Hi All,

The Duck is failing me. Anyone know of a source
for Peltier Heat Pump coolers for tablets/laptops?

Many thanks,
-T

On 2022-03-22 6:54 p.m., T wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> The Duck is failing me.   Anyone know of a source
> for Peltier Heat Pump coolers for tablets/laptops?
>
> Many thanks,
> -T

I find some on Amazon, here is one example, a few others also.

https://www.amazon.ca/Thermoelectric-Refrigeration-Conduction-Semiconductor-Conditioner/dp/B079QWMCW3/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1UJH3VYEN0WLP&keywords=peltier+heat+pump&qid=1647994321&sprefix=peltier+heat+pumps%2Caps%2C267&sr=8-3

Rene

On 2022-03-22 8:15 p.m., Rene Lamontagne wrote:
> On 2022-03-22 6:54 p.m., T wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> The Duck is failing me.   Anyone know of a source
>> for Peltier Heat Pump coolers for tablets/laptops?
>>
>> Many thanks,
>> -T
>
> I find some on Amazon, here is one example, a few others also.
>
> https://www.amazon.ca/Thermoelectric-Refrigeration-Conduction-Semiconductor-Conditioner/dp/B079QWMCW3/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1UJH3VYEN0WLP&keywords=peltier+heat+pump&qid=1647994321&sprefix=peltier+heat+pumps%2Caps%2C267&sr=8-3
>
>
> Rene

More Peltier plates.

https://www.amazon.ca/Agile-Shop-TEC1-12710-Thermoelectric-Cooler-Peltier/dp/B01MQZ6C0L/ref=sr_1_13?crid=3HLQGBORXGJK6&keywords=laptop+peltier+cooler&qid=1648000428&sprefix=laptop+peltier+cooler%2Caps%2C337&sr=8-13

Rene

T wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> The Duck is failing me.   Anyone know of a source
> for Peltier Heat Pump coolers for tablets/laptops?
>
> Many thanks,
> -T

What Exactly would it cool?
It would need fans get rid of the Peltier's intrinsic heat.

On 3/22/22 19:55, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
> On 2022-03-22 8:15 p.m., Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>> On 2022-03-22 6:54 p.m., T wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> The Duck is failing me.   Anyone know of a source
>>> for Peltier Heat Pump coolers for tablets/laptops?
>>>
>>> Many thanks,
>>> -T
>>
>> I find some on Amazon, here is one example, a few others also.
>>
>> https://www.amazon.ca/Thermoelectric-Refrigeration-Conduction-Semiconductor-Conditioner/dp/B079QWMCW3/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1UJH3VYEN0WLP&keywords=peltier+heat+pump&qid=1647994321&sprefix=peltier+heat+pumps%2Caps%2C267&sr=8-3
>>
>>
>> Rene
>
> More Peltier plates.
>
> https://www.amazon.ca/Agile-Shop-TEC1-12710-Thermoelectric-Cooler-Peltier/dp/B01MQZ6C0L/ref=sr_1_13?crid=3HLQGBORXGJK6&keywords=laptop+peltier+cooler&qid=1648000428&sprefix=laptop+peltier+cooler%2Caps%2C337&sr=8-13
>
>
> Rene
>
I was looking for something to place a laptop on
that would cool it in a hot room. Not just blow hot
air across the laptop

On 3/22/22 18:56, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
> T wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> The Duck is failing me.   Anyone know of a source
>> for Peltier Heat Pump coolers for tablets/laptops?
>>
>> Many thanks,
>> -T
>
> What Exactly would it cool?
> It would need fans get rid of the Peltier's intrinsic heat.
>

I was looking for something to place a laptop on
that would cool it in a hot room. Not just blow hot
air across the laptop.
Fan to blow cold air on to the back of the laptop
and blow hot air away from the laptop

On 2022-03-22 9:40 p.m., T wrote:
> On 3/22/22 18:56, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
>> T wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> The Duck is failing me.   Anyone know of a source
>>> for Peltier Heat Pump coolers for tablets/laptops?
>>>
>>> Many thanks,
>>> -T
>>
>> What Exactly would it cool?
>> It would need fans get rid of the Peltier's intrinsic heat.
>>
>
>
> I was looking for something to place a laptop on
> that would cool it in a hot room.  Not just blow hot
> air across the laptop.
>
> Fan to blow cold air on to the back of the laptop
> and blow hot air away from the laptop

Yeah, these are way too tiny, I hadn't looked at the specs.

Rene

T wrote:
> On 3/22/22 18:56, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
>> T wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> The Duck is failing me.   Anyone know of a source
>>> for Peltier Heat Pump coolers for tablets/laptops?
>>>
>>> Many thanks,
>>> -T
>>
>> What Exactly would it cool?
>> It would need fans get rid of the Peltier's intrinsic heat.
>>
>
>
> I was looking for something to place a laptop on
> that would cool it in a hot room.  Not just blow hot
> air across the laptop.
>
> Fan to blow cold air on to the back of the laptop
> and blow hot air away from the laptop

I have never run across one for laptops.
It may end up being quite large with heat sinks and ducted fans on both
the hot and cold sides. We tried peltiers on some of our pipeline
monitoring equipment but ended up just using fans and heat sinks without
the peltiers.

