On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 2:39:57 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 1:27:18 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
> > jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> writes:
> >
> > > On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 8:44:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> On 10/5/2021 10:15 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> > >> > "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
> > >> >
> > >> >> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 9:28:05 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Now that companies are firing employees that refuse to get vaccinated,
> > >> >>> and universities are expelling students that refuse to get vaccinated
> > >> >>> (other than those that have a valid medical reason for refusing), the
> > >> >>> percentages will start to rise in the U.S..
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Maybe, possibly, if we are really lucky. BUT, even if the vaccination
> > >> >> rises due to the threats, it will be a miniscule minimal amount. 0.1%
> > >> >> each month or so. As you state we are at 56.3% fully vaccinated now.
> > >> >> If my 0.1% is accurate, it will take 15 years 7 months to reach that
> > >> >> mythical herd immunity percentage of 75%. 1 million, 2 million, 3
> > >> >> million more dead people? From a disease that is easily prevented
> > >> >> with an available vaccine. Is that winning?
> > >> >
> > >> > Except it's not prevented by the available vaccine. CDC agrees that
> > >> > vaccinated people can and do become infected and do spread the disease.
> > >> > The "mythical" herd immunity vaccination threshold is indeed mythical,
> > >> > there is no reason to think that covid would vanish even at 100%
> > >> > vaccination.
> > >> >
> > >> > Successful human vaccines, such as smallpox, polio, measles, mumps,
> > >> > pertussis, &c produce "sterilizing immunity". The vaccinated do not
> > >> > become infected. The available covid vaccines do not work this way and
> > >> > hence are not comparable. Leaky vaccines like those for covid allow the
> > >> > virus to continue to evolve among the vaccinated, which has given rise
> > >> > to at least one remarkably lethal viral disease in chickens. Do a
> > >> > search for "Marek's disease".
> > >> >
> > >> +1
> > >> Which is why I have avoided calling the Pfizer/Moderna mRNA
> > >> products 'vaccine'. J&J is an actual vaccine of attenuated
> > >> virus.
> > >>
> > >> The mRNA jab promotes production of a blood-borne antibody.
> > >> An antibody, one of the body's defenses, but only one.
> > >> This is an important aspect of human immune response and is
> > >> effective for the (sometimes fatal)
> > >> vascular/cardiac/respiratory damage caused by a combination
> > >> of the virus and cysteine response. It does not promote
> > >> production of respiratory/mucosa antibodies (found in
> > >> 'natural' immunity) so you are exactly right. The mRNA shot
> > >> will likely keep you from dying but will not stop you from
> > >> contracting or spreading the CCP Wuhan product.
> > >
> > > "Natural immunity" isn't faring that well.
> > > https://news.yale.edu/2021/10/01/unvaccinated-reinfection-sars-cov-2-likely-study-finds
> > > Natural immunity and a vaccine appear to be the ticket, although one
> > > would prefer to skip being sick to start with. No vaccine is 100% and
> > > many are not effective forever. Flu vaccines are notoriously
> > > ineffective, but we still take them, and they prevent some infections..
> > Who is this "we"? Patients in the US are able to choose whether to get
> > a flu shot or not. They should be able to make a choice with respect to
> > covid as well. For healthy young people the covid vaccine is almost
> > certainly more dangerous, (albeit fairly safe), than infection with covid.
> Almost certainly? CDC says that vaccines are safer for young people than the disease, but maybe they are lying to us because they want to kill young people. Personally, I think we should be out to kill the old people to reduce the pressure on the SS/Medicare trusts.
> > As for natural immunity, here's a paper based on Israeli data that
> > claims considerably more protection from natural immunity than from
> > vaccination:
> >
> > https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1
> >
> > You might note that Israel was and is at the forefront in coercing their
> > citizens into covid vaccination. It does not seem to have gone very
> > well; last I read they were considering a mandate for boooster #2 (shot
> > #4).
> The Israel study showed that natural immunity and at least one dose of vaccine provided the best immunity. That's why I mentioned it. Whether their observational retrospective study is accurate is beyond my expertise. https://www.factcheck.org/2021/09/scicheck-instagram-post-missing-context-about-israeli-study-on-covid-19-natural-immunity/ The Yale study uses a different methodology, and I haven't read it completely, but it is peer reviewed and in Lancet. The bottom line for both studies is that getting poked is a plus, whether you're previously infected or not.
>
> -- Jay Beattie.
Jay, what in the hell does the CDC know about vaccines? Where did you get the idea that anyone other than Fauci might say that?

