Le 21/05/2022 à 16:32, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:16:34 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
>>
>> I have already replied to that point. "... it isn't a question of
>> learning to talk like an American, but of observing how Americans talk"
>> - <news:t622ll$v3c$3...@gioia.aioe.org> on 22/05/18.
>
> So you still do not understand that we are not talking about Brits-on-the-street,
> but ACTORS attempting to talk like Americans.

You have talked about that a lot. I don't know why. My remarks were
about the differences between everyday American and everyday English,
which are a matter of observation, not imitation.

>>> [...] what you said is that a couple of expressions were Eastpondian
>>> versus equivalents in Westpondian. One was "fine" vs. "good," one
>>> was "I've eaten" vs. "I already ate." You were simply wrong to claim that
>>> the supposed "Eastpondian" ones don't occur in "Westpondian."
>>
>> I have made no such claim. If you think I have, then please indicate the
>> message in which you think I made it and quote the passage.
>
> On May 15, at 1:29 am (my time), you wrote
>
> "in everyday speech it seems there's hardly a sentence that is the same
> in Eastpondia and Westpondia. Take verb use, for instance: I've eaten vs
> I ate already etc.. Or the question "How are you?", to which the answer
> is either an adverb ("Fine") or an adjective ("Good")."
>
> How is that not EXACTLY what I said it is?

Actually, what I said was: "Formal English and formal American are often
very close, barring the odd spelling difference; but in everyday speech
it seems there's hardly a sentence that is the same in Eastpondia and
Westpondia. Take verb use, for instance: I've eaten vs I ate already
etc.. Or the question 'How are you?', to which the answer is either an
adverb ('Fine') or an adjective ('Good')" -
<news:t5q33b$15dc$1@gioia.aioe.org>.

That was a general observation, not an absolute one, not a claim that
certain terms don't occur. Note the phrases "Formal English and formal
American are often very close" and "it seems there's hardly a sentence
that is the same". There's no exclusion there; the assertions are fuzzy.

I acknowledge that everything I write is only a draft, and can always be
improved. I find being precise hard - language is hard; I suspect
everyone finds it so, and the more one knows the harder it is in a way,
because there are more possibilities. But you can take it that when I
say something, I try to make it as accurate as possible.

I am going to end this exchange here. I have tried to explain my
position to you on several occasions, apparently to no avail. To
continue would no doubt be as wearisome to you as it would be to me.

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:01:14 AM UTC-6, Paul Wolff wrote:
> On Sat, 21 May 2022, at 01:57:44, Sam Plusnet posted:
> >On 20-May-22 20:40, Paul Wolff wrote:
> >> On Fri, 20 May 2022, at 19:31:44, Sam Plusnet posted:
> >>> On 20-May-22 2:19, Peter Moylan wrote:
> >>>> On 19/05/22 22:16, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>> Last night, watching a TV program, two different women said "oh em
> >>>>> gee". The program is a Canadian production set in Toronto.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> They were mothers at a party for one mother's child's first
> >>>>> birthday.
> >>>> Social media - Usenet and its successors - are to blame for this. In
> >>>> online discussions it's natural to create abbreviations for common
> >>>> phrases. Eventually newcomers arrive who have little or no knowledge of
> >>>> the original phrase, and know only the abbreviation.
> >>>> It's very possible that some of the OMG users have no idea that gods
> >>>> were originally being invoked.
> >>>
> >>> OK.
> >>>
> >> O Krikey?
> >
> >Was the telegraph the 'social media' of its day?
> >
> >It certainly 'did' abbreviations - of one sort or another.
> >
> >"How Old Cary Grant?"
> >
> "Fine". (We go full circle.)
....

The story I read in a book by Nigel Rees was that a reporter wired Cary Grant's
agent: "HOW OLD CARY GRANT". Grant saw the telegram and answered it
himself: "OLD CARY GRANT FINE HOW YOU".

--
Jerry Friedman

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:32:05 AM UTC-6, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Sat, 21 May 2022 06:29:54 -0400
> CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 5/21/2022 2:41 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> > > Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >> Paul Wolff wrote:
> > >>> Peter T. Daniels posted:
> > >>>> Paul Wolff wrote:
> > >> ...
> >
> > >>>>> It seems to me that 'how' in 'how are you?' is an
> > >>>>> interrogative adverb, so any good one-word answer must have
> > >>>>> adverbial force.
> >
> > >>>> Good grief.
> >
> > >>>> "How are you?" "Poorly." That's considered
> > >>>> dialectal/nonstandard.
> >
> > >>>> "How's the tea?" "Tepidly."
> >
> > >>> Taste the tea, I pray you, as I pour'd it to you, tepidly on the
> > >>> tongue; but if you gulp it, as many of our players do, I had as
> > >>> lief the ale-conner quaffed my brew.
> >
> > >> Brew, brew, brew your pot At one for half-past three.
> > > Issat the time already?
> > >> Tepidly, tepidly, tepidly, tepidly, Not my cup of tea.
> >
> > > Whot, no buttered scones?
> >
> > Not till Wednesday.

