On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:22:08 PM UTC-4, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
> Friday, Paul Wolff murmurred ...
> > On Thu, 19 May 2022, at 06:41:27, Peter T. Daniels posted:
> >>On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 6:55:54 PM UTC-4, Jerry Friedman wrote:

> >>> but the OED classifies them as adjectives in the senses we're talking
> >>> about, which I think is right.
> >>> On the other hand, it classifies "how" as an adverb, which I think is
> >>> wrong.
> >>It would be a good place to look for what it thinks "adverb" means!
> >>OED does a truly lousy job with "grapheme" -- the definition it offers
> >>doesn't even cover the examples it gives. There's a paragraph about
> >>it in my book.
> > Forgive me, but I had to smile here. I'm very interested in graphene, so much
> > so that I don't need the OED to define it for me. Or was that not a typo, but
> > something else? A graphic meme, perhaps. And I'm still smiling to myself at
> > the thought.
>
> Not a typo, a different word. You read of phonemes here, which are
> sound pieces of a word (very roughly, syllables as spoken).

No! (Or rather, that seems to be how the word was used in early AI work
on computer-generated speech, when they discovered that marginally
acceptable results could be achieved by using half-syllables so as to
include the transitions into and out of individual "letters.")

> Do you not
> see that "grapheme" is a corresponding word referring to writing?
>
> /dps "graphemes, mmmmm, lucious"

If two words differ in only one sound, then the two sounds are
separate phonemes in that language. Frinstance, bat and cat
tell us that b and k are different phonemes in English.

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 8:00:36 PM UTC-4, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 5:22:08 PM UTC-6, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Friday, Paul Wolff murmurred ...
> > > On Thu, 19 May 2022, at 06:41:27, Peter T. Daniels posted:

> > >>OED does a truly lousy job with "grapheme" -- the definition it offers
> > >>doesn't even cover the examples it gives. There's a paragraph about
> > >>it in my book.
> > > Forgive me, but I had to smile here. I'm very interested in graphene, so much
> > > so that I don't need the OED to define it for me. Or was that not a typo, but
> > > something else? A graphic meme, perhaps. And I'm still smiling to myself at
> > > the thought.
> > Not a typo, a different word. You read of phonemes here, which are
> > sound pieces of a word (very roughly, syllables as spoken).
>
> The linguists will be along soon, but that would be less rough if you'd
> said "sounds" instead of "syllables".
> > Do you not
> > see that "grapheme" is a corresponding word referring to writing?
>
> I actually wouldn't mind a bit of discussion of graphemes, to the extent
> that they exist.

I think if you quote the entirety of the OED entry, it will be clear
what the internal problem is. Then we can see whether there'll
be interest in pursuing it here

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:30:48 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 21/05/22 05:40, Paul Wolff wrote:
> > On Fri, 20 May 2022, at 19:31:44, Sam Plusnet posted:
> >> On 20-May-22 2:19, Peter Moylan wrote:
> >>>
It's very possible that some of the OMG users have
> >>> no idea that gods were originally being invoked.
> >> OK.
> > O Krikey?
>
> In that category, a phrase that particularly strikes me is "Gees
> cripes". Apparently most people are unaware that that has a religious
> origin.

An Ozzism?

We have "Crimeny!" [the i pronounced to assonate]

And, since about 1940, "Jiminy Cricket!" (TC can look up the release date
of *Pinocchio* if he cares.)

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:33:19 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 20/05/22 22:47, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:39:19 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> >> Le jeudi 19 mai 2022 à 23:09:49 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> >>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 4:53:55 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> >>>> But ptd seems to think that "kaff" is a possible BrE pronunciation
> >>>> in "Le Café" (see upthread), whereas it's not.
> >>> I'll ask again. Where the hell do you see "Le Café"?
> >> My mistake, it was "The Cafe", but that doesn't change anything
> >> as "café" and "cafe" are pronounced the same , i.e. as "kaffay".
> > In French.
> > In American English.
> > Not necessarily, however, in British English.
>
> Yes, in British English too.
>
> The word "caff" has a different spelling.

When would they have occasion to spell it?

