On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 19:35:41 +0100, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

>On 28-Apr-22 17:55, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On 4/27/2022 6:37 PM, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>
>>> But still, I have my doubts. I sometimes find that those hot-air
>>> hand-dryers with a built-in sensor refuse to acknowledge my existence
>>> at all, or get bored with me after a few seconds - but long before I
>>> have dry hands.
>>
>>
>> I hate those machines, for two reasons:
>>
>> 1. They never dry my hands adequately.
>>
>> 2. They're useless if you wash anything besides your hands (for
>> example, your face).
>
>On some models, the outlet either rotates or flips up to direct the air
>upwards.

OK, I've never seen one like that.

>I still wouldn't want that directed at my face though.

Nor would i.

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 19:38:18 +0100, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

>OK. "It's different when I do it."

John Selden's Table-Talk (c. 1654):

"Preachers say, 'Do as I say, not as I do.'"

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Selden>

* Sam Plusnet:

> On 28-Apr-22 12:55, CDB wrote:
>> On 4/27/2022 6:37 PM, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>
>>> Then there was the sensor-operated door that worked for everyone else
>>>  but, one day, decided to ignore me entirely.
>>
>> Oh, dear, what can the matter be?
>> Sam'l Plusnet, locked in the lavatory -
>> Sensors ignored him, though why is a mystery.
>> Nobody knew he was there.
>
> It was far worse than that.
> It was in a Panasonic factory.

You didn't pass the "I am not a robot" test?

--
.... she didn't exactly approve of the military. She didn't
exactly disapprove, either; she just made it plain that she
thought there were better things for intelligent human beings
to do with their lives. -- L. McMaster Bujold, Memory

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 14:24:15 -0600, JAB <here@is.invalid> wrote:

>On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 19:38:18 +0100, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>
>>OK. "It's different when I do it."
>
>John Selden's Table-Talk (c. 1654):
>
>"Preachers say, 'Do as I say, not as I do.'"

Long-haired preachers go out every night.
Try to tell you what's wrong and what's right...

On 29/04/22 04:31, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 28-Apr-22 3:03, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 28/04/22 11:35, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>
>>> You are obviously quite a bit out of the technology loop. This
>>> "press the button" thing went out of style sometime just after
>>> you had your last haircut.
>>>
>>> You should be programming Alexa to turn on the shower, set the
>>> temperature, and set the flow rate, and to do it all by voice
>>> command.
>>
>> I used to be able to use voice control on my phone. Then my wife
>> bought an Apple gadget to play music. Now, when I want to make a
>> phone call, the wrong Siri answers.
>>
> With the Amazon stuff you have a small range of 'trigger' names you
> can use. Can you do the same with the Apple stuff & set one of them
> up to answer to a different name?

Good question. I'll have to read some manuals. Actually, I never did
discover whether any documentation came with that gadget my wife bought.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

* Sam Plusnet:

> On 28-Apr-22 12:40, CDB wrote:
>> On 4/27/2022 2:20 PM, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>> Quinn C wrote:
>>
>>>> That people who despise one identifiable group that is an "other"
>>>> to them tend to also despise other such groups is a well-known
>>>> correlation, so "orthogonal" seems misplaced.
>>
>>> A necessary part of despising some group is to say:
>>
>>> "Those people are all alike!"
>>
>>> Don't your words echo a similar sentiment?
>>
>> Yabbut, the group in question is defined only by its behaviour.  In that
>> sense, its members are all alike, and it isn't improbable that they
>> would share a related tendency.
>
> That's worded as though you are introducing some distinction, but I'm
> d@mned if I can actually see an effective distinction in what you said.

The distinction is between stereotypes of the kind "all (or many) people
with biological characteristic A have attitude X" and "all (or many)
people with attitude X also have attitude Y". The latter kind of
statement has a much better chance of standing up to empirical scrutiny
than the former.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

* Sam Plusnet:

> On 28-Apr-22 13:40, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Sam Plusnet:
>>
>>> On 27-Apr-22 15:34, Quinn C wrote:
>>>
>>>> That people who despise one identifiable group that is an "other" to
>>>> them tend to also despise other such groups is a well-known correlation,
>>>> so "orthogonal" seems misplaced.
>>>
>>> A necessary part of despising some group is to say:
>>>
>>> "Those people are all alike!"
>>>
>>> Don't your words echo a similar sentiment?
>>
>> Not at all. I pointed out that the correlation isn't 0, but didn't claim
>> that it was 1. Stop thinking in binaries!
>>
> OK. "It's different when I do it."

