* CDB <t50cl2$1v0e$1 @gioia.aioe.org> :
Wrote on Thu, 5 May 2022 07:32:45 -0400:

> On 5/4/2022 8:07 AM, Lewis wrote:
>> Anyway, it showed a free standing bird feeder with baffles above an
>> below and possible a sign that said "Squirrel Proof Bird Feeder"
>
>> Then it showed a squirrel in a top hat and cape, then a cloud of
>> smoke with a BAMF! or similar, and then the squirrel eating all the
>> seeds out of the bird feeder.
>
> They are talented critters, but not a bit kind to each other. Each
> against all.

The ones here taunt the cats. they look down on the cat from tree
trunks and yap away loudly forever, trashing their tails, and
ocassionally nip down and climb back up, while the cats can only look up
angrily swishing *their* tails slowly waiting for a chance to attack,
until they get tired and go away

But the squirrels aren't always on their guard, and on many days the
cats make a meal out of them when they least expect it.

On Wed, 4 May 2022, at 23:08:03, Snidely posted:
>Monday, Paul Wolff murmurred ...
>
>> Polar co-ordinates don't help.
>
>Rather, they are only sufficient for plotting the inputs. Two more
>axes are require to also plot the outputs (temperature and flow rate).

We were discussing the mechanism of a combined water flow and
temperature control valve. We weren't plotting performance parameters.
>
>> Why does Snidely want me to think of
>> them? Yes, rotation is measured as an angle. but pulling the knob in/out
>> along the axis of rotation isn't 'r',
>
>I am curious as to how you solve puzzles which involve transformations.

Facts, logic and inspiration, same as usual. But "puzzles which involve
transformation" is an indefinitely large set (in my non-mathematician's
terms, anyway). I can hardly give a reliable general rule.
>
>Pulling the knob produces a displacement along an axis which in the
>conventional 3-space view of the world would probably be labeled 'x'.
>But 'r' is also a displacement, and polar coordinates describe some
>problem spaces better than xyz does.

Space? But I can guess what is meant.

>In this case, a transformation of the x value to the r value is the
>obvious one,

Not really. Do you claim it is an obvious thing to do? They are mutually
perpendicular, aren't they? I wouldn't find it at all obvious to
transform the axis of a cylinder (for example) into its radius, for a
start. That doesn't stack up. And what would be the point?

>and for our purpose the transformation is just r = x.
>
Are you sure?
>
>> which on the contrary is a radial
>> displacement. Where did such a design come into this thread? No-one has
>> introduced such a shower control here yet, have they?
>
>Don't patent applications have drawings and descriptions of operation?

Why do you ask? Some do, some don't. Go and take a look if you're not
certain which are which.

Patent specifications shouldn't include ambiguities in their specific
descriptions of any embodiments of the subject invention. Clarity and
understanding are key. If they include a term like "dual-axis", they
should make damn sure that it is coherently explained, and if necessary
defined too.

--
Paul

On Thursday or thereabouts, Paul Wolff declared ...
> On Wed, 4 May 2022, at 23:08:03, Snidely posted:
>>Monday, Paul Wolff murmurred ...
>>
>>> Polar co-ordinates don't help.
>>
>>Rather, they are only sufficient for plotting the inputs. Two more axes are
>> require to also plot the outputs (temperature and flow rate).
>
> We were discussing the mechanism of a combined water flow and temperature
> control valve. We weren't plotting performance parameters.
>>
>>> Why does Snidely want me to think of
>>> them? Yes, rotation is measured as an angle. but pulling the knob in/out
>>> along the axis of rotation isn't 'r',
>>
>>I am curious as to how you solve puzzles which involve transformations.
>
> Facts, logic and inspiration, same as usual. But "puzzles which involve
> transformation" is an indefinitely large set (in my non-mathematician's
> terms, anyway). I can hardly give a reliable general rule.
>>
>>Pulling the knob produces a displacement along an axis which in the
>> conventional 3-space view of the world would probably be labeled 'x'. But
>> 'r' is also a displacement, and polar coordinates describe some problem
>> spaces better than xyz does.
>
> Space? But I can guess what is meant.
>
>>In this case, a transformation of the x value to the r value is the obvious
>> one,
>
> Not really. Do you claim it is an obvious thing to do? They are mutually
> perpendicular, aren't they? I wouldn't find it at all obvious to transform
> the axis of a cylinder (for example) into its radius, for a start. That
> doesn't stack up. And what would be the point?

I am not talking about the radius of the cylinder. I am talking about
a displacement on an axis which is just as conveniently called 'r' as
'x'. The combination of a rotation and a displacement is typical of a
polar coordinate problem.

>>and for our purpose the transformation is just r = x.
>>
> Are you sure?

Why would you think I'm not sure?

>>> which on the contrary is a radial
>>> displacement. Where did such a design come into this thread? No-one has
>>> introduced such a shower control here yet, have they?
>>
>>Don't patent applications have drawings and descriptions of operation?
>
> Why do you ask? Some do, some don't. Go and take a look if you're not certain
> which are which.
>
> Patent specifications shouldn't include ambiguities in their specific
> descriptions of any embodiments of the subject invention. Clarity and
> understanding are key. If they include a term like "dual-axis", they should
> make damn sure that it is coherently explained, and if necessary defined too.

I didn't think I was ambiguous at all. But I am beginning to
sympathize with JJ when he sees us talking about QM.

/dps

--
As a colleague once told me about an incoming manager,
"He does very well in a suck-up, kick-down culture."
Bill in Vancouver

On Thu, 5 May 2022, at 11:46:27, Snidely posted:
>On Thursday or thereabouts, Paul Wolff declared ...
>> On Wed, 4 May 2022, at 23:08:03, Snidely posted:
>>>Monday, Paul Wolff murmurred ...
>>>
>>>> Polar co-ordinates don't help.
>>>
>>>Rather, they are only sufficient for plotting the inputs. Two more
>>>axes are require to also plot the outputs (temperature and flow rate).
>>
>> We were discussing the mechanism of a combined water flow and
>>temperature control valve. We weren't plotting performance parameters.
>>>
>>>> Why does Snidely want me to think of
>>>> them? Yes, rotation is measured as an angle. but pulling the knob in/out
>>>> along the axis of rotation isn't 'r',
>>>
>>>I am curious as to how you solve puzzles which involve transformations.
>>
>> Facts, logic and inspiration, same as usual. But "puzzles which
>>involve transformation" is an indefinitely large set (in my
>>non-mathematician's terms, anyway). I can hardly give a reliable
>>general rule.
>>>
>>>Pulling the knob produces a displacement along an axis which in the
>>>conventional 3-space view of the world would probably be labeled 'x'.
>>>But 'r' is also a displacement, and polar coordinates describe some
>>>problem spaces better than xyz does.
>>
>> Space? But I can guess what is meant.
>>
>>>In this case, a transformation of the x value to the r value is the
>>>obvious one,
>>
>> Not really. Do you claim it is an obvious thing to do? They are
>>mutually perpendicular, aren't they? I wouldn't find it at all
>>obvious to transform the axis of a cylinder (for example) into its
>>radius, for a start. That doesn't stack up. And what would be the point?
>
>I am not talking about the radius of the cylinder. I am talking about
>a displacement on an axis which is just as conveniently called 'r' as
>'x'. The combination of a rotation and a displacement is typical of a
>polar coordinate problem.

You seem to be making assumptions all along the road. One of them is
that writing about an undefined "polar co-ordinate problem" somehow
throws light on the actual problem, which was that we disagreed about
your characterising Tony's valve as a dual-axis valve.
>
>>>and for our purpose the transformation is just r = x.
>>>
>> Are you sure?
>
>Why would you think I'm not sure?

