On Friday, August 27, 2021 at 7:18:16 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 15:40:26 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
> wrote:
>
> >Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
> >>On 8/27/2021 8:53 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
> >>>> On 8/26/2021 1:40 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>>> Interesting observation. Maybe we were just poor, or extremely
> >>>>>> intelligent. Rich people today could not poor piss out of a boot with
> >>>>>> out an assistant.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I would expect rich people to be smart enough not to piss in their
> >>>>> boots.
> >>>>
> >>>> One would expect! My boss 25 years ago, owner of the company I was a GM
> >>>> for, was a few months younger than me. AND a college graduate I might add.
> >>>
> >>> Generalizing from a single example is fraught. The distribution of
> >>> intelligence (and pretty much everything else) falls along a bell
> >>> curve.
> >>
> >>I can give you many examples but this is the one that a middle school
> >
> >A very intelligent person can have trouble with math. That doesn't make
> >them not intelligent, just not perfect. Not all college degrees require
> >mathematical skills.
> I guess one can be brilliant and illiterate, too. That's what Leon was
> talking about. Not calculus.
> >
> >Anecdotal evidence is isn't. (evidence, that is).
> >
> >Personally, I know quite a few people in the 1%, including many scientists,
> >venture capitalists and CEOs. They're all quite intelligent and don't ever
> >piss in their boots (nor would they have any difficulty doing so
> >were it necessary; as well as subsequently pouring it out).
> >
> >As I noted, it's a bell curve; you'll find rich folks on either end,
> >although the lower end is generally inherited wealth, not self-made.
> At the IQ 80 end, probably not. But 120 is the other sigma. I'm sure
> there are many between. But, again, the distribution "intelligence"
> is, by definition, a bell curve. It's the way it's "measured".
> >
> >>> A net worth of ten million puts one in the soi distant 1%.
> >>>
> >>Actually a millionaire in 1960 would need ten million to have the same
> >>buying power. Net worth is the addition of assets, not buying power.
> >
> >assets and buying power (which leverages assets) aren't as different
> >as you think.
> >
> >My point was that the term 'millionaire' doesn't have the same
> >cachet today as it had when you were growing up, particularly given
> >current real-estate valuations - although as you correctly noted,
> >those assets aren't liquid, they can be leveraged.
> Only if there is some sort on "income" that will pay the note.

Not if you use a reverse mortgage.

> One my
> former managers had a net worth that put him into your "distant 1%"
> and retired early. He couldn't get a car loan. The banks just said
> "pay cash". "If you can't use your money, why should we take the risk
> with ours?"

What was his "net worth" made up of? Totally illiquid assets? Nothing
that could have been put up as collateral?

A one percenter that can't get a car loan? I sure would like to hear the
details behind that. (I sure ain't no one percenter, but with a 825 credit
score, they throw credit card applications at me as I walk down the
street.)

On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 21:11:03 -0400, hubops@ccanoemail.ca wrote:

>
>>
>> One my former managers had a net worth that put him into your "distant 1%"
>>and retired early. He couldn't get a car loan. The banks just said
>>"pay cash". "If you can't use your money, why should we take the risk
>>with ours?"
>
>
>Seriously ?

Seriously. It's not like his assets were tied up, either. It was
pretty much liquid (mostly stocks).

> ... that does not sound like any bank that I have ever known !
>.. not that a car loan is a good idea - except for the bank.
> I have heard of cases where a person didn't have any kind
>of "credit rating" that the bank could check -
>because they never had any credit cards or debt of any kind.

"No-low" credit. There are ways around "no", these days.

> .. I think my oldest brother might fit-the-bill.

It's not rare but not advised either.

Credit scores are crazy things. I have a high score (830+) but put a
big bunch on my cards one month, a vacation, new wedding for SWMBO,
jointer (the OT part ;-), and I don't remember what all else. It
totaled about 10% of my availability but I always pay the cards off
every month. It still hit the numbers about 20pts., not that
mattered. I can see how it could be a big deal for many, though.

On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 22:50:37 -0400, ads wrote:

>On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 19:04:16 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 13:53:14 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>>On 8/26/2021 1:40 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Interesting observation. Maybe we were just poor, or extremely
>>>>>> intelligent. Rich people today could not poor piss out of a boot with
>>>>>> out an assistant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I would expect rich people to be smart enough not to piss in their
>>>>> boots.
>>>>
>>>>One would expect! My boss 25 years ago, owner of the company I was a GM
>>>>for, was a few months younger than me. AND a college graduate I might add.
>>>
>>>Generalizing from a single example is fraught. The distribution of
>>>intelligence (and pretty much everything else) falls along a bell
>>>curve.
>>
>>By definition.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What do you consider rich?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>A net worth of at least a couple million dollars. And at least half of
>>>>that being liquid.
>>>
>>>A millionaire in 1960 would need ten million dollars today to have
>>>the same net worth.
>>
>>We just this discussion here. One may be able to retire comfortably on
>>a megabuck AND Social Security, as long as you don't live too long.
>>Retire before 65, and you'd better make that two-megabux.
>>
>>As you point out, $1M ain't what it used to be.
>>>
>>>A net worth of ten million puts one in the soi distant 1%
>
>Didn't have the megabuck when I retired 20+ years ago, but I was smart
>enough to take advantage of job offers after I retired - I think I've
>now retired 4 times ;-)

Well, sure. I was "retired" 15 years ago but still work. Working isn't
retired.
>
>Being frugal (OK, cheap) and of the DIY persuasion also helps. Had an
>HVAC semi-emergency the other night - the condensate pump not moving
>the water and there's water in the catch pan. The pump was
>semi-permanently installed (PVC drain pipe assembled in place -
>including the entry to the pump's reservoir) so you must cut the pipe
>to get the pump out. First some old towels to cath the drips, then
>drill a small hole in the pipe just above where it enters the pump. No
>water from that hole so they blockage is in the pump's reservoir of
>it's above the hole I drilled. Oscillating saw to take the pipe off
>at the top of the pump housing, then a funnel and pircher to run water
>through the pump and see what's under the murky water. Two quarts
>later, the bottom of the pump's reservoir can be seen and the pump
>works fine. Now the drain pipe is too short to enter the pump's
>housing but that's OK as there's space for a piece of 2x4 to go under
>the pump and raise it just high enough to capture the pipe. Three
>days later it's still working fine - the original installation had the
>end of the pipe too close to the bottom of the pump's reservoir and
>the bits of debris (fuzz, lint, whatever) that wash down from the
>evaporator coil had accumulated deeply enough to block the drain pipe.
>That pipe now has more than an inch of clearance from the bottom of
>the pump's reservoir so I shouldn't have this problem again. Other
>than my time, zero cost for an after hours HVAC repair. What's the
>going rate for that? Enough to pay for the cordless drill and
>oscillating saw?

