On 2022-05-01 05:49, CDB wrote:
> On 4/30/2022 5:51 PM, Quinn C wrote:
>> Peter T. Daniels:
>>> Quinn C wrote:
>>>> Peter T. Daniels:
>
> [Are we smarter than a Jeopardy contestant?  Sure.]
>
>>>>> Hilarious was the one where they wanted to know what order
>>>>> voles are in, but because the clue included "insectivore" the
>>>>> three of them cycled through carni-, omni-, and herbivore. Ken
>>>>> was most appropriately smug at that point.
>
>>>> It means they had no concept of biological "order". But maybe
>>>> that's beyond high school knowledge.
>
>>> Not in my day ... some people even needed a mnemonic for species
>>> genus family order class kingdom.
>
>>> Or they missed that "order" in the clue was a technical term. Or,
>>> like good Americans, they had no idea what a vole is. We have
>>> shrews for that ecological niche.
>
> Surely not alone.  We have voles where I am, and the distance is not too
> great for a brave little rodent.
>
>> There are voles in North America. Maybe only in the West. I know
>> them from zoos and museums anyway, not real life.
>
> No, in Central Canada too.  I know because one of my dogs used to like
> to take one along on walks, its little tail hanging out the side of his
> mouth.  I think it was PaulW who first clarified the definition of
> "vole" for me here, many years ago.

True.

From:
https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/vole?gclid=Cj0KCQjw37iTBhCWARIsACBt1IyPb-qInmKzXQ4ZJ4g2m9j4TnrfDwaKhHiQpD89pIoD8m0CcJdzrxMaAs-HEALw_wcB

Genus Microtus (about 55 species) is most widespread and diverse; 12
Microtus species occur in Canada (including Richardson's, woodland,
prairie, singing, montane, Townsend's, root, long-tailed, rock,
chestnut-cheeked and creeping voles). Meadow voles (M. pennsylvanicus),
commonly called field mice, occur throughout Canada, in grasslands,
forsets and low arctic tundra. Red-backed voles (Clethrionomys), most
abundant in forests, also occur on the prairies and on tundra west of
Hudson Bay. Heather voles (Phenacomys intermedius), found across the
boreal forest, are rare; sagebrush voles (Lagurus curtatus) are confined
to dry grasslands of southwest Saskatchewan and southeast Alberta.

On 2022-04-30 23:01, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 01/05/22 09:26, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Sun, 1 May 2022 08:21:19 +1000, Peter Moylan
>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 01/05/22 01:34, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>> On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 9:11:45 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> My shower head is at the end of the hose. That lets me direct
>>>>> the flow wherever I want, including under the beard and under
>>>>> the armpits when I'm rinsing. I'd hate to go back to a fixed
>>>>> shower head.
>>>>
>>>> My limited experience with that (European) arrangement suggests
>>>> that it requires three hands to do it efficiently/effectively.
>>>
>>> In our bathroom - and I believe this is typical - there's a place
>>> to hang the shower head so that it acts just like a fixed shower
>>> head. You leave it there for most of the operation, and take it
>>> down only when needed.
>>>
>>> The place where it hangs can be adjusted vertically, which allows
>>> for people with different heights, and for those who don't want to
>>> get their hair wet.
>>
>> The showerhead-on-a-hose I added to my wife's bathroom is a two-part
>> unit.  Part 1 screwed onto the pipe stub.  Part 2 is the showerhead
>> with a magnet where it attaches to Part 1.
>>
>> She doesn't have to fiddle about fitting it into a holder or
>> removing it from the holder.  She just reaches up and detaches or
>> attaches and the magnet holds the parts together.  If she doesn't
>> detach, it functions as a fixed head.
>
> On mine the attachment point is connected to a vertical rod. The
> vertical rod is the thing that allows the height to be adjusted. Most
> people, I think, set the height just once and leave it there, but the
> up-and-down adjustment allows a tall person and a short person to use
> the same shower.
>
> It's a bit like this example:
>
> <https://www.thebluespace.com.au/products/phoenix-teva-rail-shower>
>
> To give you that URL I had to remove a lot of tracking information.

Damn! I did not realize that all that crap in the URL I just poosted was
tracking iformation.
This works...

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/vole

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 6:18:02 PM UTC-4, snide...@gmail.com wrote:

> Remember that the size of the pipe is only part of the equation: the
> water is fed into the shower head under considerable pressure, provided
> either by an elevated system source or by pumps or by both, and it
> flows out of the tub under the pressure of the depth of the water in
> the tub.

NYC's water pressure is supposedly maintained by the fact that the
reservoirs, 50+ miles away, are in the Catskill Mountains, at an elevation
greater than the height of the tallest buildings, so gravity does all the work.

But the skyline is still adorned with the picturesque water tanks atop every
apartment building (and concealed behind cornices in newer construction).
Is that just redundancy?