> Memory failed me; it was honey I was longing for.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is_There_Honey_Still_for_Tea%3F
>
> And Teatime is anytime, as it's permanently 2:45pm in Grantchester. (Or have they fixed the clock already?)

I will brook no such errors. A quick scan will show you that it's 3:10.

--
Jerry Friedman

On Sat, 21 May 2022 09:06:26 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
<jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:01:14 AM UTC-6, Paul Wolff wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 May 2022, at 01:57:44, Sam Plusnet posted:
>> >On 20-May-22 20:40, Paul Wolff wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 20 May 2022, at 19:31:44, Sam Plusnet posted:
>> >>> On 20-May-22 2:19, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> >>>> On 19/05/22 22:16, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>> Last night, watching a TV program, two different women said "oh em
>> >>>>> gee". The program is a Canadian production set in Toronto.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> They were mothers at a party for one mother's child's first
>> >>>>> birthday.
>> >>>> Social media - Usenet and its successors - are to blame for this. In
>> >>>> online discussions it's natural to create abbreviations for common
>> >>>> phrases. Eventually newcomers arrive who have little or no knowledge of
>> >>>> the original phrase, and know only the abbreviation.
>> >>>> It's very possible that some of the OMG users have no idea that gods
>> >>>> were originally being invoked.
>> >>>
>> >>> OK.
>> >>>
>> >> O Krikey?
>> >
>> >Was the telegraph the 'social media' of its day?
>> >
>> >It certainly 'did' abbreviations - of one sort or another.
>> >
>> >"How Old Cary Grant?"
>> >
>> "Fine". (We go full circle.)
>...
>
>The story I read in a book by Nigel Rees was that a reporter wired Cary Grant's
>agent: "HOW OLD CARY GRANT". Grant saw the telegram and answered it
>himself: "OLD CARY GRANT FINE HOW YOU".

A great answer!

On 21/05/2022 17:24, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:32:05 AM UTC-6, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 06:29:54 -0400
>> CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/21/2022 2:41 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>>>> Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> Paul Wolff wrote:
>>>>>> Peter T. Daniels posted:
>>>>>>> Paul Wolff wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>
>>>>>>>> It seems to me that 'how' in 'how are you?' is an
>>>>>>>> interrogative adverb, so any good one-word answer must have
>>>>>>>> adverbial force.
>>>
>>>>>>> Good grief.
>>>
>>>>>>> "How are you?" "Poorly." That's considered
>>>>>>> dialectal/nonstandard.
>>>
>>>>>>> "How's the tea?" "Tepidly."
>>>
>>>>>> Taste the tea, I pray you, as I pour'd it to you, tepidly on the
>>>>>> tongue; but if you gulp it, as many of our players do, I had as
>>>>>> lief the ale-conner quaffed my brew.
>>>
>>>>> Brew, brew, brew your pot At one for half-past three.
>>>> Issat the time already?
>>>>> Tepidly, tepidly, tepidly, tepidly, Not my cup of tea.
>>>
>>>> Whot, no buttered scones?
>>>
>>> Not till Wednesday.
>
>> Memory failed me; it was honey I was longing for.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is_There_Honey_Still_for_Tea%3F
>>
>> And Teatime is anytime, as it's permanently 2:45pm in Grantchester. (Or have they fixed the clock already?)
>
> I will brook no such errors. A quick scan will show you that it's 3:10.
>
Is that allowing for inflation?

--
Ray
UK

On Sat, 21 May 2022, at 10:22:44, Ken Blake posted:
>On Sat, 21 May 2022 09:06:26 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
><jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:01:14 AM UTC-6, Paul Wolff wrote:
>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022, at 01:57:44, Sam Plusnet posted:
>>> >On 20-May-22 20:40, Paul Wolff wrote:
>>> >> On Fri, 20 May 2022, at 19:31:44, Sam Plusnet posted:
>>> >>> On 20-May-22 2:19, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> >>>> On 19/05/22 22:16, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>>> Last night, watching a TV program, two different women said "oh em
>>> >>>>> gee". The program is a Canadian production set in Toronto.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> They were mothers at a party for one mother's child's first
>>> >>>>> birthday.
>>> >>>> Social media - Usenet and its successors - are to blame for this. In
>>> >>>> online discussions it's natural to create abbreviations for common
>>> >>>> phrases. Eventually newcomers arrive who have little or no
>>> >>>>knowledge of
>>> >>>> the original phrase, and know only the abbreviation.
>>> >>>> It's very possible that some of the OMG users have no idea that gods
>>> >>>> were originally being invoked.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> OK.
>>> >>>
>>> >> O Krikey?
>>> >
>>> >Was the telegraph the 'social media' of its day?
>>> >
>>> >It certainly 'did' abbreviations - of one sort or another.
>>> >
>>> >"How Old Cary Grant?"
>>> >
>>> "Fine". (We go full circle.)
>>...
>>
>>The story I read in a book by Nigel Rees was that a reporter wired
>>Cary Grant's
>>agent: "HOW OLD CARY GRANT". Grant saw the telegram and answered it
>>himself: "OLD CARY GRANT FINE HOW YOU".
>
>A great answer!