T wrote:

> Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>
>> Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>
>>> T wrote:
>>>
>>>> The Duck is failing me.   Anyone know of a source for Peltier Heat
>>>> Pump coolers for tablets/laptops?
>>>
>>> I find some on Amazon, here is one example, a few others also.
>>>
>>> https://www.amazon.ca/Thermoelectric-Refrigeration-Conduction-Semiconductor-Conditioner/dp/B079QWMCW3/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1UJH3VYEN0WLP&keywords=peltier+heat+pump&qid=1647994321&sprefix=peltier+heat+pumps%2Caps%2C267&sr=8-3
>>
>> More Peltier plates.
>> https://www.amazon.ca/Agile-Shop-TEC1-12710-Thermoelectric-Cooler-Peltier/dp/B01MQZ6C0L/ref=sr_1_13?crid=3HLQGBORXGJK6&keywords=laptop+peltier+cooler&qid=1648000428&sprefix=laptop+peltier+cooler%2Caps%2C337&sr=8-13
>
> I was looking for something to place a laptop on that would cool it in
> a hot room. Not just blow hot air across the laptop

The Peltier plate requires intimate contact similar to how you want a
heatsink to have good contact to the CPU. How is a plate under a laptop
going to have good contact? The laptop has feet, so it rests above the
surface on which it is laid. There is a plastic shell around the laptop
(the case). The Peltier plate will have contact with nothing that is
producing heat.

Are you going to dismantle the laptop, and somehow provide contact of
the Peltier plate with all components generating heat? Even if you
applied a thermal layer (which would destroy the heat transfer) to press
the plate against the mobo, it isn't the mobo that is generating the
heat.

Even if you did manage to have the Peltier plate attached directly to
the heat sources, why would you want the heat to sit there which would
reduce thermal transfer? Heat moves faster when there is a difference
in temperature, not when the temperature is the same. A bunch of hot
air sitting atop the Peltier plate means it won't cool. So, a fan is
still needed to get the extracted heat removed from the plate. Well,
unless you planned on some waterfall scheme to run cool water over the
plate.

How many watts were you planning to consume trying to cool a laptop?
Peltier plates are hardly efficient (only 5%). Whatever you use to
supply the power to the Peltier plate is going to also produce heat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX2NQ1lq4ZM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWrqyQWfhrs

On 3/22/22 22:13, VanguardLH wrote:
> T wrote:
>
>> Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>
>>> Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>>
>>>> T wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The Duck is failing me.   Anyone know of a source for Peltier Heat
>>>>> Pump coolers for tablets/laptops?
>>>>
>>>> I find some on Amazon, here is one example, a few others also.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.amazon.ca/Thermoelectric-Refrigeration-Conduction-Semiconductor-Conditioner/dp/B079QWMCW3/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1UJH3VYEN0WLP&keywords=peltier+heat+pump&qid=1647994321&sprefix=peltier+heat+pumps%2Caps%2C267&sr=8-3
>>>
>>> More Peltier plates.
>>> https://www.amazon.ca/Agile-Shop-TEC1-12710-Thermoelectric-Cooler-Peltier/dp/B01MQZ6C0L/ref=sr_1_13?crid=3HLQGBORXGJK6&keywords=laptop+peltier+cooler&qid=1648000428&sprefix=laptop+peltier+cooler%2Caps%2C337&sr=8-13
>>
>> I was looking for something to place a laptop on that would cool it in
>> a hot room. Not just blow hot air across the laptop
>
> The Peltier plate requires intimate contact similar to how you want a
> heatsink to have good contact to the CPU. How is a plate under a laptop
> going to have good contact? The laptop has feet, so it rests above the
> surface on which it is laid. There is a plastic shell around the laptop
> (the case). The Peltier plate will have contact with nothing that is
> producing heat.
>
> Are you going to dismantle the laptop, and somehow provide contact of
> the Peltier plate with all components generating heat? Even if you
> applied a thermal layer (which would destroy the heat transfer) to press
> the plate against the mobo, it isn't the mobo that is generating the
> heat.
>
> Even if you did manage to have the Peltier plate attached directly to
> the heat sources, why would you want the heat to sit there which would
> reduce thermal transfer? Heat moves faster when there is a difference
> in temperature, not when the temperature is the same. A bunch of hot
> air sitting atop the Peltier plate means it won't cool. So, a fan is
> still needed to get the extracted heat removed from the plate. Well,
> unless you planned on some waterfall scheme to run cool water over the
> plate.
>
> How many watts were you planning to consume trying to cool a laptop?
> Peltier plates are hardly efficient (only 5%). Whatever you use to
> supply the power to the Peltier plate is going to also produce heat.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX2NQ1lq4ZM
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWrqyQWfhrs
Fans

T wrote:

