Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>> The people should not have a say
>>> in their government because the easily
>>> bribed state reps know what is REALLY
>>> best for them?
>> They have a say.
>
> That is what ballot referendums are for.
>
>
>> That's what elections are for. Don't like your rep,
>> elect a new one. Else, why even bother having a house/sen/gov?
>
> Who do you think better prepresents
> the public on an issue - the state reps
> or the people themselves?

Not all states have these progressive reforms, but when they do
legislatures that ignore the election are violating the
Constitution's guarantee of a republican form of government.

--
Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. @
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\
The Church of the Holey Apple .signature 3.1 / \
of Discordian Mysteries. This post insults Islam. Mohamed

Josh Rosenbluth wrote:
> On 11/15/2023 10:35 AM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>> Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote in news:uj2kpr$1p2l8$2@dont-email.me:
>>
>>>   That's what elections are for. Don't like your rep,
>>> elect a new one. Else, why even bother having a house/sen/gov?
>>
>>        Who do you think better prepresents
>> the public on an issue - the state reps
>> or the people themselves?
>
> I lived in California for 7 years and the issues presented to the
> voters were confusing, complicated and sometimes ridiculous. Even
> though I agree with the outcome of the Ohio vote, I'm with Yak on
> this one.
>

Voters are stupid but in those states that have initiatives (not
all do), it's a war on democracy when when the state legislature
ignores the decisions of the people when the decisions are made
according to the state Constitution.

(And courts that deny an initiative are denying democracy, but
courts have a function to deny overreach of laws.)

--
Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. @
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\
The Church of the Holey Apple .signature 3.1 / \
of Discordian Mysteries. This post insults Islam. Mohamed

Yak wrote:
> On 11/15/2023 12:33 PM, Siri Cruise wrote:
>> Yak wrote:
>>> On 11/15/2023 11:35 AM, Siri Cruise wrote:
>>>> Yak wrote:
>>>>> On 11/15/2023 3:30 AM, Siri Cruise wrote:
>>>>>> Jay Santos wrote:
>>>>>>> Santorum is an illiterate cunt. The "country" is not being
>>>>>>> run by "pure" democracy — something Santorum (illiterate
>>>>>>> cunt) can't even define — and *states* having some elements
>>>>>>> of direct
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Initiatives like Ohio Issue 1 are pure democracy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Initiatives like Issue 1 should not be part of a
>>>>> constitutional amendment.
>>>>
>>>> As usual, if you don't like a law the legislature should
>>>> ignore the law instead obeying the state Constitution.
>>>
>>> Why am I not the least bit surprised that the point is sailing
>>> directly over your head?
>>>
>>
>> Next time try less stupid.
>
> Says the guy whose head the point sailed over....LOLOL!!!!

'Re: The GOP War On Democracy Continues'

Are you whining to condemn the GOP, because you're making stupid
that the GOP is good.

--
Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. @
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\
The Church of the Holey Apple .signature 3.1 / \
of Discordian Mysteries. This post insults Islam. Mohamed

On 11/15/2023 3:07 PM, Siri Cruise wrote:
> Yak wrote:
>> On 11/15/2023 12:33 PM, Siri Cruise wrote:
>>> Yak wrote:
>>>> On 11/15/2023 11:35 AM, Siri Cruise wrote:
>>>>> Yak wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/15/2023 3:30 AM, Siri Cruise wrote:
>>>>>>> Jay Santos wrote:
>>>>>>>> Santorum is an illiterate cunt. The "country" is not being run
>>>>>>>> by "pure" democracy — something Santorum (illiterate cunt) can't
>>>>>>>> even define — and *states* having some elements of direct
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Initiatives like Ohio Issue 1 are pure democracy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Initiatives like Issue 1 should not be part of a constitutional
>>>>>> amendment.
>>>>>
>>>>> As usual, if you don't like a law the legislature should ignore the
>>>>> law instead obeying the state Constitution.
>>>>
>>>> Why am I not the least bit surprised that the point is sailing
>>>> directly over your head?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Next time try less stupid.
>>
>> Says the guy whose head the point sailed over....LOLOL!!!!
>
> 'Re: The GOP War On Democracy Continues'
>
> Are you whining to condemn the GOP, because you're making stupid that
> the GOP is good.

Exactly the way I expect the the guy whose head the point went directly
over would misinterpret it.

On 11/15/2023 2:18 PM, Governor Swill wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 07:54:53 -0500, Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote:
>
>> Initiatives like Issue 1 should not be part of a constitutional
>> amendment. That's what the legislature/governor is for. For example,
>> Ohio makes lotteries, casino gambling, bingo part of its constitution.
>> Now they are talking about adding a minimum wage. WTF??? A constitution
>> is not the place to enact policy initiatives that benefit a specific
>> industry or pick specific winners/losers.
>
> That's your opinion.

