On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 13:24:51 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 7/13/2021 5:42 PM, Bill wrote:
>> On 7/13/2021 6:19 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 7/13/2021 1:02 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>>> On 7/11/2021 4:22 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>> Again, we come back to your incredible lack of self-awareness.  ...and
>>>>> your lying, for that matter.  More evidence of your leftism.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Did you mean to reply to me?  I don't advertise a political lean, but
>>>> if I did, it would NOT be left..
>>>
>>>
>>> LOL, Best to lean right vs. WRONG.
>>
>> Maybe so, but I'll admit neither side is made up of "saints"...
>> Put nationalized healthcare on the right (i.e. create a national
>> healthcare system) and a I'll be a stronger advocate for the right.
>
>
>We need people that understand how to handle money rather than give it away.
>
>FWIW the more you have the government do for you the more dependent you
>will become on the government. That is the Democrat leadership plan.
>
>
>That and give every one the right to vote, citizens and non citizens.

You have to look at what the ACA has done.

More people with health care insurance, that is good.

The reduction in providers of health care insurance, is the bad.

ACA was written by the lawyers and lobbyist of the insurance
providers.

On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 13:33:52 -0500, Markem618 <markrm618@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 13:24:51 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>wrote:
>
>>On 7/13/2021 5:42 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> On 7/13/2021 6:19 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 7/13/2021 1:02 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>>>> On 7/11/2021 4:22 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>>> Again, we come back to your incredible lack of self-awareness.  ...and
>>>>>> your lying, for that matter.  More evidence of your leftism.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Did you mean to reply to me?  I don't advertise a political lean, but
>>>>> if I did, it would NOT be left..
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> LOL, Best to lean right vs. WRONG.
>>>
>>> Maybe so, but I'll admit neither side is made up of "saints"...
>>> Put nationalized healthcare on the right (i.e. create a national
>>> healthcare system) and a I'll be a stronger advocate for the right.
>>
>>
>>We need people that understand how to handle money rather than give it away.
>>
>>FWIW the more you have the government do for you the more dependent you
>>will become on the government. That is the Democrat leadership plan.
>>
>>
>>That and give every one the right to vote, citizens and non citizens.
>
>You have to look at what the ACA has done.
>
>More people with health care insurance, that is good.

More people with unaffordable health care, that is bad. More people
spending far more with less coverage, that is bad.
>
>The reduction in providers of health care insurance, is the bad.

Loss of health care (doctors AND hospitals) in rural areas is real
bad. Corporate (hospital) takeover of private practice is real bad.
Doctors going out of business or retiring and going into other
businesses is bad.

>ACA was written by the lawyers and lobbyist of the insurance
>providers.

That's how the government works and that's how leftists want your
health care to work.

On 7/14/2021 1:33 PM, Markem618 wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 13:24:51 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/13/2021 5:42 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> On 7/13/2021 6:19 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 7/13/2021 1:02 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>>>> On 7/11/2021 4:22 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>>> Again, we come back to your incredible lack of self-awareness.  ...and
>>>>>> your lying, for that matter.  More evidence of your leftism.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Did you mean to reply to me?  I don't advertise a political lean, but
>>>>> if I did, it would NOT be left..
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> LOL, Best to lean right vs. WRONG.
>>>
>>> Maybe so, but I'll admit neither side is made up of "saints"...
>>> Put nationalized healthcare on the right (i.e. create a national
>>> healthcare system) and a I'll be a stronger advocate for the right.
>>
>>
>> We need people that understand how to handle money rather than give it away.
>>
>> FWIW the more you have the government do for you the more dependent you
>> will become on the government. That is the Democrat leadership plan.
>>
>>
>> That and give every one the right to vote, citizens and non citizens.
>
> You have to look at what the ACA has done.
>
> More people with health care insurance, that is good.

Good if you can get in to actually see a doctor. I have heard that many
doctors simply do not accept insurance.

>
> The reduction in providers of health care insurance, is the bad.

Yes

>
> ACA was written by the lawyers and lobbyist of the insurance
> providers.
>

On 7/14/2021 11:32 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
> On 7/13/2021 6:19 PM, Leon wrote:

>> LOL, Best to lean right vs. WRONG.
>
> In the post-trump era, after the capitol insanity, I'd say I'm pretty
> well firmly in the center.  Both sides are nothing but greed -- it's all
> about money and power.  I have no political loyalty -- either party is
> just moving further and further extreme.  No one is for the people.

