On Wed, 11 May 2022 14:40:29 +0100, snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) wrote:

> If Alice Bob-Carol married David Erica-Frank, what would
> be the hyphenated surname of their daughter Greta?

Greta Bob-Frank.

--
Joy Beeson, U.S.A., mostly central Hoosier,
some Northern Indiana, Upstate New York, Florida, and Hawaii
joy beeson at centurylink dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
The above message is a Usenet post.

On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 5:08:12 AM UTC-6, CDB wrote:
> On 5/11/2022 3:47 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
> > CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Sn!pe wrote:
> >>> Silvano <Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
> >>>> Sn!pe hat geschrieben:
>
> >>>>> If Alice Bob-Carol married David Erica-Frank, what would be
> >>>>> the hyphenated surname of their daughter Greta?
>
> >>>> This question has nothing to do with AUE and I've not yet seen
> >>>> Sn!pe here, therefore my question: am I answering a troll?
>
> >>> I'm a lurker, not a troll; this is a genuine question.
>
> >>>> Anyway, it depends on the laws of the country or countries
> >>>> Greta is a citizen of. It is also quite possible that Greta has
> >>>> a surname according to the laws of the country X and a
> >>>> different surname according to the laws of the country Y.
>
> >>> It isn't a matter of law but customary usage and so is relevant
> >>> to aue.
>
> >>> There is a modern fad among some people here in the UK to use
> >>> both their parents' surnames joined with a hyphen, hence my
> >>> question.
>
> >> It is also a newish custom in Quebec. IME the grandchildren
> >> usually get the first element of each parent's name, duly
> >> hyphenated. Greta Bob-Erica, maybe.
>
> > Thank you, CDB.
>
> > This answer has just brought another question to mind: is there any
> > convention as to whether the husband's name goes first or the
> > wife's?

> Don't know, but I suspect father's-first, since the old custom was
> father's-only. If I were doing it I think I would try for euphony.

Why not father's-last, since the old custom was father's-only? That
would leave the father's name as the last name.

When my friends John Kowalski and Maria Herrera (using Silvano's
method of keeping the ethnicities) got married, they both took the
surname Herrera-Kowalski. They have one child, Joseph Kowalski.
So if anybody can't deal with the hyphenated surname, they treat
Herrera as the father's middle name and Kowalski as his surname,
which matches his son's.

--
Jerry Friedman

Jerry Friedman hat am 09.06.2022 um 06:09 geschrieben:

> When my friends John Kowalski and Maria Herrera (using Silvano's
> method of keeping the ethnicities) got married, they both took the
> surname Herrera-Kowalski. They have one child, Joseph Kowalski.
> So if anybody can't deal with the hyphenated surname, they treat
> Herrera as the father's middle name and Kowalski as his surname,
> which matches his son's.

Actually, what you describe is not MY method, but it could be possible
in certain jurisdictions. Just asking: are you talking of a case you
know personally or have you tried to follow what you wrongly call my
method? In the latter case, I have to tell you that you totally
misunderstood what I wrote. I hope it's just a misunderstanding and not
ill will on your side.

Also, surnames have absolutely nothing to do with ethnicities, but with
laws and - in some countries - linguistic or social customs.

If anyone is really interested in the complicated field of possible
surname changes after marriage and children's surnames under different
laws, I can tell them something about the evolution of Italian and
German laws in the last decades and they can tell me something about the
surname laws in their English-speaking country.

On 6/9/2022 12:09 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> CDB wrote:
>> Sn!pe wrote:
>>> CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Sn!pe wrote:
>>>>> Silvano <Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
>>>>>> Sn!pe hat geschrieben:

>>>>>>> If Alice Bob-Carol married David Erica-Frank, what would
>>>>>>> be the hyphenated surname of their daughter Greta?

>>>>>> This question has nothing to do with AUE and I've not yet
>>>>>> seen Sn!pe here, therefore my question: am I answering a
>>>>>> troll?