Because you didn't make any attempt to demonstrate its truth. Besides,
it's a statement without a proper context, just "our purpose". Whose
purpose? What purpose? See what I mean about clarity and understanding?
>
>>>> which on the contrary is a radial
>>>> displacement. Where did such a design come into this thread? No-one has
>>>> introduced such a shower control here yet, have they?
>>>
>>>Don't patent applications have drawings and descriptions of operation?
>>
>> Why do you ask? Some do, some don't. Go and take a look if you're not
>>certain which are which.
>>
>> Patent specifications shouldn't include ambiguities in their specific
>>descriptions of any embodiments of the subject invention. Clarity and
>>understanding are key. If they include a term like "dual-axis", they
>>should make damn sure that it is coherently explained, and if
>>necessary defined too.
>
>I didn't think I was ambiguous at all. But I am beginning to
>sympathize with JJ when he sees us talking about QM.
>
I'll confess one thing - that my persistence in this discussion is
driven by my professional experience, including coaxing young wannabe
patent attorney trainees into writing better technical descriptions. One
of the mistakes that they make is to assume that their reader can read
their mind. (All right, I exaggerate, but only to emphasize my point.)
It can be a challenge.
--
Paul

* Paul Wolff:

> On Wed, 4 May 2022, at 23:08:03, Snidely posted:
>>Monday, Paul Wolff murmurred ...
>>
>>> Polar co-ordinates don't help.
>>
>>Rather, they are only sufficient for plotting the inputs. Two more
>>axes are require to also plot the outputs (temperature and flow rate).
>
> We were discussing the mechanism of a combined water flow and
> temperature control valve. We weren't plotting performance parameters.
>>
>>> Why does Snidely want me to think of
>>> them? Yes, rotation is measured as an angle. but pulling the knob in/out
>>> along the axis of rotation isn't 'r',
>>
>>I am curious as to how you solve puzzles which involve transformations.
>
> Facts, logic and inspiration, same as usual. But "puzzles which involve
> transformation" is an indefinitely large set (in my non-mathematician's
> terms, anyway). I can hardly give a reliable general rule.
>>
>>Pulling the knob produces a displacement along an axis which in the
>>conventional 3-space view of the world would probably be labeled 'x'.
>>But 'r' is also a displacement, and polar coordinates describe some
>>problem spaces better than xyz does.
>
> Space? But I can guess what is meant.
>
>>In this case, a transformation of the x value to the r value is the
>>obvious one,
>
> Not really. Do you claim it is an obvious thing to do? They are mutually
> perpendicular, aren't they? I wouldn't find it at all obvious to
> transform the axis of a cylinder (for example) into its radius, for a
> start. That doesn't stack up. And what would be the point?

There seems to still be a very fundamental misunderstanding.

The graph/diagram, whether x-y-diagram or polar, plots two measurements,
because the system has two independent settings. The layout of the graph
doesn't need to correspond to the physical layout of the controls in any
way. It's a special case that the controls even have a physical layout.
Another graph could plot temperature and velocity, and you'd have no
physical layout for those two in the real world. But in the end, it
doesn't matter, because we're only representing pairs of numbers.

In the case of a separate hot/cold valve layout of my sink, my axes
would be "cold valve: 0 to 90 degrees" and "hot valve: 0 to 90 degrees".

In the case of Tony's shower control, the two axes might be: "flow
control: 0 to 20 mm" and "temperature control: -45 to +45 degrees".

Now since one of these is linear and one is an angle, it might feel
natural to use polar coordinates, so that the angle is represented by an
angle and the linear motion by a distance (and then you'd have the
option of using the angle as is or multiply by four to use the whole
area.) In my first example, where it's two angles, there is no such
option, so I'd sure stay with an x-y graph.

--
We say, 'If any lady or gentleman shall buy this article _____ shall
have it for five dollars.' The blank may be filled with he, she, it,
or they; or in any other manner; and yet the form of the expression
will be too vulgar to be uttered. -- Wkly Jrnl of Commerce (1839)

In message <mn.238b7e65c0d79e1a.127094@snitoo> Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thus spake Lewis:
>> In message <mn.1cac7e650921dd06.127094@snitoo> Snidely
>> <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> on 5/2/2022, Lewis supposed :
>>>> In message <mn.f3957e641173dc3f.127094@snitoo> Snidely
>>>> <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Lewis speculated:
>>>>>> In message <113p6hln14sgi2blfiddb2ajcmt0jvgrk9@4ax.com> Tony Cooper
>>>>>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 17:59:52 -0700, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sometimes that is a reason, but many many times it is the flowrate into
>>>>>>>> the shower that is the issue. The tub does not include pumps to
>>>>>>>> increase the pressure at the drain.
>>>>>>> I just can't conceive of the tub filling from the shower with the
>>>>>>> drain open. I've never seen anything close to that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Agreed. It seems very very odd to me. The drain on a tub is at least
>>>>>> twice the size of the pipe feeding in water.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the water from the shower backs-up in the tub, something is very wrong
>>>>>> and needs to be fixed.
>>>>
>>>>> So you guys really think I can't recognize a stopped-up drain? Sheesh.
>>>>
>>>> It's hard to say, since what you are describing is something I have
>>>> never seen WITHOUT a stopped drain.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, stopped or clogged drains are not always obvious.
>>>>
>>>>> At home, my ideal shower rate is at about 1 gpm. The maximum flow from
>>>>> the spout is about 4 gpm, and in 30 seconds the water will reach the
>>>>> far end of the tub and a depth of 1 inch at the drain end. It will
>>>>> take 2 1/2 minutes to drain, which is no record but definitely not
>>>>> plugged and comparable to other tubs I've experienced.
>>>>
>>>> This does not match any shower andrub u have ever been in. It does not
>>>> take 2.5 minutes to drain 1 gallon of water out of any drain in the
>>>> hose, and most certainly not the large drina on the tub. The bathroom
>>>> sink has the smallest drain pipe, and it will drain a gallon of water on
>>>> just a bit under 1 minute. It will take a bit over 1 minute to fill a
>>>> gallon of water.
>>
>>> This doesn't match my experience. Tubs often do not have a much bigger
>>> drain than sinks, and you aren't accounting for hydrostatic pressure.
>>> One gallon in my bathroom sink is at least 8 inches deep at the drain,
>>> and that head makes a difference. And I've done the homework: I took
>>> a plastic cup (Peets, not Starbucks) and a plastic take-out tray,
>>> drilled the same size hole (0.24in) in each, filled them with water.
>>> The cup drained in 30s, the tray took that long *and* an additional 40s
>>> to drain.
>>
>> A bathtub is not a flat tray with a hole drilled in it.

> No, it has a 1:60 slope, doesn't it.

>> But regardless
>> of your tests, I have still never ever stood ankle deep in a tub while
>> taking a shower unless the stopper was engaged or there was a plug in
>> the bathtub drain. Never. Not once.

> That's fine, but you're still handwaving.

No, there is no handwaving. You stated something as being "common" that
I have never seen. That my wife has never seen. That no one in my gaming
group on Tuesday night has ever seen. Or my gaming group on Monday night
(entirely different group) or anyone on several slacks.

> No doubt your tub works better than mine and 50 others that I've seen.
> But without numbers, there is no way to do a meaningful comparison.

In over 50 years of baths I have been in many houses, in many hotels, in
several countries, certainly well more than 50. I have still never seen
what you claim is common.

--
We all need help with our feelings. Otherwise, we bottle them up, and
before you know it powerful laxatives are involved.

