On 10/22/2023 1:09 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <42fd9bb1-d7ba-4804-b0d0-71eac9c403bfn@googlegroups.com>,
> Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>> On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 5:31:23 PM UTC+1, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>> In article <97017cc2-130d-4c5e...@googlegroups.com>,
>>> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>>> I have perhaps a question in poor taste.
>>>>
>>>> Some time ago, I got the impression that a
>>>> substantial proportion of Christian religion
>>>> followers in the U.S. claimed to believe
>>>> sincerely that the events of their "Book of
>>>> Revelations" would happen very soon.
>>>> And that war involving Israel would be,
>>>> as it were, a sign of the times. And that any
>>>> time things got rough around Israel, those
>>>> Christian believers got excited, maybe this
>>>> time is when the world ends! Which they /liked/.
>>>>
>>>> Was this the case? Is it the case in 2023?
>>> [Hal Heydt]
>>> I wouldn't call it a "substantial" proportion, but they're out
>>> there--usually on the extreme right. Dorothy used to annoyed
>>> about "end times" predictions. She would quote a Bible passage,
>>> which was (supposedly) quoting Jesus saying, "No one knows the
>>> day or hour, not even the Son. Only the Father." (And please
>>> don't take that as an exact quote by me as I'm going by memory of
>>> what Dorothy said.
>>>
>>> The expectation that the final battle and the end of the world
>>> requires Israel to exist is at least part of the reason why many of
>>> the extreme right-wing/Biblical literalist types support Israel.
>>> So it'll be there to be wiped out.
>> I always associated prediction of an imminent second coming with the
>> Jehovah's witnesses. Their web site suggests that one might be in the
>> air, but they have learned not to make testable predictions, and in fact
>> their web site references what I suspect is Dorothy's passage in the
>> first part of Matthew 24 -
>> https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/end-of-the-world/ FWIW
>> there are British Jehovah's witnesses - in fact they have just moved out
>> of a hall not far from me to somewhere else in the town. A web search
>> suggests that they do not vote in America for religious reasons - and in
>> Australia, where voting is compulsory but apparently many people don't
>> bother to register, JWs carfully register (because they Bible tells them
>> to obey Caesar) - and then claim a religious exemption to avoid voting.
>
> [Hal Heydt]
> Ah, yes....the JWs. IIRC, they emerged out the fallout from the
> Great Disappointment (1844?). Their last end of the world
> prediction was for 1914, which they then modified to use the
> "before this generation passes away" language, applying it to the
> cohort of 1914. One could argue, based on the best evidence of
> documented longevity we have, that that puts the end of the world
> no later than 2036. On the other hand, given what happened to
> the Eastern European monarchies, at a govermental organization
> level, the end of the world *did* begin in 1914 and was completed
> in 1918, when those monacrhies were swept away.
>
> As for me...when I see and "end of world" prediction, I just
> laugh, move on, and file it under psychoceramics.

Psychoceramics? The psychological study of pottery?

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 5:07:10 PM UTC-4, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
<snip>

> Psychoceramics? The psychological study of pottery?
> --

I don't know how widespread the belief is, but one TV minister caught my attention when he announced that the Russians had planted a flag at the North Pole "as predicted in the bible".
I knew about the flag, so I just had to see how he would explain it. Apparently the prediction is that the Jews would be destroyed by "an enemy from the North", and the North Pole is obviously north of Israel, so this is just another sign of the coming war. The rapture will come as soon as the Jews are out of the way, so when they all move to Israel and get nuked, the true Christians will take their shortcut to heaven. The rest of us will perish in misery when there are no more Christians to keep things together.

I thought the whole thing was pretty funny, but it scares me to think that there may be people out there who take this seriously.

John

In article <uh11e6$1s7hc$1@dont-email.me>,
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>"If it happens it is God's will and so any efforts we make towards
>making it happen are therefore also God's will."

On the other hand...

"Such things must come, but woe to the person
through whom they come!" Matthew 18:7

--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston

In article <uh42tp$2lair$2@dont-email.me>,
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>On 10/22/2023 1:09 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> As for me...when I see and "end of world" prediction, I just
>> laugh, move on, and file it under psychoceramics.
>
>Psychoceramics? The psychological study of pottery?

Cracked pottery.

A friend (also a Christian) wrote a short story about the
trials and (heh) tribulations of the angel tasked with
scheduling the End Times. Since "No one knows the day
nor the hour", if any humans figured it out ... oops,
have to re-schedule. Divert that comet, whatever.

(I'm pretty sure she sold that one, but I don't recall where.)

--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston

On 10/22/2023 10:56 PM, Mike Van Pelt wrote:
> In article <uh42tp$2lair$2@dont-email.me>,
> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>> On 10/22/2023 1:09 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>> As for me...when I see and "end of world" prediction, I just
>>> laugh, move on, and file it under psychoceramics.
>>
>> Psychoceramics? The psychological study of pottery?
>
> Cracked pottery.
>
> A friend (also a Christian) wrote a short story about the
> trials and (heh) tribulations of the angel tasked with
> scheduling the End Times. Since "No one knows the day
> nor the hour", if any humans figured it out ... oops,
> have to re-schedule. Divert that comet, whatever.
>
> (I'm pretty sure she sold that one, but I don't recall where.)