>>>>> I'm a lurker, not a troll; this is a genuine question.

>>>>>> Anyway, it depends on the laws of the country or countries
>>>>>> Greta is a citizen of. It is also quite possible that Greta
>>>>>> has a surname according to the laws of the country X and a
>>>>>> different surname according to the laws of the country Y.

>>>>> It isn't a matter of law but customary usage and so is
>>>>> relevant to aue.

>>>>> There is a modern fad among some people here in the UK to
>>>>> use both their parents' surnames joined with a hyphen, hence
>>>>> my question.

>>>> It is also a newish custom in Quebec. IME the grandchildren
>>>> usually get the first element of each parent's name, duly
>>>> hyphenated. Greta Bob-Erica, maybe.

>>> Thank you, CDB.

>>> This answer has just brought another question to mind: is there
>>> any convention as to whether the husband's name goes first or
>>> the wife's?

>> Don't know, but I suspect father's-first, since the old custom was
>> father's-only. If I were doing it I think I would try for euphony.

> Why not father's-last, since the old custom was father's-only? That
> would leave the father's name as the last name.

A good point. If my impression of Quebec practice is right, that might
leave the next generation carrying the names of their mothers instead of
their fathers, but I suppose that that is not as important as it used to be.

> When my friends John Kowalski and Maria Herrera (using Silvano's
> method of keeping the ethnicities) got married, they both took the
> surname Herrera-Kowalski. They have one child, Joseph Kowalski. So
> if anybody can't deal with the hyphenated surname, they treat Herrera
> as the father's middle name and Kowalski as his surname, which
> matches his son's.

I would choose that order too, on grounds of euphony.

On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 1:17:35 AM UTC-6, Silvano wrote:
> Jerry Friedman hat am 09.06.2022 um 06:09 geschrieben:
> > When my friends John Kowalski and Maria Herrera (using Silvano's
> > method of keeping the ethnicities) got married, they both took the
> > surname Herrera-Kowalski. They have one child, Joseph Kowalski.
> > So if anybody can't deal with the hyphenated surname, they treat
> > Herrera as the father's middle name and Kowalski as his surname,
> > which matches his son's.

> Actually, what you describe is not MY method,

I meant your method of choosing pseudonyms that match the
people's ethnicities (though I guess you were matching citizenship
at birth, not ethnicity). These are real people. John is a native-
born American of Polish ancestry on his father's side, and Maria
is an immigrant from a Spanish-speaking country.

> but it could be possible
> in certain jurisdictions. Just asking: are you talking of a case you
> know personally or have you tried to follow what you wrongly call my
> method? In the latter case, I have to tell you that you totally
> misunderstood what I wrote. I hope it's just a misunderstanding and not
> ill will on your side.
>
> Also, surnames have absolutely nothing to do with ethnicities, but with
> laws and - in some countries - linguistic or social customs.

More than "absolutely nothing".

> If anyone is really interested in the complicated field of possible
> surname changes after marriage and children's surnames under different
> laws, I can tell them something about the evolution of Italian and
> German laws in the last decades and they can tell me something about the
> surname laws in their English-speaking country.

There seems to be a lot less law here in the U.S. My impression is that the
difficulties are with custom.

Anyone here can change their name to anything they want, though there
will be problems if it's only one name, or if it's really long, or if it uses
characters beyond the 26 from A to Z, possibly with a common accent mark.
I don't believe the legal process is very difficult or expensive.

I think my friends got their names legally changed when they got married.
As I recall, they had some difficulty convincing everybody that those were
their new names, where "everybody" includes the tax people, the driver's
license people, their bank(s), etc. As I further recall, they decided not to
struggle when their son was born and just gave him the surname Kowalski,
maybe by simply having that written on his birth certificate.

I might add that Maria's original name was probably María Herrera García,
and her mother probably dropped the maternal surname when she brought
Maria here by the simple method of not telling anyone to use it, just as she
dropped the acute accents. (María's real name would have had one.) That
used to be the normal method. However, here in New Mexico, there are a
lot of immigrants from Mexico and Central America, and some of them do
use both surnames, at least when they take classes at the community
college where I teach. I suspect their children born here won't.

