On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 1:21:00 PM UTC-7, Quinn C wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:
> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:33:19 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> >> On 20/05/22 22:47, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:39:19 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> >>>> Le jeudi 19 mai 2022 à 23:09:49 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> >>>>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 4:53:55 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> >
> >>>>>> But ptd seems to think that "kaff" is a possible BrE pronunciation
> >>>>>> in "Le Café" (see upthread), whereas it's not.
> >>>>> I'll ask again. Where the hell do you see "Le Café"?
> >>>> My mistake, it was "The Cafe", but that doesn't change anything
> >>>> as "café" and "cafe" are pronounced the same , i.e. as "kaffay"..
> >>> In French.
> >>> In American English.
> >>> Not necessarily, however, in British English.
> >>
> >> Yes, in British English too.
> >>
> >> The word "caff" has a different spelling.
> >
> > When would they have occasion to spell it?
> Even if seldom written - would people conceptualize "caf" as being a
> variant of "cafe", or rather, a different word? I suspect the latter.
> More likely a shortening of cafeteria, to start with.
>
Or of coffee with caffeine. Otherwise, how would you get decaf?

bill

On Sat, 21 May 2022 17:31:34 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
<jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 3:50:16 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
>...
>
>> "Cafeteria-style" is where the patrons go through a line pushing a
>> tray along a rail, and point to and order the particular dishes they
>> want. The food is handed over by an employee.
>
>Although in most cafeterias I've been to, some foods are available
>in servings on plates etc., and customers help themselves.
>
In my experience (and I speak for no one else) the customer points or
asks for something, the cafeteria worker puts a portion of that on the
plate, the plate is then passed to the next cafeteria worker, the
customer asks for somethng else to be added, and so on.

The idea is that the plate has a main item (usually meat) and two or
three vegetables and a bread/roll as added to the plate. The customer
is choosing the mix.

Some items - salads and desserts - come already plated or in small
bowls, though.

>> The total for the
>> items they choose are totted-up and either paid for at a cashier at
>> the end of the line or the cashier gives them a check to be paid on
>> exit.
>>
>> "Buffet-style" is similar, but the patron takes a plate at the
>> beginning of the line and puts the food on the plate themself. At
>> buffet restaurants, one usually pays in advance.
>
>How long since we did "omelette station"?
--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

In message <p4vi8hho6kst3gtrkcj1ucp7vfb64tqer2@4ax.com> Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 21 May 2022 22:28:39 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
> <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

>>In message <t6av9p$g50$1@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 22/05/22 00:17, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 23:56:51 +1000, Peter Moylan
>>>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> As I recall it, the people of county Mayo (where Charles Riggs went
>>>>> to live) couldn't adapt to "Chuck" at all. Instead, they called him
>>>>> The Yank With The Hat.
>>>>>
>>>>> Health problems subsequently forced him to move to Dún Laoghaire,
>>>>> a place known for the difficulty of pronouncing its name. (Hint:
>>>>> try dun leary.) When I was in Dublin I went there to try to track
>>>>> him down, but I failed.)
>>>>
>>>> We figured out that our destination was pronounced "dun leary" on
>>>> the ferry over from Wales. A later problem was finding something on
>>>> a Dublin map that didn't seem to any such places.
>>
>>> It helps to know that Dún Laoghaire is the southernmost stop on the
>>> local Dublin rallway. I have found, in my travels, that a mental map of
>>> the local transit system can be really helpful. In my case, I happened
>>> to be staying at the northern end of the line, in Howth.
>>
>>Yes, looking at the transit map and picking out some stations on the
>>periphery and one in the center really helps a lot.
>>
>>Although this did slightly backfire for me in London where "Chesham" and
>>"Cheshunt" were easily confused and in very different directions.
>>
>>Also, knowing hough "Dún Laoughaire" is pronounced would be a big help,
>>as well as knowing that "quay" is pronounced "key".
>>
>>I would have guessed there were still some "quays" around Florida, but I
>>guess not. There are lots of quays in the Caribbean.
>>
>>>> If forget what it was we were looking for, but the word "key" was in
>>>> the spoken directions. No "keys" in Dublin, but there are "quays".
>>
>>> In MyE quay is a common word. Not in yours?
>>
>>It is common enough for me from reading, but I always internally think
>>of it as "kway" even though i know it is "key" (because I first
>>encountered it in childhood reading of things like Robert Louis
>>Stevenson (Robert Looee Stevenson), and didn't know how it was
>>pronounced.
>>
>>generally the word is spelt k-e-y in AmE, as in the Florida Keys and Ley
>>West and Ley Lime Pie.

