Just started with monk, got vorpal blade from sacrifice at orcish mines.
Is it good ? How far can I enhance swords ?
Shall I use it all the time from now on and forget about fighting
without any weapon as I did so far ?

Thanks for your hints !

On 22.01.2022 09:15, Isidore Ducasse wrote:
> Just started with monk, got vorpal blade from sacrifice at orcish mines.
> Is it good ?

It's okay. Long swords do good damage. And that artifact beheads
monsters with 10% probability; if you survive that long in melee
with monsters. If I'd have enough food to altar camp for divine
gifts I'd continue sacrificing until I get something better. Mind
that in all granted weapons' classes monks will only be able to
get Basic proficiency.

> How far can I enhance swords ?

Monks are restricted in most weapons, so they are in long swords,
but since you had been gifted that artifact you can get to Basic.

> Shall I use it all the time from now on and forget about fighting
> without any weapon as I did so far ?

I prefer to train monks' martial arts proficiency. While doing that
occasionally switch to the sword to get your long sword proficiency
enhanced to Basic.

If you happen to get Mjollnir I'd certainly prefer that. The other
good artifacts available to monks, like Firebrand or Frostbrand,
should be enchanted to be most effective. The Magicbane might also
be worth to use. Werebane is a good option for its silver bonus
against were-creatures (or later for demons and vampires). So far
for the neutral and unaligned artifacts.

Janis

On 22.01.2022 09:33, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 22.01.2022 09:15, Isidore Ducasse wrote:
>> Just started with monk, got vorpal blade from sacrifice at orcish mines.
>> Is it good ?
>
> It's okay. Long swords do good damage. [...]

This page may help you to compare artifacts once you've got more than
one: http://nh.gridbug.de/artifacts.html

Janis

Janis is correct on calling it "okay".

It does have a +1d5 to hit bonus (against everything) which is an important property, kinda almost more important than damage. Remember, hitting more often deals more damage overall, after all!

It only has +1 damage, which is real low for an artifact weapon. It has behading sometimes, which is obviously "more damage" in that you can rarely get mortal damage that just kills something outright.

Janis is correct, it should be used as a bridge to get a better artifact weapon. Kill easy monsters with it to get it from unskilled to basic. Then keep sacrificing (and killing things with it, to sacrifice for a better weapon.

The other option as janis says is to continue to do martial arts and advance that. This depends on what stage of the game you're at. In the early game bonus to hit is incredibly important, and becomes less important as time goes on, your luck increases, you throw gems at unicorns, you get a luckstone, etc.

Monks can get and advance lots of spells. You might use your pet a lot. I don't know what you do.

SInce I'm a fighter type, I would vorpal and sacrifice to get a better artifact weapon. May require you going to sokoban. Vorpal is enough to kill most anything in sokoban if you are level 6 or below. (If your level gets too high, the monsters get to be higher level).

Killing everything in sight with vorpal is tempting, but you will get tougher and tougher monsters. Use spells, avoid, use pet, dodge, avoid, get to sokoban, get reflection or bag and food, come back sacrifice and try to get something better.

-Chris

On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 3:37:53 AM UTC-5, Janis wrote:
> On 22.01.2022 09:33, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> > On 22.01.2022 09:15, Isidore Ducasse wrote:
> >> Just started with monk, got vorpal blade from sacrifice at orcish mines.
> >> Is it good ?
> >
> > It's okay. Long swords do good damage. [...]
>
> This page may help you to compare artifacts once you've got more than
> one: http://nh.gridbug.de/artifacts.html
>
> Janis

Am 22.01.2022 um 09:15 schrieb Isidore Ducasse:
> Just started with monk, got vorpal blade from sacrifice at orcish mines.
> Is it good ? How far can I enhance swords ?
> Shall I use it all the time from now on and forget about fighting
> without any weapon as I did so far ?
>
> Thanks for your hints !
>

A major advantage of getting Vorpal Blade is that if you make it to the
Astral Plane none of the adventurer characters there can wield it
against you to behead you instantly. (I usually don't wear an amulet of
life saving there, if I need one for reflection.)

On 26.01.2022 07:43, Klaus Kassner wrote:
>
> A major advantage of getting Vorpal Blade is that if you make it to the
> Astral Plane none of the adventurer characters there can wield it
> against you to behead you instantly.

Yeah, that can be a bad experience for the unaware.