I've gone through all that to show that laws are very different here from
what you and people you know have dealt with. But I don't need more
information about Italian and German laws than what you've provided.

--
Jerry Friedman

Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> writes:
>As I further recall, they decided not to struggle when their
>son was born and just gave him the surname Kowalski, maybe by
>simply having that written on his birth certificate.

When someone has written "Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer" onto
a Web page, I will see "Anne Kramp", because I have asked my
Web browser to rewrite such names:

s/\bAnnegret Kramp-Karrenbauer\b/Anne Kramp/g
s/\bStark-Watzinger\b/Stark/g
s/\bAstrid-Sabine\b/Sabine/g
s/\bAlabali-Radovan\b/Radovan/g

.

Supersedes: <names-20220609142727@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
[", because"->" because"]

Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> writes:
>As I further recall, they decided not to struggle when their
>son was born and just gave him the surname Kowalski, maybe by
>simply having that written on his birth certificate.

When someone has written "Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer" onto
a Web page, I will see "Anne Kramp" because I have asked my
Web browser to rewrite such names:

s/\bAnnegret Kramp-Karrenbauer\b/Anne Kramp/g
s/\bStark-Watzinger\b/Stark/g
s/\bAstrid-Sabine\b/Sabine/g
s/\bAlabali-Radovan\b/Radovan/g

.

Jerry Friedman hat am 09.06.2022 um 15:09 geschrieben:
> On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 1:17:35 AM UTC-6, Silvano wrote:
>> Jerry Friedman hat am 09.06.2022 um 06:09 geschrieben:
>>> When my friends John Kowalski and Maria Herrera (using Silvano's
>>> method of keeping the ethnicities) got married, they both took the
>>> surname Herrera-Kowalski. They have one child, Joseph Kowalski.
>>> So if anybody can't deal with the hyphenated surname, they treat
>>> Herrera as the father's middle name and Kowalski as his surname,
>>> which matches his son's.
>
>> Actually, what you describe is not MY method,
>
> I meant your method of choosing pseudonyms that match the
> people's ethnicities (though I guess you were matching citizenship
> at birth, not ethnicity).

You guessed correctly. Would you have preferred an Italian Hashimoto and
a Bolivian Ndayishimiye?

> These are real people. John is a native-
> born American of Polish ancestry on his father's side, and Maria
> is an immigrant from a Spanish-speaking country.

Thanks for the explanations, even if I snipped most of them.

> I might add that Maria's original name was probably María Herrera García,

As she was an immigrant form a Spanish-speaking country, her original
name almost certainly had two surnames. If it is so and she is still
entitled to the citizenship of that country, she still has both surnames
in that country.

> I've gone through all that to show that laws are very different here from
> what you and people you know have dealt with.

Thanks for confirming that different countries have different laws. At
the beginning, 4 weeks ago, Sn!pe had stated: "There is a modern fad
among some people here in the UK to use both their parents' surnames
joined with a hyphen, hence my question."
I answered: "Fads are not the same as legal requirements. As you may or
may not know, most countries have more stringent regulations on surnames
than the UK."

And after looking at the UK and US laws about surnames, the correct
answer to Sn!pe's original question: "If Alice Bob-Carol married David
Erica-Frank, what would be the hyphenated surname of their daughter
Greta?" is "Whatever their parents choose", if both parents are only UK
citizens. If at least one of them is (also) a citizen of another
country, let's say of Ruritania, the correct answer is "It depends on
the law of Ruritania", as far as that country is concerned, e.g. for
issuing a Ruritanian passport.