It's worth it! Plumbing and I don't get along at all. Whatever I
touch, breaks.

On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 20:14:39 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
<teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote:

>On Friday, August 27, 2021 at 7:18:16 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 15:40:26 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>> >>On 8/27/2021 8:53 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> >>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>> >>>> On 8/26/2021 1:40 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>>> Interesting observation. Maybe we were just poor, or extremely
>> >>>>>> intelligent. Rich people today could not poor piss out of a boot with
>> >>>>>> out an assistant.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I would expect rich people to be smart enough not to piss in their
>> >>>>> boots.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> One would expect! My boss 25 years ago, owner of the company I was a GM
>> >>>> for, was a few months younger than me. AND a college graduate I might add.
>> >>>
>> >>> Generalizing from a single example is fraught. The distribution of
>> >>> intelligence (and pretty much everything else) falls along a bell
>> >>> curve.
>> >>
>> >>I can give you many examples but this is the one that a middle school
>> >
>> >A very intelligent person can have trouble with math. That doesn't make
>> >them not intelligent, just not perfect. Not all college degrees require
>> >mathematical skills.
>> I guess one can be brilliant and illiterate, too. That's what Leon was
>> talking about. Not calculus.
>> >
>> >Anecdotal evidence is isn't. (evidence, that is).
>> >
>> >Personally, I know quite a few people in the 1%, including many scientists,
>> >venture capitalists and CEOs. They're all quite intelligent and don't ever
>> >piss in their boots (nor would they have any difficulty doing so
>> >were it necessary; as well as subsequently pouring it out).
>> >
>> >As I noted, it's a bell curve; you'll find rich folks on either end,
>> >although the lower end is generally inherited wealth, not self-made.
>> At the IQ 80 end, probably not. But 120 is the other sigma. I'm sure
>> there are many between. But, again, the distribution "intelligence"
>> is, by definition, a bell curve. It's the way it's "measured".
>> >
>> >>> A net worth of ten million puts one in the soi distant 1%.
>> >>>
>> >>Actually a millionaire in 1960 would need ten million to have the same
>> >>buying power. Net worth is the addition of assets, not buying power.
>> >
>> >assets and buying power (which leverages assets) aren't as different
>> >as you think.
>> >
>> >My point was that the term 'millionaire' doesn't have the same
>> >cachet today as it had when you were growing up, particularly given
>> >current real-estate valuations - although as you correctly noted,
>> >those assets aren't liquid, they can be leveraged.
>> Only if there is some sort on "income" that will pay the note.
>
>Not if you use a reverse mortgage.

A 1%er isn't likely to go for a reverse mortgage. There is a place for
them but it's not a 1%er.
>
>> One my
>> former managers had a net worth that put him into your "distant 1%"
>> and retired early. He couldn't get a car loan. The banks just said
>> "pay cash". "If you can't use your money, why should we take the risk
>> with ours?"
>
>What was his "net worth" made up of? Totally illiquid assets? Nothing
>that could have been put up as collateral?

Almost all securities. He was a quite successful
"player", which is why he wanted the loan in the first place.
>
>A one percenter that can't get a car loan? I sure would like to hear the
>details behind that. (I sure ain't no one percenter, but with a 825 credit
>score, they throw credit card applications at me as I walk down the
>street.)

You have income, no?

I hear you. When we bought my '13 F150 (now in the great pick-a-part
in the sky) and my wife's '14 Mustang, a week apart, the dealer told
us not to worry about financing. "With your credit score you could buy
the whole damned lot."

We're now getting all sorts of solicitations for savings/checking
accounts "paying twice the average interest". Wow! You man you're
going to pay 1%?

On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 23:21:58 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote:

>On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 22:50:37 -0400, ads wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 19:04:16 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 13:53:14 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>>>On 8/26/2021 1:40 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> Interesting observation. Maybe we were just poor, or extremely
>>>>>>> intelligent. Rich people today could not poor piss out of a boot with
>>>>>>> out an assistant.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would expect rich people to be smart enough not to piss in their
>>>>>> boots.
>>>>>
>>>>>One would expect! My boss 25 years ago, owner of the company I was a GM
>>>>>for, was a few months younger than me. AND a college graduate I might add.
>>>>
>>>>Generalizing from a single example is fraught. The distribution of
>>>>intelligence (and pretty much everything else) falls along a bell
>>>>curve.
>>>
>>>By definition.
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What do you consider rich?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>A net worth of at least a couple million dollars. And at least half of
>>>>>that being liquid.
>>>>
>>>>A millionaire in 1960 would need ten million dollars today to have
>>>>the same net worth.
>>>
>>>We just this discussion here. One may be able to retire comfortably on
>>>a megabuck AND Social Security, as long as you don't live too long.
>>>Retire before 65, and you'd better make that two-megabux.
>>>
>>>As you point out, $1M ain't what it used to be.
>>>>
>>>>A net worth of ten million puts one in the soi distant 1%
>>
>>Didn't have the megabuck when I retired 20+ years ago, but I was smart
>>enough to take advantage of job offers after I retired - I think I've
>>now retired 4 times ;-)
>
>Well, sure. I was "retired" 15 years ago but still work. Working isn't
>retired.
>>
>>Being frugal (OK, cheap) and of the DIY persuasion also helps. Had an
>>HVAC semi-emergency the other night - the condensate pump not moving
>>the water and there's water in the catch pan. The pump was
>>semi-permanently installed (PVC drain pipe assembled in place -
>>including the entry to the pump's reservoir) so you must cut the pipe
>>to get the pump out. First some old towels to cath the drips, then
>>drill a small hole in the pipe just above where it enters the pump. No
>>water from that hole so they blockage is in the pump's reservoir of
>>it's above the hole I drilled. Oscillating saw to take the pipe off
>>at the top of the pump housing, then a funnel and pircher to run water
>>through the pump and see what's under the murky water. Two quarts
>>later, the bottom of the pump's reservoir can be seen and the pump
>>works fine. Now the drain pipe is too short to enter the pump's
>>housing but that's OK as there's space for a piece of 2x4 to go under
>>the pump and raise it just high enough to capture the pipe. Three
>>days later it's still working fine - the original installation had the
>>end of the pipe too close to the bottom of the pump's reservoir and
>>the bits of debris (fuzz, lint, whatever) that wash down from the
>>evaporator coil had accumulated deeply enough to block the drain pipe.
>>That pipe now has more than an inch of clearance from the bottom of
>>the pump's reservoir so I shouldn't have this problem again. Other
>>than my time, zero cost for an after hours HVAC repair. What's the
>>going rate for that? Enough to pay for the cordless drill and
>>oscillating saw?
>
>It's worth it! Plumbing and I don't get along at all. Whatever I
>touch, breaks.