The player characters at Astral are quite tough, they engage you while
all the angels and priests are also on you. That's why I just teleport
them away; makes my life easier in that nasty area (and I need not care
about the chance of the Vorpal Blade being weld in their hand).

Janis

Thank you for the tips !
I've tried and got dragonbane, which is worse I think. Then I stopped sacrifice
because I'm afraid the odds of getting a third artefact become very low
and I'll have to wait for a veeeery long time (don't have create monsters).

I'm XP11 and close to starting the quest, I think I'll continue with vorpal.

Thanks

On 26.01.2022 18:23, Isidore Ducasse wrote:
> Thank you for the tips !
> I've tried and got dragonbane, which is worse I think. Then I stopped sacrifice
> because I'm afraid the odds of getting a third artefact become very low
> and I'll have to wait for a veeeery long time (don't have create monsters).

The odds are not too bad. But then, what if you get another lousy one?
;-)

Janis

On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 1:02:51 PM UTC-5, Janis wrote:
> On 26.01.2022 18:23, Isidore Ducasse wrote:
> > Thank you for the tips !
> > I've tried and got dragonbane, which is worse I think. Then I stopped sacrifice
> > because I'm afraid the odds of getting a third artefact become very low
> > and I'll have to wait for a veeeery long time (don't have create monsters).
> The odds are not too bad. But then, what if you get another lousy one?
> ;-)
>
> Janis

You can keep going. You can just keep going. Two is easy. Three is harder. However, it's real hard after four I've found. Three is easy. Four is okay. Getting a fifth artifact is tough. Your thoughts Janis?

This is also heavily influenced by "create monster" spell. If you have THAt any amount of sacrifices can be fine...

On 27.01.2022 01:52, Chris Bowers wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 1:02:51 PM UTC-5, Janis wrote:
>> On 26.01.2022 18:23, Isidore Ducasse wrote:
>>> Thank you for the tips ! I've tried and got dragonbane, which is
>>> worse I think. Then I stopped sacrifice because I'm afraid the
>>> odds of getting a third artefact become very low and I'll have to
>>> wait for a veeeery long time (don't have create monsters).
>> The odds are not too bad. But then, what if you get another lousy
>> one? ;-)
>
> You can keep going. You can just keep going. Two is easy. Three is
> harder. However, it's real hard after four I've found. Three is easy.
> Four is okay. Getting a fifth artifact is tough. Your thoughts
> Janis?

I may be a pathological case and thus not a sensible sample for
comparison. ;-)

Once I've managed the food issue, I sacrifice at an altar until I
get a decent artifact weapon; in case of a disappointing series
of only lousy or inappropriate artifacts I continue even beyond
five (or more) already got artifacts, if I think it's necessary
(or convenient) for my character.

But since altar camping at that stage isn't something to suggest
unconditionally I abstain from suggesting it. Only my and others'
experience that there's obviously too many lousy artifacts should
be mentioned, so that (in an attempt to get a better artifact) a
player is not too disappointed or brings himself in danger when
trying to get a good artifact during altar campings while odds
are bad.

>
> This is also heavily influenced by "create monster" spell. If you
> have THAt any amount of sacrifices can be fine...

You need sufficient food for that (or eat some of the bigger
monsters created). I also keep a couple cursed scrolls of create
monster, or leave one charge in an (identified) wand of create
monster to break it for more outcome; but that requires that you
can handle hordes of tough monsters, or have something to burn
the E-word (in NH-343, or Slash'em, not sure about NH-36x).