On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 09:47:44 +0200
Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:

[]
> And after looking at the UK and US laws about surnames, the correct
> answer to Sn!pe's original question: "If Alice Bob-Carol married David
[]

Long time no posts? I presume he's gorn off wading.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:

> On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 09:47:44 +0200
> Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
>
> []
> > And after looking at the UK and US laws about surnames, the correct
> > answer to Sn!pe's original question: "If Alice Bob-Carol married David
> []
>
> Long time no posts? I presume he's gorn off wading.
>

I lurk here and have done for quite a while, although I don't
read all threads nor all posters. My other groups are dead
or dying so I delurked to feed my Usenet addiction.

--
^Ï^ Slava Ukraini

My pet rock Gordon just is.

Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:

> Jerry Friedman hat am 09.06.2022 um 15:09 geschrieben:
> > On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 1:17:35 AM UTC-6, Silvano wrote:
> >> Jerry Friedman hat am 09.06.2022 um 06:09 geschrieben:
> >>> When my friends John Kowalski and Maria Herrera (using Silvano's
> >>> method of keeping the ethnicities) got married, they both took the
> >>> surname Herrera-Kowalski. They have one child, Joseph Kowalski.
> >>> So if anybody can't deal with the hyphenated surname, they treat
> >>> Herrera as the father's middle name and Kowalski as his surname,
> >>> which matches his son's.
> >
> >> Actually, what you describe is not MY method,
> >
> > I meant your method of choosing pseudonyms that match the
> > people's ethnicities (though I guess you were matching citizenship
> > at birth, not ethnicity).
>
> You guessed correctly. Would you have preferred an Italian Hashimoto and
> a Bolivian Ndayishimiye?
>
>
> > These are real people. John is a native-
> > born American of Polish ancestry on his father's side, and Maria
> > is an immigrant from a Spanish-speaking country.
>
> Thanks for the explanations, even if I snipped most of them.
>
>
>
> > I might add that Maria's original name was probably María Herrera García,
>
> As she was an immigrant form a Spanish-speaking country, her original
> name almost certainly had two surnames. If it is so and she is still
> entitled to the citizenship of that country, she still has both surnames
> in that country.
>
>
>
> > I've gone through all that to show that laws are very different here from
> > what you and people you know have dealt with.
> >
>
> Thanks for confirming that different countries have different laws. At
> the beginning, 4 weeks ago, Sn!pe had stated: "There is a modern fad
> among some people here in the UK to use both their parents' surnames
> joined with a hyphen, hence my question."
> I answered: "Fads are not the same as legal requirements. As you may or
> may not know, most countries have more stringent regulations on surnames
> than the UK."
>
> And after looking at the UK and US laws about surnames, the correct
> answer to Sn!pe's original question: "If Alice Bob-Carol married David
> Erica-Frank, what would be the hyphenated surname of their daughter
> Greta?" is "Whatever their parents choose", if both parents are only UK
> citizens. If at least one of them is (also) a citizen of another
> country, let's say of Ruritania, the correct answer is "It depends on
> the law of Ruritania", as far as that country is concerned, e.g. for
> issuing a Ruritanian passport.

A concise and sensible answer, thank you.

--
^Ï^ Slava Ukraini

My pet rock Gordon just is.

On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 09:47:44 +0200, Silvano
<Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:

>And after looking at the UK and US laws about surnames, the correct
>answer to Sn!pe's original question: "If Alice Bob-Carol married David
>Erica-Frank....

If Wanda Landowska married Howard Hughes, then divorced him and
married Henry Kissinger, she'd be Wanda Hughes Kissinger now.

On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 1:47:48 AM UTC-6, Silvano wrote:
> Jerry Friedman hat am 09.06.2022 um 15:09 geschrieben:
> > On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 1:17:35 AM UTC-6, Silvano wrote:
> >> Jerry Friedman hat am 09.06.2022 um 06:09 geschrieben:
> >>> When my friends John Kowalski and Maria Herrera (using Silvano's
> >>> method of keeping the ethnicities) got married, they both took the
> >>> surname Herrera-Kowalski. They have one child, Joseph Kowalski.
> >>> So if anybody can't deal with the hyphenated surname, they treat
> >>> Herrera as the father's middle name and Kowalski as his surname,
> >>> which matches his son's.
> >
> >> Actually, what you describe is not MY method,
> >
> > I meant your method of choosing pseudonyms that match the
> > people's ethnicities (though I guess you were matching citizenship
> > at birth, not ethnicity).