Yes, not enough team spirit. I guess what you wrote is another of way
of expressing my thought that "neither party consists entirely of
saints!" Many of the genuinely rich don't pay their fair share of taxes
and surely there are people drawing more unemployment benefits than they
should. To be fair, not everyone starts from the same place in life, or
attends schools of the same quality. There were 3 high schools in my
hometown, and they reflected 3 socio-economic levels and 3 levels of
property taxes. Even in the 2nd one, which I attended, there were kids
boasting about family membership in the "yacht club". I was content to
come to school wearing clothes which I mostly paid for with my part time
job! : ) And I bet I learned to weld better and take care of my car
better than any of those "yacht club" kids, to say nothing of developing
some interest and knowledge about woodworking! : )

On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 19:10:33 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 7/14/2021 1:33 PM, Markem618 wrote:
>> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 13:24:51 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/13/2021 5:42 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>> On 7/13/2021 6:19 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>> On 7/13/2021 1:02 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/11/2021 4:22 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>>>> Again, we come back to your incredible lack of self-awareness.  ...and
>>>>>>> your lying, for that matter.  More evidence of your leftism.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Did you mean to reply to me?  I don't advertise a political lean, but
>>>>>> if I did, it would NOT be left..
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> LOL, Best to lean right vs. WRONG.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe so, but I'll admit neither side is made up of "saints"...
>>>> Put nationalized healthcare on the right (i.e. create a national
>>>> healthcare system) and a I'll be a stronger advocate for the right.
>>>
>>>
>>> We need people that understand how to handle money rather than give it away.
>>>
>>> FWIW the more you have the government do for you the more dependent you
>>> will become on the government. That is the Democrat leadership plan.
>>>
>>>
>>> That and give every one the right to vote, citizens and non citizens.
>>
>> You have to look at what the ACA has done.
>>
>> More people with health care insurance, that is good.
>
>Good if you can get in to actually see a doctor. I have heard that many
>doctors simply do not accept insurance.
>
>
>>
>> The reduction in providers of health care insurance, is the bad.
>
>Yes
>
>>
>> ACA was written by the lawyers and lobbyist of the insurance
>> providers.
>>
The Canadian system, is far from "perfect" but it sure beats anything
that has been implemented or proposed in the USA.

I can be guaranteed basic health care will not bankrupt me and I will
get emergency care reguardless of my ability to pay. I can buy private
insurance to enhance my basic coverage to include prescription drugs
and dental.
Drugs required for in hospital treatment are covered as are many drugs
for seniors.

On 7/14/2021 12:45 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 11:32:28 -0400, Michael Trew<mt999999@ymail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/13/2021 6:19 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 7/13/2021 1:02 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>>> On 7/11/2021 4:22 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>> Again, we come back to your incredible lack of self-awareness. ...and
>>>>> your lying, for that matter. More evidence of your leftism.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Did you mean to reply to me? I don't advertise a political lean, but
>>>> if I did, it would NOT be left..
>>>
>>>
>>> LOL, Best to lean right vs. WRONG.
>>
>> In the post-trump era, after the capitol insanity, I'd say I'm pretty
>> well firmly in the center. Both sides are nothing but greed -- it's all
>> about money and power. I have no political loyalty -- either party is
>> just moving further and further extreme. No one is for the people.
>
>
> By stating the above, you're CLEARLY not in the center. The Capitol
> insanity was a minor blip compared to what happened the whole year,
> all over the country, in the "mostly peaceful demonstrations".
> Billions of dollars in damage and thousands (mostly minority)
> businesses were burned to the ground and many killed. In the capitol
> riot, only one was killed, one of the "rioters", shot in the back.

OK, more of a back story... I always leaned conservative, and I voted
for Trump. I have ZERO tolerance for the insane left push back after
the George Floyd thing was blown WAY out of proportion. I would have
taken care of those rioters very quickly after they started looting and
burning cities down... pop, pop, pop...

Now then, after how Trump has reacted since losing the election, the
whole of the Republican party with him, I rethinking my political
beliefs. I never had a tolerance for Democrats. Then, after seeing how
Republicans can just "oust" Liz Cheney, amongst other things... I've
realized that neither side is any better than the other, they are all
crooks and thieves. Political parts are a cancer to our country, and
should be abolished.