> On 3/22/22 22:13, VanguardLH wrote:
>> T wrote:
>>
>>> Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>>
>>>> Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> T wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The Duck is failing me.   Anyone know of a source for Peltier Heat
>>>>>> Pump coolers for tablets/laptops?
>>>>>
>>>>> I find some on Amazon, here is one example, a few others also.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.amazon.ca/Thermoelectric-Refrigeration-Conduction-Semiconductor-Conditioner/dp/B079QWMCW3/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1UJH3VYEN0WLP&keywords=peltier+heat+pump&qid=1647994321&sprefix=peltier+heat+pumps%2Caps%2C267&sr=8-3
>>>>
>>>> More Peltier plates.
>>>> https://www.amazon.ca/Agile-Shop-TEC1-12710-Thermoelectric-Cooler-Peltier/dp/B01MQZ6C0L/ref=sr_1_13?crid=3HLQGBORXGJK6&keywords=laptop+peltier+cooler&qid=1648000428&sprefix=laptop+peltier+cooler%2Caps%2C337&sr=8-13
>>>
>>> I was looking for something to place a laptop on that would cool it in
>>> a hot room. Not just blow hot air across the laptop
>>
>> The Peltier plate requires intimate contact similar to how you want a
>> heatsink to have good contact to the CPU. How is a plate under a laptop
>> going to have good contact? The laptop has feet, so it rests above the
>> surface on which it is laid. There is a plastic shell around the laptop
>> (the case). The Peltier plate will have contact with nothing that is
>> producing heat.
>>
>> Are you going to dismantle the laptop, and somehow provide contact of
>> the Peltier plate with all components generating heat? Even if you
>> applied a thermal layer (which would destroy the heat transfer) to press
>> the plate against the mobo, it isn't the mobo that is generating the
>> heat.
>>
>> Even if you did manage to have the Peltier plate attached directly to
>> the heat sources, why would you want the heat to sit there which would
>> reduce thermal transfer? Heat moves faster when there is a difference
>> in temperature, not when the temperature is the same. A bunch of hot
>> air sitting atop the Peltier plate means it won't cool. So, a fan is
>> still needed to get the extracted heat removed from the plate. Well,
>> unless you planned on some waterfall scheme to run cool water over the
>> plate.
>>
>> How many watts were you planning to consume trying to cool a laptop?
>> Peltier plates are hardly efficient (only 5%). Whatever you use to
>> supply the power to the Peltier plate is going to also produce heat.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX2NQ1lq4ZM
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWrqyQWfhrs
>
> Fans

Which you said you did not want to use. But now they're okay? If so,
why do you need the Peltier plate (which you cannot use outside the
laptop, anyway)?

On 3/22/2022 10:40 PM, T wrote:
> On 3/22/22 18:56, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
>> T wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> The Duck is failing me.   Anyone know of a source
>>> for Peltier Heat Pump coolers for tablets/laptops?
>>>
>>> Many thanks,
>>> -T
>>
>> What Exactly would it cool?
>> It would need fans get rid of the Peltier's intrinsic heat.
>>
>
>
> I was looking for something to place a laptop on
> that would cool it in a hot room.  Not just blow hot
> air across the laptop.
>
> Fan to blow cold air on to the back of the laptop
> and blow hot air away from the laptop

TEC (Thermo Electric Coolers) are low-efficiency devices.

If you use them for sub-ambient cooling, there can be
condensation. Depending on how and where, this can cause
corrosion of motherboard components.

Using regular air cooling (what the laptop uses),
there is no sub-ambient involved normally. If you cool
electronics with room air, generally there is no moisture
that ends up coating everything.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_cooling

"In refrigeration applications, thermoelectric junctions have about
1/4 the efficiency (COP) compared to conventional (vapor compression
refrigeration) means: they offer around 10–15% efficiency of the
ideal Carnot cycle refrigerator, compared with 40–60% achieved by
conventional compression-cycle systems (reverse Rankine systems using
compression/expansion).[11] Due to this lower efficiency, thermoelectric
cooling is generally only used in environments where the solid-state
nature (no moving parts), low maintenance, compact size, and orientation
insensitivity outweighs pure efficiency."

The basic part is the plate (hot side and cold side)
and two wires. And a lot of current. The plate needs
the fans, to help keep the thermal efficiency high
(such as it is).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5b/Thermoelectric_Seebeck_power_module.jpg/1024px-Thermoelectric_Seebeck_power_module.jpg

They can also be labeled as Thermo Electric Generator (TEG).
They can generate electricity to run a fan, in this wood
stove application. Some of the earlier versions of these,
had a spring loaded thermal protection to avoid burning
the plate. (It lifts the TEG off the wood stove surface.)

https://www.amazon.ca/4-Blade-Powered-Fireplace-increases-Friendly/dp/B01CD2AIV8?th=1

Some tablets have a thermal path to the back of the tablet,
and that then, allows a TEC plate to be attached to the back
and achieve a result. For a tablet, you'd attach a TEC plate
over the "hot spot". The tablet CPU and GPU are inside the
same chip. But then the TEC plate would need a fan, and the
tablet would be lifted two inches off the table by the
associated garbage needed.

Whereas laptops, it's harder to get the cool air inside.
You can't exactly fit a TEC plate to the heatpipe assembly
in a laptop, without some Dremel activity. And moving the
cool air using just the laptop fan, isn't a good transfer
mechanism particularly. If the casing is plastic, it's not
a conduction path. Whereas some tablets are metal on the
back (as their "heat path"), and then there are some
possibilities for science experiments.

*******

When we used a TEC at work, it was placed in a linear feedback
loop (op amp), to monitor the surface temperature and turn
down the TEC before it got too cold.

Computers vary in thermal load, and it's a slight possibility
that when the laptop is idling, it would get too cold and
moisture would condense near the TEC. That's where control
loops come in. While we could use a linear control loop
(not very efficient), a PWM makes more sense (similar to a
D-class power amp) for driving a 200W TEC in a responsible
manner.

*******

But considering you're in a hot room, maybe what
you need is a lower-power compute solution. Or you need
a device with better options for installing coolers.

Paul

On 2022-03-23 07:51, VanguardLH wrote:
> T wrote:
>
>> On 3/22/22 22:13, VanguardLH wrote:
>>> T wrote:
>>>
>>>> Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> T wrote:

>>>
>>> How many watts were you planning to consume trying to cool a laptop?
>>> Peltier plates are hardly efficient (only 5%). Whatever you use to
>>> supply the power to the Peltier plate is going to also produce heat.
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX2NQ1lq4ZM
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWrqyQWfhrs
>>
>> Fans
>
> Which you said you did not want to use. But now they're okay? If so,
> why do you need the Peltier plate (which you cannot use outside the
> laptop, anyway)?