I have no problem with soldered copper or glued PVC. Threaded plastic
compression connections (P-trap and similar) just don't like me :-(

On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 05:41:01 -0400, ads wrote:

>On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 23:21:58 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 22:50:37 -0400, ads wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 19:04:16 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 13:53:14 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>>>>On 8/26/2021 1:40 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Interesting observation. Maybe we were just poor, or extremely
>>>>>>>> intelligent. Rich people today could not poor piss out of a boot with
>>>>>>>> out an assistant.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would expect rich people to be smart enough not to piss in their
>>>>>>> boots.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>One would expect! My boss 25 years ago, owner of the company I was a GM
>>>>>>for, was a few months younger than me. AND a college graduate I might add.
>>>>>
>>>>>Generalizing from a single example is fraught. The distribution of
>>>>>intelligence (and pretty much everything else) falls along a bell
>>>>>curve.
>>>>
>>>>By definition.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What do you consider rich?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>A net worth of at least a couple million dollars. And at least half of
>>>>>>that being liquid.
>>>>>
>>>>>A millionaire in 1960 would need ten million dollars today to have
>>>>>the same net worth.
>>>>
>>>>We just this discussion here. One may be able to retire comfortably on
>>>>a megabuck AND Social Security, as long as you don't live too long.
>>>>Retire before 65, and you'd better make that two-megabux.
>>>>
>>>>As you point out, $1M ain't what it used to be.
>>>>>
>>>>>A net worth of ten million puts one in the soi distant 1%
>>>
>>>Didn't have the megabuck when I retired 20+ years ago, but I was smart
>>>enough to take advantage of job offers after I retired - I think I've
>>>now retired 4 times ;-)
>>
>>Well, sure. I was "retired" 15 years ago but still work. Working isn't
>>retired.
>>>
>>>Being frugal (OK, cheap) and of the DIY persuasion also helps. Had an
>>>HVAC semi-emergency the other night - the condensate pump not moving
>>>the water and there's water in the catch pan. The pump was
>>>semi-permanently installed (PVC drain pipe assembled in place -
>>>including the entry to the pump's reservoir) so you must cut the pipe
>>>to get the pump out. First some old towels to cath the drips, then
>>>drill a small hole in the pipe just above where it enters the pump. No
>>>water from that hole so they blockage is in the pump's reservoir of
>>>it's above the hole I drilled. Oscillating saw to take the pipe off
>>>at the top of the pump housing, then a funnel and pircher to run water
>>>through the pump and see what's under the murky water. Two quarts
>>>later, the bottom of the pump's reservoir can be seen and the pump
>>>works fine. Now the drain pipe is too short to enter the pump's
>>>housing but that's OK as there's space for a piece of 2x4 to go under
>>>the pump and raise it just high enough to capture the pipe. Three
>>>days later it's still working fine - the original installation had the
>>>end of the pipe too close to the bottom of the pump's reservoir and
>>>the bits of debris (fuzz, lint, whatever) that wash down from the
>>>evaporator coil had accumulated deeply enough to block the drain pipe.
>>>That pipe now has more than an inch of clearance from the bottom of
>>>the pump's reservoir so I shouldn't have this problem again. Other
>>>than my time, zero cost for an after hours HVAC repair. What's the
>>>going rate for that? Enough to pay for the cordless drill and
>>>oscillating saw?
>>
>>It's worth it! Plumbing and I don't get along at all. Whatever I
>>touch, breaks.
>
>I have no problem with soldered copper or glued PVC. Threaded plastic
>compression connections (P-trap and similar) just don't like me :-(

I should have been clearer. Repairs always go sideways. I can cut it
all out and start over, at least in copper. I don't have enough
experience with CPVC to know. It's the pressure side that always
blows up, though I have had nine-rounders with toilet flange seals,
too.

On 8/27/2021 10:40 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>> On 8/27/2021 8:53 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>> On 8/26/2021 1:40 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Interesting observation. Maybe we were just poor, or extremely
>>>>>> intelligent. Rich people today could not poor piss out of a boot with
>>>>>> out an assistant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I would expect rich people to be smart enough not to piss in their
>>>>> boots.
>>>>
>>>> One would expect! My boss 25 years ago, owner of the company I was a GM
>>>> for, was a few months younger than me. AND a college graduate I might add.
>>>
>>> Generalizing from a single example is fraught. The distribution of
>>> intelligence (and pretty much everything else) falls along a bell
>>> curve.
>>
>> I can give you many examples but this is the one that a middle school
>
> A very intelligent person can have trouble with math. That doesn't make
> them not intelligent, just not perfect. Not all college degrees require
> mathematical skills.

Certainly but this example is not even algebra, simply multiplication
and division.
BUT you may have a point, many people have problems with doing simple
math in their "head". We know a couple and she is no dummy but if she
did not have 10 fingers simple addition would be impossible for her.

>
> Anecdotal evidence is isn't. (evidence, that is).
>
> Personally, I know quite a few people in the 1%, including many scientists,
> venture capitalists and CEOs. They're all quite intelligent and don't ever
> piss in their boots (nor would they have any difficulty doing so
> were it necessary; as well as subsequently pouring it out).

Do you have proof of that? '~)

>
> As I noted, it's a bell curve; you'll find rich folks on either end,
> although the lower end is generally inherited wealth, not self-made.

Yes there is that. Inherited wealth does not make one even smart.
Watch how fast it disappears after acquisition. I have a couple of
cousins that fall into that category.

And then there are those that you see every day on TV. Entertainers,
actors, and professional sports figures. They are rich and as history
points out most are not terribly smart. The majority are talented but
not smart. The college scandal comes to mind and pro athletes that are
broke a few years after retirement.

>
>
>>> A net worth of ten million puts one in the soi distant 1%.
>>>
>> Actually a millionaire in 1960 would need ten million to have the same
>> buying power. Net worth is the addition of assets, not buying power.
>
> assets and buying power (which leverages assets) aren't as different
> as you think.