On 7/14/2021 9:54 PM, Bill wrote:
> On 7/14/2021 11:32 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
>> On 7/13/2021 6:19 PM, Leon wrote:
>
>>> LOL, Best to lean right vs. WRONG.
>>
>> In the post-trump era, after the capitol insanity, I'd say I'm pretty
>> well firmly in the center. Both sides are nothing but greed -- it's
>> all about money and power. I have no political loyalty -- either
>> party is just moving further and further extreme. No one is for the
>> people.
>
> Yes, not enough team spirit. I guess what you wrote is another of way of
> expressing my thought that "neither party consists entirely of saints!"
> Many of the genuinely rich don't pay their fair share of taxes and
> surely there are people drawing more unemployment benefits than they
> should. To be fair, not everyone starts from the same place in life, or
> attends schools of the same quality. There were 3 high schools in my
> hometown, and they reflected 3 socio-economic levels and 3 levels of
> property taxes. Even in the 2nd one, which I attended, there were kids
> boasting about family membership in the "yacht club". I was content to
> come to school wearing clothes which I mostly paid for with my part time
> job! : ) And I bet I learned to weld better and take care of my car
> better than any of those "yacht club" kids, to say nothing of developing
> some interest and knowledge about woodworking! : )

My high school was in a very small town - only one school. We were all
poor :)

Yes, I'd agree with you about "saints". I'll take it a step further
though -- I think that political parties are a menace, and should be
done away with. Vote people in based on their beliefs... they shouldn't
have to sell their soul and morals to one of the big two parties...
least they be silenced by their party after stepping out of line.

On 7/15/2021 2:55 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
> On 7/14/2021 9:54 PM, Bill wrote:

> My high school was in a very small town - only one school.  We were all
> poor :)
>
> Yes, I'd agree with you about "saints".  I'll take it a step further
> though -- I think that political parties are a menace, and should be
> done away with.  Vote people in based on their beliefs... they shouldn't
> have to sell their soul and morals to one of the big two parties...
> least they be silenced by their party after stepping out of line.

Do away with lobbyists and "payola" and get rid of the marketplace upon
which politicians can sell their souls, and maybe that will help. I
merely described a strategy to help to solve the problem that some of us
have observed.

There has been a lot of effort to give corporations the same rights of
people, except corporations don't go to jail. For instance, if a
corporation pollutes a river, they may pay a fine, but they basically
may get away with it. If an individual (as recklessly) caused the same
"damage", they would be in jail. One can think of numerous examples like
this, with some involving the mistreatment of people as well.

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>On 7/14/2021 1:33 PM, Markem618 wrote:
>> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 13:24:51 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>

>>
>> You have to look at what the ACA has done.
>>
>> More people with health care insurance, that is good.
>
>Good if you can get in to actually see a doctor. I have heard that many
>doctors simply do not accept insurance.

I haven't heard that, nor have I ever experienced it.

On 7/15/2021 9:19 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>> On 7/14/2021 1:33 PM, Markem618 wrote:
>>> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 13:24:51 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>
>>>
>>> You have to look at what the ACA has done.
>>>
>>> More people with health care insurance, that is good.
>>
>> Good if you can get in to actually see a doctor. I have heard that many
>> doctors simply do not accept insurance.
>
> I haven't heard that, nor have I ever experienced it.
>

My doctor considered not taking me as a patient unless I paid cash. My
father was already a patient so he made an exception.

There are several groups of doctors that refuse insurance and offer you
a more realistic cost but only accept cash/credit card. They team up
with specific pharmacies and labs and some hospitals that work together.
That has been going on since the mid 90's that I know of.

Insurance introduces a middle man that is making a large sum of the
money. Doctors, pay a lot for personnel to process insurance claims so
that they actually get paid.

So basically medical costs are expensive BECAUSE they have to make up
for the discounts that they have to give to the insurance company.
Typically the insurance company gets a discount from the cost that a
medical provider charges. Because most people have insurance the
medical provider has to increase what they charge to the uninsured to be
able get what they need, to stay in business, from the insurance company.

My insurance provider gives me a break down of all medical costs and
drug costs. They show what they were billed and they show what they
actually paid. Most often the medical provider gets about 30~40% of
what they billed the insurance company for.

The groups of doctors I mentioned above don't accept insurance because
they charge their cash/credit card customers the amount that they would
have been paid by the insurance company. And in turn they don't need
staff to process insurance claims.

Many years ago most people could afford medical costs because insurance
companies were not involved. And eventually the company you worked for
provided free medical insurance and that all went out the door.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 10:13:10 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 7/15/2021 9:19 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>> On 7/14/2021 1:33 PM, Markem618 wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 13:24:51 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>
>>>>
>>>> You have to look at what the ACA has done.
>>>>
>>>> More people with health care insurance, that is good.
>>>
>>> Good if you can get in to actually see a doctor. I have heard that many
>>> doctors simply do not accept insurance.
>>
>> I haven't heard that, nor have I ever experienced it.
>>
>
>
>My doctor considered not taking me as a patient unless I paid cash. My
>father was already a patient so he made an exception.

