On 01.02.2022 07:47, Isidore Ducasse wrote:
> So the potion of paralysis looks like a terrible thing, as many monsters
> can throw them, even in the early game ?

Yes. Early or late, monsters can severely spoil your character or simply
just kill you. Early and late game.

>
> Does it mean that as soon as I can get a ring of free action, I should
> keep it on all the time ?

That's what I do. (The difficulty is to get one in the first place.)

>
> Glancing at the wiki, I didn't had the feeling that this ring was that
> much important...

The Wiki is yet for information not for feelings. :-)

Janis

Am 31.01.2022 um 02:55 schrieb Chris Bowers:
> On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 4:26:53 PM UTC-5, Janis wrote:
>> On 30.01.2022 21:57, Klaus Kassner wrote:
>>>

>>> Teleporting away may not be a good strategy when you are already low at
>>> hitpoints and your opponent is fast.
>> Absolutely correct. It's more an issue if you accidentally have got
>> Kaen adjacent (by accidentally losing a turn or opening the boulder
>> fort in the heat of the fight), so that you can fix that mishap.
>>
>> Janis
>
> I like teleporting self. In 3.6x teleporting an opponent may not work. But teleporting yourself is 100% guaranteed
> .

On a no-teleport level it is 100% guaranteed to fail... (unless you are
in wizard mode, of course). Well, on Kaen's level teleportation is
allowed. But where do you teleport to, if you were already on the
upstairs? He will follow you swiftly, if you teleport inside the level,
so you will not save yourself, if you had already problems to begin
with, and immediately, if you level teleport and he was next to you.

> On a no-teleport level it is 100% guaranteed to fail... (unless you are
> in wizard mode, of course). Well, on Kaen's level teleportation is
> allowed. But where do you teleport to, if you were already on the
> upstairs? He will follow you swiftly, if you teleport inside the level,
> so you will not save yourself, if you had already problems to begin
> with, and immediately, if you level teleport and he was next to you.

Right. So against Master Kaen, you zap teleport on yourself. That's 100% success.

He will follow you swiftly, if you teleport inside the level,
> so you will not save yourself, if you had already problems to begin
> with,

That is not true. It takes time for him to teleport to you. The teleports happen about once every 5 turns.

Teleporting away from him gives you a few turns before he teleports next to you and hits you again. So you zap teleport at yourself. Then you confuse yourself with a forgotten spell (1 turn). Then you level teleport with a scroll of teleport (1 turn to read). And you're safe.

>And immediately, if you level teleport and he was next to you.

I don't know what this means. Are you saying he levelports WITH you?

I've never seen this.

But I have used the above strategy on many teleporting bosses (including to escape demogorgon) and it works great.

On 02.02.2022 02:09, Chris Bowers wrote:
>
>> On a no-teleport level it is 100% guaranteed to fail... (unless you
>> are in wizard mode, of course). Well, on Kaen's level teleportation
>> is allowed. But where do you teleport to, if you were already on
>> the upstairs? He will follow you swiftly, if you teleport inside
>> the level, so you will not save yourself, if you had already
>> problems to begin with, and immediately, if you level teleport and
>> he was next to you.
>
> Right. So against Master Kaen, you zap teleport on yourself. That's
> 100% success.
>
> He will follow you swiftly, if you teleport inside the level,
>> so you will not save yourself, if you had already problems to begin
>> with,
>
> That is not true. It takes time for him to teleport to you. The
> teleports happen about once every 5 turns.

Really? I recall nemeses that came back immediately and needed a few
consecutive teleport zaps until my character got a single free turn.

"Movement
When a covetous monster wants to attack, they simply appear
adjacent to you, [...]" [ Wiki ]

I read that as if it's directly correlated with the monster's speed.

Janis

On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 10:15:04 PM UTC-5, Janis wrote:
> On 02.02.2022 02:09, Chris Bowers wrote:
> >
> >> On a no-teleport level it is 100% guaranteed to fail... (unless you
> >> are in wizard mode, of course). Well, on Kaen's level teleportation
> >> is allowed. But where do you teleport to, if you were already on
> >> the upstairs? He will follow you swiftly, if you teleport inside
> >> the level, so you will not save yourself, if you had already
> >> problems to begin with, and immediately, if you level teleport and
> >> he was next to you.
> >
> > Right. So against Master Kaen, you zap teleport on yourself. That's
> > 100% success.
> >
> > He will follow you swiftly, if you teleport inside the level,
> >> so you will not save yourself, if you had already problems to begin
> >> with,
> >
> > That is not true. It takes time for him to teleport to you. The
> > teleports happen about once every 5 turns.
> Really? I recall nemeses that came back immediately and needed a few
> consecutive teleport zaps until my character got a single free turn.
>
> "Movement
> When a covetous monster wants to attack, they simply appear
> adjacent to you, [...]" [ Wiki ]
>
> I read that as if it's directly correlated with the monster's speed.
>
> Janis
Wow. That's never happened to me.