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 6:21:28 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 01/05/22 01:34, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 9:11:45 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:

> >> My shower head is at the end of the hose. That lets me direct the
> >> flow wherever I want, including under the beard and under the
> >> armpits when I'm rinsing. I'd hate to go back to a fixed shower
> >> head.
> > My limited experience with that (European) arrangement suggests that
> > it requires three hands to do it efficiently/effectively.
>
> In our bathroom - and I believe this is typical - there's a place to
> hang the shower head so that it acts just like a fixed shower head. You
> leave it there for most of the operation, and take it down only when needed.

Yes. The clamps tend to be worn out, so they droop and don't maintain their angle.

> The place where it hangs can be adjusted vertically, which allows for
> people with different heights, and for those who don't want to get their
> hair wet.

On 2022-04-30 10:46, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 07:48:38 -0400, CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 4/29/2022 9:13 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>
>> [April showers]
>>
>>> Drifting a bit...we have been reliably informed that standing to
>>> urinate is done to prove one's masculinity. Is standing to shower a
>>> similar indicator?
>>
>> I sit on a stool in the tub for mine. It's possible my testosterone
>> levels have gone down.
>
> I have a stool in my shower. I sit on it only to wash my feet.

Ugh! Please deposit stools in the toilet.

On 01-May-22 2:56, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 17:51:06 -0400, Quinn C
> <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>> Shower stalls are usually engineered to be less slippery than bathtubs,
>> but it's only a difference of degree.
>
> More important to me is that when getting out of a shower stall you
> don't have to step over the side of the tub which can be very
> dangerous.

For some people, clambering over the side of a bath-tub is less
dangerous than the shower stall.

The bigger obstacle gets your attention, and you focus on the task in
hand. The much smaller shower-tray lip tends to get ignored due to over
familiarity.

I remember a former co-worker who suffered a very serious injury by
falling off a ladder.
I asked him how far he fell.

"I was on the bottom rung & forgot."

--
Sam Plusnet

On Sun, 1 May 2022 08:03:52 -0400
CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 4/30/2022 5:45 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> > CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Lewis wrote:
> >>> Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> As far as my knowledge of shower head mechanics goes, a shower
> >>>> head cannot produce more flow than the pipe delivering the
> >>>> water to the head produces. The shower head design can
> >>>> concentrate the flow or disperse the flow, but it cannot
> >>>> increase or decrease the flow.
>
> >>> Shower heads constrict the flow in a misguided "water saving"
> >>> measure that prevents you getting the full amount of water out of
> >>> the pipe, making showers take longer since you have to stand
> >>> there for much longer to get all the soap rinsed off and the
> >>> shampoo out of your hair.
>
> >>> It takes several minutes to fill the kitchen sink, long enough
> >>> that the water has cooled considerably by the time the sink fills
> >>> up.
>
> >>> Maybe Florida doesn't required low-flow showers and sinks like
> >>> the rest of the country?
>
> >> We do. Not sure if it's federal or provincial. Before I graduated
> >> to a hand-held, a renovator had installed a water-saving showerhead
> >> on me; it contained a metal baffle that was easy enough to remove.
>
> > I've fitted one, it's a great way to feel smug about saving the
> > planet.
>
> I turn off the water once I'm wet, and turn it on again only when I'm
> ready to rinse off; I use luke-warm water, not hot, and don't bathe
I'd use "shower" as the verb here.
> quite every day, since I live alone. Let the world content itself with
> that.

Excellent. I mostly do that too. NB I'm in the UK not Australia!

>
> --
> "Wer-ald", the age of man. The planet will go on, and life will
> persist, but we and the life we evolved with are for it, IMO.

And here I was hoping for another 3 billion years!

>

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On Sun, 1 May 2022, at 04:57:49, Snidely posted:
>Just this Sunday, Paul Wolff explained that ...
>> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022, at 03:14:50, Snidely posted:
>>>Paul Wolff was thinking very hard :
>>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022, at 18:04:51, Snidely posted:
>>>
>>>>>That would be a dual-axis valve. The axis of the rotation, and
>>>>>the axis of the translation (x-y movement).
>>>>>
>>>> That is one single axis which is shared by the two movements. An
>>>>axis is a straight line. Tony's rotation is rotation about that
>>>>line, and Tony's pushing and pulling is translation along that
>>>>same line. "Dual-axis" would imply two different lines. Does that help?
>>>
>>>Sorry, mathematics, physics, and engineering allows axes to be where
>>>they are needed. In this case, there are two axes which happen to
>>>be colinear.
>>
>> Excellent! They are one line. Is it one knob too?
>
>No. Wasn't that clear from my description? "lever", "knob", qv.

