Tuesday, Paul Wolff observed:
> On Tue, 3 May 2022, at 21:50:01, Peter Moylan posted:
>> On 02/05/22 19:41, Paul Wolff wrote:
>>
>>> There is a communication failure here. I understand the sort of
>>> 'axis' that applies to the manually adjustable shower controls that
>>> we are writing about to be an imaginary line in the control valve
>>> structure about which, or along which, a part moves.
>>>
>>> Everything I've read here tells me that there are two motions in the
>>> control we're discussing. One is rotary and one is longitudinal. It
>>> seems to me that they share a common axis. Snidely says that they
>>> operate on two co-linear axes. To my mind, there is no difference:
>>> the axis-defining line is one and the same. Or perhaps he thinks
>>> co-linear means intersecting? That works if my final para below is
>>> what he's thinking about.
>>
>> The concept of "axis" is irrelevant except when one is talking about
>> rotation about an axis. Linear motion does not have an axis.
>
> That might have been true when it was tied to its ancient origins, but
> no longer today. It can't be unfair to refer to the OED (well, the
> Shorter OED sitting on my hard drive which is easy to copy/paste from).
> This states three kinds of meaning for axis:
> -> I Of rotation
> -> II A line from pole to pole; a principal direction of extension.
> (Passing into branch III.)
> -> III Of symmetry or reference.
>>
>> As a preliminary, let's take a step back and look at the mixer tap I
>> have in my kitchen:
>>
>> <https://www.northernrv.com.au/product/standard-kitchen-mixer-tap-200mm-spout/>
>>
>> Here the temperature is controlled by rotating the lever around a
>> vertical axis, and the flow rate is controlled by moving the lever up
>> and down. That, at least, is the layman's description, but if we want to
>> be technically precise that up-and-down is really a circular motion:
>> rotation about a horizontal axis.
>>
>> So far, I think we're all in agreement. But the shower control under
>> discussion is different. With an in-and-out knob, we have one rotational
>> movement (for temperature) and one *linear* motion (for flow rate).
>> There is only one axis because only one of the two motions is a
>> rotation. The second motion has nothing to do with movement around an
>> axis, because it is not a rotation.
>
> All right. I think of a piston moving in a cylinder, which is something
> like what is happening with the combination in-out and rotary control
> knob. Maybe it doesn't matter for the moment whether the centre line is
> an axis or isn't an axis. Let's just park it. Snidely wanted two axes.

>> True, we can talk about straight line movement as the limiting case of
>> circular movement, as the radius becomes infinite; but that's not a
>> useful concept in this case, because it would involve a second axis that
>> is infinitely far away.
>>
> I don't think that was envisaged by anyone.

Linear movement is measured along an axis. You can call that a tape
measure or a ruler, but it is movement along an axis.

/dps

--
We’ve learned way more than we wanted to know about the early history
of American professional basketball, like that you could have once
watched a game between teams named the Indianapolis Kautskys and the
Akron Firestone Non-Skids. -- fivethirtyeight.com

on 5/2/2022, Lewis supposed :
> In message <mn.f3957e641173dc3f.127094@snitoo> Snidely
> <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Lewis speculated:
>>> In message <113p6hln14sgi2blfiddb2ajcmt0jvgrk9@4ax.com> Tony Cooper
>>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 17:59:52 -0700, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Sometimes that is a reason, but many many times it is the flowrate into
>>>>> the shower that is the issue. The tub does not include pumps to
>>>>> increase the pressure at the drain.
>>>> I just can't conceive of the tub filling from the shower with the
>>>> drain open. I've never seen anything close to that.
>>>
>>> Agreed. It seems very very odd to me. The drain on a tub is at least
>>> twice the size of the pipe feeding in water.
>>>
>>> If the water from the shower backs-up in the tub, something is very wrong
>>> and needs to be fixed.
>
>> So you guys really think I can't recognize a stopped-up drain? Sheesh.
>
> It's hard to say, since what you are describing is something I have
> never seen WITHOUT a stopped drain.
>
> Of course, stopped or clogged drains are not always obvious.
>
>> At home, my ideal shower rate is at about 1 gpm. The maximum flow from
>> the spout is about 4 gpm, and in 30 seconds the water will reach the
>> far end of the tub and a depth of 1 inch at the drain end. It will
>> take 2 1/2 minutes to drain, which is no record but definitely not
>> plugged and comparable to other tubs I've experienced.
>
> This does not match any shower andrub u have ever been in. It does not
> take 2.5 minutes to drain 1 gallon of water out of any drain in the
> hose, and most certainly not the large drina on the tub. The bathroom
> sink has the smallest drain pipe, and it will drain a gallon of water on
> just a bit under 1 minute. It will take a bit over 1 minute to fill a
> gallon of water.

This doesn't match my experience. Tubs often do not have a much bigger
drain than sinks, and you aren't accounting for hydrostatic pressure.
One gallon in my bathroom sink is at least 8 inches deep at the drain,
and that head makes a difference. And I've done the homework: I took
a plastic cup (Peets, not Starbucks) and a plastic take-out tray,
drilled the same size hole (0.24in) in each, filled them with water.
The cup drained in 30s, the tray took that long *and* an additional 40s
to drain.

> I do not need to measure anything to know that when I take a shower, the
> tub does not fill with water, The tub does not fill *at all*. The is
> not an inch of water in it. There is nto 1/4" of water in it. The drain
> is never covered with water unless the train stopper is closed.

