I have perhaps a question in poor taste.

Some time ago, I got the impression that a
substantial proportion of Christian religion
followers in the U.S. claimed to believe
sincerely that the events of their "Book of
Revelations" would happen very soon.
And that war involving Israel would be,
as it were, a sign of the times. And that any
time things got rough around Israel, those
Christian believers got excited, maybe this
time is when the world ends! Which they /liked/.

Was this the case? Is it the case in 2023?

Maybe that stuff is around but is harder
to find accidentally? But I'd guess that
if it's around, 2023 media will show it
to you.

I don't particularly want it to be around.
But I expected it to be. It's sort of a
Fermi Paradox for the Apocalypse?

And slightly science fictional, but this
is more so:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteen_Signs_before_Doomsday>

This refers to contradictory lists of 15 things
which will happen day by day in the /two weeks/
before the world ends. It does not seem that
these incidents /cause/ the end of the world,
although several of them will be very inconvenient
for the remaining human population.

Some of the events may be familiar as science
fiction plots, at least from the old days. Some
are baffling.

On 10/20/2023 6:21 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> I have perhaps a question in poor taste.
>
> Some time ago, I got the impression that a
> substantial proportion of Christian religion
> followers in the U.S. claimed to believe
> sincerely that the events of their "Book of
> Revelations" would happen very soon.
> And that war involving Israel would be,
> as it were, a sign of the times. And that any
> time things got rough around Israel, those
> Christian believers got excited, maybe this
> time is when the world ends! Which they /liked/.
>
> Was this the case? Is it the case in 2023?
>
> Maybe that stuff is around but is harder
> to find accidentally? But I'd guess that
> if it's around, 2023 media will show it
> to you.
>
> I don't particularly want it to be around.
> But I expected it to be. It's sort of a
> Fermi Paradox for the Apocalypse?
>
> And slightly science fictional, but this
> is more so:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteen_Signs_before_Doomsday>
>
> This refers to contradictory lists of 15 things
> which will happen day by day in the /two weeks/
> before the world ends. It does not seem that
> these incidents /cause/ the end of the world,
> although several of them will be very inconvenient
> for the remaining human population.
>
> Some of the events may be familiar as science
> fiction plots, at least from the old days. Some
> are baffling.

"Left Behind: A Novel of the Earth’s Last Days (Left Behind Series Book
1) The Apocalyptic Christian Fiction Thriller and Suspense Series About
the End Times", book #1 in a 12 book series
https://www.amazon.com/Left-Behind-Novel-Earths-Last/dp/1414334907/

Left behind movie:
https://www.amazon.com/Left-Behind-Nicolas-Cage/dp/B0893N7TNV/

No, not at all.

Lynn

On 10/20/2023 4:21 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> I have perhaps a question in poor taste.
>
> Some time ago, I got the impression that a
> substantial proportion of Christian religion
> followers in the U.S. claimed to believe
> sincerely that the events of their "Book of
> Revelations" would happen very soon.
> And that war involving Israel would be,
> as it were, a sign of the times. And that any
> time things got rough around Israel, those
> Christian believers got excited, maybe this
> time is when the world ends! Which they /liked/.
>
> Was this the case? Is it the case in 2023?
>
> Maybe that stuff is around but is harder
> to find accidentally? But I'd guess that
> if it's around, 2023 media will show it
> to you.
>
> I don't particularly want it to be around.
> But I expected it to be. It's sort of a
> Fermi Paradox for the Apocalypse?
>
> And slightly science fictional, but this
> is more so:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteen_Signs_before_Doomsday>
>
> This refers to contradictory lists of 15 things
> which will happen day by day in the /two weeks/
> before the world ends. It does not seem that
> these incidents /cause/ the end of the world,
> although several of them will be very inconvenient
> for the remaining human population.
>
> Some of the events may be familiar as science
> fiction plots, at least from the old days. Some
> are baffling.

I would not say a "substantial" proportion believe that Israel's
existence is a harbinger of "The End Times". That said, yes there are
some who believe that and a subset of those actually are working at
bringing "The End Times" about. Probably a somewhat larger number than
those who are trying to call up Cthulhu but I'm not going to speculate
on the ratio.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 10/20/2023 6:21 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> I have perhaps a question in poor taste.
>
> Some time ago, I got the impression that a
> substantial proportion of Christian religion
> followers in the U.S. claimed to believe
> sincerely that the events of their "Book of
> Revelations" would happen very soon.
> And that war involving Israel would be,
> as it were, a sign of the times. And that any
> time things got rough around Israel, those
> Christian believers got excited, maybe this
> time is when the world ends! Which they /liked/.
>
> Was this the case? Is it the case in 2023?
>
> Maybe that stuff is around but is harder
> to find accidentally? But I'd guess that
> if it's around, 2023 media will show it
> to you.
>
> I don't particularly want it to be around.
> But I expected it to be. It's sort of a
> Fermi Paradox for the Apocalypse?
>
> And slightly science fictional, but this
> is more so:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteen_Signs_before_Doomsday>
>
> This refers to contradictory lists of 15 things
> which will happen day by day in the /two weeks/
> before the world ends. It does not seem that
> these incidents /cause/ the end of the world,
> although several of them will be very inconvenient
> for the remaining human population.
>
> Some of the events may be familiar as science
> fiction plots, at least from the old days. Some
> are baffling.

BTW, which war for Israel ? I assume that since the AD 70 ??? Roman
war, the 1948, 1966, and 1973 wars are over that they do not count.

It is beginning to look like that this latest atrocity may turn into a
three front war for Israel. I doubt that it will go nuclear unless the
Israelis have had it with Iran.