If you want to vaccinate yourself go right ahead. Stop your belief that Biden or any other government has the authority to force people to do so.

I don't know what the hell is going on in your head but it sure is slipping harder and harder to the left.

On 10/5/2021 4:27 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> jbeattie <jbeattie57@msn.com> writes:
>
>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 8:44:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 10/5/2021 10:15 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 9:28:05 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now that companies are firing employees that refuse to get vaccinated,
>>>>>> and universities are expelling students that refuse to get vaccinated
>>>>>> (other than those that have a valid medical reason for refusing), the
>>>>>> percentages will start to rise in the U.S..
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe, possibly, if we are really lucky. BUT, even if the vaccination
>>>>> rises due to the threats, it will be a miniscule minimal amount. 0.1%
>>>>> each month or so. As you state we are at 56.3% fully vaccinated now.
>>>>> If my 0.1% is accurate, it will take 15 years 7 months to reach that
>>>>> mythical herd immunity percentage of 75%. 1 million, 2 million, 3
>>>>> million more dead people? From a disease that is easily prevented
>>>>> with an available vaccine. Is that winning?
>>>>
>>>> Except it's not prevented by the available vaccine. CDC agrees that
>>>> vaccinated people can and do become infected and do spread the disease.
>>>> The "mythical" herd immunity vaccination threshold is indeed mythical,
>>>> there is no reason to think that covid would vanish even at 100%
>>>> vaccination.
>>>>
>>>> Successful human vaccines, such as smallpox, polio, measles, mumps,
>>>> pertussis, &c produce "sterilizing immunity". The vaccinated do not
>>>> become infected. The available covid vaccines do not work this way and
>>>> hence are not comparable. Leaky vaccines like those for covid allow the
>>>> virus to continue to evolve among the vaccinated, which has given rise
>>>> to at least one remarkably lethal viral disease in chickens. Do a
>>>> search for "Marek's disease".
>>>>
>>> +1
>>> Which is why I have avoided calling the Pfizer/Moderna mRNA
>>> products 'vaccine'. J&J is an actual vaccine of attenuated
>>> virus.
>>>
>>> The mRNA jab promotes production of a blood-borne antibody.
>>> An antibody, one of the body's defenses, but only one.
>>> This is an important aspect of human immune response and is
>>> effective for the (sometimes fatal)
>>> vascular/cardiac/respiratory damage caused by a combination
>>> of the virus and cysteine response. It does not promote
>>> production of respiratory/mucosa antibodies (found in
>>> 'natural' immunity) so you are exactly right. The mRNA shot
>>> will likely keep you from dying but will not stop you from
>>> contracting or spreading the CCP Wuhan product.
>>
>> "Natural immunity" isn't faring that well.
>> https://news.yale.edu/2021/10/01/unvaccinated-reinfection-sars-cov-2-likely-study-finds
>> Natural immunity and a vaccine appear to be the ticket, although one
>> would prefer to skip being sick to start with. No vaccine is 100% and
>> many are not effective forever. Flu vaccines are notoriously
>> ineffective, but we still take them, and they prevent some infections.
>
> Who is this "we"? Patients in the US are able to choose whether to get
> a flu shot or not. They should be able to make a choice with respect to
> covid as well.

And dammit, Mary Mallon* should have been allowed to work as a cook!
Freedom!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon

(* AKA Typhoid Mary)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 10/5/2021 4:29 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>
>> On 10/5/2021 11:15 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>
>>> Successful human vaccines, such as smallpox, polio, measles, mumps,
>>> pertussis, &c produce "sterilizing immunity". The vaccinated do not
>>> become infected. The available covid vaccines do not work this way and
>>> hence are not comparable.
>>
>> Sorry to disagree with you, but I have a close and beloved family
>> member who nearly died from a malady against which he was vaccinated.
>>
>> Also, a few years ago I had an extremely scary bronchial problem. My
>> primary care physician was afraid I had whooping cough, even though we
>> both knew I had been vaccinated against it. He said post-vaccination
>> whooping cough is uncommon, but a definite possibility. (Fortunately,
>> that was not my problem.)
>>
>> Then there are the many cases of post-vaccination shingles, and many
>> other diseases. These things happen. Vaccines are not as reliable as
>> light switches.
>
> I agree that no vaccine is 100% effective. However the covid vaccines
> are remarkably bad compared to other widely prescribed, let alone
> mandated, vaccines.