Hey. Maybe You're unlucky or I'm lucky. But I use self-teleport to escape from demons and demogorgon and quest nemesis on the regular.

Am 02.02.2022 um 06:06 schrieb Chris Bowers:
> On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 10:15:04 PM UTC-5, Janis wrote:
>> On 02.02.2022 02:09, Chris Bowers wrote:
>>>
>>>> On a no-teleport level it is 100% guaranteed to fail... (unless you
>>>> are in wizard mode, of course). Well, on Kaen's level teleportation
>>>> is allowed. But where do you teleport to, if you were already on
>>>> the upstairs? He will follow you swiftly, if you teleport inside
>>>> the level, so you will not save yourself, if you had already
>>>> problems to begin with, and immediately, if you level teleport and
>>>> he was next to you.
>>>
>>> Right. So against Master Kaen, you zap teleport on yourself. That's
>>> 100% success.
>>>
>>> He will follow you swiftly, if you teleport inside the level,
>>>> so you will not save yourself, if you had already problems to begin
>>>> with,
>>>
>>> That is not true. It takes time for him to teleport to you. The
>>> teleports happen about once every 5 turns.
>> Really? I recall nemeses that came back immediately and needed a few
>> consecutive teleport zaps until my character got a single free turn.
>>
>> "Movement
>> When a covetous monster wants to attack, they simply appear
>> adjacent to you, [...]" [ Wiki ]
>>
>> I read that as if it's directly correlated with the monster's speed.
>>
>> Janis
> Wow. That's never happened to me.
>
> Hey. Maybe You're unlucky or I'm lucky. But I use self-teleport to escape from demons and demogorgon and quest nemesis on the regular.
>

I presume the immediate reappearance happens when you teleport *him*
away. When you teleport yourself away, you may have more time (the logic
behind this being that he has to find you again). But if the
approximately 5 turns means between 1 and 5 turns, then the method is
only probabilistically safe, because he can reappear after 1 turn or 2
already. (A code reader should be able to verify this.)

And yes, if he is next to you, he will levelport with you. (But only then.)

On 02.02.2022 10:46, Klaus Kassner wrote:
>
> I presume the immediate reappearance happens when you teleport *him*
> away. When you teleport yourself away, you may have more time (the logic
> behind this being that he has to find you again). But if the
> approximately 5 turns means between 1 and 5 turns, then the method is
> only probabilistically safe, because he can reappear after 1 turn or 2
> already. (A code reader should be able to verify this.)

In Slashem, on the guaranteed Demogorgon level, he comes adjacent soon;
typically in one or two turns, but I've had (very) few games where his
attention was a bit delayed, which could have been these mentioned 4-5
turns. It would be interesting what distribution the values have, since
it seems to me that maximum is close to around ~1.3 turns (in my games).
(I haven't inspected the code, though, that's just from experience.)

Janis

On 27.01.2022 08:21, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>
> But since altar camping at that stage isn't something to suggest
> unconditionally I abstain from suggesting it. Only my and others'
> experience that there's obviously too many lousy artifacts should
> be mentioned, so that (in an attempt to get a better artifact) a
> player is not too disappointed or brings himself in danger when
> trying to get a good artifact during altar campings while odds
> are bad.

I can add a report of my current [Slashem] game, playing a lawful
hobbit Monk. Until Sokoban the only (luckily coaligned) altar was
in mine town. Sacrifices didn't work well, it required quite some
time before I got even my first gift, which is (in Slashem, for
Monks) a pair of Gauntlets of Defense. So I have to continue with
sacrifices. The imminent food issue I could address by a jewelry
store at the Mall in the main branch; I've got five rings of 200$
and by observing the time/turn counter while going from hungry to
weak for each ring I finally found the last ring to be the desired
one. My plan was to dip for Excalibur once I've received a decent
artifact (to not make sacrificing effectively unusable before),
but remember that Monks are restricted in all good weapons. Anyway
I've entered the Rat level to get the Rat King's long sword. Then
back to the mine town altar. At a point I decided to start praying
until I get crowned, so that (with the longsword in my hand) this
weapon class gets unrestricted. The crowning happened quickly. At
some point I finally got my first gift; Ogresmasher - doh! Have to
continue. Long time nothing else had been gifted, instead hordes
of minions had been granted. A lot later, finally another artifact;
Dragonbane - doh! Well, I could at least resort to Excalibur that
I dipped for. Another problem with that monk was that he had no
bag of holding. All fountains [within the effective range] had
been used in hope for a wish and were drained. No smoky potions.
The throne at the Gnome King level provided nothing. Back to the
altar and continue sacrificing. Finally luck was with me and I
got the Wallet of Perseus, which is a high end version of a BoH.
Okay, I think I can live with Basic skilled Excalibur. I may come
back later (meanwhile it's about T:40000 already) to continue for
another sacrifice gift, but there are so many wimpy ones still
existing that I'd certainly regret that. And Grand Master skill
in martial arts is really great. (If only that would suffice for
Vecna - I consider it a mis-design in Slashem that Grand Master
isn't sufficient to place a hit on her.) I'm settled meanwhile,
let's see how it continues.