Lynn

On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 16:21:03 -0700, Robert Carnegie wrote:

> I have perhaps a question in poor taste.
>
> Some time ago, I got the impression that a substantial proportion of
> Christian religion followers in the U.S. claimed to believe sincerely
> that the events of their "Book of Revelations" would happen very soon.
> And that war involving Israel would be,
> as it were, a sign of the times. And that any time things got rough
> around Israel, those Christian believers got excited, maybe this time is
> when the world ends! Which they /liked/.
>
> Was this the case? Is it the case in 2023?
>
> Maybe that stuff is around but is harder to find accidentally? But I'd
> guess that if it's around, 2023 media will show it to you.
>
> I don't particularly want it to be around.
> But I expected it to be. It's sort of a Fermi Paradox for the
> Apocalypse?
>
> And slightly science fictional, but this is more so:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteen_Signs_before_Doomsday>
>

....which shows that the general notion of End Times is not exclusively an
American thing. Further research is in order to identify when and where
the notion of warfare in the Holy Land specifically came to be one of the
signs.
Also, check out
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Isaac_Newton

On Saturday, 21 October 2023 at 09:07:26 UTC+1, Charles Packer wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 16:21:03 -0700, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>
> > I have perhaps a question in poor taste.
> >
> > Some time ago, I got the impression that a substantial proportion of
> > Christian religion followers in the U.S. claimed to believe sincerely
> > that the events of their "Book of Revelations" would happen very soon.
> > And that war involving Israel would be,
> > as it were, a sign of the times. And that any time things got rough
> > around Israel, those Christian believers got excited, maybe this time is
> > when the world ends! Which they /liked/.
> >
> > Was this the case? Is it the case in 2023?
> >
> > Maybe that stuff is around but is harder to find accidentally? But I'd
> > guess that if it's around, 2023 media will show it to you.
> >
> > I don't particularly want it to be around.
> > But I expected it to be. It's sort of a Fermi Paradox for the
> > Apocalypse?
> >
> > And slightly science fictional, but this is more so:
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteen_Signs_before_Doomsday>
> >
> ...which shows that the general notion of End Times is not exclusively an
> American thing.

Yes, but that's 1000 years old and more...
where it says "post-millennial manuscripts",
it means after the year 1000. Though I don't
think I heard of these particular signs before
now. And I'm struck that one of them apparently
is the world flooding, which the bible seems to say
that God promised not to do again.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events>
says that it's been claimed, but has been disputed,
that the year 1000 was believed by some Christians
to be when the world would end.

Though the bible says, you won't know until it happens.

> Further research is in order to identify when and where
> the notion of warfare in the Holy Land specifically came to be one of the
> signs.

Well, it's mentioned here as being in the Christian bible -
if your bible includes the Apocalypse. Some don't.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megiddo,_Israel>

> Also, check out
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Isaac_Newton

No, that says 2034 at the soonest :-)

I have now found some current stuff, by searching
for (War Israel Apocalypse), but I don't know if it is,
I'll say, "mainstream".

<https://livingwaters.com/is-war-in-israel-a-sign-of-the-end-of-the-age/>
"Yes, but maybe not this time, either. We'd prefer
that it isn't."

<https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/new-updates/unusual-events-in-middle-east-spark-end-of-the-world-speculations/articleshow/104457351.cms>
This is either from artificial intelligence, or human
but insane. I won't spoil it for you. :-)

<https://religiondispatches.org/israel-hamas-is-not-a-religious-war-and-this-is-not-your-rapture/>
"*FORMER* Republican Ohio State Representative
Candice Keller spent days posting about the
Rapture on her Facebook page." "The Rapture"
means that true Christians fly up into the sky
like helium balloons and everybody else is
Left Behind. It's somewhat unclear
whether anybody important is involved -
in 2023 apocalypse anticipation, I mean,
not the Rapture.

On 20/10/2023 21.16, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 10/20/2023 6:21 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>> I have perhaps a question in poor taste.
>>
>> Some time ago, I got the impression that a
>> substantial proportion of Christian religion
>> followers in the U.S. claimed to believe
>> sincerely that the events of their "Book of
>> Revelations" would happen very soon.
>> And that war involving Israel would be,
>> as it were, a sign of the times.  And that any
>> time things got rough around Israel, those
>> Christian believers got excited, maybe this
>> time is when the world ends!  Which they /liked/.

> BTW, which war for Israel ?  I assume that since the AD 70 ??? Roman war, the 1948, 1966, and 1973 wars are over that they do not count.
>
> It is beginning to look like that this latest atrocity may turn into a three front war for Israel.  I doubt that it will go nuclear unless the Israelis have had it with Iran.

Last I heard, Netanyahu's government was down-playing the
possibility that Iran was behind the recent attack by Hamas.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Life's too important to take seriously.

In article <97017cc2-130d-4c5e-a355-feee8cd32839n@googlegroups.com>,
Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>I have perhaps a question in poor taste.
>
>Some time ago, I got the impression that a
>substantial proportion of Christian religion
>followers in the U.S. claimed to believe
>sincerely that the events of their "Book of
>Revelations" would happen very soon.
>And that war involving Israel would be,
>as it were, a sign of the times. And that any
>time things got rough around Israel, those
>Christian believers got excited, maybe this
>time is when the world ends! Which they /liked/.
>
>Was this the case? Is it the case in 2023?

[Hal Heydt]
I wouldn't call it a "substantial" proportion, but they're out
there--usually on the extreme right. Dorothy used to annoyed
about "end times" predictions. She would quote a Bible passage,
which was (supposedly) quoting Jesus saying, "No one knows the
day or hour, not even the Son. Only the Father." (And please
don't take that as an exact quote by me as I'm going by memory of
what Dorothy said.

The expectation that the final battle and the end of the world
requires Israel to exist is at least part of the reason why many of
the extreme right-wing/Biblical literalist types support Israel.
So it'll be there to be wiped out.