Are you just too lazy to digest it, or is the goal to get to me? You'd
need a whiff of an argument for that.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

* Ken Blake:

> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 18:04:23 -0700, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>The shower in question was old-school: seperate hot and cold valves.
>
> You say "old school," but isn't that still most common? Ours are
> single valve, but I had to choose and pay extra for them when the
> house was built.
>
> I know at least one person (my brother-in law) who prefers separate
> hot and cold valves.

I was confused the first time I was in a hotel in North America, because
the shower was such that one couldn't regulate water flow and
temperature separately: one handle to turn, from off to cold to hot. It
didn't help that any markings that might have been there originally were
worn off.

Over time, I learned that this, with variations, is standard in hotels
and inns, and also common in homes. How common exactly in homes, I can't
say, but the majority of the places I've lived had something like that.

In Germany, for decades at this point, most showers have had either
separate flow and temperature handles or one combined one. In my current
Canadian apartment, I have one of these: turn for temperature, lift for
flow.

I was quite happy to pay $150 or so extra for a one-handle design on the
two bathroom sinks in my condo, so I associate separate cold and hot
valves with extreme parsimony.

--
Who would know aught of art must learn and then take his ease.

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 12:43:30 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 8:40:59 AM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>
>>>> There was a they on Jeopardy this week (I don't know which specific
>>>> gender identity word they accept, if any)!
>>> There were TWO theys! The boy with pink hair and brown beard,
>>> who was dedicating his $1000 to a migraine-support group, and
>>> next to him the girl with no memorable characteristics who came
>>> in second.
>>
>> Really - when did that come up? I'm only sure regarding the
>> male-presenting one after I checked out the extra content on
>> jeopardy.com.
>
> Ken said "they" referring to each of them -- I think in the intros to
> the conversations.

I caught that in only one of the conversations, but even then I wasn't
totally sure until I had it re-confirmed.
>> The clue (about the Adetokunbo family) had me completely stumped, so it
>> was no surprise it was a "sports question in disguise".
>
> I think Ken said that before going to the answers.

Yes, hence the quotation marks.

Yesterday, Mattea said she wanted to "get sports out of the way", but
her real weak spot was again science. Her American history seems pretty
good, for something she might naturally have a handicap in.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

On 29/04/2022 12:37 am, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 14:24:15 -0600, JAB <here@is.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 19:38:18 +0100, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>>
>>> OK. "It's different when I do it."
>>
>> John Selden's Table-Talk (c. 1654):
>>
>> "Preachers say, 'Do as I say, not as I do.'"
>
> Long-haired preachers go out every night.
> Try to tell you what's wrong and what's right...

Back porch preacher preaching at me
Acting like he wrote the golden rules
Shaking his fist and speeching at me
Shouting from his soap box like a fool
Come Sunday morning he's lying in bed
With his eye all red, with the wine in his head
Wishing he was dead when he oughta be
Heading for Sunday school
Clean up your own backyard
Oh don't you hand me none of your lines
Clean up your own backyard
You tend to your business, I'll tend to mine

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

On 2022-04-28 21:10, Quinn C wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:
>
>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 12:43:30 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 8:40:59 AM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>>
>>>>> There was a they on Jeopardy this week (I don't know which specific
>>>>> gender identity word they accept, if any)!
>>>> There were TWO theys! The boy with pink hair and brown beard,
>>>> who was dedicating his $1000 to a migraine-support group, and
>>>> next to him the girl with no memorable characteristics who came
>>>> in second.
>>>
>>> Really - when did that come up? I'm only sure regarding the
>>> male-presenting one after I checked out the extra content on
>>> jeopardy.com.
>>
>> Ken said "they" referring to each of them -- I think in the intros to
>> the conversations.
>
> I caught that in only one of the conversations, but even then I wasn't
> totally sure until I had it re-confirmed.
>
>>> The clue (about the Adetokunbo family) had me completely stumped, so it
>>> was no surprise it was a "sports question in disguise".
>>
>> I think Ken said that before going to the answers.
>
> Yes, hence the quotation marks.
>
> Yesterday, Mattea said she wanted to "get sports out of the way", but
> her real weak spot was again science. Her American history seems pretty
> good, for something she might naturally have a handicap in.

