On 12/1/21 16:35, Diego Garcia wrote:
> On Wed, 01 Dec 2021 11:29:52 -0800, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>
>>
>> To get Linux running however on a new machine
>> is a thrill. To see my installation boot-up every day is a
>> thrill. While it may take more to thrill you but each time I see my
>> login requested I am happier.
>>
>
> Excellent!
>
> Now your next step is to explore all of the configuration
> possibilities and then begin to tweak and tweak and tweak.

No it is not. It is to be content with my circumstances
and not exhaust myself.
>
> Then read the many documents and tutorials available
> on GNU/Linux fundamentals. Especially, the Linux From
> Scratch documents will guide you.
>
> After sufficient study, you will inevitably come to know
> that GNU/Linux is quite tractable and that RedHat corruptions
> like systemd are pure garbage.

Of course it can be tractable. i have system tamed
by people who have been at it longer than I have, I spent
my efforts in the 80s and 90s on lesser equipment and while
what I learned is helpful to more people than myself now
as I approach the end of my life is not the time to worry about
creating my own system.
>
> Do not allow the blinded distro lackeys, who are abundant
> on any forum, to influence your decision. These sheeple
> do nothing other than freeload. They contribute nothing
> beyond their own deluded bias.

Oh over on the forum we have testers, coders, packagers and
poets. They know what they want and with a little bit of input they
produce fine work.

>
> Remember: GNU/Linux was created for computing freedom
> and independence. Any distro that does not respect such
> ideals should be shunned and buried.

The Ideal was that Linus should have a working Unix-like
system on a computer he could afford, And that the fellows working
on a Unix-like OS in the GNU organization could have a working
kernel. HURD is still brewing afaik. Linux was there,

My preference would have been to have an Amiga-like OS
that gave me a reliable experience. AmigaOS lacked memory
protection. I had spent the last few years before AmigaOS
folded learning every one of the limited commands that were
available.
Now my requirements matched those of Mandriva 2006
according to a friend now gone.
Eventually through a online friend, a Norwegian SysAdm,
I got copies of the Mandriva isos on DVD copied them to a cheap
laptop running XP and got them written to 6 CDs. I installed
them and it was not that much different than installing AmigaOS
from 6 floppy disks.
Mandriva and KDE won my hearts as I expored and adjusted
my configurations. Mandriva did not work for me after 2011 despite
my requests for assistance with it. I was pretty bummed out but
I started testing forks of it. Mageia would not boot on the
newer, more expensive laptop so I tried PCLinuxOS in 2014 or so.

bliss - brought to you by the power and ease of PCLinuxOS
and a minor case of hypergraphia

On 02.12.2021 at 00:35, Diego Garcia scribbled:

> Then read the many documents and tutorials available
> on GNU/Linux fundamentals. Especially, the Linux From
> Scratch documents will guide you.
>
> After sufficient study, you will inevitably come to know
> that GNU/Linux is quite tractable and that RedHat corruptions
> like systemd are pure garbage.
>
> Do not allow the blinded distro lackeys, [...]

Ladies and Gentlemen, I think we've discovered the new Usenet identity
of the poster formerly known as "F. Russell" and "FR". And many
other identities before those.

Isn't that right, Alan Connor, oops, I mean, Diego? ;)

--
With respect,
= Aragorn =

On 12/01/2021 02:21 AM, Diego Garcia wrote:
>> On 11/29/2021 03:40 PM, Diego Garcia wrote:
>>
>>> <snip> courtesy of
>>> the GNOME/freedesktop faggots, does this lunacy prevail.
>>>
>>
>> Intolerant. Hostile. Homophobic.
>>
>
> That statement was a deliberate test. Sophisticated people will be able
> to see beyond those meaningless garnishments and grasp the true
> meaning.
>
> YOU failed.

You made the statement. And I don't know you enough to recognize your
games. So, I see it as a your fail if it was a test. Besides, whether it
was or not, please feel free to take it back or apologize for it.

> YOU are probably 5% Linux and 95% Mickeysoft anyway.

Wrong again.

Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> writes:
> On 02.12.2021 at 00:35, Diego Garcia scribbled:
>> Then read the many documents and tutorials available on GNU/Linux
>> fundamentals. Especially, the Linux From Scratch documents will
>> guide you.
>>
>> After sufficient study, you will inevitably come to know that
>> GNU/Linux is quite tractable and that RedHat corruptions like systemd
>> are pure garbage.
>>
>> Do not allow the blinded distro lackeys, [...]
>
> Ladies and Gentlemen, I think we've discovered the new Usenet identity
> of the poster formerly known as "F. Russell" and "FR". And many
> other identities before those.