Janis

On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 2:21:12 AM UTC-5, Janis wrote:
> On 27.01.2022 01:52, Chris Bowers wrote:
> > On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 1:02:51 PM UTC-5, Janis wrote:
> >> On 26.01.2022 18:23, Isidore Ducasse wrote:
> >>> Thank you for the tips ! I've tried and got dragonbane, which is
> >>> worse I think. Then I stopped sacrifice because I'm afraid the
> >>> odds of getting a third artefact become very low and I'll have to
> >>> wait for a veeeery long time (don't have create monsters).
> >> The odds are not too bad. But then, what if you get another lousy
> >> one? ;-)
> >
> > You can keep going. You can just keep going. Two is easy. Three is
> > harder. However, it's real hard after four I've found. Three is easy.
> > Four is okay. Getting a fifth artifact is tough. Your thoughts
> > Janis?
> I may be a pathological case and thus not a sensible sample for
> comparison. ;-)
>
> Once I've managed the food issue, I sacrifice at an altar until I
> get a decent artifact weapon; in case of a disappointing series
> of only lousy or inappropriate artifacts I continue even beyond
> five (or more) already got artifacts, if I think it's necessary
> (or convenient) for my character.
>
> But since altar camping at that stage isn't something to suggest
> unconditionally I abstain from suggesting it. Only my and others'
> experience that there's obviously too many lousy artifacts should
> be mentioned, so that (in an attempt to get a better artifact) a
> player is not too disappointed or brings himself in danger when
> trying to get a good artifact during altar campings while odds
> are bad.
> >
> > This is also heavily influenced by "create monster" spell. If you
> > have THAt any amount of sacrifices can be fine...
> You need sufficient food for that (or eat some of the bigger
> monsters created). I also keep a couple cursed scrolls of create
> monster, or leave one charge in an (identified) wand of create
> monster to break it for more outcome; but that requires that you
> can handle hordes of tough monsters, or have something to burn
> the E-word (in NH-343, or Slash'em, not sure about NH-36x).
>
> Janis

Right. There were a few games I ascended (very rarely) with a normal weapon all the way enchanted. This was because I didn't have the patience for sacrificing for artifacts beyond four. So this is super super rare that you don't get something decent after four gifts. But it does happen.

*sigh* YASD: first time I see Master Kean, and he hits really hard !
He froze me and I couldn't do anything... Reflection was not enough :-(
I thought somehow that the starting robe was MR, or tbh, I don't
understand that much the specifics of MR vs. reflection, well I should
learn...

On 29.01.2022 11:50, Isidore Ducasse wrote:
> *sigh* YASD: first time I see Master Kean, and he hits really hard !
> He froze me and I couldn't do anything... Reflection was not enough :-(
> I thought somehow that the starting robe was MR, or tbh, I don't
> understand that much the specifics of MR vs. reflection, well I should
> learn...

My condolences. It may soothe you to know that Kaen is one of the most
dangerous quest nemeses. It needs precaution, preparation and a tactic;
if you don't mind to get spoiled have a look into the Wiki, otherwise
think about possibilities how to (preferable completely) _avoid_ melee
with him.

There's more in Nethack than only MR and reflection; the paralysis you
experienced was a clerical spell he casted at you. He has a couple more
very effective spells.

Janis

On Saturday, January 29, 2022 at 1:40:42 PM UTC-8, Janis wrote:
> There's more in Nethack than only MR and reflection; the paralysis you
> experienced was a clerical spell he casted at you. He has a couple more
> very effective spells.

Both magic resistance and free action protect against the
paralyze spell.

Magic resistance does not protect against a thrown potion
of paralysis though. Free action does.

Master Kaen is indeed a monster of a beast. He's just so hard.

Only thing harder are the riders, demogorgon, and some of the demons.

You have to really be on your game to fight Master Kaen. I NEVER fight him before I do the castle and wish up the very best stuff.

If I were playing wishless I'd do the entire rest of the game first (including the quest but excluding him and his level) and scum for more items to fight him that way.

You need ac above -20. You need 200hp minimum. You need reflection, magic resistance, and some hefty damage by weapon or spell. He doesn't respect elbereth because he's a human, can't be stoned with a cockatrice. He sometimes starts with a cloak of magic resistance, and has magic resistance himself if he has the quest artifact, which is likely. He heals himself continually and summons insects at will. He's a real bad monkey. He does 16d2+16d2 damage+1d4 for an average of 18 points per turn, plus, he's fast.

Boulder forts, scroll of scare monster, and attack spells and wands of frost/fire/lightning work well on him. If you are a chaotic monk, stormbringer max enchanted is great. Other options are firebrand/frostbrand/mjollnir. For lawfuls excalibur and greyswandir. I wouldn't use martial arts on him unless you are grandmaster and double speeded.
Look to damage increasing items such as rings of increase damage and gauntlets of power. Wand of death also works.

Always have escape means of teleport, cursed potions of gain level (for a hasty exit). Scrolls of teleport while confused will levelport you out.

Wiki says polymorphing him is also an option.

You've faced one of the worst bosses in Nethack and lost. There's no shame in it. Master Kaen kicked my ass first time too.

On 30.01.2022 07:58, Chris Bowers wrote:
> Master Kaen is indeed a monster of a beast. He's just so hard.
>
> Only thing harder are the riders, demogorgon, and some of the
> demons.

