On 21-May-22 9:21, Snidely wrote:
> Just this Friday, lar3ryca puzzled about:
>> On 2022-05-20 22:23, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 13:19:45 +1000, Peter Moylan
>>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 21/05/22 11:48, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:30:48 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> In that category, a phrase that particularly strikes me is "Gees
>>>>>> cripes". Apparently most people are unaware that that has a
>>>>>> religious origin.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've never seen or heard that phrase.  I figured out early on that
>>>>> "Jeez" has a religious origin, but I was surprised to learn that
>>>>> "Sheesh" is supposed to have the same origin.
>>>>
>>>> That surprises me, too. I have always assumed that "sheesh" was a
>>>> minced
>>>> "shit".
>>>>
>>>> Google doesn't help. The very first hit says that it was invented by
>>>> someone on TikTok, and it takes an effort to find the ones that don't
>>>> mention TikTok. One site traces it from Hebrew ?????????? down
>>>> through ??????
>>>> amd Iesus and finally to sheesh. I'd never heard of those earlier
>>>> steps,
>>>> and I'm still not convinced about the final step.
>>>
>>> I can't provide proof, but I'm sure "sheesh" was commonly used long
>>> before TikTok came along.  Or mobile phones.  Or even cordless phones.
>>
>> Absolutely. I think I used that in the 60s, if not before.
>
> I think I even heard it in some Hanna-Barbera cartoons, most likely from
> Mr Jinks during his pursuit of Pixie and Dixie.
>
Yogi Bear is also pre-tiktok.

--
Sam Plusnet

On Sat, 21 May 2022 07:47:52 -0700 (PDT)
"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:30:48 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > On 21/05/22 05:40, Paul Wolff wrote:
> > > On Fri, 20 May 2022, at 19:31:44, Sam Plusnet posted:
> > >> On 20-May-22 2:19, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > >>>
> It's very possible that some of the OMG users have
> > >>> no idea that gods were originally being invoked.
> > >> OK.
> > > O Krikey?
> >
> > In that category, a phrase that particularly strikes me is "Gees
> > cripes". Apparently most people are unaware that that has a religious
> > origin.
>
> An Ozzism?
>
> We have "Crimeny!" [the i pronounced to assonate]
>
> And, since about 1940, "Jiminy Cricket!" (TC can look up the release date
> of *Pinocchio* if he cares.)

Does anyone under 60 still say that?

"Gee Willikers!" (to quote Bill Bryson)

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Tony Cooper:
> > If forget what it was we were looking for, but the word "key" was in
> > the spoken directions. No "keys" in Dublin, but there are "quays".
Peter Moylan:
> In MyE quay is a common word. Not in yours?

In Toronto one of the streets along the shore of Lake Ontario is
Queens Quay. I know it's really pronounced "key", but I often
call it "Kweens Kway" for (admittedly very feeble) humor. (I've
also come across the pronunciation "QQ", i.e. "cue-cue".)

I would not spontaneously use "quay" to describe any sort of port
facility.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto (require 'msb)
msb@vex.net -- Lars Lindberg

My text in this article is in the public domain.

On Sat, 21 May 2022 20:35:58 +0100
Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