Le samedi 21 mai 2022 à 03:40:12 UTC+2, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> On 20/05/22 23:49, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:40:54 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>
> >> You haven't supported that claim and no native BrE-speakers here
> >> have confirmed it. The only transpondian difference in
> >> pronunciation is the shift of the stress from the first (BrE) to
> >> the second (AmE) syllable.
> >
> > The BrE pronunciation is more "authentic"? The stress shift occurred
> > in AmE?!?!?!?!
>
> That's part of a fairly widespread phenomenon. Words of relatively
> recent French origin

Do you mean French words that have recently been adopted into
English, or words that had been recently adopted into French when
they made into English?

> tend to acquire final-syllable stress in AmE, but
> not in BrE. That's because the British, who have much greater exposure
> to French, are more likely to copy the French pronunciation,

But the French pronunciation does have (slight) stress on the last
syllable. AmE [kəˈfeɪ] is closer to French [kafe] than is BrE [ˈkæfeɪ]

> while
> Americans seem to be more susceptible to the myth that French has
> final-syllable stress.

Where else coud it be?
>
> (Exception: it's a mystery to me how the English got their "garridge"
> pronunciation.)

How is that an exception from what you just explained? As with
BrE "café" the stress is on the first instead of the second syllable.

> --
> Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:40:12 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 20/05/22 23:49, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:40:54 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:

> >> You haven't supported that claim and no native BrE-speakers here
> >> have confirmed it. The only transpondian difference in
> >> pronunciation is the shift of the stress from the first (BrE) to
> >> the second (AmE) syllable.
> > The BrE pronunciation is more "authentic"? The stress shift occurred
> > in AmE?!?!?!?!
>
> That's part of a fairly widespread phenomenon. Words of relatively
> recent French origin tend to acquire final-syllable stress in AmE, but

They don't "acquire" it. That's where the stress _is_ in French words
(well, breath-groups). But in French it isn't phonemic, so Frenchpersons
don't hear it and therefore claim it doesn't exist.

> not in BrE. That's because the British, who have much greater exposure
> to French, are more likely to copy the French pronunciation, while

They do not copy the French pronunciation. They throw the stress
onto the first syllable and screw up the vowels, as in "garridge." The
AmE pronunciation of "garage" is almost identical to the French
pronunciation except for the r.

> Americans seem to be more susceptible to the myth that French has
> final-syllable stress.
>
> (Exception: it's a mystery to me how the English got their "garridge"
> pronunciation.)

It's where they parked the carriage?

You can hear it happening in all those culinary terms Mary and Paul use
on the Great British Baking Show.

On 22/05/22 00:28, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Sat, 21 May 2022 23:13:42 +1000: Peter Moylan
> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:
>
>> On 21/05/22 22:33, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>> Just like Dutch: 'Ik heb er mijn buik vol van'. Also in // 'Ik
>>> heb er genoeg van' <-> I'm fed up with it'.
>>
>> That's another education for me. I didn't know that a Dutch
>> sentence could end with "van". That's mostly impossible in English,
>> although it's possible to find exceptions, e.g. "That wasn't what I
>> was thinking of".
>
> That's the wonders of this o-so-difficult Dutch wordlet "er".
> Without it, you'd get "*Ik heb mijn buik vol van dat", similar to
> English. But fact, that is ungrammatical (hence my asterisk), because
> "van dat" needs to be replaced by "daarvan" (similar to English
> "thereof"). So:

Or you replace it with the genitive "er", which gets us back more
directly to Jans sentence.

>> Normally such an English sentence would end with "of it". But I
>> guess that in both Dutch and French that possibility is covered
>> with a pronoun that necessarily comes before the verb (in French)
>> or the direct object (in Dutch). English doesn't have such a
>> genitive pronoun. Nor does it have the dative pronoun that is so
>> common in French.
>
> I don't know if "er" is a pronoun, probably more like an adverb. But
> otherwise: yes, it can have that function.

I don't know enough about Dutch to comment on that, but I know that
French "en" (= of it) is definitely a pronoun.

>> Now I'm going to have to look up the Anglo-Saxon rules again,
>> because English definitely used to have genitive and dative forms
>> of pronouns. The dative forms have collapsed to being identical
>> with the accusative (as in "Give me a call"), while the genitive
>> forms headed in an entirely different direction.
>
> In Dutch, genitives are only still used in archaic and Biblical
> expressions. Zondag is de dag des Heeren = Sunday is the day of the
> Lord. Also in modern derivations thereof ('s morgens < des morgens =
> in the morgen, in the morning).