Lewis was thinking very hard :
> In message <mn.238b7e65c0d79e1a.127094@snitoo> Snidely
> <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Thus spake Lewis:
>>> In message <mn.1cac7e650921dd06.127094@snitoo> Snidely
>>> <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> on 5/2/2022, Lewis supposed :
>>>>> In message <mn.f3957e641173dc3f.127094@snitoo> Snidely
>>>>> <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Lewis speculated:
>>>>>>> In message <113p6hln14sgi2blfiddb2ajcmt0jvgrk9@4ax.com> Tony Cooper
>>>>>>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 17:59:52 -0700, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sometimes that is a reason, but many many times it is the flowrate
>>>>>>>>> into the shower that is the issue. The tub does not include pumps
>>>>>>>>> to increase the pressure at the drain.
>>>>>>>> I just can't conceive of the tub filling from the shower with the
>>>>>>>> drain open. I've never seen anything close to that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Agreed. It seems very very odd to me. The drain on a tub is at least
>>>>>>> twice the size of the pipe feeding in water.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If the water from the shower backs-up in the tub, something is very
>>>>>>> wrong and needs to be fixed.
>>>>>
>>>>>> So you guys really think I can't recognize a stopped-up drain? Sheesh.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's hard to say, since what you are describing is something I have
>>>>> never seen WITHOUT a stopped drain.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, stopped or clogged drains are not always obvious.
>>>>>
>>>>>> At home, my ideal shower rate is at about 1 gpm. The maximum flow from
>>>>>> the spout is about 4 gpm, and in 30 seconds the water will reach the
>>>>>> far end of the tub and a depth of 1 inch at the drain end. It will
>>>>>> take 2 1/2 minutes to drain, which is no record but definitely not
>>>>>> plugged and comparable to other tubs I've experienced.
>>>>>
>>>>> This does not match any shower andrub u have ever been in. It does not
>>>>> take 2.5 minutes to drain 1 gallon of water out of any drain in the
>>>>> hose, and most certainly not the large drina on the tub. The bathroom
>>>>> sink has the smallest drain pipe, and it will drain a gallon of water on
>>>>> just a bit under 1 minute. It will take a bit over 1 minute to fill a
>>>>> gallon of water.
>>>
>>>> This doesn't match my experience. Tubs often do not have a much bigger
>>>> drain than sinks, and you aren't accounting for hydrostatic pressure.
>>>> One gallon in my bathroom sink is at least 8 inches deep at the drain,
>>>> and that head makes a difference. And I've done the homework: I took
>>>> a plastic cup (Peets, not Starbucks) and a plastic take-out tray,
>>>> drilled the same size hole (0.24in) in each, filled them with water.
>>>> The cup drained in 30s, the tray took that long *and* an additional 40s
>>>> to drain.
>>>
>>> A bathtub is not a flat tray with a hole drilled in it.
>
>> No, it has a 1:60 slope, doesn't it.
>
>>> But regardless
>>> of your tests, I have still never ever stood ankle deep in a tub while
>>> taking a shower unless the stopper was engaged or there was a plug in
>>> the bathtub drain. Never. Not once.
>
>> That's fine, but you're still handwaving.
>
> No, there is no handwaving. You stated something as being "common" that
> I have never seen. That my wife has never seen. That no one in my gaming
> group on Tuesday night has ever seen. Or my gaming group on Monday night
> (entirely different group) or anyone on several slacks.
>
>> No doubt your tub works better than mine and 50 others that I've seen.
>> But without numbers, there is no way to do a meaningful comparison.
>
> In over 50 years of baths I have been in many houses, in many hotels, in
> several countries, certainly well more than 50. I have still never seen
> what you claim is common.

You are blessed.

/dps

--
Let's celebrate Macaronesia

On 2022-05-05 21:59, Snidely wrote:
> Lewis was thinking very hard :
>> In message <mn.238b7e65c0d79e1a.127094@snitoo> Snidely
>> <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Thus spake Lewis:
>>>> In message <mn.1cac7e650921dd06.127094@snitoo> Snidely
>>>> <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> on 5/2/2022, Lewis supposed :
>>>>>> In message <mn.f3957e641173dc3f.127094@snitoo> Snidely
>>>>>> <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Lewis speculated:
>>>>>>>> In message <113p6hln14sgi2blfiddb2ajcmt0jvgrk9@4ax.com> Tony
>>>>>>>> Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 17:59:52 -0700, Snidely
>>>>>>>>> <snidely.too@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sometimes that is a reason, but many many times it is the
>>>>>>>>>> flowrate into  the shower that is the issue.  The tub does not
>>>>>>>>>> include pumps to  increase the pressure at the drain.
>>>>>>>>> I just can't conceive of the tub filling from the shower with the
>>>>>>>>> drain open.  I've never seen anything close to that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Agreed. It seems very very odd to me. The drain on a tub is at
>>>>>>>> least
>>>>>>>> twice the size of the pipe feeding in water.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If the water from the shower backs-up in the tub, something is
>>>>>>>> very wrong and needs to be fixed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So you guys really think I can't recognize a stopped-up drain?
>>>>>>> Sheesh.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's hard to say, since what you are describing is something I have
>>>>>> never seen WITHOUT a stopped drain.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course, stopped or clogged drains are not always obvious.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At home, my ideal shower rate is at about 1 gpm.  The maximum
>>>>>>> flow from the spout is about 4 gpm, and in 30 seconds the water
>>>>>>> will reach the far end of the tub and a depth of 1 inch at the
>>>>>>> drain end.  It will take 2 1/2 minutes to drain, which is no
>>>>>>> record but definitely not plugged and comparable to other tubs
>>>>>>> I've experienced.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This does not match any shower andrub u have ever been in. It does
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> take 2.5 minutes to drain 1 gallon of water out of any drain in the
>>>>>> hose, and most certainly not the large drina on the tub. The bathroom
>>>>>> sink has the smallest drain pipe, and it will drain a gallon of
>>>>>> water on
>>>>>> just a bit under 1 minute. It will take a bit over 1 minute to fill a
>>>>>> gallon of water.
>>>>
>>>>> This doesn't match my experience.  Tubs often do not have a much
>>>>> bigger drain than sinks, and you aren't accounting for hydrostatic
>>>>> pressure. One gallon in my bathroom sink is at least 8 inches deep
>>>>> at the drain, and that head makes a difference.  And I've done the
>>>>> homework:  I took a plastic cup (Peets, not Starbucks) and a
>>>>> plastic take-out tray, drilled the same size hole (0.24in) in each,
>>>>> filled them with water. The cup drained in 30s, the tray took that
>>>>> long *and* an additional 40s to drain.
>>>>
>>>> A bathtub is not a flat tray with a hole drilled in it.
>>
>>> No, it has a 1:60 slope, doesn't it.
>>
>>>> But regardless
>>>> of your tests, I have still never ever stood ankle deep in a tub while
>>>> taking a shower unless the stopper was engaged or there was a plug in
>>>> the bathtub drain. Never. Not once.
>>
>>> That's fine, but you're still handwaving.
>>
>> No, there is no handwaving. You stated something as being "common" that
>> I have never seen. That my wife has never seen. That no one in my gaming
>> group on Tuesday night has ever seen. Or my gaming group on Monday night
>> (entirely different group) or anyone on several slacks.
>>
>>> No doubt your tub works better than mine and 50 others that I've seen.
>>> But without numbers, there is no way to do a meaningful comparison.
>>
>> In over 50 years of baths I have been in many houses, in many hotels, in
>> several countries, certainly well more than 50. I have still never seen
>> what you claim is common.
>
> You are blessed.

So far, you seem to be the only one who overflows a tub while having a
shower, vs. quite a few AuE members who have been having showers in tubs
for many years in many different tubs, without having the water even
reach their ankles.

Quite a few of these people have also told you of others they have
asked, with the same result.

With that in mind, would you not have even once thought "I am cursed",
instead of "You are blessed."?

I don't know if anyone ever asked you if you have had (or even came
close to having) an overflow in more than one tub shower. For all we
know, you are the owner of a defective or partially clogged tub drain,
and have never used a different tub shower.

