On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 12:35:16 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> On 4/22/2022 11:14 AM, B.H. wrote:
> > On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 11:57:19 AM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >> On 4/22/2022 10:46 AM, B.H. wrote:
> >>> On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 10:54:38 AM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>> On 4/22/2022 6:50 AM, B.H. wrote:
> >>>>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 6:56:41 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>> On 4/21/2022 5:50 PM, B.H. wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 6:00:53 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 4/21/2022 4:33 PM, B.H. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 5:29:44 PM UTC-4, B.H. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 5:04:22 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 4/21/2022 3:54 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 15:45:38 -0500
> >>>>>>>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/21/2022 3:35 PM, B.H. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 4:34:57 PM UTC-4, B.H. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 3:07:01 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/21/2022 1:56 PM, B.H. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 2:51:35 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/21/2022 1:34 PM, B.H. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No typos. Follow laws.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The CIA is not allowed to monitor US citizens, that is the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FBI's job.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Genius hits a target no one else can see."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Arthur Schopenhauer
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, a lot of people do illegal things. Are you suggesting that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there were no CIA spies near me and they were just extremists?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's possible, but I believe the bot is CIA. In particular, it's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> advanced enough at science-related skill possession--chemistry
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in particular--in a way that I believe, without personal
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge, that the CIA doesn't hire for enough.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -Philip
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyone in the CIA caught spying on US citizens can be fired, so
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they simply leave that to the FBI.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Genius hits a target no one else can see."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Arthur Schopenhauer
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think the FBI would watch me for long, I've done nothing
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> illegal. Have you heard something to the contrary? I am very
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> respectful of all US laws and strive to follow all of them, even
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in this outrageous set of circumstances.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think I've broken any laws, not that I know all of them.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -Philip
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (I wouldn't get upset with you if you stated an allegation you'd
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> heard unless you were also smearing my mathematical talent..)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I have had no basis to accurately assess your mathematical talent.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The church of Jesus Christ of Latter days saints views all gossip
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> (such as repeating allegations) as morally wrong and I agree.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Jesus never existed and doesn't exist. Paul's letters are fake (Paul
> >>>>>>>>>>>> also never existed) and there is no evidence corroborating the writings
> >>>>>>>>>>>> of Josephus whatsoever. #atheism
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> /Flibble
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> There is complete proof that God exists, yet what is very very strange
> >>>>>>>>>>> about this proof is that it does not exist until one actively seeks it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> The reason that this kind of proof seems so very strange is that humans
> >>>>>>>>>>> are very carefully brainwashed to believe that reality is entirely
> >>>>>>>>>>> different than it really is.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> One cannot possibly begin to see this different nature of reality until
> >>>>>>>>>>> after they first discard their fundamental most basic assumption of
> >>>>>>>>>>> philosophical materialism.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Materialism is a form of philosophical monism which holds matter to be
> >>>>>>>>>>> the fundamental substance in nature, and all things, including mental
> >>>>>>>>>>> states and consciousness, are results of material interactions.
> >>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism
> >>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>> Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> "Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
> >>>>>>>>>>> Genius hits a target no one else can see."
> >>>>>>>>>>> Arthur Schopenhauer
> >>>>>>>>>> Oh, what is your proof that God exists? I have a proof that there is no god or higher power. Essentially, it is that the forces of nature are unconscious; if they were conscious and in line with any religious tradition articulated in any sacred text (Bible, Quran, etc.), then God would care about those who are human and do a good enough job of following his rules. However, as we've seen throughout history, many very virtuous people, including slaves in the 1860s and Jewish people in the 1940s, were made to suffer extreme anguish and torture well beyond what even I could imagine; according to me, some very virtuous people who suffered that way will never fully get over it, although they will likely feel better, even after they come back to life. That is why I don't believe any God would exist; e.g., if Jesus were really a powerful son of God, he would have stopped the Holocaust and slavery instead of leaving it to Lincoln and Einstein and others.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> That argument isn't something I originated, but I agree with it wholeheartedly and feel certain there are many other example throughout history of "too much suffering" for a god to allow. If a god liked humanity at all, he/she would do something other than make appearances and make up rules and insist in a way that he/she exists; actual aid would be provided to humans, who would all see the existence of this deity clearly.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> There is no suitable rebuttal to this argument, but I fully accept people whom I see as wrong about the idea of any gods; everyone has the right to be respected and treated as an equal, in spite of possible confused wrong beliefs about a god, which is really just a psychologically appealing (and probably evolved) personification of scientific forces that some people would like to feel able to relate to and more comfortable with as they perceive such forces.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I'm open to replies about this. In particular, there is no argument that proves that there is a god; some might cite Bible passages, but that is merely assuming what one is seeking to prove. Why should anyone believe what is in the Bible or any other sacred text just because lots of other people believe it and want to indoctrinate others with that sort of belief system?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> -Philip White (philip...@yahoo.com)
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> By the way, yes, materialism is wrong, but that does not imply the existence of any god. It merely proves that people are conscious.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> -Philip
> >>>>>>>> I you can change physical reality by merely thinking about changing it
> >>>>>>>> silently in your own mind and not actually doing anything else then and
> >>>>>>>> only then is philosophical materialism fully refuted.
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> "Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
> >>>>>>>> Genius hits a target no one else can see."
> >>>>>>>> Arthur Schopenhauer
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Well of course, you can change your own brain and what data is stored in your memories in it, leading you to behave differently in the future, thereby at least modifying the physical reality that you will see in the future, perhaps the near future. That has nothing to do with any god.
> >>>>>> That is not the scenario that I am referring to. I am not referring to
> >>>>>> any self induced delusion. I am referring to actually changing external
> >>>>>> physical reality as a verified fact.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> It is changed by merely thinking about changing it silently within your
> >>>>>> own mind. No physical action is taken yet a physical result is derived.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That is nothing surprising, and doesn't demonstrate the existence of any god.
> >>>> So if you wish for a cup of coffee and suddenly a cup of coffee appears
> >>>> out of nowhere right in front of you this is not some kind of miracle?
> >>>
> >>> Well, I don't believe in any miracles or supernatural forces.
> >> None-the-less when you see them with your own eyes first hand disbelief
> >> is erased.
> >
> > My guess would be that if people are "seeing miracles" it might be because they are caused by a sort of large network of people who share their beliefs and see the world that way.
> IT CAN BE EMPIRICALLY VERIFIED THAT REALITY HAS NO INDEPENDENT EXISTENCE
> APART FROM MIND IN THAT MERE THOUGHTS HELD SILENTLY WITHIN THE MIND
> BECOME PHYSICALLY MANIFEST AS CHANGES TO PHYSICAL REALITY.

