On Sun, 2 Jul 2023 00:57:49 +0100, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> I don't know what Windows 11 comes with - there probably _is_ some such
> utility, since I think there was/is even with 7.
>

How-to Geek (I think it was) had an article recently. The backup in
Windows 11 is actually Backup for Windows 7. The article title was
something on the order of "Don't use Windows Backup because Microsoft
says not to."

Windows 7 backup was there to let people access old backups.

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

On Sun, 02 Jul 2023 08:01:15 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
wrote:

>From: Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
>Subject: Re: YouTube downloads fail all the time
>Newsgroups:
>alt.comp.software.firefox,alt.windows7.general;alt.comp.os.Windows-11
>X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 6.00/32.1186
>
>>I've added alt.comp.os.Windows-11 to the newsgroups cross-posted to.
>
>I screwed up doing that, so I'm reposting

I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, but I don't see any of these
messages in alt.comp.os.Windows-11. Does anyone see this there?

Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 02 Jul 2023 08:01:15 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:

>>From: Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
>>Subject: Re: YouTube downloads fail all the time
>>Newsgroups:
>>alt.comp.software.firefox,alt.windows7.general;alt.comp.os.Windows-11
>>X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 6.00/32.1186

>>>I've added alt.comp.os.Windows-11 to the newsgroups cross-posted to.

>>I screwed up doing that, so I'm reposting

>I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, but I don't see any of these
>messages in alt.comp.os.Windows-11. Does anyone see this there?

Stop fucking excessive crossposting. NEVER NEVER NEVER use a capital
letter as the name of a newsgroup.

No one in an added newsgroup appreciates coming into the middle of a
thread. Just post a SEPARATE root in the additional newsgroup and
stop crossposting.

On 02/07/2023 18:31, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> Stop fucking excessive crossposting.
>
> No one in an added newsgroup appreciates coming into the middle of a
> thread. Just post a SEPARATE root in the additional newsgroup and
> stop crossposting.

Who the fuck are you to instruct anybody here what they should and what
they should not do.

The OP can do whatever he/she wants and you can filter him/her out if
you don't approve it. It's as simple as that!!

On 2023-07-02 17:22, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Jul 2023 08:01:15 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
> wrote:
>
>> From: Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
>> Subject: Re: YouTube downloads fail all the time
>> Newsgroups:
>> alt.comp.software.firefox,alt.windows7.general;alt.comp.os.Windows-11
>> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 6.00/32.1186
>>
>>> I've added alt.comp.os.Windows-11 to the newsgroups cross-posted to.
>>
>> I screwed up doing that, so I'm reposting

....

>>> the Windows one) to restore from the image. Conversely,
>>> you can probably have a lot more images on most drives these days,
>>
>>
>> But not clones, since they would be the full size of the drive, not
>> the size of just the used space?

Some cloning methods only copy used sectors and skip the rest. Also
compression can be used. Thus the clone can be smaller.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

In message <a543aipck8br5nvm2livqj7h126iqvdjv4@4ax.com> at Sun, 2 Jul
2023 08:01:15, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes
>From: Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
>Subject: Re: YouTube downloads fail all the time
>Newsgroups:
>alt.comp.software.firefox,alt.windows7.general;alt.comp.os.Windows-11
>X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 6.00/32.1186
>
>>I've added alt.comp.os.Windows-11 to the newsgroups cross-posted to.
>
>I screwed up doing that, so I'm reposting
>
I assume the nasty person came from there )-:. We're nicer in 7 (-:
[]
>>>backup drives that are being backed up by Bart and instead use it to
>>>backup an image (or clone? Is one a better choice than the other?) of
>>
>>Each has its advantages. If it's a clone, assuming it's been made
>>correctly and whatever takes out your C: drive doesn't also take out the
>>drive you're cloning to (that of course is a concern for imaging too!),
>>then in the event, you can just switch the drivers over and be back up
>>in minutes
>
>Yes, but only if you've cloned to an internal drive.
>
>However that wouldn't be the case for me, since my drive is an M2 SSD
>and I would clone it to a spinner. I'd want to keep C: on the M2. The
>M2 and spinners are also two different sizes.
>
>So if I cloned it and C: died, I would need/want to copy the clone

In that case, I can see no point in cloning rather than imaging; if you
need something to copy it back, rather than just physically swapping
drives, then I can't see any advantage in cloning.

>back to the M2. How would I do that? Does the free Macrium come with a
>bootable utility that can do that? How about the part-of-the-OS
>utility? Can it do that?
>
Can't speak for the latter (someone said don't use it anyway), but
Macrium free does - sort of. The first time you run it (and the option
remains on subsequent runs), it offers you the option to make bootable
medium - I think it can make a bootable USB stick, but I make a CD. Up
to Macrium 6 at least, it will fit on a mini-CD, so I use one of those -
I like mini-CDs.
>
>
>
>> - the mechanical work of opening the case and fiddling with
>>the connectors and screws probably taking longer than anything else. If
>>imaging, you need to have/obtain the replacement drive, _and_ have
>>something to boot from (CD or USB) that has the necessary software on it
>>(Macrium, Bart?,
>
>No, Bart doesn't do that. It does nothing but just copy files; that's
>fine for D:'s data files, but not for C:. I like Bart because it
>starts with the previous backup, adds any new files, replaces any
>changed files, and deletes any files no longer on the drive being
>backed up. The result is that it's very fast.

