with headers collapsed)
>
> Thanks for letting me know, as my "preferred newsreader" is the vim editor
> (as I don't use a newsreader since I do everything via batch files).
>
> However, to explain... I was taught to document using long titles.
> My Subject is long for the same reason scientific paper titles are long.

Paper titles aren't long, they average 12.3 words.
https://blog.oup.com/2018/09/efficient-titles-research-articles/

Titles need to be succinct and meaningful. This thread's OP certainly
isn't.

> So they can be found in a title search on an automated web archive, e.g.,
> <http://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android>

Google searches much more than titles.

> It's not worth doing all the immense efforts I do in any given thread to
> document things (URLs, facts, APKs, screenshots, etc.) unless leveraged.
>
> However, I can make titles shorter if that's what people want.
> How many characters do you prefer?

10-12 words is the recommendation for papers. No reason why your posts
should be any longer than that.

Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote

>> However, to explain... I was taught to document using long titles.
>> My Subject is long for the same reason scientific paper titles are long.
>
> Paper titles aren't long, they average 12.3 words.
> https://blog.oup.com/2018/09/efficient-titles-research-articles/

Hi Chris,
That's interesting. Thanks for digging that up.

I am always logical and sensible because I base everything on facts
so, unlike the uneducated iKooks, I agree with anyone who makes sense.

I've also published scientific papers (I was only a contributing scientist
though - as it was during my graduate school research in my first field)
so I was taught by professors how to author peer-reviewed papers.

In keeping with always making sense...
1. I instantly agreed with Andy & Dave (& asked them for a line length)
2. I explained the reason for explicit titles was two-fold...
a. It's intended to be found with a typical keyword search, and,
b. It's intended to stave off the crazies (you know who they are).

> Titles need to be succinct and meaningful.
> This thread's OP certainly isn't.

Again, thanks for that critique of the thread title.

Bear in mind this is a Usenet thread, so while I always employ what I was
taught in graduate school (mostly for my first graduate degree), I didn't
spend years writing the thread title up so it's off the cuff (ad hoc).

Mainly the title is the way it is for two fundamental reasons given the
peculiar nature of a Usenet thread and the foibles of the search engine.
A. A "control F" in a keyword search easily jumps from title to title, &
B. To forestall the child-like cherry pickers (like Steve & nospam).

>> So they can be found in a title search on an automated web archive, e.g.,
>> <http://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android>
>
> Google searches much more than titles.

Thank you for letting me know that, where there are two Google engines:
1. Google search
2. Google Usenet search

They're completely different.

Remember, I _created_ these URLs (e.g., the tinyurl) and I worked with the
Google team long ago to _simplify_ the old-style URLs to the new style.

OLD:
<http://tinyurl.com/comp-mobile-android>
<http://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/comp.mobile.android>
NEW:
<http://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android>

Trust me - it's not easy to get in touch with a specific person in
Mountainview (if you haven't tried it - ask Andy Burns what it's like).

I spent many hours trying to help people like you and Andy and Dave _find_
articles that are posted on Usenet given that the "normal" google search
doesn't do a good job at all in finding articles based on keywords.

But once you find articles, the Google Usenet search engine doesn't have a
TITLE option so what you do is "control+F" and "F3" to skip to the next.

For _that_, you need the keyword in the title, Chris.

Remember, nothing I do is by accident.
Everything is well thought out and logical and sensible and defensible.

But you can't please everyone.
No matter how hard you may try.

>> It's not worth doing all the immense efforts I do in any given thread to
>> document things (URLs, facts, APKs, screenshots, etc.) unless leveraged.
>>
>> However, I can make titles shorter if that's what people want.
>> How many characters do you prefer?
>
> 10-12 words is the recommendation for papers. No reason why your posts
> should be any longer than that.

I'm OK with that suggestion as I'm eminently reasonable in all ways.
Everything I do is by design where you are the customer in many ways.

Thank you for adding value to the discussion where I'm always happy to
oblige any reasonable request as my goal is to be purposefully helpful.
--
On Usenet, you need to be reasonable and rational as many people aren't.