If you writing in all caps means that you are upset that I will not respond to this point, because I am not out to upset you.

> maya, (Sanskrit: “magic” or “illusion”) a fundamental concept in Hindu
> philosophy, notably in the Advaita (Nondualist) school of Vedanta. Maya
> originally denoted the magic power with which a god can make human
> beings believe in what turns out to be an illusion.
> By extension, it later came to mean the powerful force that creates the
> cosmic illusion that the phenomenal world is real.
>

It sounds like you are suggesting that all of reality is an illusion. I.e., from any person's inertial frame, one can see a whole "fake reality" that is merely a projection of an illusion of god that the person perceives, not understanding that this person is the only person other than a god who truly exists. Actually, I remember I read a book called "Flat Land" many years ago, and it discusses the idea of a zero-dimensional organism that can't see what is beyond his own perception of reality. I am not accusing you of being "zero-dimensional," but it sounds like you might be suggesting that every person lives in a sort of "reality box" and perceives only his/her own illusion.

I sort of believed something like that in high school...I thought that the whole world was like "The Matrix," and people were isolated and just playing a "massively multiplayer online roleplaying game." I think the reason I believed that was culture shock...I was used to environment when I was a pre-teen, and then suddenly in high school, it felt like the rules of the environment I was always in had essentially vanished--I thought there were no rules or morality, and there was just this big "open field" of people interacting and doing whatever they pleased. I think I had sort of absorbed some "overwhelming cues" from the outside world in a way that I didn't fully analyze...I was transitioning away from Catholicism, and didn't really know how to analyze my new way of seeing the world and my new environment.

Have you ever looked for alternate explanations? One thing I tried once, just for fun, was to pretend I was a Muslim...I didn't look at the Quran, but I just pretended that the objects in my area inside were "put there by the Muslim god" and that he was communicating to me in code to tell me things--commands about what I should do, since I think Muslims believe that they get commands from God, although you should note that isn't schizophrenia. I only did it for less than an hour...it was interesting and not painful, I didn't think it was for real but it was mildly stimulating, like listening to a neat song that I wouldn't ordinarily listen to.

Have you thought about just pretending that other people are real? It's a good way to investigate your belief system...you could pretend that reality is real, or just assume it, and see if you can discuss that with other people that you perceive in front of you, and try to see if you can find contradictions to the idea that reality exists externally. If possible, you might be able to build an "alternate philosophical understanding" that involves having an external reality, just to learn about it.