My usual shower does not fill the tub with water, either. 1 GPM is
quite satisfactory, and I only use 4 GPM when the hotel has the valve I
hate or when I'm doing measurements.

What flow rate do you use when you take a shower?

/dps

--
There's nothing inherently wrong with Big Data. What matters, as it
does for Arnold Lund in California or Richard Rothman in Baltimore, are
the questions -- old and new, good and bad -- this newest tool lets us
ask. (R. Lerhman, CSMonitor.com)

On 5/3/2022 6:08 PM, Quinn C wrote:
> * CDB:
>> Lewis wrote:
>>> CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>>>>> CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Lewis wrote:
>>>>>>> Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>>>>> As far as my knowledge of shower head mechanics goes,
>>>>>>>> a shower head cannot produce more flow than the pipe
>>>>>>>> delivering the water to the head produces. The shower
>>>>>>>> head design can concentrate the flow or disperse the
>>>>>>>> flow, but it cannot increase or decrease the flow.

>>>>>>> Shower heads constrict the flow in a misguided "water
>>>>>>> saving" measure that prevents you getting the full amount
>>>>>>> of water out of the pipe, making showers take longer
>>>>>>> since you have to stand there for much longer to get all
>>>>>>> the soap rinsed off and the shampoo out of your hair.

>>>>>>> It takes several minutes to fill the kitchen sink, long
>>>>>>> enough that the water has cooled considerably by the time
>>>>>>> the sink fills up.

>>>>>>> Maybe Florida doesn't required low-flow showers and
>>>>>>> sinks like the rest of the country?

>>>>>> We do. Not sure if it's federal or provincial. Before I
>>>>>> graduated to a hand-held, a renovator had installed a
>>>>>> water-saving showerhead on me; it contained a metal baffle
>>>>>> that was easy enough to remove.

>>>>> I've fitted one, it's a great way to feel smug about saving
>>>>> the planet.

>>>> I turn off the water once I'm wet, and turn it on again only
>>>> when I'm ready to rinse off; I use luke-warm water, not hot,
>>>> and don't bathe quite every day, since I live alone. Let the
>>>> world content itself with that.

>>> Ah, the old 'saving water" myth, a lie perpertrated by water
>>> companies to cause people to use less water so they can complain
>>> about falling revenue and raise theirs rates.

>> Certainly Ottawa Hydro (not a water company) has done that.

> So what have they done in relation to (falling?) water use?

> Here, water isn't even metered in most private homes, so what Lewis
> said is entirely a non-issue. Water is charged at a fixed portion
> per household plus a portion proportional to evaluation.

Our water use is metered, and the price has been going up, but I have
not heard it claimed that that is because of underuse. The idea seems to
be to teach us the virtues of thrift.

On 5/3/2022 2:42 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
> CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> Paul Wolff <bounceme@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Snidely posted:

>>>> [Mutual incomprehension follows]

>>>>> Sigh.

>>>> Me too. Let's all go home.

>>> Little did I anticipate, when the subject of water control in
>>> ablution first came up here, that it would result in a shower of
>>> divergent opinions and a flood of heretofore unknown to me
>>> technical aspects of what I thought was a fairly simple and
>>> functional knob.

>>> I was not aware that some consider the shower venue to be a
>>> dangerous environment replete with a rising tide of water and
>>> accident inducing barriers employed in ingress and egress. And
>>> yet, no one brought up the neccessity of a knobbly mat placed on
>>> the bottom surface to avoid slippage, which is my own primary
>>> safety precaution.

>>> I had not considered that the benefits of a detachable shower
>>> head includes under-beard rinsing that is not, evidently,
>>> otherwise possible. Or, that the directional ability of water
>>> dispersal alllows better rinsing of the pits than simply raising
>>> one's arms and turning to the water.

>>> The discussion was, to the best of my knowledge, the first
>>> appearance of "shower" in alt.usage.english since that famous
>>> exchange between Rey and PTD after PTD's ill-considered
>>> drop-the-soap comment.

>> Excerpts?

> Alas, with the absence of Deja Vu, providing excerpts from old
> threads is too difficult to attempt.

> I would not want to even if I could. Rey, as many here know, spent
> some time as a guest of the government in federal prison. PTD made
> a comment about dropping-the-soap, and Rey responded rather
> forcefully. He made some unkind comments that, if replicated by one
> of our posters here, would wear out his * key.

> I would not want to provide the excerpts because I feel that the
> nature of the remarks made by Rey crossed a line that I do not feel
> should be crossed.

You must be the judge of that, then; it seems to me that Peter's
suggestion of anal rape, no doubt made in an aggressively hostile way to
someone who had been imprisoned, crossed a line or two as well.