Dave Royal <dave@dave123royal.com> wrote

> I don't know what other people want. I think the subject should be as long
> as it needs to be, but no longer. Take a critical look at it: is it
> concise, can you delete words without losing anything important, or use
> well-known (for the NG) abbreviations?
>
> Be aware that mobile newsreaders may truncate the subject in the middle -
> see screenshot of PiaoHong on a this 10" tablet. Mine does the same.
>
> <https://www.cjoint.com/data/MKvqGGSDy5v_Screenshot-20231121-163021-NewsReader.jpg>
> And I have a tablet; I don't know what it looks like on a phone. So don't
> waste the first few words. It's like writing a good newspaper headline.
>
> Just my view. If I don't know what it's about I don't bother to tap on it.

Hi Dave,

Thanks for that information.

I'll always agree with a sensible point of view where you backed up your
point of view which I can't at all disagree with in any way (and thank you
for the examples as I read my news using telnet scripts on a huge monitor).

Mainly I have long titles for search reasons and to discourage the crazies
from overly deflecting the thread intent (e.g., look at nospam's content).

Bear in mind I didn't spend an hour on the title like I might with a
scientific paper's title - but in the words of Clemens (was it he?),
"If you want it shorter - that will take much longer to do."

In other words, I'll spend a bit more time honing the subject when it's one
of those threads (like this one is) which people _hate_ because they own an
imaginary belief system that things these hardware features are long gone.

These crazies fight tooth-and-nail to make all facts they hate go away.

Yet, the fact is, most Android models recently sold have these basic
features, and any phone without them, is crippled in terms of what it does.

There's _nothing_ a phone without them can do that a phone with them can't.
--
On Usenet, I'm a rarity in that I am always logical & sensible, & as such,
I will agree with anyone who makes sensible comments, no matter their nym.

Wally J wrote:

> I can make titles shorter if that's what people want.
> How many characters do you prefer?

Similar to line-lengths, 72? 79? I'm not going to be that picky, your
125 character subject did fit, but only just

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Wally J wrote:
>
> > I can make titles shorter if that's what people want.
> > How many characters do you prefer?
>
> Similar to line-lengths, 72? 79? I'm not going to be that picky, your
> 125 character subject did fit, but only just

If he's going to accomodate CUI (Character/'Console' UI) newsreaders
like slrn, tin, trn, etc., etc., then he should limit it to some 44
characters [1] or make it such that the first part is a lead-in to look
at the full 'Subject:' header.

[1] The rest of the 80 characters taken by other fields of information
(at least for tin).

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote

> Wally J wrote:
>
>> I can make titles shorter if that's what people want.
>> How many characters do you prefer?
>
> Similar to line-lengths, 72? 79? I'm not going to be that picky, your
> 125 character subject did fit, but only just

Did you ever notice that my posts have both wrapped lines and sometimes
long unwrapped lines (when there is a need for a long line in the post)?

As you are aware, I don't use a newsreader, per se, but VIM, which I can
set to "textwidth=80" so that might help (yes I saw Frank's post about 44).

Unfortunately 44 is probably too short to convey meaningful keywords and
still make up a meaningful Subject such as with a scientific paper.

Please bear in mind I don't write "Help me!" subjects, because I want the
subject to be a tool for future users to easily find my reference threads.

Given there are many thousands of thread topics (many are "Help me!")
a. The Subject needs to convey deep & specific details about the topic
(which means it will never be short)
b. As it has to be found easily in a title-only keyword search
Usually also using (Control f) combined with (F3) & (Shift + F3)
c. Yet, if morons are involved, it has to be resistant to deflection
(you know who they are)

With nospam taking a vacation, the number of naysaying posts recently has
_drastically decreased_ (which has improved the overall group S:N ratio).

But in the case of this thread, it was important to mention the date, and
the fact "models" were involved (not sales units) and the three results:
a. Three quarters of current Android models have the handy aux jack
(where "current" was defined as 2019 to 2023 but we could change that)
b. Almost 3/4ths have an sdslot (which is most useful as "portable memory")
c. Half have the FM radio chip enabled (which requires the aux jack)

Each is important in its own right - but mostly I had to preempt the
naysayers who claim, for example, that sd is only useful for expansion.