In Slashem there's generally a Demogorgon level so I regularly
meet that demon. The good thing is that it respects Elbereth
(don't know about Elbereth in recent Nethack versions), where
Kaen doesn't. That's why I consider Kaen even worse than big D.

>
> Boulder forts, scroll of scare monster, and attack spells and wands
> of frost/fire/lightning work well on him. If you are a chaotic monk,
> stormbringer max enchanted is great. Other options are
> firebrand/frostbrand/mjollnir. For lawfuls excalibur and greyswandir.
> I wouldn't use martial arts on him unless you are grandmaster and
> double speeded. Look to damage increasing items such as rings of
> increase damage and gauntlets of power. Wand of death also works.

Once he's "awaken" he will immediately pick up the quest artifact
and get MR (unless he already had it from a cloak), so he's immune
to death. Even if you succeed in getting in a straight line without
him noticing you, if your wand misses (I think) he will "wake up".

>
> Always have escape means of teleport, cursed potions of gain level
> (for a hasty exit). Scrolls of teleport while confused will levelport
> you out.

I'm not a big fan, to say the least, of escaping him. If you come
back you have to start the process again. Moreover, typically he's
adjacent to you and will accompany you on level-teleport "escapes".
Getting confused usually needs an extra turn; that may be deadly
and better spent in teleporting him away - a couple attempts may
be necessary if he immediately comes back - to escape without him.
The instant(!) level-escape is an option if you enter his lair by
accident through a trapdoor; since you want to cover the stairs
and not let Kaen get to that tactical position.

I think it's better to have a plan that reliably works, and the
intention to kill him on the first date you have with him.

Janis

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 5:37:47 AM UTC-5, Janis wrote:
> On 30.01.2022 07:58, Chris Bowers wrote:
> > Master Kaen is indeed a monster of a beast. He's just so hard.
> >
> > Only thing harder are the riders, demogorgon, and some of the
> > demons.
> In Slashem there's generally a Demogorgon level so I regularly
> meet that demon. The good thing is that it respects Elbereth
> (don't know about Elbereth in recent Nethack versions), where
> Kaen doesn't. That's why I consider Kaen even worse than big D.
> >
> > Boulder forts, scroll of scare monster, and attack spells and wands
> > of frost/fire/lightning work well on him. If you are a chaotic monk,
> > stormbringer max enchanted is great. Other options are
> > firebrand/frostbrand/mjollnir. For lawfuls excalibur and greyswandir.
> > I wouldn't use martial arts on him unless you are grandmaster and
> > double speeded. Look to damage increasing items such as rings of
> > increase damage and gauntlets of power. Wand of death also works.
> Once he's "awaken" he will immediately pick up the quest artifact
> and get MR (unless he already had it from a cloak), so he's immune
> to death. Even if you succeed in getting in a straight line without
> him noticing you, if your wand misses (I think) he will "wake up".

True.

> > Always have escape means of teleport, cursed potions of gain level
> > (for a hasty exit). Scrolls of teleport while confused will levelport
> > you out.
> I'm not a big fan, to say the least, of escaping him. If you come
> back you have to start the process again.

I escape quest nemesis all the time. You fight them and you're not sure how tough they will be or how powerful you are. So you try it. If it starts to go real bad, you get out of there. Go do the castle or whatever else. Come back later, stronger.

Moreover, typically he's
> adjacent to you and will accompany you on level-teleport "escapes".
> Getting confused usually needs an extra turn; that may be deadly
> and better spent in teleporting him away - a couple attempts may
> be necessary if he immediately comes back - to escape without him.
> The instant(!) level-escape is an option if you enter his lair by
> accident through a trapdoor; since you want to cover the stairs
> and not let Kaen get to that tactical position.

Yes. Step 1 wand of teleport you away. Step 2. confuse self, step 3, read scroll of teleport to GET YOU OFF THE LEVEL. Or if he follows you upstairs or escapes upstairs.

> I think it's better to have a plan that reliably works, and the
> intention to kill him on the first date you have with him.
>
> Janis

Of course. But we all make mistakes. If you plan for mistakes and have escape routes, often you don't need them. But if you do: they are there.

-Chris

On 30.01.2022 11:50, Chris Bowers wrote:
> On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 5:37:47 AM UTC-5, Janis wrote:
>> I'm not a big fan, to say the least, of escaping him. If you come
>> back you have to start the process again.
>
> I escape quest nemesis all the time. You fight them and you're not
> sure how tough they will be or how powerful you are. So you try it.
> If it starts to go real bad, you get out of there. Go do the castle
> or whatever else. Come back later, stronger.