> But a quay and a key are two different things. A quay is a man-built
> structure that projects into the water. A key is a nature-caused
> island that is surrounded by water.

OK. I have always thought of them are related since they both seem to be
tied to small islands. In the Caribbean "quay" is used as a name for a
locations and rarely has anything to do with an actual pier.

"Settle in to a tropical paradise at Caribbean Quay for your next
Hatteras Island getaway." (description of a rental property).

There's also 'Cay' which ads confusion to the whole thing.

But I did think the terms were all related.

Note: I have never lived near (less than 500km) from on ocean or large
body of water, so my knowledge is restricted to occasional tourism and
books I've read.

--
Is a vegetarian permitted to eat animal crackers?

On 22/05/2022 3:00 am, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sat, 21 May 2022 17:31:34 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 3:50:16 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> "Cafeteria-style" is where the patrons go through a line pushing a
>>> tray along a rail, and point to and order the particular dishes they
>>> want. The food is handed over by an employee.
>>
>> Although in most cafeterias I've been to, some foods are available
>> in servings on plates etc., and customers help themselves.
>>
> In my experience (and I speak for no one else) the customer points or
> asks for something, the cafeteria worker puts a portion of that on the
> plate, the plate is then passed to the next cafeteria worker, the
> customer asks for somethng else to be added, and so on.

In my experience (and I speak for no one else) there is no
general rule, and on entering an unfamiliar establishment one
simply casts an exploratory eye over the layout, taking into
account such factors as positioning of tills, tray stacks, tray
rails, food cabinets, drinks machines, bloody great signs bearing
instructions, staff positioning, customer queues, and other such
helpful hints to work out how to acquire and pay for one's food,
drink, or both with minimum fuss. There being a limited number of
sensible possibilities, this is rarely a weighty burden on the
intellectual prowess of even the establishment's densest patrons,
and thus is the Empire forged and fed.

This technique works everywhere except McDonalds, where upon
entering you are brought face to face with an unfamiliar ordering
computer so badly designed that no amount of experience of
computers will avail you in the slightest. The only rational
response is to leave and find somewhere else, which is precisely
what I did.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

Sun, 22 May 2022 00:57:29 +1000: Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:

>On 22/05/22 00:28, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Sat, 21 May 2022 23:13:42 +1000: Peter Moylan
>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:
>>
>>> On 21/05/22 22:33, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>> Just like Dutch: 'Ik heb er mijn buik vol van'. Also in // 'Ik
>>>> heb er genoeg van' <-> I'm fed up with it'.
>>>
>>> That's another education for me. I didn't know that a Dutch
>>> sentence could end with "van". That's mostly impossible in English,
>>> although it's possible to find exceptions, e.g. "That wasn't what I
>>> was thinking of".
>>
>> That's the wonders of this o-so-difficult Dutch wordlet "er".
>> Without it, you'd get "*Ik heb mijn buik vol van dat", similar to
>> English. But fact, that is ungrammatical (hence my asterisk), because
>> "van dat" needs to be replaced by "daarvan" (similar to English
>> "thereof"). So:
>
>Or you replace it with the genitive "er", which gets us back more
>directly to Jans sentence.

I don't see how Dutch "er" can be a genetive.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

* "Kerr-Mudd, John" <20220521104349.537a2b779dfbeda07b3f699c @127.0.0.1> :
Wrote on Sat, 21 May 2022 10:43:49 +0100:

> Iron is Chrome without the google bits;
> https://www.srware.net/iron/
> (it's stuck at vn 49 for my XP box though)

chromium is the "opensource" part of "google chrome". if this is based
on "chrome" rather than "chromium", then there must be some deal with
google involved, and the source would not be released.

there was
https://github.com/Eloston/ungoogled-chromium/blob/master/README.md
which was opensource source and i could look at it. (looked at it and
decided to stick to webkit. the problem is in the w3c and what has now
replaced it because the poison starts there, funded by the usual
suspects)

i've tried pointing out that cookies is a red-herring these days with
browsers supporting what is called "local storage". an e.g. was you
could turn cookies off and still play wordle.

[I still do wordle from a local copy i downloaded months ago. i spotted
a news item on 2022-05-09 that the word of the day was "fetus", but it
came up on my copy only on 2022-05-17 (may 17)

https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2022/05/09/nyt-scrambles-to-do-damage-control-after-todays-wordle-turns-out-to-be-the-f-word-no-not-that-one/

i think there was a claim there that nyt hadn;t changed the wordlist
when they purchased it, but that was obviously false.