> On 21-May-22 1:54, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> > On 21/05/2022 1:00 am, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 5:22:08 PM UTC-6, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> Friday, Paul Wolff murmurred ...
> >>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022, at 06:41:27, Peter T. Daniels posted:
> >> ...
> >>
> >>>>> OED does a truly lousy job with "grapheme" -- the definition it offers
> >>>>> doesn't even cover the examples it gives. There's a paragraph about
> >>>>> it in my book.
> >>>>
> >>>> Forgive me, but I had to smile here. I'm very interested in
> >>>> graphene, so much
> >>>> so that I don't need the OED to define it for me. Or was that not a
> >>>> typo, but
> >>>> something else? A graphic meme, perhaps. And I'm still smiling to
> >>>> myself at
> >>>> the thought.
> >>
> >>> Not a typo, a different word. You read of phonemes here, which are
> >>> sound pieces of a word (very roughly, syllables as spoken).
> >>
> >> The linguists will be along soon, but that would be less rough if you'd
> >> said "sounds" instead of "syllables".
> >>
> >>> Do you not
> >>> see that "grapheme" is a corresponding word referring to writing?
> >>
> >> I actually wouldn't mind a bit of discussion of graphemes, to the extent
> >> that they exist.
> >
> >
> > Thus quoth Wiktionary: "In linguistics, a grapheme is the smallest
> > functional unit of a writing system."
> >
> > So for English that'd be the full stop.
> >
> >
> Or the pointed end of a steel nibbed pen.
>
> Taking the pen, ink and paper to be the complete writing system.
>
Werl, you'd be wanting a desk to go with that.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 1:41:25 PM UTC-6, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Sat, 21 May 2022 09:24:48 -0700 (PDT)
> Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:32:05 AM UTC-6, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> > > On Sat, 21 May 2022 06:29:54 -0400
> > > CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 5/21/2022 2:41 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> > > > > Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > >> Paul Wolff wrote:
> > > > >>> Peter T. Daniels posted:
> > > > >>>> Paul Wolff wrote:
> > > > >> ...
> > > >
> > > > >>>>> It seems to me that 'how' in 'how are you?' is an
> > > > >>>>> interrogative adverb, so any good one-word answer must have
> > > > >>>>> adverbial force.
> > > >
> > > > >>>> Good grief.
> > > >
> > > > >>>> "How are you?" "Poorly." That's considered
> > > > >>>> dialectal/nonstandard.
> > > >
> > > > >>>> "How's the tea?" "Tepidly."
> > > >
> > > > >>> Taste the tea, I pray you, as I pour'd it to you, tepidly on the
> > > > >>> tongue; but if you gulp it, as many of our players do, I had as
> > > > >>> lief the ale-conner quaffed my brew.
> > > >
> > > > >> Brew, brew, brew your pot At one for half-past three.
> > > > > Issat the time already?
> > > > >> Tepidly, tepidly, tepidly, tepidly, Not my cup of tea.
> > > >
> > > > > Whot, no buttered scones?
> > > >
> > > > Not till Wednesday.
> >
> > > Memory failed me; it was honey I was longing for.
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is_There_Honey_Still_for_Tea%3F
> > >
> > > And Teatime is anytime, as it's permanently 2:45pm in Grantchester. (Or have they fixed the clock already?)
> >
> > I will brook no such errors. A quick scan will show you that it's 3:10.
> >
> Well a more substantial stare gave me 2:50.

Oops. For some reason it was very important to me not to check.

--
Jerry Friedman

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:33:19 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 20/05/22 22:47, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:39:19 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>>>> Le jeudi 19 mai 2022 à 23:09:49 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>>>>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 4:53:55 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>
>>>>>> But ptd seems to think that "kaff" is a possible BrE pronunciation
>>>>>> in "Le Café" (see upthread), whereas it's not.
>>>>> I'll ask again. Where the hell do you see "Le Café"?
>>>> My mistake, it was "The Cafe", but that doesn't change anything
>>>> as "café" and "cafe" are pronounced the same , i.e. as "kaffay".
>>> In French.
>>> In American English.
>>> Not necessarily, however, in British English.
>>
>> Yes, in British English too.
>>
>> The word "caff" has a different spelling.
>
> When would they have occasion to spell it?

Even if seldom written - would people conceptualize "caf" as being a
variant of "cafe", or rather, a different word? I suspect the latter.
More likely a shortening of cafeteria, to start with.

--
If you kill one person, you go to jail; if you kill 20, you go
to an institution for the insane; if you kill 20,000, you get
political asylum. -- Reed Brody, special counsel
for prosecutions at Human Rights Watch

* Silvano:

> Snidely hat am 21.05.2022 um 08:42 geschrieben:
>> Du hattest eine Nase voll?
>
> Definitely not. "Ich habe die Nase voll" (die, not eine)

Yes - most of us only have one of those. "Eine Nase voll" sounds like a
measurement, and a small one.

> is possible,
> but it refers rather to a very unpleasant situation or someone else's
> behaviour.

It could refer to food, but then it would more likely be about having
the same food or equally bad food over and over, not at just one meal.

--
Who would know aught of art must learn and then take his ease.

* CDB:

> On 5/20/2022 6:55 PM, Quinn C wrote:
>> * CDB:
>>> Quinn C wrote:
>>>> CDB:
>>>>> Quinn C wrote:
>>>>>> CDB:
>
>>>>> [Veras]
>
>>>>>>> And who can forget the beautiful Vera Hruba Ralston?
>
>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whslTp-Oe7g
>
>>>>>> Not me, since I never knew her in the first place.
>
>>> Me neither, but I have remembered that name for many years.
>
>>>>> How about the ever-popular Mae Busch?
>
>>>> Since she played in Laurel & Hardy movies, I've certainly seen
>>>> her, but didn't remember her name. The secondary characters in
>>>> those movies tend to not have a lot of personality.
>
>>>> I didn't recognize any other movie titles. What do you remember
>>>> her for?
>
>>> Mostly for being a stock line of Jackie Gleason's on '50s
>>> television, with "Busch" pronounced "boosh" [buS].
>
>> Well, another unfamiliar name. You had to be there, I guess.
>
> One was pathetically grateful for anything watchable.