But even in telegraphese, the story was too wordy for my purposes.
--
Paul

On Sat, 21 May 2022, at 07:29:58, Peter T. Daniels posted:
>On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:32:42 PM UTC-4, Paul Wolff wrote:
>> On Fri, 20 May 2022, at 13:09:44, Jerry Friedman posted:
>> >On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:35:27 AM UTC-6, Paul Wolff wrote:
>
>> >> I'm interested in ethical issues anywhere. Take a world view, and see
>> >> where the stories are coming from. The reporting is grossly unbalanced.
>> >> I thought it wholly disproportionate for the question whether abortion
>> >> falls under the Constitution or under State law in the USA to be
>> >> promoted to the top item of news locally in Britain.
>> >Well, in practical terms, it means abortion will become illegal, always or
>> >almost always, in eleven states as soon as the decision is announced,
>> >and in another fifteen or so shortly afterwards, IIRC.
>>
>> So between a quarter and a half of all US states will join how many
>> other states worldwide where that is currently true? [Rhetorical
>> question for effect, not for the answer, which actually I do not know,
>> but I suspect it's not the number anyone first thinks of.]
>>
>> Looking at it another way, which wasn't even mentioned in the BBC news,
>> our liberal western democratic values ought to applaud democracy in
>> action, should they not? Or should we stamp on democracy when it makes
>> the wrong decision. Tricky one, that. I offer N. Ireland in evidence.
>
>In the latest (NPR/PBS/NORC) poll, 64% of Americans say that abortion
>should be legal in all or most cases. [NORC is the National Opinion Research
>Center, a U of Chicago outfit]
>
>The problem is that (I think this is how a senator put it on one of the Sunday
>shows last week) 75% of the senators represent 44% of the people.
>
>> >> And it's still undecided, by the way.
>> >It's now clear how the decision will go.
>>
>> We've been spared the updates, thank goodness.
>
>No "updates." The decision will be announced at the end of June or the
>beginning of July -- they always save the biggest ones for last. We don't
>know how much of Alito's venom had already been taken out between
>the writing in February and the publication in May. Or in what way the
>public reaction will influence any further changes.

I thought the leaker might make a habit of it. Still, no court judgment
is a judgment until it's been delivered, and no point in crying over the
milk before it's been spilt.
--
Paul

Hibou <h.i@b.ou> writes:
>everything I write is only a draft,

All of the transient, is parable, only.

On Sat, 21 May 2022 18:44:22 +0100, Paul Wolff
<bounceme@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:

>On Sat, 21 May 2022, at 07:29:58, Peter T. Daniels posted:
>>On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:32:42 PM UTC-4, Paul Wolff wrote:
>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022, at 13:09:44, Jerry Friedman posted:
>>> >On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:35:27 AM UTC-6, Paul Wolff wrote:
>>
>>> >> I'm interested in ethical issues anywhere. Take a world view, and see
>>> >> where the stories are coming from. The reporting is grossly unbalanced.
>>> >> I thought it wholly disproportionate for the question whether abortion
>>> >> falls under the Constitution or under State law in the USA to be
>>> >> promoted to the top item of news locally in Britain.
>>> >Well, in practical terms, it means abortion will become illegal, always or
>>> >almost always, in eleven states as soon as the decision is announced,
>>> >and in another fifteen or so shortly afterwards, IIRC.
>>>
>>> So between a quarter and a half of all US states will join how many
>>> other states worldwide where that is currently true? [Rhetorical
>>> question for effect, not for the answer, which actually I do not know,
>>> but I suspect it's not the number anyone first thinks of.]
>>>
>>> Looking at it another way, which wasn't even mentioned in the BBC news,
>>> our liberal western democratic values ought to applaud democracy in
>>> action, should they not? Or should we stamp on democracy when it makes
>>> the wrong decision. Tricky one, that. I offer N. Ireland in evidence.
>>
>>In the latest (NPR/PBS/NORC) poll, 64% of Americans say that abortion
>>should be legal in all or most cases. [NORC is the National Opinion Research
>>Center, a U of Chicago outfit]
>>
>>The problem is that (I think this is how a senator put it on one of the Sunday
>>shows last week) 75% of the senators represent 44% of the people.
>>
>>> >> And it's still undecided, by the way.
>>> >It's now clear how the decision will go.
>>>
>>> We've been spared the updates, thank goodness.
>>
>>No "updates." The decision will be announced at the end of June or the
>>beginning of July -- they always save the biggest ones for last. We don't
>>know how much of Alito's venom had already been taken out between
>>the writing in February and the publication in May. Or in what way the
>>public reaction will influence any further changes.
>
>I thought the leaker might make a habit of it. Still, no court judgment
>is a judgment until it's been delivered, and no point in crying over the
>milk before it's been spilt.