On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 17:51:10 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 10/20/2023 4:21 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>> I have perhaps a question in poor taste.
>>
>> Some time ago, I got the impression that a
>> substantial proportion of Christian religion
>> followers in the U.S. claimed to believe
>> sincerely that the events of their "Book of
>> Revelations" would happen very soon.
>> And that war involving Israel would be,
>> as it were, a sign of the times. And that any
>> time things got rough around Israel, those
>> Christian believers got excited, maybe this
>> time is when the world ends! Which they /liked/.
>>
>> Was this the case? Is it the case in 2023?
>>
>> Maybe that stuff is around but is harder
>> to find accidentally? But I'd guess that
>> if it's around, 2023 media will show it
>> to you.
>>
>> I don't particularly want it to be around.
>> But I expected it to be. It's sort of a
>> Fermi Paradox for the Apocalypse?
>>
>> And slightly science fictional, but this
>> is more so:
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteen_Signs_before_Doomsday>
>>
>> This refers to contradictory lists of 15 things
>> which will happen day by day in the /two weeks/
>> before the world ends. It does not seem that
>> these incidents /cause/ the end of the world,
>> although several of them will be very inconvenient
>> for the remaining human population.
>>
>> Some of the events may be familiar as science
>> fiction plots, at least from the old days. Some
>> are baffling.
>
>I would not say a "substantial" proportion believe that Israel's
>existence is a harbinger of "The End Times". That said, yes there are
>some who believe that and a subset of those actually are working at
>bringing "The End Times" about. Probably a somewhat larger number than
>those who are trying to call up Cthulhu but I'm not going to speculate
>on the ratio.

I don't suppose any of those actually working to force God's hand have
given any thought to what God might to the them if He has problems
with his hand being forced.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 21:16:36 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 10/20/2023 6:21 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>> I have perhaps a question in poor taste.
>>
>> Some time ago, I got the impression that a
>> substantial proportion of Christian religion
>> followers in the U.S. claimed to believe
>> sincerely that the events of their "Book of
>> Revelations" would happen very soon.
>> And that war involving Israel would be,
>> as it were, a sign of the times. And that any
>> time things got rough around Israel, those
>> Christian believers got excited, maybe this
>> time is when the world ends! Which they /liked/.
>>
>> Was this the case? Is it the case in 2023?
>>
>> Maybe that stuff is around but is harder
>> to find accidentally? But I'd guess that
>> if it's around, 2023 media will show it
>> to you.
>>
>> I don't particularly want it to be around.
>> But I expected it to be. It's sort of a
>> Fermi Paradox for the Apocalypse?
>>
>> And slightly science fictional, but this
>> is more so:
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteen_Signs_before_Doomsday>
>>
>> This refers to contradictory lists of 15 things
>> which will happen day by day in the /two weeks/
>> before the world ends. It does not seem that
>> these incidents /cause/ the end of the world,
>> although several of them will be very inconvenient
>> for the remaining human population.
>>
>> Some of the events may be familiar as science
>> fiction plots, at least from the old days. Some
>> are baffling.
>
>BTW, which war for Israel ? I assume that since the AD 70 ??? Roman
>war, the 1948, 1966, and 1973 wars are over that they do not count.
>
>It is beginning to look like that this latest atrocity may turn into a
>three front war for Israel. I doubt that it will go nuclear unless the
>Israelis have had it with Iran.

The one that results in a massive battle near Megiddo, of course.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 08:07:20 GMT, Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org>
wrote:

>On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 16:21:03 -0700, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>
>> I have perhaps a question in poor taste.
>>
>> Some time ago, I got the impression that a substantial proportion of
>> Christian religion followers in the U.S. claimed to believe sincerely
>> that the events of their "Book of Revelations" would happen very soon.
>> And that war involving Israel would be,
>> as it were, a sign of the times. And that any time things got rough
>> around Israel, those Christian believers got excited, maybe this time is
>> when the world ends! Which they /liked/.
>>
>> Was this the case? Is it the case in 2023?
>>
>> Maybe that stuff is around but is harder to find accidentally? But I'd
>> guess that if it's around, 2023 media will show it to you.
>>
>> I don't particularly want it to be around.
>> But I expected it to be. It's sort of a Fermi Paradox for the
>> Apocalypse?
>>
>> And slightly science fictional, but this is more so:
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteen_Signs_before_Doomsday>
>>
>
>...which shows that the general notion of End Times is not exclusively an
>American thing. Further research is in order to identify when and where
>the notion of warfare in the Holy Land specifically came to be one of the
>signs.
>Also, check out
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Isaac_Newton

Of course it's not "exclusively an American thing". It may or may not
be exlusively a Christian thing, depending on how the Jews feel about
it.

As to warfare in the Holy Land, you might want to check on where
Megiddo is located. Then Har-Megiddo. And then contemplate the
derivation of "Armageddon".

To know this stuff is not to be fanatical about it, BTW.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 5:31:23 PM UTC+1, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <97017cc2-130d-4c5e...@googlegroups.com>,
> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> >I have perhaps a question in poor taste.
> >
> >Some time ago, I got the impression that a
> >substantial proportion of Christian religion
> >followers in the U.S. claimed to believe
> >sincerely that the events of their "Book of
> >Revelations" would happen very soon.
> >And that war involving Israel would be,
> >as it were, a sign of the times. And that any
> >time things got rough around Israel, those
> >Christian believers got excited, maybe this
> >time is when the world ends! Which they /liked/.
> >
> >Was this the case? Is it the case in 2023?
> [Hal Heydt]
> I wouldn't call it a "substantial" proportion, but they're out
> there--usually on the extreme right. Dorothy used to annoyed
> about "end times" predictions. She would quote a Bible passage,
> which was (supposedly) quoting Jesus saying, "No one knows the
> day or hour, not even the Son. Only the Father." (And please
> don't take that as an exact quote by me as I'm going by memory of
> what Dorothy said.
>
> The expectation that the final battle and the end of the world
> requires Israel to exist is at least part of the reason why many of
> the extreme right-wing/Biblical literalist types support Israel.
> So it'll be there to be wiped out.
I always associated prediction of an imminent second coming with the Jehovah's witnesses. Their web site suggests that one might be in the air, but they have learned not to make testable predictions, and in fact their web site references what I suspect is Dorothy's passage in the first part of Matthew 24 - https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/end-of-the-world/ FWIW there are British Jehovah's witnesses - in fact they have just moved out of a hall not far from me to somewhere else in the town. A web search suggests that they do not vote in America for religious reasons - and in Australia, where voting is compulsory but apparently many people don't bother to register, JWs carfully register (because they Bible tells them to obey Caesar) - and then claim a religious exemption to avoid voting.