My PCP would not take on any new Medicare or Medicaid patients unless
they'd been patients before going on government programs. When
Obamacare came along, he closed is doors and went into a concierge
practice. He couldn't afford to keep his office open. Independent
doctors only got paid half what hospitals got paid for the same thing.
That's why so many practices have been gobbled up by hospitals. It's
not an accident.
>
>There are several groups of doctors that refuse insurance and offer you
>a more realistic cost but only accept cash/credit card. They team up
>with specific pharmacies and labs and some hospitals that work together.
> That has been going on since the mid 90's that I know of.

Yes, concierge medicine isn't anything new. The normal mode is that
an annual fee is charged (in the case above, $2400/person) and that
covered everything a PCP would get into. Of course it didn't cover
surgery (PCPs don't do surgery).

>Insurance introduces a middle man that is making a large sum of the
>money. Doctors, pay a lot for personnel to process insurance claims so
>that they actually get paid.

The government adds a *lot* more. The whole "coding" nightmare caused
more doctors to sell out.

>So basically medical costs are expensive BECAUSE they have to make up
>for the discounts that they have to give to the insurance company.
>Typically the insurance company gets a discount from the cost that a
>medical provider charges. Because most people have insurance the
>medical provider has to increase what they charge to the uninsured to be
>able get what they need, to stay in business, from the insurance company.

I have some numbers for that. It's >50%. Government also imposes
rules that make insurance (as opposed to medicine) far more expensive,
like insurance across state lines.

>My insurance provider gives me a break down of all medical costs and
>drug costs. They show what they were billed and they show what they
>actually paid. Most often the medical provider gets about 30~40% of
>what they billed the insurance company for.

That's about right.

>The groups of doctors I mentioned above don't accept insurance because
>they charge their cash/credit card customers the amount that they would
>have been paid by the insurance company. And in turn they don't need
>staff to process insurance claims.
>
>Many years ago most people could afford medical costs because insurance
>companies were not involved. And eventually the company you worked for
>provided free medical insurance and that all went out the door.

Again, the government had its fingers in that too.

There's Medicare/Medicaid with their rules about things like
kick-backs. With my employer-sponsored insurance one of my drugs'
street price is about $450/month (a *very* common drug). My cost,
through my employer is something like $40 (I can't remember exactly).
The drug company kicks back, to me, everything the insurance company
doesn't pay, except $10. The bottom line is that when I go to the
drug store, I pay $10. When I go on Medicare, that kickback is
illegal. There is a whole basket of similar rules that just cost up
money.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 02:53:09 -0400, Michael Trew <mt999999@ymail.com>
wrote:

>On 7/14/2021 12:45 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 11:32:28 -0400, Michael Trew<mt999999@ymail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/13/2021 6:19 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 7/13/2021 1:02 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>>>> On 7/11/2021 4:22 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>>> Again, we come back to your incredible lack of self-awareness. ...and
>>>>>> your lying, for that matter. More evidence of your leftism.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Did you mean to reply to me? I don't advertise a political lean, but
>>>>> if I did, it would NOT be left..
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> LOL, Best to lean right vs. WRONG.
>>>
>>> In the post-trump era, after the capitol insanity, I'd say I'm pretty
>>> well firmly in the center. Both sides are nothing but greed -- it's all
>>> about money and power. I have no political loyalty -- either party is
>>> just moving further and further extreme. No one is for the people.
>>
>>
>> By stating the above, you're CLEARLY not in the center. The Capitol
>> insanity was a minor blip compared to what happened the whole year,
>> all over the country, in the "mostly peaceful demonstrations".
>> Billions of dollars in damage and thousands (mostly minority)
>> businesses were burned to the ground and many killed. In the capitol
>> riot, only one was killed, one of the "rioters", shot in the back.
>
>
>OK, more of a back story... I always leaned conservative, and I voted
>for Trump. I have ZERO tolerance for the insane left push back after
>the George Floyd thing was blown WAY out of proportion. I would have
>taken care of those rioters very quickly after they started looting and
>burning cities down... pop, pop, pop...

OK, but that's where we were and that's where we *ARE*. If you accept
that, and you are, you are left.

>Now then, after how Trump has reacted since losing the election, the
>whole of the Republican party with him, I rethinking my political
>beliefs.

Reacted? Mean twitter posts?

>I never had a tolerance for Democrats. Then, after seeing how
>Republicans can just "oust" Liz Cheney, amongst other things...

Exactly what's wrong with "ousting" Liz?

>I've
>realized that neither side is any better than the other, they are all
>crooks and thieves. Political parts are a cancer to our country, and
>should be abolished.