Welcome to usenet.

On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 18:35:12 +0000, Mitchell Holman
<noemail@verizon.net> wrote:

>Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote in news:uj2kpr$1p2l8$2@dont-email.me:
>
>> On 11/15/2023 9:13 AM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>> Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote in news:uj2f2t$1o45h$1@dont-email.me:
>>>
>>>> On 11/15/2023 3:30 AM, Siri Cruise wrote:
>>>>> Jay Santos wrote:
>>>>>> Santorum is an illiterate cunt. The "country" is not being run by
>>>>>> "pure" democracy — something Santorum (illiterate cunt) can't even
>>>>>> define — and *states* having some elements of direct
>>>>>
>>>>> Initiatives like Ohio Issue 1 are pure democracy.
>>>>
>>>> Initiatives like Issue 1 should not be part of a constitutional
>>>> amendment. That's what the legislature/governor is for.
>>>
>>>
>>> The people should not have a say
>>> in their government because the easily
>>> bribed state reps know what is REALLY
>>> best for them?
>>
>> They have a say.
>
>
> That is what ballot referendums are for.
>
>
>> That's what elections are for. Don't like your rep,
>> elect a new one. Else, why even bother having a house/sen/gov?
>
>
> Who do you think better prepresents
>the public on an issue - the state reps
>or the people themselves?
>
>

The founders intended the Senate to represent the state legislators,
not the people. The people are represented by the House of Rep....

On 11/15/2023 11:22 AM, Governor Swill wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 10:44:32 -0800, Josh Rosenbluth <noway@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>> On 11/15/2023 10:35 AM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>> Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote in news:uj2kpr$1p2l8$2@dont-email.me:
>>>
>>>> That's what elections are for. Don't like your rep,
>>>> elect a new one. Else, why even bother having a house/sen/gov?
>>>
>>> Who do you think better prepresents
>>> the public on an issue - the state reps
>>> or the people themselves?
>>
>> I lived in California for 7 years and the issues presented to the voters
>> were confusing, complicated and sometimes ridiculous. Even though I
>> agree with the outcome of the Ohio vote, I'm with Yak on this one.
>
> So . . . you don't believe states should be able to determine what goes into their
> Constitutions or how to amend them?

I don't think either ordinary legislation or constitutional amendments
should be voted on directly by the people.

Blue Lives Matter wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 18:35:12 +0000, Mitchell Holman
> <noemail@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote in news:uj2kpr$1p2l8$2@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> On 11/15/2023 9:13 AM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>>> Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote in news:uj2f2t$1o45h$1@dont-email.me:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/15/2023 3:30 AM, Siri Cruise wrote:
>>>>>> Jay Santos wrote:
>>>>>>> Santorum is an illiterate cunt. The "country" is not being run by
>>>>>>> "pure" democracy — something Santorum (illiterate cunt) can't even
>>>>>>> define — and *states* having some elements of direct
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Initiatives like Ohio Issue 1 are pure democracy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Initiatives like Issue 1 should not be part of a constitutional
>>>>> amendment. That's what the legislature/governor is for.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The people should not have a say
>>>> in their government because the easily
>>>> bribed state reps know what is REALLY
>>>> best for them?
>>>
>>> They have a say.
>>
>>
>> That is what ballot referendums are for.
>>
>>
>>> That's what elections are for. Don't like your rep,
>>> elect a new one. Else, why even bother having a house/sen/gov?
>>
>>
>> Who do you think better prepresents
>> the public on an issue - the state reps
>> or the people themselves?
>>
>>
>
> The founders intended the Senate Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

--
Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. @
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\
The Church of the Holey Apple .signature 3.1 / \
of Discordian Mysteries. This post insults Islam. Mohamed

Blue Lives Matter <Iron_White@Systemic_Patriotism.KMA> wrote in
news:dvaali5pe17s44nrp54f1jgeovldptcvso@4ax.com:

> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 18:35:12 +0000, Mitchell Holman
> <noemail@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote in news:uj2kpr$1p2l8$2@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> On 11/15/2023 9:13 AM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>>> Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote in news:uj2f2t$1o45h$1@dont-email.me:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/15/2023 3:30 AM, Siri Cruise wrote:
>>>>>> Jay Santos wrote:
>>>>>>> Santorum is an illiterate cunt. The "country" is not being run by
>>>>>>> "pure" democracy — something Santorum (illiterate cunt)
> can't even
>>>>>>> define — and *states* having some elements of direct
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Initiatives like Ohio Issue 1 are pure democracy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Initiatives like Issue 1 should not be part of a constitutional
>>>>> amendment. That's what the legislature/governor is for.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The people should not have a say
>>>> in their government because the easily
>>>> bribed state reps know what is REALLY
>>>> best for them?
>>>
>>> They have a say.
>>
>>
>> That is what ballot referendums are for.
>>
>>
>>> That's what elections are for. Don't like your rep,
>>> elect a new one. Else, why even bother having a house/sen/gov?
>>
>>
>> Who do you think better prepresents
>>the public on an issue - the state reps
>>or the people themselves?
>>
>>
>
> The founders intended the Senate to represent the state legislators,
> not the people. The people are represented by the House of Rep....

So you are claiming that the referendum
process AND state constitution ballot measures
are unconstitutional?

Even Republican states don't believe that....

https://texapedia.info/featured/amending-constitution/

https://www.sos.alabama.gov/alabama-votes/voter/ballot-measures/statewide

On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 03:06:19 +0000, Mitchell Holman
<noemail@verizon.net> wrote:

>Blue Lives Matter <Iron_White@Systemic_Patriotism.KMA> wrote in
>news:dvaali5pe17s44nrp54f1jgeovldptcvso@4ax.com:
>
>> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 18:35:12 +0000, Mitchell Holman
>> <noemail@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote in news:uj2kpr$1p2l8$2@dont-email.me:
>>>
>>>> On 11/15/2023 9:13 AM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>>>> Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote in news:uj2f2t$1o45h$1@dont-email.me:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/15/2023 3:30 AM, Siri Cruise wrote:
>>>>>>> Jay Santos wrote:
>>>>>>>> Santorum is an illiterate cunt. The "country" is not being run by
>>>>>>>> "pure" democracy — something Santorum (illiterate cunt)
>> can't even
>>>>>>>> define — and *states* having some elements of direct
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Initiatives like Ohio Issue 1 are pure democracy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Initiatives like Issue 1 should not be part of a constitutional
>>>>>> amendment. That's what the legislature/governor is for.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The people should not have a say
>>>>> in their government because the easily
>>>>> bribed state reps know what is REALLY
>>>>> best for them?
>>>>
>>>> They have a say.
>>>
>>>
>>> That is what ballot referendums are for.
>>>
>>>
>>>> That's what elections are for. Don't like your rep,
>>>> elect a new one. Else, why even bother having a house/sen/gov?
>>>
>>>
>>> Who do you think better prepresents
>>>the public on an issue - the state reps
>>>or the people themselves?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The founders intended the Senate to represent the state legislators,
>> not the people. The people are represented by the House of Rep....
>
>
> So you are claiming that the referendum
>process AND state constitution ballot measures
>are unconstitutional?

???????

> Even Republican states don't believe that....
>
>
>
>https://texapedia.info/featured/amending-constitution/
>
>https://www.sos.alabama.gov/alabama-votes/voter/ballot-measures/statewide

<shaking my head and smiling> Dumbshit Hollowhead apparently doesn't
understand that "referendum process AND state constitution ballot
measures" are quite different from the state's election of it's
senators.

On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 12:58:53 -0800, Josh Rosenbluth <noway@nowhere.com> wrote:

>On 11/15/2023 11:22 AM, Governor Swill wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 10:44:32 -0800, Josh Rosenbluth <noway@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/15/2023 10:35 AM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>>> Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote in news:uj2kpr$1p2l8$2@dont-email.me:
>>>>
>>>>> That's what elections are for. Don't like your rep,
>>>>> elect a new one. Else, why even bother having a house/sen/gov?
>>>>
>>>> Who do you think better prepresents
>>>> the public on an issue - the state reps
>>>> or the people themselves?
>>>
>>> I lived in California for 7 years and the issues presented to the voters
>>> were confusing, complicated and sometimes ridiculous. Even though I
>>> agree with the outcome of the Ohio vote, I'm with Yak on this one.
>>
>> So . . . you don't believe states should be able to determine what goes into their
>> Constitutions or how to amend them?
>
>I don't think either ordinary legislation or constitutional amendments
>should be voted on directly by the people.

I disagree. If states want to practice pure democracy rather than republicanism, I don't
see the problem.

Swill
--
"I don't want everybody to vote. As a matter of fact, our leverage in
the elections quite candidly goes up as the voting populace goes down."
- Paul Weyrich, co founder of Heritage Foundation and Moral Majority

Not left, not right, https://www.forwardparty.com/

Heroyam slava! Glory to the Heroes!