On 10/21/2023 9:45 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 17:51:10 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>> On 10/20/2023 4:21 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>> I have perhaps a question in poor taste.
>>>
>>> Some time ago, I got the impression that a
>>> substantial proportion of Christian religion
>>> followers in the U.S. claimed to believe
>>> sincerely that the events of their "Book of
>>> Revelations" would happen very soon.
>>> And that war involving Israel would be,
>>> as it were, a sign of the times. And that any
>>> time things got rough around Israel, those
>>> Christian believers got excited, maybe this
>>> time is when the world ends! Which they /liked/.
>>>
>>> Was this the case? Is it the case in 2023?
>>>
>>> Maybe that stuff is around but is harder
>>> to find accidentally? But I'd guess that
>>> if it's around, 2023 media will show it
>>> to you.
>>>
>>> I don't particularly want it to be around.
>>> But I expected it to be. It's sort of a
>>> Fermi Paradox for the Apocalypse?
>>>
>>> And slightly science fictional, but this
>>> is more so:
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteen_Signs_before_Doomsday>
>>>
>>> This refers to contradictory lists of 15 things
>>> which will happen day by day in the /two weeks/
>>> before the world ends. It does not seem that
>>> these incidents /cause/ the end of the world,
>>> although several of them will be very inconvenient
>>> for the remaining human population.
>>>
>>> Some of the events may be familiar as science
>>> fiction plots, at least from the old days. Some
>>> are baffling.
>>
>> I would not say a "substantial" proportion believe that Israel's
>> existence is a harbinger of "The End Times". That said, yes there are
>> some who believe that and a subset of those actually are working at
>> bringing "The End Times" about. Probably a somewhat larger number than
>> those who are trying to call up Cthulhu but I'm not going to speculate
>> on the ratio.
>
> I don't suppose any of those actually working to force God's hand have
> given any thought to what God might to the them if He has problems
> with his hand being forced.

"If it happens it is God's will and so any efforts we make towards
making it happen are therefore also God's will."

Basically they accept no responsibility for anything because everything
is God's Will and they are God's Chosen People.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Saturday, 21 October 2023 at 01:51:18 UTC+1, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 10/20/2023 4:21 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> > I have perhaps a question in poor taste.
> >
> > Some time ago, I got the impression that a
> > substantial proportion of Christian religion
> > followers in the U.S. claimed to believe
> > sincerely that the events of their "Book of
> > Revelations" would happen very soon.
> > And that war involving Israel would be,
> > as it were, a sign of the times. And that any
> > time things got rough around Israel, those
> > Christian believers got excited, maybe this
> > time is when the world ends! Which they /liked/.
> >
> > Was this the case? Is it the case in 2023?
> >
> > Maybe that stuff is around but is harder
> > to find accidentally? But I'd guess that
> > if it's around, 2023 media will show it
> > to you.
> >
> > I don't particularly want it to be around.
> > But I expected it to be. It's sort of a
> > Fermi Paradox for the Apocalypse?
> >
> > And slightly science fictional, but this
> > is more so:
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteen_Signs_before_Doomsday>
> >
> > This refers to contradictory lists of 15 things
> > which will happen day by day in the /two weeks/
> > before the world ends. It does not seem that
> > these incidents /cause/ the end of the world,
> > although several of them will be very inconvenient
> > for the remaining human population.
> >
> > Some of the events may be familiar as science
> > fiction plots, at least from the old days. Some
> > are baffling.
> I would not say a "substantial" proportion believe that Israel's
> existence is a harbinger of "The End Times". That said, yes there are
> some who believe that and a subset of those actually are working at
> bringing "The End Times" about. Probably a somewhat larger number than
> those who are trying to call up Cthulhu but I'm not going to speculate
> on the ratio.

I don't want to encourage a belief that Americans
or people elsewhere are deliberately trying to start
the apocalyptic war, for religious or other reasons,
if they are not doing that. If they are, I consider that
fairly deplorable. Even accepting the premise that
things will be better after the war - for the survivors -
and supposedly that all of the people who suffer in
the war deserve to suffer (because everybody
deserves to suffer), you /don't/ get to do that to
my species and to my planet. Unless you're God,
and mainly because then I can't do much about it.

Non-violent ways for people to establish the
conditions for God to end the world - preaching
Christianity at least once to everyone on the planet
(tricky with people being born all the time), or the
one in the Arthur C. Clarke story which ends with
God turning off the lights and sweeping up after
the show - that's also fair play where it is God
that you might have a quarrel with.

And, yes, there's the point of view that the purpose
of the U.S. contribution towards establishing and
maintaining a modern state of Israel was/is for
Israel to play its role in the End Times, but I don't
know that it was widely seen like that in the 1940s.
And a modern state of Israel was not a new idea then.
On the other hand, I would suppose that America
then was greatly dominated by Christians who had
read the bible thoughtfully. And the bible is mainly
set in Israel. Those 1940s Americans would need to
be even more thoughtful to not think of the new Israel
as mainly a bible theme park. If what they thought
mattered.