The full analysis of the many functions of Dutch "er" is here:
https://e-ans.ivdnt.org/topics/pid/ans08lingtopic
https://e-ans.ivdnt.org/topics/pid/ans0806lingtopic

In the Chapter for Bijwoorden, Adverbs.

The ANS (Algemene Nederlandse Spraakkunst; General Dutch Grammar) is
the official grammar of Dutch. Recently put on a more modern website,
and also the content is gradually being modernised.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Le 21/05/2022 à 20:06, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:00:13 PM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
>> Le 21/05/2022 à 16:32, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>>>
>>> So you still do not understand that we are not talking about Brits-on-the-street,
>>> but ACTORS attempting to talk like Americans.
>>
>> You have talked about that a lot. I don't know why. My remarks were
>> about the differences between everyday American and everyday English,
>> which are a matter of observation, not imitation.
>
> I've just gone all the way back to the beginning of this thread and looked
> at every message. On May 16, 2022, 9:53:20 AM (5 days ago), I introduced
> the topic (one of my favorites) [...]

Ah ! Soudain, tout s'explique.

I've said all I have to say, and that as clearly as I can. I can do no more.

On Sat, 21 May 2022 22:25:10 +0100
Paul Wolff <bounceme@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:

> On Sat, 21 May 2022, at 21:12:13, Kerr-Mudd, John posted:
> >Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
> >> On 21-May-22 1:54, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Thus quoth Wiktionary: "In linguistics, a grapheme is the smallest
> >> > functional unit of a writing system."
> >> >
> >> > So for English that'd be the full stop.
> >> >
> >> Or the pointed end of a steel nibbed pen.
> >>
> >> Taking the pen, ink and paper to be the complete writing system.
> >>
> >Werl, you'd be wanting a desk to go with that.
> >
> Or a raven.

Very Poer. Most unnoteworthy.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On Sat, 21 May 2022 21:22:42 +0100
Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

> On 21-May-22 16:38, Quinn C wrote:
> > * Peter T. Daniels:
> >
> >> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:40:12 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> >>> On 20/05/22 23:49, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:40:54 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> >>
> >>>>> You haven't supported that claim and no native BrE-speakers here
> >>>>> have confirmed it. The only transpondian difference in
> >>>>> pronunciation is the shift of the stress from the first (BrE) to
> >>>>> the second (AmE) syllable.
> >>>> The BrE pronunciation is more "authentic"? The stress shift occurred
> >>>> in AmE?!?!?!?!
> >>>
> >>> That's part of a fairly widespread phenomenon. Words of relatively
> >>> recent French origin tend to acquire final-syllable stress in AmE, but
> >>
> >> They don't "acquire" it. That's where the stress _is_ in French words
> >> (well, breath-groups). But in French it isn't phonemic, so Frenchpersons
> >> don't hear it and therefore claim it doesn't exist.
> >>
> >>> not in BrE. That's because the British, who have much greater exposure
> >>> to French, are more likely to copy the French pronunciation, while
> >>
> >> They do not copy the French pronunciation. They throw the stress
> >> onto the first syllable and screw up the vowels, as in "garridge."
> >
> > The one with stress on the first syllable, but an [a] in the second also
> > exists, and is common in some places (Australia?)
>
> He has been told, a score of times, that _both_ pronunciations are
> commonly used in BrE, and the same person might use either one,
> depending on the context.
>
> I'll stick to arguing with cats, it's more productive.
>
Charlie says "don't go swimming in the quarry, fetch me some kit-E-chunks. Now!"

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On Sun, 22 May 2022, at 09:39:40, Kerr-Mudd, John posted:
>Paul Wolff <bounceme@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 May 2022, at 21:12:13, Kerr-Mudd, John posted:
>> >Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>> >> On 21-May-22 1:54, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Thus quoth Wiktionary: "In linguistics, a grapheme is the smallest
>> >> > functional unit of a writing system."
>> >> >
>> >> > So for English that'd be the full stop.
>> >> >
>> >> Or the pointed end of a steel nibbed pen.
>> >>
>> >> Taking the pen, ink and paper to be the complete writing system.
>> >>
>> >Werl, you'd be wanting a desk to go with that.
>> >
>> Or a raven.
>
>Very Poer. Most unnoteworthy.
>
Croak? Either comes with inky quills for writing those notes.
--
Paul