Regrettably, the word 'lever' was excised, but as I see it, whether you
call a hand-grip a knob or a lever doesn't make any difference if it is
there to enable a spindle to be turned. I had in mind another image from
a URL quoted upthread showing a push-pull rotatable knob, which would
have one working axis for both translation and rotation.
>
>>>Try plotting a phase space diagram and try to figure out where those
>>>axes are in "normal" space.
>>
>> I've never been much of a plotter, or a phaser either, come to that.
>
>I would have expected your job to require a certain amount of
>visualization skill.
>
I have that. To be frank, I didn't understand that phase space sentence
at all, and was tempted to josh my way past it. I know of so many phases
and so many spaces that their combination was horribly meaningless.
--
Paul

On Sun, 1 May 2022 19:13:25 +0100, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

>On 01-May-22 2:56, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 17:51:06 -0400, Quinn C
>> <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>>> Shower stalls are usually engineered to be less slippery than bathtubs,
>>> but it's only a difference of degree.
>>
>> More important to me is that when getting out of a shower stall you
>> don't have to step over the side of the tub which can be very
>> dangerous.
>
>For some people, clambering over the side of a bath-tub is less
>dangerous than the shower stall.

I suppose that's possible, but It's not the case for me or my wife.

>The bigger obstacle gets your attention, and you focus on the task in
>hand. The much smaller shower-tray lip tends to get ignored due to over
>familiarity.
>
>I remember a former co-worker who suffered a very serious injury by
>falling off a ladder.
>I asked him how far he fell.
>
>"I was on the bottom rung & forgot."

On 01-May-22 20:18, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Sun, 1 May 2022 08:03:52 -0400
> CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 4/30/2022 5:45 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>>> CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Lewis wrote:
>>>>> Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> As far as my knowledge of shower head mechanics goes, a shower
>>>>>> head cannot produce more flow than the pipe delivering the
>>>>>> water to the head produces. The shower head design can
>>>>>> concentrate the flow or disperse the flow, but it cannot
>>>>>> increase or decrease the flow.
>>
>>>>> Shower heads constrict the flow in a misguided "water saving"
>>>>> measure that prevents you getting the full amount of water out of
>>>>> the pipe, making showers take longer since you have to stand
>>>>> there for much longer to get all the soap rinsed off and the
>>>>> shampoo out of your hair.
>>
>>>>> It takes several minutes to fill the kitchen sink, long enough
>>>>> that the water has cooled considerably by the time the sink fills
>>>>> up.
>>
>>>>> Maybe Florida doesn't required low-flow showers and sinks like
>>>>> the rest of the country?
>>
>>>> We do. Not sure if it's federal or provincial. Before I graduated
>>>> to a hand-held, a renovator had installed a water-saving showerhead
>>>> on me; it contained a metal baffle that was easy enough to remove.
>>
>>> I've fitted one, it's a great way to feel smug about saving the
>>> planet.
>>
>> I turn off the water once I'm wet, and turn it on again only when I'm
>> ready to rinse off; I use luke-warm water, not hot, and don't bathe
> I'd use "shower" as the verb here.
>> quite every day, since I live alone. Let the world content itself with
>> that.
>
> Excellent. I mostly do that too. NB I'm in the UK not Australia!
>
>>
>> --
>> "Wer-ald", the age of man. The planet will go on, and life will
>> persist, but we and the life we evolved with are for it, IMO.
>
> And here I was hoping for another 3 billion years!

That's a lot of birthday candles.

--
Sam Plusnet

* Kerr-Mudd, John:

> On Sun, 1 May 2022 08:03:52 -0400
> CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 4/30/2022 5:45 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>>> CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Lewis wrote:
>>>>> Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> As far as my knowledge of shower head mechanics goes, a shower
>>>>>> head cannot produce more flow than the pipe delivering the
>>>>>> water to the head produces. The shower head design can
>>>>>> concentrate the flow or disperse the flow, but it cannot
>>>>>> increase or decrease the flow.
>>
>>>>> Shower heads constrict the flow in a misguided "water saving"
>>>>> measure that prevents you getting the full amount of water out of
>>>>> the pipe, making showers take longer since you have to stand
>>>>> there for much longer to get all the soap rinsed off and the
>>>>> shampoo out of your hair.
>>
>>>>> It takes several minutes to fill the kitchen sink, long enough
>>>>> that the water has cooled considerably by the time the sink fills
>>>>> up.
>>
>>>>> Maybe Florida doesn't required low-flow showers and sinks like
>>>>> the rest of the country?
>>
>>>> We do. Not sure if it's federal or provincial. Before I graduated
>>>> to a hand-held, a renovator had installed a water-saving showerhead
>>>> on me; it contained a metal baffle that was easy enough to remove.
>>
>>> I've fitted one, it's a great way to feel smug about saving the
>>> planet.
>>
>> I turn off the water once I'm wet, and turn it on again only when I'm
>> ready to rinse off; I use luke-warm water, not hot, and don't bathe
> I'd use "shower" as the verb here.

Me too, because I do take baths occasionally. Not so much for cleaning -
I shower before. Japanese habit.

>> quite every day, since I live alone. Let the world content itself with
>> that.
>
> Excellent. I mostly do that too. NB I'm in the UK not Australia!