I already linked to this October 2023 article
<https://livingwaters.com/is-war-in-israel-a-sign-of-the-end-of-the-age/>
which I now see is from conspicuous creationist
Ray Comfort, declaring "War in Israel, and particularly
the battle for Jerusalem, sends those who know their
Bibles to key Bible verses. The re-establishment of
Israel in 1948 was a pivotal event in the fulfillment of
biblical prophecy." It was shortly before he was born
so he had nothing to do with it, and he isn't stating a
case here for helping war to happen. I wouldn't put
it past him.

On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 12:46:28 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 21:16:36 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On 10/20/2023 6:21 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> >> I have perhaps a question in poor taste.
> >>
> >> Some time ago, I got the impression that a
> >> substantial proportion of Christian religion
> >> followers in the U.S. claimed to believe
> >> sincerely that the events of their "Book of
> >> Revelations" would happen very soon.
> >> And that war involving Israel would be,
> >> as it were, a sign of the times. And that any
> >> time things got rough around Israel, those
> >> Christian believers got excited, maybe this
> >> time is when the world ends! Which they /liked/.
> >>
> >> Was this the case? Is it the case in 2023?
> >>
> >> Maybe that stuff is around but is harder
> >> to find accidentally? But I'd guess that
> >> if it's around, 2023 media will show it
> >> to you.
> >>
> >> I don't particularly want it to be around.
> >> But I expected it to be. It's sort of a
> >> Fermi Paradox for the Apocalypse?
> >>
> >> And slightly science fictional, but this
> >> is more so:
> >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteen_Signs_before_Doomsday>
> >>
> >> This refers to contradictory lists of 15 things
> >> which will happen day by day in the /two weeks/
> >> before the world ends. It does not seem that
> >> these incidents /cause/ the end of the world,
> >> although several of them will be very inconvenient
> >> for the remaining human population.
> >>
> >> Some of the events may be familiar as science
> >> fiction plots, at least from the old days. Some
> >> are baffling.
> >
> >BTW, which war for Israel ? I assume that since the AD 70 ??? Roman
> >war, the 1948, 1966, and 1973 wars are over that they do not count.
> >
> >It is beginning to look like that this latest atrocity may turn into a
> >three front war for Israel. I doubt that it will go nuclear unless the
> >Israelis have had it with Iran.
> The one that results in a massive battle near Megiddo, of course.

Didn't that happen in 1918 when a battle involving armies of nine
distinct nations occurred? With over a hundred thousand combatants,
and plenty of artillery, surely it qualifies as massive?

Clearly, the world ended long before I was born.

William Hyde

On Friday, October 20, 2023 at 7:21:06 PM UTC-4, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> I have perhaps a question in poor taste.
>
> Some time ago, I got the impression that a
> substantial proportion of Christian religion
> followers in the U.S. claimed to believe
> sincerely that the events of their "Book of
> Revelations" would happen very soon.
> And that war involving Israel would be,
> as it were, a sign of the times. And that any
> time things got rough around Israel, those
> Christian believers got excited, maybe this
> time is when the world ends! Which they /liked/.
>
> Was this the case? Is it the case in 2023?
>
> Maybe that stuff is around but is harder
> to find accidentally? But I'd guess that
> if it's around, 2023 media will show it
> to you.
>
> I don't particularly want it to be around.
> But I expected it to be. It's sort of a
> Fermi Paradox for the Apocalypse?
>
> And slightly science fictional, but this
> is more so:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteen_Signs_before_Doomsday>
>
> This refers to contradictory lists of 15 things
> which will happen day by day in the /two weeks/
> before the world ends. It does not seem that
> these incidents /cause/ the end of the world,
> although several of them will be very inconvenient
> for the remaining human population.
>
> Some of the events may be familiar as science
> fiction plots, at least from the old days. Some
> are baffling.

Unfortunately, it IS around:
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/01/27/apocalypse-coming-christian-nationalism-00079317

It's particularly strong in the same demographic which supports Trump
as some kind of near Messiah.

There's a lot of people who think they don't deserve to be in the shitty situation
they find themselves in, and dream of the day the people they blame will be
brought low by some break in the normal order of things.

Pt

On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 16:21:03 -0700, Robert Carnegie wrote:

> I have perhaps a question in poor taste.
>
> Some time ago, I got the impression that a substantial proportion of
> Christian religion followers in the U.S. claimed to believe sincerely
> that the events of their "Book of Revelations" would happen very soon.
> And that war involving Israel would be,
> as it were, a sign of the times. And that any time things got rough
> around Israel, those Christian believers got excited, maybe this time is
> when the world ends! Which they /liked/.
>
> Was this the case? Is it the case in 2023?
>
> Maybe that stuff is around but is harder to find accidentally? But I'd
> guess that if it's around, 2023 media will show it to you.
>
> I don't particularly want it to be around.
> But I expected it to be. It's sort of a Fermi Paradox for the
> Apocalypse?
>
> And slightly science fictional, but this is more so:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteen_Signs_before_Doomsday>
>
> This refers to contradictory lists of 15 things which will happen day by
> day in the /two weeks/
> before the world ends. It does not seem that these incidents /cause/
> the end of the world,
> although several of them will be very inconvenient for the remaining
> human population.

A first-pass search turns up that
the origin of the doomsday list is said (by Wikipedia footnotes) part of
a manuscript in an obscure medieval language (First Riustring
Manuscript). The parent document was also called Asega-Bok.
However, the 1848 book "Dictionary of Americanisms" by
John Russell Bartlett turns up in a Google search on the name.
American origin? What's going on here?

>
> Some of the events may be familiar as science fiction plots, at least
> from the old days. Some are baffling.

Asimov's notion of speeding up some galactic historical cycle
(in The Foundation) fits right in.