That's certainly sensible as suggestions for the unexperienced or
unspoiled players.

In case of Kaen I feel the need for a plan in the first place,
since his attacks require more than just a bit more AC or weapon
enchantments or some additional tool. Either I don't have what I
need, then I wait - and don't go in a "first round" with him -,
or I am prepared then I just do all necessary procedures to kill
him.

>
>> Moreover, typically he's
>> adjacent to you and will accompany you on level-teleport "escapes".
>> Getting confused usually needs an extra turn; that may be deadly
>> and better spent in teleporting him away - a couple attempts may be
>> necessary if he immediately comes back - to escape without him. The
>> instant(!) level-escape is an option if you enter his lair by
>> accident through a trapdoor; since you want to cover the stairs and
>> not let Kaen get to that tactical position.
>
> Yes. Step 1 wand of teleport you away.

Usually I teleport the foe away (not me), which works also on
no-teleport levels. In case of Kaen I also want to stay on the
stairs, even if escape is the tactical plan - and then there's
even no confusion or scrolls necessary, just go upstairs while
he's dislocated and non-adjacent any more.

> Step 2. confuse self, step 3,
> read scroll of teleport to GET YOU OFF THE LEVEL. Or if he follows
> you upstairs or escapes upstairs.

>> I think it's better to have a plan that reliably works, and the
>> intention to kill him on the first date you have with him.
>
> Of course. But we all make mistakes. If you plan for mistakes and
> have escape routes, often you don't need them. But if you do: they
> are there.

Sure.

Janis

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 9:47:57 AM UTC-5, Janis wrote:
> On 30.01.2022 11:50, Chris Bowers wrote:
> > On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 5:37:47 AM UTC-5, Janis wrote:
> >> I'm not a big fan, to say the least, of escaping him. If you come
> >> back you have to start the process again.
> >
> > I escape quest nemesis all the time. You fight them and you're not
> > sure how tough they will be or how powerful you are. So you try it.
> > If it starts to go real bad, you get out of there. Go do the castle
> > or whatever else. Come back later, stronger.
> That's certainly sensible as suggestions for the unexperienced or
> unspoiled players.
>
> In case of Kaen I feel the need for a plan in the first place,
> since his attacks require more than just a bit more AC or weapon
> enchantments or some additional tool. Either I don't have what I
> need, then I wait - and don't go in a "first round" with him -,
> or I am prepared then I just do all necessary procedures to kill
> him.
> >
> >> Moreover, typically he's
> >> adjacent to you and will accompany you on level-teleport "escapes".
> >> Getting confused usually needs an extra turn; that may be deadly
> >> and better spent in teleporting him away - a couple attempts may be
> >> necessary if he immediately comes back - to escape without him. The
> >> instant(!) level-escape is an option if you enter his lair by
> >> accident through a trapdoor; since you want to cover the stairs and
> >> not let Kaen get to that tactical position.
> >
> > Yes. Step 1 wand of teleport you away.
> Usually I teleport the foe away (not me), which works also on
> no-teleport levels. In case of Kaen I also want to stay on the
> stairs, even if escape is the tactical plan - and then there's
> even no confusion or scrolls necessary, just go upstairs while
> he's dislocated and non-adjacent any more.
> > Step 2. confuse self, step 3,
> > read scroll of teleport to GET YOU OFF THE LEVEL. Or if he follows
> > you upstairs or escapes upstairs.
>
> >> I think it's better to have a plan that reliably works, and the
> >> intention to kill him on the first date you have with him.
> >
> > Of course. But we all make mistakes. If you plan for mistakes and
> > have escape routes, often you don't need them. But if you do: they
> > are there.
> Sure.
>
> Janis

Now that I play a variety of roles. I often don't spoil myself about the quest nemesis, or I forget who they are and don't look it up. (More fun that way). Just now I fought the quest nemesis in the Arc quest (minion) two weaponing with Excalibur +6, Silver Sabre +2, and a ring of increase damage +4.. I was able to sneak up on him and stand next to him and suprise him immediately. He was completley kicked off balance, and instantly teleported to the upstairs (as I did so much damage) leaving the orb behind. I walked back to the upstairs. I approached him, and He went down in three turns. Two weapon, silver damage, the enchantments, and of course the ring of increase damage (which applies to both attacks) was just too much for him.