I do the shutting off as well. On the days I wash my hair (every 5-7
days since it's long), it gets more complex - I turn the water on four
to five separate times. That gets pretty annoying with a system that
doesn't preserve the temperature setting when the water's off.

--
Motives? Who cares for motives? Humans, perhaps.
-- Klingon Ambassador Kell

Paul Wolff suggested that ...
> On Sun, 1 May 2022, at 04:57:49, Snidely posted:
>>Just this Sunday, Paul Wolff explained that ...
>>> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022, at 03:14:50, Snidely posted:
>>>>Paul Wolff was thinking very hard :
>>>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022, at 18:04:51, Snidely posted:
>>>>
>>>>>>That would be a dual-axis valve. The axis of the rotation, and the
>>>>>> axis of the translation (x-y movement).
>>>>>>
>>>>> That is one single axis which is shared by the two movements. An axis is
>>>>> a straight line. Tony's rotation is rotation about that line, and
>>>>> Tony's pushing and pulling is translation along that same line.
>>>>> "Dual-axis" would imply two different lines. Does that help?
>>>>
>>>>Sorry, mathematics, physics, and engineering allows axes to be where they
>>>> are needed. In this case, there are two axes which happen to be
>>>> colinear.
>>>
>>> Excellent! They are one line. Is it one knob too?
>>
>>No. Wasn't that clear from my description? "lever", "knob", qv.
>
> Regrettably, the word 'lever' was excised, but as I see it, whether you call
> a hand-grip a knob or a lever doesn't make any difference if it is there to
> enable a spindle to be turned. I had in mind another image from a URL quoted
> upthread showing a push-pull rotatable knob, which would have one working
> axis for both translation and rotation.

Sorry, Tony's description is what you were mislabeling single-axis,
isn't it. That is not one axis, that is two colinear axes. Again,
think of polar coordinates, with turning the knob generating theta, and
pulling the knob generating r.

>>>>Try plotting a phase space diagram and try to figure out where those axes
>>>> are in "normal" space.
>>>
>>> I've never been much of a plotter, or a phaser either, come to that.
>>
>>I would have expected your job to require a certain amount of visualization
>> skill.
>>
> I have that. To be frank, I didn't understand that phase space sentence at
> all, and was tempted to josh my way past it. I know of so many phases and so
> many spaces that their combination was horribly meaningless.

It's a more abstract space than is needed for shower controls. We
don't need to plot the angular momentum of the knob being rotated.

/dps

--
There's nothing inherently wrong with Big Data. What matters, as it
does for Arnold Lund in California or Richard Rothman in Baltimore, are
the questions -- old and new, good and bad -- this newest tool lets us
ask. (R. Lerhman, CSMonitor.com)

On Mon, 2 May 2022, at 01:40:26, Snidely posted:
>Paul Wolff suggested that ...
>> On Sun, 1 May 2022, at 04:57:49, Snidely posted:
>>>Just this Sunday, Paul Wolff explained that ...
>>>> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022, at 03:14:50, Snidely posted:
>>>>>Paul Wolff was thinking very hard :
>>>>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022, at 18:04:51, Snidely posted:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>That would be a dual-axis valve. The axis of the rotation, and
>>>>>>>the axis of the translation (x-y movement).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is one single axis which is shared by the two movements. An
>>>>>>axis is a straight line. Tony's rotation is rotation about that
>>>>>>line, and Tony's pushing and pulling is translation along that
>>>>>>same line. "Dual-axis" would imply two different lines. Does
>>>>>>that help?
>>>>>
>>>>>Sorry, mathematics, physics, and engineering allows axes to be
>>>>>where they are needed. In this case, there are two axes which
>>>>>happen to be colinear.
>>>>
>>>> Excellent! They are one line. Is it one knob too?
>>>
>>>No. Wasn't that clear from my description? "lever", "knob", qv.
>>
>> Regrettably, the word 'lever' was excised, but as I see it, whether
>>you call a hand-grip a knob or a lever doesn't make any difference if
>>it is there to enable a spindle to be turned. I had in mind another
>>image from a URL quoted upthread showing a push-pull rotatable knob,
>>which would have one working axis for both translation and rotation.
>

There is a communication failure here. I understand the sort of 'axis'
that applies to the manually adjustable shower controls that we are
writing about to be an imaginary line in the control valve structure
about which, or along which, a part moves.

Everything I've read here tells me that there are two motions in the
control we're discussing. One is rotary and one is longitudinal. It
seems to me that they share a common axis. Snidely says that they
operate on two co-linear axes. To my mind, there is no difference: the
axis-defining line is one and the same. Or perhaps he thinks co-linear
means intersecting? That works if my final para below is what he's
thinking about.