In article <n8mi8h1hi7n385ie4caon0mnulabknpun0@4ax.com>, tonycooper214
@gmail.com says...
>
> On Sat, 21 May 2022 16:20:52 -0400, Quinn C
> <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
> >* Peter T. Daniels:
> >
> >> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:33:19 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> >>> On 20/05/22 22:47, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:39:19 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> >>>>> Le jeudi 19 mai 2022 à 23:09:49 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> >>>>>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 4:53:55 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> >>
> >>>>>>> But ptd seems to think that "kaff" is a possible BrE pronunciation
> >>>>>>> in "Le Café" (see upthread), whereas it's not.
> >>>>>> I'll ask again. Where the hell do you see "Le Café"?
> >>>>> My mistake, it was "The Cafe", but that doesn't change anything
> >>>>> as "café" and "cafe" are pronounced the same , i.e. as "kaffay".
> >>>> In French.
> >>>> In American English.
> >>>> Not necessarily, however, in British English.
> >>>
> >>> Yes, in British English too.
> >>>
> >>> The word "caff" has a different spelling.
> >>
> >> When would they have occasion to spell it?
> >
> >Even if seldom written - would people conceptualize "caf" as being a
> >variant of "cafe", or rather, a different word? I suspect the latter.
> >More likely a shortening of cafeteria, to start with.
>
> The discussion has been about the British use of the term "caff". It
> is descriptive of a certain *type* of establishment.
>
> I don't recall seeing "cafeteria" being used by Brits. The concept,
> yes, but not the word.
>
> If an American uses "caff", it would be a shortening of either cafe,
> café, or cafeteria, but it would not describe the *type* of
> establishment. Just a slangy shortening.
>
> obAUE: Authentic British contributor needed to confirm whether or not
> "cafeteria" is a word in general use in the UK.

Yes, very common.

"Arran High school has 25 classrooms as well as a workshop, a theatre,
a gym hall and dance studio, a fitness suite, a library, three support
rooms and a cafeteria."

Janet

On Sun, 22 May 2022 11:25:33 +0530
Madhu <enometh@meer.net> wrote:

>
> * "Kerr-Mudd, John" <20220521104349.537a2b779dfbeda07b3f699c @127.0.0.1> :
> Wrote on Sat, 21 May 2022 10:43:49 +0100:
>
> > Iron is Chrome without the google bits;
> > https://www.srware.net/iron/
> > (it's stuck at vn 49 for my XP box though)
>
> chromium is the "opensource" part of "google chrome". if this is based
> on "chrome" rather than "chromium", then there must be some deal with
> google involved, and the source would not be released.
>
> there was
> https://github.com/Eloston/ungoogled-chromium/blob/master/README.md
> which was opensource source and i could look at it. (looked at it and
> decided to stick to webkit. the problem is in the w3c and what has now
> replaced it because the poison starts there, funded by the usual
> suspects)
>
> i've tried pointing out that cookies is a red-herring these days with
> browsers supporting what is called "local storage". an e.g. was you
> could turn cookies off and still play wordle.
>
> [I still do wordle from a local copy i downloaded months ago. i spotted

I could give that a home; I wrote a DOS version, with the wordlist taken from
elsewhere; I don't get the same Word of the Day that others get.
(My select-'random'-word code is very poor).

> a news item on 2022-05-09 that the word of the day was "fetus", but it
> came up on my copy only on 2022-05-17 (may 17)
>
> https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2022/05/09/nyt-scrambles-to-do-damage-control-after-todays-wordle-turns-out-to-be-the-f-word-no-not-that-one/
>
> i think there was a claim there that nyt hadn;t changed the wordlist
> when they purchased it, but that was obviously false.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:00:57 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sat, 21 May 2022 17:31:34 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 3:50:16 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >...
> >
> >> "Cafeteria-style" is where the patrons go through a line pushing a
> >> tray along a rail, and point to and order the particular dishes they
> >> want. The food is handed over by an employee.
> >
> >Although in most cafeterias I've been to, some foods are available
> >in servings on plates etc., and customers help themselves.
> >
> In my experience (and I speak for no one else) the customer points or
> asks for something, the cafeteria worker puts a portion of that on the
> plate, the plate is then passed to the next cafeteria worker, the
> customer asks for somethng else to be added, and so on.
>
> The idea is that the plate has a main item (usually meat) and two or
> three vegetables and a bread/roll as added to the plate. The customer
> is choosing the mix.
>
> Some items - salads and desserts - come already plated or in small
> bowls, though.
....

Thanks for adding some detail to what I wrote.