There is no middle in this one.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 02:55:59 -0400, Michael Trew <mt999999@ymail.com>
wrote:

>On 7/14/2021 9:54 PM, Bill wrote:
>> On 7/14/2021 11:32 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>> On 7/13/2021 6:19 PM, Leon wrote:
>>
>>>> LOL, Best to lean right vs. WRONG.
>>>
>>> In the post-trump era, after the capitol insanity, I'd say I'm pretty
>>> well firmly in the center. Both sides are nothing but greed -- it's
>>> all about money and power. I have no political loyalty -- either
>>> party is just moving further and further extreme. No one is for the
>>> people.
>>
>> Yes, not enough team spirit. I guess what you wrote is another of way of
>> expressing my thought that "neither party consists entirely of saints!"
>> Many of the genuinely rich don't pay their fair share of taxes and
>> surely there are people drawing more unemployment benefits than they
>> should. To be fair, not everyone starts from the same place in life, or
>> attends schools of the same quality. There were 3 high schools in my
>> hometown, and they reflected 3 socio-economic levels and 3 levels of
>> property taxes. Even in the 2nd one, which I attended, there were kids
>> boasting about family membership in the "yacht club". I was content to
>> come to school wearing clothes which I mostly paid for with my part time
>> job! : ) And I bet I learned to weld better and take care of my car
>> better than any of those "yacht club" kids, to say nothing of developing
>> some interest and knowledge about woodworking! : )
>
>
>My high school was in a very small town - only one school. We were all
>poor :)
>
>Yes, I'd agree with you about "saints". I'll take it a step further
>though -- I think that political parties are a menace, and should be
>done away with. Vote people in based on their beliefs... they shouldn't
>have to sell their soul and morals to one of the big two parties...
>least they be silenced by their party after stepping out of line.

So you're against free speech and assembly, too. OK, you're going
further and further left.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 04:08:37 -0400, Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:

>On 7/15/2021 2:55 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
>> On 7/14/2021 9:54 PM, Bill wrote:
>
>> My high school was in a very small town - only one school.  We were all
>> poor :)
>>
>> Yes, I'd agree with you about "saints".  I'll take it a step further
>> though -- I think that political parties are a menace, and should be
>> done away with.  Vote people in based on their beliefs... they shouldn't
>> have to sell their soul and morals to one of the big two parties...
>> least they be silenced by their party after stepping out of line.
>
>Do away with lobbyists and "payola" and get rid of the marketplace upon
>which politicians can sell their souls, and maybe that will help. I
>merely described a strategy to help to solve the problem that some of us
>have observed.

More free speech, gone.
>
>There has been a lot of effort to give corporations the same rights of
>people, except corporations don't go to jail. For instance, if a
>corporation pollutes a river, they may pay a fine, but they basically
>may get away with it. If an individual (as recklessly) caused the same
>"damage", they would be in jail. One can think of numerous examples like
>this, with some involving the mistreatment of people as well.

Their "pesonhood" is a legal fiction. The people *owning* the
corporations are not.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 10:13:10 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 7/15/2021 9:19 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>> On 7/14/2021 1:33 PM, Markem618 wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 13:24:51 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>
>>>>
>>>> You have to look at what the ACA has done.
>>>>
>>>> More people with health care insurance, that is good.
>>>
>>> Good if you can get in to actually see a doctor. I have heard that many
>>> doctors simply do not accept insurance.
>>
>> I haven't heard that, nor have I ever experienced it.
>>
>
>
>My doctor considered not taking me as a patient unless I paid cash. My
>father was already a patient so he made an exception.
>
>There are several groups of doctors that refuse insurance and offer you
>a more realistic cost but only accept cash/credit card. They team up
>with specific pharmacies and labs and some hospitals that work together.
> That has been going on since the mid 90's that I know of.
>
>Insurance introduces a middle man that is making a large sum of the
>money. Doctors, pay a lot for personnel to process insurance claims so
>that they actually get paid.
>
>So basically medical costs are expensive BECAUSE they have to make up
>for the discounts that they have to give to the insurance company.
>Typically the insurance company gets a discount from the cost that a
>medical provider charges. Because most people have insurance the
>medical provider has to increase what they charge to the uninsured to be
>able get what they need, to stay in business, from the insurance company.
>
>My insurance provider gives me a break down of all medical costs and
>drug costs. They show what they were billed and they show what they
>actually paid. Most often the medical provider gets about 30~40% of
>what they billed the insurance company for.
>
>The groups of doctors I mentioned above don't accept insurance because
>they charge their cash/credit card customers the amount that they would
>have been paid by the insurance company. And in turn they don't need
>staff to process insurance claims.
>
>Many years ago most people could afford medical costs because insurance
>companies were not involved. And eventually the company you worked for
>provided free medical insurance and that all went out the door.
Good reason to get the insurance companies out of the look with a
"single payer system"