So instead, the strategy should have been... what? We've heard here that
it certainly shouldn't include masks or any restrictions affecting any
business.

Perhaps vitamin D?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 10/5/2021 7:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 10/5/2021 4:29 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>>
>>> On 10/5/2021 11:15 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Successful human vaccines, such as smallpox, polio,
>>>> measles, mumps,
>>>> pertussis, &c produce "sterilizing immunity". The
>>>> vaccinated do not
>>>> become infected. The available covid vaccines do not
>>>> work this way and
>>>> hence are not comparable.
>>>
>>> Sorry to disagree with you, but I have a close and
>>> beloved family
>>> member who nearly died from a malady against which he was
>>> vaccinated.
>>>
>>> Also, a few years ago I had an extremely scary bronchial
>>> problem. My
>>> primary care physician was afraid I had whooping cough,
>>> even though we
>>> both knew I had been vaccinated against it. He said
>>> post-vaccination
>>> whooping cough is uncommon, but a definite possibility.
>>> (Fortunately,
>>> that was not my problem.)
>>>
>>> Then there are the many cases of post-vaccination
>>> shingles, and many
>>> other diseases. These things happen. Vaccines are not as
>>> reliable as
>>> light switches.
>>
>> I agree that no vaccine is 100% effective. However the
>> covid vaccines
>> are remarkably bad compared to other widely prescribed,
>> let alone
>> mandated, vaccines.
>
> So instead, the strategy should have been... what? We've
> heard here that it certainly shouldn't include masks or any
> restrictions affecting any business.
>
> Perhaps vitamin D?
>
>

A great body of research, both lab and clinical, plus an
ever growing pile of opinion pieces by MDs, indicates that
various therapies (including, yes, Vitamin D where the
patient is deficient, a common malady of the aged) are
effective and safe. The incessant irrational and yes
pernicious attacks on each and every therapy (from common,
safe, very old drugs such as hydrochloroquine to monoclonal
antibodies such as Regeneron) is mystifying. Especially
mystifying in light of the known serious deficiencies of the
two mRNA shots.

As My Shouman noted earlier, "it's hard to account for this
in a charitable manner." to which I added my +1. At some
point a less than charitable conclusion remains after every
other case has been disproved.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 08:14:27 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 6:45:37 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 4 Oct 2021 07:28:01 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >On 10/3/2021 9:08 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >> On Sunday, October 3, 2021 at 3:07:08 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >>> Tell me something Scharf - we're being told that over 80% of the population has been vaccinated.
>> >>
>> >> Why do you LIE so much Tommy? Have your masters told you they will kick you out of the Trump rump licking club if you don't lie constantly?
>> >>
>> >> https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus-covid-19/vaccine-tracker
>> >> Vermont has the highest vaccination rate of any state at 69.6%.
>> >>
>> >> https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/states-ranked-by-percentage-of-population-vaccinated-march-15.html
>> >>
>> >> https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-19-vaccine-doses.html
>> >> 65% of the whole USA has received at least one dose of the vaccine. 56% of the whole USA is fully vaccinated.
>> >>
>> >> https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccinations_vacc-total-admin-rate-total
>> >> CDC says 64.8% of whole USA has received at least one dose. 75.8% of everyone above age 12.
>> >>
>> >> I realize you pulled this "over 80% of the population has been vaccinated" out of your butthole. But tell us how deep you had to reach?
>> >
>> >It's unclear why he chooses to lie. It could be a lack of education and
>> >lack of critical thinking skills combined with only reading news from
>> >fake news sites like Fox, Newsmax, OAN, etc.. It's not like anyone here,
>> >that hasn't filtered him out, actually believes anything he says.
>> >
>> >As to vaccination rates, some countries are at 80%, but not the U.S..
>> >The U.S. was at 56.3% on October 2nd. Puerto Rico is at 70.7%, Vermont
>> >is at 69.6%. That is fully vaccinated, not just one dose of a two dose
>> >vaccine. I was in Vermont last week and not only is the vaccination rate
>> >high, mask-wearing is nearly ubiquitous, even in places where there are
>> >signs that fully vaccinated individuals don't have to wear masks.
>> >
>> >I think that all U.S. airlines now require masks on-board, and they are
>> >very strict. I was on a flight last Thursday where they made an
>> >announcement, mid-flight, that masks could only be removed when actively
>> >eating or drinking, just having food or a beverage on your tray was not
>> >sufficient.
>> >
>> >Now that companies are firing employees that refuse to get vaccinated,
>> >and universities are expelling students that refuse to get vaccinated
>> >(other than those that have a valid medical reason for refusing), the
>> >percentages will start to rise in the U.S.. It's rather sad that it
>> >takes threats of being fired to stop people from being stupid.
>> Over here masks are almost 100%. I walk for exercise in the mornings
>> and I was admonished by a neighbor the other day for not wearing a
>> mask although I'm never within 10 feet of anyone. The news has it that
>> 90-something percent of Bangkokians wear masks. As for vaccination the
>> village (40,000 inhabitants) have free vaccination available and I
>> believe that nearly all are now vaccinated. The country is at
>> something like 60% I think and I just read that almost 90% in Bangkok
>> have received at least the first dose.
>>
>> But, you must remember that the Flat Earth Society is still active and
>> a YouGov survey of more than 8,000 American adults suggested last year
>> that as many as one in six Americans are not entirely certain the
>> world is round.
>
>John, doctors started wearing masks in the 1880's or so. The initial studies of masks but the (SIS - a forerunner of the CDC) began in 1918. These studies have occurred every couple of years and those that were peer reviewed NEVER showed any positive results. They didn't even show that they slowed down bacterial diseases, let alone viruses which are 200 times smaller than the breathing pores in an N95 mask. When doctors are afraid of being infected with a virus now, they use a RESPIRATOR and not a mask. Surgeons use a mask so that they are not distracted by spray from an incision. This is bothersome enough that many now use a full face plastic hood like is used in many manufacturing arenas. The LATEST study of the CDC was released in May of 2020 and the results were the same as always - masks had NO effect on corona virus transmission. https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