In message <mn.1cac7e650921dd06.127094@snitoo> Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
> on 5/2/2022, Lewis supposed :
>> In message <mn.f3957e641173dc3f.127094@snitoo> Snidely
>> <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Lewis speculated:
>>>> In message <113p6hln14sgi2blfiddb2ajcmt0jvgrk9@4ax.com> Tony Cooper
>>>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 17:59:52 -0700, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Sometimes that is a reason, but many many times it is the flowrate into
>>>>>> the shower that is the issue. The tub does not include pumps to
>>>>>> increase the pressure at the drain.
>>>>> I just can't conceive of the tub filling from the shower with the
>>>>> drain open. I've never seen anything close to that.
>>>>
>>>> Agreed. It seems very very odd to me. The drain on a tub is at least
>>>> twice the size of the pipe feeding in water.
>>>>
>>>> If the water from the shower backs-up in the tub, something is very wrong
>>>> and needs to be fixed.
>>
>>> So you guys really think I can't recognize a stopped-up drain? Sheesh.
>>
>> It's hard to say, since what you are describing is something I have
>> never seen WITHOUT a stopped drain.
>>
>> Of course, stopped or clogged drains are not always obvious.
>>
>>> At home, my ideal shower rate is at about 1 gpm. The maximum flow from
>>> the spout is about 4 gpm, and in 30 seconds the water will reach the
>>> far end of the tub and a depth of 1 inch at the drain end. It will
>>> take 2 1/2 minutes to drain, which is no record but definitely not
>>> plugged and comparable to other tubs I've experienced.
>>
>> This does not match any shower andrub u have ever been in. It does not
>> take 2.5 minutes to drain 1 gallon of water out of any drain in the
>> hose, and most certainly not the large drina on the tub. The bathroom
>> sink has the smallest drain pipe, and it will drain a gallon of water on
>> just a bit under 1 minute. It will take a bit over 1 minute to fill a
>> gallon of water.

> This doesn't match my experience. Tubs often do not have a much bigger
> drain than sinks, and you aren't accounting for hydrostatic pressure.
> One gallon in my bathroom sink is at least 8 inches deep at the drain,
> and that head makes a difference. And I've done the homework: I took
> a plastic cup (Peets, not Starbucks) and a plastic take-out tray,
> drilled the same size hole (0.24in) in each, filled them with water.
> The cup drained in 30s, the tray took that long *and* an additional 40s
> to drain.

A bathtub is not a flat tray with a hole drilled in it. But regardless
of your tests, I have still never ever stood ankle deep in a tub while
taking a shower unless the stopper was engaged or there was a plug in
the bathtub drain. Never. Not once.

--
What if there were no hypothetical questions?

On 5/3/2022 9:17 PM, Snidely wrote:
> Peter Moylan submitted this idea :
>> Paul Wolff wrote:

>>> There is a communication failure here. I understand the sort of
>>> 'axis' that applies to the manually adjustable shower controls
>>> that we are writing about to be an imaginary line in the control
>>> valve structure about which, or along which, a part moves.

>>> Everything I've read here tells me that there are two motions in
>>> the control we're discussing. One is rotary and one is
>>> longitudinal. It seems to me that they share a common axis.
>>> Snidely says that they operate on two co-linear axes. To my mind,
>>> there is no difference: the axis-defining line is one and the
>>> same. Or perhaps he thinks co-linear means intersecting? That
>>> works if my final para below is what he's thinking about.

>> The concept of "axis" is irrelevant except when one is talking
>> about rotation about an axis. Linear motion does not have an axis.

>> As a preliminary, let's take a step back and look at the mixer tap
>> I have in my kitchen:

>> <https://www.northernrv.com.au/product/standard-kitchen-mixer-tap-200mm-spout/>
>> Here the temperature is controlled by rotating the lever around a
>> vertical axis, and the flow rate is controlled by moving the lever
>> up and down. That, at least, is the layman's description, but if we
>> want to be technically precise that up-and-down is really a
>> circular motion: rotation about a horizontal axis.

>> So far, I think we're all in agreement. But the shower control
>> under discussion is different. With an in-and-out knob, we have one
>> rotational movement (for temperature) and one *linear* motion (for
>> flow rate). There is only one axis because only one of the two
>> motions is a rotation. The second motion has nothing to do with
>> movement around an axis, because it is not a rotation.

>> True, we can talk about straight line movement as the limiting case
>> of circular movement, as the radius becomes infinite; but that's
>> not a useful concept in this case, because it would involve a
>> second axis that is infinitely far away.

> Peter, what I call a "two-axis" valve has two degrees of freedom.
> Each degree of freedom is an axis.

You could be talking about the tap in my bathroom sink. It is a lever
that you raise to start the flow and raise or lower to control the
water-volume. You move the lever horizontally in about a 90-degree arc
to control the mixture of hot and cold water that is admitted. Two
axes, one horizontal for volume and one vertical for mixture. The
horizontal axis turns side-to-side with the lever's movement around the
vertical axis.

--
Two cents, and cheap at the price.

On 04/05/22 21:50, CDB wrote:
> On 5/3/2022 2:42 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:

>> Alas, with the absence of Deja Vu, providing excerpts from old
>> threads is too difficult to attempt.
>
>> I would not want to even if I could. Rey, as many here know, spent
>> some time as a guest of the government in federal prison. PTD
>> made a comment about dropping-the-soap, and Rey responded rather
>> forcefully. He made some unkind comments that, if replicated by
>> one of our posters here, would wear out his * key.
>
>> I would not want to provide the excerpts because I feel that the
>> nature of the remarks made by Rey crossed a line that I do not feel
>> should be crossed.
>
> You must be the judge of that, then; it seems to me that Peter's
> suggestion of anal rape, no doubt made in an aggressively hostile way
> to someone who had been imprisoned, crossed a line or two as well.

It was obvious to everyone here at the time that Rey was sensitive about
the topic of prison, because he felt that there had been a miscarriage
of justice. Thus, anyone with a motivation to stick a knife in his gut
only had to mention his prison term.