I had to preempt the whiners who complain that _their_ particular choice
doesn't have the FM radio (or worse, it has the radio but not the app).

I had to preload the negativists who want to cherry pick the starting and
stopping dates (which they're welcome to do since I provided the URLs).

So my point in explaining all that was there was a reason for the title
being what it was - but - at the same time I _agree_ with everyone who said
that they can't easily see it (yes, I looked at the graphics provided).

I'm always reasonable. Rational. Sensible, Andy.
But I also usually have more reasons for a title than most people think.

Which is why you need to know that (almost) nothing I do is by accident.
(Sure, I make "mistakes" but if I do something on Usenet - it's on purpose
as I have a goal that most people don't have when I post to Usenet).

A. Most people, I assess, post for amusement (as far as I can tell)
B. Many, of course, also post when they need help (as most of us do)
C. Some even offer to help others who post (which you do, for example)

But I'm a bit different... am I not?

If all I'm doing is helping one person, it's not even worth my time.
My posts are _designed_ to be references, for us now - and into the future.

They're designed to be found by others, which is why I'm happy when I run a
search on the main "google.com" search engine, my posts come up on top.

If you search for a variety of subjects, not only Android, but many other
subjects (e.g., BMW car repairs), you'll find my post the most referenced.

That doesn't happen by accident.
--
There are very few people who try to help everyone each time they help one.

Wally J wrote:

> Did you ever notice that my posts have both wrapped lines and sometimes
> long unwrapped lines (when there is a need for a long line in the post)?

Never noticed, if you use a text editor, do you put format=flowed in
your headers?

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote

>> Did you ever notice that my posts have both wrapped lines and sometimes
>> long unwrapped lines (when there is a need for a long line in the post)?
>
> Never noticed, if you use a text editor, do you put format=flowed in
> your headers?

Hi Andy,

Good question. Very good question indeed.
My headers are so random that I don't even know the answer to that question.

Worse...

I openly admit I really know absolutely nothing about format=flowed,
so if you have advice that I can learn from, please explain it to me.

What I do know is each header is random, from a dictionary lookup which
itself is random except when a thread is started (then it remains).

For given newsgroups, I can control the header by newsgroup or by topic
where each complete header was culled from existing headers from prior
articles in specific newsgroup at the time of the initial creation of
the header dictionary file. As such, "some" certainly have "format=flowed",
while others certainly won't have that. It's completely random.

But I have never even once thought about the answer to your question.
Until now.

My "best" answer is "format=flowed" is random, not on purpose, but
because the entire header is random - so if it was there, it's there.

If not. It's not.

For example, here's a tiny snippet of the random header dictionary file...
(where I am allowing long lines for this specific vignette of course)