-Philip White (philipjwhite@yahoo.com)

> For the Nondualists, maya is thus that cosmic force that presents the
> infinite brahman (the supreme being) as the finite phenomenal world.
> Maya is reflected on the individual level by human ignorance (ajnana) of
> the real nature of the self, which is mistaken for the empirical ego but
> which is in reality identical with brahman.
> https://www.britannica.com/topic/maya-Indian-philosophy
> > This sounds like the kind of thing I would say these days...but if you think about the "miracle GDP," there are going to be historically established and "evolved" practices of, e.g., Christians who want good and maybe even sometimes "miraculous" things to happen for other Christians that they see as virtuous. So, there will be practices and rituals that people will learn to bring about "fortunate outcomes" for people that may "feel like miracles" but that outsiders, especially atheists, would be able to at least partially explain via science and tradition. E.g., if you have the expectation that you will lose you job, and then you pray and do some self-improvement and community service in your area to "serve God" to bolster your prayer to keep your job, community watchers, Christian or otherwise, might put in a good word for you with your boss...and particularly if your boss is Christian, he/she might quietly favor your service efforts as a justification for letting you keep your job when you were going to get let go. You might see it as "a miracle," but, as you would know if you've studied the Birthday Problem in mathematics, some things are just coincidence or caused by connections in the world that cause you to "have pleasant feelings about 'a miracle'" that are not really rooted in any supernatural activity, so much as just something you don't fully understand the mechanics of. Indeed, many wished-for miracles never happen; lots of people have died waiting for miracles that never happened, leading to the people who might have spoken about such "miracles" to be silent since they aren't alive on Earth any more.
> >
> > Here is a link to the Birthday Problem on Wikipedia if you're interested:
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem
> >
> > -Philip White (philip...@yahoo.com)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>> There are some things that do not ever happen, e.g., all virtuous dead people magically coming back to life on another planet that can support life. If something "seemingly impossible" were to happen that the science of forces could not explain, then perhaps you would have some evidence of the existence of a supernatural power. Given, as I think I hinted in a previous post, that the full Theory of Everything was quietly known to Albert Einstein in the 1900s according to my understanding, there is not going to be any "supernatural occurrence" that contradicts that theory, even if it is unknown to the general public right now.
> >>>
> >>> Also, regarding your other post about illusions...some false beliefs and illusions are caused by brain diseases like schizophrenia and bipolar, not anything supernatural. Some people believe or perceive things that aren't really true/existing because of a brain disease, or even drugs in some cases. That is not supernatural, that is fully explicable by science...not that the existence of halluciations and delusions rebuts the existence of any god by itself. (And of course, I would consider a belief in god to be a "sort of defensible assumption," in the sense that a) it might be healthier and more pleasant for some people to see the world that way and it isn't dangerous by itself, and b) you could technically try to keep revising your faith, making new excuses and defenses for the god you may wish to believe in and "perceive" to allow your personification to feel real to you...and that is fine, it's a different lens that I view as definitely false but maybe as "defensible" as saying "economics is an illusion, all human purchasing decisions are made by a secret puppetteer robot that influences us psychologically, telling us what to buy"...the belief seems like a huge stretch, but you could argue for a highly unconventional patchwork notion of human nature, filled with revisions to justify god's existence, to justify your worldview and no one could truly prove you wrong 100% completely. It's a way to see the world that cannot *totally* be proved completely false; no one can prove that Santa Claus doesn't exist either.)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>> The question is, how quickly does external reality change? All that happens is your brain changes, and your brain influences your body, and your surrounding physical area is heavily influnced by "human analysts," including AI on the internet that may impact physical reality, including the wind vectors around you. Essentially, the "measurement apparatuses," working very effectively or not, are all around you, and changes to your thinking produce changes to how your mind is measured. It is likely to be essentially "random-seeming noise" with no strategic value most of the time, especially if you are alone...it's nothing to be scared of, you might notice a bug crawling a little differently based on a different cue you emit when you think something, very slightly altering your body language and thus the wind around you, creating a small, meaningless change in the environment around you based on classical mechanics forces.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It has nothing to do with god though.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -Philip White (philip...@yahoo.com)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> This makes perfect sense when one realizes that reality is mind-made and
> >>>>>> has no independent existence of its own.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Also, the idea that god is a figure of speech is not what Christians believe, at least not any that I have known. The argument for God insists that God is all-knowing and all-powerful--a real-life entity who exists in Heaven and influences human lives.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -Philip
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
> >>>>>> Genius hits a target no one else can see."
> >>>>>> Arthur Schopenhauer
> >>>> --
> >>>> Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott
> >>>>
> >>>> "Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
> >>>> Genius hits a target no one else can see."
> >>>> Arthur Schopenhauer
> >> --
> >> Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott
> >>
> >> "Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
> >> Genius hits a target no one else can see."
> >> Arthur Schopenhauer
> --
> Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott
>
> "Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
> Genius hits a target no one else can see."
> Arthur Schopenhauer