You might use a big Peltier unit (such as used on portable coolers for
cars⁽¹⁾) to generate a flow of cool air, using it the same way as
external laptop bases with a fan inside work (not very efficiently). And
the thing would exhaust hot air somewhere. Quite inefficient.

I have never seen this.

(1) https://www.amazon.es/dp/B00B6VN46Y

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 3/22/22 23:51, VanguardLH wrote:
> T wrote:
>
>> On 3/22/22 22:13, VanguardLH wrote:
>>> T wrote:
>>>
>>>> Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> T wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Duck is failing me.   Anyone know of a source for Peltier Heat
>>>>>>> Pump coolers for tablets/laptops?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I find some on Amazon, here is one example, a few others also.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.amazon.ca/Thermoelectric-Refrigeration-Conduction-Semiconductor-Conditioner/dp/B079QWMCW3/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1UJH3VYEN0WLP&keywords=peltier+heat+pump&qid=1647994321&sprefix=peltier+heat+pumps%2Caps%2C267&sr=8-3
>>>>>
>>>>> More Peltier plates.
>>>>> https://www.amazon.ca/Agile-Shop-TEC1-12710-Thermoelectric-Cooler-Peltier/dp/B01MQZ6C0L/ref=sr_1_13?crid=3HLQGBORXGJK6&keywords=laptop+peltier+cooler&qid=1648000428&sprefix=laptop+peltier+cooler%2Caps%2C337&sr=8-13
>>>>
>>>> I was looking for something to place a laptop on that would cool it in
>>>> a hot room. Not just blow hot air across the laptop
>>>
>>> The Peltier plate requires intimate contact similar to how you want a
>>> heatsink to have good contact to the CPU. How is a plate under a laptop
>>> going to have good contact? The laptop has feet, so it rests above the
>>> surface on which it is laid. There is a plastic shell around the laptop
>>> (the case). The Peltier plate will have contact with nothing that is
>>> producing heat.
>>>
>>> Are you going to dismantle the laptop, and somehow provide contact of
>>> the Peltier plate with all components generating heat? Even if you
>>> applied a thermal layer (which would destroy the heat transfer) to press
>>> the plate against the mobo, it isn't the mobo that is generating the
>>> heat.
>>>
>>> Even if you did manage to have the Peltier plate attached directly to
>>> the heat sources, why would you want the heat to sit there which would
>>> reduce thermal transfer? Heat moves faster when there is a difference
>>> in temperature, not when the temperature is the same. A bunch of hot
>>> air sitting atop the Peltier plate means it won't cool. So, a fan is
>>> still needed to get the extracted heat removed from the plate. Well,
>>> unless you planned on some waterfall scheme to run cool water over the
>>> plate.
>>>
>>> How many watts were you planning to consume trying to cool a laptop?
>>> Peltier plates are hardly efficient (only 5%). Whatever you use to
>>> supply the power to the Peltier plate is going to also produce heat.
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX2NQ1lq4ZM
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWrqyQWfhrs
>>
>> Fans
>
> Which you said you did not want to use. But now they're okay? If so,
> why do you need the Peltier plate (which you cannot use outside the
> laptop, anyway)?
I said I did not want to blow hot air from the room
across the laptop. Temp ~ 90 to 100 F. I wanted to
blow cold air across the laptop. If the room was
78 F, it would be different. Customer is going to
ruin his machine if he cheaps out on the AC.

On 3/23/22 05:12, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2022-03-23 07:51, VanguardLH wrote:
>> T wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/22/22 22:13, VanguardLH wrote:
>>>> T wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> T wrote:
>
>
>>>>
>>>> How many watts were you planning to consume trying to cool a laptop?
>>>> Peltier plates are hardly efficient (only 5%).  Whatever you use to
>>>> supply the power to the Peltier plate is going to also produce heat.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX2NQ1lq4ZM
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWrqyQWfhrs
>>>
>>> Fans
>>
>> Which you said you did not want to use.  But now they're okay?  If so,
>> why do you need the Peltier plate (which you cannot use outside the
>> laptop, anyway)?
>
> You might use a big Peltier unit (such as used on portable coolers for
> cars⁽¹⁾) to generate a flow of cool air, using it the same way as
> external laptop bases with a fan inside work (not very efficiently). And
> the thing would exhaust hot air somewhere. Quite inefficient.
>
> I have never seen this.
>
>
> (1) https://www.amazon.es/dp/B00B6VN46Y
I bought one of those form my car one time. Worked
very poorly. I think the power requirements for a
functioning unit would have been too high for
my car to work properly, so...

I am starting to think a dual hose portable AC
might be a better idea.