This is where it started:
Tony:
> The shower I use has one controlling part as shown in this link. Pull
> it out, and the water starts. Turn it left or right to control the
> hot/cold mix.
Snidely:
That would be a dual-axis valve. The axis of the rotation, and the
axis of the translation (x-y movement).
Tony:
> https://www.deltafaucet.com/dw/image/v2/BFJJ_PRD/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-delta-master-catalog/default/dw19a36440/images/large/H71-B1.png?
>sw=600&sh=600&sm=fit

Now Snidely writes addressing me, PaulW:
>Sorry, Tony's description is what you were mislabeling single-axis,
>isn't it. That is not one axis, that is two colinear axes. Again,
>think of polar coordinates, with turning the knob generating theta, and
>pulling the knob generating r.

Polar co-ordinates don't help. Why does Snidely want me to think of
them? Yes, rotation is measured as an angle. but pulling the knob in/out
along the axis of rotation isn't 'r', which on the contrary is a radial
displacement. Where did such a design come into this thread? No-one has
introduced such a shower control here yet, have they?

Maybe I've got it now. Tony wrote "The shower I use has one controlling
part as shown in this link. Pull it out, and the water starts. Turn it
left or right to control the hot/cold mix." You can see from the URL the
blue and red arcs on the knob, which clearly show that "Turn it left or
right" means "rotate the knob anti-clockwise or clockwise". Perhaps
Snidely thinks "Turn it left or right" means, more literally, "incline
the knob leftwards or rightwards" as if it were a projecting control
lever mounted to rotate about a vertical axis. But it doesn't, and it
isn't.
--
Paul

Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Saturday or thereabouts, Snidely declared ...
> > Paul Wolff was thinking very hard :
> >> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022, at 18:04:51, Snidely posted:
> >
> >>>That would be a dual-axis valve. The axis of the rotation, and the axis
> >>> of the translation (x-y movement).
> >>>
> >> That is one single axis which is shared by the two movements. An axis is a
> >> straight line. Tony's rotation is rotation about that line, and Tony's
> >> pushing and pulling is translation along that same line. "Dual-axis" would
> >> imply two different lines. Does that help?
> >
> > Sorry, mathematics, physics, and engineering allows axes to be where
> > they are needed. In this case, there are two axes which happen to be
> > colinear. Try plotting a phase space diagram and try to figure out where
> > those axes are in "normal" space.
> >
>
> Phase space is, of course, a red herring here.

Yes, it is more like the knob space. [1]
Long ago I heard a sad physicist say: 'The knob space is zero'.

He had an experiments with many knobs, and he could make it work
only for one particular setting with all the knobs just right.
So there was nothing to experiment,

Jan

[1] And reserve phase space for the case where there are also momenta.

On 5/1/2022 3:18 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>>> CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Lewis wrote:
>>>>> Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>>> As far as my knowledge of shower head mechanics goes, a
>>>>>> shower head cannot produce more flow than the pipe
>>>>>> delivering the water to the head produces. The shower head
>>>>>> design can concentrate the flow or disperse the flow, but
>>>>>> it cannot increase or decrease the flow.

>>>>> Shower heads constrict the flow in a misguided "water
>>>>> saving" measure that prevents you getting the full amount of
>>>>> water out of the pipe, making showers take longer since you
>>>>> have to stand there for much longer to get all the soap
>>>>> rinsed off and the shampoo out of your hair.

>>>>> It takes several minutes to fill the kitchen sink, long
>>>>> enough that the water has cooled considerably by the time the
>>>>> sink fills up.

>>>>> Maybe Florida doesn't required low-flow showers and sinks
>>>>> like the rest of the country?

>>>> We do. Not sure if it's federal or provincial. Before I
>>>> graduated to a hand-held, a renovator had installed a
>>>> water-saving showerhead on me; it contained a metal baffle that
>>>> was easy enough to remove.

>>> I've fitted one, it's a great way to feel smug about saving the
>>> planet.

>> I turn off the water once I'm wet, and turn it on again only when
>> I'm ready to rinse off; I use luke-warm water, not hot, and don't
>> bathe
> I'd use "shower" as the verb here.
>> quite every day, since I live alone. Let the world content itself
>> with that.

> Excellent. I mostly do that too. NB I'm in the UK not Australia!

Nor I. Central Canada has plenty of fresh water, and my shower-water
goes back into the Ottawa River it came from; but I make the gesture.

>> -- "Wer-ald", the age of man. The planet will go on, and life
>> will persist, but we and the life we evolved with are for it, IMO.

> And here I was hoping for another 3 billion years!

No hay gran malo que tantos años dure.

In message <mn.f3957e641173dc3f.127094@snitoo> Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
> Lewis speculated:
>> In message <113p6hln14sgi2blfiddb2ajcmt0jvgrk9@4ax.com> Tony Cooper
>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 17:59:52 -0700, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>
>>>> Sometimes that is a reason, but many many times it is the flowrate into
>>>> the shower that is the issue. The tub does not include pumps to
>>>> increase the pressure at the drain.
>>
>>> I just can't conceive of the tub filling from the shower with the
>>> drain open. I've never seen anything close to that.
>>
>> Agreed. It seems very very odd to me. The drain on a tub is at least
>> twice the size of the pipe feeding in water.
>>
>> If the water from the shower backs-up in the tub, something is very wrong
>> and needs to be fixed.