Not quite relevant to this discussion, but speaking of Jeopardy, I have
noticed that quite a few times, Ken Jennings has 'helped' a contestant
in a way that (I think) Alex never did. He has, when someone has just
spoken the answer, reminded them to phrase it in the form of a question.

And once, either tonight or last night, has accepted the answer without
the contestant having to repeat it in the form of a question.

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 23:10:01 -0400, Quinn C
<lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Ken Blake:
>
>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 18:04:23 -0700, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>The shower in question was old-school: seperate hot and cold valves.
>>
>> You say "old school," but isn't that still most common? Ours are
>> single valve, but I had to choose and pay extra for them when the
>> house was built.
>>
>> I know at least one person (my brother-in law) who prefers separate
>> hot and cold valves.
>
>I was confused the first time I was in a hotel in North America, because
>the shower was such that one couldn't regulate water flow and
>temperature separately: one handle to turn, from off to cold to hot. It
>didn't help that any markings that might have been there originally were
>worn off.
>
>Over time, I learned that this, with variations, is standard in hotels
>and inns, and also common in homes. How common exactly in homes, I can't
>say, but the majority of the places I've lived had something like that.
>

I don't think I've ever lived anywhere with a shower where the water
flow is adjustable other than by not fully opening the taps. Our
current shower has a single knob that is pulled out to start the water
(and turned to adjust the mix of hot and cold) flow. I could pull it
out partially, I suppose. That would reduce flow, but it would
require standing directly under the shower head to get wet.

I don't understand why anyone would want to adjust the flow.
--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

On Thursday, Tony Cooper exclaimed wildly:
> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 23:10:01 -0400, Quinn C
> <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>> * Ken Blake:
>>
>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 18:04:23 -0700, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The shower in question was old-school: seperate hot and cold valves.
>>>
>>> You say "old school," but isn't that still most common? Ours are
>>> single valve, but I had to choose and pay extra for them when the
>>> house was built.
>>>
>>> I know at least one person (my brother-in law) who prefers separate
>>> hot and cold valves.
>>
>> I was confused the first time I was in a hotel in North America, because
>> the shower was such that one couldn't regulate water flow and
>> temperature separately: one handle to turn, from off to cold to hot. It
>> didn't help that any markings that might have been there originally were
>> worn off.

That's the "single axis" design in my descriptions.

>> Over time, I learned that this, with variations, is standard in hotels
>> and inns, and also common in homes. How common exactly in homes, I can't
>> say, but the majority of the places I've lived had something like that.
>>
>
> I don't think I've ever lived anywhere with a shower where the water
> flow is adjustable other than by not fully opening the taps. Our
> current shower has a single knob that is pulled out to start the water
> (and turned to adjust the mix of hot and cold) flow. I could pull it
> out partially, I suppose. That would reduce flow, but it would
> require standing directly under the shower head to get wet.
>
> I don't understand why anyone would want to adjust the flow.

No, I can see you don't.

I happen to not want to fill the tub in 5 minutes while showering.
Ther are times when a stinging shower is good, but some shower heads
manage that with low flow. It's very easy to find shower heads that
give a full shower without requiring full flow. The relatively
inexpensive shower head the landlord provided me can reach the far end
of the tub even at the lower flow I prefer.

But I suppose in Florida, having too much water is normal.

/dps

--
Yes, I have had a cucumber soda. Why do you ask?

Peter Moylan pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
> On 29/04/22 04:31, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> On 28-Apr-22 3:03, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> On 28/04/22 11:35, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>
>>>> You are obviously quite a bit out of the technology loop. This
>>>> "press the button" thing went out of style sometime just after
>>>> you had your last haircut.
>>>>
>>>> You should be programming Alexa to turn on the shower, set the
>>>> temperature, and set the flow rate, and to do it all by voice
>>>> command.
>>>
>>> I used to be able to use voice control on my phone. Then my wife
>>> bought an Apple gadget to play music. Now, when I want to make a
>>> phone call, the wrong Siri answers.
>>>
>> With the Amazon stuff you have a small range of 'trigger' names you
>> can use. Can you do the same with the Apple stuff & set one of them
>> up to answer to a different name?
>
> Good question. I'll have to read some manuals. Actually, I never did
> discover whether any documentation came with that gadget my wife bought.