I think you’re probably right. Obsessed with performance and
customization, hates the mainstream, doesn’t understand that not
everyone shares their hobby.

OTOH my impression of ‘F Russell’ is that they would have managed to
figure out the df issue at the top of the thread for themselves.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

In <20211202035030.59d80315@nx-74205> Aragorn:

[Snip ...]

> formerly known as "F. Russell" and "FR". And many
> other identities before those.
> Isn't that right, Alan Connor, oops, I mean, Diego? ;)

+1

Went sideways deja vu with me, from about their third post. Ergo
plonked pronto.

--
Regards, Weird (Harold Stevens) * IMPORTANT EMAIL INFO FOLLOWS *
Pardon any bogus email addresses (wookie) in place for spambots.
Really, it's (wyrd) at att, dotted with net. * DO NOT SPAM IT. *
I toss GoogleGroup (http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/).

On 01/12/2021 23:34, Diego Garcia wrote:
> On Wed, 01 Dec 2021 20:20:46 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>>
>> These days I just want the bastards to work. I've got better things to do
>>
>> There is, if you are building custom applications on top
>>
>
> A true craftsman has a deep respect and admiration for the quality
> of his tools.
>
> Maybe you create just using toolkits, like Mickeysoft .Net, and
> cannot fathom the intricate infrastructure?
>
No, I write HTML/CSS and JavaScript, C, PHP and mysql.

All I want is a stable implementation of apache, mysql and NFS file
share support.
Linux is not a tool, it is simply a stable workbench.

The tools are those languages.

--
“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere,
diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.”
― Groucho Marx

Le 30-11-2021, Diego Garcia <dg@chaotic.info> a écrit :
> On Tue, 30 Nov 2021 12:40:56 +0000, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Every user should have his own personal distro.
>>
>> That would be impractical for most users and a ridiculous waste of time
>> and effort for the rest.
>
> I devote about 30 minutes maximum each week in maintaining my custom
> "distro."

It's a lot of time.

> There is no real argument against doing this.

The argument is not against doing this, but against telling everyone
should do this. It's not the same.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Le 01-12-2021, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> a écrit :
> Diego Garcia <dg@chaotic.info> writes:
>
>> On Tue, 30 Nov 2021 22:16:50 -0800, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> There are other startup tools,
>>>
>>
>> Indeed there are. But the mainstream distros, and their sheepish followers,
>> completely ignore them. Without recognition and support these alternatives
>> may just wither on the vine.
>
> Ridiculous.

Yes.

> I guess those distro makers weren't so sheepish when they abandoned
> decades old sysvinit and moved to something demonstrably better.

And they not always switched directly from sysinitv to systemed.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Le 01-12-2021, Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> a écrit :
>
> I don't have to show you anything to justify my personal opinion
> based on my personal opinion. You as well don't have to show me
> anything to justify your personal opinion.

It's easier to insult the distro maintainer this way. As you have no
technical argument, you can refuse any technical argument the distro
maintainer could had when they switched.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Le 01-12-2021, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> a
écrit :
> Poettering was too arrogant to fix himself,

You prove him right.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Le 02-12-2021, Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> a écrit :
>
> Ladies and Gentlemen, I think we've discovered the new Usenet identity
> of the poster formerly known as "F. Russell" and "FR". And many
> other identities before those.
>
> Isn't that right, Alan Connor, oops, I mean, Diego? ;)

Let's say that I was wondering from a few messages.

The first real clue I had is: he's using Gentoo pretending it's
Linux From Scratch.

But he is a little bit to polite for me to be sure.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

On 12/3/21 15:04, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 01-12-2021, Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> a écrit :
>>
>> I don't have to show you anything to justify my personal opinion
>> based on my personal *experience* You as well don't have to show me
>> anything to justify your personal opinion.
>
> It's easier to insult the distro maintainer this way. As you have no
> technical argument, you can refuse any technical argument the distro
> maintainer could had when they switched.
>
Technical arguments are based on facts. Show me a fact and
I will likely agree with you. I made an error apparently in my post
which I am correcting above between the asterisks.

My distribution is not a problem. So-called Diego Garcia has
a problem with all distributions he does not create. If he has the
time that is OK with me but trying out new kernelw and reporting to
my packager if the result are less than expected is something I
enjoy. I probably spend 30 minutes each day updating my computer
or figuring out why I cannot resolve a problem. Some days I
spend hours on that. Not the distribution's fault afaiac.