Sláva Ukrajíni! Glory to Ukraine!

Putin tse prezervatyv! Putin is a condom!

Go here to donate to Ukrainian relief.
<https://www2.deloitte.com/ua/uk/pages/registration-forms/help-cities.html>

On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 05:02:10 -0500, Blue Lives Matter <Iron_White@Systemic_Patriotism.KMA>
wrote:

>On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 03:06:19 +0000, Mitchell Holman
><noemail@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>Blue Lives Matter <Iron_White@Systemic_Patriotism.KMA> wrote in
>>news:dvaali5pe17s44nrp54f1jgeovldptcvso@4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 18:35:12 +0000, Mitchell Holman
>>> <noemail@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote in news:uj2kpr$1p2l8$2@dont-email.me:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/15/2023 9:13 AM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>>>>> Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote in news:uj2f2t$1o45h$1@dont-email.me:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/15/2023 3:30 AM, Siri Cruise wrote:
>>>>>>>> Jay Santos wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Santorum is an illiterate cunt. The "country" is not being run by
>>>>>>>>> "pure" democracy — something Santorum (illiterate cunt)
>>> can't even
>>>>>>>>> define — and *states* having some elements of direct
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Initiatives like Ohio Issue 1 are pure democracy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Initiatives like Issue 1 should not be part of a constitutional
>>>>>>> amendment. That's what the legislature/governor is for.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The people should not have a say
>>>>>> in their government because the easily
>>>>>> bribed state reps know what is REALLY
>>>>>> best for them?
>>>>>
>>>>> They have a say.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That is what ballot referendums are for.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> That's what elections are for. Don't like your rep,
>>>>> elect a new one. Else, why even bother having a house/sen/gov?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Who do you think better prepresents
>>>>the public on an issue - the state reps
>>>>or the people themselves?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> The founders intended the Senate to represent the state legislators,
>>> not the people.

And found the process corruption ridden and amended the Constitution to allow the People
to select their Senators. Anybody wanting to let the legislators do it is intent on
removing power from the People.

>>>The people are represented by the House of Rep....
>>
>>
>> So you are claiming that the referendum
>>process AND state constitution ballot measures
>>are unconstitutional?
>
>???????
>
>> Even Republican states don't believe that....
>>
>>
>>
>>https://texapedia.info/featured/amending-constitution/
>>
>>https://www.sos.alabama.gov/alabama-votes/voter/ballot-measures/statewide
>
>
><shaking my head and smiling> Dumbshit Hollowhead apparently doesn't
>understand that "referendum process AND state constitution ballot
>measures" are quite different from the state's election of it's
>senators.

Dumbshit BLM doesn't get it. All these are directly voted on by the People as they should
be.

Swill
--
"I don't want everybody to vote. As a matter of fact, our leverage in
the elections quite candidly goes up as the voting populace goes down."
- Paul Weyrich, co founder of Heritage Foundation and Moral Majority

Not left, not right, https://www.forwardparty.com/

Heroyam slava! Glory to the Heroes!

Sláva Ukrajíni! Glory to Ukraine!

Putin tse prezervatyv! Putin is a condom!

Go here to donate to Ukrainian relief.
<https://www2.deloitte.com/ua/uk/pages/registration-forms/help-cities.html>

On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 14:36:54 -0500, Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote:

>On 11/15/2023 2:20 PM, Governor Swill wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 09:32:27 -0500, Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/15/2023 9:13 AM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>>> Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote in news:uj2f2t$1o45h$1@dont-email.me:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/15/2023 3:30 AM, Siri Cruise wrote:
>>>>>> Jay Santos wrote:
>>>>>>> Santorum is an illiterate cunt. The "country" is not being run by
>>>>>>> "pure" democracy — something Santorum (illiterate cunt) can't even
>>>>>>> define — and *states* having some elements of direct
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Initiatives like Ohio Issue 1 are pure democracy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Initiatives like Issue 1 should not be part of a constitutional
>>>>> amendment. That's what the legislature/governor is for.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The people should not have a say
>>>> in their government because the easily
>>>> bribed state reps know what is REALLY
>>>> best for them?
>>>
>>> They have a say. That's what elections are for. Don't like your rep,
>>> elect a new one. Else, why even bother having a house/sen/gov?
>>
>> Then why are you complaining about how Ohioans choose to govern themselves?
>
>They can govern themselves however they want; I'm simply opining that
>their approach to using the constitution to legislate, instead of the
>legislature, is misplaced.