I remember that when I was doing the ranger quest, I knew the nemesis was scorpius but I couldn't remember what he was. I was kind of scared. He's..... a scorpion. Just a scorpion. His ac is 10. It's pathetic. He can poison you and give you sickness (which you can instantly cure with a unicorn horn).. My ac was only -15 and he couldn't even hit me. I even felt sorry for him.. His average damage (if he could even hit you) is 7.
SEVEN. The average damage he does is seven damage. If he could hit you. Which he likely can't. Pathetic!

-Chris

Am 30.01.2022 um 15:47 schrieb Janis Papanagnou:
> On 30.01.2022 11:50, Chris Bowers wrote:
>> On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 5:37:47 AM UTC-5, Janis wrote:
>>> I'm not a big fan, to say the least, of escaping him. If you come
>>> back you have to start the process again.

I second that. Don't meet him before sufficiently prepared. If you
manage to paralyse him with a potion (preferably wearing a ring of free
action), you don't even need a weapon to beat him, at least in slash'em.
Apply a few of the particular techniques that a sufficiently high-level
monk has available, attacking with a chained blitz action that allows
you to concatenate several martial arts moves. You can kill him with two
hits this way. Monks need artifact weapons only if dealing with several
enemies in short succession or at once. (If the technique is available,
a monk should be able to kill any of the riders with a single hit. The
Wizard of Yendor with two. Unfortunately, it takes time to regenerate
the technique, and it is easy to enter incorrect sequences of chained
blitz. You simply have to know your martial arts well...)

>>
>> Yes. Step 1 wand of teleport you away.
>
> Usually I teleport the foe away (not me), which works also on
> no-teleport levels. In case of Kaen I also want to stay on the
> stairs, even if escape is the tactical plan - and then there's
> even no confusion or scrolls necessary, just go upstairs while
> he's dislocated and non-adjacent any more.

Teleporting away may not be a good strategy when you are already low at
hitpoints and your opponent is fast. My only death to a quest nemesis
ever was to Maugneshaagar, who apparently cursed my blessed bag of
holding, so I lost some speed. (Of course, I should have put the bag
into a sack, but this was my first Necromancer making it to the quest,
and I did not know that he is a curse-caster.) Instead of engraving
Elbereth, which would have saved me, I teleported him away to move up
the stairs. I managed to "teleport him away" twice, but he was next to
me immediately after each teleport, and I was at two hit points after
the second time, so he killed me. I never could get a move in to take
the stairs up. My calculation had been that being fast myself, two
teleports would give me at least one move to go upstairs. Anyway, later
I realized that being a "&", he did respect Elbereth, and I had had a
wand of fire...

On 30.01.2022 21:16, Chris Bowers wrote:
>
> Now that I play a variety of roles. I often don't spoil myself about
> the quest nemesis, or I forget who they are and don't look it up.
> (More fun that way). Just now I fought the quest nemesis in the Arc
> quest (minion) two weaponing with Excalibur +6, Silver Sabre +2, and
> a ring of increase damage +4. I was able to sneak up on him and stand
> next to him and suprise him immediately. He was completley kicked off
> balance, and instantly teleported to the upstairs (as I did so much
> damage) leaving the orb behind. I walked back to the upstairs. I
> approached him, and He went down in three turns. Two weapon, silver
> damage, the enchantments, and of course the ring of increase damage
> (which applies to both attacks) was just too much for him.

Something similar happened to me not too long ago (in Slashem) with
a Samurai. I had an army of minions and didn't want them to get in
my way of zapping the Samurai nemesis with death (or something else,
maybe sleep, don't recall). But I failed to keep the minions at
distance, and they woke him up even before I got adjacent. The nice
part was that they obviously dealt so much damage that he left the
Tsurugi behind when he instantly teleported to the stairs. I took
it, stashed it away, and when the nemesis came back he died after
a single hit.

>
> [Scorpious]

The good thing with that scorpion is that is respects Elbereth, an
instant defense measure applicable. (Not applicable with Kaen or
other humans.)