But i, unlike DG, enjoy having a full distribution at hand
in case I want to do something completely different from my usual
pastimes.

bliss - brought to you by the power and ease of PCLinuxOS
and a minor case of hypergraphia

--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

Le 03-12-2021, Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> a écrit :
> On 12/3/21 15:04, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> Le 01-12-2021, Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> a écrit :
>>>
>>> I don't have to show you anything to justify my personal opinion
>>> based on my personal *experience* You as well don't have to show me
>>> anything to justify your personal opinion.
>>
>> It's easier to insult the distro maintainer this way. As you have no
>> technical argument, you can refuse any technical argument the distro
>> maintainer could had when they switched.
>>
> Technical arguments are based on facts. Show me a fact and
> I will likely agree with you. I made an error apparently in my post
> which I am correcting above between the asterisks.

OK, the fact is there are two different subjects about systemd.

The first subject is about the quality of systemd in itself. If you
refuse to take into account this fact with technical arguments, the only
result is insulting the maintainers saying they are sheep unable to
chose the init system based on technical reasons.

The second subject is about gnome which need systemd to be used. If you
don't care about gnome you can get rid of systemd easily. And as it's
difficult for a maintainer to manage two init systems, one based on
systemd for gnome and one in which systemd could be replaced without
gnome, is difficult, so they only use systemd.

I agree, systemd is only an init system among others, it shouldn't be
mandatory. But it's the gnome way, not systemd way because, systemd
offere ways to used the old init scripts at the same time as its own
configuration.

> So-called Diego Garcia has a problem with all distributions he does
> not create.

He didn't create anything. He is using Gentoo believing he's using LFS.
Pretending he created it himself. And if he is FR in disguise, I'm not
even sure he's using Gentoo.

> I probably spend 30 minutes each day updating my computer
> or figuring out why I cannot resolve a problem. Some days I
> spend hours on that. Not the distribution's fault afaiac.

You do what you want, I have nothing against it, you will always learn
things in this way and it's never a bad idea to learn things. But I have
other priorities and I really don't have time to spend 30 minutes a day.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

On Fri, 03 Dec 2021 20:44:47 +0000, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

>
> The argument is not against doing this, but against telling everyone
> should do this. It's not the same.
>

But RedHat and the majority of distros literally forcing systemd
as the default is acceptable.

You advocate a strange double standard.

--
Scratch your technical itch:
https://www.linuxfromscratch.org/

On 03/12/2021 23:10, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 01-12-2021, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> a
> écrit :
>> Poettering was too arrogant to fix himself,
>
> You prove him right.
>
Right to be arrogant? How so?

--
“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere,
diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.”
― Groucho Marx

On 12/4/21 02:17, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 03-12-2021, Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> a écrit :
>> On 12/3/21 15:04, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>> Le 01-12-2021, Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> I don't have to show you anything to justify my personal opinion
>>>> based on my personal *experience* You as well don't have to show me
>>>> anything to justify your personal opinion.
>>>
>>> It's easier to insult the distro maintainer this way. As you have no
>>> technical argument, you can refuse any technical argument the distro
>>> maintainer could had when they switched.
>>>
>> Technical arguments are based on facts. Show me a fact and
>> I will likely agree with you. I made an error apparently in my post
>> which I am correcting above between the asterisks.
>
> OK, the fact is there are two different subjects about systemd.
>
> The first subject is about the quality of systemd in itself. If you
> refuse to take into account this fact with technical arguments, the only
> result is insulting the maintainers saying they are sheep unable to
> chose the init system based on technical reasons.

No I am sure that using systemd is essential to their employment.
Having been employed in the past I generally recognize
the benefits of being employed.

>
> The second subject is about gnome which need systemd to be used. If you
> don't care about gnome you can get rid of systemd easily. And as it's
> difficult for a maintainer to manage two init systems, one based on
> systemd for gnome and one in which systemd could be replaced without
> gnome, is difficult, so they only use systemd.