Tommy, I see your lips moving but you don't make sense.

Yes I hear your argument about the surgical masks, but Tommy, I have
been treated by a surgeon in, lets see, The US Air Force, several
times, Japan, Vietnam, Indonesia, Thailand and Singapore and in every
case the sturgeon wore a mask. But you tell us that is unnecessary?

And, you tell us that there have hardly been any Covid deaths at all
yet the CDC lists something like 725,000 deaths due to the disease.
And, it might be noted that the Dr Fauci, the Big Boss, is paid
something like a half a million dollars a year while you seem to be
squeaking by on the government dole and whatever you can scrounge
buying second hand junk on the Internet.

Why don't you call up Biden and tell him how you can do Fauci's so
much cheaper? You can stand there and sing the song about "Leaving on
a jet plane" while you are waiting for the transportation to arrive.

buffoon - a rude or vulgar fool, a person who amuses others by
ridiculous behavior.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 17:41:50 +0200, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de>
wrote:

>Am 05.10.2021 um 17:15 schrieb Radey Shouman:
>> "russellseaton1@yahoo.com" <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 9:28:05 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Now that companies are firing employees that refuse to get vaccinated,
>>>> and universities are expelling students that refuse to get vaccinated
>>>> (other than those that have a valid medical reason for refusing), the
>>>> percentages will start to rise in the U.S..
>>>
>>> Maybe, possibly, if we are really lucky. BUT, even if the vaccination
>>> rises due to the threats, it will be a miniscule minimal amount. 0.1%
>>> each month or so. As you state we are at 56.3% fully vaccinated now.
>>> If my 0.1% is accurate, it will take 15 years 7 months to reach that
>>> mythical herd immunity percentage of 75%. 1 million, 2 million, 3
>>> million more dead people? From a disease that is easily prevented
>>> with an available vaccine. Is that winning?
>>
>> Except it's not prevented by the available vaccine. CDC agrees that
>> vaccinated people can and do become infected and do spread the disease.
>> The "mythical" herd immunity vaccination threshold is indeed mythical,
>> there is no reason to think that covid would vanish even at 100%
>> vaccination.
>>
>> Successful human vaccines, such as smallpox, polio, measles, mumps,
>> pertussis, &c produce "sterilizing immunity". The vaccinated do not
>> become infected.
>
>Almost true. World-wide polio eradication is on the way without
>"sterilizing immunity"; a spread reduction factor of 80-90% seems to be
>sufficient here. For COVID, we're takling about spread reduction
>factors somewhere between 50% and 90%.
>
>Optimists say that spread reduction of 70% and immunity of 90% might be
>"just good enough" for herd immunity.
>
>Rolf

I think that the real question is, "What is the alternative"?