On 2022-03-23 11:17 a.m., T wrote:
> On 3/22/22 23:51, VanguardLH wrote:
>> T wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/22/22 22:13, VanguardLH wrote:
>>>> T wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> T wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Duck is failing me.   Anyone know of a source for Peltier Heat
>>>>>>>> Pump coolers for tablets/laptops?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I find some on Amazon, here is one example, a few others also.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.amazon.ca/Thermoelectric-Refrigeration-Conduction-Semiconductor-Conditioner/dp/B079QWMCW3/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1UJH3VYEN0WLP&keywords=peltier+heat+pump&qid=1647994321&sprefix=peltier+heat+pumps%2Caps%2C267&sr=8-3
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> More Peltier plates.
>>>>>> https://www.amazon.ca/Agile-Shop-TEC1-12710-Thermoelectric-Cooler-Peltier/dp/B01MQZ6C0L/ref=sr_1_13?crid=3HLQGBORXGJK6&keywords=laptop+peltier+cooler&qid=1648000428&sprefix=laptop+peltier+cooler%2Caps%2C337&sr=8-13
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I was looking for something to place a laptop on that would cool it in
>>>>> a hot room.  Not just blow hot air across the laptop
>>>>
>>>> The Peltier plate requires intimate contact similar to how you want a
>>>> heatsink to have good contact to the CPU.  How is a plate under a
>>>> laptop
>>>> going to have good contact?  The laptop has feet, so it rests above the
>>>> surface on which it is laid.  There is a plastic shell around the
>>>> laptop
>>>> (the case).  The Peltier plate will have contact with nothing that is
>>>> producing heat.
>>>>
>>>> Are you going to dismantle the laptop, and somehow provide contact of
>>>> the Peltier plate with all components generating heat?  Even if you
>>>> applied a thermal layer (which would destroy the heat transfer) to
>>>> press
>>>> the plate against the mobo, it isn't the mobo that is generating the
>>>> heat.
>>>>
>>>> Even if you did manage to have the Peltier plate attached directly to
>>>> the heat sources, why would you want the heat to sit there which would
>>>> reduce thermal transfer?  Heat moves faster when there is a difference
>>>> in temperature, not when the temperature is the same.  A bunch of hot
>>>> air sitting atop the Peltier plate means it won't cool.  So, a fan is
>>>> still needed to get the extracted heat removed from the plate.  Well,
>>>> unless you planned on some waterfall scheme to run cool water over the
>>>> plate.
>>>>
>>>> How many watts were you planning to consume trying to cool a laptop?
>>>> Peltier plates are hardly efficient (only 5%).  Whatever you use to
>>>> supply the power to the Peltier plate is going to also produce heat.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX2NQ1lq4ZM
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWrqyQWfhrs
>>>
>>> Fans
>>
>> Which you said you did not want to use.  But now they're okay?  If so,
>> why do you need the Peltier plate (which you cannot use outside the
>> laptop, anyway)?
>
> I said I did not want to blow hot air from the room
> across the laptop.  Temp ~ 90 to 100 F.  I wanted to
> blow cold air across the laptop.  If the room was
> 78 F, it would be different.  Customer is going to
> ruin his machine if he cheaps out on the AC.

'Tough Ice Cubes' :-)

Rene

On 3/23/22 00:39, Paul wrote:
> On 3/22/2022 10:40 PM, T wrote:
>> On 3/22/22 18:56, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
>>> T wrote:
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> The Duck is failing me.   Anyone know of a source
>>>> for Peltier Heat Pump coolers for tablets/laptops?
>>>>
>>>> Many thanks,
>>>> -T
>>>
>>> What Exactly would it cool?
>>> It would need fans get rid of the Peltier's intrinsic heat.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I was looking for something to place a laptop on
>> that would cool it in a hot room.  Not just blow hot
>> air across the laptop.
>>
>> Fan to blow cold air on to the back of the laptop
>> and blow hot air away from the laptop
>
> TEC (Thermo Electric Coolers) are low-efficiency devices.
>
> If you use them for sub-ambient cooling, there can be
> condensation. Depending on how and where, this can cause
> corrosion of motherboard components.
>
> Using regular air cooling (what the laptop uses),
> there is no sub-ambient involved normally. If you cool
> electronics with room air, generally there is no moisture
> that ends up coating everything.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_cooling
>
>    "In refrigeration applications, thermoelectric junctions have about
>     1/4 the efficiency (COP) compared to conventional (vapor compression
>     refrigeration) means: they offer around 10–15% efficiency of the
>     ideal Carnot cycle refrigerator, compared with 40–60% achieved by
>     conventional compression-cycle systems (reverse Rankine systems using
>     compression/expansion).[11] Due to this lower efficiency,
> thermoelectric
>     cooling is generally only used in environments where the solid-state
>     nature (no moving parts), low maintenance, compact size, and
> orientation
>     insensitivity outweighs pure efficiency."
>
> The basic part is the plate (hot side and cold side)
> and two wires. And a lot of current. The plate needs
> the fans, to help keep the thermal efficiency high
> (such as it is).
>
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5b/Thermoelectric_Seebeck_power_module.jpg/1024px-Thermoelectric_Seebeck_power_module.jpg
>
>
> They can also be labeled as Thermo Electric Generator (TEG).
> They can generate electricity to run a fan, in this wood
> stove application. Some of the earlier versions of these,
> had a spring loaded thermal protection to avoid burning
> the plate. (It lifts the TEG off the wood stove surface.)
>
> https://www.amazon.ca/4-Blade-Powered-Fireplace-increases-Friendly/dp/B01CD2AIV8?th=1
>
>
> Some tablets have a thermal path to the back of the tablet,
> and that then, allows a TEC plate to be attached to the back
> and achieve a result. For a tablet, you'd attach a TEC plate
> over the "hot spot". The tablet CPU and GPU are inside the
> same chip. But then the TEC plate would need a fan, and the
> tablet would be lifted two inches off the table by the
> associated garbage needed.
>
> Whereas laptops, it's harder to get the cool air inside.
> You can't exactly fit a TEC plate to the heatpipe assembly
> in a laptop, without some Dremel activity. And moving the
> cool air using just the laptop fan, isn't a good transfer
> mechanism particularly. If the casing is plastic, it's not
> a conduction path. Whereas some tablets are metal on the
> back (as their "heat path"), and then there are some
> possibilities for science experiments.
>
> *******
>
> When we used a TEC at work, it was placed in a linear feedback
> loop (op amp), to monitor the surface temperature and turn
> down the TEC before it got too cold.
>
> Computers vary in thermal load, and it's a slight possibility
> that when the laptop is idling, it would get too cold and
> moisture would condense near the TEC. That's where control
> loops come in. While we could use a linear control loop
> (not very efficient), a PWM makes more sense (similar to a
> D-class power amp) for driving a 200W TEC in a responsible
> manner.
>
> *******
>
> But considering you're in a hot room, maybe what
> you need is a lower-power compute solution. Or you need
> a device with better options for installing coolers.
>
>    Paul
I am starting to think the best solution, since the
room is small anyway, would be to install a portable
dual hose AC.
Great write up, by the way.

