On Sunday, December 12, 2021 at 1:17:56 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 2:28:02 PM UTC-8, Elizabeth A wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 4:26:20 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:
>
> > > It occurs to me I have limited my answer to male-line Warren descendants of
> > > the family, but colonial New England immigrant Robert Abell descends from
> > > the eventual heiress of the senior line, Margaret Wareyn (the daughter of the
> > > above John), via Mainwaring of Ightfield, and there may be other Mainwaring
> > > of Ightfield immigrant descendants not immediately coming to mind.
> >
> > Rev. Peter Bulkeley and his niece Olive (Welby) Farwell come to mind for me.
> On this Bulkeley descent, I am unfamiliar with its historiography, but I have to say what I have found on a quick tool through the usual suspects leaves me a little ambivalent. Maybe there is more recent work on the connection than I have found.
>
> Visitation of Shropshire, pedigree 1 (p 101):
> 1. Thomas Charleton . . .
> 2. Rob'tus Charleton de Apeley ob. 10 E 4 = Maria filia Rob'ti Corbet de Morton Ar.
> 3. Richard Charleton de Apeley ob. 13 H 8 = Anna filia Will'i Manwaring in co. Salop
> 4. William Charleton . . .
>
> Visitation of Shropshire, pedigree 2 (p 108-9)
> 1. Thomas Knightley als. Charleton . . .
> 2. Robert Charleton of Apley = Anne da to Wm Manwaringe of Ightfeeld
> 3. Rich. Charleton of Apley = Alice da to Robt Corbett of Morton Esq
> . . .
> 4. William Charleton
>
> Jacobus recognized the conflict, and selected the first as the more reliable, but the only rationale given related to where the two pedigrees linked to the Lords Charleton, not on this part of the pedigree. Alice Maude Peel in an article in Trans Shropshire Arch Hist Soc gave the following:
>
> 1. Thomas Charlton . . .
> 2. Robert Charlton =1 Alice Brown =2 Elizabeth Mainwaring dau WIlliam Mainwaring of Ightfield in 1476
> 3a. Richard Charlton d.s.p.
> 3b. William Charlton
>
> Richardson follows Jacobus for the pedigree itself but appears to draw the name Elizabeth for the Mainwaring daughter from the conflicting pedigree of Peel without any explanation for this mix and match approach. (He does cite a TAG article I don't have access to for the Robert = Mary Corbet match.)
>
> Basically, this is a mess. with the only primary sources being late-date pedigrees that conflict (unles there is something in that TAG article). Is anyone aware of further primary sources being brought to bear on this question?
>
> (Perhaps relevant, but not very informative - TNA C 241/268/24 has Richard Corbet and Richard Charleton as two of the debtors, 1495.)
>
> taf
Unfortunately, it's been some time since I've done Shropshire research, and that wasn't on the Charlton or Mainwaring families, so I'm not in a position to readily, nor will I have the time to look into it for a little while. I do know that George Morris' MS contains many references to many primary sources, including in obscure sources like private collections. The information in Morris' pedigrees can be found, sometimes with references to primary sources Morris cited, in the database "Wales. Welsh Medieval Database Primarily Nobility and Gentry lines. Date range: 100s-1900s" on familysearch.org, if you go to search->genealogies->Community Trees. Unfortunately, Morris' manuscript appears to be on microfilm reels not digitized yet by FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/215993?availability=Family%20History%20Library)

On Sunday, December 12, 2021 at 10:17:56 AM UTC-8, taf wrote:
> Basically, this is a mess. with the only primary sources being late-date pedigrees
> that conflict (unles there is something in that TAG article). Is anyone aware of
> further primary sources being brought to bear on this question?

Following up on this , a participant sent me the TAG article off-list, and it has nothing relevant to the Corbet/Mainwaring marriages. A second article he also supplied gives the line as per Jacobus, citing the visitation, which adds nothing of value.