--
Jerry Friedman

On Sun, 22 May 2022 09:51:03 +0100
Paul Wolff <bounceme@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:

> On Sun, 22 May 2022, at 09:39:40, Kerr-Mudd, John posted:
> >Paul Wolff <bounceme@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
> >> On Sat, 21 May 2022, at 21:12:13, Kerr-Mudd, John posted:
> >> >Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
> >> >> On 21-May-22 1:54, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Thus quoth Wiktionary: "In linguistics, a grapheme is the smallest
> >> >> > functional unit of a writing system."
> >> >> >
> >> >> > So for English that'd be the full stop.
> >> >> >
> >> >> Or the pointed end of a steel nibbed pen.
> >> >>
> >> >> Taking the pen, ink and paper to be the complete writing system.
> >> >>
> >> >Werl, you'd be wanting a desk to go with that.
> >> >
> >> Or a raven.
> >
> >Very Poer. Most unnoteworthy.
> >
> Croak? Either comes with inky quills for writing those notes.

"Poe wrote on both"
also Carroll said that they both produce flat notes.
> --
> Paul

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 1:17:32 AM UTC-4, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 22/05/2022 3:00 am, Tony Cooper wrote:
> > On Sat, 21 May 2022 17:31:34 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> > <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 3:50:16 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:

> >>> "Cafeteria-style" is where the patrons go through a line pushing a
> >>> tray along a rail, and point to and order the particular dishes they
> >>> want. The food is handed over by an employee.
> >> Although in most cafeterias I've been to, some foods are available
> >> in servings on plates etc., and customers help themselves.
> > In my experience (and I speak for no one else) the customer points or
> > asks for something, the cafeteria worker puts a portion of that on the
> > plate, the plate is then passed to the next cafeteria worker, the
> > customer asks for somethng else to be added, and so on.
>
> In my experience (and I speak for no one else) there is no
> general rule, and on entering an unfamiliar establishment one
> simply casts an exploratory eye over the layout, taking into
> account such factors as positioning of tills, tray stacks, tray
> rails, food cabinets, drinks machines, bloody great signs bearing
> instructions, staff positioning, customer queues, and other such
> helpful hints to work out how to acquire and pay for one's food,
> drink, or both with minimum fuss. There being a limited number of
> sensible possibilities, this is rarely a weighty burden on the
> intellectual prowess of even the establishment's densest patrons,
> and thus is the Empire forged and fed.

Not surprisingly, he has failed to understand the question.

He _describes_ a cafeteria but fails to say whether it is _called_
a "cafeteria" or maybe something like "tray restaurant."

On Sun, 22 May 2022 07:01:22 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 1:17:32 AM UTC-4, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>> On 22/05/2022 3:00 am, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> > On Sat, 21 May 2022 17:31:34 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
>> > <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 3:50:16 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>> >>> "Cafeteria-style" is where the patrons go through a line pushing a
>> >>> tray along a rail, and point to and order the particular dishes they
>> >>> want. The food is handed over by an employee.
>> >> Although in most cafeterias I've been to, some foods are available
>> >> in servings on plates etc., and customers help themselves.
>> > In my experience (and I speak for no one else) the customer points or
>> > asks for something, the cafeteria worker puts a portion of that on the
>> > plate, the plate is then passed to the next cafeteria worker, the
>> > customer asks for somethng else to be added, and so on.
>>
>> In my experience (and I speak for no one else) there is no
>> general rule, and on entering an unfamiliar establishment one
>> simply casts an exploratory eye over the layout, taking into
>> account such factors as positioning of tills, tray stacks, tray
>> rails, food cabinets, drinks machines, bloody great signs bearing
>> instructions, staff positioning, customer queues, and other such
>> helpful hints to work out how to acquire and pay for one's food,
>> drink, or both with minimum fuss. There being a limited number of
>> sensible possibilities, this is rarely a weighty burden on the
>> intellectual prowess of even the establishment's densest patrons,
>> and thus is the Empire forged and fed.
>
>Not surprisingly, he has failed to understand the question.
>
>He _describes_ a cafeteria but fails to say whether it is _called_
>a "cafeteria" or maybe something like "tray restaurant."

I agree with you, and have even added a post specifying the queston.
But, he was not the only one to not see the question.

My question is not about what is found in a business, school, or other
facility that serves just people in that facility. It is whether or
not there are public restaurants in the UK that are called
"cafeterias".