In the same situation, I would react strongly.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

In message <t4roic$1dfh$1@gioia.aioe.org> CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
> The stand I got for it (I decided I didn't want to drive nails into
> the tree) has a "squirrel baffle"; so we shall see how things work
> out. I plan to go on feeding them and singing to them - sometimes in
> Spanish. They don't seem to mind.

I recall a comic strip that I cut out of the newspaper and sent to my
mother, who's had a lifteime battle with the squirrels. Snce I cut it
out of a newspaper it must have been at least 30 years ago.

Anyway, it showed a free standing bird feeder with baffles above an
below and possible a sign that said "Squirrel Proof Bird Feeder"

Then it showed a squirrel in a top hat and cape, then a cloud of smoke
with a BAMF! or similar, and then the squirrel eating all the seeds out
of the bird feeder.

--
Babysitter gives baby away
(Labyrinth)

On Wed, 4 May 2022 22:03:14 +1000, Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 04/05/22 21:50, CDB wrote:
>> On 5/3/2022 2:42 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>>> Alas, with the absence of Deja Vu, providing excerpts from old
>>> threads is too difficult to attempt.
>>
>>> I would not want to even if I could. Rey, as many here know, spent
>>> some time as a guest of the government in federal prison. PTD
>>> made a comment about dropping-the-soap, and Rey responded rather
>>> forcefully. He made some unkind comments that, if replicated by
>>> one of our posters here, would wear out his * key.
>>
>>> I would not want to provide the excerpts because I feel that the
>>> nature of the remarks made by Rey crossed a line that I do not feel
>>> should be crossed.
>>
>> You must be the judge of that, then; it seems to me that Peter's
>> suggestion of anal rape, no doubt made in an aggressively hostile way
>> to someone who had been imprisoned, crossed a line or two as well.
>
>It was obvious to everyone here at the time that Rey was sensitive about
>the topic of prison, because he felt that there had been a miscarriage
>of justice. Thus, anyone with a motivation to stick a knife in his gut
>only had to mention his prison term.
>
>In the same situation, I would react strongly.

I have a difficult time thinking of Rey as "sensitive". While he did
feel his conviction was a miscarriage of justice, he was quite open
about having been in prison. There was quite a bit of information
about the cause in his "Maledicta" publication.

On the miscarriage bit, Rey didn't say "I didn't do it". He said "I
shouldn't have been convicted of it".

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 8:17:24 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 03/05/22 22:45, Lewis wrote:
> > In message <t4ptj0$3gp$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
> > <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> >> You can be fined here for watering your lawn.
> > Amusingly, the same is true here. So you get citations for watering
> > at the wrong time, and citations for letting the lawn die.
> > I recall watching some home improvement show with my wife that took
> > place in Phoenix (or more likely a suburb). They had to plan around
> > planting a verge of Kentucky bluegrass, since that was required on
> > the boundary of the property..
> > Phoenix is a desert and KBG is a high-water grass.
>
> I always get a shock when I visit Canberra, the national capital, during
> a drought. You approach the city through parched countryside, with
> fields either bare of any vegetation or with a scattering of brown
> grass. Once inside the city, you see sprinklers operating on places like
> road median strips, to keep everything green.
>
> I suppose it's appropriate for a city of politicians. All image and no
> substance.

I was in England during the legendary Drought of '18. I was shocked
that Brasenose College sprinkled all three of its lawns, morning and
evening.

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:03:23 AM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 04/05/22 21:50, CDB wrote:

> > You must be the judge of that, then; it seems to me that Peter's
> > suggestion of anal rape, no doubt made in an aggressively hostile way
> > to someone who had been imprisoned, crossed a line or two as well.
>
> It was obvious to everyone here at the time that Rey was sensitive about
> the topic of prison, because he felt that there had been a miscarriage
> of justice. Thus, anyone with a motivation to stick a knife in his gut
> only had to mention his prison term.
>
> In the same situation, I would react strongly.

Consider the provocation. bebe... provided just a tiny but disgusting sampling.

It would fall in the "can dish it out but sure can't take it" category,
except for the little matter of truth versus falsehood.

In article <f3b1ea36-dc97-47c5-b327-3ce50cdf14den@googlegroups.com>,
Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 8:17:24 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > On 03/05/22 22:45, Lewis wrote:
> > > In message <t4ptj0$3gp$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
> > > <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> > >> You can be fined here for watering your lawn.
> > > Amusingly, the same is true here. So you get citations for watering
> > > at the wrong time, and citations for letting the lawn die.
> > > I recall watching some home improvement show with my wife that took
> > > place in Phoenix (or more likely a suburb). They had to plan around
> > > planting a verge of Kentucky bluegrass, since that was required on
> > > the boundary of the property..
> > > Phoenix is a desert and KBG is a high-water grass.
> >
> > I always get a shock when I visit Canberra, the national capital,
> > during a drought. You approach the city through parched countryside,
> > with fields either bare of any vegetation or with a scattering of
> > brown grass. Once inside the city, you see sprinklers operating on
> > places like road median strips, to keep everything green.
> >
> > I suppose it's appropriate for a city of politicians. All image and no
> > substance.

> I was in England during the legendary Drought of '18. I was shocked
> that Brasenose College sprinkled all three of its lawns, morning and
> evening.