Ah. Sounds identical to what SyncToy claims to do (in one of its three
modes).
>
>>the Windows one) to restore from the image. Conversely,
>>you can probably have a lot more images on most drives these days,
>
>
>But not clones, since they would be the full size of the drive, not
>the size of just the used space?
>
Sort of. Another has said good cloning software only copies the used
parts, so the actual process might be quicker, but the main difference
is that a true clone is a drive you can just physically swap in and go,
so it can't really have other things on it.
>
>>especially if you keep your C: partition small
>
>It's a 1TB partition with about 100GB used.
>
>I've never imaged or cloned before, so I'm a beginner when it comes to
>this. Am I right that an image would take up 100GB, but a clone would
>take up 1TB? If so, I think, an image would be the better choice for
>me (see below where I talk about keeping multiple generations).

I think so. Macrium free - and probably most other similar - offers
compression (choosable - I know there's at least "none" and "medium", I
think there are others), for images at least, so they could be less than
the 100GB.
>
>I would image it to a 2TB spinner.
>
>
>>you could even have
>>images for the C: partition of several different machines on it; whereas
>>if cloning, it's obviously just one drive.
>
>
>There's just one machine I'd want to image or clone--my desktop. My
>wife is no longer able to use her desktop, and I have no laptop.
>
>I'd want to have it done with a batch file that would delete the
>current image or clone, and make a new one. Or better, maybe delete
>the one that's two generations old, rename the one that's one
>generation old, and create a new one.

Macrium free has the option of deleting the oldest if there's less than
(I think) 5% free. IIRR, that's the default way it operates.
>
>Or considering that the spinner is so much larger than the 100GB used
>for C:, perhaps I could have the batch file keep the three or four
>most recent backups.

See above.
>
>And I'd like to have that bat file scheduled to run automatically at
>night once every week or so.

Ah, that'd mean using the version (of Macrium) that runs from within
Windows; I know nothing of that. That version may even have automatic
scheduling options - why not get it and have a play? (It isn't two
different downloads: what you download is the version that runs within
Windows; there's a menu option within that to make the bootable medium
that has the run-from-CD version on it.)
>
>So given my situation, what do you (or anyone else here) think would
>be the better choice for me--image or clone?
>
Definitely image. If you're never going to physically put the drive
you've been saving to in and boot from it, there's no advantage (that I
can see, anyway) in cloning to it.
[]
>>easier - plus, I feel a slight greater ease in having something other
>>than the OS do it.
>
>Just curious, why?

Just a feeling - I like having something completely separate from the
OS, back up the OS. (Not _quite_ a mistrust of Microsoft, since what
boots - from the CD in my case - and then runs Macrium from the CD, _is_
I think a version of Windows.)
>
>> Although I always do my imaging (I image rather than
>>clone)
>
>Just curious, why?
>
As discussed already - I'm imaging to an external drive, which I would
restore to a new internal one if the internal one broke - and, I can
keep more than one image.
>
>>by booting from the Macrium CD, Macrium _can_ run (at least the
>>imaging/cloning part; obviously not the restoring!) from within Windows.
>>(I don't, as I feel uneasy backing up a running system.)
>
>Just curious, why? Is there a risk in doing that that I'm not aware
>of?

I'm pretty sure Macrium (and the other similar utilities) have got past
the problems. I just don't feel secure asking, in effect, a running
system to back itself up while actually running. (There probably are
_tiny_ risks, probably not a worry in practice: I expect Paul could
elucidate.)
>
>> I'm pretty sure
>>the part-of-the-OS utility can be run from within Windows too.
>
>Can some who knows "the part-of-the-OS utility" for Windows 11 jump in
>here and provide some more information? What's its name? Can it be run
>from within Windows? How does it compare to Macrium Reflect? Can it do
>either an image or a clone? Given my situation described about, which
>would be a better choice for me--Macrium Reflect or the part-of-the-OS
>utility.

If the person who said don't use it is wrong, then obviously it would
avoid the extra step of downloading Macrium, and making the boot CD (or
USB). Although to be usable in the case of disaster, you'd _still_ need
a bootable something: I believe the Windows 7 install DVD can be used as
a "rescue disc" of this sort, but do you actually have such a DVD? (If
not, I _think_ there's a means of making a "rescue disc" in the OS,
though not sure. I looked into the built-in mechanism and found it more
complicated to understand, but that might just be a matter of lack of
familiarity.
>
>Again, I'm a newbie when it comes to imaging and cloning, so I would
>greatly appreciate any additional help from you, John, or anyone else
>here who knows more about this than I do,