Janis

On 02.02.2022 17:41, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> [ playing a lawful hobbit Monk, lacking good artifact gift,
> unrestricted long sword by crowning, dipped for Excalibur,
> continued sacrificing, got the Wallet of Perseus ]
>
> I'm settled meanwhile, let's see how it continues.

A crazy game... - Me having an artifact problem? - Seems not.

Long ago I had an ascendable character buried in a bones file
on dlvl:17.

In Slashem there's four quest branches between dlvl:15 and 19,
so only in a game where dlvl:17 doesn't contain a quest branch
it is possible to load that bones file (IIUC).

My hobbit Monk got these bones. So he got GDSM (which are of
not much use for the AC - monks get just one more point from
these - but a source for MR), the Whisperfeed (speed boots),
Holy Spear of light (good for Monks, spears are unrestricted),
Disrupter (+30 damage to undead, +5 to hit), +5 Snickersnee,
then in the Lawful quest he found Stormbringer (10% chance)
but it gives a terrible deadly blast. Found also Deathsword,
and maybe more artifacts that I forgot. Obviously the time
for altar camping passed with that many existing artifacts
(including all those from the four quests). And, of course,
a lot other useful things he got from the bones; two magic
lamps, a magic candle, a magic whistle (so I can dispose my
blessed but fragile eucalyptus leafs), a spare bag of holding
(to ease robbery of Sam's Market), the usual heaps of scrolls,
potions, and wands, a healthstone, and whatnot else. Kaen is
dead; a boulder fort, +5 GoP, a small heap of (restricted)
+0 darts, each dart dealing 9-10 points of damage, and a few
zaps from a wand of sleep to make targeting easier.

Will this Monk become part of the next bones file deeper down?
Bets are open.

Next stages are the Wyrm Caves, Sam's Market, and the Tomb.
(And I hope the Adventurer's Guild will not be generated.)

Janis

Am 02.02.2022 um 15:11 schrieb Janis Papanagnou:
> On 02.02.2022 10:46, Klaus Kassner wrote:
>>
>> I presume the immediate reappearance happens when you teleport *him*
>> away. When you teleport yourself away, you may have more time (the logic
>> behind this being that he has to find you again). But if the
>> approximately 5 turns means between 1 and 5 turns, then the method is
>> only probabilistically safe, because he can reappear after 1 turn or 2
>> already. (A code reader should be able to verify this.)
>
> In Slashem, on the guaranteed Demogorgon level, he comes adjacent soon;
> typically in one or two turns, but I've had (very) few games where his
> attention was a bit delayed, which could have been these mentioned 4-5
> turns. It would be interesting what distribution the values have, since
> it seems to me that maximum is close to around ~1.3 turns (in my games).
> (I haven't inspected the code, though, that's just from experience.)
>

Well, on the Demogorgon level, all my teleports away from him are one
level up... So he does not follow, if he is not adjacent, which I have
made sure before.

Covetous Monsters do not reappear after one turn when you teleport yourself away with wand of teleport. I've never, never seen that. Slash 'em might be different.

My strategy works, and works well. You teleport yourself away, you confuse yourself (one turn of a forgotten spell) and read a scroll of teleport to get out of there. Even if you have to go into your bag of holding to get said scroll that's three. Once you (or they) teleport away, it's a minimum 5 turns. Not 1-5 turns.

It is not going to teleport back to you in 1 or 2 turns. This will work everytime.

-Chris

On 07.02.2022 05:52, Chris Bowers wrote:
> Covetous Monsters do not reappear after one turn when you teleport
> yourself away with wand of teleport. I've never, never seen that.

Any evidence for that?

> Slash 'em might be different.

I'd expect that Slashem behaves like NH-343. (Not sure about NH-36x;
while teleport tactics of monsters, as far as I've heard, changed
with respect to the choice of stairs, I haven't heard anything about
any change in covetous monsters following the character.)

In Slashem, as in Nethack, the demon lairs are non-teleport levels.
So there you cannot teleport yourself away. And you have to use a
different setup.

In my regular hobbit monk game that I currently play, and where I
had reached Demogorgon's lair yesterday, I could thus only try the
teleport-monster-away tactics. Demogorgon came instantly once he saw
me and he also quickly returnd.

Is there any founded reason why you think that it makes a difference
whether you teleport yourself away or teleport a covetous monster
away? (The monster certainly "knows" where you are, in both cases.)

In Nethack (NH-343) I've just tried in Explore mode, but that didn't
work well; wishing for a figurine wasn't possible, and wishing for a
statue and stone-to-fleshing that statue will create a "Demogorgon"
(that quickly follows you if you teleport away; in my test it was on
2nd turn), but that monster was just a shape-changer that quickly
turned to another beast, so I could only test/try the escape once.
(My assumption would be that properties of a shape-shifted creature
would match the new shaped species, but that may also be wrong.)