Don't worry, it's online and she'll read it to you.

/dps

--
We’ve learned way more than we wanted to know about the early history
of American professional basketball, like that you could have once
watched a game between teams named the Indianapolis Kautskys and the
Akron Firestone Non-Skids. -- fivethirtyeight.com

Sam Plusnet suggested that ...
> On 28-Apr-22 17:55, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On 4/27/2022 6:37 PM, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>
>>> But still, I have my doubts. I sometimes find that those hot-air
>>> hand-dryers with a built-in sensor refuse to acknowledge my existence
>>> at all, or get bored with me after a few seconds - but long before I
>>> have dry hands.
>>
>>
>> I hate those machines, for two reasons:
>>
>> 1. They never dry my hands adequately.

The "World" brand fits that description. Not all do.

>> 2. They're useless if you wash anything besides your hands (for
>> example, your face).
>
> On some models, the outlet either rotates or flips up to direct the air
> upwards. I still wouldn't want that directed at my face though.

Most of the stronger models don't do that. But some gyms mount a
second unit higher up for a hair dryer.

You shouldn't use a hand blower in a hospital, given their habit of
stirring up more than water droplets.

/dps

--
Trust, but verify.

On 4/28/2022 2:40 PM, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> CDB wrote:
>> Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>> Quinn C wrote:

>>>> That people who despise one identifiable group that is an
>>>> "other" to them tend to also despise other such groups is a
>>>> well-known correlation, so "orthogonal" seems misplaced.

>>> A necessary part of despising some group is to say:

>>> "Those people are all alike!"

>>> Don't your words echo a similar sentiment?

>> Yabbut, the group in question is defined only by its behaviour. In
>> that sense, its members are all alike, and it isn't improbable that
>> they would share a related tendency.

> That's worded as though you are introducing some distinction, but I'm
> d@mned if I can actually see an effective distinction in what you
> said.

Your use of "those people are all alike" in that context implied to me
that you saw it as an unfair characterisation. I was pointing out that
grouping people according to their (objectionable) behaviour is not
always unfair. Hitler was a vegetarian and kind to dogs, apparently,
but in a more cogent sense he, Himmler, Goering, and Goebbels were all
alike. Mengele too.

On 4/28/2022 10:30 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>>> CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Quinn C wrote:
>>>>> * Anders D. Nygaard:

>>>>>> There is a subtle but important difference between "being
>>>>>> targeted as a trans", and being disgreed with for comments
>>>>>> and opinions relating to transness. In my reading, Tony has
>>>>>> stayed in the latter department, and not given any evidence
>>>>>> of transphobia in this exchange.

>>>>>> But I suppose it may be easier to confuse the two, when
>>>>>> you have skin in the game.

>>>>> No, it's flat-out discrimination, not only by Tony: it's
>>>>> gracefully accepted when a cis person says "I'm not a he, I'm
>>>>> a she" or "I'm not a she, I'm a he", but when I do the
>>>>> equivalent as a non-binary trans person (i.e "I'm not a he or
>>>>> a she"), then it's called "ordering people around" or
>>>>> "wanting to control people".

>>>> I don't recall ever hearing a cis-person say I'm a "he",
>>>> although I did once hear a heterosexual male cross-dresser
>>>> insist on being called "she" when in character; and I once saw,
>>>> in a disreputable bar I used to go to sometimes, a fiery little
>>>> transvestite make a cis-woman's evening Hell for having been
>>>> shirty to her in the ladies' washroom.

>>>> -- The Chez Henri it was, in Hull, as it then was.

>>> Hull is Hell. Kingston sounds posher.

>> I can confirm that it freezes over for a good part of the year.

>> How would you rate "Gatineau", its post-incorporation name? That
>> also includes Aylmer, so no more feelthy Anglo names 'round here.