We didn't have a TV until the 1970s, and anyway, I would've been too
young for most programs they had back then (pre-Teletubbies.)

--
.... it might be nice to see ourselves reflected in TV shows and
Pride season campaigns, but the cis white men who invented the
gender binary still own the damn mirror.
-- Delilah Friedler at slate.com

* lar3ryca:

> On 2022-05-20 22:23, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 13:19:45 +1000, Peter Moylan
>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 21/05/22 11:48, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:30:48 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>
>>>>> In that category, a phrase that particularly strikes me is "Gees
>>>>> cripes". Apparently most people are unaware that that has a
>>>>> religious origin.
>>>>
>>>> I've never seen or heard that phrase. I figured out early on that
>>>> "Jeez" has a religious origin, but I was surprised to learn that
>>>> "Sheesh" is supposed to have the same origin.
>>>
>>> That surprises me, too. I have always assumed that "sheesh" was a minced
>>> "shit".
>>>
>>> Google doesn't help. The very first hit says that it was invented by
>>> someone on TikTok, and it takes an effort to find the ones that don't
>>> mention TikTok. One site traces it from Hebrew ?????????? down through ??????
>>> amd Iesus and finally to sheesh. I'd never heard of those earlier steps,
>>> and I'm still not convinced about the final step.
>>
>> I can't provide proof, but I'm sure "sheesh" was commonly used long
>> before TikTok came along. Or mobile phones. Or even cordless phones.
>
> Absolutely. I think I used that in the 60s, if not before.

M-W reports evidence back to 1955. It doesn't give an origin. One of the
Collins dictionaries surmises "[euphemistic shortening of Jesus or
shit]".

--
It's a strange sensation, dying. No matter how many times it happens
to you, you never get used to it.
-- Ezri Dax, ST DS9, S07E03

On 2022-05-21 02:21, Snidely wrote:
> Just this Friday, lar3ryca puzzled about:
>> On 2022-05-20 22:23, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 13:19:45 +1000, Peter Moylan
>>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 21/05/22 11:48, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:30:48 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> In that category, a phrase that particularly strikes me is "Gees
>>>>>> cripes". Apparently most people are unaware that that has a
>>>>>> religious origin.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've never seen or heard that phrase.  I figured out early on that
>>>>> "Jeez" has a religious origin, but I was surprised to learn that
>>>>> "Sheesh" is supposed to have the same origin.
>>>>
>>>> That surprises me, too. I have always assumed that "sheesh" was a
>>>> minced
>>>> "shit".
>>>>
>>>> Google doesn't help. The very first hit says that it was invented by
>>>> someone on TikTok, and it takes an effort to find the ones that don't
>>>> mention TikTok. One site traces it from Hebrew ?????????? down
>>>> through ??????
>>>> amd Iesus and finally to sheesh. I'd never heard of those earlier
>>>> steps,
>>>> and I'm still not convinced about the final step.
>>>
>>> I can't provide proof, but I'm sure "sheesh" was commonly used long
>>> before TikTok came along.  Or mobile phones.  Or even cordless phones.
>>
>> Absolutely. I think I used that in the 60s, if not before.
>
> I think I even heard it in some Hanna-Barbera cartoons, most likely from
> Mr Jinks during his pursuit of Pixie and Dixie.

On further reflection, I think I first read it in a MAD Magazine, which
my brother and I started reading in the early 50s.

Unfortunately, I no longer have a machine on which my MAD Magazine
CDRoms (1952-1998) will run.

--
Verb is a noun.

On 21-May-22 16:38, Quinn C wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:
>
>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:40:12 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> On 20/05/22 23:49, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:40:54 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>>
>>>>> You haven't supported that claim and no native BrE-speakers here
>>>>> have confirmed it. The only transpondian difference in
>>>>> pronunciation is the shift of the stress from the first (BrE) to
>>>>> the second (AmE) syllable.
>>>> The BrE pronunciation is more "authentic"? The stress shift occurred
>>>> in AmE?!?!?!?!
>>>
>>> That's part of a fairly widespread phenomenon. Words of relatively
>>> recent French origin tend to acquire final-syllable stress in AmE, but
>>
>> They don't "acquire" it. That's where the stress _is_ in French words
>> (well, breath-groups). But in French it isn't phonemic, so Frenchpersons
>> don't hear it and therefore claim it doesn't exist.
>>
>>> not in BrE. That's because the British, who have much greater exposure
>>> to French, are more likely to copy the French pronunciation, while
>>
>> They do not copy the French pronunciation. They throw the stress
>> onto the first syllable and screw up the vowels, as in "garridge."
>
> The one with stress on the first syllable, but an [a] in the second also
> exists, and is common in some places (Australia?)