There are two theories of why the leaker leaked.

One is that the leaker is in favor of Roe v Wade being overturned, and
wanted Alito's draft to be public to lock in Alito's position. In
this theory, Alito can't soften his position later bowing to pressure.

The other theory is that leaker doesn't want Roe v Wade to be
overturned, and leaked the draft as a means of mobilizing opposition
to Alito's opinion in the draft.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 11:33:43 AM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 22/05/22 00:29, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:32:42 PM UTC-4, Paul Wolff wrote:
> > In the latest (NPR/PBS/NORC) poll, 64% of Americans say that abortion
> > should be legal in all or most cases. [NORC is the National Opinion Research
> > Center, a U of Chicago outfit]
> > The problem is that (I think this is how a senator put it on one of the Sunday
> > shows last week) 75% of the senators represent 44% of the people.
> >>>> And it's still undecided, by the way.
> >>> It's now clear how the decision will go.
> >> We've been spared the updates, thank goodness.

> Is it possible to put this in national terms? That is, %% of the judges
> represent %s of the people.

In some states, judges are elected. Federal judges (incl. SCOTUS
justices) are appointed then confirmed by the Senate. So, no.

I think all 6 current rightwing justices were appointed by Republicans.
Until McConnell, confirmations of judges used to be (near) unanimous,
but judge candidates used to be suggested by the state's senators, so
they tended to reflect the people they were judging.

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 11:41:06 AM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 22/05/22 00:49, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:33:19 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> >> On 20/05/22 22:47, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:39:19 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> >>>> Le jeudi 19 mai 2022 à 23:09:49 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> >>>>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 4:53:55 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:

> >>>>>> But ptd seems to think that "kaff" is a possible BrE pronunciation
> >>>>>> in "Le Café" (see upthread), whereas it's not.
> >>>>> I'll ask again. Where the hell do you see "Le Café"?
> >>>> My mistake, it was "The Cafe", but that doesn't change anything
> >>>> as "café" and "cafe" are pronounced the same , i.e. as "kaffay"..
> >>> In French.
> >>> In American English.
> >>> Not necessarily, however, in British English.
> >> Yes, in British English too.
> >> The word "caff" has a different spelling.
> > When would they have occasion to spell it?
>
> When they spell it. Have you not noticed the "caf" and "caff" in BrE
> sources?

I guess I don't read the sort of source such things would appear in.

Or else the spell it <cafe> and assume the reader knows the relevant dialect.

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 11:41:44 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> Le samedi 21 mai 2022 à 17:24:25 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 4:48:18 AM UTC-4, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> > > On Sat, 21 May 2022 11:33:13 +1000
> > > Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> > > > On 20/05/22 22:47, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:39:19 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> > > > >> Le jeudi 19 mai 2022 à 23:09:49 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > > > >>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 4:53:55 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:

> > > > >>>> But ptd seems to think that "kaff" is a possible BrE pronunciation
> > > > >>>> in "Le Café" (see upthread), whereas it's not.
> > > > >>> I'll ask again. Where the hell do you see "Le Café"?
> > > > >> My mistake, it was "The Cafe", but that doesn't change anything
> > > > >> as "café" and "cafe" are pronounced the same , i.e. as "kaffay".
> > > > > In French.
>
> Wrong - "cafe" doesn't exist in French and if it did, the -e would
> be silent.

? Café is pronounced kaffay in French.

> > > > > In American English.

Le samedi 21 mai 2022 à 20:34:01 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 11:41:44 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> > Le samedi 21 mai 2022 à 17:24:25 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 4:48:18 AM UTC-4, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> > > > On Sat, 21 May 2022 11:33:13 +1000
> > > > Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> > > > > On 20/05/22 22:47, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:39:19 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> > > > > >> Le jeudi 19 mai 2022 à 23:09:49 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > > > > >>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 4:53:55 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>
> > > > > >>>> But ptd seems to think that "kaff" is a possible BrE pronunciation
> > > > > >>>> in "Le Café" (see upthread), whereas it's not.
> > > > > >>> I'll ask again. Where the hell do you see "Le Café"?
> > > > > >> My mistake, it was "The Cafe", but that doesn't change anything
> > > > > >> as "café" and "cafe" are pronounced the same , i.e. as "kaffay".
> > > > > > In French.
> >
> > Wrong - "cafe" doesn't exist in French and if it did, the -e would
> > be silent.
> ? Café is pronounced kaffay in French.

I said:

|"café" and "cafe" are pronounced the same , i.e. as "kaffay".

You answered:

|in French.

Therefore, I repeat:

Wrong - "cafe" doesn't exist in French and if it did, the -e would
be silent.

(I wrote "cafe" not "café", in case you didn't notice.)