> Oh, not this one:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingston_upon_Hull#Nightlife,_bars_and_pubs

I
>
was talking about a city you weren't talking bout, true. But, fair
play, you had introduced a fresh new Hull into the conversation; I
preferred to continue with my old one.

There is a Kingston here too, about 120 miles south of Gatineau. A
local Catholic school is called "Regiopolis", but I have been told that
the city's name is from "King Stone", like that of the one you said was
posher-sounding.

On 4/29/2022 12:34 AM, lar3ryca wrote:
> Quinn C wrote:
>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>> Quinn C wrote:
>>>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>>>> Quinn C wrote:

>>>>>> There was a they on Jeopardy this week (I don't know which
>>>>>> specific gender identity word they accept, if any)!
>>>>> There were TWO theys! The boy with pink hair and brown
>>>>> beard, who was dedicating his $1000 to a migraine-support
>>>>> group, and next to him the girl with no memorable
>>>>> characteristics who came in second.

>>>> Really - when did that come up? I'm only sure regarding the
>>>> male-presenting one after I checked out the extra content on
>>>> jeopardy.com.

>>> Ken said "they" referring to each of them -- I think in the
>>> intros to the conversations.

>> I caught that in only one of the conversations, but even then I
>> wasn't totally sure until I had it re-confirmed.
>>>> The clue (about the Adetokunbo family) had me completely
>>>> stumped, so it was no surprise it was a "sports question in
>>>> disguise".

>>> I think Ken said that before going to the answers.

>> Yes, hence the quotation marks.

>> Yesterday, Mattea said she wanted to "get sports out of the way",
>> but her real weak spot was again science. Her American history
>> seems pretty good, for something she might naturally have a
>> handicap in.

> Not quite relevant to this discussion, but speaking of Jeopardy, I
> have noticed that quite a few times, Ken Jennings has 'helped' a
> contestant in a way that (I think) Alex never did. He has, when
> someone has just spoken the answer, reminded them to phrase it in the
> form of a question.

> And once, either tonight or last night, has accepted the answer
> without the contestant having to repeat it in the form of a
> question.

Alex did that in "single" Jeopardy sometimes. In the second stage it
was sudden death.

I got more answers last night than Mattea Roach did. Of course, I
didn't have to ring in.

On 4/28/2022 12:58 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
> CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>>> Tony Cooper wrote:

>>>>> Even if was in position, I would follow the conventional
>>>>> practice of men at the urinals in public toilets studiously
>>>>> avoiding looking at other men at the urinals.

>>>> Recently I was talking about the protocol for using a row of
>>>> urinals, which evolved from the protocol used when the urinals
>>>> were a single continuous trough.

>>> I ran the NY Marathon three times--in 1985, 1986, and 1987.

>>> Before the race began, there was a large continuous trough of a
>>> urinal, made of two long planks of wood covered with plastic
>>> wrap, with a hose pouring water into one end, washing out of the
>>> other.

>>> Do they still do that? I don't know.

>>> The race began on the Verrezano-Narrows bridge. However even
>>> though there was the urinal I described, and almost all men used
>>> it, many of us (including me) were often nervous enough that when
>>> the race started we went to the side of the bridge and peed over
>>> the edge.

>> And what of poor Rosie Ruiz?

> There were portapotties for women's use.

And lines in front of them, no doubt.

* CDB:

> On 4/28/2022 10:30 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>> CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>>>> CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Quinn C wrote:
>>>>>> * Anders D. Nygaard:
>
>>>>>>> There is a subtle but important difference between "being
>>>>>>> targeted as a trans", and being disgreed with for comments
>>>>>>> and opinions relating to transness. In my reading, Tony has
>>>>>>> stayed in the latter department, and not given any evidence
>>>>>>> of transphobia in this exchange.
>
>>>>>>> But I suppose it may be easier to confuse the two, when
>>>>>>> you have skin in the game.
>
>>>>>> No, it's flat-out discrimination, not only by Tony: it's
>>>>>> gracefully accepted when a cis person says "I'm not a he, I'm
>>>>>> a she" or "I'm not a she, I'm a he", but when I do the
>>>>>> equivalent as a non-binary trans person (i.e "I'm not a he or
>>>>>> a she"), then it's called "ordering people around" or
>>>>>> "wanting to control people".
>
>>>>> I don't recall ever hearing a cis-person say I'm a "he",
>>>>> although I did once hear a heterosexual male cross-dresser
>>>>> insist on being called "she" when in character; and I once saw,
>>>>> in a disreputable bar I used to go to sometimes, a fiery little
>>>>> transvestite make a cis-woman's evening Hell for having been
>>>>> shirty to her in the ladies' washroom.
>
>>>>> -- The Chez Henri it was, in Hull, as it then was.
>
>>>> Hull is Hell. Kingston sounds posher.
>
>>> I can confirm that it freezes over for a good part of the year.
>
>>> How would you rate "Gatineau", its post-incorporation name? That
>>> also includes Aylmer, so no more feelthy Anglo names 'round here.
>
>> Oh, not this one:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingston_upon_Hull#Nightlife,_bars_and_pubs
>
> I
>>
> was talking about a city you weren't talking bout, true. But, fair
> play, you had introduced a fresh new Hull into the conversation; I
> preferred to continue with my old one.
>
> There is a Kingston here too, about 120 miles south of Gatineau. A
> local Catholic school is called "Regiopolis", but I have been told that
> the city's name is from "King Stone", like that of the one you said was
> posher-sounding.

If you talk about Kingston without further context, my thoughts will
land on the one where "I had to leave a little girl".

--
.... why the English language is riddled with all this gender.
What's it FOR? How did it GET there? Will it go AWAY now please?
-- Helen Zaltzman

* Tony Cooper:

> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 23:10:01 -0400, Quinn C
> <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>>* Ken Blake:
>>
>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 18:04:23 -0700, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>The shower in question was old-school: seperate hot and cold valves.
>>>
>>> You say "old school," but isn't that still most common? Ours are
>>> single valve, but I had to choose and pay extra for them when the
>>> house was built.
>>>
>>> I know at least one person (my brother-in law) who prefers separate
>>> hot and cold valves.
>>
>>I was confused the first time I was in a hotel in North America, because
>>the shower was such that one couldn't regulate water flow and
>>temperature separately: one handle to turn, from off to cold to hot. It
>>didn't help that any markings that might have been there originally were
>>worn off.
>>
>>Over time, I learned that this, with variations, is standard in hotels
>>and inns, and also common in homes. How common exactly in homes, I can't
>>say, but the majority of the places I've lived had something like that.
>>
>
> I don't think I've ever lived anywhere with a shower where the water
> flow is adjustable other than by not fully opening the taps. Our
> current shower has a single knob that is pulled out to start the water
> (and turned to adjust the mix of hot and cold) flow. I could pull it
> out partially, I suppose. That would reduce flow, but it would
> require standing directly under the shower head to get wet.
>
> I don't understand why anyone would want to adjust the flow.

Depends on your water pressure. When I visited a friend in Arizona, I
felt the water was attacking me, it came down so hard - and it wasn't
adjustable. I found this particularly bad in a place where you should be
ready to make do with a drizzle. I ended up only turning it on for a few
seconds at a time.

In that hotel where I first used such a valve, that was also the problem
- I turned the knob to near the middle, it was already giving me too
much water for my taste, but it still wasn't getting hot.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

In message <ul1h4iq4mrn8.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> * Ken Blake:

>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 18:04:23 -0700, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>The shower in question was old-school: seperate hot and cold valves.
>>
>> You say "old school," but isn't that still most common? Ours are
>> single valve, but I had to choose and pay extra for them when the
>> house was built.
>>
>> I know at least one person (my brother-in law) who prefers separate
>> hot and cold valves.

> I was confused the first time I was in a hotel in North America, because
> the shower was such that one couldn't regulate water flow and
> temperature separately: one handle to turn, from off to cold to hot. It
> didn't help that any markings that might have been there originally were
> worn off.

Odd. Most of the single handle showers I've seen have two movement
directions, turning to adjust the temperature as you describe, and
pulling down or up to regulate the flow of water. That is what is in our
bathroom, and in most bathrooms I've seen.

The hospital room had the sort of mechanism you describe, with no ability
to regulate the flow, but the glow was so low there would be no way
anyone would want to reduce it.

> Over time, I learned that this, with variations, is standard in hotels
> and inns, and also common in homes. How common exactly in homes, I can't
> say, but the majority of the places I've lived had something like that.