T wrote:

> I am starting to think a dual hose portable AC might be a better idea.

That was what I thought about last night, but had to force myself to go
to bed to be on time for a morning meeting. As you mention, you want
the dual-hose style, so intake and exhaust are both outside. You'll
need a nearby window. While the portable A/C units often come with a
window adapter, you might have to fabricate your own. This would let
you blow cooled air over the laptop should the room be excessively hot,
but who wants to work on a computer in a dry heat sauna? Seems the
laptop should get moved to a cooler room, like the one the portable A/C
is cooling, and leave the sensors or whatever you're hooking up to the
computer in the scorching room.

If this is for your comfort, or for your laptop, when having to work at
a customer site that is way overheated, you sure there will be a window
where you can temporarily install the window adapter to vent out the
exhaust from the A/C unit? If the customer has you working inside a
sweat box, do they really pay you enough to be there?

On 3/23/2022 12:24 PM, T wrote:
> On 3/23/22 00:39, Paul wrote:
>> On 3/22/2022 10:40 PM, T wrote:
>>> On 3/22/22 18:56, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
>>>> T wrote:
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>
>>>>> The Duck is failing me.   Anyone know of a source
>>>>> for Peltier Heat Pump coolers for tablets/laptops?
>>>>>
>>>>> Many thanks,
>>>>> -T
>>>>
>>>> What Exactly would it cool?
>>>> It would need fans get rid of the Peltier's intrinsic heat.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I was looking for something to place a laptop on
>>> that would cool it in a hot room.  Not just blow hot
>>> air across the laptop.
>>>
>>> Fan to blow cold air on to the back of the laptop
>>> and blow hot air away from the laptop
>>
>> TEC (Thermo Electric Coolers) are low-efficiency devices.
>>
>> If you use them for sub-ambient cooling, there can be
>> condensation. Depending on how and where, this can cause
>> corrosion of motherboard components.
>>
>> Using regular air cooling (what the laptop uses),
>> there is no sub-ambient involved normally. If you cool
>> electronics with room air, generally there is no moisture
>> that ends up coating everything.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_cooling
>>
>>     "In refrigeration applications, thermoelectric junctions have about
>>      1/4 the efficiency (COP) compared to conventional (vapor compression
>>      refrigeration) means: they offer around 10–15% efficiency of the
>>      ideal Carnot cycle refrigerator, compared with 40–60% achieved by
>>      conventional compression-cycle systems (reverse Rankine systems using
>>      compression/expansion).[11] Due to this lower efficiency, thermoelectric
>>      cooling is generally only used in environments where the solid-state
>>      nature (no moving parts), low maintenance, compact size, and orientation
>>      insensitivity outweighs pure efficiency."
>>
>> The basic part is the plate (hot side and cold side)
>> and two wires. And a lot of current. The plate needs
>> the fans, to help keep the thermal efficiency high
>> (such as it is).
>>
>> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5b/Thermoelectric_Seebeck_power_module.jpg/1024px-Thermoelectric_Seebeck_power_module.jpg
>>
>> They can also be labeled as Thermo Electric Generator (TEG).
>> They can generate electricity to run a fan, in this wood
>> stove application. Some of the earlier versions of these,
>> had a spring loaded thermal protection to avoid burning
>> the plate. (It lifts the TEG off the wood stove surface.)
>>
>> https://www.amazon.ca/4-Blade-Powered-Fireplace-increases-Friendly/dp/B01CD2AIV8?th=1
>>
>> Some tablets have a thermal path to the back of the tablet,
>> and that then, allows a TEC plate to be attached to the back
>> and achieve a result. For a tablet, you'd attach a TEC plate
>> over the "hot spot". The tablet CPU and GPU are inside the
>> same chip. But then the TEC plate would need a fan, and the
>> tablet would be lifted two inches off the table by the
>> associated garbage needed.
>>
>> Whereas laptops, it's harder to get the cool air inside.
>> You can't exactly fit a TEC plate to the heatpipe assembly
>> in a laptop, without some Dremel activity. And moving the
>> cool air using just the laptop fan, isn't a good transfer
>> mechanism particularly. If the casing is plastic, it's not
>> a conduction path. Whereas some tablets are metal on the
>> back (as their "heat path"), and then there are some
>> possibilities for science experiments.
>>
>> *******
>>
>> When we used a TEC at work, it was placed in a linear feedback
>> loop (op amp), to monitor the surface temperature and turn
>> down the TEC before it got too cold.
>>
>> Computers vary in thermal load, and it's a slight possibility
>> that when the laptop is idling, it would get too cold and
>> moisture would condense near the TEC. That's where control
>> loops come in. While we could use a linear control loop
>> (not very efficient), a PWM makes more sense (similar to a
>> D-class power amp) for driving a 200W TEC in a responsible
>> manner.
>>
>> *******
>>
>> But considering you're in a hot room, maybe what
>> you need is a lower-power compute solution. Or you need
>> a device with better options for installing coolers.
>>
>>     Paul
>
> I am starting to think the best solution, since the
> room is small anyway, would be to install a portable
> dual hose AC.
>
> Great write up, by the way.