MIME-Version = 1.0' & 'Content-Type: text/plain charset=ISO-8859-1 format=flowed' & 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit' & 'User-Agent: NewsTap/4.0.1 (iPad)' %
MIME-Version = 1.0' & 'Content-Type: text/plain charset=ISO-8859-1 format=flowed' & 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit' & 'User-Agent: NewsTap/5.2.1 (iPhone/iPod Touch)'%
MIME-Version = 1.0' & 'Content-Type: text/plain charset=UTF-8' & 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable' & 'User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh Intel Mac OS X 10.10 rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.1'%
MIME-Version = 1.0' & 'Content-Type: text/plain charset=UTF-8' %
Mime-Version = 1.0' & 'Content-Type: text/plain charset="iso-8859-1"' & 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit' %
Mime-Version = 1.0' & 'Content-Type: text/plain charset="iso-8859-15"' & 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit' %
Mime-Version = 1.0' & 'Content-Type: text/plain charset="us-ascii"' & 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit'%
Mime-Version = 1.0' & 'Content-Type: text/plain charset=ISO-8859-1 format=fixed' & 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit'%
Mime-Version = 1.0' & 'Content-Type: text/plain charset=UTF-8' & 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit'%
Mime-Version = 1.0' & 'Content-Type: text/plain charset=us-ascii' & 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit'%
Mime-Version = 1.0' & 'Content-Type: text/plain charset=utf-8 format=flowed' & 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit' & 'X-Mozilla-News-Host: snews://newsipv6.altopia.com:563' 'User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0 WOW64 rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.0a2' & 'Content-Language: en-US'%
Mime-Version = 1.0' & 'Content-Type: text/plain charset=windows-1252 format=flowed' & 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit'%
Mime-Version = 1.0' & 'Content-Type: text/plain format=flowed charset="UTF-8" reply-type=original' & 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit' & 'X-Priority: 3' & 'X-MSMail-Priority: Normal' & 'X-Newsreader: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6001.18416' & 'X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18645'%
Mime-Version = 1.0' & 'Content-Type: text/plain format=flowed charset="iso-8859-1" reply-type=original' & 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit' & 'User-Agent: NewsTap/5.2.1 (iPhone/iPod Touch)' %
User-Agent = ForteAgent/8.00.32.1272' & 'Mime-Version: 1.0' & 'Content-Type: text/plain charset=ISO-8859-1' & 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit' %
User-Agent = G2/1.0' & 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable' & 'Content-Type: text/plain format=flowed charset="ISO-2022-JP"'%
User-Agent = Hogwasher/5.18' & 'Mime-Version: 1.0' & 'Content-Type: text/plain charset=utf-8' & 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit'%
User-Agent = MacSOUP/2.8.6b1 (ed136d9b90) (Mac OS 10.12.3)' & 'Mime-Version: 1.0' & 'Content-Type: text/plain charset=ISO-8859-1' & 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit' %
User-Agent = MicroPlanet-Gravity/3.0.4' %
User-Agent = Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh Intel Mac OS X 10.10 rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.1' %
User-Agent = Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh Intel Mac OS X 10.13 rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0' & 'Mime-Version: 1.0' & 'Content-Type: text/plain charset=utf-8 format=flowed' & 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit'%
User-Agent = Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh Intel Mac OS X 10.13 rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0' & 'MIME-Version: 1.0' & 'Content-Type: text/plain charset=utf-8 format=flowed' & 'Content-Language: en-GB' & 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit'%
User-Agent = Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0 WOW64 rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.6.0' %
User-Agent = Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1 rv:43.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/43.0 SeaMonkey/2.40'%
User-Agent = Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1 WOW64 rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2' & 'Mime-Version: 1.0' & 'Content-Type: text/plain charset=utf-8 format=flowed' & 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit' %
User-Agent = Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1 rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1' & 'MIME-Version: 1.0' & 'Content-Type: text/plain charset=windows-1252 format=flowed' & 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit' %
User-Agent = Mozilla/5.0 (X11 Linux x86_64 rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/45.5.1' & 'Content-Type: text/plain charset="US-ASCII"' & 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit' %
User-Agent = Mozilla/5.0 (X11 Linux x86_64 rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/45.5.1' %