In your opinion. Since you're not an Ohioan, your opinion is irrelevant.

Swill
--
"I don't want everybody to vote. As a matter of fact, our leverage in
the elections quite candidly goes up as the voting populace goes down."
- Paul Weyrich, co founder of Heritage Foundation and Moral Majority

Not left, not right, https://www.forwardparty.com/

Heroyam slava! Glory to the Heroes!

Sláva Ukrajíni! Glory to Ukraine!

Putin tse prezervatyv! Putin is a condom!

Go here to donate to Ukrainian relief.
<https://www2.deloitte.com/ua/uk/pages/registration-forms/help-cities.html>

On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 14:38:05 -0500, Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote:

>On 11/15/2023 2:22 PM, Governor Swill wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 07:54:53 -0500, Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote:
>>
>>> They don't call them dumb masses without reason. Oddly enough, the Ohio
>>> democratic party, which fought tooth and nail to keep the vote required
>>> to amend the OH constitution at 50%+1, requires 60% to amend its
>>> constitution/by-laws. Go figger.
>>
>> Isn't that their business?
>
>Sure. Hypocrisy is definitely their business.

*laughs and points*

Swill
--
"I don't want everybody to vote. As a matter of fact, our leverage in
the elections quite candidly goes up as the voting populace goes down."
- Paul Weyrich, co founder of Heritage Foundation and Moral Majority

Not left, not right, https://www.forwardparty.com/

Heroyam slava! Glory to the Heroes!

Sláva Ukrajíni! Glory to Ukraine!

Putin tse prezervatyv! Putin is a condom!

Go here to donate to Ukrainian relief.
<https://www2.deloitte.com/ua/uk/pages/registration-forms/help-cities.html>

|
| Trump says the quiet part out loud: He'll destroy democracy
| ...
<https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/11/17/trump-2024-newsletter/>

--bks

On 11/16/2023 3:08 AM, Governor Swill wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 12:58:53 -0800, Josh Rosenbluth <noway@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>> On 11/15/2023 11:22 AM, Governor Swill wrote:
>>> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 10:44:32 -0800, Josh Rosenbluth <noway@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/15/2023 10:35 AM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>>>> Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote in news:uj2kpr$1p2l8$2@dont-email.me:
>>>>>
>>>>>> That's what elections are for. Don't like your rep,
>>>>>> elect a new one. Else, why even bother having a house/sen/gov?
>>>>>
>>>>> Who do you think better prepresents
>>>>> the public on an issue - the state reps
>>>>> or the people themselves?
>>>>
>>>> I lived in California for 7 years and the issues presented to the voters
>>>> were confusing, complicated and sometimes ridiculous. Even though I
>>>> agree with the outcome of the Ohio vote, I'm with Yak on this one.
>>>
>>> So . . . you don't believe states should be able to determine what goes into their
>>> Constitutions or how to amend them?
>>
>> I don't think either ordinary legislation or constitutional amendments
>> should be voted on directly by the people.
>
> I disagree. If states want to practice pure democracy rather than republicanism, I don't
> see the problem.

Pure democracy is consistent with republicanism.

Max Boot wrote:
> On 11/16/2023 3:08 AM, Governor Swill wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 12:58:53 -0800, Josh Rosenbluth
>> <noway@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/15/2023 11:22 AM, Governor Swill wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 10:44:32 -0800, Josh Rosenbluth
>>>> <noway@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/15/2023 10:35 AM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>>>>> Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote in news:uj2kpr$1p2l8$2@dont-email.me:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     That's what elections are for. Don't like your rep,
>>>>>>> elect a new one. Else, why even bother having a house/sen/gov?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>          Who do you think better prepresents
>>>>>> the public on an issue - the state reps
>>>>>> or the people themselves?
>>>>>
>>>>> I lived in California for 7 years and the issues presented to
>>>>> the voters
>>>>> were confusing, complicated and sometimes ridiculous. Even
>>>>> though I
>>>>> agree with the outcome of the Ohio vote, I'm with Yak on this
>>>>> one.
>>>>
>>>> So . . . you don't believe states should be able to determine
>>>> what goes into their
>>>> Constitutions or how to amend them?
>>>
>>> I don't think either ordinary legislation or constitutional
>>> amendments
>>> should be voted on directly by the people.
>>
>> I disagree.  If states want to practice pure democracy rather
>> than republicanism, I don't
>> see the problem.
>
> Pure democracy is consistent with republicanism.
>

Are we claiming Switzerland might be a republic? Oh my!