That drought, like many, did not apply to the entire country. Saving water
in Oxford would not benefit people in Cormwall.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:01:14 AM UTC-4, charles wrote:
> In article <f3b1ea36-dc97-47c5...@googlegroups.com>,
> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 8:17:24 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > > On 03/05/22 22:45, Lewis wrote:
> > > > In message <t4ptj0$3gp$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
> > > > <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> > > >> You can be fined here for watering your lawn.
> > > > Amusingly, the same is true here. So you get citations for watering
> > > > at the wrong time, and citations for letting the lawn die.
> > > > I recall watching some home improvement show with my wife that took
> > > > place in Phoenix (or more likely a suburb). They had to plan around
> > > > planting a verge of Kentucky bluegrass, since that was required on
> > > > the boundary of the property..
> > > > Phoenix is a desert and KBG is a high-water grass.
> > > I always get a shock when I visit Canberra, the national capital,
> > > during a drought. You approach the city through parched countryside,
> > > with fields either bare of any vegetation or with a scattering of
> > > brown grass. Once inside the city, you see sprinklers operating on
> > > places like road median strips, to keep everything green.
> > > I suppose it's appropriate for a city of politicians. All image and no
> > > substance.
> > I was in England during the legendary Drought of '18. I was shocked
> > that Brasenose College sprinkled all three of its lawns, morning and
> > evening.
>
> That drought, like many, did not apply to the entire country. Saving water
> in Oxford would not benefit people in Cormwall.

It would benefit people in Oxford(shire). Everything was brown, except
presumably a number of enclosed spaces in colleges. I didn't go up in a
tower to see.

Thus spake Lewis:
> In message <mn.1cac7e650921dd06.127094@snitoo> Snidely
> <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
>> on 5/2/2022, Lewis supposed :
>>> In message <mn.f3957e641173dc3f.127094@snitoo> Snidely
>>> <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Lewis speculated:
>>>>> In message <113p6hln14sgi2blfiddb2ajcmt0jvgrk9@4ax.com> Tony Cooper
>>>>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 17:59:52 -0700, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sometimes that is a reason, but many many times it is the flowrate into
>>>>>>> the shower that is the issue. The tub does not include pumps to
>>>>>>> increase the pressure at the drain.
>>>>>> I just can't conceive of the tub filling from the shower with the
>>>>>> drain open. I've never seen anything close to that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Agreed. It seems very very odd to me. The drain on a tub is at least
>>>>> twice the size of the pipe feeding in water.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the water from the shower backs-up in the tub, something is very wrong
>>>>> and needs to be fixed.
>>>
>>>> So you guys really think I can't recognize a stopped-up drain? Sheesh.
>>>
>>> It's hard to say, since what you are describing is something I have
>>> never seen WITHOUT a stopped drain.
>>>
>>> Of course, stopped or clogged drains are not always obvious.
>>>
>>>> At home, my ideal shower rate is at about 1 gpm. The maximum flow from
>>>> the spout is about 4 gpm, and in 30 seconds the water will reach the
>>>> far end of the tub and a depth of 1 inch at the drain end. It will
>>>> take 2 1/2 minutes to drain, which is no record but definitely not
>>>> plugged and comparable to other tubs I've experienced.
>>>
>>> This does not match any shower andrub u have ever been in. It does not
>>> take 2.5 minutes to drain 1 gallon of water out of any drain in the
>>> hose, and most certainly not the large drina on the tub. The bathroom
>>> sink has the smallest drain pipe, and it will drain a gallon of water on
>>> just a bit under 1 minute. It will take a bit over 1 minute to fill a
>>> gallon of water.
>
>> This doesn't match my experience. Tubs often do not have a much bigger
>> drain than sinks, and you aren't accounting for hydrostatic pressure.
>> One gallon in my bathroom sink is at least 8 inches deep at the drain,
>> and that head makes a difference. And I've done the homework: I took
>> a plastic cup (Peets, not Starbucks) and a plastic take-out tray,
>> drilled the same size hole (0.24in) in each, filled them with water.
>> The cup drained in 30s, the tray took that long *and* an additional 40s
>> to drain.
>
> A bathtub is not a flat tray with a hole drilled in it.

No, it has a 1:60 slope, doesn't it.

> But regardless
> of your tests, I have still never ever stood ankle deep in a tub while
> taking a shower unless the stopper was engaged or there was a plug in
> the bathtub drain. Never. Not once.

That's fine, but you're still handwaving. No doubt your tub works
better than mine and 50 others that I've seen. But without numbers,
there is no way to do a meaningful comparison.

/dps

--
But happiness cannot be pursued; it must ensue. One must have a reason
to 'be happy.'"
Viktor Frankl

Peter Moylan submitted this gripping article, maybe on Wednesday:
> On 04/05/22 21:50, CDB wrote:
>> On 5/3/2022 2:42 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>>> Alas, with the absence of Deja Vu, providing excerpts from old
>>> threads is too difficult to attempt.
>>
>>> I would not want to even if I could. Rey, as many here know, spent
>>> some time as a guest of the government in federal prison. PTD
>>> made a comment about dropping-the-soap, and Rey responded rather
>>> forcefully. He made some unkind comments that, if replicated by
>>> one of our posters here, would wear out his * key.
>>
>>> I would not want to provide the excerpts because I feel that the
>>> nature of the remarks made by Rey crossed a line that I do not feel
>>> should be crossed.
>>
>> You must be the judge of that, then; it seems to me that Peter's
>> suggestion of anal rape, no doubt made in an aggressively hostile way
>> to someone who had been imprisoned, crossed a line or two as well.
>
> It was obvious to everyone here at the time that Rey was sensitive about
> the topic of prison, because he felt that there had been a miscarriage
> of justice. Thus, anyone with a motivation to stick a knife in his gut
> only had to mention his prison term.
>
> In the same situation, I would react strongly.