> So you guys really think I can't recognize a stopped-up drain? Sheesh.

It's hard to say, since what you are describing is something I have
never seen WITHOUT a stopped drain.

Of course, stopped or clogged drains are not always obvious.

> At home, my ideal shower rate is at about 1 gpm. The maximum flow from
> the spout is about 4 gpm, and in 30 seconds the water will reach the
> far end of the tub and a depth of 1 inch at the drain end. It will
> take 2 1/2 minutes to drain, which is no record but definitely not
> plugged and comparable to other tubs I've experienced.

This does not match any shower andrub u have ever been in. It does not
take 2.5 minutes to drain 1 gallon of water out of any drain in the
hose, and most certainly not the large drina on the tub. The bathroom
sink has the smallest drain pipe, and it will drain a gallon of water on
just a bit under 1 minute. It will take a bit over 1 minute to fill a
gallon of water.

> Yes, Tony, I am the type of nerd who measures things.

I do not need to measure anything to know that when I take a shower, the
tub does not fill with water, The tub does not fill *at all*. The is
not an inch of water in it. There is nto 1/4" of water in it. The drain
is never covered with water unless the train stopper is closed.

--
We’re despairing in style, as befits two former High Kings of Fillory.

In message <t4lsvb$tfh$1@gioia.aioe.org> CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/30/2022 5:45 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>> CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Lewis wrote:
>>>> Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>> As far as my knowledge of shower head mechanics goes, a shower
>>>>> head cannot produce more flow than the pipe delivering the
>>>>> water to the head produces. The shower head design can
>>>>> concentrate the flow or disperse the flow, but it cannot
>>>>> increase or decrease the flow.

>>>> Shower heads constrict the flow in a misguided "water saving"
>>>> measure that prevents you getting the full amount of water out of
>>>> the pipe, making showers take longer since you have to stand
>>>> there for much longer to get all the soap rinsed off and the
>>>> shampoo out of your hair.

>>>> It takes several minutes to fill the kitchen sink, long enough
>>>> that the water has cooled considerably by the time the sink fills
>>>> up.

>>>> Maybe Florida doesn't required low-flow showers and sinks like
>>>> the rest of the country?

>>> We do. Not sure if it's federal or provincial. Before I graduated
>>> to a hand-held, a renovator had installed a water-saving showerhead
>>> on me; it contained a metal baffle that was easy enough to remove.

>> I've fitted one, it's a great way to feel smug about saving the
>> planet.

> I turn off the water once I'm wet, and turn it on again only when I'm
> ready to rinse off; I use luke-warm water, not hot, and don't bathe
> quite every day, since I live alone. Let the world content itself with
> that.

Ah, the old 'saving water" myth, a lie perpertrated by water companies
to cause people to use less water so they can complain about falling
revenue and raise theirs rates.

Almost all the water "used" is used for agriculture (it's about 85%
here). Of the water not used for agriculture, almost all of it is used
for industry and commercial businesses. The amount used for residential
purposes is a tiny fraction. Of that, nearly all of the water use is
maintaining lawns, which if you do not do, you will get a citation from
the municipality you are in.

The exact fractions will vary by where you live, but in Colorado it is
quite literally impossible to 'save' water as every single drop of water
that Colorado is not legally required to allow out of the state is not
allowed out of the state. Most of the water in the Colorado river is
used for high-water crops in the deserts of Arizona and California.
Almost all the water of the Arkansas flows into Kansas, Oklahoma, and
Arkansas to water cows, and nearly all of the North and South Platte
Rivers go into Nebraska for corn.

--
Angie, Angie, when will those clouds all disappear? Angie, Angie,
where will it lead us from here? With no lovin' in our soul and
no money in our coats You can't say we're satisfied But Angie,
Angie--You can't say we never tried

In message <1oidhzu3o2e09$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> * Kerr-Mudd, John:

>> On Sun, 1 May 2022 08:03:52 -0400
>> CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/30/2022 5:45 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>>>> CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Lewis wrote:
>>>>>> Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> As far as my knowledge of shower head mechanics goes, a shower
>>>>>>> head cannot produce more flow than the pipe delivering the
>>>>>>> water to the head produces. The shower head design can
>>>>>>> concentrate the flow or disperse the flow, but it cannot
>>>>>>> increase or decrease the flow.
>>>
>>>>>> Shower heads constrict the flow in a misguided "water saving"
>>>>>> measure that prevents you getting the full amount of water out of
>>>>>> the pipe, making showers take longer since you have to stand
>>>>>> there for much longer to get all the soap rinsed off and the
>>>>>> shampoo out of your hair.
>>>
>>>>>> It takes several minutes to fill the kitchen sink, long enough
>>>>>> that the water has cooled considerably by the time the sink fills
>>>>>> up.
>>>
>>>>>> Maybe Florida doesn't required low-flow showers and sinks like
>>>>>> the rest of the country?
>>>
>>>>> We do. Not sure if it's federal or provincial. Before I graduated
>>>>> to a hand-held, a renovator had installed a water-saving showerhead
>>>>> on me; it contained a metal baffle that was easy enough to remove.
>>>
>>>> I've fitted one, it's a great way to feel smug about saving the
>>>> planet.
>>>
>>> I turn off the water once I'm wet, and turn it on again only when I'm
>>> ready to rinse off; I use luke-warm water, not hot, and don't bathe
>> I'd use "shower" as the verb here.