--
Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. @
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\
The Church of the Holey Apple .signature 3.1 / \
of Discordian Mysteries. This post insults Islam. Mohamed

On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 15:49:06 -0000 (UTC), bks@panix.com (Bradley K. Sherman) wrote:

> |
> | Trump says the quiet part out loud: He'll destroy democracy
> | ...
><https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/11/17/trump-2024-newsletter/>
>
> --bks

Jane Playme thinks that's a good idea.

Swill
--
"I don't want everybody to vote. As a matter of fact, our leverage in
the elections quite candidly goes up as the voting populace goes down."
- Paul Weyrich, co founder of Heritage Foundation and Moral Majority

Not left, not right, https://www.forwardparty.com/

Heroyam slava! Glory to the Heroes!

Sláva Ukrajíni! Glory to Ukraine!

Putin tse prezervatyv! Putin is a condom!

Go here to donate to Ukrainian relief.
<https://www2.deloitte.com/ua/uk/pages/registration-forms/help-cities.html>

Yak wrote:
> On 11/15/2023 3:30 AM, Siri Cruise wrote:
>> Jay Santos wrote:
>>> Santorum is an illiterate cunt. The "country" is not being run by "pure"
>>> democracy — something Santorum (illiterate cunt) can't even define — and
>>> *states* having some elements of direct
>>
>> Initiatives like Ohio Issue 1 are pure democracy.
>
> Initiatives like Issue 1 should not be part of a constitutional amendment.
> That's what the legislature/governor is for. For example, Ohio makes
> lotteries, casino gambling, bingo part of its constitution. Now they are
> talking about adding a minimum wage. WTF??? A constitution is not the place
> to enact policy initiatives that benefit a specific industry or pick
> specific winners/losers.

If that's what the voters want. Don't like it, don't
live there.

>> They are placed on the ballot by the people not the legislature and then
>> passed or rejected by the people without any participation of the
>> legislature. Initiatives were progressive reforms in various states
>> around 1900.
>
> They don't call them dumb masses without reason. Oddly enough, the Ohio
> democratic party, which fought tooth and nail to keep the vote required to
> amend the OH constitution at 50%+1, requires 60% to amend its
> constitution/by-laws. Go figger.

https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/politics/2023/11/08/why-ohio-issue-1-won-what-it-means-for-future-elections/71226543007/

"In an August special election, Republicans attempted
to make it harder to amend the state constitution,
asking voters to raise the threshold to 60%. If that
measure had passed, it would have blocked the abortion
rights amendment's victory on Tuesday. But voters
overwhelmingly rejected the August issue − a harbinger
of what was to come."

>> They were a counter to legislative incompetence and corruption.
>
> Then why bother even having a legislature?

You're wrongly assuming that everything is an amendment
related issue.

>> Ohio enacted them due to the corrupt legislature which republicans have
>> recreated as the new corrupt Ohio legislature.
>>
>

Yak wrote:
> On 11/15/2023 2:20 PM, Governor Swill wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 09:32:27 -0500, Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote:
>>> On 11/15/2023 9:13 AM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>>> Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote in news:uj2f2t$1o45h$1@dont-email.me:
>>>>> On 11/15/2023 3:30 AM, Siri Cruise wrote:
>>>>>> Jay Santos wrote:
>>>>>>> Santorum is an illiterate cunt. The "country" is not being run by
>>>>>>> "pure" democracy — something Santorum (illiterate cunt) can't even
>>>>>>> define — and *states* having some elements of direct
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Initiatives like Ohio Issue 1 are pure democracy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Initiatives like Issue 1 should not be part of a constitutional
>>>>> amendment.  That's what the legislature/governor is for.
>>>>
>>>>       The people should not have a say
>>>> in their government because the easily
>>>> bribed state reps know what is REALLY
>>>> best for them?
>>>
>>> They have a say. That's what elections are for. Don't like your rep,
>>> elect a new one. Else, why even bother having a house/sen/gov?
>>
>> Then why are you complaining about how Ohioans choose to govern themselves?
>
> They can govern themselves however they want; I'm simply opining that their
> approach to using the constitution to legislate, instead of the
> legislature, is misplaced.
>
To paraphrase you, "why have a constitution"?