I know, because I've been in one, that the cafeteria style of serving
at least did exist in the UK, but I'm trying to determine if that's a
term that is used to describe a type of restaurant that the general
public can go to.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

On 22/05/2022 3:26 pm, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sun, 22 May 2022 07:01:22 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 1:17:32 AM UTC-4, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>> On 22/05/2022 3:00 am, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 17:31:34 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
>>>> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 3:50:16 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>
>>>>>> "Cafeteria-style" is where the patrons go through a line pushing a
>>>>>> tray along a rail, and point to and order the particular dishes they
>>>>>> want. The food is handed over by an employee.
>>>>> Although in most cafeterias I've been to, some foods are available
>>>>> in servings on plates etc., and customers help themselves.
>>>> In my experience (and I speak for no one else) the customer points or
>>>> asks for something, the cafeteria worker puts a portion of that on the
>>>> plate, the plate is then passed to the next cafeteria worker, the
>>>> customer asks for somethng else to be added, and so on.
>>>
>>> In my experience (and I speak for no one else) there is no
>>> general rule, and on entering an unfamiliar establishment one
>>> simply casts an exploratory eye over the layout, taking into
>>> account such factors as positioning of tills, tray stacks, tray
>>> rails, food cabinets, drinks machines, bloody great signs bearing
>>> instructions, staff positioning, customer queues, and other such
>>> helpful hints to work out how to acquire and pay for one's food,
>>> drink, or both with minimum fuss. There being a limited number of
>>> sensible possibilities, this is rarely a weighty burden on the
>>> intellectual prowess of even the establishment's densest patrons,
>>> and thus is the Empire forged and fed.
>>
>> Not surprisingly, he has failed to understand the question.
>>
>> He _describes_ a cafeteria but fails to say whether it is _called_
>> a "cafeteria" or maybe something like "tray restaurant."
>
> I agree with you,

Which by itself should have given you pause for thought.

> and have even added a post specifying the queston.
> But, he was not the only one to not see the question.

The question was of no interest to me. (Sorry.) But your phrase
"In my experience (and I speak for no one else)" caught my eye,
that's all. I therefore decided to ask myself a different
question - "What is *my* experience?" - and answer that instead.

> My question is not about what is found in a business, school, or other
> facility that serves just people in that facility. It is whether or
> not there are public restaurants in the UK that are called
> "cafeterias".

In my experience (and I speak for no one else), in the UK there
are cafeterias of all shapes, sizes, forms, and serving policies,
so the answer to your question is trivially "yes".

> I know, because I've been in one, that the cafeteria style of serving
> at least did exist in the UK, but I'm trying to determine if that's a
> term that is used to describe a type of restaurant that the general
> public can go to.

In my experience (and I speak for no one else), in the UK we
don't give a stuff what it's called. Whether it's a cafeteria by
your lights or no, whether you ask directions to the caff, cafe,
cafeteria, or canteen you'll get directions to the same place.
Whether you have to stand and wait for food to be ladelled onto a
plate or take the plate from a cabinet is all one.

Broadly speaking, if you might reasonably take your good lady
there as part of a romantic evening out, it's a restaurant;
otherwise, it's a cafe. That does not, of course, stop British
Home Stores from badging their cafeterias as restaurants. (Nor,
of course, does it stop some oiks from considering a Golden
Arches call a romantic evening out.)

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

* Tony Cooper:

> On Sun, 22 May 2022 01:04:48 +0100, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>
>>On 21-May-22 22:50, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> I don't recall seeing "cafeteria" being used by Brits. The concept,
>>> yes, but not the word.
>>
>>One of the terms for eating places for employees and other inmates.
>>
>>Canteen, cafeteria, staff dining room, refectory.
>
> In the US, there are restaurants that are cafeterias. For the public,
> not for the employees of a particular company.
>
> The same in the UK?

I assume IKEA restaurants look like that everywhere. But they call
themselves "restaurant", in the places I've been.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

* bil...@shaw.ca:

> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 1:21:00 PM UTC-7, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:33:19 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>> On 20/05/22 22:47, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:39:19 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>>>>>> Le jeudi 19 mai 2022 à 23:09:49 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>>>>>>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 4:53:55 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>> But ptd seems to think that "kaff" is a possible BrE pronunciation
>>>>>>>> in "Le Café" (see upthread), whereas it's not.
>>>>>>> I'll ask again. Where the hell do you see "Le Café"?
>>>>>> My mistake, it was "The Cafe", but that doesn't change anything
>>>>>> as "café" and "cafe" are pronounced the same , i.e. as "kaffay".
>>>>> In French.
>>>>> In American English.
>>>>> Not necessarily, however, in British English.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, in British English too.
>>>>
>>>> The word "caff" has a different spelling.
>>>
>>> When would they have occasion to spell it?
>> Even if seldom written - would people conceptualize "caf" as being a
>> variant of "cafe", or rather, a different word? I suspect the latter.
>> More likely a shortening of cafeteria, to start with.
>>
> Or of coffee with caffeine. Otherwise, how would you get decaf?