He has been told, a score of times, that _both_ pronunciations are
commonly used in BrE, and the same person might use either one,
depending on the context.

I'll stick to arguing with cats, it's more productive.

--
Sam Plusnet

Le samedi 21 mai 2022 à 21:16:57 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 3:03:19 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> > Le samedi 21 mai 2022 à 20:34:01 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 11:41:44 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> > > > Le samedi 21 mai 2022 à 17:24:25 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 4:48:18 AM UTC-4, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> > > > > > On Sat, 21 May 2022 11:33:13 +1000
> > > > > > Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> > > > > > > On 20/05/22 22:47, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:39:19 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> > > > > > > >> Le jeudi 19 mai 2022 à 23:09:49 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > > > > > > >>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 4:53:55 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> > >
> > > > > > > >>>> But ptd seems to think that "kaff" is a possible BrE pronunciation
> > > > > > > >>>> in "Le Café" (see upthread), whereas it's not.
> > > > > > > >>> I'll ask again. Where the hell do you see "Le Café"?
> > > > > > > >> My mistake, it was "The Cafe", but that doesn't change anything
> > > > > > > >> as "café" and "cafe" are pronounced the same , i.e. as "kaffay".
> > > > > > > > In French.
> > > >
> > > > Wrong - "cafe" doesn't exist in French and if it did, the -e would
> > > > be silent.
> > > ? Café is pronounced kaffay in French.
> > I said:
> >
> > |"café" and "cafe" are pronounced the same , i.e. as "kaffay".
> > You answered:
> >
> > |in French.
> >
> > Therefore, I repeat:
> > Wrong - "cafe" doesn't exist in French and if it did, the -e would
> > be silent.
> You couldn't figure out that the statement didn't apply to the non-French word??

Who could've? That wouldn't have made sense anyway, since right after

|in French.

you wrote:

|In American English.
| |Not necessarily, however, in British English.

Which indicates that you were replying to the "sameness" part of
the statement.

> > (I wrote "cafe" not "café", in case you didn't notice.)
> >
> > >
> > > > > > > > In American English.

On 2022-05-21 13:48, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 21-May-22 17:06, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:01:14 AM UTC-6, Paul Wolff wrote:
>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022, at 01:57:44, Sam Plusnet posted:
>>>> On 20-May-22 20:40, Paul Wolff wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022, at 19:31:44, Sam Plusnet posted:
>>>>>> On 20-May-22 2:19, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>>>> On 19/05/22 22:16, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Last night, watching a TV program, two different women said "oh em
>>>>>>>> gee".  The program is a Canadian production set in Toronto.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They were mothers at a party for one mother's child's first
>>>>>>>> birthday.
>>>>>>>   Social media - Usenet and its successors - are to blame for
>>>>>>> this. In
>>>>>>> online discussions it's natural to create abbreviations for common
>>>>>>> phrases. Eventually newcomers arrive who have little or no
>>>>>>> knowledge of
>>>>>>> the original phrase, and know only the abbreviation.
>>>>>>>   It's very possible that some of the OMG users have no idea that
>>>>>>> gods
>>>>>>> were originally being invoked.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OK.
>>>>>>
>>>>> O Krikey?
>>>>
>>>> Was the telegraph the 'social media' of its day?
>>>>
>>>> It certainly 'did' abbreviations - of one sort or another.
>>>>
>>>> "How Old Cary Grant?"
>>>>
>>> "Fine". (We go full circle.)
>> ...
>>
>> The story I read in a book by Nigel Rees was that a reporter wired
>> Cary Grant's
>> agent: "HOW OLD CARY GRANT".  Grant saw the telegram and answered it
>> himself: "OLD CARY GRANT FINE HOW YOU".
>>
> All the more irritating for the reporter, since they had sent their
> original telegram 'reply paid'.
>
> As I'm in the middle of reading a history of Venice, I feel compelled to
> offer:
>
> "Streets full of water, please advise."

Told to me by my Ukrainian father-in-law.