> You guessed correctly. Would you have preferred an Italian Hashimoto and
> a Bolivian Ndayishimiye?

It's interesting that the Italian wouldn't be "Hascimoto", or is that also a
possibility?

> > These are real people. John is a native-
> > born American of Polish ancestry on his father's side, and Maria
> > is an immigrant from a Spanish-speaking country.

> Thanks for the explanations, even if I snipped most of them.

A pleasure.

> > I might add that Maria's original name was probably María Herrera García,

> As she was an immigrant form a Spanish-speaking country, her original
> name almost certainly had two surnames.

The only important exception being Argentina, apparently.

> If it is so and she is still
> entitled to the citizenship of that country, she still has both surnames
> in that country.

I confess I have no idea about that country's citizenship laws or its laws
on the name of someone who was born there but is visiting temporarily
on a passport from their adopted country with the legal name in that country.

> > I've gone through all that to show that laws are very different here from
> > what you and people you know have dealt with.

> Thanks for confirming that different countries have different laws. At
> the beginning, 4 weeks ago, Sn!pe had stated: "There is a modern fad
> among some people here in the UK to use both their parents' surnames
> joined with a hyphen, hence my question."
> I answered: "Fads are not the same as legal requirements. As you may or
> may not know, most countries have more stringent regulations on surnames
> than the UK."

> And after looking at the UK and US laws about surnames, the correct
> answer to Sn!pe's original question: "If Alice Bob-Carol married David
> Erica-Frank, what would be the hyphenated surname of their daughter
> Greta?" is "Whatever their parents choose", if both parents are only UK
> citizens. If at least one of them is (also) a citizen of another
> country, let's say of Ruritania, the correct answer is "It depends on
> the law of Ruritania", as far as that country is concerned, e.g. for
> issuing a Ruritanian passport.

Are other English-speaking countries flexible about names like the U.S.
and UK? (Not necessarily a question for you.)

--
Jerry Friedman

Jerry Friedman hat am 10.06.2022 um 18:17 geschrieben:
> On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 1:47:48 AM UTC-6, Silvano wrote:

>> You guessed correctly. Would you have preferred an Italian Hashimoto and
>> a Bolivian Ndayishimiye?
>
> It's interesting that the Italian wouldn't be "Hascimoto", or is that also a
> possibility?

Not really, Centuries ago that name would have become Ascimoto, if a
Japanese Hashimoto had moved to Italy, but now we don't mangle with
surnames any more.

Does anybody here know Giovanni Acuto? I learned his name at school. If
you wish, you can read more about him here
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hawkwood>

On 11/06/22 02:17, Jerry Friedman wrote:

> Are other English-speaking countries flexible about names like the
> U.S. and UK? (Not necessarily a question for you.)

As I understand the Australian laws, any name change is acceptable
provided that it's not obscene and not for fraudulent purposes. The
change can be informal (i.e. not registered anywhere), but making it
formal can avoid some complications down the line.

My wife got partway through a name change and didn't finish it. That
means that she votes under one name, but has a different name for all
other purposes.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

In article <t80p8r$bhu$1@dont-email.me>,
Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>My wife got partway through a name change and didn't finish it. That
>means that she votes under one name, but has a different name for all
>other purposes.

It's pretty common for women academics to publish under one name, but
have identity documents under another, depending on when they married
(or divorced) relative to when they published their first papers.
That's becoming less of an issue now with non-name-based identifiers
for authors[1] and the overall reduction in the popularity of married
names[2].

-GAWollman

[1] Because an opaque identifier allows the various citation tracking
databases to correctly identify an author regardless of what name they
published under.

[2] Of course opaque identifiers are still necessary because there are
other reasons that people publish under different names.
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)