So tests (while imperfect), own experience, and wording of the Wiki
seem to all support our point.

What non-subjective evidence can you provide to support your opinion?

Janis

On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 1:38:07 PM UTC-5, Janis wrote:
> On 07.02.2022 05:52, Chris Bowers wrote:
> > Covetous Monsters do not reappear after one turn when you teleport
> > yourself away with wand of teleport. I've never, never seen that.
> Any evidence for that?
> > Slash 'em might be different.
> I'd expect that Slashem behaves like NH-343. (Not sure about NH-36x;
> while teleport tactics of monsters, as far as I've heard, changed
> with respect to the choice of stairs, I haven't heard anything about
> any change in covetous monsters following the character.)
>
> In Slashem, as in Nethack, the demon lairs are non-teleport levels.
> So there you cannot teleport yourself away. And you have to use a
> different setup.
>
> In my regular hobbit monk game that I currently play, and where I
> had reached Demogorgon's lair yesterday, I could thus only try the
> teleport-monster-away tactics. Demogorgon came instantly once he saw
> me and he also quickly returnd.
>
> Is there any founded reason why you think that it makes a difference
> whether you teleport yourself away or teleport a covetous monster
> away? (The monster certainly "knows" where you are, in both cases.)
>
> In Nethack (NH-343) I've just tried in Explore mode, but that didn't
> work well; wishing for a figurine wasn't possible, and wishing for a
> statue and stone-to-fleshing that statue will create a "Demogorgon"
> (that quickly follows you if you teleport away; in my test it was on
> 2nd turn), but that monster was just a shape-changer that quickly
> turned to another beast, so I could only test/try the escape once.
> (My assumption would be that properties of a shape-shifted creature
> would match the new shaped species, but that may also be wrong.)
>
> So tests (while imperfect), own experience, and wording of the Wiki
> seem to all support our point.
>
> What non-subjective evidence can you provide to support your opinion?
>
> Janis

I mean, it's not really SUBJECTIVE evidence. I mean, I've done it so, so many times. Unless you think I'm an unreliable witness or something. Teleport self away from quest nemesis or demon, confuse self with spell, read scroll of teleport. I've also used this to escape demogorgon too in 3.6.1.

Even if the demon were to reappear instantly the first turn, I assume you have more zaps from your teleportation wand, so you just do it again. I've never had the nemesis or demon follow me on the first turn, or 2nd turn either.

In 3.6.0 monsters can resist wand of teleport, so there it would be MORE effective to zap yourself, especially if the nemesis is behind other monsters.. Monster can resist=not guaranteed. Teleport wand on self always succeeds.

In addition, the nemesis can often summon monsters, so it often is effective to teleport yourself away instead, because by teleporting yourself away you're away from BOTH the quest nemesis and attendant monsters.

Teleporting yourself on a non teleport level works 100% of the time, so I would assume that you are talking about the number of turns it takes for the nemesis to follow you could be 1 turn? I've never seen that, but I GUESS it could happen.

When talking about a teleporting-to-the-upstairs monster, you are aware of course what happens. You hit it several times, and it teleports to the upstairs to heal up for 3-8 turns or so, and teleports back to you. When you teleport yourself away, I always assumed the same mechanic was in effect, the monster takes 3-8 turns to teleport to you, just as it does when it teleports to the upstairs.

I guess I could film it on my computer or something.

-Chris

On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 1:38:07 PM UTC-5, Janis wrote:
> On 07.02.2022 05:52, Chris Bowers wrote:
> > Covetous Monsters do not reappear after one turn when you teleport
> > yourself away with wand of teleport. I've never, never seen that.
> Any evidence for that?
> > Slash 'em might be different.
> I'd expect that Slashem behaves like NH-343. (Not sure about NH-36x;
> while teleport tactics of monsters, as far as I've heard, changed
> with respect to the choice of stairs, I haven't heard anything about
> any change in covetous monsters following the character.)
>
> In Slashem, as in Nethack, the demon lairs are non-teleport levels.
> So there you cannot teleport yourself away. And you have to use a
> different setup.
>
> In my regular hobbit monk game that I currently play, and where I
> had reached Demogorgon's lair yesterday, I could thus only try the
> teleport-monster-away tactics. Demogorgon came instantly once he saw
> me and he also quickly returnd.
>
> Is there any founded reason why you think that it makes a difference
> whether you teleport yourself away or teleport a covetous monster
> away? (The monster certainly "knows" where you are, in both cases.)
>
> In Nethack (NH-343) I've just tried in Explore mode, but that didn't
> work well; wishing for a figurine wasn't possible, and wishing for a
> statue and stone-to-fleshing that statue will create a "Demogorgon"
> (that quickly follows you if you teleport away; in my test it was on
> 2nd turn), but that monster was just a shape-changer that quickly
> turned to another beast, so I could only test/try the escape once.
> (My assumption would be that properties of a shape-shifted creature
> would match the new shaped species, but that may also be wrong.)
>
> So tests (while imperfect), own experience, and wording of the Wiki
> seem to all support our point.
>
> What non-subjective evidence can you provide to support your opinion?
>
> Janis

I mean, it's not really SUBJECTIVE evidence. I mean, I've done it so, so many times. Unless you think I'm an unreliable witness or something. Teleport self away from quest nemesis or demon, confuse self with spell, read scroll of teleport. I've also used this to escape demogorgon too in 3.6.1.