All I know is Macrium, and only using that - both for imaging and
restoring-from-image - by booting from its CD. FWIW, Macrium 5 (so I
presume 6) worked up to some version of Windows 10, but after some point
(of W10's self-updating) it wouldn't, and you had to use Macrium 7.
Which wouldn't fit on a mini-CD - I can't remember if it needed a DVD,
or just a full-sized CD. Certainly, when booting from it, 7 takes a LONG
time - many minutes - to load the OS (cut-down Windows), to the extent
that I thought it had crashed the two times I used it: the system seems
to freeze. 5 and 6 are slowish (compared to a normal Windows boot from
HD or SSD), but at least there's a progress bar and they don't take
_that_ long.
>
>>>
>>>Yes, an internal drive for backup isn't as safe as an eternal drive,
>>>but as far as I'm concerned, that's much more important for data files
>>>than for C: If I lost all my data files on D, that would be a
>>>catastrophe, but if I lost everything on C: without a backup, it would
>>>be a pain in the ass (arse), but I'd survive.
>>
>>I often hear US folk talking about their tax affairs in this respect,
>>and I understand. (The _majority_ of UK folk - certainly those employed
>>by an employer - don't _do_ tax returns most years.)
>
>My taxes have become much more complicated in recent years. I used to
>do it myself with TurboTax, but I now have an accountant do it for me.
>But I do need my Quicken files to supply data for the accountant,
>
I haven't done a tax return since my employer was taken over and the
employee share option scheme had to be terminated early, or something
like that, thus complicating matters; I _think_ that was about 2000.
(Well, I did it for a year or two after that - once they've got you onto
their system as doing returns, they expect you to continue to; I
eventually wrote to them saying basically "I'm back to being an ordinary
Joe with an employer and just a few share dividends below the threshold
- can I go back to being a normal taxpayer", and they agreed. [I suspect
not just for my benefit: obviously if I continued doing them, someone at
the tax office had to process them.])
[]
>Yes, of course. I understand that. I was simply pointing out why I
>wouldn't find it a hobby of any interest. I don't want to start
>finding third cousins and introducing myself to them.

In message <MPG.3f0b35a8dd89240c990164@news.individual.net> at Sun, 2
Jul 2023 08:20:47, Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> writes
>On Sat, 1 Jul 2023 11:52:39 +0100, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>> No - in the event of hardware failure, image unlikely to be of use as
>> unlikely to be able to find hardware to which the OS (and all software)
>> can be restored - and data certainly needs more often than that.
>
>Are you sure about that? I was under the impression that an image
>could e restored to pretty much any disk, assuming of course that the
>disk is big enough.
>
>
Yes, if it's only the drive that's failed; I was assuming that after a
decade or two, the poster might find other parts of the computer had
failed, and might not be regenerable. (Or even just the drive, but you
be unable to find one with the same interface: I don't think anyone's
selling EIDE drives now, and I suspect even SATA will disappear soon.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

While no one was paying attention, weather reports became accurate and the
news became fiction. Did not see that coming. - Scott Adams, 2015

On Sun, 2 Jul 2023 20:58:23 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk>
wrote:

>In message <a543aipck8br5nvm2livqj7h126iqvdjv4@4ax.com> at Sun, 2 Jul
>2023 08:01:15, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes
>>From: Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
>>Subject: Re: YouTube downloads fail all the time
>>Newsgroups:
>>alt.comp.software.firefox,alt.windows7.general;alt.comp.os.Windows-11
>>X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 6.00/32.1186
>>
>>>I've added alt.comp.os.Windows-11 to the newsgroups cross-posted to.
>>
>>I screwed up doing that, so I'm reposting
>>
>I assume the nasty person came from there )-:.

Yes, "nasty" is a good word for him. I don't care what groups he
subscribes to. There are nasty people in almost all newsgroups.

>We're nicer in 7 (-:
>[]
>>>>backup drives that are being backed up by Bart and instead use it to
>>>>backup an image (or clone? Is one a better choice than the other?) of
>>>
>>>Each has its advantages. If it's a clone, assuming it's been made
>>>correctly and whatever takes out your C: drive doesn't also take out the
>>>drive you're cloning to (that of course is a concern for imaging too!),
>>>then in the event, you can just switch the drivers over and be back up
>>>in minutes
>>
>>Yes, but only if you've cloned to an internal drive.
>>
>>However that wouldn't be the case for me, since my drive is an M2 SSD
>>and I would clone it to a spinner. I'd want to keep C: on the M2. The
>>M2 and spinners are also two different sizes.
>>
>>So if I cloned it and C: died, I would need/want to copy the clone
>
>In that case, I can see no point in cloning rather than imaging;

Thanks. That's what I suspected was the case.

>if you
>need something to copy it back, rather than just physically swapping
>drives, then I can't see any advantage in cloning.

Sounds right to me.

>>back to the M2. How would I do that? Does the free Macrium come with a
>>bootable utility that can do that? How about the part-of-the-OS
>>utility? Can it do that?
>>
>Can't speak for the latter (someone said don't use it anyway),

As I said in a later message, I can't. It won't image to an internal
drive.

>but
>Macrium free does - sort of. The first time you run it (and the option
>remains on subsequent runs), it offers you the option to make bootable
>medium - I think it can make a bootable USB stick, but I make a CD. Up
>to Macrium 6 at least, it will fit on a mini-CD, so I use one of those -
>I like mini-CDs.