Leave credit out of this. ;~)

>
> My point was that the term 'millionaire' doesn't have the same
> cachet today as it had when you were growing up, particularly given
> current real-estate valuations - although as you correctly noted,
> those assets aren't liquid, they can be leveraged.
>

Yes and that is possible future value but not actual wealth, leveraging.

On 8/27/2021 8:11 PM, hubops@ccanoemail.ca wrote:
>
>>
>> One my former managers had a net worth that put him into your "distant 1%"
>> and retired early. He couldn't get a car loan. The banks just said
>> "pay cash". "If you can't use your money, why should we take the risk
>> with ours?"
>
>
> Seriously ?
> ... that does not sound like any bank that I have ever known !
> .. not that a car loan is a good idea - except for the bank.
> I have heard of cases where a person didn't have any kind
> of "credit rating" that the bank could check -
> because they never had any credit cards or debt of any kind.
> .. I think my oldest brother might fit-the-bill.
> John T.
>

The banking industry has gotten pretty weird.

As an example we have had a credit card from a particular bank for many
years. Our FICO for both of us is a couple of points under 800. We
were going to buy a new home last year and our credit scores from the
big 3 agencies averaged above 800.

We "cannot" open a savings account at the above mentioned bank with out
a credit check. Never mind that they know what our credit is, we use
their credit card all the time and pay it off every month.

On 8/27/2021 10:21 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 22:50:37 -0400, ads wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 19:04:16 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 13:53:14 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>>> On 8/26/2021 1:40 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> Interesting observation. Maybe we were just poor, or extremely
>>>>>>> intelligent. Rich people today could not poor piss out of a boot with
>>>>>>> out an assistant.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would expect rich people to be smart enough not to piss in their
>>>>>> boots.
>>>>>
>>>>> One would expect! My boss 25 years ago, owner of the company I was a GM
>>>>> for, was a few months younger than me. AND a college graduate I might add.
>>>>
>>>> Generalizing from a single example is fraught. The distribution of
>>>> intelligence (and pretty much everything else) falls along a bell
>>>> curve.
>>>
>>> By definition.
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What do you consider rich?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A net worth of at least a couple million dollars. And at least half of
>>>>> that being liquid.
>>>>
>>>> A millionaire in 1960 would need ten million dollars today to have
>>>> the same net worth.
>>>
>>> We just this discussion here. One may be able to retire comfortably on
>>> a megabuck AND Social Security, as long as you don't live too long.
>>> Retire before 65, and you'd better make that two-megabux.
>>>
>>> As you point out, $1M ain't what it used to be.
>>>>
>>>> A net worth of ten million puts one in the soi distant 1%
>>
>> Didn't have the megabuck when I retired 20+ years ago, but I was smart
>> enough to take advantage of job offers after I retired - I think I've
>> now retired 4 times ;-)
>
> Well, sure. I was "retired" 15 years ago but still work. Working isn't
> retired.

AH! Good description that I have been looking for. I actually retired
at 40. Did not plan it but I/we did fine. I continued to work for
gravy spending. In fact we continued to make accelerated house payments
for 2.5 years after I retired. But I still work, a little. LOL I
bring in about what I did 40 years ago, no make that 45 years ago.

>>
>> Being frugal (OK, cheap) and of the DIY persuasion also helps. Had an
>> HVAC semi-emergency the other night - the condensate pump not moving
>> the water and there's water in the catch pan. The pump was
>> semi-permanently installed (PVC drain pipe assembled in place -
>> including the entry to the pump's reservoir) so you must cut the pipe
>> to get the pump out. First some old towels to cath the drips, then
>> drill a small hole in the pipe just above where it enters the pump. No
>> water from that hole so they blockage is in the pump's reservoir of
>> it's above the hole I drilled. Oscillating saw to take the pipe off
>> at the top of the pump housing, then a funnel and pircher to run water
>> through the pump and see what's under the murky water. Two quarts
>> later, the bottom of the pump's reservoir can be seen and the pump
>> works fine. Now the drain pipe is too short to enter the pump's
>> housing but that's OK as there's space for a piece of 2x4 to go under
>> the pump and raise it just high enough to capture the pipe. Three
>> days later it's still working fine - the original installation had the
>> end of the pipe too close to the bottom of the pump's reservoir and
>> the bits of debris (fuzz, lint, whatever) that wash down from the
>> evaporator coil had accumulated deeply enough to block the drain pipe.
>> That pipe now has more than an inch of clearance from the bottom of
>> the pump's reservoir so I shouldn't have this problem again. Other
>> than my time, zero cost for an after hours HVAC repair. What's the
>> going rate for that? Enough to pay for the cordless drill and
>> oscillating saw?
>
> It's worth it! Plumbing and I don't get along at all. Whatever I
> touch, breaks.
>

I have done my share of outside the wall plumbing. I have learned that
a connection will leak if it is too loose or too tight.
The lesson I learned is to leave a dry paper towel under the new
connection for 24 hours.