User-Agent = Mozilla/5.0 (X11 Linux x86_64 rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2' & 'MIME-Version: 1.0' & 'Content-Type: text/plain charset=utf-8 format=flowed' & 'Content-Language: en-US' & 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit' %
User-Agent = NewsTap/3.2 (iPad)' & 'Mime-Version: 1.0' & 'Content-Type: text/plain charset=UTF-8' & 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit'%
User-Agent = NewsTap/4.0.1 (iPad)' %
User-Agent = NewsTap/5.2.1 (iPhone/iPod Touch)' %
User-Agent = Ratcatcher/2.0.0.25 (Windows/20130802)' %
User-Agent = Snitbuster (Multics version)'%
User-Agent = Thoth/1.9.0 (Mac OS X)' %
User-Agent = User-Agent: Thoth/1.9.0 (Mac OS X)' & 'Mime-Version: 1.0' & 'Content-Type: text/plain charset=ISO-8859-1' & 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit' %
User-Agent = XPN/1.2.6 (Street Spirit Linux)' & 'Mime-Version: 1.0' & 'Content-Type: text/plain charset=US-ASCII' & 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit' %
User-Agent = Xnews/2006.08.24' %
User-Agent = Xnews/2009.05.01 Mime-proxy/2.0.c.1 (Win32)' & 'Mime-Version: 1.0' & 'Content-Type: text/plain charset=us-ascii' & 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit'%
User-Agent = Xnews/??.01.30'%
User-Agent = flnews/0.14 (for AIX)' %
User-Agent = flnews/0.14 (for GNU/Linux)'%
User-Agent = slrn/0.9.8.1 (FreeBSD)'%
User-Agent = slrn/1.0.2 (Darwin)'%
User-Agent = slrn/1.0.2 (Linux)' %
User-Agent = tin/1.4.5-20010409 ("One More Nightmare") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.10 (i86pc))'%
User-Agent = tin/1.6.2-20030910 ("Pabbay") (UNIX) (CYGWIN_NT-6.3-WOW/2.8.0(0.309/5/3) (i686)) Hamster/2.0.2.2' %
User-Agent = tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (Linux/4.9.0-0.bpo.5-amd64 (x86_64))' %
User-Agent = tin/2.2.1-20140504 ("Tober an Righ") (UNIX) (Linux/3.16.0-4-amd64 (x86_64))' %
User-Agent = tin/2.4.0-20160823 ("Octomore") (UNIX) (Linux/4.7.9-100.fc23.x86_64 (x86_64))' %
User-Agent = tin/2.4.1-20161224 ("Daill") (UNIX) (OpenBSD/6.1 (amd64))' %
X-Antivirus = avast! (VPS 170105-0, 01/05/2017), Outbound message' & 'X-Antivirus-Status: Clean'%
X-Comment = As always, YMMV' %
X-Newsreader = Forte Agent 1.91/32.564' %
X-Newsreader = Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American)' & 'Content-Type: text/plain format=flowed charset="ISO-2022-JP"'%
X-Newsreader = Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American)'%
X-Newsreader = Forte Agent 3.0/32.763' %
X-Newsreader = Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118' & 'MIME-Version: 1.0' & 'Content-Type: text/plain charset=us-ascii' & 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit' & 'X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com' & 'X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.' & 'Organization: Forte - www.forteinc.com'%
X-Newsreader = Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118' & 'MIME-Version: 1.0' & 'Content-Type: text/plain charset=us-ascii' & 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit'%
X-Newsreader = Forte Agent 5.00/32.1171' & 'MIME-Version: 1.0' & 'Content-Type: text/plain charset=us-ascii' & 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit' & 'X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 170216-1, 02/16/2017), Outbound message' & 'X-Antivirus-Status: Clean'%
X-Newsreader = Forte Agent 6.00/32.1186'%
X-Newsreader = Forte Agent 6.00/32.1186' %
X-Newsreader = Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3664' & 'X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3664' & 'X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed Original' & 'X-MSMail-Priority: Normal' & 'X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.8.2' & 'X-Priority: 3'%
X-Newsreader = Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512' & 'InjectionInfo: reader02.eternal-september.org posting-host="fc3d35c6f45a04dbe5abd8b7a0bb6c5f" logging-data="24516" mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org" posting-account="U2BsdDVkX17yDAHpP19T3fhCWe6u79BaMEWT4QFqL/c="' & 'X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512' & 'X-MSMail-Priority: Normal' & 'X-Priority: 3'%
X-Newsreader = Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512' & 'X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512'%
X-Newsreader = Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.1830'%
X-Newsreader = PMINews 2.00.1205 For OS/2'%
X-Newsreader = PiaoHong.Usenet.Client.Free:1.65' & 'Mime-Version: 1.0' & 'Content-Type: text/plain charset=UTF-8' & 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit'%
etc.

Wally J wrote:

> What I do know is each header is random, from a dictionary lookup
> which itself is random except when a thread is started (then it
> remains).

Hadn't noticed, surprised that doesn't cause complaints due to incorrect
character sets etc.

> Honestly, Andy... I don't even know what format=flowed does.
> What does it do that matters anyway?

It's a way of being able to treat CRLFs as "soft" rather than "hard"
breaks, so that messages display according to available screen width of
the reader, rather than in whatever width the writer used.