It's been quite a number of years since we stayed in a hotel that didn't
have a shower you could adjust to the flow in, but we also haven't styed
in any chains or motels in a long time.

> In Germany, for decades at this point, most showers have had either
> separate flow and temperature handles or one combined one. In my current
> Canadian apartment, I have one of these: turn for temperature, lift for
> flow.

I think these are pretty much the usual anymore.

Our current house was built in 1963 and the original bathroom has two
knobs in the shower. An addition was put on the house in 1974-ish, and
that bathroom has a single handle with a dual axis. A standalone shower
was added to the basement at the same time, and it also has a dual axis
handle.

> I was quite happy to pay $150 or so extra for a one-handle design on the
> two bathroom sinks in my condo, so I associate separate cold and hot
> valves with extreme parsimony.

I can't imagine why. If anything, these older taps are more wasteful.

--
Lobotomy means never having to say you're sorry -- or anything else.

In article <mn.e86d7e64a5826ce5.127094@snitoo>, snidely.too@gmail.com
says...
>
> On Thursday, Tony Cooper exclaimed wildly:
> > On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 23:10:01 -0400, Quinn C
> > <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> >
> >> * Ken Blake:
> >>
> >>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 18:04:23 -0700, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> The shower in question was old-school: seperate hot and cold valves.
> >>>
> >>> You say "old school," but isn't that still most common? Ours are
> >>> single valve, but I had to choose and pay extra for them when the
> >>> house was built.
> >>>
> >>> I know at least one person (my brother-in law) who prefers separate
> >>> hot and cold valves.
> >>
> >> I was confused the first time I was in a hotel in North America, because
> >> the shower was such that one couldn't regulate water flow and
> >> temperature separately: one handle to turn, from off to cold to hot. It
> >> didn't help that any markings that might have been there originally were
> >> worn off.
>
> That's the "single axis" design in my descriptions.
>
> >> Over time, I learned that this, with variations, is standard in hotels
> >> and inns, and also common in homes. How common exactly in homes, I can't
> >> say, but the majority of the places I've lived had something like that.
> >>
> >
> > I don't think I've ever lived anywhere with a shower where the water
> > flow is adjustable other than by not fully opening the taps. Our
> > current shower has a single knob that is pulled out to start the water
> > (and turned to adjust the mix of hot and cold) flow. I could pull it
> > out partially, I suppose. That would reduce flow, but it would
> > require standing directly under the shower head to get wet.
> >
> > I don't understand why anyone would want to adjust the flow.
>
> No, I can see you don't.
>
> I happen to not want to fill the tub in 5 minutes while showering.

Tub? You climb in the bath to have a shower?

I shower in the walk-in wetroom. On-off + water temperature set is on
one easy to adjust dial, unaffected by other water use elsewhere in the
property.

The four shower stream functions (rainfall to high-intensity jet) are
equally easy to adjust, on the shower itself.

This is all set up for our future decrepitude, when we could either, sit
on a seat with mobility aids, or drive in on a wheel chair, with or
without a personal care assistant who could hose us down while remaining
dressed and dry. (I've often done this to the grandkids).

Rainfall is ideal to occasionally rinse dust off the larger
houseplants. Jet-power-blast is useful when cleaning the walls and
floor. Husband also uses it for sluicing the salt and sand off his
wetsuit.

Janet

>

On 4/29/2022 8:36 AM, Quinn C wrote:
> * CDB:
>> Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>>> CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>>>>> CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Quinn C wrote:
>>>>>>> * Anders D. Nygaard:

>>>>>>>> There is a subtle but important difference between
>>>>>>>> "being targeted as a trans", and being disgreed with
>>>>>>>> for comments and opinions relating to transness. In my
>>>>>>>> reading, Tony has stayed in the latter department, and
>>>>>>>> not given any evidence of transphobia in this
>>>>>>>> exchange.

>>>>>>>> But I suppose it may be easier to confuse the two,
>>>>>>>> when you have skin in the game.
>>
>>>>>>> No, it's flat-out discrimination, not only by Tony: it's
>>>>>>> gracefully accepted when a cis person says "I'm not a he,
>>>>>>> I'm a she" or "I'm not a she, I'm a he", but when I do
>>>>>>> the equivalent as a non-binary trans person (i.e "I'm not
>>>>>>> a he or a she"), then it's called "ordering people
>>>>>>> around" or "wanting to control people".