The marriage of Mary Corbet to Robert Charlton also appears in the pedigree or Corbet in the Shropshire visitation. If this is independent (i.e. not just added to one of the manuscript copies because the marriage is found in the Charlton pedigree) this would further support the Charlton pedigree showing the marriage.

Some chronology:
Both Thomas Knightley alias Charleton and his wife Elizabeth were born in or about 1394. They were already married by 1417 (and easily could have been married a half-decade earlier). That gives us a ballpark for the birthdate for heir Robert. (I have seen it reported that he was 30 in 1460, which is apparently one of those '30 and more' ages from his father's ipm, which can't be taken as accurate but simply used to represent middle age.)

Richard Charleton was apparently acting as an adult in 1472. He had arranged a marriage for a daughter in 1500 and for a son in 1507.

Margaret/Margery Wareyn's prior husband died 1430, and she presumably married William Mainwaring of Ightfield within a few years. Margaret was born in 1401, so that puts the birth of any daughter most likely in the 1433/1445 range. Online pedigrees make Elizabeth/Ann Mainwaring b. 1460, which is not possible for a daughter of a woman born 1401.

taf

On Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 8:13:37 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> A quarta-feira, 8 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 12:59:37 UTC, sar...@yahoo.com escreveu:
> > On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 5:01:35 AM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > > A quarta-feira, 8 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 06:18:29 UTC, taf escreveu:
> > > > On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 5:24:35 PM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> >
> > > What about the Elizabeth Crow thing?
> > There is an Elizabeth Crow who married William Warren and they did have a child named Abraham who could be the subject of my inquiry. In William's will dated Nov 1689 he orders that "Abraham be bound until he is 21 years of age, & that it be done with their Mother's Consent." Since my Abraham Warren was born in 1681, this could be him. I was just hoping for more solid evidence.
> https://www.geni.com/people/Elizabeth-Warren/6000000001589670176 says
> "The idea that her maiden name was Crow, or that she was the widow Crow, was put to rest in the January 1971 issue of The American Genealogist (Vol. 47, No.1, page 17). It is quite clear that she was Elizabeth Danson."

I know this is a REALLY late entry, but I was just able to obtain a copy of this TAG article. It is discussing a totally different John Warren and wife Elizabeth. The Article lists John Warren as an early resident of Exeter, New Hampshire who removed to Boston in 1668 where he died in 1677.

The John William Warren (in his will he writes his name J William Warren) who I have as being the spouse of Elizabeth Crow was born in Boston abt 1623 and moved to Farmington, Hartford, Connecticut by 1656 where he died in Nov 1689. This John William Warren was married twice; first to an unknown woman with whom he had three children: Thomas, William and John and secondly to Elizabeth Crow (daughter of John Crow and Elizabeth Goodwin) with whom he had an additional four children: Abraham, Mary, Elizabeth, and Mehitable. Children from both marriages were included in his will with the youngest not being named except for Abraham who was to be bound out until the age of 21.

On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 10:59:56 AM UTC-7, sar...@yahoo.com wrote:

> The John William Warren (in his will he writes his name J William Warren) who
> I have as being the spouse of Elizabeth Crow was born in Boston abt 1623

Just as an aside, Boston didn't even exist in 1623. If this really is when he was born, it was either in Plymouth Colony (less likely) or in England before his parents' emigration (more likely).

taf

On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 5:45:57 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:
> On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 10:59:56 AM UTC-7, sar...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > The John William Warren (in his will he writes his name J William Warren) who
> > I have as being the spouse of Elizabeth Crow was born in Boston abt 1623
> Just as an aside, Boston didn't even exist in 1623. If this really is when he was born, it was either in Plymouth Colony (less likely) or in England before his parents' emigration (more likely).
>
> taf

You're absolutely right; Boston became Boston in 1630...While I have several secondary sources listing his year of birth as 1623, I have only one, the U.S. and International Marriage Records, 1560-1900, that lists his place of birth as Massachusetts, USA. I really have nothing outlining his childhood years, so he very well could have been born in England (even though I have not been able to locate an immigration record for him). This really throws a wrench into the works as he again joins the multitude of English Warren immigrants who defy research...