On Sunday, 22 October 2023 at 02:55:51 UTC+1, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, October 20, 2023 at 7:21:06 PM UTC-4, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> > I have perhaps a question in poor taste.
> >
> > Some time ago, I got the impression that a
> > substantial proportion of Christian religion
> > followers in the U.S. claimed to believe
> > sincerely that the events of their "Book of
> > Revelations" would happen very soon.
> > And that war involving Israel would be,
> > as it were, a sign of the times. And that any
> > time things got rough around Israel, those
> > Christian believers got excited, maybe this
> > time is when the world ends! Which they /liked/.
> >
> > Was this the case? Is it the case in 2023?
> >
> > Maybe that stuff is around but is harder
> > to find accidentally? But I'd guess that
> > if it's around, 2023 media will show it
> > to you.
> >
> > I don't particularly want it to be around.
> > But I expected it to be. It's sort of a
> > Fermi Paradox for the Apocalypse?
> >
> > And slightly science fictional, but this
> > is more so:
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteen_Signs_before_Doomsday>
> >
> > This refers to contradictory lists of 15 things
> > which will happen day by day in the /two weeks/
> > before the world ends. It does not seem that
> > these incidents /cause/ the end of the world,
> > although several of them will be very inconvenient
> > for the remaining human population.
> >
> > Some of the events may be familiar as science
> > fiction plots, at least from the old days. Some
> > are baffling.
> Unfortunately, it IS around:
> https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/01/27/apocalypse-coming-christian-nationalism-00079317
>
> It's particularly strong in the same demographic which supports Trump
> as some kind of near Messiah.
>
> There's a lot of people who think they don't deserve to be in the shitty situation
> they find themselves in, and dream of the day the people they blame will be
> brought low by some break in the normal order of things.

I think that's the wrong apocalypse, though. The article
Is not about End Times, but the loss of white supremacy,
sex laws, and Christian dominance of American politics.
Unless I missed a detail.

On 21/10/2023 11.20, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

> I wouldn't call it a "substantial" proportion, but they're out
> there--usually on the extreme right. Dorothy used to annoyed
> about "end times" predictions. She would quote a Bible passage,
> which was (supposedly) quoting Jesus saying, "No one knows the
> day or hour, not even the Son. Only the Father." (And please
> don't take that as an exact quote by me as I'm going by memory of
> what Dorothy said.

It's quite close.

> The expectation that the final battle and the end of the world
> requires Israel to exist is at least part of the reason why many of
> the extreme right-wing/Biblical literalist types support Israel.
> So it'll be there to be wiped out.

Eugh. I never thought of it in that way. Yuck!

--
Michael F. Stemper
Economists have correctly predicted seven of the last three recessions.

On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 10:23:19 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 10/21/2023 9:45 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 17:51:10 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/20/2023 4:21 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>>> I have perhaps a question in poor taste.
>>>>
>>>> Some time ago, I got the impression that a
>>>> substantial proportion of Christian religion
>>>> followers in the U.S. claimed to believe
>>>> sincerely that the events of their "Book of
>>>> Revelations" would happen very soon.
>>>> And that war involving Israel would be,
>>>> as it were, a sign of the times. And that any
>>>> time things got rough around Israel, those
>>>> Christian believers got excited, maybe this
>>>> time is when the world ends! Which they /liked/.
>>>>
>>>> Was this the case? Is it the case in 2023?
>>>>
>>>> Maybe that stuff is around but is harder
>>>> to find accidentally? But I'd guess that
>>>> if it's around, 2023 media will show it
>>>> to you.
>>>>
>>>> I don't particularly want it to be around.
>>>> But I expected it to be. It's sort of a
>>>> Fermi Paradox for the Apocalypse?
>>>>
>>>> And slightly science fictional, but this
>>>> is more so:
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteen_Signs_before_Doomsday>
>>>>
>>>> This refers to contradictory lists of 15 things
>>>> which will happen day by day in the /two weeks/
>>>> before the world ends. It does not seem that
>>>> these incidents /cause/ the end of the world,
>>>> although several of them will be very inconvenient
>>>> for the remaining human population.
>>>>
>>>> Some of the events may be familiar as science
>>>> fiction plots, at least from the old days. Some
>>>> are baffling.
>>>
>>> I would not say a "substantial" proportion believe that Israel's
>>> existence is a harbinger of "The End Times". That said, yes there are
>>> some who believe that and a subset of those actually are working at
>>> bringing "The End Times" about. Probably a somewhat larger number than
>>> those who are trying to call up Cthulhu but I'm not going to speculate
>>> on the ratio.
>>
>> I don't suppose any of those actually working to force God's hand have
>> given any thought to what God might to the them if He has problems
>> with his hand being forced.
>
>"If it happens it is God's will and so any efforts we make towards
>making it happen are therefore also God's will."
>
>Basically they accept no responsibility for anything because everything
>is God's Will and they are God's Chosen People.

And some people wonder why theodicy is needed ...
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 16:20:05 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:

>In article <97017cc2-130d-4c5e-a355-feee8cd32839n@googlegroups.com>,
>Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>>I have perhaps a question in poor taste.
>>
>>Some time ago, I got the impression that a
>>substantial proportion of Christian religion
>>followers in the U.S. claimed to believe
>>sincerely that the events of their "Book of
>>Revelations" would happen very soon.
>>And that war involving Israel would be,
>>as it were, a sign of the times. And that any
>>time things got rough around Israel, those
>>Christian believers got excited, maybe this
>>time is when the world ends! Which they /liked/.
>>
>>Was this the case? Is it the case in 2023?
>
>[Hal Heydt]
>I wouldn't call it a "substantial" proportion, but they're out
>there--usually on the extreme right. Dorothy used to annoyed
>about "end times" predictions. She would quote a Bible passage,
>which was (supposedly) quoting Jesus saying, "No one knows the
>day or hour, not even the Son. Only the Father." (And please
>don't take that as an exact quote by me as I'm going by memory of
>what Dorothy said.
>
>The expectation that the final battle and the end of the world
>requires Israel to exist is at least part of the reason why many of
>the extreme right-wing/Biblical literalist types support Israel.
>So it'll be there to be wiped out.