AntiX and MX both seem to do ok, PCLinuxOS goes on without it and it
has KDE, Mate, XFCE as well as Open Box, Enlightenment, Trinity
and others supposedly lighter weight Desktops. I use KDE myself,
I have used Gnome when testing distribution or helping LUG members
before Covid-19 restrictions went into place. I find it more and more
repulsive as it moves on. I did use Gnome 2.4 on Mandriva for a couple
of weeks before I went back to KDE. Puppy is not my choice but if
someone was hating on systemd they have done without it,

>
> I agree, systemd is only an init system among others, it shouldn't be
> mandatory. But it's the gnome way, not systemd way because, systemd
> offere ways to used the old init scripts at the same time as its own
> configuration.
>
>> So-called Diego Garcia has a problem with all distributions he does
>> not create.
>
> He didn't create anything. He is using Gentoo believing he's using LFS.
> Pretending he created it himself. And if he is FR in disguise, I'm not
> even sure he's using Gentoo.
>
>> I probably spend 30 minutes each day updating my computer
>> or figuring out why I cannot resolve a problem. Some days I
>> spend hours on that. Not the distribution's fault afaiac.
>
> You do what you want, I have nothing against it, you will always learn
> things in this way and it's never a bad idea to learn things. But I have
> other priorities and I really don't have time to spend 30 minutes a day.
>
That is correct I have what I want in my distro but I may be forced to
compile a printer driver in order to use my new printer.
One more thing to struggle with. If I wasn't 84 now I would greet the
struggle with greater vigor but it never hurts to stretch the brain
and learn new tasks. One of the many reasons I started ti use a
computer in the first place.

later

bliss - brought to you by the power and ease of PCLinuxOS
and a minor case of hypergraphia

On Sat, 04 Dec 2021 10:17:24 +0000, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

>
> The first subject is about the quality of systemd in itself. If you
> refuse to take into account this fact with technical arguments, the only
> result is insulting the maintainers saying they are sheep unable to
> chose the init system based on technical reasons.
>

Quality?

For a desktop workstation SYSTEMD is totally unnecessary and a severe
detriment as well.

If you cannot comprehend this basic technical fact then you are deluded.

For servers, systemd may be appropriate (I don't know because I know
only a little about server maintenance and I don't want know any more).

Anyone who believes that systemd is an improvement for desktop workstations
is, I am sorry to say, is an ignoramus fool.

This group is composed of distro lackeys. No one -- other than myself -- has
the technical competence to understand the folly, for a desktop workstation,
of systemd.

--
Scratch your technical itch:
https://www.linuxfromscratch.org/

On Sat, 04 Dec 2021 19:24:53 -0500, Diego Garcia <dg@chaos.info> wrote:
> For a desktop workstation SYSTEMD is totally unnecessary and a severe
> detriment as well.

False. systemd is more than an init system. It's a task management system that
happens to include system level tasks that were handled by sysvinit.

It makes it easy for a user to start applications in the background during
login, have them automatically restart on a failure (if desired), and stopped
on logout. Much easier to use in a multi desktop environment install than getting
each desktop environment to do the same.

Gnome has chosen to take advantage of those systemd user level services, simplifying
the work for them, which is why gnome requires systemd.

> If you cannot comprehend this basic technical fact then you are deluded.
>
> For servers, systemd may be appropriate (I don't know because I know
> only a little about server maintenance and I don't want know any more).

Most desktop installs include components normally associated with a server,
such as postfix, used by cron jobs to send their output to a user. With linux,
desktop work stations are servers. They just happen to have only one user who
uses local access.

> Anyone who believes that systemd is an improvement for desktop workstations
> is, I am sorry to say, is an ignoramus fool.

Then I'm glad you consider me to be an ignoramus fool. As the leader of the qa team
for Mageia linux, I've seen the difficulty developers/packagers had getting sysvinit
scripts to work properly, and not interfere with each other (especially the latter).

While learning how to use systemd properly takes time, just as learning sysvinit
did, it's much simpler to use, much more reliable, easier to troubleshoot and
customize. It's designed to be flexible.

Circular loops in requires for the sysvinit scripts will stop sysvinit system from
booting. With systemd, with such a loop, it will automatically break the loop, at
least allowing you to get to a login, to fix the problem.

> This group is composed of distro lackeys. No one -- other than myself -- has
> the technical competence to understand the folly, for a desktop workstation,
> of systemd.

I wasn't in favour of the switch from sysvinit to systemd at first. After I'd spent
some time learning how to use it, and realized it's benefits, I learned to prefer
it. At present Mageia packages still have some sysvinit scripts (handled by
systemd), but they are being replaced by systemd service files gradually.

All init systems require investing time to learn how to use properly. If you're
not willing to invest the time, then go ahead and stick with sysvinit, but stop
complaining about something just because you don't comprehend it's benefits.

Dave Hodgins

Le 04-12-2021, Diego Garcia <dg@chaos.info> a écrit :
> On Fri, 03 Dec 2021 20:44:47 +0000, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>
>>
>> The argument is not against doing this, but against telling everyone
>> should do this. It's not the same.
>>
>
> But RedHat and the majority of distros literally forcing systemd
> as the default is acceptable.