Not to mention 's GravenHage.

> There is no formal difference between dative and accusative, except
> in the distinction between "hun" (dative plural) and "hen"
> (accusative plural), which was already artificial when it was
> invented in the 16th or 17th century.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:28:35 AM UTC-4, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
> Remember when Jerry Friedman bragged outrageously? That was Friday:
> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 5:22:08 PM UTC-6, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> Friday, Paul Wolff murmurred ...
> >>> On Thu, 19 May 2022, at 06:41:27, Peter T. Daniels posted:

> >>>> OED does a truly lousy job with "grapheme" -- the definition it offers
> >>>> doesn't even cover the examples it gives. There's a paragraph about
> >>>> it in my book.
> >>> Forgive me, but I had to smile here. I'm very interested in graphene, so
> >>> much so that I don't need the OED to define it for me. Or was that not a
> >>> typo, but something else? A graphic meme, perhaps. And I'm still smiling
> >>> to myself at the thought.
> >> Not a typo, a different word. You read of phonemes here, which are
> >> sound pieces of a word (very roughly, syllables as spoken).
> > The linguists will be along soon, but that would be less rough if you'd
> > said "sounds" instead of "syllables".
>
> I said "sound pieces" deliberately.

But then you explained that as, very roughly, syllables as spoken.

> >> Do you not
> >> see that "grapheme" is a corresponding word referring to writing?
> > I actually wouldn't mind a bit of discussion of graphemes, to the extent
> > that they exist.
>
> You want more than "the smallest meaningful contrastive unit in a
> writing system" ?

What, precisely, does that refer to? Turkish has both a dotted i like
everyone else's, and a dotless i. Does that make the dot a grapheme?

On Sat, 21 May 2022 07:49:17 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:33:19 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 20/05/22 22:47, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:39:19 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>> >> Le jeudi 19 mai 2022 à 23:09:49 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>> >>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 4:53:55 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>
>> >>>> But ptd seems to think that "kaff" is a possible BrE pronunciation
>> >>>> in "Le Café" (see upthread), whereas it's not.
>> >>> I'll ask again. Where the hell do you see "Le Café"?
>> >> My mistake, it was "The Cafe", but that doesn't change anything
>> >> as "café" and "cafe" are pronounced the same , i.e. as "kaffay".
>> > In French.
>> > In American English.
>> > Not necessarily, however, in British English.
>>
>> Yes, in British English too.
>>
>> The word "caff" has a different spelling.
>
>When would they have occasion to spell it?

When writing it?

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:31:22 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Fri, 20 May 2022 10:32:49 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 1:01:21 PM UTC-4, ruudhar...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 8:13:07 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> >> > This morning I heard a silly ad on Youtube, in which an English
> >> > expression was translated literally. It was wrong, because the same
> >> > expression exists in Dutch, but slightly different, minus one word.
> >> > Now I wish I could remember what the expression was. But I can't.
> >> Heard it again. It was about an air conditioner.
> >> "Heeft u genoeg gehad van warme [something]".
> >> The almost identical expressions are:
> >> English: "I've had enough of it."
> >No "of it."
>
> Both, say these URLs:
> https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/have-had-enough-of-something
> https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/have+had+enough+of+him
> And "had enough of him" /her/you etc. googles.

We don't use "it" for people.

Your sentence might have been an impolite way of turning down an
offered second helping of some food.

See above where someone said not to say "J'en ai eu assez."

> >> Dutch: "Ik heb er genoeg van".
> >> So a correct translation would have left out the "gehad" as the direct
> >> translation of the English "had". This bad translation, with a human
> >> voice, pretending to be a computer voice by using a strange intonation
> >> and a strange rhythm, was word for word. Probably intentionally done
> >> so badly. To irritate people, or make them laugh (not me), and thereby
> >> getting more attention.

On 22/05/22 00:17, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sat, 21 May 2022 23:56:51 +1000, Peter Moylan
> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>> As I recall it, the people of county Mayo (where Charles Riggs went
>> to live) couldn't adapt to "Chuck" at all. Instead, they called him
>> The Yank With The Hat.
>>
>> Health problems subsequently forced him to move to Dún Laoghaire,
>> a place known for the difficulty of pronouncing its name. (Hint:
>> try dun leary.) When I was in Dublin I went there to try to track
>> him down, but I failed.)
>
> We figured out that our destination was pronounced "dun leary" on
> the ferry over from Wales. A later problem was finding something on
> a Dublin map that didn't seem to any such places.