> Me too, because I do take baths occasionally. Not so much for cleaning -
> I shower before. Japanese habit.

I've never been to Japan, but this is clearly the only sensible way to
have a bath.

--
Ille Qui Nos Omnes Servabit

In message <t4ktlv$17bv$1@gioia.aioe.org> JAB <here@is.invalid> wrote:
> Both Carlson & Kirk quietly deleted their offending tweets in order to
> regain access to their accounts, essentially going back on their
> declarations they would never "apologize" or remove their posts
> misgendering a Biden admin official who is transgender.

Yeah, I was very disappointed to see the mealymouthed liar and
testicle-tanning moron tweeting again.

> https://twitter.com/TerriE1001/status/1519796600511602688?cxt=HHwWgIC5hZe9s5cqAAAA

--
Ashes to ashes, funk to funky
We know Major Tom's a junkie
Strung out in heaven's high
Hitting an all time low

In message <5upq6h9v3f40i0qcm1u017rmf3e4t60occ@4ax.com> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 07:48:38 -0400, CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:

>>On 4/29/2022 9:13 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>
>>[April showers]
>>
>>> Drifting a bit...we have been reliably informed that standing to
>>> urinate is done to prove one's masculinity. Is standing to shower a
>>> similar indicator?
>>
>>I sit on a stool in the tub for mine. It's possible my testosterone
>>levels have gone down.

> I have a stool in my shower. I sit on it only to wash my feet.

I use mine when I wash my feet and when i just want to sit under hot
water for a few minutes, especially when my back/neck are sore.

--
Han : You said you wanted to be around when I made a mistake, well,
this could be it, sweetheart.
Leia: I take it back.

On Sun, 1 May 2022 21:10:36 -0400, Quinn C
<lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Kerr-Mudd, John:
>
>> On Sun, 1 May 2022 08:03:52 -0400
>> CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/30/2022 5:45 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>>>> CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Lewis wrote:
>>>>>> Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> As far as my knowledge of shower head mechanics goes, a shower
>>>>>>> head cannot produce more flow than the pipe delivering the
>>>>>>> water to the head produces. The shower head design can
>>>>>>> concentrate the flow or disperse the flow, but it cannot
>>>>>>> increase or decrease the flow.
>>>
>>>>>> Shower heads constrict the flow in a misguided "water saving"
>>>>>> measure that prevents you getting the full amount of water out of
>>>>>> the pipe, making showers take longer since you have to stand
>>>>>> there for much longer to get all the soap rinsed off and the
>>>>>> shampoo out of your hair.
>>>
>>>>>> It takes several minutes to fill the kitchen sink, long enough
>>>>>> that the water has cooled considerably by the time the sink fills
>>>>>> up.
>>>
>>>>>> Maybe Florida doesn't required low-flow showers and sinks like
>>>>>> the rest of the country?
>>>
>>>>> We do. Not sure if it's federal or provincial. Before I graduated
>>>>> to a hand-held, a renovator had installed a water-saving showerhead
>>>>> on me; it contained a metal baffle that was easy enough to remove.
>>>
>>>> I've fitted one, it's a great way to feel smug about saving the
>>>> planet.
>>>
>>> I turn off the water once I'm wet, and turn it on again only when I'm
>>> ready to rinse off; I use luke-warm water, not hot, and don't bathe
>> I'd use "shower" as the verb here.
>
>Me too, because I do take baths occasionally. Not so much for cleaning -
>I shower before. Japanese habit.

I never take a bath. I always shower. Taking a bath means you soak in
the dirty water you just washed off your body.