The group is full of examples of lines being crossed in response to
lines being crossed. And every time it is totally not helpful, except
possibly temporarily lowering someone's blood pressure.

/dps

--
Rule #0: Don't be on fire.
In case of fire, exit the building before tweeting about it.
(Sighting reported by Adam F)

Just this Wednesday, CDB explained that ...
> On 5/3/2022 9:17 PM, Snidely wrote:
>> Peter Moylan submitted this idea :
>>> Paul Wolff wrote:
>
>>>> There is a communication failure here. I understand the sort of 'axis'
>>>> that applies to the manually adjustable shower controls
>>>> that we are writing about to be an imaginary line in the control
>>>> valve structure about which, or along which, a part moves.
>
>>>> Everything I've read here tells me that there are two motions in
>>>> the control we're discussing. One is rotary and one is
>>>> longitudinal. It seems to me that they share a common axis.
>>>> Snidely says that they operate on two co-linear axes. To my mind,
>>>> there is no difference: the axis-defining line is one and the
>>>> same. Or perhaps he thinks co-linear means intersecting? That
>>>> works if my final para below is what he's thinking about.
>
>>> The concept of "axis" is irrelevant except when one is talking
>>> about rotation about an axis. Linear motion does not have an axis.
>
>>> As a preliminary, let's take a step back and look at the mixer tap
>>> I have in my kitchen:
>
>>> <https://www.northernrv.com.au/product/standard-kitchen-mixer-tap-200mm-spout/>
>>> Here the temperature is controlled by rotating the lever around a
>>> vertical axis, and the flow rate is controlled by moving the lever
>>> up and down. That, at least, is the layman's description, but if we
>>> want to be technically precise that up-and-down is really a
>>> circular motion: rotation about a horizontal axis.
>
>>> So far, I think we're all in agreement. But the shower control
>>> under discussion is different. With an in-and-out knob, we have one
>>> rotational movement (for temperature) and one *linear* motion (for
>>> flow rate). There is only one axis because only one of the two
>>> motions is a rotation. The second motion has nothing to do with
>>> movement around an axis, because it is not a rotation.
>
>>> True, we can talk about straight line movement as the limiting case
>>> of circular movement, as the radius becomes infinite; but that's
>>> not a useful concept in this case, because it would involve a
>>> second axis that is infinitely far away.
>
>> Peter, what I call a "two-axis" valve has two degrees of freedom.
>> Each degree of freedom is an axis.
>
> You could be talking about the tap in my bathroom sink. It is a lever
> that you raise to start the flow and raise or lower to control the
> water-volume. You move the lever horizontally in about a 90-degree arc
> to control the mixture of hot and cold water that is admitted. Two
> axes, one horizontal for volume and one vertical for mixture. The
> horizontal axis turns side-to-side with the lever's movement around the
> vertical axis.

In this case, you have two axes in both the physical and the functional
sense.

/dps

--
As a colleague once told me about an incoming manager,
"He does very well in a suck-up, kick-down culture."
Bill in Vancouver

On Wed, 04 May 2022 15:07:40 -0700, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Thus spake Lewis:
>> In message <mn.1cac7e650921dd06.127094@snitoo> Snidely
>> <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> on 5/2/2022, Lewis supposed :
>>>> In message <mn.f3957e641173dc3f.127094@snitoo> Snidely
>>>> <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Lewis speculated:
>>>>>> In message <113p6hln14sgi2blfiddb2ajcmt0jvgrk9@4ax.com> Tony Cooper
>>>>>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 17:59:52 -0700, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sometimes that is a reason, but many many times it is the flowrate into
>>>>>>>> the shower that is the issue. The tub does not include pumps to
>>>>>>>> increase the pressure at the drain.
>>>>>>> I just can't conceive of the tub filling from the shower with the
>>>>>>> drain open. I've never seen anything close to that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Agreed. It seems very very odd to me. The drain on a tub is at least
>>>>>> twice the size of the pipe feeding in water.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the water from the shower backs-up in the tub, something is very wrong
>>>>>> and needs to be fixed.
>>>>
>>>>> So you guys really think I can't recognize a stopped-up drain? Sheesh.
>>>>
>>>> It's hard to say, since what you are describing is something I have
>>>> never seen WITHOUT a stopped drain.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, stopped or clogged drains are not always obvious.
>>>>
>>>>> At home, my ideal shower rate is at about 1 gpm. The maximum flow from
>>>>> the spout is about 4 gpm, and in 30 seconds the water will reach the
>>>>> far end of the tub and a depth of 1 inch at the drain end. It will
>>>>> take 2 1/2 minutes to drain, which is no record but definitely not
>>>>> plugged and comparable to other tubs I've experienced.
>>>>
>>>> This does not match any shower andrub u have ever been in. It does not
>>>> take 2.5 minutes to drain 1 gallon of water out of any drain in the
>>>> hose, and most certainly not the large drina on the tub. The bathroom
>>>> sink has the smallest drain pipe, and it will drain a gallon of water on
>>>> just a bit under 1 minute. It will take a bit over 1 minute to fill a
>>>> gallon of water.
>>
>>> This doesn't match my experience. Tubs often do not have a much bigger
>>> drain than sinks, and you aren't accounting for hydrostatic pressure.
>>> One gallon in my bathroom sink is at least 8 inches deep at the drain,
>>> and that head makes a difference. And I've done the homework: I took
>>> a plastic cup (Peets, not Starbucks) and a plastic take-out tray,
>>> drilled the same size hole (0.24in) in each, filled them with water.
>>> The cup drained in 30s, the tray took that long *and* an additional 40s
>>> to drain.
>>
>> A bathtub is not a flat tray with a hole drilled in it.
>
>No, it has a 1:60 slope, doesn't it.
>
>> But regardless
>> of your tests, I have still never ever stood ankle deep in a tub while
>> taking a shower unless the stopper was engaged or there was a plug in
>> the bathtub drain. Never. Not once.
>

I find it fascinating that you can flip out the slope factor of a
bathtub!