On Thursday or thereabouts, lar3ryca declared ...
> On 2022-05-05 21:59, Snidely wrote:
>> Lewis was thinking very hard :
>>> In message <mn.238b7e65c0d79e1a.127094@snitoo> Snidely
>>> <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Thus spake Lewis:
>>>>> In message <mn.1cac7e650921dd06.127094@snitoo> Snidely
>>>>> <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> on 5/2/2022, Lewis supposed :
>>>>>>> In message <mn.f3957e641173dc3f.127094@snitoo> Snidely
>>>>>>> <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Lewis speculated:
>>>>>>>>> In message <113p6hln14sgi2blfiddb2ajcmt0jvgrk9@4ax.com> Tony Cooper
>>>>>>>>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 17:59:52 -0700, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sometimes that is a reason, but many many times it is the flowrate
>>>>>>>>>>> into  the shower that is the issue.  The tub does not include
>>>>>>>>>>> pumps to  increase the pressure at the drain.
>>>>>>>>>> I just can't conceive of the tub filling from the shower with the
>>>>>>>>>> drain open.  I've never seen anything close to that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Agreed. It seems very very odd to me. The drain on a tub is at least
>>>>>>>>> twice the size of the pipe feeding in water.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If the water from the shower backs-up in the tub, something is very
>>>>>>>>> wrong and needs to be fixed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So you guys really think I can't recognize a stopped-up drain?
>>>>>>>> Sheesh.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's hard to say, since what you are describing is something I have
>>>>>>> never seen WITHOUT a stopped drain.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course, stopped or clogged drains are not always obvious.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At home, my ideal shower rate is at about 1 gpm.  The maximum flow
>>>>>>>> from the spout is about 4 gpm, and in 30 seconds the water will reach
>>>>>>>> the far end of the tub and a depth of 1 inch at the drain end.  It
>>>>>>>> will take 2 1/2 minutes to drain, which is no record but definitely
>>>>>>>> not plugged and comparable to other tubs I've experienced.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This does not match any shower andrub u have ever been in. It does not
>>>>>>> take 2.5 minutes to drain 1 gallon of water out of any drain in the
>>>>>>> hose, and most certainly not the large drina on the tub. The bathroom
>>>>>>> sink has the smallest drain pipe, and it will drain a gallon of water
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> just a bit under 1 minute. It will take a bit over 1 minute to fill a
>>>>>>> gallon of water.
>>>>>
>>>>>> This doesn't match my experience.  Tubs often do not have a much bigger
>>>>>> drain than sinks, and you aren't accounting for hydrostatic pressure.
>>>>>> One gallon in my bathroom sink is at least 8 inches deep at the drain,
>>>>>> and that head makes a difference.  And I've done the homework:  I took
>>>>>> a plastic cup (Peets, not Starbucks) and a plastic take-out tray,
>>>>>> drilled the same size hole (0.24in) in each, filled them with water.
>>>>>> The cup drained in 30s, the tray took that long *and* an additional 40s
>>>>>> to drain.
>>>>>
>>>>> A bathtub is not a flat tray with a hole drilled in it.
>>>
>>>> No, it has a 1:60 slope, doesn't it.
>>>
>>>>> But regardless
>>>>> of your tests, I have still never ever stood ankle deep in a tub while
>>>>> taking a shower unless the stopper was engaged or there was a plug in
>>>>> the bathtub drain. Never. Not once.
>>>
>>>> That's fine, but you're still handwaving.
>>>
>>> No, there is no handwaving. You stated something as being "common" that
>>> I have never seen. That my wife has never seen. That no one in my gaming
>>> group on Tuesday night has ever seen. Or my gaming group on Monday night
>>> (entirely different group) or anyone on several slacks.
>>>
>>>> No doubt your tub works better than mine and 50 others that I've seen.
>>>> But without numbers, there is no way to do a meaningful comparison.
>>>
>>> In over 50 years of baths I have been in many houses, in many hotels, in
>>> several countries, certainly well more than 50. I have still never seen
>>> what you claim is common.
>>
>> You are blessed.
>
> So far, you seem to be the only one who overflows a tub while having a
> shower, vs. quite a few AuE members who have been having showers in tubs for
> many years in many different tubs, without having the water even reach their
> ankles.
>
> Quite a few of these people have also told you of others they have asked,
> with the same result.
>
> With that in mind, would you not have even once thought "I am cursed",
> instead of "You are blessed."?
>
> I don't know if anyone ever asked you if you have had (or even came close to
> having) an overflow in more than one tub shower. For all we know, you are the
> owner of a defective or partially clogged tub drain, and have never used a
> different tub shower.

I have cleaned shower drains more than once. I have used many tubs,
though far fewer than Lewis, it seems.

The places where I most often have problems are reputable middle market
hotels, and there seems to be a correlation with a particular type of
shower valve.

So when I post numbers, there is no one with enough chutzpah to say ...
"oh, but those numbers are way off what I see, which is/are/have been
[fill in the blank].

Sometimes it appears that people would rather be smug than informative.

And yes, I understood Lewis the /first/ time he said, "I have never
seen that".

/dps

--
Yes, I have had a cucumber soda. Why do you ask?

Snidely presented the following explanation :

>> So far, you seem to be the only one who overflows a tub while having a
>> shower, vs. quite a few AuE members who have been having showers in tubs
>> for many years in many different tubs, without having the water even reach
>> their ankles.

For those reading carefully, I have never said the tub overflows. I
have said that the water can reach the far end of the tub, so perhaps
1" depth. This is clearly a result of water being added to the tub
faster than it is being removed.

The part worse than the splashing is that this situation involves a
flow rate into the tub (via the shower head) much greater than needed
for a comfortable shower, and wastes water.

Any ambitious person is welcome to tell me how fast water goes into
their shower/tub, or how fast it flows out.

/dps

--
"I am not given to exaggeration, and when I say a thing I mean it"
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain

On Thu, 5 May 2022 22:21:29 +0100
Paul Wolff <bounceme@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:

> On Thu, 5 May 2022, at 11:46:27, Snidely posted:
> >On Thursday or thereabouts, Paul Wolff declared ...
> >> On Wed, 4 May 2022, at 23:08:03, Snidely posted:

[Axes]

> I'll confess one thing - that my persistence in this discussion is
> driven by my professional experience, including coaxing young wannabe

<Like>--------------------------------------------^

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

In message <t4tq26$avu$1@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> On 04/05/22 21:50, CDB wrote:
>> On 5/3/2022 2:42 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:

>>> Alas, with the absence of Deja Vu, providing excerpts from old
>>> threads is too difficult to attempt.
>>
>>> I would not want to even if I could. Rey, as many here know, spent
>>> some time as a guest of the government in federal prison. PTD
>>> made a comment about dropping-the-soap, and Rey responded rather
>>> forcefully. He made some unkind comments that, if replicated by
>>> one of our posters here, would wear out his * key.
>>
>>> I would not want to provide the excerpts because I feel that the
>>> nature of the remarks made by Rey crossed a line that I do not feel
>>> should be crossed.
>>
>> You must be the judge of that, then; it seems to me that Peter's
>> suggestion of anal rape, no doubt made in an aggressively hostile way
>> to someone who had been imprisoned, crossed a line or two as well.

> It was obvious to everyone here at the time that Rey was sensitive about
> the topic of prison, because he felt that there had been a miscarriage
> of justice. Thus, anyone with a motivation to stick a knife in his gut
> only had to mention his prison term.

Which was amusing since Rey was otherwise the first to attack anyone and
anything on every possible front. He's the second-fastest person I added
to the perma-bozo file, after Petey, and I still saw way too much of his
shit.

--
Esa mujer es un ángel
5 Boss. Ass. Bitch.

In message <t4r4td$1kf$1@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> On 02/05/22 19:41, Paul Wolff wrote:

>> There is a communication failure here. I understand the sort of
>> 'axis' that applies to the manually adjustable shower controls that
>> we are writing about to be an imaginary line in the control valve
>> structure about which, or along which, a part moves.
>>
>> Everything I've read here tells me that there are two motions in the
>> control we're discussing. One is rotary and one is longitudinal. It
>> seems to me that they share a common axis. Snidely says that they
>> operate on two co-linear axes. To my mind, there is no difference:
>> the axis-defining line is one and the same. Or perhaps he thinks
>> co-linear means intersecting? That works if my final para below is
>> what he's thinking about.

> The concept of "axis" is irrelevant except when one is talking about
> rotation about an axis. Linear motion does not have an axis.

Lots of linear motion has an axis. A knob is the most obvious example,
you turn it either right or left and that movement is on an axis (the
center of the knob). A solenoid or a piston is only capable of linear
motion, but attached to a piston-rod or a cog, that motion is then centered
n an axis (the center of the cog/piston.

We are talking the English language here, not jargon.

> As a preliminary, let's take a step back and look at the mixer tap I
> have in my kitchen:

> <https://www.northernrv.com.au/product/standard-kitchen-mixer-tap-200mm-spout/>

> Here the temperature is controlled by rotating the lever around a
> vertical axis, and the flow rate is controlled by moving the lever up
> and down. That, at least, is the layman's description, but if we want to
> be technically precise that up-and-down is really a circular motion:
> rotation about a horizontal axis.

Ah, 'technically' is the short way of saying "we;ve left the topic of language
behind. A linear motion (I can simply push the level/know/etc forward of back
(or left or right) so I would refer to it as a linear motion since it can only
move in the two directions, as along a line.

In speech, as in physics, I only care about circular motion when talking about
things like the speed of rotation, the centripetal force generated, or the
problems of gravity. If I push a thing or pull a thing, that's a one
dimensional movement, so a line.