Blue Lives Matter wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 18:35:12 +0000, Mitchell Holman
> <noemail@verizon.net> wrote:
>> Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote in news:uj2kpr$1p2l8$2@dont-email.me:
>>> On 11/15/2023 9:13 AM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>>> Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote in news:uj2f2t$1o45h$1@dont-email.me:
>>>>> On 11/15/2023 3:30 AM, Siri Cruise wrote:
>>>>>> Jay Santos wrote:
>>>>>>> Santorum is an illiterate cunt. The "country" is not being run by
>>>>>>> "pure" democracy — something Santorum (illiterate cunt) can't even
>>>>>>> define — and *states* having some elements of direct
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Initiatives like Ohio Issue 1 are pure democracy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Initiatives like Issue 1 should not be part of a constitutional
>>>>> amendment. That's what the legislature/governor is for.
>>>>
>>>> The people should not have a say
>>>> in their government because the easily
>>>> bribed state reps know what is REALLY
>>>> best for them?
>>>
>>> They have a say.
>>
>> That is what ballot referendums are for.
>>
>>> That's what elections are for. Don't like your rep,
>>> elect a new one. Else, why even bother having a house/sen/gov?
>>
>> Who do you think better prepresents
>> the public on an issue - the state reps
>> or the people themselves?
>
> The founders intended the Senate to represent the state legislators,

Represent *who*?

> not the people. The people are represented by the House of Rep....

On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 23:43:44 -0700, Gronk <invalide@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

>Blue Lives Matter wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 18:35:12 +0000, Mitchell Holman
>> <noemail@verizon.net> wrote:
>>> Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote in news:uj2kpr$1p2l8$2@dont-email.me:
>>>> On 11/15/2023 9:13 AM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>>>> Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote in news:uj2f2t$1o45h$1@dont-email.me:
>>>>>> On 11/15/2023 3:30 AM, Siri Cruise wrote:
>>>>>>> Jay Santos wrote:
>>>>>>>> Santorum is an illiterate cunt. The "country" is not being run by
>>>>>>>> "pure" democracy — something Santorum (illiterate cunt) can't even
>>>>>>>> define — and *states* having some elements of direct
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Initiatives like Ohio Issue 1 are pure democracy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Initiatives like Issue 1 should not be part of a constitutional
>>>>>> amendment. That's what the legislature/governor is for.
>>>>>
>>>>> The people should not have a say
>>>>> in their government because the easily
>>>>> bribed state reps know what is REALLY
>>>>> best for them?
>>>>
>>>> They have a say.
>>>
>>> That is what ballot referendums are for.
>>>
>>>> That's what elections are for. Don't like your rep,
>>>> elect a new one. Else, why even bother having a house/sen/gov?
>>>
>>> Who do you think better prepresents
>>> the public on an issue - the state reps
>>> or the people themselves?
>>
>> The founders intended the Senate to represent the state legislators,
>
>Represent *who*?

"The state legislators," or perhaps, more accurately, the state
government, as in states rights.

>> not the people. The people are represented by the House of Rep....
>

On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 03:13:12 -0500, Blue Lives Matter <Iron_White@Systemic_Patriotism.KMA>
wrote:

>On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 23:43:44 -0700, Gronk <invalide@invalid.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>Blue Lives Matter wrote:
>>> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 18:35:12 +0000, Mitchell Holman
>>> <noemail@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>> Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote in news:uj2kpr$1p2l8$2@dont-email.me:
>>>>> On 11/15/2023 9:13 AM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>>>>> Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote in news:uj2f2t$1o45h$1@dont-email.me:
>>>>>>> On 11/15/2023 3:30 AM, Siri Cruise wrote:
>>>>>>>> Jay Santos wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Santorum is an illiterate cunt. The "country" is not being run by
>>>>>>>>> "pure" democracy — something Santorum (illiterate cunt) can't even
>>>>>>>>> define — and *states* having some elements of direct
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Initiatives like Ohio Issue 1 are pure democracy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Initiatives like Issue 1 should not be part of a constitutional
>>>>>>> amendment. That's what the legislature/governor is for.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The people should not have a say
>>>>>> in their government because the easily
>>>>>> bribed state reps know what is REALLY
>>>>>> best for them?
>>>>>
>>>>> They have a say.
>>>>
>>>> That is what ballot referendums are for.
>>>>
>>>>> That's what elections are for. Don't like your rep,
>>>>> elect a new one. Else, why even bother having a house/sen/gov?
>>>>
>>>> Who do you think better prepresents
>>>> the public on an issue - the state reps
>>>> or the people themselves?
>>>
>>> The founders intended the Senate to represent the state legislators,
>>
>>Represent *who*?
>
>"The state legislators," or perhaps, more accurately, the state
>government, as in states rights.

Which the Civil War settled. Federal supremacy is the order of the day. United we stand,
divided we fall and all that.