It sent me to Google and I found where, at:

https://www.bobvila.com/posts/59932-tub-slope

it says:
________________________________________________________
latexia707

06:34AM | 04/08/08
Member Since: 11/01/06
34 lifetime posts
Tub slope
Tags: Plumbing
Hi all!

I have a (simple?) theorical question... What is the very minimal
slope in order to empty a tub?

I know that (in theory) it could be just 1 degree (if you're
patient!)... but in a real world case can it be say 1/8 per foot? 1/16
per foot?

Would the size of the pipe be any concern? a 1 1/4 drain is by code
but what if one uses a 2" or even a 3" pipe? Would air displacement be
too great that it would cause siphoning all the p-traps around a
house?
_________________________________________________________
--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Tony Cooper pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 15:17:56 -0700, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
> wrote:

>> Every day, in
>> many activities. I have a record of at least 15 months of my daily
>> temperature (oral or forehead).
>
> Is there something you're not telling us? The only other person I
> know that did this was doing so in an effort to become pregnant. Not
> that the keeping of the chart was the only thing done to achieve
> pregnancy.
>

Oh, come on, Tony. You know I'm too old for ovulation. And during the
last 15 months, there has been something mentioned in the news from
time to time where a person's temperature has been relevant.

/dps "and sometimes a Dragon at the door to check yours"

--
Killing a mouse was hardly a Nobel Prize-worthy exercise, and Lawrence
went apopleptic when he learned a lousy rodent had peed away all his
precious heavy water.
_The Disappearing Spoon_, Sam Kean

Peter T. Daniels formulated the question :
> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 6:18:02 PM UTC-4, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Remember that the size of the pipe is only part of the equation: the
>> water is fed into the shower head under considerable pressure, provided
>> either by an elevated system source or by pumps or by both, and it
>> flows out of the tub under the pressure of the depth of the water in
>> the tub.
>
> NYC's water pressure is supposedly maintained by the fact that the
> reservoirs, 50+ miles away, are in the Catskill Mountains, at an elevation
> greater than the height of the tallest buildings, so gravity does all the
> work.
>
> But the skyline is still adorned with the picturesque water tanks atop every
> apartment building (and concealed behind cornices in newer construction).
> Is that just redundancy?

In a sense, yes. Probably motivated by interruptions of water flow in
the mains, and perhaps also for fire deluge systems. When everything
is working well in the spring, you fill up the tank while supplying
water to the tenants. When you feel things are un-well and the ducts
haved ducked out, you can still fall for some water.

/dps

--
But happiness cannot be pursued; it must ensue. One must have a reason
to 'be happy.'"
Viktor Frankl

On Tuesday, Lewis queried:
> In message <mn.f3aa7e6487f31a5c.127094@snitoo> Snidely
> <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Snidely submitted this gripping article, maybe on Friday:
>
>>> Were you ever in as bad shape as those using Lake
>>> Powell for a water supply?
>
>> Lewis, you don't seem to be directly affected by Lake Powell, but
>> you're where the conditions are similar, aren't you?
>
> Our problem is that we have an enormous amounts of water, but almost all of
> it belongs to down-stream states using it to water deserts of dry
> prairies.
>
> Colorado contains the headwaters of The Colorado, the Arkansas, and the
> North and South Platte rivers. Almost all of the water leaves the state.
>
> Denver, because it could not really use the Platte river, drilled a
> tunnel system a few hundred miles through the Rocky Mountains to bring
> water that would be destined from the western side of the state into Denver.
>
> If you live in Denver you can generally tell whether you are on Denver
> water or suburban water as the taste difference is noticeable.

Ah, I just found the USGS water site. A lot to digest, but I am
currently chewing on the following:

On Sep 30, 2021 the water storage in Wolford Mountain Resevoir was 70%
of what it was Oct 01, 2020. The minimum in mid-April was a hair below
52% of the Oct 01, 2020 value, and then the spring melt kicked in and
we've reached 57%. We can expect the peak level to be in early June,
when we can judge how much recovery has occurred.

I haven't tried to find the snowpack data to see what the expected
runoff is.