Two Ukrainian farmers were going to a bull sale (auction). They saw a
bull that was being bid up higher than they had planned to spend, but it
was so good that they decided to bid higher, and were successful.

They loaded the bull into the trailer, but when they started the truck,
it made a lot of horrible noises and would not run.

They decided to ask a friend to come and help get the bull home.

They had no choice but to use a telegram, but they had spent so much on
the bull that they could only afford a one word message.

They pondered that for a while, and one of them said "I know what to send!"

So the telegram read "COMFORTABLE".

--
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.

On Sat, 21 May 2022, at 21:12:13, Kerr-Mudd, John posted:
>Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>> On 21-May-22 1:54, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>> >
>> > Thus quoth Wiktionary: "In linguistics, a grapheme is the smallest
>> > functional unit of a writing system."
>> >
>> > So for English that'd be the full stop.
>> >
>> Or the pointed end of a steel nibbed pen.
>>
>> Taking the pen, ink and paper to be the complete writing system.
>>
>Werl, you'd be wanting a desk to go with that.
>
Or a raven.
--
Paul

On Sat, 21 May 2022 22:25:10 +0100, Paul Wolff
<bounceme@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:

>On Sat, 21 May 2022, at 21:12:13, Kerr-Mudd, John posted:
>>Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>>> On 21-May-22 1:54, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Thus quoth Wiktionary: "In linguistics, a grapheme is the smallest
>>> > functional unit of a writing system."
>>> >
>>> > So for English that'd be the full stop.
>>> >
>>> Or the pointed end of a steel nibbed pen.
>>>
>>> Taking the pen, ink and paper to be the complete writing system.
>>>
>>Werl, you'd be wanting a desk to go with that.
>>
>Or a raven.

Yes, they're much the same.

On Sat, 21 May 2022 20:48:21 +0100, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

>On 21-May-22 17:06, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:01:14 AM UTC-6, Paul Wolff wrote:
>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022, at 01:57:44, Sam Plusnet posted:
>>>> On 20-May-22 20:40, Paul Wolff wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022, at 19:31:44, Sam Plusnet posted:
>>>>>> On 20-May-22 2:19, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>>>> On 19/05/22 22:16, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Last night, watching a TV program, two different women said "oh em
>>>>>>>> gee". The program is a Canadian production set in Toronto.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They were mothers at a party for one mother's child's first
>>>>>>>> birthday.
>>>>>>> Social media - Usenet and its successors - are to blame for this. In
>>>>>>> online discussions it's natural to create abbreviations for common
>>>>>>> phrases. Eventually newcomers arrive who have little or no knowledge of
>>>>>>> the original phrase, and know only the abbreviation.
>>>>>>> It's very possible that some of the OMG users have no idea that gods
>>>>>>> were originally being invoked.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OK.
>>>>>>
>>>>> O Krikey?
>>>>
>>>> Was the telegraph the 'social media' of its day?
>>>>
>>>> It certainly 'did' abbreviations - of one sort or another.
>>>>
>>>> "How Old Cary Grant?"
>>>>
>>> "Fine". (We go full circle.)
>> ...
>>
>> The story I read in a book by Nigel Rees was that a reporter wired Cary Grant's
>> agent: "HOW OLD CARY GRANT". Grant saw the telegram and answered it
>> himself: "OLD CARY GRANT FINE HOW YOU".
>>
>All the more irritating for the reporter, since they had sent their
>original telegram 'reply paid'.
>
>As I'm in the middle of reading a history of Venice,

What history? I finished one just a few days ago (sorry, I don't
remember its name).

>I feel compelled to
>offer:
>
>"Streets full of water, please advise."

On Sat, 21 May 2022 16:20:52 -0400, Quinn C
<lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Peter T. Daniels:
>
>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:33:19 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> On 20/05/22 22:47, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:39:19 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>>>>> Le jeudi 19 mai 2022 à 23:09:49 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>>>>>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 4:53:55 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> But ptd seems to think that "kaff" is a possible BrE pronunciation
>>>>>>> in "Le Café" (see upthread), whereas it's not.
>>>>>> I'll ask again. Where the hell do you see "Le Café"?
>>>>> My mistake, it was "The Cafe", but that doesn't change anything
>>>>> as "café" and "cafe" are pronounced the same , i.e. as "kaffay".
>>>> In French.
>>>> In American English.
>>>> Not necessarily, however, in British English.
>>>
>>> Yes, in British English too.
>>>
>>> The word "caff" has a different spelling.
>>
>> When would they have occasion to spell it?
>
>Even if seldom written - would people conceptualize "caf" as being a
>variant of "cafe", or rather, a different word? I suspect the latter.
>More likely a shortening of cafeteria, to start with.