>
> > > > > > In American English.

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:00:13 PM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
> Le 21/05/2022 à 16:32, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:16:34 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
> >> I have already replied to that point. "... it isn't a question of
> >> learning to talk like an American, but of observing how Americans talk"
> >> - <news:t622ll$v3c$3...@gioia.aioe.org> on 22/05/18.
> > So you still do not understand that we are not talking about Brits-on-the-street,
> > but ACTORS attempting to talk like Americans.
>
> You have talked about that a lot. I don't know why. My remarks were
> about the differences between everyday American and everyday English,
> which are a matter of observation, not imitation.

I've just gone all the way back to the beginning of this thread and looked
at every message. On May 16, 2022, 9:53:20 AM (5 days ago), I introduced
the topic (one of my favorites), as follows:

"Both of your examples suggest that AmE does not admit the forms
you label as "Eastpondian." I must conclude that you've learned your
AmE from British screenwriters who have assimilated a certain list
of phrases that Brits consider to be Americanisms, and pepper the
speech of their "American" characters with them -- perhaps to
counter the fact that the majority of British actors who are called
upon to portray American characters haven't the slightest idea
how to pronounce American-English vowels.

"It's nearly miraculous that such actors as Anthony Hopkins and
Hugh Laurie have managed to transcend that limitation of British
dialect training."

Your direct response to that, on May 17, 2022, 2:10:28 AM (4 days ago)
[my time] was to change the subject:

"All British people who do not hide themselves away in caves and cellars
are continuously exposed to American speech. Most of the films and
series on TV are American. British films, past and present, normally
include at least one American because otherwise they would not sell in
America. American experts are routinely interviewed on the radio (the
BBC sounds more and more like Voice of America). American reporters
appear in the news, American comedians in quiz shows, and so on and so
on. There are Americans living in Britain (~166,000 in 2021 (Statista) -
one of them in my immediate circle). We are saturated in American speech."

And that's why several people intervened to remind you that being
_familiar_ with an accent from hearing it does not automatically
enable them to credibly speak with that accent.

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:10:34 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sat, 21 May 2022 18:44:22 +0100, Paul Wolff
> <boun...@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
> >On Sat, 21 May 2022, at 07:29:58, Peter T. Daniels posted:
> >>On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:32:42 PM UTC-4, Paul Wolff wrote:

> >>> Looking at it another way, which wasn't even mentioned in the BBC news,
> >>> our liberal western democratic values ought to applaud democracy in
> >>> action, should they not? Or should we stamp on democracy when it makes
> >>> the wrong decision. Tricky one, that. I offer N. Ireland in evidence.
> >>In the latest (NPR/PBS/NORC) poll, 64% of Americans say that abortion
> >>should be legal in all or most cases. [NORC is the National Opinion Research
> >>Center, a U of Chicago outfit]
> >>The problem is that (I think this is how a senator put it on one of the Sunday
> >>shows last week) 75% of the senators represent 44% of the people.
> >>> >> And it's still undecided, by the way.
> >>> >It's now clear how the decision will go.
> >>> We've been spared the updates, thank goodness.
> >>No "updates." The decision will be announced at the end of June or the
> >>beginning of July -- they always save the biggest ones for last. We don't
> >>know how much of Alito's venom had already been taken out between
> >>the writing in February and the publication in May. Or in what way the
> >>public reaction will influence any further changes.
> >I thought the leaker might make a habit of it. Still, no court judgment
> >is a judgment until it's been delivered, and no point in crying over the
> >milk before it's been spilt.
>
> There are two theories of why the leaker leaked.
>
> One is that the leaker is in favor of Roe v Wade being overturned, and
> wanted Alito's draft to be public to lock in Alito's position. In
> this theory, Alito can't soften his position later bowing to pressure.

Rather, to keep any of the other four from being seen to switch their position.
Note that the Chief is not among the assenters.
> The other theory is that leaker doesn't want Roe v Wade to be
> overturned, and leaked the draft as a means of mobilizing opposition
> to Alito's opinion in the draft.

That, at least, is working.

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 3:03:19 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> Le samedi 21 mai 2022 à 20:34:01 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 11:41:44 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> > > Le samedi 21 mai 2022 à 17:24:25 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 4:48:18 AM UTC-4, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> > > > > On Sat, 21 May 2022 11:33:13 +1000
> > > > > Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> > > > > > On 20/05/22 22:47, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:39:19 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> > > > > > >> Le jeudi 19 mai 2022 à 23:09:49 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > > > > > >>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 4:53:55 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> >
> > > > > > >>>> But ptd seems to think that "kaff" is a possible BrE pronunciation
> > > > > > >>>> in "Le Café" (see upthread), whereas it's not.
> > > > > > >>> I'll ask again. Where the hell do you see "Le Café"?
> > > > > > >> My mistake, it was "The Cafe", but that doesn't change anything
> > > > > > >> as "café" and "cafe" are pronounced the same , i.e. as "kaffay".
> > > > > > > In French.
> > >
> > > Wrong - "cafe" doesn't exist in French and if it did, the -e would
> > > be silent.
> > ? Café is pronounced kaffay in French.
> I said:
>
> |"café" and "cafe" are pronounced the same , i.e. as "kaffay".
> You answered:
>
> |in French.
>
> Therefore, I repeat:
> Wrong - "cafe" doesn't exist in French and if it did, the -e would
> be silent.