No time now, but I'll probably try tomorrow. I think I'd prefer to use
a thumb drive, since an unused thumb drive is less likely to die that
a CD.

>>
>>
>>> - the mechanical work of opening the case and fiddling with
>>>the connectors and screws probably taking longer than anything else. If
>>>imaging, you need to have/obtain the replacement drive, _and_ have
>>>something to boot from (CD or USB) that has the necessary software on it
>>>(Macrium, Bart?,
>>
>>No, Bart doesn't do that. It does nothing but just copy files; that's
>>fine for D:'s data files, but not for C:. I like Bart because it
>>starts with the previous backup, adds any new files, replaces any
>>changed files, and deletes any files no longer on the drive being
>>backed up. The result is that it's very fast.
>
>Ah. Sounds identical to what SyncToy claims to do (in one of its three
>modes).
>>
>>>the Windows one) to restore from the image. Conversely,
>>>you can probably have a lot more images on most drives these days,
>>
>>
>>But not clones, since they would be the full size of the drive, not
>>the size of just the used space?
>>
>Sort of. Another has said good cloning software only copies the used
>parts, so the actual process might be quicker, but the main difference
>is that a true clone is a drive you can just physically swap in and go,
>so it can't really have other things on it.
>>
>>>especially if you keep your C: partition small
>>
>>It's a 1TB partition with about 100GB used.
>>
>>I've never imaged or cloned before, so I'm a beginner when it comes to
>>this. Am I right that an image would take up 100GB, but a clone would
>>take up 1TB? If so, I think, an image would be the better choice for
>>me (see below where I talk about keeping multiple generations).
>
>I think so. Macrium free - and probably most other similar - offers
>compression (choosable - I know there's at least "none" and "medium", I
>think there are others), for images at least, so they could be less than
>the 100GB.

Even without compression, I could fit 9 or 10 images on the drive, and
that's more than I would want.

Thanks again.

>>
>>I would image it to a 2TB spinner.
>>
>>
>>>you could even have
>>>images for the C: partition of several different machines on it; whereas
>>>if cloning, it's obviously just one drive.
>>
>>
>>There's just one machine I'd want to image or clone--my desktop. My
>>wife is no longer able to use her desktop, and I have no laptop.
>>
>>I'd want to have it done with a batch file that would delete the
>>current image or clone, and make a new one. Or better, maybe delete
>>the one that's two generations old, rename the one that's one
>>generation old, and create a new one.
>
>Macrium free has the option of deleting the oldest if there's less than
>(I think) 5% free. IIRR, that's the default way it operates.
>>
>>Or considering that the spinner is so much larger than the 100GB used
>>for C:, perhaps I could have the batch file keep the three or four
>>most recent backups.
>
>See above.
>>
>>And I'd like to have that bat file scheduled to run automatically at
>>night once every week or so.
>
>Ah, that'd mean using the version (of Macrium) that runs from within
>Windows; I know nothing of that. That version may even have automatic
>scheduling options - why not get it and have a play? (It isn't two
>different downloads: what you download is the version that runs within
>Windows; there's a menu option within that to make the bootable medium
>that has the run-from-CD version on it.)
>>
>>So given my situation, what do you (or anyone else here) think would
>>be the better choice for me--image or clone?
>>
>Definitely image. If you're never going to physically put the drive
>you've been saving to in and boot from it, there's no advantage (that I
>can see, anyway) in cloning to it.

Thanks.

]
>>>easier - plus, I feel a slight greater ease in having something other
>>>than the OS do it.
>>
>>Just curious, why?
>
>Just a feeling - I like having something completely separate from the
>OS, back up the OS. (Not _quite_ a mistrust of Microsoft, since what
>boots - from the CD in my case - and then runs Macrium from the CD, _is_
>I think a version of Windows.)

I don't quite mistrust Microsoft either, but I make my choice on what
I think is the best product, not what company it's from. I use some
Microsoft programs, but very few.

>>> Although I always do my imaging (I image rather than
>>>clone)
>>
>>Just curious, why?
>>
>As discussed already - I'm imaging to an external drive, which I would
>restore to a new internal one if the internal one broke - and, I can
>keep more than one image.

Understood. Thank once more.

>>>by booting from the Macrium CD, Macrium _can_ run (at least the
>>>imaging/cloning part; obviously not the restoring!) from within Windows.
>>>(I don't, as I feel uneasy backing up a running system.)
>>
>>Just curious, why? Is there a risk in doing that that I'm not aware
>>of?
>
>I'm pretty sure Macrium (and the other similar utilities) have got past
>the problems. I just don't feel secure asking, in effect, a running
>system to back itself up while actually running. (There probably are
>_tiny_ risks, probably not a worry in practice: I expect Paul could
>elucidate.)

I hope he pops in with a comment.

>>> I'm pretty sure
>>>the part-of-the-OS utility can be run from within Windows too.
>>
>>Can some who knows "the part-of-the-OS utility" for Windows 11 jump in
>>here and provide some more information? What's its name? Can it be run
>>from within Windows? How does it compare to Macrium Reflect? Can it do
>>either an image or a clone? Given my situation described about, which
>>would be a better choice for me--Macrium Reflect or the part-of-the-OS
>>utility.
>
>If the person who said don't use it is wrong, then obviously it would
>avoid the extra step of downloading Macrium, and making the boot CD (or
>USB).