It helps to know that Dún Laoghaire is the southernmost stop on the
local Dublin rallway. I have found, in my travels, that a mental map of
the local transit system can be really helpful. In my case, I happened
to be staying at the northern end of the line, in Howth.

> If forget what it was we were looking for, but the word "key" was in
> the spoken directions. No "keys" in Dublin, but there are "quays".

In MyE quay is a common word. Not in yours?

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:33:08 AM UTC-4, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, Sam Plusnet queried:
> > On 20-May-22 21:46, Tony Cooper wrote:

> >> Windows users (of which PTD is one) can easily delete all cookies at
> >> any time. I know people who delete all cookies after every online
> >> session. I sometimes do, but clearing cookies also clears the
> >> browser history and saved passwords. I don't consider that a problem
> >> because my passwords are stored in a password manager, and I seldom
> >> need to refer to my browser history.
> > Where I visit a website fairly often, I usually find cookies to be
> > convenient.
> > When accessing a website on a one-off basis, I do so in a "private window"
> > and accept any cookies it may care to to throw at my browser - because they
> > are all discarded when I close that private window.
> > I use Opera, but Firefox offers the same facility.
> > I don't know anything about other browsers.
>
> Chrome also has that feature.

Doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose of Google?

> I think that among some other browsers,
> less well known, that might be offered as the default.

On 2022-05-21 14:17:48 +0000, Tony Cooper said:

> On Sat, 21 May 2022 23:56:51 +1000, Peter Moylan
> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>> As I recall it, the people of county Mayo (where Charles Riggs went to
>> live) couldn't adapt to "Chuck" at all. Instead, they called him The
>> Yank With The Hat.
>>
>> Health problems subsequently forced him to move to Dún Laoghaire, a
>> place known for the difficulty of pronouncing its name. (Hint: try dun
>> leary.) When I was in Dublin I went there to try to track him down, but
>> I failed.)
>
> We figured out that our destination was pronounced "dun leary" on the
> ferry over from Wales. A later problem was finding something on a
> Dublin map that didn't seem to any such places.

It was called Dunleary until it was renamed as Kingstown and then
renamed again with its present name. My aunt (my mother's sister) lived
her last years there -- despite smoking about 30 cigarettes a day she
lived to be 97.
>
> If forget what it was we were looking for, but the word "key" was in
> the spoken directions. No "keys" in Dublin, but there are "quays".

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 3:57:55 AM UTC-4, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
> Watch this space, where Ruud Harmsen advised that...
> > Fri, 20 May 2022 10:32:49 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> > <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >
> >> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 1:01:21 PM UTC-4, ruudhar...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 8:13:07 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> >>>> This morning I heard a silly ad on Youtube, in which an English
> >>>> expression was translated literally. It was wrong, because the same
> >>>> expression exists in Dutch, but slightly different, minus one word.
> >>>> Now I wish I could remember what the expression was. But I can't.
> >>> Heard it again. It was about an air conditioner.
> >>> "Heeft u genoeg gehad van warme [something]".
> >>> The almost identical expressions are:
> >>> English: "I've had enough of it."
> >> No "of it."
> > Both, say these URLs:
> > https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/have-had-enough-of-something
> > https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/have+had+enough+of+him
> > And "had enough of him" /her/you etc. googles.
>
> And there's plenty of use of "I've had enough of that!"

I considered suggesting that, but it wasn't clear that he intended to be
dismissive. (Especially since they were presumably trying to sell air
conditioners.)

> >>> Dutch: "Ik heb er genoeg van".
> >>> So a correct translation would have left out the "gehad" as the direct
> >>> translation of the English "had". This bad translation, with a human
> >>> voice, pretending to be a computer voice by using a strange intonation
> >>> and a strange rhythm, was word for word. Probably intentionally done
> >>> so badly. To irritate people, or make them laugh (not me), and thereby
> >>> getting more attention.
>
> I'd be inclined, in your last sentence, to include the second "to" ...
> "or to make them laugh". And I might do your parenthetical as "(I
> didn't)".
>
> I don't know if I'd laugh or snort in an equivalent situation. I do
> raise an eyebrow when Speechelo's "Joey" reads his advertising script.
> And a lot of ootoob commercials seem to use "Joey"'s colleagues.