The dual hose ones are harder to find, for no
particular reason. Considering supply problems, there
might not be one available.

I just wasn't envisioning this as a room with a window.
Because most people, when being baked alive, will plunk
a window AC in the window to fix that.

Beware of the refrigerant choices today. Not a lot of
good choices left. If an AC dies today, it might not be
financially viable to refill it!

R12 My old central air (Mr.NoMaintenanceRequired)
R134a My "new" central air, Mr.Leakey
R600a The new refrigerator (Mr.flammable)
R-1234yf None on the premises (Mr.TooExpensiveToRefill)
R-744 CO2 1,900 psi (Mr.OhMyGodWhatJustExploded)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigerant

Paul

On 2022-03-23 17:20, T wrote:
> On 3/23/22 05:12, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2022-03-23 07:51, VanguardLH wrote:
>>> T wrote:
>>>> On 3/22/22 22:13, VanguardLH wrote:
>>>>> T wrote:
>>>>>> Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>>>>>> Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>>>>>>> T wrote:
>>
>>

>>>> Fans
>>>
>>> Which you said you did not want to use.  But now they're okay?  If so,
>>> why do you need the Peltier plate (which you cannot use outside the
>>> laptop, anyway)?
>>
>> You might use a big Peltier unit (such as used on portable coolers for
>> cars⁽¹⁾) to generate a flow of cool air, using it the same way as
>> external laptop bases with a fan inside work (not very efficiently).
>> And the thing would exhaust hot air somewhere. Quite inefficient.
>>
>> I have never seen this.
>>
>>
>> (1) https://www.amazon.es/dp/B00B6VN46Y
>
> I bought one of those form my car one time.  Worked
> very poorly.  I think the power requirements for a
> functioning unit would have been too high for
> my car to work properly, so...
>
>
> I am starting to think a dual hose portable AC
> might be a better idea.

I had one on my computer room. Made an awful noise, and was inefficient.

Wait, dual hose? I have not seen those.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 3/23/2022 6:03 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2022-03-23 17:20, T wrote:
>> On 3/23/22 05:12, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> On 2022-03-23 07:51, VanguardLH wrote:
>>>> T wrote:
>>>>> On 3/22/22 22:13, VanguardLH wrote:
>>>>>> T wrote:
>>>>>>> Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>>>>>>> Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>>>>>>>> T wrote:
>>>
>>>
>
>
>>>>> Fans
>>>>
>>>> Which you said you did not want to use.  But now they're okay?  If so,
>>>> why do you need the Peltier plate (which you cannot use outside the
>>>> laptop, anyway)?
>>>
>>> You might use a big Peltier unit (such as used on portable coolers for cars⁽¹⁾) to generate a flow of cool air, using it the same way as external laptop bases with a fan inside work (not very efficiently). And the thing would exhaust hot air somewhere. Quite inefficient.
>>>
>>> I have never seen this.
>>>
>>>
>>> (1) https://www.amazon.es/dp/B00B6VN46Y
>>
>> I bought one of those form my car one time.  Worked
>> very poorly.  I think the power requirements for a
>> functioning unit would have been too high for
>> my car to work properly, so...
>>
>>
>> I am starting to think a dual hose portable AC
>> might be a better idea.
>
> I had one on my computer room. Made an awful noise, and was inefficient.
>
> Wait, dual hose? I have not seen those.

That's a portable air conditioner on wheels, about three
to four feet tall, with two hoses on the hot side.
You can even fit the two hoses to a window insert that
sits in one window opening. The hoses can be next to
one another.

But it would work slightly better with two windows, and
one hose in each window.

The cold side of the airconditioner draws in room
air and discharges room air, without hoses.

By using hoses, the portable air conditioner on wheels
does not sit on an apartment windowsill and presents no
danger to pedestrians on the street below.

The single hose model, blows room air out through
the exhaust hose, as part of the hot side solution.
Which is a waste of moderately cool indoor air, and
it causes the machine to take longer to drop
the room air temperature.

Paul

Paul wrote:

> Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
>> Wait, dual hose? I have not seen those.
>
> That's a portable air conditioner on wheels, about three
> to four feet tall, with two hoses on the hot side.

One hose is an intake from outside.
Other hose is an exhaust to the outside.
The compressor gets intake air from outside, and discard exhaust air to
the outside. A separate fan pushes inside air across the exchanger to
cool the room.

https://www.eliteheatingandac.com/blog/single-hose-vs-dual-hose-air-conditioners/

> You can even fit the two hoses to a window insert that
> sits in one window opening. The hoses can be next to
> one another.

I've see a dual-hose unit that had one fat hose: one hose was nestled
inside the other hose.

> But it would work slightly better with two windows, and
> one hose in each window.

Not required for dual-hose. However, separating the intake and exhaust
ends on the outside would eliminate the intake picking up heated air
from the exhaust. If there is insufficient width in the window, you
could droop the intake hose to be closer to the ground, and hang the
exhaust hose to be farther up, like separating them by 30".

> The single hose model, blows room air out through
> the exhaust hose, as part of the hot side solution.
> Which is a waste of moderately cool indoor air, and
> it causes the machine to take longer to drop
> the room air temperature.

Whether single- or dual-hose, portable A/C units are inefficient (low
[C]EER rating) compared to the in-window or in-wall units (which are
less efficient than whole-home forced air systems). Picking similar BTU
sized portable and window units, a dual-hose portable A/C has <5 CEER
compared to 10-15 for a windows A/C unit.