On 7/2/23 3:58 PM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> In message <a543aipck8br5nvm2livqj7h126iqvdjv4@4ax.com> at Sun, 2 Jul
> 2023 08:01:15, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes
>> From: Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
>> Subject: Re: YouTube downloads fail all the time
>> Newsgroups:
>> alt.comp.software.firefox,alt.windows7.general;alt.comp.os.Windows-11
>> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 6.00/32.1186
>>
>>> I've added alt.comp.os.Windows-11 to the newsgroups cross-posted to.
>>
>> I screwed up doing that, so I'm reposting
>>
> I assume the nasty person came from there )-:. We're nicer in 7 (-:
> []
>>>> backup drives that are being backed up by Bart and instead use it to
>>>> backup an image (or clone? Is one a better choice than the other?) of
>>>
>>> Each has its advantages. If it's a clone, assuming it's been made
>>> correctly and whatever takes out your C: drive doesn't also take out
>>> the
>>> drive you're cloning to (that of course is a concern for imaging too!),
>>> then in the event, you can just switch the drivers over and be back up
>>> in minutes
>>
>> Yes, but only  if you've cloned to an internal drive.
>>
>> However that wouldn't be the case for me, since my drive is an M2 SSD
>> and I would clone it to  a spinner. I'd want to keep C: on the M2. The
>> M2 and spinners are also two different sizes.
>>
>> So if I cloned it and C: died, I would need/want to copy the clone
>
> In that case, I can see no point in cloning rather than imaging; if
> you need something to copy it back, rather than just physically
> swapping drives, then I can't see any advantage in cloning.
>
>> back to the M2. How would I do that? Does the free Macrium come with a
>> bootable utility that can do that? How about the part-of-the-OS
>> utility? Can it do that?
>>
> Can't speak for the latter (someone said don't use it anyway), but
> Macrium free does - sort of. The first time you run it (and the option
> remains on subsequent runs), it offers you the option to make bootable
> medium - I think it can make a bootable USB stick, but I make a CD. Up
> to Macrium 6 at least, it will fit on a mini-CD, so I use one of those
> - I like mini-CDs.
>>
>>
>>
>>> - the mechanical work of opening the case and fiddling with
>>> the connectors and screws probably taking longer than anything else. If
>>> imaging, you need to have/obtain the replacement drive, _and_ have
>>> something to boot from (CD or USB) that has the necessary software
>>> on it
>>> (Macrium, Bart?,
>>
>> No, Bart doesn't do that. It does nothing but just copy files; that's
>> fine for D:'s data files, but not for C:. I like Bart because it
>> starts with the previous backup, adds any new files, replaces any
>> changed files, and deletes any files no longer on the drive being
>> backed up. The result is that it's very fast.
>
> Ah. Sounds identical to what SyncToy claims to do (in one of its three
> modes).
>>
>>> the Windows one) to restore from the image. Conversely,
>>> you can probably have a lot more images on most drives these days,
>>
>>
>> But not clones, since they would be the full size of the drive, not
>> the size of just the used space?
>>
> Sort of. Another has said good cloning software only copies the used
> parts, so the actual process might be quicker, but the main difference
> is that a true clone is a drive you can just physically swap in and
> go, so it can't really have other things on it.
>>
>>> especially if you keep your C: partition small
>>
>> It's a 1TB partition with about 100GB used.
>>
>> I've never imaged or cloned before, so I'm a beginner when it comes to
>> this. Am I right that an image would take up 100GB, but a clone would
>> take up 1TB? If so, I think, an image would be the better choice for
>> me (see below where I talk about keeping multiple generations).
>
> I think so. Macrium free - and probably most other similar - offers
> compression (choosable - I know there's at least "none" and "medium",
> I think there are others), for images at least, so they could be less
> than the 100GB.
>>
>> I would image it to a 2TB spinner.
>>
>>
>>> you could even have
>>> images for the C: partition of several different machines on it;
>>> whereas
>>> if cloning, it's obviously just one drive.
>>
>>
>> There's just one machine I'd want to image or clone--my desktop. My
>> wife is no longer able to use her desktop, and I have no laptop.
>>
>> I'd want to have it done with a batch file that would delete the
>> current image or clone, and make a new one. Or better, maybe delete
>> the  one that's two generations old, rename the one that's one
>> generation old, and create a new one.
>
> Macrium free has the option of deleting the oldest if there's less
> than (I think) 5% free. IIRR, that's the default way it operates.
>>
>> Or considering that the spinner is so much larger than the 100GB used
>> for C:, perhaps I could have the batch file keep the three or four
>> most recent backups.
>
> See above.
>>
>> And I'd like to have that bat file scheduled to run automatically at
>> night once every week or so.
>
> Ah, that'd mean using the version (of Macrium) that runs from within
> Windows; I know nothing of that. That version may even have automatic
> scheduling options - why not get it and have a play? (It isn't two
> different downloads: what you download is the version that runs within
> Windows; there's a menu option within that to make the bootable medium
> that has the run-from-CD version on it.)
>>
>> So given my situation, what do you (or anyone else here) think would
>> be the better choice for me--image or clone?
>>
> Definitely image. If you're never going to physically put the drive
> you've been saving to in and boot from it, there's no advantage (that
> I can see, anyway) in cloning to it.
> []
>>> easier - plus, I feel a slight greater ease in having something other
>>> than the OS do it.
>>
>> Just curious, why?
>
> Just a feeling - I like having something completely separate from the
> OS, back up the OS. (Not _quite_ a mistrust of Microsoft, since what
> boots - from the CD in my case - and then runs Macrium from the CD,
> _is_ I think a version of Windows.)
>>
>>> Although I always do my imaging (I image rather than
>>> clone)
>>
>> Just curious, why?
>>
> As discussed already - I'm imaging to an external drive, which I would
> restore to a new internal one if the internal one broke - and, I can
> keep more than one image.
>>
>>> by booting from the Macrium CD, Macrium _can_ run (at least the
>>> imaging/cloning part; obviously not the restoring!) from within
>>> Windows.
>>> (I don't, as I feel uneasy backing up a running system.)
>>
>> Just curious, why? Is there a risk in doing that that I'm not aware
>> of?
>
> I'm pretty sure Macrium (and the other similar utilities) have got
> past the problems. I just don't feel secure asking, in effect, a
> running system to back itself up while actually running. (There
> probably are _tiny_ risks, probably not a worry in practice: I expect
> Paul could elucidate.)
>>
>>> I'm pretty sure
>>> the part-of-the-OS utility can be run from within Windows too.
>>
>> Can some who knows "the part-of-the-OS utility" for Windows 11 jump in
>> here and provide some more information? What's its name? Can it be run
>> from within Windows? How does it compare to Macrium Reflect? Can it do
>> either an image or a clone? Given my situation described about, which
>> would be a better choice for me--Macrium Reflect or the part-of-the-OS
>> utility.
>
> If the person who said don't use it is wrong, then obviously it would
> avoid the extra step of downloading Macrium, and making the boot CD
> (or USB). Although to be usable in the case of disaster, you'd _still_
> need a bootable something: I believe the Windows 7 install DVD can be
> used as a "rescue disc" of this sort, but do you actually have such a
> DVD? (If not, I _think_ there's a means of making a "rescue disc" in
> the OS, though not sure. I looked into the built-in mechanism and
> found it more complicated to understand, but that might just be a
> matter of lack of familiarity.
>>
>> Again, I'm a newbie when it comes to imaging and cloning, so I would
>> greatly appreciate any additional help from you, John, or anyone else
>> here who knows more about this than I do,
>
> All I know is Macrium, and only using that - both for imaging and
> restoring-from-image - by booting from its CD. FWIW, Macrium 5 (so I
> presume 6) worked up to some version of Windows 10, but after some
> point (of W10's self-updating) it wouldn't, and you had to use Macrium
> 7. Which wouldn't fit on a mini-CD - I can't remember if it needed a
> DVD, or just a full-sized CD. Certainly, when booting from it, 7 takes
> a LONG time - many minutes - to load the OS (cut-down Windows), to the
> extent that I thought it had crashed the two times I used it: the
> system seems to freeze. 5 and 6 are slowish (compared to a normal
> Windows boot from HD or SSD), but at least there's a progress bar and
> they don't take _that_ long.
>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, an internal drive for backup isn't as safe as an eternal drive,
>>>> but as far as I'm concerned, that's much more important for data files
>>>> than for C: If I lost all my data files on D, that would be a
>>>> catastrophe, but if I lost everything on C: without a backup, it would
>>>> be a pain in the ass (arse), but I'd survive.
>>>
>>> I often hear US folk talking about their tax affairs in this respect,
>>> and I understand. (The _majority_ of UK folk - certainly those employed
>>> by an employer - don't _do_ tax returns most years.)
>>
>> My taxes have become much more complicated in recent years. I used to
>> do it myself with TurboTax, but I now have an accountant do it for me.
>> But I do need my Quicken files to supply data for the accountant,
>>
> I haven't done a tax return since my employer was taken over and the
> employee share option scheme had to be terminated early, or something
> like that, thus complicating matters; I _think_ that was about 2000.
> (Well, I did it for a year or two after that - once they've got you
> onto their system as doing returns, they expect you to continue to; I
> eventually wrote to them saying basically "I'm back to being an
> ordinary Joe with an employer and just a few share dividends below the
> threshold - can I go back to being a normal taxpayer", and they
> agreed. [I suspect not just for my benefit: obviously if I continued
> doing them, someone at the tax office had to process them.])
> []
>> Yes, of course. I understand that. I was simply pointing out why I
>> wouldn't find it a hobby of any interest. I don't want to start
>> finding third cousins and introducing myself to them.
>
> Maybe you have another data-intensive hobby? Or just your tax details.
>>
>> My paternal grandparents must have seen me when I was an infant, but I
>> have no memory of ever meeting them; my parents were divorced when I
>> was two. I didn't even know their names until a friend who was an
>> expert in genealogy found them for me .I didn't even know how to spell
>> "genealogy" before then.
>
> Yes, it's an anomaly - -alogy rather than the more usual -ology. (-:
> []
> (There is a _minor_ benefit to at least knowing your biological
> ancestry to maybe two or three generations, at least for some people:
> genetic diseases. Including ones that aren't known about yet.)
Does Macrium require you to to install it and run in a M$ environment,
or can it be used in a Linux platform?