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 4:48:18 AM UTC-4, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Sat, 21 May 2022 11:33:13 +1000
> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> > On 20/05/22 22:47, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:39:19 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> > >> Le jeudi 19 mai 2022 à 23:09:49 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > >>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 4:53:55 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:

> > >>>> But ptd seems to think that "kaff" is a possible BrE pronunciation
> > >>>> in "Le Café" (see upthread), whereas it's not.
> > >>> I'll ask again. Where the hell do you see "Le Café"?
> > >> My mistake, it was "The Cafe", but that doesn't change anything
> > >> as "café" and "cafe" are pronounced the same , i.e. as "kaffay"..
> > > In French.
> > > In American English.
> > > Not necessarily, however, in British English.
> > Yes, in British English too.
> > The word "caff" has a different spelling.
>
> How dare you tell PTD what Brits say & think!

I see him only telling PTD how Brits spell.

When you try to be nasty, try to be accurate.

Especially since confirmation of the pronunciation was provided
far earlier in the thread, noting that it referred to downmarket
establishments such as would never be patronized by anyone
participating in this newsgroup.
> --
> Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On Sun, 22 May 2022 01:08:38 +1000, Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 22/05/22 00:17, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 23:56:51 +1000, Peter Moylan
>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> As I recall it, the people of county Mayo (where Charles Riggs went
>>> to live) couldn't adapt to "Chuck" at all. Instead, they called him
>>> The Yank With The Hat.
>>>
>>> Health problems subsequently forced him to move to Dún Laoghaire,
>>> a place known for the difficulty of pronouncing its name. (Hint:
>>> try dun leary.) When I was in Dublin I went there to try to track
>>> him down, but I failed.)
>>
>> We figured out that our destination was pronounced "dun leary" on
>> the ferry over from Wales. A later problem was finding something on
>> a Dublin map that didn't seem to any such places.
>
>It helps to know that Dún Laoghaire is the southernmost stop on the
>local Dublin rallway. I have found, in my travels, that a mental map of
>the local transit system can be really helpful. In my case, I happened
>to be staying at the northern end of the line, in Howth.
>
>> If forget what it was we were looking for, but the word "key" was in
>> the spoken directions. No "keys" in Dublin, but there are "quays".
>
>In MyE quay is a common word. Not in yours?

I can't speak for all Americans, but I do not know of any U.S. place
with "Quay" in the name. The words "dock" or "pier" are used in the
AmE that I know.

I had seen the word "Quay" in novels, but assumed it would be
pronounced "kway". I didn't have access to online pronunciation
guides in those days.

A "Key", in the US, is a small island. (From the Spanish "cayo")
While the above anecdote describes a trip taken before we moved to
Florida, I had been to Florida many times by that time.

The Florida Keys are a series of islands connected connected by a
highway.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:16:34 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
> Le 20/05/2022 à 14:13, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 1:38:12 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:

> >> This is just one type of material - there are also TV series etc. - and
> >> such exposure is how British people come to be thoroughly acquainted
> >> with American speech patterns.
> > Do you not understand, or do you not believe the fact at hand, which has
> > been told to you by others here as well? Merely being exposed to another
> > dialect does not make someone able to speak with that dialect. [...]
>
> I have already replied to that point. "... it isn't a question of
> learning to talk like an American, but of observing how Americans talk"
> - <news:t622ll$v3c$3...@gioia.aioe.org> on 22/05/18.

So you still do not understand that we are not talking about Brits-on-the-street,
but ACTORS attempting to talk like Americans.

Just review the subthread.

> I don't think I can put it more simply.
>
> >> I think you're confused. What I said was (of 'good' as a reply to "How
> >> are you?": "I think it's an example of linguistic inflation. Britons
> >> aren't immune to it, but I think Americans indulge in it more."
> >
> > No,
>
> Yes. I said it in <news:t5ve8g$11d4$1...@gioia.aioe.org> on 22/05/17.
>
> > what you said is that a couple of expressions were Eastpondian
> > versus equivalents in Westpondian. One was "fine" vs. "good," one
> > was "I've eaten" vs. "I already ate." You were simply wrong to claim that
> > the supposed "Eastpondian" ones don't occur in "Westpondian."
>
> I have made no such claim. If you think I have, then please indicate the
> message in which you think I made it and quote the passage.