The discussion has been about the British use of the term "caff". It
is descriptive of a certain *type* of establishment.

I don't recall seeing "cafeteria" being used by Brits. The concept,
yes, but not the word.

If an American uses "caff", it would be a shortening of either cafe,
café, or cafeteria, but it would not describe the *type* of
establishment. Just a slangy shortening.

obAUE: Authentic British contributor needed to confirm whether or not
"cafeteria" is a word in general use in the UK.

In 1969 we ate in a Lyons Corner House near Picadilly Circus in
London. It was cafeteria style, but not - as I remember it - called
a cafeteria.

This particular Lyons had restaurants on more than one floor. There
were several types of service on different floors.

"Cafeteria-style" is where the patrons go through a line pushing a
tray along a rail, and point to and order the particular dishes they
want. The food is handed over by an employee. The total for the
items they choose are totted-up and either paid for at a cashier at
the end of the line or the cashier gives them a check to be paid on
exit.

"Buffet-style" is similar, but the patron takes a plate at the
beginning of the line and puts the food on the plate themself. At
buffet restaurants, one usually pays in advance.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

In message <t6av9p$g50$1@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> On 22/05/22 00:17, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 23:56:51 +1000, Peter Moylan
>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> As I recall it, the people of county Mayo (where Charles Riggs went
>>> to live) couldn't adapt to "Chuck" at all. Instead, they called him
>>> The Yank With The Hat.
>>>
>>> Health problems subsequently forced him to move to Dún Laoghaire,
>>> a place known for the difficulty of pronouncing its name. (Hint:
>>> try dun leary.) When I was in Dublin I went there to try to track
>>> him down, but I failed.)
>>
>> We figured out that our destination was pronounced "dun leary" on
>> the ferry over from Wales. A later problem was finding something on
>> a Dublin map that didn't seem to any such places.

> It helps to know that Dún Laoghaire is the southernmost stop on the
> local Dublin rallway. I have found, in my travels, that a mental map of
> the local transit system can be really helpful. In my case, I happened
> to be staying at the northern end of the line, in Howth.

Yes, looking at the transit map and picking out some stations on the
periphery and one in the center really helps a lot.

Although this did slightly backfire for me in London where "Chesham" and
"Cheshunt" were easily confused and in very different directions.

Also, knowing hough "Dún Laoughaire" is pronounced would be a big help,
as well as knowing that "quay" is pronounced "key".

I would have guessed there were still some "quays" around Florida, but I
guess not. There are lots of quays in the Caribbean.

>> If forget what it was we were looking for, but the word "key" was in
>> the spoken directions. No "keys" in Dublin, but there are "quays".

> In MyE quay is a common word. Not in yours?

It is common enough for me from reading, but I always internally think
of it as "kway" even though i know it is "key" (because I first
encountered it in childhood reading of things like Robert Louis
Stevenson (Robert Looee Stevenson), and didn't know how it was
pronounced.

generally the word is spelt k-e-y in AmE, as in the Florida Keys and Ley
West and Ley Lime Pie.

--
Women like silent men, they think they're listening.

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 4:28:45 PM UTC-6, Lewis wrote:
> In message <t6av9p$g50$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> > On 22/05/22 00:17, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> On Sat, 21 May 2022 23:56:51 +1000, Peter Moylan
> >> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >>> As I recall it, the people of county Mayo (where Charles Riggs went
> >>> to live) couldn't adapt to "Chuck" at all. Instead, they called him
> >>> The Yank With The Hat.
> >>>
> >>> Health problems subsequently forced him to move to Dún Laoghaire,
> >>> a place known for the difficulty of pronouncing its name. (Hint:
> >>> try dun leary.) When I was in Dublin I went there to try to track
> >>> him down, but I failed.)
> >>
> >> We figured out that our destination was pronounced "dun leary" on
> >> the ferry over from Wales. A later problem was finding something on
> >> a Dublin map that didn't seem to any such places.
>
> > It helps to know that Dún Laoghaire is the southernmost stop on the
> > local Dublin rallway. I have found, in my travels, that a mental map of
> > the local transit system can be really helpful. In my case, I happened
> > to be staying at the northern end of the line, in Howth.
> Yes, looking at the transit map and picking out some stations on the
> periphery and one in the center really helps a lot.
>
> Although this did slightly backfire for me in London where "Chesham" and
> "Cheshunt" were easily confused and in very different directions.
>
> Also, knowing hough "Dún Laoughaire" is pronounced would be a big help,
> as well as knowing that "quay" is pronounced "key".
>
> I would have guessed there were still some "quays" around Florida, but I
> guess not. There are lots of quays in the Caribbean.
> >> If forget what it was we were looking for, but the word "key" was in
> >> the spoken directions. No "keys" in Dublin, but there are "quays".
> > In MyE quay is a common word. Not in yours?