I figured Crazy Stones. Cracked Pottery is much better.

Lynn

On 22/10/2023 22.56, Mike Van Pelt wrote:
> In article <uh42tp$2lair$2@dont-email.me>,
> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>> On 10/22/2023 1:09 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>> As for me...when I see and "end of world" prediction, I just
>>> laugh, move on, and file it under psychoceramics.
>>
>> Psychoceramics? The psychological study of pottery?
>
> Cracked pottery.
>
> A friend (also a Christian) wrote a short story about the
> trials and (heh) tribulations of the angel tasked with
> scheduling the End Times. Since "No one knows the day
> nor the hour", if any humans figured it out ... oops,
> have to re-schedule. Divert that comet, whatever.

In a similar vein is Asimov's "The Last Trump".
<https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?58952>

Precis: The End is scheduled for a particular numerical year.
When it gets to be that year (A.D.), Gabriel and company start
organizing to make it happen.

Then, somebody points out that different cultures number years
differently, so the numerical value of the year isn't world-wide
and they can't start yet.

Then, <spoiler> happens.

--
Michael F. Stemper
What happens if you play John Cage's "4'33" at a slower tempo?

In article <uh42tp$2lair$2@dont-email.me>,
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>On 10/22/2023 1:09 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <42fd9bb1-d7ba-4804-b0d0-71eac9c403bfn@googlegroups.com>,
>> [Hal Heydt]
>> As for me...when I see and "end of world" prediction, I just
>> laugh, move on, and file it under psychoceramics.
>
>Psychoceramics? The psychological study of pottery?

[Hal Heydt]
Crackpots.

On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 11:56:16 PM UTC-4, Mike Van Pelt wrote:
> In article <uh42tp$2lair$2...@dont-email.me>,
> Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> >On 10/22/2023 1:09 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >> As for me...when I see and "end of world" prediction, I just
> >> laugh, move on, and file it under psychoceramics.
> >
> >Psychoceramics? The psychological study of pottery?
> Cracked pottery.
>
> A friend (also a Christian) wrote a short story about the
> trials and (heh) tribulations of the angel tasked with
> scheduling the End Times. Since "No one knows the day
> nor the hour", if any humans figured it out ... oops,
> have to re-schedule. Divert that comet, whatever.
>
> (I'm pretty sure she sold that one, but I don't recall where.)

Online, I've run into Christians who say, that while getting the
day and the hour is out, predicting the year and month is perfectly
feasible.

So far, they've been wrong, of course.

pt

On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 2:56:16 PM UTC+11, Mike Van Pelt wrote:
> In article <uh42tp$2lair$2...@dont-email.me>,
> Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> >On 10/22/2023 1:09 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >> As for me...when I see and "end of world" prediction, I just
> >> laugh, move on, and file it under psychoceramics.
> >
> >Psychoceramics? The psychological study of pottery?
> Cracked pottery.
>
> A friend (also a Christian) wrote a short story about the
> trials and (heh) tribulations of the angel tasked with
> scheduling the End Times. Since "No one knows the day
> nor the hour", if any humans figured it out ... oops,
> have to re-schedule. Divert that comet, whatever.

I could easily see that story fitting into the Good Omens universe.

-Moriarty

On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 08:53:12 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:

> On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 07:22:30 GMT, Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org>
> wrote:
>
>
> The "Fifteen Signs of Doomsday" was popular medieval list, derived from
> the apocryphal (2nd-4th century AD) /Apocalypse of Thomas/. But only,
> apparently, the first seven signs. Note that the NT Revelation is
> thought to be from the late 1st century AD, and that apocalyptic
> literature was quite popular back then. The book 2nd Esdras (which, in
> the Protestant Bible, is in the Apocrypha) is an apocalyptic work from
> about the same time as Revelation, but a Jewish one. Note that the
> arrival of 1000 AD was treated as when the world would end, with
> considerable disruption and disappointment when it did not do so.
>

A search in the newspaper archives turns up the first instance
of "fifteen signs" of doomsday in a single article published in
many British papers in 1882. This was in the aftermath of the
failure of the prediction of a legendary prophetess, "Mother
Shipton," that the world would end in 1881. The "fifteen signs"
phrase next turns up in 1933 as "Fifteen Signs of the Second
Coming" titling revival sermons given in Oklahoma. Interestingly,
other research of mine also identifies Oklahoma as an apparent
test market for the new way of packaging astrology in the form of
the daily "sun-sign" horoscope.