On 8/28/2021 8:40 AM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 05:41:01 -0400, ads wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 23:21:58 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 22:50:37 -0400, ads wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 19:04:16 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 13:53:14 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>>>>> On 8/26/2021 1:40 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Interesting observation. Maybe we were just poor, or extremely
>>>>>>>>> intelligent. Rich people today could not poor piss out of a boot with
>>>>>>>>> out an assistant.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would expect rich people to be smart enough not to piss in their
>>>>>>>> boots.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One would expect! My boss 25 years ago, owner of the company I was a GM
>>>>>>> for, was a few months younger than me. AND a college graduate I might add.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Generalizing from a single example is fraught. The distribution of
>>>>>> intelligence (and pretty much everything else) falls along a bell
>>>>>> curve.
>>>>>
>>>>> By definition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What do you consider rich?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A net worth of at least a couple million dollars. And at least half of
>>>>>>> that being liquid.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A millionaire in 1960 would need ten million dollars today to have
>>>>>> the same net worth.
>>>>>
>>>>> We just this discussion here. One may be able to retire comfortably on
>>>>> a megabuck AND Social Security, as long as you don't live too long.
>>>>> Retire before 65, and you'd better make that two-megabux.
>>>>>
>>>>> As you point out, $1M ain't what it used to be.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A net worth of ten million puts one in the soi distant 1%
>>>>
>>>> Didn't have the megabuck when I retired 20+ years ago, but I was smart
>>>> enough to take advantage of job offers after I retired - I think I've
>>>> now retired 4 times ;-)
>>>
>>> Well, sure. I was "retired" 15 years ago but still work. Working isn't
>>> retired.
>>>>
>>>> Being frugal (OK, cheap) and of the DIY persuasion also helps. Had an
>>>> HVAC semi-emergency the other night - the condensate pump not moving
>>>> the water and there's water in the catch pan. The pump was
>>>> semi-permanently installed (PVC drain pipe assembled in place -
>>>> including the entry to the pump's reservoir) so you must cut the pipe
>>>> to get the pump out. First some old towels to cath the drips, then
>>>> drill a small hole in the pipe just above where it enters the pump. No
>>>> water from that hole so they blockage is in the pump's reservoir of
>>>> it's above the hole I drilled. Oscillating saw to take the pipe off
>>>> at the top of the pump housing, then a funnel and pircher to run water
>>>> through the pump and see what's under the murky water. Two quarts
>>>> later, the bottom of the pump's reservoir can be seen and the pump
>>>> works fine. Now the drain pipe is too short to enter the pump's
>>>> housing but that's OK as there's space for a piece of 2x4 to go under
>>>> the pump and raise it just high enough to capture the pipe. Three
>>>> days later it's still working fine - the original installation had the
>>>> end of the pipe too close to the bottom of the pump's reservoir and
>>>> the bits of debris (fuzz, lint, whatever) that wash down from the
>>>> evaporator coil had accumulated deeply enough to block the drain pipe.
>>>> That pipe now has more than an inch of clearance from the bottom of
>>>> the pump's reservoir so I shouldn't have this problem again. Other
>>>> than my time, zero cost for an after hours HVAC repair. What's the
>>>> going rate for that? Enough to pay for the cordless drill and
>>>> oscillating saw?
>>>
>>> It's worth it! Plumbing and I don't get along at all. Whatever I
>>> touch, breaks.
>>
>> I have no problem with soldered copper or glued PVC. Threaded plastic
>> compression connections (P-trap and similar) just don't like me :-(
>
> I should have been clearer. Repairs always go sideways. I can cut it
> all out and start over, at least in copper. I don't have enough
> experience with CPVC to know. It's the pressure side that always
> blows up, though I have had nine-rounders with toilet flange seals,
> too.
>

9 rounders with toilet flange seals, LOL. It might have been cheaper to
have called a plumber in on that one.. LOL

On 8/27/2021 9:11 PM, hubops@ccanoemail.ca wrote:
>
>>
>> One my former managers had a net worth that put him into your "distant 1%"
>> and retired early. He couldn't get a car loan. The banks just said
>> "pay cash". "If you can't use your money, why should we take the risk
>> with ours?"
>
>
> Seriously ?
> ... that does not sound like any bank that I have ever known !
> .. not that a car loan is a good idea - except for the bank.
> I have heard of cases where a person didn't have any kind
> of "credit rating" that the bank could check -
> because they never had any credit cards or debt of any kind.
> .. I think my oldest brother might fit-the-bill.
> John T.

My brother also fit that bill. Never had a loan, never had a credit
card. He was buying a computer from Gateway via mail many years ago,
and he wanted a credit card to pay the $4000 bill. His bank gave him a
hard time because he had no credit rating so they wanted to give him a
small credit limit, not enough to pay for the computer. He told them in
that case, he would pull is $50,000 cash account from their bank, an put
it in another bank. They decided he was a good risk after all...

--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.

On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 12:22:35 -0400, Jack <jbstein2@comcast.net> wrote:

>On 8/27/2021 9:11 PM, hubops@ccanoemail.ca wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> One my former managers had a net worth that put him into your "distant 1%"
>>> and retired early. He couldn't get a car loan. The banks just said
>>> "pay cash". "If you can't use your money, why should we take the risk
>>> with ours?"
>>
>>
>> Seriously ?
>> ... that does not sound like any bank that I have ever known !
>> .. not that a car loan is a good idea - except for the bank.
>> I have heard of cases where a person didn't have any kind
>> of "credit rating" that the bank could check -
>> because they never had any credit cards or debt of any kind.
>> .. I think my oldest brother might fit-the-bill.
>> John T.
>
>My brother also fit that bill. Never had a loan, never had a credit
>card. He was buying a computer from Gateway via mail many years ago,
>and he wanted a credit card to pay the $4000 bill. His bank gave him a
>hard time because he had no credit rating so they wanted to give him a
>small credit limit, not enough to pay for the computer. He told them in
>that case, he would pull is $50,000 cash account from their bank, an put
>it in another bank. They decided he was a good risk after all...

A few years after a relocation I learned that my bank started to
charge a dormant account fee of $ 1. per month
until my account went to zero - about $ 50. total -
I complained and was offered 1/2 of the amount refunded -
I asked for the Mgr. / Asst Mgr. and he was holding to that offer.
When I told him that I hadn't received any mailings about this new fee
- he stated that the rule-change was posted at the branches - Duh !
.. the account is dormant ! I'm not visiting the branch !
I finally asked him to check his computer for my and my wife's
retirement savings accounts and asked him if he really wanted to
lose that business over the $ 25. ...
... his " I don't like to be threatened " answer was met with
a calm reply - " It's not a threat, it's a promise. "
I got my complete refund and closed the dormant account
and soon after transferred all the retirement savings accounts also.
John T.

On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 14:13:36 -0400, hubops@ccanoemail.ca wrote:

>On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 12:22:35 -0400, Jack <jbstein2@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>On 8/27/2021 9:11 PM, hubops@ccanoemail.ca wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> One my former managers had a net worth that put him into your "distant 1%"
>>>> and retired early. He couldn't get a car loan. The banks just said
>>>> "pay cash". "If you can't use your money, why should we take the risk
>>>> with ours?"
>>>
>>>
>>> Seriously ?
>>> ... that does not sound like any bank that I have ever known !
>>> .. not that a car loan is a good idea - except for the bank.
>>> I have heard of cases where a person didn't have any kind
>>> of "credit rating" that the bank could check -
>>> because they never had any credit cards or debt of any kind.
>>> .. I think my oldest brother might fit-the-bill.
>>> John T.
>>
>>My brother also fit that bill. Never had a loan, never had a credit
>>card. He was buying a computer from Gateway via mail many years ago,
>>and he wanted a credit card to pay the $4000 bill. His bank gave him a
>>hard time because he had no credit rating so they wanted to give him a
>>small credit limit, not enough to pay for the computer. He told them in
>>that case, he would pull is $50,000 cash account from their bank, an put
>>it in another bank. They decided he was a good risk after all...
>
>
> A few years after a relocation I learned that my bank started to
>charge a dormant account fee of $ 1. per month
> until my account went to zero - about $ 50. total -
>I complained and was offered 1/2 of the amount refunded -
> I asked for the Mgr. / Asst Mgr. and he was holding to that offer.
>When I told him that I hadn't received any mailings about this new fee
>- he stated that the rule-change was posted at the branches - Duh !
> .. the account is dormant ! I'm not visiting the branch !
>I finally asked him to check his computer for my and my wife's
>retirement savings accounts and asked him if he really wanted to
>lose that business over the $ 25. ...
>.. his " I don't like to be threatened " answer was met with
>a calm reply - " It's not a threat, it's a promise. "
> I got my complete refund and closed the dormant account
>and soon after transferred all the retirement savings accounts also.