You couldn't figure out that the statement didn't apply to the non-French word??

> (I wrote "cafe" not "café", in case you didn't notice.)
>
> >
> > > > > > > In American English.

On Sat, 21 May 2022 11:32:00 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 11:41:06 AM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 22/05/22 00:49, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:33:19 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> >> On 20/05/22 22:47, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> >>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:39:19 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>> >>>> Le jeudi 19 mai 2022 à 23:09:49 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>> >>>>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 4:53:55 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>
>> >>>>>> But ptd seems to think that "kaff" is a possible BrE pronunciation
>> >>>>>> in "Le Café" (see upthread), whereas it's not.
>> >>>>> I'll ask again. Where the hell do you see "Le Café"?
>> >>>> My mistake, it was "The Cafe", but that doesn't change anything
>> >>>> as "café" and "cafe" are pronounced the same , i.e. as "kaffay".
>> >>> In French.
>> >>> In American English.
>> >>> Not necessarily, however, in British English.
>> >> Yes, in British English too.
>> >> The word "caff" has a different spelling.
>> > When would they have occasion to spell it?
>>
>> When they spell it. Have you not noticed the "caf" and "caff" in BrE
>> sources?
>
>I guess I don't read the sort of source such things would appear in.
>
>Or else the spell it <cafe> and assume the reader knows the relevant dialect.

This is how many posts, now, you've made on a subject that you are
aware you know nothing about?

https://www.google.com/books/edition/City_Street_and_Citizen/ooeFOl1xKPsC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=caff&pg=PA62&printsec=frontcover

From a book written by an Urban Ethnographer at LSE.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

On 21-May-22 1:54, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 21/05/2022 1:00 am, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 5:22:08 PM UTC-6, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Friday, Paul Wolff murmurred ...
>>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022, at 06:41:27, Peter T. Daniels posted:
>> ...
>>
>>>>> OED does a truly lousy job with "grapheme" -- the definition it offers
>>>>> doesn't even cover the examples it gives. There's a paragraph about
>>>>> it in my book.
>>>>
>>>> Forgive me, but I had to smile here. I'm very interested in
>>>> graphene, so much
>>>> so that I don't need the OED to define it for me. Or was that not a
>>>> typo, but
>>>> something else? A graphic meme, perhaps. And I'm still smiling to
>>>> myself at
>>>> the thought.
>>
>>> Not a typo, a different word. You read of phonemes here, which are
>>> sound pieces of a word (very roughly, syllables as spoken).
>>
>> The linguists will be along soon, but that would be less rough if you'd
>> said "sounds" instead of "syllables".
>>
>>> Do you not
>>> see that "grapheme" is a corresponding word referring to writing?
>>
>> I actually wouldn't mind a bit of discussion of graphemes, to the extent
>> that they exist.
>
>
> Thus quoth Wiktionary: "In linguistics, a grapheme is the smallest
> functional unit of a writing system."
>
> So for English that'd be the full stop.
>
>
Or the pointed end of a steel nibbed pen.

Taking the pen, ink and paper to be the complete writing system.

--
Sam Plusnet

On Sat, 21 May 2022 14:20:48 +0100
Paul Wolff <bounceme@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:

> On Sat, 21 May 2022, at 13:00:39, Janet posted:
> >In article <ZV0QShqB1AiiFAxd@wolff.co.uk>,
> >bounceme@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk says...
> >>
> >> >but I am somewhat
> >> >surprised that you feel some item that pertains to another country,
> >> >even it it doesn't directly affect the UK, gets coverage in the UK.
> >>
> >> No, that's not my objection at all. My objection ("puzzle" as I
> >> characterised it) was that some item that pertains to another country
> >> was mysteriously elevated above all the other news events in the whole
> >> wide world to be the principal headline national news item one morning
> >> above anything that actually affects the BBC's own home country.
> >
> >Perhaps it's hard to imagine outside UK, but here's how BBC NEWS
> >operates at home in Britain .
> >
> > First, the BBC News reports world news headlines
> >
> > Then, the BBC News reports British news headlines.