* Ken Blake:

> On Sun, 1 May 2022 21:10:36 -0400, Quinn C
> <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>>* Kerr-Mudd, John:
>>
>>> On Sun, 1 May 2022 08:03:52 -0400
>>> CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/30/2022 5:45 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>>>>> CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Lewis wrote:
>>>>>>> Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>> As far as my knowledge of shower head mechanics goes, a shower
>>>>>>>> head cannot produce more flow than the pipe delivering the
>>>>>>>> water to the head produces. The shower head design can
>>>>>>>> concentrate the flow or disperse the flow, but it cannot
>>>>>>>> increase or decrease the flow.
>>>>
>>>>>>> Shower heads constrict the flow in a misguided "water saving"
>>>>>>> measure that prevents you getting the full amount of water out of
>>>>>>> the pipe, making showers take longer since you have to stand
>>>>>>> there for much longer to get all the soap rinsed off and the
>>>>>>> shampoo out of your hair.
>>>>
>>>>>>> It takes several minutes to fill the kitchen sink, long enough
>>>>>>> that the water has cooled considerably by the time the sink fills
>>>>>>> up.
>>>>
>>>>>>> Maybe Florida doesn't required low-flow showers and sinks like
>>>>>>> the rest of the country?
>>>>
>>>>>> We do. Not sure if it's federal or provincial. Before I graduated
>>>>>> to a hand-held, a renovator had installed a water-saving showerhead
>>>>>> on me; it contained a metal baffle that was easy enough to remove.
>>>>
>>>>> I've fitted one, it's a great way to feel smug about saving the
>>>>> planet.
>>>>
>>>> I turn off the water once I'm wet, and turn it on again only when I'm
>>>> ready to rinse off; I use luke-warm water, not hot, and don't bathe
>>> I'd use "shower" as the verb here.
>>
>>Me too, because I do take baths occasionally. Not so much for cleaning -
>>I shower before. Japanese habit.
>
> I never take a bath. I always shower. Taking a bath means you soak in
> the dirty water you just washed off your body.

Yes, if you don't read all the one and a half lines you quoted from me.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

On 02-May-22 13:22, CDB wrote:
> On 5/1/2022 3:18 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

>> Excellent. I mostly do that too. NB I'm in the UK not Australia!
>
> Nor I.  Central Canada has plenty of fresh water, and my shower-water
> goes back into the Ottawa River it came from; but I make the gesture.

If you make that gesture whilst in the shower, you are unlikely to cause
offence.

--
Sam Plusnet

In message <j7307hpbmj1r3fnnfvbg802t7msqijnjbc@4ax.com> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 1 May 2022 21:10:36 -0400, Quinn C
> <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>>* Kerr-Mudd, John:
>>
>>> On Sun, 1 May 2022 08:03:52 -0400
>>> CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/30/2022 5:45 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>>>>> CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Lewis wrote:
>>>>>>> Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>> As far as my knowledge of shower head mechanics goes, a shower
>>>>>>>> head cannot produce more flow than the pipe delivering the
>>>>>>>> water to the head produces. The shower head design can
>>>>>>>> concentrate the flow or disperse the flow, but it cannot
>>>>>>>> increase or decrease the flow.
>>>>
>>>>>>> Shower heads constrict the flow in a misguided "water saving"
>>>>>>> measure that prevents you getting the full amount of water out of
>>>>>>> the pipe, making showers take longer since you have to stand
>>>>>>> there for much longer to get all the soap rinsed off and the
>>>>>>> shampoo out of your hair.
>>>>
>>>>>>> It takes several minutes to fill the kitchen sink, long enough
>>>>>>> that the water has cooled considerably by the time the sink fills
>>>>>>> up.
>>>>
>>>>>>> Maybe Florida doesn't required low-flow showers and sinks like
>>>>>>> the rest of the country?
>>>>
>>>>>> We do. Not sure if it's federal or provincial. Before I graduated
>>>>>> to a hand-held, a renovator had installed a water-saving showerhead
>>>>>> on me; it contained a metal baffle that was easy enough to remove.
>>>>
>>>>> I've fitted one, it's a great way to feel smug about saving the
>>>>> planet.
>>>>
>>>> I turn off the water once I'm wet, and turn it on again only when I'm
>>>> ready to rinse off; I use luke-warm water, not hot, and don't bathe
>>> I'd use "shower" as the verb here.
>>
>>Me too, because I do take baths occasionally. Not so much for cleaning -
>>I shower before. Japanese habit.

> I never take a bath. I always shower. Taking a bath means you soak in
> the dirty water you just washed off your body.

Not if you do it correctly, no.

--
Margo: Although Dark King is a little generic as far as villain names go,
wouldn’t you say?
Eliot: I have notes.

On 03/05/22 01:16, Lewis wrote:

> Ah, the old 'saving water" myth, a lie perpertrated by water
> companies to cause people to use less water so they can complain
> about falling revenue and raise theirs rates.
>
> Almost all the water "used" is used for agriculture (it's about 85%
> here). Of the water not used for agriculture, almost all of it is
> used for industry and commercial businesses. The amount used for
> residential purposes is a tiny fraction. Of that, nearly all of the
> water use is maintaining lawns, which if you do not do, you will get
> a citation from the municipality you are in.

You can be fined here for watering your lawn. At certain times of year
you can water it with a hose (which you must hold in your hand) for a
limited number of minutes. At other times that is not allowed. Fixed
sprinklers haven't been allowed for years now.

Some people park their cars on the lawn to wash them. Car-washing is
permitted with a bucket, but not with a hose.

(All this from memory. It's possible that the restrictions were eased
this summer because of the floods.)

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org