In message <b9n3ai1f6vau04srjd96t9ceskgbekg13n@4ax.com> at Sun, 2 Jul
2023 13:43:16, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes
[]
>Yes, "nasty" is a good word for him. I don't care what groups he
>subscribes to. There are nasty people in almost all newsgroups.
>
I couldn't be bothered to be diplomatic (-:
[]
>No time now, but I'll probably try tomorrow. I think I'd prefer to use
>a thumb drive, since an unused thumb drive is less likely to die that
>a CD.
>
Interesting thought. I was going to say "really?", then I saw you'd said
"unused". I guess I wouldn't trust myself to keep a thumb drive unused!
[]
>I don't quite mistrust Microsoft either, but I make my choice on what
>I think is the best product, not what company it's from. I use some
>Microsoft programs, but very few.
>
In that case, you probably want to try other alternatives too: there is
(or used to be; since Macrium works for me I haven't kept up) one main
competitor. I _think_ it's Acronis. I have a feeling EaseUS may have one
too.
[]
>>>expert in genealogy found them for me .I didn't even know how to spell
>>>"genealogy" before then.
>>
>>Yes, it's an anomaly - -alogy rather than the more usual -ology. (-:
>
>Geneanomaly?
>
(-: [I just meant most other "studies" are -ology: proctology,
vulcanology, geology, and so on.]
>
>>(There is a _minor_ benefit to at least knowing your biological ancestry
>>to maybe two or three generations, at least for some people: genetic
>>diseases. Including ones that aren't known about yet.)
>
>Perhaps, but at my age (85), I don't care much anymore.