When I was in (the) hospital the shower was as has been described in this
thread, a single handle that rotated from off, to on cold, through a range of
mixed cold and hot to on hot to off. A single line of options, even though they
were on a circle.

If I needed to keep that handle spinning, then I'd be concerned about circular
motion.

> So far, I think we're all in agreement. But the shower control under
> discussion is different. With an in-and-out knob, we have one rotational
> movement (for temperature) and one *linear* motion (for flow rate).
> There is only one axis because only one of the two motions is a
> rotation. The second motion has nothing to do with movement around an
> axis, because it is not a rotation.

There are a variety of shower controls. While the one I encountered in the
hospital is rare to me, it is certainly not unknown. There is no flow control
at all, other than changing the setting on the shower head (twisting the
plastic front) or in the first and last cm of movement when the water is all
cold or all hot.

Actually, chances are good that the shower in question only had ONE off
position.

--
YOU SAY THAT TO ME? YOU STAND THERE IN YOUR PRETTY DRESS AND SAY THAT
TO ME? YOU? YOU PRATTLE ON ABOUT CHANGING THE WORLD? COULD YOU FIND THE
COURAGE TO ACCEPT IT? TO KNOW WHAT MUST BE DONE AND DO IT, WHATEVER THE
COST? IS THERE ONE HUMAN BEING ANYWHERE WHO KNOWS WHAT DUTY MEANS?

On 5/5/2022 12:26 PM, Madhu wrote:
> * CDB <t50cl2$1v0e$1 @gioia.aioe.org>:
>> Lewis wrote:

>>> Anyway, it showed a free standing bird feeder with baffles above
>>> an below and possible a sign that said "Squirrel Proof Bird
>>> Feeder"

>>> Then it showed a squirrel in a top hat and cape, then a cloud of
>>> smoke with a BAMF! or similar, and then the squirrel eating all
>>> the seeds out of the bird feeder.

>> They are talented critters, but not a bit kind to each other. Each
>> against all.

> The ones here taunt the cats. they look down on the cat from tree
> trunks and yap away loudly forever, trashing their tails, and
> ocassionally nip down and climb back up, while the cats can only
> look up angrily swishing *their* tails slowly waiting for a chance
> to attack, until they get tired and go away

There is a neighbour's cat who wants to hang around while I feed my
pals. I shout abuse at it to intimidate it into leaving. I don't blame
the cat; I only want it to go away. It's the humans who let it out to
kill for pleasure who are to blame.

> But the squirrels aren't always on their guard, and on many days the
> cats make a meal out of them when they least expect it.

My squirrels are too big and tough to be easy prey for a pampered
housepet, but I think the miserable bastard got a chipmunk once.

--
Poor Sweetchips hasn't been by for a long time.

On 5/6/2022 1:39 AM, lar3ryca wrote:
> Snidely wrote:
>> Lewis was thinking very hard:
>>> Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Lewis:
>>>>> Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Lewis supposed:
>>>>>>> Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Lewis speculated:
>>>>>>>>> Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>> Sometimes that is a reason, but many many times
>>>>>>>>>>> it is the flowrate into the shower that is the
>>>>>>>>>>> issue. The tub does not include pumps to
>>>>>>>>>>> increase the pressure at the drain.
>>>>>>>>>> I just can't conceive of the tub filling from the
>>>>>>>>>> shower with the drain open. I've never seen
>>>>>>>>>> anything close to that.

>>>>>>>>> Agreed. It seems very very odd to me. The drain on a
>>>>>>>>> tub is at least twice the size of the pipe feeding in
>>>>>>>>> water.

>>>>>>>>> If the water from the shower backs-up in the tub,
>>>>>>>>> something is very wrong and needs to be fixed.

>>>>>>>> So you guys really think I can't recognize a stopped-up
>>>>>>>> drain? Sheesh.

>>>>>>> It's hard to say, since what you are describing is
>>>>>>> something I have never seen WITHOUT a stopped drain.

>>>>>>> Of course, stopped or clogged drains are not always
>>>>>>> obvious.

>>>>>>>> At home, my ideal shower rate is at about 1 gpm. The
>>>>>>>> maximum flow from the spout is about 4 gpm, and in 30
>>>>>>>> seconds the water will reach the far end of the tub and
>>>>>>>> a depth of 1 inch at the drain end. It will take 2 1/2
>>>>>>>> minutes to drain, which is no record but definitely not
>>>>>>>> plugged and comparable to other tubs I've experienced.

>>>>>>> This does not match any shower andrub u have ever been
>>>>>>> in. It does not take 2.5 minutes to drain 1 gallon of
>>>>>>> water out of any drain in the hose, and most certainly
>>>>>>> not the large drina on the tub. The bathroom sink has the
>>>>>>> smallest drain pipe, and it will drain a gallon of water
>>>>>>> on just a bit under 1 minute. It will take a bit over 1
>>>>>>> minute to fill a gallon of water.

>>>>>> This doesn't match my experience. Tubs often do not have a
>>>>>> much bigger drain than sinks, and you aren't accounting for
>>>>>> hydrostatic pressure. One gallon in my bathroom sink is at
>>>>>> least 8 inches deep at the drain, and that head makes a
>>>>>> difference. And I've done the homework: I took a plastic
>>>>>> cup (Peets, not Starbucks) and a plastic take-out tray,
>>>>>> drilled the same size hole (0.24in) in each, filled them
>>>>>> with water. The cup drained in 30s, the tray took that long
>>>>>> *and* an additional 40s to drain.

>>>>> A bathtub is not a flat tray with a hole drilled in it.

>>>> No, it has a 1:60 slope, doesn't it.

>>>>> But regardless of your tests, I have still never ever stood
>>>>> ankle deep in a tub while taking a shower unless the stopper
>>>>> was engaged or there was a plug in the bathtub drain. Never.
>>>>> Not once.

>>>> That's fine, but you're still handwaving.

>>> No, there is no handwaving. You stated something as being
>>> "common" that I have never seen. That my wife has never seen.
>>> That no one in my gaming group on Tuesday night has ever seen. Or
>>> my gaming group on Monday night (entirely different group) or
>>> anyone on several slacks.

>>>> No doubt your tub works better than mine and 50 others that
>>>> I've seen. But without numbers, there is no way to do a
>>>> meaningful comparison.

>>> In over 50 years of baths I have been in many houses, in many
>>> hotels, in several countries, certainly well more than 50. I have
>>> still never seen what you claim is common.

>> You are blessed.

> So far, you seem to be the only one who overflows a tub while having
> a shower, vs. quite a few AuE members who have been having showers in
> tubs for many years in many different tubs, without having the water
> even reach their ankles.

> Quite a few of these people have also told you of others they have
> asked, with the same result.

> With that in mind, would you not have even once thought "I am
> cursed", instead of "You are blessed."?

> I don't know if anyone ever asked you if you have had (or even came
> close to having) an overflow in more than one tub shower. For all we
> know, you are the owner of a defective or partially clogged tub
> drain, and have never used a different tub shower.

When I take a soaking-bath, I have to put saran-wrap over the outflow to
get the water high enough. In a shower, the water often covers my toes,
but that is because I have a kind of strainer in the drain which will
become clogged with the hair and skindreck it is keeping out of the system.

On 2022-05-06, Lewis wrote:

> In message <t4r4td$1kf$1@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>> On 02/05/22 19:41, Paul Wolff wrote:
>
>>> There is a communication failure here. I understand the sort of
>>> 'axis' that applies to the manually adjustable shower controls that
>>> we are writing about to be an imaginary line in the control valve
>>> structure about which, or along which, a part moves.
>>>
>>> Everything I've read here tells me that there are two motions in the
>>> control we're discussing. One is rotary and one is longitudinal. It
>>> seems to me that they share a common axis. Snidely says that they
>>> operate on two co-linear axes. To my mind, there is no difference:
>>> the axis-defining line is one and the same. Or perhaps he thinks
>>> co-linear means intersecting? That works if my final para below is
>>> what he's thinking about.
>
>> The concept of "axis" is irrelevant except when one is talking about
>> rotation about an axis. Linear motion does not have an axis.
>
> Lots of linear motion has an axis. A knob is the most obvious example,
> you turn it either right or left and that movement is on an axis (the
> center of the knob). A solenoid or a piston is only capable of linear
> motion, but attached to a piston-rod or a cog, that motion is then centered
> n an axis (the center of the cog/piston.
>
> We are talking the English language here, not jargon.