On 7/15/2021 3:41 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 10:13:10 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/15/2021 9:19 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>> On 7/14/2021 1:33 PM, Markem618 wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 13:24:51 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You have to look at what the ACA has done.
>>>>>
>>>>> More people with health care insurance, that is good.
>>>>
>>>> Good if you can get in to actually see a doctor. I have heard that many
>>>> doctors simply do not accept insurance.
>>>
>>> I haven't heard that, nor have I ever experienced it.
>>>
>>
>>
>> My doctor considered not taking me as a patient unless I paid cash. My
>> father was already a patient so he made an exception.
>>
>> There are several groups of doctors that refuse insurance and offer you
>> a more realistic cost but only accept cash/credit card. They team up
>> with specific pharmacies and labs and some hospitals that work together.
>> That has been going on since the mid 90's that I know of.
>>
>> Insurance introduces a middle man that is making a large sum of the
>> money. Doctors, pay a lot for personnel to process insurance claims so
>> that they actually get paid.
>>
>> So basically medical costs are expensive BECAUSE they have to make up
>> for the discounts that they have to give to the insurance company.
>> Typically the insurance company gets a discount from the cost that a
>> medical provider charges. Because most people have insurance the
>> medical provider has to increase what they charge to the uninsured to be
>> able get what they need, to stay in business, from the insurance company.
>>
>> My insurance provider gives me a break down of all medical costs and
>> drug costs. They show what they were billed and they show what they
>> actually paid. Most often the medical provider gets about 30~40% of
>> what they billed the insurance company for.
>>
>> The groups of doctors I mentioned above don't accept insurance because
>> they charge their cash/credit card customers the amount that they would
>> have been paid by the insurance company. And in turn they don't need
>> staff to process insurance claims.
>>
>> Many years ago most people could afford medical costs because insurance
>> companies were not involved. And eventually the company you worked for
>> provided free medical insurance and that all went out the door.
> Good reason to get the insurance companies out of the look with a
> "single payer system"
>

Precicely

On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 16:41:41 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>
wrote:

>On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 10:13:10 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>wrote:
>
>>On 7/15/2021 9:19 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>> On 7/14/2021 1:33 PM, Markem618 wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 13:24:51 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You have to look at what the ACA has done.
>>>>>
>>>>> More people with health care insurance, that is good.
>>>>
>>>> Good if you can get in to actually see a doctor. I have heard that many
>>>> doctors simply do not accept insurance.
>>>
>>> I haven't heard that, nor have I ever experienced it.
>>>
>>
>>
>>My doctor considered not taking me as a patient unless I paid cash. My
>>father was already a patient so he made an exception.
>>
>>There are several groups of doctors that refuse insurance and offer you
>>a more realistic cost but only accept cash/credit card. They team up
>>with specific pharmacies and labs and some hospitals that work together.
>> That has been going on since the mid 90's that I know of.
>>
>>Insurance introduces a middle man that is making a large sum of the
>>money. Doctors, pay a lot for personnel to process insurance claims so
>>that they actually get paid.
>>
>>So basically medical costs are expensive BECAUSE they have to make up
>>for the discounts that they have to give to the insurance company.
>>Typically the insurance company gets a discount from the cost that a
>>medical provider charges. Because most people have insurance the
>>medical provider has to increase what they charge to the uninsured to be
>>able get what they need, to stay in business, from the insurance company.
>>
>>My insurance provider gives me a break down of all medical costs and
>>drug costs. They show what they were billed and they show what they
>>actually paid. Most often the medical provider gets about 30~40% of
>>what they billed the insurance company for.
>>
>>The groups of doctors I mentioned above don't accept insurance because
>>they charge their cash/credit card customers the amount that they would
>>have been paid by the insurance company. And in turn they don't need
>>staff to process insurance claims.
>>
>>Many years ago most people could afford medical costs because insurance
>>companies were not involved. And eventually the company you worked for
>>provided free medical insurance and that all went out the door.
> Good reason to get the insurance companies out of the look with a
>"single payer system"

And the US government has done *such* a good job. Politicizing
healthcare. What a *dumb* idea. "You don't believe in CRT, no
surgery for you!"

On 7/15/2021 2:19 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:

>
>> I never had a tolerance for Democrats. Then, after seeing how
>> Republicans can just "oust" Liz Cheney, amongst other things...
>
> Exactly what's wrong with "ousting" Liz?

What is wrong with her having an opinion and stating it?

>
>> I've
>> realized that neither side is any better than the other, they are all
>> crooks and thieves. Political parts are a cancer to our country, and
>> should be abolished.
>
> There is no middle in this one.
>
No, there is not. I've been a registered Independent all my adult life.
Conservative leanings, but the party of Eisenhower has gone nuts.