But your children and grandchildren might.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Less rules means fewer grammar? - Marjorie in UMRA, 2014-1-28 13:14

On Mon, 3 Jul 2023 00:33:43 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk>
wrote:

>In message <b9n3ai1f6vau04srjd96t9ceskgbekg13n@4ax.com> at Sun, 2 Jul
>2023 13:43:16, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes
>[]
>>Yes, "nasty" is a good word for him. I don't care what groups he
>>subscribes to. There are nasty people in almost all newsgroups.
>>
>I couldn't be bothered to be diplomatic (-:
>[]
>>No time now, but I'll probably try tomorrow. I think I'd prefer to use
>>a thumb drive, since an unused thumb drive is less likely to die that
>>a CD.
>>
>Interesting thought. I was going to say "really?", then I saw you'd said
>"unused". I guess I wouldn't trust myself to keep a thumb drive unused!

I should have been clearer. What I meant was that if I created a CD,
and it then sat around unused for a couple of years before I needed to
use it, it might no longer still be readable. That's happened to me
before.

But if I created a thumb drive, and it then sat around unused for a
couple of years before I needed to use, it would probably still be
readable.

>>I don't quite mistrust Microsoft either, but I make my choice on what
>>I think is the best product, not what company it's from. I use some
>>Microsoft programs, but very few.
>>
>In that case, you probably want to try other alternatives too: there is
>(or used to be; since Macrium works for me I haven't kept up) one main
>competitor. I _think_ it's Acronis. I have a feeling EaseUS may have one
>too.
>[]
>>>>expert in genealogy found them for me .I didn't even know how to spell
>>>>"genealogy" before then.
>>>
>>>Yes, it's an anomaly - -alogy rather than the more usual -ology. (-:
>>
>>Geneanomaly?
>>
>(-: [I just meant most other "studies" are -ology: proctology,
>vulcanology, geology, and so on.]

Yes, I know. "Geneanomaly" was my coined word, made up to be a little
joke.

>>
>>>(There is a _minor_ benefit to at least knowing your biological ancestry
>>>to maybe two or three generations, at least for some people: genetic
>>>diseases. Including ones that aren't known about yet.)
>>
>>Perhaps, but at my age (85), I don't care much anymore.
>
>But your children and grandchildren might.

If so, they are the ones who should do the genealogical studies, not
me.

On 7/2/2023 11:22 AM, Ken Blake wrote:

>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I've correctly read what a web search
> found, Windows Backup can not back up to an internal drive. So I'll
> rule that out as a possibility and look into the free Macrium Reflect.

If you want to have a play with it, you don't need the WB GUI (except if
you want to schedule stuff).