Different from cola, coffee with caffeine doesn't have it because it's
been caffeinated.

--
The need of a personal pronoun of the singular number and common
gender is so desperate, urgent, imperative, that ... it should long
since have grown on our speech -- The Atlantic Monthly (1878)

On Sun, 22 May 2022 00:58:12 +0100, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

>On 21-May-22 22:49, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 20:48:21 +0100, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 21-May-22 17:06, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:01:14 AM UTC-6, Paul Wolff wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022, at 01:57:44, Sam Plusnet posted:
>>>>>> On 20-May-22 20:40, Paul Wolff wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022, at 19:31:44, Sam Plusnet posted:
>>>>>>>> On 20-May-22 2:19, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 19/05/22 22:16, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Last night, watching a TV program, two different women said "oh em
>>>>>>>>>> gee". The program is a Canadian production set in Toronto.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They were mothers at a party for one mother's child's first
>>>>>>>>>> birthday.
>>>>>>>>> Social media - Usenet and its successors - are to blame for this. In
>>>>>>>>> online discussions it's natural to create abbreviations for common
>>>>>>>>> phrases. Eventually newcomers arrive who have little or no knowledge of
>>>>>>>>> the original phrase, and know only the abbreviation.
>>>>>>>>> It's very possible that some of the OMG users have no idea that gods
>>>>>>>>> were originally being invoked.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OK.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> O Krikey?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Was the telegraph the 'social media' of its day?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It certainly 'did' abbreviations - of one sort or another.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "How Old Cary Grant?"
>>>>>>
>>>>> "Fine". (We go full circle.)
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> The story I read in a book by Nigel Rees was that a reporter wired Cary Grant's
>>>> agent: "HOW OLD CARY GRANT". Grant saw the telegram and answered it
>>>> himself: "OLD CARY GRANT FINE HOW YOU".
>>>>
>>> All the more irritating for the reporter, since they had sent their
>>> original telegram 'reply paid'.
>>>
>>> As I'm in the middle of reading a history of Venice,
>>
>>
>> What history? I finished one just a few days ago (sorry, I don't
>> remember its name).
>
>In a bold stroke of originality, John Julius Norwich called it
>"A History of Venice".

Thanks. Not the one I read.

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 11:08:22 AM UTC-4, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 22/05/2022 3:26 pm, Tony Cooper wrote:
> > On Sun, 22 May 2022 07:01:22 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> > <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 1:17:32 AM UTC-4, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> >>> On 22/05/2022 3:00 am, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 17:31:34 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> >>>> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 3:50:16 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:

> >>>>>> "Cafeteria-style" is where the patrons go through a line pushing a
> >>>>>> tray along a rail, and point to and order the particular dishes they
> >>>>>> want. The food is handed over by an employee.
> >>>>> Although in most cafeterias I've been to, some foods are available
> >>>>> in servings on plates etc., and customers help themselves.
> >>>> In my experience (and I speak for no one else) the customer points or
> >>>> asks for something, the cafeteria worker puts a portion of that on the
> >>>> plate, the plate is then passed to the next cafeteria worker, the
> >>>> customer asks for somethng else to be added, and so on.
> >>> In my experience (and I speak for no one else) there is no
> >>> general rule, and on entering an unfamiliar establishment one
> >>> simply casts an exploratory eye over the layout, taking into
> >>> account such factors as positioning of tills, tray stacks, tray
> >>> rails, food cabinets, drinks machines, bloody great signs bearing
> >>> instructions, staff positioning, customer queues, and other such
> >>> helpful hints to work out how to acquire and pay for one's food,
> >>> drink, or both with minimum fuss. There being a limited number of
> >>> sensible possibilities, this is rarely a weighty burden on the
> >>> intellectual prowess of even the establishment's densest patrons,
> >>> and thus is the Empire forged and fed.
> >> Not surprisingly, he has failed to understand the question.
> >> He _describes_ a cafeteria but fails to say whether it is _called_
> >> a "cafeteria" or maybe something like "tray restaurant."
> > I agree with you,
> Which by itself should have given you pause for thought.
> > and have even added a post specifying the queston.
> > But, he was not the only one to not see the question.
>
> The question was of no interest to me. (Sorry.) But your phrase
> "In my experience (and I speak for no one else)" caught my eye,
> that's all. I therefore decided to ask myself a different
> question - "What is *my* experience?" - and answer that instead.