> It is common enough for me from reading,

Same with me, but I don't remember ever hearing an American say it except
in quoting something from another country.

> but I always internally think
> of it as "kway" even though i know it is "key" (because I first
> encountered it in childhood reading of things like Robert Louis
> Stevenson (Robert Looee Stevenson), and didn't know how it was
> pronounced.
>
> generally the word is spelt k-e-y in AmE, as in the Florida Keys and Ley
> West and Ley Lime Pie.

I think you're confusing "quay" (a pier or wharf, from French) with "cay" and
"key" (a small island in the Caribbean or near Florida, from Spanish--from
Taino, says etymonline, but the OED is uncertain).

--
Jerry Friedman

On 21/05/2022 9:12 pm, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Sat, 21 May 2022 20:35:58 +0100
> Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>
>> On 21-May-22 1:54, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>> On 21/05/2022 1:00 am, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 5:22:08 PM UTC-6, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> Friday, Paul Wolff murmurred ...
>>>>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022, at 06:41:27, Peter T. Daniels posted:
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>>>> OED does a truly lousy job with "grapheme" -- the definition it offers
>>>>>>> doesn't even cover the examples it gives. There's a paragraph about
>>>>>>> it in my book.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Forgive me, but I had to smile here. I'm very interested in
>>>>>> graphene, so much
>>>>>> so that I don't need the OED to define it for me. Or was that not a
>>>>>> typo, but
>>>>>> something else? A graphic meme, perhaps. And I'm still smiling to
>>>>>> myself at
>>>>>> the thought.
>>>>
>>>>> Not a typo, a different word. You read of phonemes here, which are
>>>>> sound pieces of a word (very roughly, syllables as spoken).
>>>>
>>>> The linguists will be along soon, but that would be less rough if you'd
>>>> said "sounds" instead of "syllables".
>>>>
>>>>> Do you not
>>>>> see that "grapheme" is a corresponding word referring to writing?
>>>>
>>>> I actually wouldn't mind a bit of discussion of graphemes, to the extent
>>>> that they exist.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thus quoth Wiktionary: "In linguistics, a grapheme is the smallest
>>> functional unit of a writing system."
>>>
>>> So for English that'd be the full stop.
>>>
>>>
>> Or the pointed end of a steel nibbed pen.
>>
>> Taking the pen, ink and paper to be the complete writing system.
>>
> Werl, you'd be wanting a desk to go with that.

So the smallest functional unit of that would be a desk atom?

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

On 21-May-22 22:49, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Sat, 21 May 2022 20:48:21 +0100, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>
>> On 21-May-22 17:06, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:01:14 AM UTC-6, Paul Wolff wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022, at 01:57:44, Sam Plusnet posted:
>>>>> On 20-May-22 20:40, Paul Wolff wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022, at 19:31:44, Sam Plusnet posted:
>>>>>>> On 20-May-22 2:19, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 19/05/22 22:16, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Last night, watching a TV program, two different women said "oh em
>>>>>>>>> gee". The program is a Canadian production set in Toronto.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They were mothers at a party for one mother's child's first
>>>>>>>>> birthday.
>>>>>>>> Social media - Usenet and its successors - are to blame for this. In
>>>>>>>> online discussions it's natural to create abbreviations for common
>>>>>>>> phrases. Eventually newcomers arrive who have little or no knowledge of
>>>>>>>> the original phrase, and know only the abbreviation.
>>>>>>>> It's very possible that some of the OMG users have no idea that gods
>>>>>>>> were originally being invoked.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OK.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> O Krikey?
>>>>>
>>>>> Was the telegraph the 'social media' of its day?
>>>>>
>>>>> It certainly 'did' abbreviations - of one sort or another.
>>>>>
>>>>> "How Old Cary Grant?"
>>>>>
>>>> "Fine". (We go full circle.)
>>> ...
>>>
>>> The story I read in a book by Nigel Rees was that a reporter wired Cary Grant's
>>> agent: "HOW OLD CARY GRANT". Grant saw the telegram and answered it
>>> himself: "OLD CARY GRANT FINE HOW YOU".
>>>
>> All the more irritating for the reporter, since they had sent their
>> original telegram 'reply paid'.
>>
>> As I'm in the middle of reading a history of Venice,
>
>
> What history? I finished one just a few days ago (sorry, I don't
> remember its name).