Even if the demon were to reappear instantly the first turn, I assume you have more zaps from your teleportation wand, so you just do it again. I've never had the nemesis or demon follow me on the first turn, or 2nd turn either.

In 3.6.0 monsters can resist wand of teleport, so there it would be MORE effective to zap yourself, especially if the nemesis is behind other monsters.. Monster can resist=not guaranteed. Teleport wand on self always succeeds (if you can teleport on the level).

In addition, the nemesis can often summon monsters, so it often is effective to teleport yourself away instead, because by teleporting yourself away you're away from BOTH the quest nemesis and attendant monsters.

Teleporting yourself on a teleport level works 100% of the time, so I would assume that you are talking about the number of turns it takes for the nemesis to follow you could be 1 turn? I've never seen that, but I GUESS it could happen.

When talking about a teleporting-to-the-upstairs monster, you are aware of course what happens. You hit it several times, and it teleports to the upstairs to heal up for 3-8 turns or so, and teleports back to you. When you teleport yourself away, I always assumed the same mechanic was in effect, the monster takes 3-8 turns to teleport to you, just as it does when it teleports to the upstairs from combat.

I guess I could film it on my computer or something.

-Chris

Am 05.03.2022 um 06:46 schrieb Chris Bowers:
> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 1:38:07 PM UTC-5, Janis wrote:
>> On 07.02.2022 05:52, Chris Bowers wrote:
>>> Covetous Monsters do not reappear after one turn when you teleport
>>> yourself away with wand of teleport. I've never, never seen that.
>> Any evidence for that?

>> Is there any founded reason why you think that it makes a difference
>> whether you teleport yourself away or teleport a covetous monster
>> away? (The monster certainly "knows" where you are, in both cases.)
>>
>> In Nethack (NH-343) I've just tried in Explore mode, but that didn't
>> work well; wishing for a figurine wasn't possible, and wishing for a
>> statue and stone-to-fleshing that statue will create a "Demogorgon"
>> (that quickly follows you if you teleport away; in my test it was on
>> 2nd turn), but that monster was just a shape-changer that quickly
>> turned to another beast, so I could only test/try the escape once.
>> (My assumption would be that properties of a shape-shifted creature
>> would match the new shaped species, but that may also be wrong.)
>>
>> So tests (while imperfect), own experience, and wording of the Wiki
>> seem to all support our point.
>>
>> What non-subjective evidence can you provide to support your opinion?
>>
>> Janis
>
> I mean, it's not really SUBJECTIVE evidence. I mean, I've done it so, so many times. Unless you think I'm an unreliable witness or something. Teleport self away from quest nemesis or demon, confuse self with spell, read scroll of teleport. I've also used this to escape demogorgon too in 3.6.1.
>
> Even if the demon were to reappear instantly the first turn, I assume you have more zaps from your teleportation wand, so you just do it again. I've never had the nemesis or demon follow me on the first turn, or 2nd turn either.
>
> In 3.6.0 monsters can resist wand of teleport, so there it would be MORE effective to zap yourself, especially if the nemesis is behind other monsters. Monster can resist=not guaranteed. Teleport wand on self always succeeds.
>
> In addition, the nemesis can often summon monsters, so it often is effective to teleport yourself away instead, because by teleporting yourself away you're away from BOTH the quest nemesis and attendant monsters.
>
> Teleporting yourself on a non teleport level works 100% of the time, so I would assume that you are talking about the number of turns it takes for the nemesis to follow you could be 1 turn? I've never seen that, but I GUESS it could happen.
>
> When talking about a teleporting-to-the-upstairs monster, you are aware of course what happens. You hit it several times, and it teleports to the upstairs to heal up for 3-8 turns or so, and teleports back to you. When you teleport yourself away, I always assumed the same mechanic was in effect, the monster takes 3-8 turns to teleport to you, just as it does when it teleports to the upstairs.
>
> I guess I could film it on my computer or something.
>
> -Chris
>
Would it be easy for a code-reader to find out by inspection of the sources?

Obviously, this tactics will not work on no-teleport levels, so it does
not normally help against Demogorgon in Slash'em. But that's a
no-brainer. If you meet Demogorgon on his own level, you are usually
well prepared. Meeting Demogorgon in NH is another issue and there
self-teleporting away may be a good approach.

The main question in this context is how likely it is that a covetous
monster really takes several turns to get back to you once you teleport
away. If you teleport *them* away, they seem to be back within one turn
(meaning you may have two moves, if the timing is right).