The egoist/solipsist has no idea how to participate in a newsgroup
discussion. Does that hold for in-person conversations as well?

> > My question is not about what is found in a business, school, or other
> > facility that serves just people in that facility. It is whether or
> > not there are public restaurants in the UK that are called
> > "cafeterias".
>
> In my experience (and I speak for no one else), in the UK there
> are cafeterias of all shapes, sizes, forms, and serving policies,
> so the answer to your question is trivially "yes".

What a master of chewing his cabbage twice.

> > I know, because I've been in one, that the cafeteria style of serving
> > at least did exist in the UK, but I'm trying to determine if that's a
> > term that is used to describe a type of restaurant that the general
> > public can go to.
>
> In my experience (and I speak for no one else), in the UK we
> don't give a stuff what it's called.

Bullshit.

> Whether it's a cafeteria by
> your lights or no, whether you ask directions to the caff, cafe,
> cafeteria, or canteen you'll get directions to the same place.
> Whether you have to stand and wait for food to be ladelled onto a
> plate or take the plate from a cabinet is all one.

Maybe he _doesn't_ know what a cafeteria is. Both of those ways
are integral parts of cafeteria service, as has been explained by
several people in this thread.

> Broadly speaking, if you might reasonably take your good lady
> there as part of a romantic evening out, it's a restaurant;
> otherwise, it's a cafe. That does not, of course, stop British
> Home Stores from badging their cafeterias as restaurants. (Nor,
> of course, does it stop some oiks from considering a Golden
> Arches call a romantic evening out.)

All cafeterias are restaurants. Why does he refuse to say whether
cafeterias are labeled "cafeteria" in wherever he is?

On Sun, 22 May 2022 16:08:17 +0100, Richard Heathfield
<rjh@cpax.org.uk> wrote:

Referring to agreeing with PTD:

>> I agree with you,
>
>Which by itself should have given you pause for thought.
>
Actually, I agree with PTD, or at least don't disagree, in much of his
posting. There are several areas of discussion here where his
expertise far exceeds mine.

Where we disagree I am not at all shy in voicing my disagreements, but
that doesn't mean I consider the source of the comment to be cause for
pause.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

On Sun, 22 May 2022, at 10:26:19, Tony Cooper posted:
>On Sun, 22 May 2022 07:01:22 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>>
>>Not surprisingly, he has failed to understand the question.

That's a bit harsh. He probably understood it but declined to answer it.
>>
>>He _describes_ a cafeteria but fails to say whether it is _called_
>>a "cafeteria" or maybe something like "tray restaurant."

"Fails" or more likely "decides".
>
>I agree with you, and have even added a post specifying the queston.
>But, he was not the only one to not see the question.
>
>My question is not about what is found in a business, school, or other
>facility that serves just people in that facility. It is whether or
>not there are public restaurants in the UK that are called
>"cafeterias".

I read that as asking whether those establishments had 'Cafeteria' in
their names. (Let's not get into 'their name is called...etc.) I'm not
aware of any these days, but fifty years ago it's possible that 'The
Golden Arch Cafeteria' (substitute your own suggestion) had an
existence.

But the word 'cafeteria' is well used by talking people in the UK. So
they may well be calling the establishment a cafeteria, even when the
proprietor isn't using the term. I'd say that 'cafeteria' is perfectly
apt in modern BrE for the meal-serving area of a franchised British
motorway service station, and that will be open to the whole of the
general British public.
>
>I know, because I've been in one, that the cafeteria style of serving
>at least did exist in the UK, but I'm trying to determine if that's a
>term that is used to describe a type of restaurant that the general
>public can go to.

It seldom comes up in my own conversations with friends. If it did, it
would imply an eatery within some sort of other organisation - as in my
para above.
--
Paul

On 22-May-22 1:13, Tony Cooper wrote:
> It is the westernmost key in the chain, but not by much. It is the
> southernmost city in the contiguous U.S., so if geographical placement
> was the determiner, it would be Key South, not Key West.

A minor quibble, but an island isn't exactly part of the "contiguous U.S.".

Does an island stop being an island if you build a bridge connecting it
to the mainland?

--
Sam Plusnet