T better hope his customers don't make him hook up the portable A/C unit
to a killowatt meter to deduct from his fee the cost of his cooling. He
had also hope that the outlet to which he connects his portable A/C unit
is on a circuit that can handle the normal load (amperes) plus the extra
load from his portable A/C. Because of low efficiency, a portable A/C
unit will consume the same amperes as an in-window unit of higher BTU.

Although the unit is denoted as portable, it isn't lightweight (check
the weight to make sure you can lug it around, especially up stairs), it
consumes floor space (will there be room for it), requires a nearby
window where it can be positioned on the floor, and will need an adapter
plate to hold the hoses into a window opening (and accomodate windows
that slide up and those that slide sideways). Although "portable",
they're really rather permanent: you set them up, and leave them there
for a long time.

Paul wrote:

> Beware of the refrigerant choices today. Not a lot of good choices
> left. If an AC dies today, it might not be financially viable to
> refill it!

Or financially feasible to repair it.

If the A/C unit is under warranty, the company won't take your word that
the cause of low or non-cooling is due to low/lost refrigerant. They
want you to ship it in for them to test (super high shipping cost), or
take it to a repair shop to have them estimate the cost of repairs.
With Frigidaire, I'd show the cost for repair which was nearly or
greater than the cost of a new item, and they'd send me a check to get a
replacement (and I'd have to figure out how to dispose of the old unit).
The cost of getting the shop estimate was my onus (about $80 each time).
The LGs had a 5-year warranty: 1 year on the electronics and minor
stuff, 5 years on the compressor, motor, and major components of the
system.

Over 3 times of having a window A/C unit evaluated at a shop for repair,
the cost to repair (plus the estimate cost) was greater than what I paid
for the item, or the cost for a new replacement (or too close to bother
being without the A/C unit for weeks). Luckily (or unluckily) the
Frigidaires died before the 5-year warranty expired, and it a coolant
leak which required parts replacement or soldering work. The Haier
units only had a 1-year warranty, and failed after the warranty expired,
and repair cost was too high, so just buy another one.

From what I found on the portable A/C units, they only have 1 year for
warranty even for the pricest units. In an area with winters, like
mine, the best you'll get is maybe around 6 months of use, 6 months
unused, so the 1-year warranty won't get you into the next cooling
season. In areas of no winter (always warm or hot, no snow, no winter
coats), you might get a full year of use before the 1-year warranty
expires.

Carlos E.R. wrote:

> T wrote:
>
>> I am starting to think a dual hose portable AC might be a better
>> idea.
>
> I had one on my computer room. Made an awful noise, and was inefficient.
> Wait, dual hose? I have not seen those.

https://www.homedepot.com/b/Heating-Venting-Cooling-Air-Conditioners-Portable-Air-Conditioners/Dual-Hose/N-5yc1vZc4m4Z1z17ztx
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=dual%20hose%20portable%20air%20conditioner

On 2022-03-24 01:23, Paul wrote:
> On 3/23/2022 6:03 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2022-03-23 17:20, T wrote:
>>> On 3/23/22 05:12, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> On 2022-03-23 07:51, VanguardLH wrote:
>>>>> T wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/22/22 22:13, VanguardLH wrote:
>>>>>>> T wrote:
>>>>>>>> Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> T wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>>>>> Fans
>>>>>
>>>>> Which you said you did not want to use.  But now they're okay?  If so,
>>>>> why do you need the Peltier plate (which you cannot use outside the
>>>>> laptop, anyway)?
>>>>
>>>> You might use a big Peltier unit (such as used on portable coolers
>>>> for cars⁽¹⁾) to generate a flow of cool air, using it the same way
>>>> as external laptop bases with a fan inside work (not very
>>>> efficiently). And the thing would exhaust hot air somewhere. Quite
>>>> inefficient.
>>>>
>>>> I have never seen this.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> (1) https://www.amazon.es/dp/B00B6VN46Y
>>>
>>> I bought one of those form my car one time.  Worked
>>> very poorly.  I think the power requirements for a
>>> functioning unit would have been too high for
>>> my car to work properly, so...
>>>
>>>
>>> I am starting to think a dual hose portable AC
>>> might be a better idea.
>>
>> I had one on my computer room. Made an awful noise, and was inefficient.
>>
>> Wait, dual hose? I have not seen those.
>
> That's a portable air conditioner on wheels, about three
> to four feet tall, with two hoses on the hot side.
> You can even fit the two hoses to a window insert that
> sits in one window opening. The hoses can be next to
> one another.
>
> But it would work slightly better with two windows, and
> one hose in each window.

Why not concentric tubes?

They are used here on gas heaters. The inner tube is the exhaust, the
outer tube is the intake:

||
||
----------------
<--
-------------------------
--->
-------------------------
<---
---------------
||
||
(wall)

Maybe they would be too big.

>
> The cold side of the airconditioner draws in room
> air and discharges room air, without hoses.
>
> By using hoses, the portable air conditioner on wheels
> does not sit on an apartment windowsill and presents no
> danger to pedestrians on the street below.

I have not seen windowsill units in ages!

But two tubes is quite cumbersome. I guess the unit will still be too
noisy. The unit I had was also quite big, took a lot of room space with
itself and the single tube. Eventually I installed a split unit: one
part on the inside of the wall, connected with a pipe to the compressor
unit on the outside wall. I can hardly hear it.

>
> The single hose model, blows room air out through
> the exhaust hose, as part of the hot side solution.
> Which is a waste of moderately cool indoor air, and
> it causes the machine to take longer to drop
> the room air temperature.

It also means that warm air from outside of the room comes in. Can't
close the door.

--
Cheers, Carlos.