I personally think that an in-game rationale for them coming back to you
faster when *they* are teleported away than when you teleport *yourself*
might be that in the first case they definitely know your position
whereas in the second they "have to look for you". Never mind the
logical flaws inherent in the fact that if you level-teleport and they
are next to you, they can (and will) follow you immediately, while
losing you completely, if there is a space between them and yourself. On
the other hand, when you teleport on the level, they do not seem to be
able to follow you immediately (according to your observations), if next
to you, but it does not make any difference if they are a square away or
two, when you teleport away.

On 05.03.2022 06:46, Chris Bowers wrote:
>
> I mean, it's not really SUBJECTIVE evidence. I mean, I've done it so,
> so many times. Unless you think I'm an unreliable witness or
> something.

I had not the least made any personal assumption when I wrote that
post, and there was certainly no offense intended.

> Teleport self away from quest nemesis or demon, confuse
> self with spell, read scroll of teleport. I've also used this to
> escape demogorgon too in 3.6.1.

As far as I recall, in Nethack, there's no Demogorgon level, and
Demogorgon could only appear in case that two specific demons (was
it Orcus and Yeenoghu or Asmodeus?) would summon him. Encounters
are thus rare. In addition, since these levels are non-teleport
levels self-teleports are not possible, or only if you lure the
demon to another level. So chances to meet him in the first place
in places where we could test behavior are rare, even if (like both
of us) we have spent hundreds of games in Gehennom. (My Demogorgon
contacts in Nethack have certainly been less than five, from memory
I'd say maybe three encounters all in all... - quick search in my
NAO NH endgame logs shows exactly three encounters, so memory still
serves fine :-) In any case the sample size is certainly small.

Thinking about that fact - and assuming you don't liberally strive
towards meeting him - I have to correct my sentence above WRT your
question of being a reliable witness; I have my doubts here, since
I also know how human memory (generally) may fail.

>
> Even if the demon were to reappear instantly the first turn, I assume
> you have more zaps from your teleportation wand, so you just do it
> again. I've never had the nemesis or demon follow me on the first
> turn, or 2nd turn either.

Yes, you said that before.

Indeed you usually have more charges in your wand, and the reason
why I warned about the monster's return is exactly because covetous
monsters happened to return in my games typically immediately (not
Juiblex, who is slow but other more dangerous demons and quest
nemeses) after having zapped them more than once or twice so that I
feared I wouldn't get a free turn until the wand is empty.

>
> In 3.6.0 monsters can resist wand of teleport, so there it would be
> MORE effective to zap yourself, especially if the nemesis is behind
> other monsters. Monster can resist=not guaranteed. Teleport wand on
> self always succeeds.

As said, I cannot speak for NH-36x.

As explained above self-teleport may be no alternative if we are
speaking about the demon lairs that are non-teleport levels.

>
> In addition, the nemesis can often summon monsters,

Yes, the spell-casters (about half of the quest nemeses) can do that.

> so it often is
> effective to teleport yourself away instead, because by teleporting
> yourself away you're away from BOTH the quest nemesis and attendant
> monsters.

You have to consider that if you succeed to teleport the nemesis away
you can instantly leave the level using the stairs. If you teleport
yourself away you typically need additional turns to escape, or need
teleport control to return to the stairs (which, if you think about
it, is typically impossible in the case of summoned monsters, that you
describe as additional factor to consider).

>
> Teleporting yourself on a non teleport level works 100% of the time,

That was certainly not true for NH-343, where the success rate was 0%
exactly.

In case that this changed in NH-36x (that I doubt) the term no-teleport
level would certainly make no sense any more.

> so I would assume that you are talking about the number of turns it
> takes for the nemesis to follow you could be 1 turn? I've never seen
> that, but I GUESS it could happen.

Yes, that's what I was reporting. I remember to have needed more than
one zap in several cases before he stayed away so that I could escape.

>
> When talking about a teleporting-to-the-upstairs monster, you are
> aware of course what happens. You hit it several times, and it
> teleports to the upstairs to heal up for 3-8 turns or so, and
> teleports back to you. When you teleport yourself away, I always
> assumed the same mechanic was in effect, the monster takes 3-8 turns
> to teleport to you, just as it does when it teleports to the
> upstairs.

I would assume that this happens exactly in the case where you managed
to _severely_ wound him - in both teleport-scenarios. But that means
you did so, and then aborted the attack? If I am equipped and buff
enough to fight the nemesis so far then I usually have no reason to
flee. I usually have problems with the nemesis if I get to his level
unintended or if he wakes up too soon and he surprises me.

> I guess I could film it on my computer or something.

Attentive observations would probably suffice, if backed up by more
than one other player. Yet better, of course, a source code reference.
Since observations from players represent too small sample sets here,
but also depending on the speed of the actual monster to be considered.

Janis

On 05.03.2022 14:28, Klaus Kassner wrote:
>>
> Would it be easy for a code-reader to find out by inspection of the
> sources?

That would also be my preference.

>
> Obviously, this tactics will not work on no-teleport levels, so it does
> not normally help against Demogorgon in Slash'em. But that's a
> no-brainer. If you meet Demogorgon on his own level, you are usually
> well prepared. Meeting Demogorgon in NH is another issue and there
> self-teleporting away may be a good approach.