Admin terminal session.

wbadmin start backup /? # Get help with Windows Backup manual backup -- the following are minimal backups so you can boot

******* This session was to the same spindle as the C: drive -- S: is the data partition *******
******* This backup was stopped, because writing to the same spindle is slow and boring ********

PS> WBADMIN START BACKUP -backupTarget:S: -allCritical
wbadmin 1.0 - Backup command-line tool
(C) Copyright Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Retrieving volume information...
This will back up (EFI System Partition),W11HOME(C:),(\\?\Volume{76a399bc-6bb5-411d-83d9-af677d96febc}\) to S:.
Do you want to start the backup operation?
[Y] Yes [N] No y <=== Adding -quiet to the command, removes this prompt

The backup storage location that you selected is on the same physical hard \
disk as your operating system. If the hard disk fails, you may lose both \____ You are warned about "same spindle" ...
your system data and backup data. / But the backup still happens.

The backup operation to S: is starting.
Creating a shadow copy of the volumes specified for backup... # EFI
Creating a shadow copy of the volumes specified for backup... # Microsoft Reserved 16MB no file system (invisible)
Creating a shadow copy of the volumes specified for backup... # C: NTFS
Creating a shadow copy of the volumes specified for backup... # System Reserved with WinRE.wim emergency boot in it
Creating a backup of volume (EFI System Partition) (100.00 MB), copied (100%). # Just to copy 100MB, took a minute
# I stopped the same-spindle backup here, ctrl-C
# It would have taken all day to finish.

******* This backup is from Disk 1 inside the PC, to Disk 2 inside the PC (different internal spindle) *******
******* This one was allowed to finish. No warning message is issued *******

PS> WBADMIN START BACKUP -backupTarget:D: -allCritical
wbadmin 1.0 - Backup command-line tool
(C) Copyright Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Retrieving volume information...
This will back up (EFI System Partition),W11HOME(C:),(\\?\Volume{76a399bc-6bb5-411d-83d9-af677d96febc}\) to D:.
Do you want to start the backup operation?
[Y] Yes [N] No y

The backup operation to D: is starting.
Creating a shadow copy of the volumes specified for backup...
Creating a shadow copy of the volumes specified for backup...
Creating a shadow copy of the volumes specified for backup...
Creating a shadow copy of the volumes specified for backup...
The backup of volume (EFI System Partition) (100.00 MB) completed successfully.
The backup of volume W11HOME(C:) completed successfully.
The backup of volume (646.00 MB) completed successfully.
Summary of the backup operation:
------------------

The backup operation successfully completed.
The backup of volume (EFI System Partition) (100.00 MB) completed successfully.
The backup of volume W11HOME(C:) completed successfully.
The backup of volume (646.00 MB) completed successfully.
Log of files successfully backed up:
C:\WINDOWS\Logs\WindowsBackup\Backup-03-07-2023_12-45-38.log

*******

To stop a wbadmin backup operation which is currently running, there are two steps.

1) Press ctrl-c in the Terminal window. This stops wbadmin.

2) Using Task Manager, locate the running task "wbengine", which is still writing.
End the process. The writing stops. Discard any folders which represent wasted
space on the output volume.

You can add additional partitions to the backup, by naming them in a separate
passed parameter. Consult the help for more details (examples).

WBADMIN START BACKUP -backupTarget:D: -allCritical -include:s:,t:,w: -quiet

That backs up EFI System Partition, C: partition, System Reserved 646MB partition <=== critical to booting
S: T: W: <=== my data partitions

And places them on Disk #2 spindle D: .

*******

You can see that backing up partitions that cannot have drive letters (hidden) is a PITA.
Try and figure out what their example in the help is. Random left-over System Reserved
ones, look like this. I have W11 and W10 on my disk, and two System Reserved partitions.
One of the System Reserved, has to be named using this flavor of syntax.

\\?\Volume{cc566d14-44a0-11d9-9d93-806e6f6e6963}\

The third party utility "dd.exe" can give you those identifiers.

dd --list

This item, is one of the hidden ones on my Disk #1 (belongs to my Windows 10 install).

\\.\Volume{af386bcf-16c0-483f-a84b-b310cc27c8e8}\
link to \\?\Device\HarddiskVolume6 <=== correlate with Disk Management GUI view.
fixed media
Not mounted

*******

The output options are:

1) place backup on same spindle

2) use a second disk inside the computer for output

3) Use an external USB hard drive (the one you put in the wall safe)

4) A File Share on yet another computer. Note that the rules for this
are quite different. The operator must be aware that only one
OS copy can be stored this way, rather than dated folders. And, that
the ACLs must be considered from a security perspective. None of this
is particularly a big deal, for a "Pro" :-) A Linux Grandma could handle
this while stirring a cup of noodles with the other hand. Over on the
File Share, you can "move" the backup to a safe place, to implement your
own dated OS copies (if you want to do monthly backups for a year, it would
be twelve folders of some sort).

If you rename the top-level folder on the file share, to something
descriptive, that will prevent wbadmin from overwriting the single backup.

How they store the output is weirdness, but I don't want to spoil all
the surprises. It's just a series of .vhdx containers. They can't be accessed
by 7-ZIP (the format is not supported), but the individual .vhdx, you can
right-click them and Mount them. Watch in your Disk Management window, with the
window set full sized, to see what the mount looks like. The .vhdx can also be
dis-mounted (you don't have to reboot to get rid of it). When a .vhdx is mounted,
you can use File Explorer to extract your taxes.txt .

Paul