/dps

--
"That’s where I end with this kind of conversation: Language is
crucial, and yet not the answer."
Jonathan Rosa, sociocultural and linguistic anthropologist,
Stanford.,2020

On Wednesday, Snidely queried:
> On Tuesday, Lewis queried:
>> In message <mn.f3aa7e6487f31a5c.127094@snitoo> Snidely
>> <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Snidely submitted this gripping article, maybe on Friday:
>>
>>>> Were you ever in as bad shape as those using Lake Powell for a water
>>>> supply?
>>
>>> Lewis, you don't seem to be directly affected by Lake Powell, but you're
>>> where the conditions are similar, aren't you?
>>
>> Our problem is that we have an enormous amounts of water, but almost all of
>> it belongs to down-stream states using it to water deserts of dry
>> prairies.
>>
>> Colorado contains the headwaters of The Colorado, the Arkansas, and the
>> North and South Platte rivers. Almost all of the water leaves the state.
>>
>> Denver, because it could not really use the Platte river, drilled a
>> tunnel system a few hundred miles through the Rocky Mountains to bring
>> water that would be destined from the western side of the state into
>> Denver.
>>
>> If you live in Denver you can generally tell whether you are on Denver
>> water or suburban water as the taste difference is noticeable.
>
> Ah, I just found the USGS water site.

Ooops, URL omitted. Try
<URL:waterdata.usgs.gov/co/nwis/curent/?type=res&group_key=huc_cd>
as the starting point.

> A lot to digest, but I am currently
> chewing on the following:
>
> On Sep 30, 2021 the water storage in Wolford Mountain Resevoir was 70% of
> what it was Oct 01, 2020. The minimum in mid-April was a hair below 52% of
> the Oct 01, 2020 value, and then the spring melt kicked in and we've reached
> 57%. We can expect the peak level to be in early June, when we can judge how
> much recovery has occurred.
>
> I haven't tried to find the snowpack data to see what the expected runoff is.

/dps "we won't talk about Lake Shasta out here"
(but Juan Browne's blancolirio channel on youtube has a drought
playlist)

--
Rule #0: Don't be on fire.
In case of fire, exit the building before tweeting about it.
(Sighting reported by Adam F)

Monday, Paul Wolff murmurred ...

> Polar co-ordinates don't help.

Rather, they are only sufficient for plotting the inputs. Two more
axes are require to also plot the outputs (temperature and flow rate).

> Why does Snidely want me to think of
> them? Yes, rotation is measured as an angle. but pulling the knob in/out
> along the axis of rotation isn't 'r',

I am curious as to how you solve puzzles which involve transformations.

Pulling the knob produces a displacement along an axis which in the
conventional 3-space view of the world would probably be labeled 'x'.
But 'r' is also a displacement, and polar coordinates describe some
problem spaces better than xyz does. In this case, a transformation of
the x value to the r value is the obvious one, and for our purpose the
transformation is just r = x.

> which on the contrary is a radial
> displacement. Where did such a design come into this thread? No-one has
> introduced such a shower control here yet, have they?

Don't patent applications have drawings and descriptions of operation?

/dps

--
The presence of this syntax results from the fact that SQLite is really
a Tcl extension that has escaped into the wild.
<http://www.sqlite.org/lang_expr.html>

On 5/4/2022 8:07 AM, Lewis wrote:
> CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:

>> The stand I got for it (I decided I didn't want to drive nails
>> into the tree) has a "squirrel baffle"; so we shall see how things
>> work out. I plan to go on feeding them and singing to them -
>> sometimes in Spanish. They don't seem to mind.

> I recall a comic strip that I cut out of the newspaper and sent to
> my mother, who's had a lifteime battle with the squirrels. Snce I cut
> it out of a newspaper it must have been at least 30 years ago.

> Anyway, it showed a free standing bird feeder with baffles above an
> below and possible a sign that said "Squirrel Proof Bird Feeder"

> Then it showed a squirrel in a top hat and cape, then a cloud of
> smoke with a BAMF! or similar, and then the squirrel eating all the
> seeds out of the bird feeder.

They are talented critters, but not a bit kind to each other. Each
against all.

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 6:11:03 PM UTC-4, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
> Just this Wednesday, CDB explained that ...

> > You could be talking about the tap in my bathroom sink. It is a lever
> > that you raise to start the flow and raise or lower to control the
> > water-volume. You move the lever horizontally in about a 90-degree arc
> > to control the mixture of hot and cold water that is admitted. Two
> > axes, one horizontal for volume and one vertical for mixture. The
> > horizontal axis turns side-to-side with the lever's movement around the
> > vertical axis.
>
> In this case, you have two axes in both the physical and the functional
> sense.

And another one to grind.

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 1:18:29 AM UTC-4, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels formulated the question :
> > On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 6:18:02 PM UTC-4, snide...@gmail.com wrote:

> >> Remember that the size of the pipe is only part of the equation: the
> >> water is fed into the shower head under considerable pressure, provided
> >> either by an elevated system source or by pumps or by both, and it
> >> flows out of the tub under the pressure of the depth of the water in
> >> the tub.
> > NYC's water pressure is supposedly maintained by the fact that the
> > reservoirs, 50+ miles away, are in the Catskill Mountains, at an elevation
> > greater than the height of the tallest buildings, so gravity does all the
> > work.
> > But the skyline is still adorned with the picturesque water tanks atop every
> > apartment building (and concealed behind cornices in newer construction).
> > Is that just redundancy?
>
> In a sense, yes. Probably motivated by interruptions of water flow in
> the mains, and perhaps also for fire deluge systems. When everything
> is working well in the spring, you fill up the tank while supplying
> water to the tenants. When you feel things are un-well and the ducts
> haved ducked out, you can still fall for some water.

Or the developers who threw up tenements at a rate that couldn't keep
up with immigration didn't remember their fluid dynamics training ...
or NYC was still relying on the Croton Reservoir in Westchester County,
which is at a lower elevation.

60-odd years ago, there were picnic grounds at the base of the Croton
Reservoir dam. It was somewhat intimidating.