In a bold stroke of originality, John Julius Norwich called it
"A History of Venice".

--
Sam Plusnet

On 21-May-22 22:50, Tony Cooper wrote:
> I don't recall seeing "cafeteria" being used by Brits. The concept,
> yes, but not the word.

One of the terms for eating places for employees and other inmates.

Canteen, cafeteria, staff dining room, refectory.

--
Sam Plusnet

On Sat, 21 May 2022 22:28:39 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

>In message <t6av9p$g50$1@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>> On 22/05/22 00:17, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 23:56:51 +1000, Peter Moylan
>>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> As I recall it, the people of county Mayo (where Charles Riggs went
>>>> to live) couldn't adapt to "Chuck" at all. Instead, they called him
>>>> The Yank With The Hat.
>>>>
>>>> Health problems subsequently forced him to move to Dún Laoghaire,
>>>> a place known for the difficulty of pronouncing its name. (Hint:
>>>> try dun leary.) When I was in Dublin I went there to try to track
>>>> him down, but I failed.)
>>>
>>> We figured out that our destination was pronounced "dun leary" on
>>> the ferry over from Wales. A later problem was finding something on
>>> a Dublin map that didn't seem to any such places.
>
>> It helps to know that Dún Laoghaire is the southernmost stop on the
>> local Dublin rallway. I have found, in my travels, that a mental map of
>> the local transit system can be really helpful. In my case, I happened
>> to be staying at the northern end of the line, in Howth.
>
>Yes, looking at the transit map and picking out some stations on the
>periphery and one in the center really helps a lot.
>
>Although this did slightly backfire for me in London where "Chesham" and
>"Cheshunt" were easily confused and in very different directions.
>
>Also, knowing hough "Dún Laoughaire" is pronounced would be a big help,
>as well as knowing that "quay" is pronounced "key".
>
>I would have guessed there were still some "quays" around Florida, but I
>guess not. There are lots of quays in the Caribbean.
>
>>> If forget what it was we were looking for, but the word "key" was in
>>> the spoken directions. No "keys" in Dublin, but there are "quays".
>
>> In MyE quay is a common word. Not in yours?
>
>It is common enough for me from reading, but I always internally think
>of it as "kway" even though i know it is "key" (because I first
>encountered it in childhood reading of things like Robert Louis
>Stevenson (Robert Looee Stevenson), and didn't know how it was
>pronounced.
>
>generally the word is spelt k-e-y in AmE, as in the Florida Keys and Ley
>West and Ley Lime Pie.

But a quay and a key are two different things. A quay is a man-built
structure that projects into the water. A key is a nature-caused
island that is surrounded by water.

The quays in Florida are called docks or piers.

A key is also called a "cay". In Florida, a key. In the Caribbean, a
cay.

The city of Key West, Florida was once called Cayo Hueso, which means
"bone cay", and allegedly because when the island was discovered by
the Spanish there were many bones strewn about the island. They would
have been the bones of Calusa Indians.

It is the westernmost key in the chain, but not by much. It is the
southernmost city in the contiguous U.S., so if geographical placement
was the determiner, it would be Key South, not Key West.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

On Sun, 22 May 2022 01:04:48 +0100, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

>On 21-May-22 22:50, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> I don't recall seeing "cafeteria" being used by Brits. The concept,
>> yes, but not the word.
>
>One of the terms for eating places for employees and other inmates.
>
>Canteen, cafeteria, staff dining room, refectory.

In the US, there are restaurants that are cafeterias. For the public,
not for the employees of a particular company.

The same in the UK?

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 3:50:16 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
....

> "Cafeteria-style" is where the patrons go through a line pushing a
> tray along a rail, and point to and order the particular dishes they
> want. The food is handed over by an employee.

Although in most cafeterias I've been to, some foods are available
in servings on plates etc., and customers help themselves.

> The total for the
> items they choose are totted-up and either paid for at a cashier at
> the end of the line or the cashier gives them a check to be paid on
> exit.
>
> "Buffet-style" is similar, but the patron takes a plate at the
> beginning of the line and puts the food on the plate themself. At
> buffet restaurants, one usually pays in advance.

How long since we did "omelette station"?

--
Jerry Friedman