I'm not sure about that. sure, that tends to be the news *item* order, but the headline can often be "Prime Minister fined for breaking Lockdown", rather than "small earthquake in Peru, not many dead"
> >
> > Then, the BBC reports UK regional/local news.
> >
> Not a bad plan, really. Arguably it's a bit elitist, but hey, nothing
> wrong with that, as long as BBC income holds up. A difficult question
> does remain, which is how those headlines are to be selected from all
> other world or British headlines.
> --
> Paul

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On 21-May-22 18:41, musika wrote:
> On 21/05/2022 17:24, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:32:05 AM UTC-6, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 06:29:54 -0400
>>> CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/21/2022 2:41 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>>>>> Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Paul Wolff wrote:
>>>>>>> Peter T. Daniels posted:
>>>>>>>> Paul Wolff wrote:
>>>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It seems to me that 'how' in 'how are you?' is an
>>>>>>>>> interrogative adverb, so any good one-word answer must have
>>>>>>>>> adverbial force.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Good grief.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> "How are you?" "Poorly." That's considered
>>>>>>>> dialectal/nonstandard.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> "How's the tea?" "Tepidly."
>>>>
>>>>>>> Taste the tea, I pray you, as I pour'd it to you, tepidly on the
>>>>>>> tongue; but if you gulp it, as many of our players do, I had as
>>>>>>> lief the ale-conner quaffed my brew.
>>>>
>>>>>> Brew, brew, brew your pot At one for half-past three.
>>>>> Issat the time already?
>>>>>> Tepidly, tepidly, tepidly, tepidly, Not my cup of tea.
>>>>
>>>>> Whot, no buttered scones?
>>>>
>>>> Not till Wednesday.
>>
>>> Memory failed me; it was honey I was longing for.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is_There_Honey_Still_for_Tea%3F
>>>
>>> And Teatime is anytime, as it's permanently 2:45pm in Grantchester.
>>> (Or have they fixed the clock already?)
>>
>> I will brook no such errors.  A quick scan will show you that it's 3:10.
>>
> Is that allowing for inflation?
>
Allowing for time dilation on the clock dial.

--
Sam Plusnet

On Sat, 21 May 2022 09:24:48 -0700 (PDT)
Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:32:05 AM UTC-6, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> > On Sat, 21 May 2022 06:29:54 -0400
> > CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On 5/21/2022 2:41 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> > > > Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >> Paul Wolff wrote:
> > > >>> Peter T. Daniels posted:
> > > >>>> Paul Wolff wrote:
> > > >> ...
> > >
> > > >>>>> It seems to me that 'how' in 'how are you?' is an
> > > >>>>> interrogative adverb, so any good one-word answer must have
> > > >>>>> adverbial force.
> > >
> > > >>>> Good grief.
> > >
> > > >>>> "How are you?" "Poorly." That's considered
> > > >>>> dialectal/nonstandard.
> > >
> > > >>>> "How's the tea?" "Tepidly."
> > >
> > > >>> Taste the tea, I pray you, as I pour'd it to you, tepidly on the
> > > >>> tongue; but if you gulp it, as many of our players do, I had as
> > > >>> lief the ale-conner quaffed my brew.
> > >
> > > >> Brew, brew, brew your pot At one for half-past three.
> > > > Issat the time already?
> > > >> Tepidly, tepidly, tepidly, tepidly, Not my cup of tea.
> > >
> > > > Whot, no buttered scones?
> > >
> > > Not till Wednesday.
>
> > Memory failed me; it was honey I was longing for.
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is_There_Honey_Still_for_Tea%3F
> >
> > And Teatime is anytime, as it's permanently 2:45pm in Grantchester. (Or have they fixed the clock already?)
>
> I will brook no such errors. A quick scan will show you that it's 3:10.
>
My poor recollection indeed. Where am I? Didn't I order a cup of tea?