I disagree: "axis", "piston", "solenoid", "cog" are all technical
terms. They're in most people's passive vocabularly but active only
for technical discussion.

>> As a preliminary, let's take a step back and look at the mixer tap I
>> have in my kitchen:
>
>> <https://www.northernrv.com.au/product/standard-kitchen-mixer-tap-200mm-spout/>
>
>> Here the temperature is controlled by rotating the lever around a
>> vertical axis, and the flow rate is controlled by moving the lever up
>> and down. That, at least, is the layman's description, but if we want to
>> be technically precise that up-and-down is really a circular motion:
>> rotation about a horizontal axis.
>
> Ah, 'technically' is the short way of saying "we;ve left the topic of language
> behind. A linear motion (I can simply push the level/know/etc forward of back
> (or left or right) so I would refer to it as a linear motion since it can only
> move in the two directions, as along a line.
>
> In speech, as in physics, I only care about circular motion when talking about
> things like the speed of rotation, the centripetal force generated, or the
> problems of gravity. If I push a thing or pull a thing, that's a one
> dimensional movement, so a line.
>
> When I was in (the) hospital the shower was as has been described in this
> thread, a single handle that rotated from off, to on cold, through a range of
> mixed cold and hot to on hot to off. A single line of options, even though they
> were on a circle.
>
> If I needed to keep that handle spinning, then I'd be concerned about circular
> motion.
>
>> So far, I think we're all in agreement. But the shower control under
>> discussion is different. With an in-and-out knob, we have one rotational
>> movement (for temperature) and one *linear* motion (for flow rate).
>> There is only one axis because only one of the two motions is a
>> rotation. The second motion has nothing to do with movement around an
>> axis, because it is not a rotation.
>
> There are a variety of shower controls. While the one I encountered in the
> hospital is rare to me, it is certainly not unknown. There is no flow control
> at all, other than changing the setting on the shower head (twisting the
> plastic front) or in the first and last cm of movement when the water is all
> cold or all hot.
>
> Actually, chances are good that the shower in question only had ONE off
> position.
>

--
Hear my laughter in your head
It's a pity, it's a shame, nothing's been said

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 10:10:20 AM UTC-4, CDB wrote:
> On 5/5/2022 12:26 PM, Madhu wrote:

> There is a neighbour's cat who wants to hang around while I feed my
> pals. I shout abuse at it to intimidate it into leaving. I don't blame
> the cat; I only want it to go away. It's the humans who let it out to
> kill for pleasure who are to blame.
>
> > But the squirrels aren't always on their guard, and on many days the
> > cats make a meal out of them when they least expect it.
>
> My squirrels are too big and tough to be easy prey for a pampered
> housepet, but I think the miserable bastard got a chipmunk once.

Chicago two-flats and three-flats [number of apartments stacked
in a building] have wooden back porches that are walled but have
openings beneath the roof for, I suppose, ventilation. One time a
small bird ("sparrow") got in and was terrifiedly trying to get out,
and my normally very placid cat, who had had no practical experience
in stalking or hunting, grabbed the bird and wolfed it down in a trice.
I was saddened but proud.
> --
> Poor Sweetchips hasn't been by for a long time.

On 2022-05-06 00:46, Snidely wrote:
> Snidely presented the following explanation :
>
>>> So far, you seem to be the only one who overflows a tub while having
>>> a shower, vs. quite a few AuE members who have been having showers in
>>> tubs for many years in many different tubs, without having the water
>>> even reach their ankles.
>
> For those reading carefully, I have never said the tub overflows.  I
> have said that the water can reach the far end of the tub, so perhaps 1"
> depth.  This is clearly a result of water being added to the tub faster
> than it is being removed.

Snidely: Apr 29, 2022, 2:49:36 AM

"I happen to not want to fill the tub in 5 minutes while showering."

> The part worse than the splashing is that this situation involves a flow
> rate into the tub (via the shower head) much greater than needed for a
> comfortable shower, and wastes water.

Nice PTD move. Divert from filling the tub in 5 minutes, to splashing,
more water then needed, and wasting water.

> Any ambitious person is welcome to tell me how fast water goes into
> their shower/tub, or how fast it flows out.

Snidely: Apr 30, 2022, 4:18:02 PM

"Remember that the size of the pipe is only part of the equation: the
water is fed into the shower head under considerable pressure, provided
either by an elevated system source or by pumps or by both, and it
flows out of the tub under the pressure of the depth of the water in
the tub."

The size of the drain is also only part of the equation. There is, as
you say, the pressure (varies with the depth of the water), and with the
'drop' of the drain. The longer the drop, the faster the flow.

I'm not going to do the math for you, and I no longer have a tub, but I
invite you to google with search terms:
"flow in gallons per minute" "bathtub drain"

One comment in
https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r30477062-Plumbing-Tub-drain-speed-how-fast-should-it-be

says:
"Your maximum possible drain rate will be given by the area of the
drain, area of the tub and height of the water above the drain.

Considering an equivalent diameter of the actual opening of the drain of
1" you will get a discharge rate of 19gal/min (2.5 cuft/min) for a water
level of 12".

For a tub of 6'x2.5' you have an area of 15sqft - so you can expect a
level decrease rate of 2"/min as a maximum."

Note that most bathtub drains are 1.5" inside diameter.

So your characterization of 'filling the tub in 5 minutes' is SO far off
base as to be laughable.

lar3ryca submitted this gripping article, maybe on Friday:
> On 2022-05-06 00:46, Snidely wrote:
>> Snidely presented the following explanation :
>>
>>>> So far, you seem to be the only one who overflows a tub while having a
>>>> shower, vs. quite a few AuE members who have been having showers in tubs
>>>> for many years in many different tubs, without having the water even
>>>> reach their ankles.
>>
>> For those reading carefully, I have never said the tub overflows.  I have
>> said that the water can reach the far end of the tub, so perhaps 1" depth. 
>> This is clearly a result of water being added to the tub faster than it is
>> being removed.
>
> Snidely: Apr 29, 2022, 2:49:36 AM
>
> "I happen to not want to fill the tub in 5 minutes while showering."
>
>> The part worse than the splashing is that this situation involves a flow
>> rate into the tub (via the shower head) much greater than needed for a
>> comfortable shower, and wastes water.
>
> Nice PTD move. Divert from filling the tub in 5 minutes, to splashing, more
> water then needed, and wasting water.
>
>> Any ambitious person is welcome to tell me how fast water goes into their
>> shower/tub, or how fast it flows out.
>
> Snidely: Apr 30, 2022, 4:18:02 PM
>
> "Remember that the size of the pipe is only part of the equation: the
> water is fed into the shower head under considerable pressure, provided
> either by an elevated system source or by pumps or by both, and it
> flows out of the tub under the pressure of the depth of the water in
> the tub."
>
> The size of the drain is also only part of the equation. There is, as you
> say, the pressure (varies with the depth of the water), and with the 'drop'
> of the drain. The longer the drop, the faster the flow.
>
> I'm not going to do the math for you, and I no longer have a tub, but I
> invite you to google with search terms:
> "flow in gallons per minute" "bathtub drain"
>
> One comment in
> https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r30477062-Plumbing-Tub-drain-speed-how-fast-should-it-be
>
> says:
> "Your maximum possible drain rate will be given by the area of the drain,
> area of the tub and height of the water above the drain.
>
> Considering an equivalent diameter of the actual opening of the drain of 1"
> you will get a discharge rate of 19gal/min (2.5 cuft/min) for a water level
> of 12".
>
> For a tub of 6'x2.5' you have an area of 15sqft - so you can expect a level
> decrease rate of 2"/min as a maximum."
>
> Note that most bathtub drains are 1.5" inside diameter.
>
> So your characterization of 'filling the tub in 5 minutes' is SO far off base
> as to be laughable.

Yes, it is. "Exaggeration". Similarly, on Apri 27 I wrote, "it
requires flooding the tub to get a decently warm temperature." It is
not a measurement of what I have experienced, however. I have provided
an actual measurement where at home I simulated the hotel experience by
using the maximum flow rate (into the tub) and seeing how long it took
to reach the other end. And I included the information that this
provided a 1" depth at the drain.