They have to chose a default, there are no other possibility. So,
they chose the best one available.

> You advocate a strange double standard.

You are comparing two different things. I'm not saying people have
to keep the default choice.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Le 05-12-2021, David W. Hodgins <dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org> a écrit :
>
> False. systemd is more than an init system. It's a task management system that
> happens to include system level tasks that were handled by sysvinit.

You're right. And it's at the same time great and annoying. It's
annoying because it's supposed to be an init system and it does
things it shouldn't.

At the same time, as it's its purpose to launch other process, it's
the best place to follow them. So it makes sense to let it do things
which were difficult to do and needed.

> While learning how to use systemd properly takes time,

It's a real issue there. There are a lot of documentation, a lot of
stuff everywhere. But I have never found a learning path. Nothing
for the beginner to start at the beginning and progress until being
confortable. And it's a real chalenge for the beginner.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Le 04-12-2021, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> a écrit :
> On 03/12/2021 23:10, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> Le 01-12-2021, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> a
>> écrit :
>>> Poettering was too arrogant to fix himself,
>>
>> You prove him right.
>>
> Right to be arrogant? How so?

Read again your sentence, read the attacks he has received and look
at what he has done. His only choice was to ignore the attackers and
move on.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

On 05/12/2021 13:03, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 04-12-2021, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> a écrit :
>> On 03/12/2021 23:10, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>> Le 01-12-2021, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> a
>>> écrit :
>>>> Poettering was too arrogant to fix himself,
>>>
>>> You prove him right.
>>>
>> Right to be arrogant? How so?
>
> Read again your sentence, read the attacks he has received and look
> at what he has done. His only choice was to ignore the attackers and
> move on.
>
People politely reporting bugs to him in his code were not 'attackers'.
His arrogance, paranoia and narcissism might have made him *think* they
were.

Pulse audio is still far from a completed piece of work, but as you say,
he has 'moved on' and left other people to clean up his excrement

--
"Nature does not give up the winter because people dislike the cold."

― Confucius

On 05/12/2021 14.16, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 05-12-2021, David W. Hodgins <dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org> a écrit :
>>
>> False. systemd is more than an init system. It's a task management system that
>> happens to include system level tasks that were handled by sysvinit.
>
> You're right. And it's at the same time great and annoying. It's
> annoying because it's supposed to be an init system and it does
> things it shouldn't.

Who says it is supposed to be only an init system? :-D

>
> At the same time, as it's its purpose to launch other process, it's
> the best place to follow them. So it makes sense to let it do things
> which were difficult to do and needed.
>
>> While learning how to use systemd properly takes time,
>
> It's a real issue there. There are a lot of documentation, a lot of
> stuff everywhere. But I have never found a learning path. Nothing
> for the beginner to start at the beginning and progress until being
> confortable. And it's a real chalenge for the beginner.
>

Google: systemd howto for dummies

https://www.golinuxcloud.com/beginners-guide-systemd-tutorial-linux/
https://www.thegeeksearch.com/beginners-guide-to-systemd/

https://www.linux-magazine.com/Issues/2017/200/Tutorials-Systemd
https://journeymangeek.com/?p=157
And… systemd for dummies. Its not that terrible

https://bitlaunch.io/blog/a-beginners-guide-to-systemctl/

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On Thu, 02 Dec 2021 08:30:04 +0000, Richard Kettlewell wrote:

>
> I think you’re probably right. Obsessed with performance and
> customization, hates the mainstream, doesn’t understand that not
> everyone shares their hobby.
>

Typical unsophisticated, tendentious humans.

They are more concerned with the MESSENGER rather than
the MESSAGE.

Other than Usenet, Hollywood tabloids are their usual fare.

--
Scratch your technical itch:
https://www.linuxfromscratch.org/

On Thu, 02 Dec 2021 08:30:04 +0000, Richard Kettlewell wrote:

>
> Obsessed with performance and customization,
>

You fail to appreciate the semiconductor revolution. It has brought
the common man (i.e. me and you) unparalleled capabilities for
personal computing. No longer are we dependent upon paid CPU
cycles on some remote mainframe. Everything that can be done
digitally can be done on ones private desktop.

Performance is critical. That's why stuff like Intel's Math Kernel Library
exists (for GNU/Linux of course).

As I indicated earlier, I would prefer to wait 3 hours for my Povray animations
to finish rather that 6 hours (or 18 with a common distro).

--
Scratch your technical itch:
https://www.linuxfromscratch.org/