But mind how Demogorgon appears; by being summoned by only a few major
demons. That happens in my experience either on the also non-teleport
levels of these demons, or in a two-step indirect way by lesser demons'
summoning major demons, who then summon them. That can happen on levels
with fountain, for example, as I seem to recall from own experience.
(But if you summoned Yeenoghu, there's no need to wait for Demogorgon,
since you can test it also with Yeenoghu then - that is, if you survive
long enough that early to complete the test. :-)

>
> The main question in this context is how likely it is that a covetous
> monster really takes several turns to get back to you once you teleport
> away. If you teleport *them* away, they seem to be back within one turn
> (meaning you may have two moves, if the timing is right).
>
> I personally think that an in-game rationale for them coming back to you
> faster when *they* are teleported away than when you teleport *yourself*
> might be that in the first case they definitely know your position
> whereas in the second they "have to look for you".

The test that I made does not seem to support that assumed behavior.
Or can you confirm that from own observation?

> [...]

Janis

Am 06.03.2022 um 02:30 schrieb Janis Papanagnou:
> On 05.03.2022 14:28, Klaus Kassner wrote:
>>>
aning you may have two moves, if the timing is right).
>>
>> I personally think that an in-game rationale for them coming back to you
>> faster when *they* are teleported away than when you teleport *yourself*
>> might be that in the first case they definitely know your position
>> whereas in the second they "have to look for you".
>
> The test that I made does not seem to support that assumed behavior.
> Or can you confirm that from own observation?

No, because I rarely use either strategy on covetous monsters. Teleport
away does not give you much breathing time and it never occured to me
that this might be different for self-teleportation.

With teleport control, self-teleportation is preferable to escape melee
situations with many foes -- but it does not work on non-teleport
levels. Teleport away seemed to work always in pre-3.6.x versions, so it
is good to get rid of the occasional disenchanter or mind flayer (if you
have not genocided them) while in a melee with many monsters. You do not
want to switch to an inferior weapon where you don't care about
enchantment while surrounded by sevefral monsters. And of course, you
want to be able to give a mind flayer your full attention, retreating to
keep at least a square between you while blasting him with your wand of
death or lightning or spell of magic missile (or throwing Mjollnir at
him in a particular case).

Am 06.03.2022 um 02:18 schrieb Janis Papanagnou:
> On 05.03.2022 06:46, Chris Bowers wrote:
>>
>> I mean, it's not really SUBJECTIVE evidence. I mean, I've done it so,
>> so many times. Unless you think I'm an unreliable witness or
>> something.
>
> I had not the least made any personal assumption when I wrote that
> post, and there was certainly no offense intended.
>
>> Teleport self away from quest nemesis or demon, confuse
>> self with spell, read scroll of teleport. I've also used this to
>> escape demogorgon too in 3.6.1.
>
> As far as I recall, in Nethack, there's no Demogorgon level, and
> Demogorgon could only appear in case that two specific demons (was
> it Orcus and Yeenoghu or Asmodeus?) would summon him.

I seem to remember that I once encountered Demogorgon while fighting the
Wizard of Yendor and I assumed that he had summoned him (Demo was
peaceful, but not for long). Is that also possible or must the wizard
have summoned, say, Orcus, and Orcus then Demogorgon? (In any case, I
had to fight the wizard and two major demons, including Demogorgon,
then, but I survived.)

On 06.03.2022 18:30, Klaus Kassner wrote:
>
> With teleport control, self-teleportation is preferable to escape melee
> situations with many foes -- but it does not work on non-teleport
> levels.

Thanks for the [NH-36x] confirmation. For NH-343 I knew it already.
So we can now ignore the recently fostered myth, I suppose.

> Teleport away seemed to work always in pre-3.6.x versions, [...]

What?! - For NH-343, the decades long running version before NH-36x,
that had never worked using scrolls or wands at self.

To what level do you want to teleport? 24 # Medusa non-teleport
What do you want to read? [ijklm or ?*]
As you read the scroll, it disappears. # scroll of teleport
A mysterious force prevents you from teleporting! # <<<<< ineffective
The Woodland-elf throws a runed dagger!
You are almost hit by a runed dagger.
What do you want to zap? [cn or ?*]
You may wish for an object.
For what do you wish? blessed wand of teleportation
q - a zinc wand.
What do you want to zap? [cnq or ?*] # wand of teleportation
In what direction? # at elf - got teleported away
What do you want to zap? [cnq or ?*] # wand of teleportation
In what direction? # at self - no effect, but...
A mysterious force prevents you from teleporting! # <<<<< ineffective
You hear a distant squeak.

....and a scream of mine.

Can we now, please, stop spreading that misinformation.

Janis

On 06.03.2022 18:34, Klaus Kassner wrote:
>
> I seem to remember that I once encountered Demogorgon while fighting the
> Wizard of Yendor and I assumed that he had summoned him (Demo was
> peaceful, but not for long). Is that also possible or must the wizard
> have summoned, say, Orcus, and Orcus then Demogorgon?