On May 15, at 1:29 am (my time), you wrote

"in everyday speech it seems there's hardly a sentence that is the same
in Eastpondia and Westpondia. Take verb use, for instance: I've eaten vs
I ate already etc.. Or the question "How are you?", to which the answer
is either an adverb ("Fine") or an adjective ("Good")."

How is that not EXACTLY what I said it is?

On 22/05/22 00:29, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:32:42 PM UTC-4, Paul Wolff wrote:

> In the latest (NPR/PBS/NORC) poll, 64% of Americans say that abortion
> should be legal in all or most cases. [NORC is the National Opinion Research
> Center, a U of Chicago outfit]
>
> The problem is that (I think this is how a senator put it on one of the Sunday
> shows last week) 75% of the senators represent 44% of the people.
>
>>>> And it's still undecided, by the way.
>>> It's now clear how the decision will go.
>>
>> We've been spared the updates, thank goodness.

Is it possible to put this in national terms? That is, %% of the judges
represent %s of the people.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:40:12 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 20/05/22 23:49, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:40:54 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>
>>>> You haven't supported that claim and no native BrE-speakers here
>>>> have confirmed it. The only transpondian difference in
>>>> pronunciation is the shift of the stress from the first (BrE) to
>>>> the second (AmE) syllable.
>>> The BrE pronunciation is more "authentic"? The stress shift occurred
>>> in AmE?!?!?!?!
>>
>> That's part of a fairly widespread phenomenon. Words of relatively
>> recent French origin tend to acquire final-syllable stress in AmE, but
>
> They don't "acquire" it. That's where the stress _is_ in French words
> (well, breath-groups). But in French it isn't phonemic, so Frenchpersons
> don't hear it and therefore claim it doesn't exist.
>
>> not in BrE. That's because the British, who have much greater exposure
>> to French, are more likely to copy the French pronunciation, while
>
> They do not copy the French pronunciation. They throw the stress
> onto the first syllable and screw up the vowels, as in "garridge."

The one with stress on the first syllable, but an [a] in the second also
exists, and is common in some places (Australia?)

> The
> AmE pronunciation of "garage" is almost identical to the French
> pronunciation except for the r.

And the reduction of the first vowel. In French, both vowels are the
same. Part of the "French doesn't have stress" argument is that there's
no reduction of "non-stressed" vowels.

--
Somebody, your father or mine, should have told us that not many
people have ever died of love. But multitudes have perished, and
are perishing every hour [...] for the lack of it.
-- James Baldwin, Giovanni's Room

* Bebercito:

> Le vendredi 20 mai 2022 à 00:06:10 UTC+2, Quinn C a écrit :

>> Next: buses. I have the 51 and the 66 just steps from my door. In local
>> French, it's "la 51",
>
> Interesting, I didn't know that. The only explanation I can
> think of is that "ligne", not "bus", is implied ("la ligne 51").

Yes, that's the usual explanation.

In German, there's also two parallel expressions like that, "die 51",
but in the masculine case, more likely "der 51er".
> > whereas in France I believe it's more likely to be
>> called "le 51".
>
> Indeed, the reference is always to the bus itself.

--
The precise meaning of the expression "hey, ho" is lost in antiquity.
-- Sam the Eagle

On 22/05/22 00:49, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:33:19 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 20/05/22 22:47, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:39:19 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>>>> Le jeudi 19 mai 2022 à 23:09:49 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>>>>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 4:53:55 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>
>>>>>> But ptd seems to think that "kaff" is a possible BrE pronunciation
>>>>>> in "Le Café" (see upthread), whereas it's not.
>>>>> I'll ask again. Where the hell do you see "Le Café"?
>>>> My mistake, it was "The Cafe", but that doesn't change anything
>>>> as "café" and "cafe" are pronounced the same , i.e. as "kaffay".
>>> In French.
>>> In American English.
>>> Not necessarily, however, in British English.
>>
>> Yes, in British English too.
>>
>> The word "caff" has a different spelling.
>
> When would they have occasion to spell it?

When they spell it. Have you not noticed the "caf" and "caff" in BrE
sources?