True enough.

But many others of the extreme right-wing are as antiSemetic as the
pro-Hamas groups apparently associated with the extreme left.

As Ayn Rand said, at the extremes, right and left merge.

Or, as I have said, wing-nuts exist on all sides.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 07:22:30 GMT, Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org>
wrote:

>On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 16:21:03 -0700, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>
>> I have perhaps a question in poor taste.
>>
>> Some time ago, I got the impression that a substantial proportion of
>> Christian religion followers in the U.S. claimed to believe sincerely
>> that the events of their "Book of Revelations" would happen very soon.
>> And that war involving Israel would be,
>> as it were, a sign of the times. And that any time things got rough
>> around Israel, those Christian believers got excited, maybe this time is
>> when the world ends! Which they /liked/.
>>
>> Was this the case? Is it the case in 2023?
>>
>> Maybe that stuff is around but is harder to find accidentally? But I'd
>> guess that if it's around, 2023 media will show it to you.
>>
>> I don't particularly want it to be around.
>> But I expected it to be. It's sort of a Fermi Paradox for the
>> Apocalypse?
>>
>> And slightly science fictional, but this is more so:
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteen_Signs_before_Doomsday>
>>
>> This refers to contradictory lists of 15 things which will happen day by
>> day in the /two weeks/
>> before the world ends. It does not seem that these incidents /cause/
>> the end of the world,
>> although several of them will be very inconvenient for the remaining
>> human population.
>
>A first-pass search turns up that
>the origin of the doomsday list is said (by Wikipedia footnotes) part of
>a manuscript in an obscure medieval language (First Riustring
>Manuscript). The parent document was also called Asega-Bok.
>However, the 1848 book "Dictionary of Americanisms" by
>John Russell Bartlett turns up in a Google search on the name.
>American origin? What's going on here?

This is discussed in [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asega-b%C3%B4k].
This is the oldest existing code of Germanic law.

This is not so obscure as you make it sound. Rustingen itself is
above water as the Butjadingen peninsula; the remainder forms the
bottom of Jadenbusten bay. The Frisians survive in Freisland and
related areas.

The "Fifteen Signs of Doomsday" was popular medieval list, derived
from the apocryphal (2nd-4th century AD) /Apocalypse of Thomas/. But
only, apparently, the first seven signs. Note that the NT Revelation
is thought to be from the late 1st century AD, and that apocalyptic
literature was quite popular back then. The book 2nd Esdras (which, in
the Protestant Bible, is in the Apocrypha) is an apocalyptic work from
about the same time as Revelation, but a Jewish one. Note that the
arrival of 1000 AD was treated as when the world would end, with
considerable disruption and disappointment when it did not do so.

This probably means that these "fifteen signs", at least in concept,
can be traced back into pre-NT times as part of what the Jews then
expected would happen when the Messiah appeared.

I really would expect, however, that the conservative Christians
currently waiting for the world to end and even those trying to make
it happen whether God thinks it is time or not are going more on the
NT Revelation and OT Daniel more than anything else. /Our Day In the
Light of Prophecy/ -- at least the 1919 edition inherited from my
grandfather -- did not mention the "fifteen things" as such, at least
not as listed in the Wiki, although a few may have been given from a
Biblical source. Nor did another book I inherited -- /There's A New
World Coming/, which is a commentary on the NT Revelation.

But since there is no end to foolishness, it is possible that some
groups have found other sources.

>> Some of the events may be familiar as science fiction plots, at least
>> from the old days. Some are baffling.
>
>Asimov's notion of speeding up some galactic historical cycle
>(in The Foundation) fits right in.
>
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On 10/22/2023 8:18 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 16:20:05 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
> Heydt) wrote:
>
>> In article <97017cc2-130d-4c5e-a355-feee8cd32839n@googlegroups.com>,
>> Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>>> I have perhaps a question in poor taste.
>>>
>>> Some time ago, I got the impression that a
>>> substantial proportion of Christian religion
>>> followers in the U.S. claimed to believe
>>> sincerely that the events of their "Book of
>>> Revelations" would happen very soon.
>>> And that war involving Israel would be,
>>> as it were, a sign of the times. And that any
>>> time things got rough around Israel, those
>>> Christian believers got excited, maybe this
>>> time is when the world ends! Which they /liked/.
>>>
>>> Was this the case? Is it the case in 2023?
>>
>> [Hal Heydt]
>> I wouldn't call it a "substantial" proportion, but they're out
>> there--usually on the extreme right. Dorothy used to annoyed
>> about "end times" predictions. She would quote a Bible passage,
>> which was (supposedly) quoting Jesus saying, "No one knows the
>> day or hour, not even the Son. Only the Father." (And please
>> don't take that as an exact quote by me as I'm going by memory of
>> what Dorothy said.
>>
>> The expectation that the final battle and the end of the world
>> requires Israel to exist is at least part of the reason why many of
>> the extreme right-wing/Biblical literalist types support Israel.
>> So it'll be there to be wiped out.
>
> True enough.
>
> But many others of the extreme right-wing are as antiSemetic as the
> pro-Hamas groups apparently associated with the extreme left.
>
> As Ayn Rand said, at the extremes, right and left merge.
>
> Or, as I have said, wing-nuts exist on all sides.