On 7/15/2021 9:06 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 7/15/2021 2:19 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>
>>
>>> I never had a tolerance for Democrats.  Then, after seeing how
>>> Republicans can just "oust" Liz Cheney, amongst other things...
>>
>> Exactly what's wrong with "ousting" Liz?
>
> What is wrong with her having an opinion and stating it?
>
>
>>
>>> I've
>>> realized that neither side is any better than the other, they are all
>>> crooks and thieves.  Political parts are a cancer to our country, and
>>> should be abolished.
>>
>> There is no middle in this one.
>>
> No, there is not.  I've been a registered Independent all my adult life.
>  Conservative leanings, but the party of Eisenhower has gone nuts.
>

Interesting perspective. I think both parties have evolved to be
extreme. There is probably some game-theoretic explanation, like there
is for there being exactly 2 principle parties (the idea is that if you
have more than 2, say 3, then 2 of them will join forces to beat the third).

On 7/15/2021 11:27 PM, Bill wrote:
> On 7/15/2021 9:06 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 7/15/2021 2:19 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> I never had a tolerance for Democrats.  Then, after seeing how
>>>> Republicans can just "oust" Liz Cheney, amongst other things...
>>>
>>> Exactly what's wrong with "ousting" Liz?
>>
>> What is wrong with her having an opinion and stating it?
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> I've
>>>> realized that neither side is any better than the other, they are all
>>>> crooks and thieves.  Political parts are a cancer to our country, and
>>>> should be abolished.
>>>
>>> There is no middle in this one.
>>>
>> No, there is not.  I've been a registered Independent all my adult
>> life.   Conservative leanings, but the party of Eisenhower has gone nuts.
>>
>
> Interesting perspective. I think both parties have evolved to be
> extreme. There is probably some game-theoretic explanation, like there
> is for there being exactly 2 principle parties (the idea is that if you
> have more than 2, say 3, then 2 of them will join forces to beat the
> third).

What has gone wrong is a great lack of pride and duty in both parties.

BUT who can blame them, they are not accountable and are fixed for life
after being elected. Who cares if the country goes to hell in a hand
basket, we are exempt!

So to join the club, lets make it to where no one has to provide any
shred of proof that they are eligible to vote. In fact, let any one
that walks up to a voting machine vote, especially those that believe
that the government is going to hand out money for doing nothing.

Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca> writes:
>On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 10:13:10 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>wrote:
>
>>On 7/15/2021 9:19 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>> On 7/14/2021 1:33 PM, Markem618 wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 13:24:51 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You have to look at what the ACA has done.
>>>>>
>>>>> More people with health care insurance, that is good.
>>>>
>>>> Good if you can get in to actually see a doctor. I have heard that many
>>>> doctors simply do not accept insurance.
>>>
>>> I haven't heard that, nor have I ever experienced it.
>>>
>>
>>
>>My doctor considered not taking me as a patient unless I paid cash. My
>>father was already a patient so he made an exception.
>>
>>There are several groups of doctors that refuse insurance and offer you
>>a more realistic cost but only accept cash/credit card. They team up
>>with specific pharmacies and labs and some hospitals that work together.
>> That has been going on since the mid 90's that I know of.
>>
>>Insurance introduces a middle man that is making a large sum of the
>>money. Doctors, pay a lot for personnel to process insurance claims so
>>that they actually get paid.
>>
>>So basically medical costs are expensive BECAUSE they have to make up
>>for the discounts that they have to give to the insurance company.
>>Typically the insurance company gets a discount from the cost that a
>>medical provider charges. Because most people have insurance the
>>medical provider has to increase what they charge to the uninsured to be
>>able get what they need, to stay in business, from the insurance company.
>>
>>My insurance provider gives me a break down of all medical costs and
>>drug costs. They show what they were billed and they show what they
>>actually paid. Most often the medical provider gets about 30~40% of
>>what they billed the insurance company for.
>>
>>The groups of doctors I mentioned above don't accept insurance because
>>they charge their cash/credit card customers the amount that they would
>>have been paid by the insurance company. And in turn they don't need
>>staff to process insurance claims.
>>
>>Many years ago most people could afford medical costs because insurance
>>companies were not involved. And eventually the company you worked for
>>provided free medical insurance and that all went out the door.
> Good reason to get the insurance companies out of the look with a
>"single payer system"

Indeed. And "Many years ago" there was no laproscopic surgery, there
was no open heart surgery and vast numbers of diseases had no effective
treatment. Modern imaging techniques did not exist (from CAT/PET/MRI
scanning to ultransonic imaging).

And many years ago, those who could not afford it (and they were legion),
simply died.