Swill
--
"I don't want everybody to vote. As a matter of fact, our leverage in
the elections quite candidly goes up as the voting populace goes down."
- Paul Weyrich, co founder of Heritage Foundation and Moral Majority

Not left, not right, https://www.forwardparty.com/

Heroyam slava! Glory to the Heroes!

Sláva Ukrajíni! Glory to Ukraine!

Putin tse prezervatyv! Putin is a condom!

Go here to donate to Ukrainian relief.
<https://www2.deloitte.com/ua/uk/pages/registration-forms/help-cities.html>

On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 23:41:48 -0700, Gronk <invalide@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>Yak wrote:
>> On 11/15/2023 2:20 PM, Governor Swill wrote:
>>> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 09:32:27 -0500, Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote:
>>>> On 11/15/2023 9:13 AM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>>>> Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote in news:uj2f2t$1o45h$1@dont-email.me:
>>>>>> On 11/15/2023 3:30 AM, Siri Cruise wrote:
>>>>>>> Jay Santos wrote:
>>>>>>>> Santorum is an illiterate cunt. The "country" is not being run by
>>>>>>>> "pure" democracy — something Santorum (illiterate cunt) can't even
>>>>>>>> define — and *states* having some elements of direct
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Initiatives like Ohio Issue 1 are pure democracy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Initiatives like Issue 1 should not be part of a constitutional
>>>>>> amendment.  That's what the legislature/governor is for.
>>>>>
>>>>>       The people should not have a say
>>>>> in their government because the easily
>>>>> bribed state reps know what is REALLY
>>>>> best for them?
>>>>
>>>> They have a say. That's what elections are for. Don't like your rep,
>>>> elect a new one. Else, why even bother having a house/sen/gov?
>>>
>>> Then why are you complaining about how Ohioans choose to govern themselves?
>>
>> They can govern themselves however they want; I'm simply opining that their
>> approach to using the constitution to legislate, instead of the
>> legislature, is misplaced.

They aren't "using the Constitution" to legislate. They're deferring certain questions to
the People including Constitutional amendments.

How would YOU suggest they amend their Constitution?
>To paraphrase you, "why have a constitution"?

More like, "why have your own constitution".

Swill
--
"I don't want everybody to vote. As a matter of fact, our leverage in
the elections quite candidly goes up as the voting populace goes down."
- Paul Weyrich, co founder of Heritage Foundation and Moral Majority

Not left, not right, https://www.forwardparty.com/

Heroyam slava! Glory to the Heroes!

Sláva Ukrajíni! Glory to Ukraine!

Putin tse prezervatyv! Putin is a condom!

Go here to donate to Ukrainian relief.
<https://www2.deloitte.com/ua/uk/pages/registration-forms/help-cities.html>

Blue Lives Matter <Iron_White@Systemic_Patriotism.KMA> wrote in
news:up4mli52sliu97ul8r8s1m9bt4q050hpvf@4ax.com:

> On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 23:43:44 -0700, Gronk <invalide@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>>Blue Lives Matter wrote:
>>> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 18:35:12 +0000, Mitchell Holman
>>> <noemail@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>> Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote in news:uj2kpr$1p2l8$2@dont-email.me:
>>>>> On 11/15/2023 9:13 AM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>>>>> Yak <Yak@inbox.com> wrote in news:uj2f2t$1o45h$1@dont-email.me:
>>>>>>> On 11/15/2023 3:30 AM, Siri Cruise wrote:
>>>>>>>> Jay Santos wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Santorum is an illiterate cunt. The "country" is not being run
> by
>>>>>>>>> "pure" democracy — something Santorum (illiterate cunt)
> can't even
>>>>>>>>> define — and *states* having some elements of direct
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Initiatives like Ohio Issue 1 are pure democracy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Initiatives like Issue 1 should not be part of a constitutional
>>>>>>> amendment. That's what the legislature/governor is for.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The people should not have a say
>>>>>> in their government because the easily
>>>>>> bribed state reps know what is REALLY
>>>>>> best for them?
>>>>>
>>>>> They have a say.
>>>>
>>>> That is what ballot referendums are for.
>>>>
>>>>> That's what elections are for. Don't like your rep,
>>>>> elect a new one. Else, why even bother having a house/sen/gov?
>>>>
>>>> Who do you think better prepresents
>>>> the public on an issue - the state reps
>>>> or the people themselves?
>>>
>>> The founders intended the Senate to represent the state legislators,
>>
>>Represent *who*?
>
> "The state legislators," or perhaps, more accurately, the state
> government, as in states rights.

Or more accurately, the lobbyists
who PAY for the state legislators

https://constitutioncenter.org/the-constitution/amendments/amendment-
xvii/interpretations/147