I admit I omitted the 1.5" drain size because I measured that later.

By the way, my hotel experience is quite recent, over the past 3 years
including January of 2022. That 3 year period involves locations in
California and Arizona.

/dps

--
"Inviting people to laugh with you while you are laughing at yourself
is a good thing to do, You may be a fool but you're the fool in
charge." -- Carl Reiner

On Fri, 06 May 2022 09:51:38 -0700, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
wrote:

>lar3ryca submitted this gripping article, maybe on Friday:
>> On 2022-05-06 00:46, Snidely wrote:
>>> Snidely presented the following explanation :
>>>
>>>>> So far, you seem to be the only one who overflows a tub while having a
>>>>> shower, vs. quite a few AuE members who have been having showers in tubs
>>>>> for many years in many different tubs, without having the water even
>>>>> reach their ankles.
>>>
>>> For those reading carefully, I have never said the tub overflows.  I have
>>> said that the water can reach the far end of the tub, so perhaps 1" depth. 
>>> This is clearly a result of water being added to the tub faster than it is
>>> being removed.
>>
>> Snidely: Apr 29, 2022, 2:49:36 AM
>>
>> "I happen to not want to fill the tub in 5 minutes while showering."
>>
>>> The part worse than the splashing is that this situation involves a flow
>>> rate into the tub (via the shower head) much greater than needed for a
>>> comfortable shower, and wastes water.
>>
>> Nice PTD move. Divert from filling the tub in 5 minutes, to splashing, more
>> water then needed, and wasting water.
>>
>>> Any ambitious person is welcome to tell me how fast water goes into their
>>> shower/tub, or how fast it flows out.
>>
>> Snidely: Apr 30, 2022, 4:18:02 PM
>>
>> "Remember that the size of the pipe is only part of the equation: the
>> water is fed into the shower head under considerable pressure, provided
>> either by an elevated system source or by pumps or by both, and it
>> flows out of the tub under the pressure of the depth of the water in
>> the tub."
>>
>> The size of the drain is also only part of the equation. There is, as you
>> say, the pressure (varies with the depth of the water), and with the 'drop'
>> of the drain. The longer the drop, the faster the flow.
>>
>> I'm not going to do the math for you, and I no longer have a tub, but I
>> invite you to google with search terms:
>> "flow in gallons per minute" "bathtub drain"
>>
>> One comment in
>> https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r30477062-Plumbing-Tub-drain-speed-how-fast-should-it-be
>>
>> says:
>> "Your maximum possible drain rate will be given by the area of the drain,
>> area of the tub and height of the water above the drain.
>>
>> Considering an equivalent diameter of the actual opening of the drain of 1"
>> you will get a discharge rate of 19gal/min (2.5 cuft/min) for a water level
>> of 12".
>>
>> For a tub of 6'x2.5' you have an area of 15sqft - so you can expect a level
>> decrease rate of 2"/min as a maximum."
>>
>> Note that most bathtub drains are 1.5" inside diameter.
>>
>> So your characterization of 'filling the tub in 5 minutes' is SO far off base
>> as to be laughable.
>
>Yes, it is. "Exaggeration". Similarly, on Apri 27 I wrote, "it
>requires flooding the tub to get a decently warm temperature."

Which, right off, tells me you have a plumbing issue.

How long it takes for the water to be at the right temperature depends
on the plumbing and the distance between the shower and the hot water
heater.

The water in my tub/shower is hot almost instantly. I turn on the
water before stepping into the tub, put the mat down, and step under
the water. It's already at the temperture that I've set the knob to
deliver.

In the bathroom my wife uses, there is a longer wait for the water to
become the right temperature. Not a great deal longer, but longer
enough to notice.

The difference is that my bathroom is about 10 feet from the hot water
heater and my wife's bathroom is at the opposite end of the condo.
The water in the line between the hot water heater and my wife's
shower has cooled, and that water has to run out before the hot water
comes.

You seem to be equating water temperature with water pressure. The
temperature is the same from a dribble to a flood.

(We use different bathrooms because it ensures "no waiting")

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Tony Cooper noted that:
> On Fri, 06 May 2022 09:51:38 -0700, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> lar3ryca submitted this gripping article, maybe on Friday:
>>> On 2022-05-06 00:46, Snidely wrote:
>>>> Snidely presented the following explanation :
>>>>
>>>>>> So far, you seem to be the only one who overflows a tub while having a
>>>>>> shower, vs. quite a few AuE members who have been having showers in tubs
>>>>>> for many years in many different tubs, without having the water even
>>>>>> reach their ankles.
>>>>
>>>> For those reading carefully, I have never said the tub overflows.  I have
>>>> said that the water can reach the far end of the tub, so perhaps 1"
>>>> depth.  This is clearly a result of water being added to the tub faster
>>>> than it is being removed.
>>>
>>> Snidely: Apr 29, 2022, 2:49:36 AM
>>>
>>> "I happen to not want to fill the tub in 5 minutes while showering."
>>>
>>>> The part worse than the splashing is that this situation involves a flow
>>>> rate into the tub (via the shower head) much greater than needed for a
>>>> comfortable shower, and wastes water.
>>>
>>> Nice PTD move. Divert from filling the tub in 5 minutes, to splashing, more
>>> water then needed, and wasting water.
>>>
>>>> Any ambitious person is welcome to tell me how fast water goes into their
>>>> shower/tub, or how fast it flows out.
>>>
>>> Snidely: Apr 30, 2022, 4:18:02 PM
>>>
>>> "Remember that the size of the pipe is only part of the equation: the
>>> water is fed into the shower head under considerable pressure, provided
>>> either by an elevated system source or by pumps or by both, and it
>>> flows out of the tub under the pressure of the depth of the water in
>>> the tub."
>>>
>>> The size of the drain is also only part of the equation. There is, as you
>>> say, the pressure (varies with the depth of the water), and with the 'drop'
>>> of the drain. The longer the drop, the faster the flow.
>>>
>>> I'm not going to do the math for you, and I no longer have a tub, but I
>>> invite you to google with search terms:
>>> "flow in gallons per minute" "bathtub drain"
>>>
>>> One comment in
>>> https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r30477062-Plumbing-Tub-drain-speed-how-fast-should-it-be
>>>
>>> says:
>>> "Your maximum possible drain rate will be given by the area of the drain,
>>> area of the tub and height of the water above the drain.
>>>
>>> Considering an equivalent diameter of the actual opening of the drain of 1"
>>> you will get a discharge rate of 19gal/min (2.5 cuft/min) for a water level
>>> of 12".
>>>
>>> For a tub of 6'x2.5' you have an area of 15sqft - so you can expect a level
>>> decrease rate of 2"/min as a maximum."
>>>
>>> Note that most bathtub drains are 1.5" inside diameter.
>>>
>>> So your characterization of 'filling the tub in 5 minutes' is SO far off
>>> base as to be laughable.
>>
>> Yes, it is. "Exaggeration". Similarly, on Apri 27 I wrote, "it
>> requires flooding the tub to get a decently warm temperature."

Exaggeration for the purpose of increasing the whine factor.

> Which, right off, tells me you have a plumbing issue.
>
> How long it takes for the water to be at the right temperature depends
> on the plumbing and the distance between the shower and the hot water
> heater.
>
> The water in my tub/shower is hot almost instantly. I turn on the
> water before stepping into the tub, put the mat down, and step under
> the water. It's already at the temperture that I've set the knob to
> deliver.
>
> In the bathroom my wife uses, there is a longer wait for the water to
> become the right temperature. Not a great deal longer, but longer
> enough to notice.
>
> The difference is that my bathroom is about 10 feet from the hot water
> heater and my wife's bathroom is at the opposite end of the condo.
> The water in the line between the hot water heater and my wife's
> shower has cooled, and that water has to run out before the hot water
> comes.
>
> You seem to be equating water temperature with water pressure. The
> temperature is the same from a dribble to a flood.
>
>
> (We use different bathrooms because it ensures "no waiting")

No, you misunderstand. It is not a matter of waiting for the water to
get hot. It's a matter of the valve feature that rotating the knob
changes both the temperature and the flow, and the point where the
temperature matches my desire is very close to where the flow is
maximum.