That's the way to lose customers. We have life insurance policies in
force with face amounts under $10 that we've been carrying on the
books for decades.

On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 22:50:37 -0400, ads wrote:

>On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 19:04:16 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 13:53:14 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>>On 8/26/2021 1:40 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Interesting observation. Maybe we were just poor, or extremely
>>>>>> intelligent. Rich people today could not poor piss out of a boot with
>>>>>> out an assistant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I would expect rich people to be smart enough not to piss in their
>>>>> boots.
>>>>
>>>>One would expect! My boss 25 years ago, owner of the company I was a GM
>>>>for, was a few months younger than me. AND a college graduate I might add.
>>>
>>>Generalizing from a single example is fraught. The distribution of
>>>intelligence (and pretty much everything else) falls along a bell
>>>curve.
>>
>>By definition.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What do you consider rich?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>A net worth of at least a couple million dollars. And at least half of
>>>>that being liquid.
>>>
>>>A millionaire in 1960 would need ten million dollars today to have
>>>the same net worth.
>>
>>We just this discussion here. One may be able to retire comfortably on
>>a megabuck AND Social Security, as long as you don't live too long.
>>Retire before 65, and you'd better make that two-megabux.
>>
>>As you point out, $1M ain't what it used to be.
>>>
>>>A net worth of ten million puts one in the soi distant 1%
>
>Didn't have the megabuck when I retired 20+ years ago, but I was smart
>enough to take advantage of job offers after I retired - I think I've
>now retired 4 times ;-)
>
>Being frugal (OK, cheap) and of the DIY persuasion also helps. Had an
>HVAC semi-emergency the other night - the condensate pump not moving
>the water and there's water in the catch pan. The pump was
>semi-permanently installed (PVC drain pipe assembled in place -
>including the entry to the pump's reservoir) so you must cut the pipe
>to get the pump out. First some old towels to cath the drips, then
>drill a small hole in the pipe just above where it enters the pump. No
>water from that hole so they blockage is in the pump's reservoir of
>it's above the hole I drilled. Oscillating saw to take the pipe off
>at the top of the pump housing, then a funnel and pircher to run water
>through the pump and see what's under the murky water. Two quarts
>later, the bottom of the pump's reservoir can be seen and the pump
>works fine. Now the drain pipe is too short to enter the pump's
>housing but that's OK as there's space for a piece of 2x4 to go under
>the pump and raise it just high enough to capture the pipe. Three
>days later it's still working fine - the original installation had the
>end of the pipe too close to the bottom of the pump's reservoir and
>the bits of debris (fuzz, lint, whatever) that wash down from the
>evaporator coil had accumulated deeply enough to block the drain pipe.
>That pipe now has more than an inch of clearance from the bottom of
>the pump's reservoir so I shouldn't have this problem again. Other
>than my time, zero cost for an after hours HVAC repair. What's the
>going rate for that? Enough to pay for the cordless drill and
>oscillating saw?
Twice over??? Not to mention the "expert" wouldn't have "fixed" it -
he'd have sold you a new pump and likely as not installed it EXACTLY
the way the failed one was installed - - - -

On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 09:21:22 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 8/27/2021 10:40 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>> On 8/27/2021 8:53 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>>> On 8/26/2021 1:40 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> Interesting observation. Maybe we were just poor, or extremely
>>>>>>> intelligent. Rich people today could not poor piss out of a boot with
>>>>>>> out an assistant.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would expect rich people to be smart enough not to piss in their
>>>>>> boots.
>>>>>
>>>>> One would expect! My boss 25 years ago, owner of the company I was a GM
>>>>> for, was a few months younger than me. AND a college graduate I might add.
>>>>
>>>> Generalizing from a single example is fraught. The distribution of
>>>> intelligence (and pretty much everything else) falls along a bell
>>>> curve.
>>>
>>> I can give you many examples but this is the one that a middle school
>>
>> A very intelligent person can have trouble with math. That doesn't make
>> them not intelligent, just not perfect. Not all college degrees require
>> mathematical skills.
>
>Certainly but this example is not even algebra, simply multiplication
>and division.
>BUT you may have a point, many people have problems with doing simple
>math in their "head". We know a couple and she is no dummy but if she
>did not have 10 fingers simple addition would be impossible for her.
>
>
>
>>
>> Anecdotal evidence is isn't. (evidence, that is).
>>
>> Personally, I know quite a few people in the 1%, including many scientists,
>> venture capitalists and CEOs. They're all quite intelligent and don't ever
>> piss in their boots (nor would they have any difficulty doing so
>> were it necessary; as well as subsequently pouring it out).
>
>Do you have proof of that? '~)
>
>
>>
>> As I noted, it's a bell curve; you'll find rich folks on either end,
>> although the lower end is generally inherited wealth, not self-made.
>
>Yes there is that. Inherited wealth does not make one even smart.
>Watch how fast it disappears after acquisition. I have a couple of
>cousins that fall into that category.
>
>
>And then there are those that you see every day on TV. Entertainers,
>actors, and professional sports figures. They are rich and as history
>points out most are not terribly smart. The majority are talented but
>not smart. The college scandal comes to mind and pro athletes that are
>broke a few years after retirement.
>
How about major lottery (1M+) winners?
>>
>>
>>>> A net worth of ten million puts one in the soi distant 1%.
>>>>
>>> Actually a millionaire in 1960 would need ten million to have the same
>>> buying power. Net worth is the addition of assets, not buying power.
>>
>> assets and buying power (which leverages assets) aren't as different
>> as you think.
>
>Leave credit out of this. ;~)
>
>
>>
>> My point was that the term 'millionaire' doesn't have the same
>> cachet today as it had when you were growing up, particularly given
>> current real-estate valuations - although as you correctly noted,
>> those assets aren't liquid, they can be leveraged.
>>
>
>Yes and that is possible future value but not actual wealth, leveraging.