~Gail

On Sat, 11 Jun 2022 06:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Gail Peterson
<saru308@yahoo.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

>On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 5:45:57 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:
>> On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 10:59:56 AM UTC-7, sar...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>> > The John William Warren (in his will he writes his name J William Warren) who
>> > I have as being the spouse of Elizabeth Crow was born in Boston abt 1623
>> Just as an aside, Boston didn't even exist in 1623. If this really is when he was born, it was either in Plymouth Colony (less likely) or in England before his parents' emigration (more likely).
>>
>> taf
>
>You're absolutely right; Boston became Boston in 1630...While I have several secondary sources listing his year of birth as 1623, I have only one, the U.S. and International Marriage Records, 1560-1900, that lists his place of birth as Massachusetts, USA. I really have nothing outlining his childhood years, so he very well could
have been born in England (even though I have not been able to locate an immigration record for him). This really throws a wrench into the works as he again joins the multitude of English Warren immigrants who defy research...

I don't know about the exact meaning of "warren", but there is often
some parallel history between French and Englaish with the pair
G and W. So we have:

guerre/war
quand/when
quoi/what
garant/warrant (but garantie/guarantee)
Gauthier/Walter
Guillaume/William

So Warren would be paired to Guérin, and there are many unrelated
families of that name in New France. I would suspect the origin is
some given name so many unrelated Warren too (while I don't know
any occurence of Guérin as given name nor what the name could mean).

Denis

--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 7:57:09 AM UTC-7, Denis Beauregard wrote:
> So Warren would be paired to Guérin, and there are many unrelated
> families of that name in New France. I would suspect the origin is
> some given name so many unrelated Warren too (while I don't know
> any occurence of Guérin as given name nor what the name could mean).

I think the Anglo-Norman cognate of this French name was Warin, as seen in the patronymic Fitz Warin. This could be the source of some Warrens, but some do appear to be derivative of the toponymic de Warenne, from Varenne in Normandy.

taf

the w0rd
Warden
shuld be a backgrund f sme f these Warren cases.

--------------------------------
Denis Beauregard:
> On Sat, 11 Jun 2022 06:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Gail Peterson
> <sar...@yahoo.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
> >On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 5:45:57 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:
> >> On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 10:59:56 AM UTC-7, sar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>
> >> > The John William Warren (in his will he writes his name J William Warren) who
> >> > I have as being the spouse of Elizabeth Crow was born in Boston abt 1623
> >> Just as an aside, Boston didn't even exist in 1623. If this really is when he was born, it was either in Plymouth Colony (less likely) or in England before his parents' emigration (more likely).
> >>
> >> taf
> >
> >You're absolutely right; Boston became Boston in 1630...While I have several secondary sources listing his year of birth as 1623, I have only one, the U.S. and International Marriage Records, 1560-1900, that lists his place of birth as Massachusetts, USA. I really have nothing outlining his childhood years, so he very well could
> have been born in England (even though I have not been able to locate an immigration record for him). This really throws a wrench into the works as he again joins the multitude of English Warren immigrants who defy research....
> I don't know about the exact meaning of "warren", but there is often
> some parallel history between French and Englaish with the pair
> G and W. So we have:
>
> guerre/war
> quand/when
> quoi/what
> garant/warrant (but garantie/guarantee)
> Gauthier/Walter
> Guillaume/William
>
> So Warren would be paired to Guérin, and there are many unrelated
> families of that name in New France. I would suspect the origin is
> some given name so many unrelated Warren too (while I don't know
> any occurence of Guérin as given name nor what the name could mean).
>
>
> Denis
>
> --
> Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
> Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
> French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
> Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790