I don't know. (But also wouldn't be too surprised.) Was that in NH-36x ?

> (In any case, I
> had to fight the wizard and two major demons, including Demogorgon,
> then, but I survived.)

Congrats! :-)

In NH-343 at least one could keep the demons away with Elbereth until
the Wizard gets its wand of death zap. But I suppose NH-36x is harder
concerning Elbereth?

Janis

Am 06.03.2022 um 19:22 schrieb Janis Papanagnou:
> On 06.03.2022 18:30, Klaus Kassner wrote:
>>
>> With teleport control, self-teleportation is preferable to escape melee
>> situations with many foes -- but it does not work on non-teleport
>> levels.
>
> Thanks for the [NH-36x] confirmation. For NH-343 I knew it already.
> So we can now ignore the recently fostered myth, I suppose.
>
>> Teleport away seemed to work always in pre-3.6.x versions, [...]
>
> What?! - For NH-343, the decades long running version before NH-36x,
> that had never worked using scrolls or wands at self.
>
> To what level do you want to teleport? 24 # Medusa non-teleport
> What do you want to read? [ijklm or ?*]
> As you read the scroll, it disappears. # scroll of teleport
> A mysterious force prevents you from teleporting! # <<<<< ineffective
> The Woodland-elf throws a runed dagger!
> You are almost hit by a runed dagger.
> What do you want to zap? [cn or ?*]
> You may wish for an object.
> For what do you wish? blessed wand of teleportation
> q - a zinc wand.
> What do you want to zap? [cnq or ?*] # wand of teleportation
> In what direction? # at elf - got teleported away
> What do you want to zap? [cnq or ?*] # wand of teleportation
> In what direction? # at self - no effect, but...
> A mysterious force prevents you from teleporting! # <<<<< ineffective
> You hear a distant squeak.
>
> ...and a scream of mine.
>
> Can we now, please, stop spreading that misinformation.
>
> Janis
>

Where is the misinformation? What I was saying is that "teleport away"
always worked, not "self-teleport". "Teleport away" always refers to
"not self"... (the "away" is "away from the person causing the teleport").

You are not saying anything different, but why then am I spreading
misinformation?

Am 06.03.2022 um 19:27 schrieb Janis Papanagnou:
> On 06.03.2022 18:34, Klaus Kassner wrote:
>>
>> I seem to remember that I once encountered Demogorgon while fighting the
>> Wizard of Yendor and I assumed that he had summoned him (Demo was
>> peaceful, but not for long). Is that also possible or must the wizard
>> have summoned, say, Orcus, and Orcus then Demogorgon?
>
> I don't know. (But also wouldn't be too surprised.) Was that in NH-36x ?

No. 3.4.x

On 07.03.2022 11:33, Klaus Kassner wrote:
>
> Where is the misinformation? What I was saying is that "teleport away"
> always worked, not "self-teleport". "Teleport away" always refers to
> "not self"... (the "away" is "away from the person causing the teleport").
>
> You are not saying anything different, but why then am I spreading
> misinformation?

Given that "teleport away" doesn't seem to say anything about what is
teleported away, and given that the existing spell called "teleport
away" is refering to self-teleports I misunderstood your intention.

After the many repetitions of the other poster's misinformation saying:
"Teleporting yourself on a non teleport level works 100% of the time,"
I assumed you joined that "alternative facts".

Thanks for clarifying and sorry that my post sounded harsh!

Janis

Am 07.03.2022 um 17:14 schrieb Janis Papanagnou:
> On 07.03.2022 11:33, Klaus Kassner wrote:
>>
>> Where is the misinformation? What I was saying is that "teleport away"
>> always worked, not "self-teleport". "Teleport away" always refers to
>> "not self"... (the "away" is "away from the person causing the teleport").
>>
>> You are not saying anything different, but why then am I spreading
>> misinformation?
>
> Given that "teleport away" doesn't seem to say anything about what is
> teleported away, and given that the existing spell called "teleport
> away" is refering to self-teleports I misunderstood your intention.

No. The spell is a beam-type spell. So it works similar to a wand of
teleportation, i.e., it teleports objects/monsters away at which it is
pointed, and it can be used for self-teleportation when pointed at oneself.

One could of course argue that the "away" refers to the point from which
the spell or wand was activated (but the term is not used for invoking a
scroll of teleportation). Then *any* teleportation that works is a
teleportation "away". In my personal language book, however, the "away"
refers to the location of the spell caster, so if you cast it at
yourself or zap a wand of teleportation at yourself, then it is not a
teleport "away", because what is teleported (you and all your inventory)
is still at your own position. In the sense of physical relativity, it
then is the environment that is teleported away...

So obviously I made the mistake of assuming that my meaning was clear
from the context in which I used the notions of "teleport away" and of
"self-teleport". (Or in assuming that everyone uses these notions the
same way as myself.)