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Le samedi 21 mai 2022 à 17:24:25 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 4:48:18 AM UTC-4, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> > On Sat, 21 May 2022 11:33:13 +1000
> > Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> > > On 20/05/22 22:47, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:39:19 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> > > >> Le jeudi 19 mai 2022 à 23:09:49 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > > >>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 4:53:55 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>
> > > >>>> But ptd seems to think that "kaff" is a possible BrE pronunciation
> > > >>>> in "Le Café" (see upthread), whereas it's not.
> > > >>> I'll ask again. Where the hell do you see "Le Café"?
> > > >> My mistake, it was "The Cafe", but that doesn't change anything
> > > >> as "café" and "cafe" are pronounced the same , i.e. as "kaffay".
> > > > In French.

Wrong - "cafe" doesn't exist in French and if it did, the -e would
be silent.
> > > > In American English.
> > > > Not necessarily, however, in British English.
> > > Yes, in British English too.
> > > The word "caff" has a different spelling.
> >
> > How dare you tell PTD what Brits say & think!
>
> I see him only telling PTD how Brits spell.
>
> When you try to be nasty, try to be accurate.
>
> Especially since confirmation of the pronunciation was provided
> far earlier in the thread, noting that it referred to downmarket
> establishments such as would never be patronized by anyone
> participating in this newsgroup.
> > --
> > Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On Sat, 21 May 2022 08:24:21 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 4:48:18 AM UTC-4, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 11:33:13 +1000
>> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>> > On 20/05/22 22:47, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:39:19 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>> > >> Le jeudi 19 mai 2022 à 23:09:49 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>> > >>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 4:53:55 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>
>> > >>>> But ptd seems to think that "kaff" is a possible BrE pronunciation
>> > >>>> in "Le Café" (see upthread), whereas it's not.
>> > >>> I'll ask again. Where the hell do you see "Le Café"?
>> > >> My mistake, it was "The Cafe", but that doesn't change anything
>> > >> as "café" and "cafe" are pronounced the same , i.e. as "kaffay".
>> > > In French.
>> > > In American English.
>> > > Not necessarily, however, in British English.
>> > Yes, in British English too.
>> > The word "caff" has a different spelling.
>>
>> How dare you tell PTD what Brits say & think!
>
>I see him only telling PTD how Brits spell.
>
>When you try to be nasty, try to be accurate.
>
>Especially since confirmation of the pronunciation was provided
>far earlier in the thread, noting that it referred to downmarket
>establishments such as would never be patronized by anyone
>participating in this newsgroup.

Oh, dear. Such snobbery. Your mind is as closed as tightly as the
proverbial duck's asshole.

While the participants of this group are all of a somewhat advanced
age, what they might patronize now and what they might have patronized
in their younger, or even student, years might be quite different.

The American term for a "caff" might be "greasy spoon". While I
haven't patronized a "greasy spoon" for several years, going to greasy
spoons for cheap eats was something not at all uncommon for me in past
days.

We don't forget terms just because we've aged a bit and become more
prosperous.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:02:22 AM UTC-6, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:28:35 AM UTC-4, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Remember when Jerry Friedman bragged outrageously? That was Friday:
....

> > > I actually wouldn't mind a bit of discussion of graphemes, to the extent
> > > that they exist.
> >
> > You want more than "the smallest meaningful contrastive unit in a
> > writing system" ?
>
> What, precisely, does that refer to? Turkish has both a dotted i like
> everyone else's, and a dotless i. Does that make the dot a grapheme?

I'm starting another thread.

--
Jerry Friedman

On Sun, 22 May 2022 01:33:35 +1000, Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 22/05/22 00:29, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:32:42 PM UTC-4, Paul Wolff wrote:
>
>> In the latest (NPR/PBS/NORC) poll, 64% of Americans say that abortion
>> should be legal in all or most cases. [NORC is the National Opinion Research
>> Center, a U of Chicago outfit]
>>
>> The problem is that (I think this is how a senator put it on one of the Sunday
>> shows last week) 75% of the senators represent 44% of the people.
>>
>>>>> And it's still undecided, by the way.
>>>> It's now clear how the decision will go.
>>>
>>> We've been spared the updates, thank goodness.
>
>Is it possible to put this in national terms? That is, %% of the judges
>represent %s of the people.

Not in this case. This is about a leak of a Supreme Court judge's
draft. There are nine such judges, and each was nominated by a US
President. Any % comparison would be by the party of the President
nominating the judge where the "party" indicates a liberal or
conservative position.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.