With so many wingnuts around pigs should have an easy time attaching wings.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 10/22/2023 8:53 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 07:22:30 GMT, Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org>
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 16:21:03 -0700, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>
>>> I have perhaps a question in poor taste.
>>>
>>> Some time ago, I got the impression that a substantial proportion of
>>> Christian religion followers in the U.S. claimed to believe sincerely
>>> that the events of their "Book of Revelations" would happen very soon.
>>> And that war involving Israel would be,
>>> as it were, a sign of the times. And that any time things got rough
>>> around Israel, those Christian believers got excited, maybe this time is
>>> when the world ends! Which they /liked/.
>>>
>>> Was this the case? Is it the case in 2023?
>>>
>>> Maybe that stuff is around but is harder to find accidentally? But I'd
>>> guess that if it's around, 2023 media will show it to you.
>>>
>>> I don't particularly want it to be around.
>>> But I expected it to be. It's sort of a Fermi Paradox for the
>>> Apocalypse?
>>>
>>> And slightly science fictional, but this is more so:
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteen_Signs_before_Doomsday>
>>>
>>> This refers to contradictory lists of 15 things which will happen day by
>>> day in the /two weeks/
>>> before the world ends. It does not seem that these incidents /cause/
>>> the end of the world,
>>> although several of them will be very inconvenient for the remaining
>>> human population.
>>
>> A first-pass search turns up that
>> the origin of the doomsday list is said (by Wikipedia footnotes) part of
>> a manuscript in an obscure medieval language (First Riustring
>> Manuscript). The parent document was also called Asega-Bok.
>> However, the 1848 book "Dictionary of Americanisms" by
>> John Russell Bartlett turns up in a Google search on the name.
>> American origin? What's going on here?
>
> This is discussed in [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asega-b%C3%B4k].
> This is the oldest existing code of Germanic law.
>
> This is not so obscure as you make it sound. Rustingen itself is
> above water as the Butjadingen peninsula; the remainder forms the
> bottom of Jadenbusten bay. The Frisians survive in Freisland and
> related areas.
>
> The "Fifteen Signs of Doomsday" was popular medieval list, derived
> from the apocryphal (2nd-4th century AD) /Apocalypse of Thomas/. But
> only, apparently, the first seven signs. Note that the NT Revelation
> is thought to be from the late 1st century AD, and that apocalyptic
> literature was quite popular back then. The book 2nd Esdras (which, in
> the Protestant Bible, is in the Apocrypha) is an apocalyptic work from
> about the same time as Revelation, but a Jewish one. Note that the
> arrival of 1000 AD was treated as when the world would end, with
> considerable disruption and disappointment when it did not do so.
>
> This probably means that these "fifteen signs", at least in concept,
> can be traced back into pre-NT times as part of what the Jews then
> expected would happen when the Messiah appeared.
>
> I really would expect, however, that the conservative Christians
> currently waiting for the world to end and even those trying to make
> it happen whether God thinks it is time or not are going more on the
> NT Revelation and OT Daniel more than anything else. /Our Day In the
> Light of Prophecy/ -- at least the 1919 edition inherited from my
> grandfather -- did not mention the "fifteen things" as such, at least
> not as listed in the Wiki, although a few may have been given from a
> Biblical source. Nor did another book I inherited -- /There's A New
> World Coming/, which is a commentary on the NT Revelation.
>
> But since there is no end to foolishness, it is possible that some
> groups have found other sources.
>
Or simply created their own.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

In article <42fd9bb1-d7ba-4804-b0d0-71eac9c403bfn@googlegroups.com>,
Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 5:31:23 PM UTC+1, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <97017cc2-130d-4c5e...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>> >I have perhaps a question in poor taste.
>> >
>> >Some time ago, I got the impression that a
>> >substantial proportion of Christian religion
>> >followers in the U.S. claimed to believe
>> >sincerely that the events of their "Book of
>> >Revelations" would happen very soon.
>> >And that war involving Israel would be,
>> >as it were, a sign of the times. And that any
>> >time things got rough around Israel, those
>> >Christian believers got excited, maybe this
>> >time is when the world ends! Which they /liked/.
>> >
>> >Was this the case? Is it the case in 2023?
>> [Hal Heydt]
>> I wouldn't call it a "substantial" proportion, but they're out
>> there--usually on the extreme right. Dorothy used to annoyed
>> about "end times" predictions. She would quote a Bible passage,
>> which was (supposedly) quoting Jesus saying, "No one knows the
>> day or hour, not even the Son. Only the Father." (And please
>> don't take that as an exact quote by me as I'm going by memory of
>> what Dorothy said.
>>
>> The expectation that the final battle and the end of the world
>> requires Israel to exist is at least part of the reason why many of
>> the extreme right-wing/Biblical literalist types support Israel.
>> So it'll be there to be wiped out.
>I always associated prediction of an imminent second coming with the
>Jehovah's witnesses. Their web site suggests that one might be in the
>air, but they have learned not to make testable predictions, and in fact
>their web site references what I suspect is Dorothy's passage in the
>first part of Matthew 24 -
>https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/end-of-the-world/ FWIW
>there are British Jehovah's witnesses - in fact they have just moved out
>of a hall not far from me to somewhere else in the town. A web search
>suggests that they do not vote in America for religious reasons - and in
>Australia, where voting is compulsory but apparently many people don't
>bother to register, JWs carfully register (because they Bible tells them
>to obey Caesar) - and then claim a religious exemption to avoid voting.

[Hal Heydt]
Ah, yes....the JWs. IIRC, they emerged out the fallout from the
Great Disappointment (1844?). Their last end of the world
prediction was for 1914, which they then modified to use the
"before this generation passes away" language, applying it to the
cohort of 1914. One could argue, based on the best evidence of
documented longevity we have, that that puts the end of the world
no later than 2036. On the other hand, given what happened to
the Eastern European monarchies, at a govermental organization
level, the end of the world *did* begin in 1914 and was completed
in 1918, when those monacrhies were swept away.

As for me...when I see and "end of world" prediction, I just
laugh, move on, and file it under psychoceramics.