On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 07:57:30 GMT, Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org>
wrote:

>On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 08:53:12 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 07:22:30 GMT, Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> The "Fifteen Signs of Doomsday" was popular medieval list, derived from
>> the apocryphal (2nd-4th century AD) /Apocalypse of Thomas/. But only,
>> apparently, the first seven signs. Note that the NT Revelation is
>> thought to be from the late 1st century AD, and that apocalyptic
>> literature was quite popular back then. The book 2nd Esdras (which, in
>> the Protestant Bible, is in the Apocrypha) is an apocalyptic work from
>> about the same time as Revelation, but a Jewish one. Note that the
>> arrival of 1000 AD was treated as when the world would end, with
>> considerable disruption and disappointment when it did not do so.
>>
>
>A search in the newspaper archives turns up the first instance
>of "fifteen signs" of doomsday in a single article published in
>many British papers in 1882. This was in the aftermath of the
>failure of the prediction of a legendary prophetess, "Mother
>Shipton," that the world would end in 1881. The "fifteen signs"
>phrase next turns up in 1933 as "Fifteen Signs of the Second
>Coming" titling revival sermons given in Oklahoma. Interestingly,
>other research of mine also identifies Oklahoma as an apparent
>test market for the new way of packaging astrology in the form of
>the daily "sun-sign" horoscope.

Had you followed, instead of snipping, the reference
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asega-b%C3%B4k], you would have found
that the first reference to the fifteen signs is a /lot/ older than
you think.

Well, unless you are only interested in newspapers, for some reason.

Have I wandered off point?
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 4:56:32 PM UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 07:57:30 GMT, Charles Packer <mai...@cpacker.org>
> wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 08:53:12 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 07:22:30 GMT, Charles Packer <mai...@cpacker.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> The "Fifteen Signs of Doomsday" was popular medieval list, derived from
> >> the apocryphal (2nd-4th century AD) /Apocalypse of Thomas/. But only,
> >> apparently, the first seven signs. Note that the NT Revelation is
> >> thought to be from the late 1st century AD, and that apocalyptic
> >> literature was quite popular back then. The book 2nd Esdras (which, in
> >> the Protestant Bible, is in the Apocrypha) is an apocalyptic work from
> >> about the same time as Revelation, but a Jewish one. Note that the
> >> arrival of 1000 AD was treated as when the world would end, with
> >> considerable disruption and disappointment when it did not do so.
> >>
> >
> >A search in the newspaper archives turns up the first instance
> >of "fifteen signs" of doomsday in a single article published in
> >many British papers in 1882. This was in the aftermath of the
> >failure of the prediction of a legendary prophetess, "Mother
> >Shipton," that the world would end in 1881. The "fifteen signs"
> >phrase next turns up in 1933 as "Fifteen Signs of the Second
> >Coming" titling revival sermons given in Oklahoma. Interestingly,
> >other research of mine also identifies Oklahoma as an apparent
> >test market for the new way of packaging astrology in the form of
> >the daily "sun-sign" horoscope.
> Had you followed, instead of snipping, the reference
> [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asega-b%C3%B4k], you would have found
> that the first reference to the fifteen signs is a /lot/ older than
> you think.
>
> Well, unless you are only interested in newspapers, for some reason.
>
> Have I wandered off point?
> --
> "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
> Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
> Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"
I don't think the thread was ever on point. I think it concentrates on a small number of unrepresentative sects who support Israel because of their beliefs about the apocalypse. We are in danger of caricaturing the larger number of evangelicals who support Israel because of beliefs about Israel being given to Jews by God, of personal contacts, of travel to Israel, in reaction to current or previous attacks on Jews, or any of the perfectly ordinary reasons why somebody might chose to support (or not) another country.

On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 08:53:12 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>I really would expect, however, that the conservative Christians
>currently waiting for the world to end and even those trying to make
>it happen whether God thinks it is time or not are going more on the
>NT Revelation and OT Daniel more than anything else. /Our Day In the
>Light of Prophecy/ -- at least the 1919 edition inherited from my
>grandfather -- did not mention the "fifteen things" as such, at least
>not as listed in the Wiki, although a few may have been given from a
>Biblical source. Nor did another book I inherited -- /There's A New
>World Coming/, which is a commentary on the NT Revelation.

My late grandfather (d. 1992) very definitely believed in the Second
Coming of Jesus Christ and prayed to live long enough to see it
himself.

On the other hand he was dead hostile to any preacher that would
suggest a date for it though many of that ilk believed the foundation
of the state of Israel in 1948 was a necessary prerequisite for it.

On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 21:16:36 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>BTW, which war for Israel ? I assume that since the AD 70 ??? Roman
>war, the 1948, 1966, and 1973 wars are over that they do not count.
>
>It is beginning to look like that this latest atrocity may turn into a
>three front war for Israel. I doubt that it will go nuclear unless the
>Israelis have had it with Iran.

For those of that ilk, it was the foundation of the state of Israel
that started the end times clock.

They're also interested in a siege of Jerusalem since there's a very
about (loose paraphrase) "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies
look up for your redemption draws nigh" though Jerusalem has been
besieged numerous times since AD 70.

On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 14:07:08 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>Psychoceramics? The psychological study of pottery?

Well there WERE quite a few ceramics (both walls and pottery) at
Pompeii which it is suggested Freud might have had something to say
about.....