I see that Lewis has encountered this type of control, but in a shower
context. It's not an unusual type of control in locker rooms, but
showers have bigger drains and I take short showers in locker room, so
the water wastage is a smaller whine in that context.

/dps

--
The presence of this syntax results from the fact that SQLite is really
a Tcl extension that has escaped into the wild.
<http://www.sqlite.org/lang_expr.html>

On 06-May-22 6:39, lar3ryca wrote:
>
> So far, you seem to be the only one who overflows a tub while having a
> shower, vs. quite a few AuE members who have been having showers in tubs
> for many years in many different tubs, without having the water even
> reach their ankles.

Of all the showers in all the bathrooms in all the world, he walks into
mine.

--
Sam Plusnet

On Fri, 06 May 2022 14:45:43 -0400, Tony Cooper
<tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 06 May 2022 09:51:38 -0700, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>lar3ryca submitted this gripping article, maybe on Friday:
>>> On 2022-05-06 00:46, Snidely wrote:
>>>> Snidely presented the following explanation :
>>>>
>>>>>> So far, you seem to be the only one who overflows a tub while having a
>>>>>> shower, vs. quite a few AuE members who have been having showers in tubs
>>>>>> for many years in many different tubs, without having the water even
>>>>>> reach their ankles.
>>>>
>>>> For those reading carefully, I have never said the tub overflows.  I have
>>>> said that the water can reach the far end of the tub, so perhaps 1" depth. 
>>>> This is clearly a result of water being added to the tub faster than it is
>>>> being removed.
>>>
>>> Snidely: Apr 29, 2022, 2:49:36 AM
>>>
>>> "I happen to not want to fill the tub in 5 minutes while showering."
>>>
>>>> The part worse than the splashing is that this situation involves a flow
>>>> rate into the tub (via the shower head) much greater than needed for a
>>>> comfortable shower, and wastes water.
>>>
>>> Nice PTD move. Divert from filling the tub in 5 minutes, to splashing, more
>>> water then needed, and wasting water.
>>>
>>>> Any ambitious person is welcome to tell me how fast water goes into their
>>>> shower/tub, or how fast it flows out.
>>>
>>> Snidely: Apr 30, 2022, 4:18:02 PM
>>>
>>> "Remember that the size of the pipe is only part of the equation: the
>>> water is fed into the shower head under considerable pressure, provided
>>> either by an elevated system source or by pumps or by both, and it
>>> flows out of the tub under the pressure of the depth of the water in
>>> the tub."
>>>
>>> The size of the drain is also only part of the equation. There is, as you
>>> say, the pressure (varies with the depth of the water), and with the 'drop'
>>> of the drain. The longer the drop, the faster the flow.
>>>
>>> I'm not going to do the math for you, and I no longer have a tub, but I
>>> invite you to google with search terms:
>>> "flow in gallons per minute" "bathtub drain"
>>>
>>> One comment in
>>> https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r30477062-Plumbing-Tub-drain-speed-how-fast-should-it-be
>>>
>>> says:
>>> "Your maximum possible drain rate will be given by the area of the drain,
>>> area of the tub and height of the water above the drain.
>>>
>>> Considering an equivalent diameter of the actual opening of the drain of 1"
>>> you will get a discharge rate of 19gal/min (2.5 cuft/min) for a water level
>>> of 12".
>>>
>>> For a tub of 6'x2.5' you have an area of 15sqft - so you can expect a level
>>> decrease rate of 2"/min as a maximum."
>>>
>>> Note that most bathtub drains are 1.5" inside diameter.
>>>
>>> So your characterization of 'filling the tub in 5 minutes' is SO far off base
>>> as to be laughable.
>>
>>Yes, it is. "Exaggeration". Similarly, on Apri 27 I wrote, "it
>>requires flooding the tub to get a decently warm temperature."
>
>Which, right off, tells me you have a plumbing issue.
>
>How long it takes for the water to be at the right temperature depends
>on the plumbing and the distance between the shower and the hot water
>heater.
>
>The water in my tub/shower is hot almost instantly.

Do you have a tankless hot water heater? I understand that that's the
case with the tankless type.

Unfortunately, I have to wait a few minutes.

On Fri, 6 May 2022 20:52:36 +0100, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

>On 06-May-22 6:39, lar3ryca wrote:
>>
>> So far, you seem to be the only one who overflows a tub while having a
>> shower, vs. quite a few AuE members who have been having showers in tubs
>> for many years in many different tubs, without having the water even
>> reach their ankles.
>
>Of all the showers in all the bathrooms in all the world, he walks into
>mine.

I didn't even know there were showers in Rick's, not just bathtubs.
Just a guess but perhaps showers in hotels were rare back in 1942.

On Fri, 06 May 2022 14:21:23 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 06 May 2022 14:45:43 -0400, Tony Cooper
><tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 06 May 2022 09:51:38 -0700, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>lar3ryca submitted this gripping article, maybe on Friday:
>>>> On 2022-05-06 00:46, Snidely wrote:
>>>>> Snidely presented the following explanation :
>>>>>
>>>>>>> So far, you seem to be the only one who overflows a tub while having a
>>>>>>> shower, vs. quite a few AuE members who have been having showers in tubs
>>>>>>> for many years in many different tubs, without having the water even
>>>>>>> reach their ankles.
>>>>>
>>>>> For those reading carefully, I have never said the tub overflows.  I have
>>>>> said that the water can reach the far end of the tub, so perhaps 1" depth. 
>>>>> This is clearly a result of water being added to the tub faster than it is
>>>>> being removed.
>>>>
>>>> Snidely: Apr 29, 2022, 2:49:36 AM
>>>>
>>>> "I happen to not want to fill the tub in 5 minutes while showering."
>>>>
>>>>> The part worse than the splashing is that this situation involves a flow
>>>>> rate into the tub (via the shower head) much greater than needed for a
>>>>> comfortable shower, and wastes water.
>>>>
>>>> Nice PTD move. Divert from filling the tub in 5 minutes, to splashing, more
>>>> water then needed, and wasting water.
>>>>
>>>>> Any ambitious person is welcome to tell me how fast water goes into their
>>>>> shower/tub, or how fast it flows out.
>>>>
>>>> Snidely: Apr 30, 2022, 4:18:02 PM
>>>>
>>>> "Remember that the size of the pipe is only part of the equation: the
>>>> water is fed into the shower head under considerable pressure, provided
>>>> either by an elevated system source or by pumps or by both, and it
>>>> flows out of the tub under the pressure of the depth of the water in
>>>> the tub."
>>>>
>>>> The size of the drain is also only part of the equation. There is, as you
>>>> say, the pressure (varies with the depth of the water), and with the 'drop'
>>>> of the drain. The longer the drop, the faster the flow.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not going to do the math for you, and I no longer have a tub, but I
>>>> invite you to google with search terms:
>>>> "flow in gallons per minute" "bathtub drain"
>>>>
>>>> One comment in
>>>> https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r30477062-Plumbing-Tub-drain-speed-how-fast-should-it-be
>>>>
>>>> says:
>>>> "Your maximum possible drain rate will be given by the area of the drain,
>>>> area of the tub and height of the water above the drain.
>>>>
>>>> Considering an equivalent diameter of the actual opening of the drain of 1"
>>>> you will get a discharge rate of 19gal/min (2.5 cuft/min) for a water level
>>>> of 12".
>>>>
>>>> For a tub of 6'x2.5' you have an area of 15sqft - so you can expect a level
>>>> decrease rate of 2"/min as a maximum."
>>>>
>>>> Note that most bathtub drains are 1.5" inside diameter.
>>>>
>>>> So your characterization of 'filling the tub in 5 minutes' is SO far off base
>>>> as to be laughable.
>>>
>>>Yes, it is. "Exaggeration". Similarly, on Apri 27 I wrote, "it
>>>requires flooding the tub to get a decently warm temperature."
>>
>>Which, right off, tells me you have a plumbing issue.
>>
>>How long it takes for the water to be at the right temperature depends
>>on the plumbing and the distance between the shower and the hot water
>>heater.
>>
>>The water in my tub/shower is hot almost instantly.
>
>
>Do you have a tankless hot water heater? I understand that that's the
>case with the tankless type.
>
No. Regular electric tank-type.

>Unfortunately, I have to wait a few minutes.
--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.