Bill <nonegiven@att.net> writes:
>On 7/15/2021 9:06 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 7/15/2021 2:19 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> I never had a tolerance for Democrats.  Then, after seeing how
>>>> Republicans can just "oust" Liz Cheney, amongst other things...
>>>
>>> Exactly what's wrong with "ousting" Liz?
>>
>> What is wrong with her having an opinion and stating it?
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> I've
>>>> realized that neither side is any better than the other, they are all
>>>> crooks and thieves.  Political parts are a cancer to our country, and
>>>> should be abolished.
>>>
>>> There is no middle in this one.
>>>
>> No, there is not.  I've been a registered Independent all my adult life.
>>  Conservative leanings, but the party of Eisenhower has gone nuts.
>>
>
>Interesting perspective. I think both parties have evolved to be
>extreme. There is probably some game-theoretic explanation, like there
>is for there being exactly 2 principle parties (the idea is that if you
>have more than 2, say 3, then 2 of them will join forces to beat the third).

The latest presidential poll by historians was recently released.

There are only two modern republican presidents in the top 10
(DDE and RR). The next modern republican, GHWB, hits 21 (WJC is 19),
and Ford (28), Shrub (29) and Nixon (31). DJT is four from the
bottom (41).

On the other side you have JFK (8), Obama (10), Johnson (11),
Clinton (19) and Carter (26). I note that Carter, the traditional
whipping boy of foaming-at-the-mouth republicans (like KRW) beats
out all the non-top-10 republicans except for GHWB.

https://www.c-span.org/presidentsurvey2021/?page=overall

And personally, having voted through the 80's, RR is overrated IMO.

On 7/16/2021 12:27 AM, Bill wrote:
> On 7/15/2021 9:06 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 7/15/2021 2:19 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> I never had a tolerance for Democrats.  Then, after seeing how
>>>> Republicans can just "oust" Liz Cheney, amongst other things...
>>>
>>> Exactly what's wrong with "ousting" Liz?
>>
>> What is wrong with her having an opinion and stating it?
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> I've
>>>> realized that neither side is any better than the other, they are all
>>>> crooks and thieves.  Political parts are a cancer to our country, and
>>>> should be abolished.
>>>
>>> There is no middle in this one.
>>>
>> No, there is not.  I've been a registered Independent all my adult
>> life.   Conservative leanings, but the party of Eisenhower has gone nuts.
>>
>
> Interesting perspective. I think both parties have evolved to be
> extreme. There is probably some game-theoretic explanation, like there
> is for there being exactly 2 principle parties (the idea is that if you
> have more than 2, say 3, then 2 of them will join forces to beat the
> third).

A quick way to improve things it to get rid on any politician that made
the national news in the past six months. That would include Chuck and
Nancy, McConnell, Cruz, Graham, AOC and a few others.

Note that I said "improve" rather than fix. Not sure Congress is truly
fixable.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 21:06:32 -0400, Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:

>On 7/15/2021 2:19 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>
>>
>>> I never had a tolerance for Democrats. Then, after seeing how
>>> Republicans can just "oust" Liz Cheney, amongst other things...
>>
>> Exactly what's wrong with "ousting" Liz?
>
>What is wrong with her having an opinion and stating it?
>
>
>>
>>> I've
>>> realized that neither side is any better than the other, they are all
>>> crooks and thieves. Political parts are a cancer to our country, and
>>> should be abolished.
>>
>> There is no middle in this one.
>>
>No, there is not. I've been a registered Independent all my adult life.
> Conservative leanings, but the party of Eisenhower has gone nuts.

Yeah, and the party of AOC is perfectly sane. That tells us all we
need to know about you!

On Fri, 16 Jul 2021 00:27:42 -0400, Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:

>On 7/15/2021 9:06 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 7/15/2021 2:19 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> I never had a tolerance for Democrats.  Then, after seeing how
>>>> Republicans can just "oust" Liz Cheney, amongst other things...
>>>
>>> Exactly what's wrong with "ousting" Liz?
>>
>> What is wrong with her having an opinion and stating it?
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> I've
>>>> realized that neither side is any better than the other, they are all
>>>> crooks and thieves.  Political parts are a cancer to our country, and
>>>> should be abolished.
>>>
>>> There is no middle in this one.
>>>
>> No, there is not.  I've been a registered Independent all my adult life.
>>  Conservative leanings, but the party of Eisenhower has gone nuts.
>>
>
>Interesting perspective. I think both parties have evolved to be
>extreme. There is probably some game-theoretic explanation, like there
>is for there being exactly 2 principle parties (the idea is that if you
>have more than 2, say 3, then 2 of them will join forces to beat the third).

The extreme of saving personal rights and
the extreme of the collective - Maoism.