Janis

On 30.01.2022 21:57, Klaus Kassner wrote:
>
> I second that. Don't meet him before sufficiently prepared. If you
> manage to paralyse him with a potion (preferably wearing a ring of free
> action), you don't even need a weapon to beat him, at least in slash'em.
> Apply a few of the particular techniques that a sufficiently high-level
> monk has available, attacking with a chained blitz action that allows
> you to concatenate several martial arts moves. You can kill him with two
> hits this way. Monks need artifact weapons only if dealing with several
> enemies in short succession or at once. (If the technique is available,
> a monk should be able to kill any of the riders with a single hit. The
> Wizard of Yendor with two. Unfortunately, it takes time to regenerate
> the technique, and it is easy to enter incorrect sequences of chained
> blitz. You simply have to know your martial arts well...)

Frankly, I haven't yet succeeded with the martial arts techniques
_interface_. I tried it once or twice but it didn't work, yet not
as I'd expected. So I abstained from using techniques at all (call
it one hand behind ones back technique for not using techniques :-).
I actually play monks just conventionally (simple martial arts and
artifact weapons in Slashem, and only artifact weapons formerly in
Nethack).

>
> Teleporting away may not be a good strategy when you are already low at
> hitpoints and your opponent is fast.

Absolutely correct. It's more an issue if you accidentally have got
Kaen adjacent (by accidentally losing a turn or opening the boulder
fort in the heat of the fight), so that you can fix that mishap.

Janis

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 4:26:53 PM UTC-5, Janis wrote:
> On 30.01.2022 21:57, Klaus Kassner wrote:
> >
> > I second that. Don't meet him before sufficiently prepared. If you
> > manage to paralyse him with a potion (preferably wearing a ring of free
> > action), you don't even need a weapon to beat him, at least in slash'em.
> > Apply a few of the particular techniques that a sufficiently high-level
> > monk has available, attacking with a chained blitz action that allows
> > you to concatenate several martial arts moves. You can kill him with two
> > hits this way. Monks need artifact weapons only if dealing with several
> > enemies in short succession or at once. (If the technique is available,
> > a monk should be able to kill any of the riders with a single hit. The
> > Wizard of Yendor with two. Unfortunately, it takes time to regenerate
> > the technique, and it is easy to enter incorrect sequences of chained
> > blitz. You simply have to know your martial arts well...)
> Frankly, I haven't yet succeeded with the martial arts techniques
> _interface_. I tried it once or twice but it didn't work, yet not
> as I'd expected. So I abstained from using techniques at all (call
> it one hand behind ones back technique for not using techniques :-).
> I actually play monks just conventionally (simple martial arts and
> artifact weapons in Slashem, and only artifact weapons formerly in
> Nethack).
> >
> > Teleporting away may not be a good strategy when you are already low at
> > hitpoints and your opponent is fast.
> Absolutely correct. It's more an issue if you accidentally have got
> Kaen adjacent (by accidentally losing a turn or opening the boulder
> fort in the heat of the fight), so that you can fix that mishap.
>
> Janis
I like teleporting self. In 3.6x teleporting an opponent may not work. But teleporting yourself is 100% guaranteed
..

So the potion of paralysis looks like a terrible thing, as many monsters
can throw them, even in the early game ?

Does it mean that as soon as I can get a ring of free action, I should
keep it on all the time ?

Glancing at the wiki, I didn't had the feeling that this ring was that
much important...

On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 1:47:44 AM UTC-5, Isidore Ducasse wrote:
> So the potion of paralysis looks like a terrible thing, as many monsters
> can throw them, even in the early game ?
>
> Does it mean that as soon as I can get a ring of free action, I should
> keep it on all the time ?
>
> Glancing at the wiki, I didn't had the feeling that this ring was that
> much important...

It really depends. The chance of a thrown potion is very rare. But there are other forms of paralysis. Some people do prize the ring and simply keep it on the whole game. It's also great early game as it protects against floating eyes if you don't have reflection.

When I encounter it late game and I have 400 HP and -45 Armor Class and magic resistance and reflection, paralysis isn't such a big issue. But paralysis does happen and some people really like the item.

As well you can WIELD a potion of paralysis, smashing things with it. If you're wearing a ring of free action it won't paralyze you, but will be guaranteed to hit the opponent, and a very good chance to paralyze the opponent.. People use this on Orcus so he won't use up charges from his wand of death. Also applicable if you happen to encounter Demogorgon. The riders are immune but most of the other greater demons are not. Another situation to use this

The wizard used to be susceptible to it in early versions of nethack. People would hit the wizard of yendor and leave him on a lower level, which would freeze him there and he couldn't harass you the rest of the game. (That exploit has been taken out of the current game). Still it's a great strategy to use for "double trouble" (when faced with TWO wizards).

-Chris