>>>>>> I don't recall ever hearing a cis-person say I'm a "he",
>>>>>> although I did once hear a heterosexual male cross-dresser
>>>>>> insist on being called "she" when in character; and I once
>>>>>> saw, in a disreputable bar I used to go to sometimes, a
>>>>>> fiery little transvestite make a cis-woman's evening Hell
>>>>>> for having been shirty to her in the ladies' washroom.

>>>>>> -- The Chez Henri it was, in Hull, as it then was.

>>>>> Hull is Hell. Kingston sounds posher.

>>>> I can confirm that it freezes over for a good part of the
>>>> year.

>>>> How would you rate "Gatineau", its post-incorporation name?
>>>> That also includes Aylmer, so no more feelthy Anglo names
>>>> 'round here.

>>> Oh, not this one:
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingston_upon_Hull#Nightlife,_bars_and_pubs

>>
>>>
I

>> was talking about a city you weren't talking bout, true. But,
>> fair play, you had introduced a fresh new Hull into the
>> conversation; I preferred to continue with my old one.

>> There is a Kingston here too, about 120 miles south of Gatineau.
>> A local Catholic school is called "Regiopolis", but I have been
>> told that the city's name is from "King Stone", like that of the
>> one you said was posher-sounding.

> If you talk about Kingston without further context, my thoughts will
> land on the one where "I had to leave a little girl".

Maudix Québécoix.

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 01:49:27 -0700, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thursday, Tony Cooper exclaimed wildly:
>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 23:10:01 -0400, Quinn C
>> <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>
>>> * Ken Blake:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 18:04:23 -0700, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The shower in question was old-school: seperate hot and cold valves.
>>>>
>>>> You say "old school," but isn't that still most common? Ours are
>>>> single valve, but I had to choose and pay extra for them when the
>>>> house was built.
>>>>
>>>> I know at least one person (my brother-in law) who prefers separate
>>>> hot and cold valves.
>>>
>>> I was confused the first time I was in a hotel in North America, because
>>> the shower was such that one couldn't regulate water flow and
>>> temperature separately: one handle to turn, from off to cold to hot. It
>>> didn't help that any markings that might have been there originally were
>>> worn off.
>
>That's the "single axis" design in my descriptions.
>
>>> Over time, I learned that this, with variations, is standard in hotels
>>> and inns, and also common in homes. How common exactly in homes, I can't
>>> say, but the majority of the places I've lived had something like that.
>>>
>>
>> I don't think I've ever lived anywhere with a shower where the water
>> flow is adjustable other than by not fully opening the taps. Our
>> current shower has a single knob that is pulled out to start the water
>> (and turned to adjust the mix of hot and cold) flow. I could pull it
>> out partially, I suppose. That would reduce flow, but it would
>> require standing directly under the shower head to get wet.
>>
>> I don't understand why anyone would want to adjust the flow.
>
>No, I can see you don't.
>
>I happen to not want to fill the tub in 5 minutes while showering.

I have never been in a shower that regulates water flow, and never
been in a shower where the water accumulates enough to cover my pinky
toe during a shower.

>Ther are times when a stinging shower is good, but some shower heads
>manage that with low flow. It's very easy to find shower heads that
>give a full shower without requiring full flow.

As far as my knowledge of shower head mechanics goes, a shower head
cannot produce more flow than the pipe delivering the water to the
head produces. The shower head design can concentrate the flow or
disperse the flow, but it cannot increase or decrease the flow.

> The relatively
>inexpensive shower head the landlord provided me can reach the far end
>of the tub even at the lower flow I prefer.

At the far end of the tub, the water from a properly aimed shower head
would be directed at your feet if you are standing as one normally
does when taking a shower. When I shower, I prefer that the water be
directed higher on my body, so I don't stand at the far end.

>But I suppose in Florida, having too much water is normal.

You do understand that while Florida is bounded by water on three
sides, that we do not obtain our bathwater from those sources?

Drifting a bit...we have been reliably informed that standing to
urinate is done to prove one's masculinity. Is standing to shower a
similar indicator?
--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.