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On Sat, 21 May 2022 09:24:48 -0700 (PDT)
Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:32:05 AM UTC-6, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> > On Sat, 21 May 2022 06:29:54 -0400
> > CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On 5/21/2022 2:41 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> > > > Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >> Paul Wolff wrote:
> > > >>> Peter T. Daniels posted:
> > > >>>> Paul Wolff wrote:
> > > >> ...
> > >
> > > >>>>> It seems to me that 'how' in 'how are you?' is an
> > > >>>>> interrogative adverb, so any good one-word answer must have
> > > >>>>> adverbial force.
> > >
> > > >>>> Good grief.
> > >
> > > >>>> "How are you?" "Poorly." That's considered
> > > >>>> dialectal/nonstandard.
> > >
> > > >>>> "How's the tea?" "Tepidly."
> > >
> > > >>> Taste the tea, I pray you, as I pour'd it to you, tepidly on the
> > > >>> tongue; but if you gulp it, as many of our players do, I had as
> > > >>> lief the ale-conner quaffed my brew.
> > >
> > > >> Brew, brew, brew your pot At one for half-past three.
> > > > Issat the time already?
> > > >> Tepidly, tepidly, tepidly, tepidly, Not my cup of tea.
> > >
> > > > Whot, no buttered scones?
> > >
> > > Not till Wednesday.
>
> > Memory failed me; it was honey I was longing for.
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is_There_Honey_Still_for_Tea%3F
> >
> > And Teatime is anytime, as it's permanently 2:45pm in Grantchester. (Or have they fixed the clock already?)
>
> I will brook no such errors. A quick scan will show you that it's 3:10.
>
Well a more substantial stare gave me 2:50.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On 21-May-22 17:06, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:01:14 AM UTC-6, Paul Wolff wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 May 2022, at 01:57:44, Sam Plusnet posted:
>>> On 20-May-22 20:40, Paul Wolff wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022, at 19:31:44, Sam Plusnet posted:
>>>>> On 20-May-22 2:19, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>>> On 19/05/22 22:16, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Last night, watching a TV program, two different women said "oh em
>>>>>>> gee". The program is a Canadian production set in Toronto.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They were mothers at a party for one mother's child's first
>>>>>>> birthday.
>>>>>> Social media - Usenet and its successors - are to blame for this. In
>>>>>> online discussions it's natural to create abbreviations for common
>>>>>> phrases. Eventually newcomers arrive who have little or no knowledge of
>>>>>> the original phrase, and know only the abbreviation.
>>>>>> It's very possible that some of the OMG users have no idea that gods
>>>>>> were originally being invoked.
>>>>>
>>>>> OK.
>>>>>
>>>> O Krikey?
>>>
>>> Was the telegraph the 'social media' of its day?
>>>
>>> It certainly 'did' abbreviations - of one sort or another.
>>>
>>> "How Old Cary Grant?"
>>>
>> "Fine". (We go full circle.)
> ...
>
> The story I read in a book by Nigel Rees was that a reporter wired Cary Grant's
> agent: "HOW OLD CARY GRANT". Grant saw the telegram and answered it
> himself: "OLD CARY GRANT FINE HOW YOU".
>
All the more irritating for the reporter, since they had sent their
original telegram 'reply paid'.

As I'm in the middle of reading a history of Venice, I feel compelled to
offer:

"Streets full of water, please advise."

--
Sam Plusnet

On Sun, 22 May 2022 01:08:38 +1000
Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 22/05/22 00:17, Tony Cooper wrote:
> > On Sat, 21 May 2022 23:56:51 +1000, Peter Moylan
> > <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> As I recall it, the people of county Mayo (where Charles Riggs went
> >> to live) couldn't adapt to "Chuck" at all. Instead, they called him
> >> The Yank With The Hat.
> >>
> >> Health problems subsequently forced him to move to Dún Laoghaire,
> >> a place known for the difficulty of pronouncing its name. (Hint:
> >> try dun leary.) When I was in Dublin I went there to try to track
> >> him down, but I failed.)
> >
> > We figured out that our destination was pronounced "dun leary" on
> > the ferry over from Wales. A later problem was finding something on
> > a Dublin map that didn't seem to any such places.
>
> It helps to know that Dún Laoghaire is the southernmost stop on the
> local Dublin rallway. I have found, in my travels, that a mental map of

It may have extended, or something

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Area_Rapid_Transit

says it's
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greystones#Rail

> the local transit system can be really helpful. In my case, I happened
> to be staying at the northern end of the line, in Howth.
>
> > If forget what it was we were looking for, but the word "key" was in
> > the spoken directions. No "keys" in Dublin, but there are "quays".
>
> In MyE quay is a common word. Not in yours?
>
Probably pronounced "dock"

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On 2022-05-21 11:41, musika wrote:
> On 21/05/2022 17:24, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:32:05 AM UTC-6, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 06:29:54 -0400
>>> CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/21/2022 2:41 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>>>>> Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Paul Wolff wrote:
>>>>>>> Peter T. Daniels posted:
>>>>>>>> Paul Wolff wrote:
>>>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It seems to me that 'how' in 'how are you?' is an
>>>>>>>>> interrogative adverb, so any good one-word answer must have
>>>>>>>>> adverbial force.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Good grief.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> "How are you?" "Poorly." That's considered
>>>>>>>> dialectal/nonstandard.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> "How's the tea?" "Tepidly."
>>>>
>>>>>>> Taste the tea, I pray you, as I pour'd it to you, tepidly on the
>>>>>>> tongue; but if you gulp it, as many of our players do, I had as
>>>>>>> lief the ale-conner quaffed my brew.
>>>>
>>>>>> Brew, brew, brew your pot At one for half-past three.
>>>>> Issat the time already?
>>>>>> Tepidly, tepidly, tepidly, tepidly, Not my cup of tea.
>>>>
>>>>> Whot, no buttered scones?
>>>>
>>>> Not till Wednesday.
>>
>>> Memory failed me; it was honey I was longing for.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is_There_Honey_Still_for_Tea%3F
>>>
>>> And Teatime is anytime, as it's permanently 2:45pm in Grantchester.
>>> (Or have they fixed the clock already?)
>>
>> I will brook no such errors.  A quick scan will show you that it's 3:10.
>>
> Is that allowing for inflation?

That because of VAT (Value Added Time).

--
This message is transmitted on 100% recycled electrons.