Ask Dave Ramsey about leveraging.

On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 09:44:30 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 8/27/2021 10:21 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 22:50:37 -0400, ads wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 19:04:16 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 13:53:14 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>>>> On 8/26/2021 1:40 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Interesting observation. Maybe we were just poor, or extremely
>>>>>>>> intelligent. Rich people today could not poor piss out of a boot with
>>>>>>>> out an assistant.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would expect rich people to be smart enough not to piss in their
>>>>>>> boots.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One would expect! My boss 25 years ago, owner of the company I was a GM
>>>>>> for, was a few months younger than me. AND a college graduate I might add.
>>>>>
>>>>> Generalizing from a single example is fraught. The distribution of
>>>>> intelligence (and pretty much everything else) falls along a bell
>>>>> curve.
>>>>
>>>> By definition.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What do you consider rich?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A net worth of at least a couple million dollars. And at least half of
>>>>>> that being liquid.
>>>>>
>>>>> A millionaire in 1960 would need ten million dollars today to have
>>>>> the same net worth.
>>>>
>>>> We just this discussion here. One may be able to retire comfortably on
>>>> a megabuck AND Social Security, as long as you don't live too long.
>>>> Retire before 65, and you'd better make that two-megabux.
>>>>
>>>> As you point out, $1M ain't what it used to be.
>>>>>
>>>>> A net worth of ten million puts one in the soi distant 1%
>>>
>>> Didn't have the megabuck when I retired 20+ years ago, but I was smart
>>> enough to take advantage of job offers after I retired - I think I've
>>> now retired 4 times ;-)
>>
>> Well, sure. I was "retired" 15 years ago but still work. Working isn't
>> retired.
>
>AH! Good description that I have been looking for. I actually retired
>at 40. Did not plan it but I/we did fine. I continued to work for
>gravy spending. In fact we continued to make accelerated house payments
>for 2.5 years after I retired. But I still work, a little. LOL I
>bring in about what I did 40 years ago, no make that 45 years ago.
>
>
>
>
>>>
>>> Being frugal (OK, cheap) and of the DIY persuasion also helps. Had an
>>> HVAC semi-emergency the other night - the condensate pump not moving
>>> the water and there's water in the catch pan. The pump was
>>> semi-permanently installed (PVC drain pipe assembled in place -
>>> including the entry to the pump's reservoir) so you must cut the pipe
>>> to get the pump out. First some old towels to cath the drips, then
>>> drill a small hole in the pipe just above where it enters the pump. No
>>> water from that hole so they blockage is in the pump's reservoir of
>>> it's above the hole I drilled. Oscillating saw to take the pipe off
>>> at the top of the pump housing, then a funnel and pircher to run water
>>> through the pump and see what's under the murky water. Two quarts
>>> later, the bottom of the pump's reservoir can be seen and the pump
>>> works fine. Now the drain pipe is too short to enter the pump's
>>> housing but that's OK as there's space for a piece of 2x4 to go under
>>> the pump and raise it just high enough to capture the pipe. Three
>>> days later it's still working fine - the original installation had the
>>> end of the pipe too close to the bottom of the pump's reservoir and
>>> the bits of debris (fuzz, lint, whatever) that wash down from the
>>> evaporator coil had accumulated deeply enough to block the drain pipe.
>>> That pipe now has more than an inch of clearance from the bottom of
>>> the pump's reservoir so I shouldn't have this problem again. Other
>>> than my time, zero cost for an after hours HVAC repair. What's the
>>> going rate for that? Enough to pay for the cordless drill and
>>> oscillating saw?
>>
>> It's worth it! Plumbing and I don't get along at all. Whatever I
>> touch, breaks.
>>
>
>I have done my share of outside the wall plumbing. I have learned that
>a connection will leak if it is too loose or too tight.
>The lesson I learned is to leave a dry paper towel under the new
>connection for 24 hours.

Yep! I do that whenever I need to clean out a trap. I leave it in a
pan, below, so I know where it came from.

On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 09:44:30 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 8/27/2021 10:21 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 22:50:37 -0400, ads wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 19:04:16 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 13:53:14 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>>>> On 8/26/2021 1:40 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Interesting observation. Maybe we were just poor, or extremely
>>>>>>>> intelligent. Rich people today could not poor piss out of a boot with
>>>>>>>> out an assistant.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would expect rich people to be smart enough not to piss in their
>>>>>>> boots.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One would expect! My boss 25 years ago, owner of the company I was a GM
>>>>>> for, was a few months younger than me. AND a college graduate I might add.
>>>>>
>>>>> Generalizing from a single example is fraught. The distribution of
>>>>> intelligence (and pretty much everything else) falls along a bell
>>>>> curve.
>>>>
>>>> By definition.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What do you consider rich?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A net worth of at least a couple million dollars. And at least half of
>>>>>> that being liquid.
>>>>>
>>>>> A millionaire in 1960 would need ten million dollars today to have
>>>>> the same net worth.
>>>>
>>>> We just this discussion here. One may be able to retire comfortably on
>>>> a megabuck AND Social Security, as long as you don't live too long.
>>>> Retire before 65, and you'd better make that two-megabux.
>>>>
>>>> As you point out, $1M ain't what it used to be.
>>>>>
>>>>> A net worth of ten million puts one in the soi distant 1%
>>>
>>> Didn't have the megabuck when I retired 20+ years ago, but I was smart
>>> enough to take advantage of job offers after I retired - I think I've
>>> now retired 4 times ;-)
>>
>> Well, sure. I was "retired" 15 years ago but still work. Working isn't
>> retired.
>
>AH! Good description that I have been looking for. I actually retired
>at 40. Did not plan it but I/we did fine. I continued to work for
>gravy spending. In fact we continued to make accelerated house payments
>for 2.5 years after I retired. But I still work, a little. LOL I
>bring in about what I did 40 years ago, no make that 45 years ago.
>
>
>
>
>>>
>>> Being frugal (OK, cheap) and of the DIY persuasion also helps. Had an
>>> HVAC semi-emergency the other night - the condensate pump not moving
>>> the water and there's water in the catch pan. The pump was
>>> semi-permanently installed (PVC drain pipe assembled in place -
>>> including the entry to the pump's reservoir) so you must cut the pipe
>>> to get the pump out. First some old towels to cath the drips, then
>>> drill a small hole in the pipe just above where it enters the pump. No
>>> water from that hole so they blockage is in the pump's reservoir of
>>> it's above the hole I drilled. Oscillating saw to take the pipe off
>>> at the top of the pump housing, then a funnel and pircher to run water
>>> through the pump and see what's under the murky water. Two quarts
>>> later, the bottom of the pump's reservoir can be seen and the pump
>>> works fine. Now the drain pipe is too short to enter the pump's
>>> housing but that's OK as there's space for a piece of 2x4 to go under
>>> the pump and raise it just high enough to capture the pipe. Three
>>> days later it's still working fine - the original installation had the
>>> end of the pipe too close to the bottom of the pump's reservoir and
>>> the bits of debris (fuzz, lint, whatever) that wash down from the
>>> evaporator coil had accumulated deeply enough to block the drain pipe.
>>> That pipe now has more than an inch of clearance from the bottom of
>>> the pump's reservoir so I shouldn't have this problem again. Other
>>> than my time, zero cost for an after hours HVAC repair. What's the
>>> going rate for that? Enough to pay for the cordless drill and
>>> oscillating saw?
>>
>> It's worth it! Plumbing and I don't get along at all. Whatever I
>> touch, breaks.
>>
>
>I have done my share of outside the wall plumbing. I have learned that
>a connection will leak if it is too loose or too tight.
>The lesson I learned is to leave a dry paper towel under the new
>connection for 24 hours.
ANd NEVER close the wall after a plumbing repair for at least a
week!!!
I've been "retired" from "wrenching" since 1989 - but doing my own
has saved me 10s of thousands of dollars over the ensuing years -
allowing me to drive lower cost used vehicles without paying for
expensive repairs. I could NEVER afford to drive old vehicles like my
25 year old pickup if I didn't do my own repairs - and owning new
vehicles and trading every 3 years would have cost me close to (likely
well over) a hundred grand between myself and the wife - not counting
the kids (who buy their own cars but have depended on dear old Dad to
keep them on the road)
I also do all my own electrical and plumbing maintenance and repairs
(I DID pay an electrician to do the panel changeover a few years back
for permit/inspection reasons - not that I couldn't do it- and to have
the furnace replaced back in 03) but I replaced the AC, water heater,
water softener (after having rebuilt it twice in 30 years) and I still
mow my lawn with a mower built in '61 (rebuilt several times) and I
did my own hardwood flooring, tiling etc.

Like I told my good wifr last week after putting the engine back into
the truck after fixing a "minor oil leak" I can still do pretty much
what I could fo in my forties - I just pay for it (in pain) for a bit
longer - - -

On 8/28/2021 4:23 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 09:21:22 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 8/27/2021 10:40 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>> On 8/27/2021 8:53 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>>>> On 8/26/2021 1:40 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Interesting observation. Maybe we were just poor, or extremely
>>>>>>>> intelligent. Rich people today could not poor piss out of a boot with
>>>>>>>> out an assistant.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would expect rich people to be smart enough not to piss in their
>>>>>>> boots.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One would expect! My boss 25 years ago, owner of the company I was a GM
>>>>>> for, was a few months younger than me. AND a college graduate I might add.
>>>>>
>>>>> Generalizing from a single example is fraught. The distribution of
>>>>> intelligence (and pretty much everything else) falls along a bell
>>>>> curve.
>>>>
>>>> I can give you many examples but this is the one that a middle school
>>>
>>> A very intelligent person can have trouble with math. That doesn't make
>>> them not intelligent, just not perfect. Not all college degrees require
>>> mathematical skills.
>>
>> Certainly but this example is not even algebra, simply multiplication
>> and division.
>> BUT you may have a point, many people have problems with doing simple
>> math in their "head". We know a couple and she is no dummy but if she
>> did not have 10 fingers simple addition would be impossible for her.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Anecdotal evidence is isn't. (evidence, that is).
>>>
>>> Personally, I know quite a few people in the 1%, including many scientists,
>>> venture capitalists and CEOs. They're all quite intelligent and don't ever
>>> piss in their boots (nor would they have any difficulty doing so
>>> were it necessary; as well as subsequently pouring it out).
>>
>> Do you have proof of that? '~)
>>
>>
>>>
>>> As I noted, it's a bell curve; you'll find rich folks on either end,
>>> although the lower end is generally inherited wealth, not self-made.
>>
>> Yes there is that. Inherited wealth does not make one even smart.
>> Watch how fast it disappears after acquisition. I have a couple of
>> cousins that fall into that category.
>>
>>
>> And then there are those that you see every day on TV. Entertainers,
>> actors, and professional sports figures. They are rich and as history
>> points out most are not terribly smart. The majority are talented but
>> not smart. The college scandal comes to mind and pro athletes that are
>> broke a few years after retirement.
>>
> How about major lottery (1M+) winners?
>>>
>>>
>>>>> A net worth of ten million puts one in the soi distant 1%.
>>>>>
>>>> Actually a millionaire in 1960 would need ten million to have the same
>>>> buying power. Net worth is the addition of assets, not buying power.
>>>
>>> assets and buying power (which leverages assets) aren't as different
>>> as you think.
>>
>> Leave credit out of this. ;~)
>>
>>
>>>
>>> My point was that the term 'millionaire' doesn't have the same
>>> cachet today as it had when you were growing up, particularly given
>>> current real-estate valuations - although as you correctly noted,
>>> those assets aren't liquid, they can be leveraged.
>>>
>>
>> Yes and that is possible future value but not actual wealth, leveraging.
>
> Ask Dave Ramsey about leveraging.
>
;~)

Before he learned the hard way I think he went bankrupt.
I came up with a very successful strategy for getting out of debt and
staying out of debt about 34 years ago. I mentioned it to several close
relatives and a few friends and my boss.
Yes the boss that I have been speaking about in this thread. All but one
took my advice and all became debt free relatively quickly, except for
one neighbor.

Anyway, my son watched and learned how my wife and I handled finances.
Turns out he too has a knack for numbers and on his own listened to Dave
Ramsey religiously when he was 19. Hey DAD! this guy on the radio
proposes handling debt and finances just like you and mom have been
doing. We put our plan in place before my son was born. My son had his
masters and CPA exams behind him just before his 23 birthday. He has
been debt free including his home since he was 27.