Adopt whatever safeguards are currently available in an effort to
limit the disease?

Just ignore the whole situation and let the disease run it's course?

Is there another alternative?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 10/5/2021 7:17 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 10/5/2021 4:27 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> jbeattie <jbeattie57@msn.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 8:44:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 10/5/2021 10:15 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 9:28:05 AM UTC-5, sms
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now that companies are firing employees that refuse
>>>>>>> to get vaccinated,
>>>>>>> and universities are expelling students that refuse
>>>>>>> to get vaccinated
>>>>>>> (other than those that have a valid medical reason
>>>>>>> for refusing), the
>>>>>>> percentages will start to rise in the U.S..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe, possibly, if we are really lucky. BUT, even if
>>>>>> the vaccination
>>>>>> rises due to the threats, it will be a miniscule
>>>>>> minimal amount. 0.1%
>>>>>> each month or so. As you state we are at 56.3% fully
>>>>>> vaccinated now.
>>>>>> If my 0.1% is accurate, it will take 15 years 7 months
>>>>>> to reach that
>>>>>> mythical herd immunity percentage of 75%. 1 million, 2
>>>>>> million, 3
>>>>>> million more dead people? From a disease that is
>>>>>> easily prevented
>>>>>> with an available vaccine. Is that winning?
>>>>>
>>>>> Except it's not prevented by the available vaccine. CDC
>>>>> agrees that
>>>>> vaccinated people can and do become infected and do
>>>>> spread the disease.
>>>>> The "mythical" herd immunity vaccination threshold is
>>>>> indeed mythical,
>>>>> there is no reason to think that covid would vanish
>>>>> even at 100%
>>>>> vaccination.
>>>>>
>>>>> Successful human vaccines, such as smallpox, polio,
>>>>> measles, mumps,
>>>>> pertussis, &c produce "sterilizing immunity". The
>>>>> vaccinated do not
>>>>> become infected. The available covid vaccines do not
>>>>> work this way and
>>>>> hence are not comparable. Leaky vaccines like those for
>>>>> covid allow the
>>>>> virus to continue to evolve among the vaccinated, which
>>>>> has given rise
>>>>> to at least one remarkably lethal viral disease in
>>>>> chickens. Do a
>>>>> search for "Marek's disease".
>>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>> Which is why I have avoided calling the Pfizer/Moderna mRNA
>>>> products 'vaccine'. J&J is an actual vaccine of attenuated
>>>> virus.
>>>>
>>>> The mRNA jab promotes production of a blood-borne antibody.
>>>> An antibody, one of the body's defenses, but only one.
>>>> This is an important aspect of human immune response and is
>>>> effective for the (sometimes fatal)
>>>> vascular/cardiac/respiratory damage caused by a combination
>>>> of the virus and cysteine response. It does not promote
>>>> production of respiratory/mucosa antibodies (found in
>>>> 'natural' immunity) so you are exactly right. The mRNA shot
>>>> will likely keep you from dying but will not stop you from
>>>> contracting or spreading the CCP Wuhan product.
>>>
>>> "Natural immunity" isn't faring that well.
>>> https://news.yale.edu/2021/10/01/unvaccinated-reinfection-sars-cov-2-likely-study-finds
>>>
>>> Natural immunity and a vaccine appear to be the ticket,
>>> although one
>>> would prefer to skip being sick to start with. No
>>> vaccine is 100% and
>>> many are not effective forever. Flu vaccines are
>>> notoriously
>>> ineffective, but we still take them, and they prevent
>>> some infections.
>>
>> Who is this "we"? Patients in the US are able to choose
>> whether to get
>> a flu shot or not. They should be able to make a choice
>> with respect to
>> covid as well.
>
> And dammit, Mary Mallon* should have been allowed to work as
> a cook! Freedom!
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon
>
> (* AKA Typhoid Mary)
>
>

I understand your meaning but Typhoid Mary was quarantined
on an island well before the first typhus vaccine (Poland, 1933)

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 4:39:57 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 1:27:18 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
> > jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> writes:
> >
> > > On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 8:44:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> On 10/5/2021 10:15 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> > >> > "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
> > >> >
> > >> >> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 9:28:05 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Now that companies are firing employees that refuse to get vaccinated,
> > >> >>> and universities are expelling students that refuse to get vaccinated
> > >> >>> (other than those that have a valid medical reason for refusing), the
> > >> >>> percentages will start to rise in the U.S..
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Maybe, possibly, if we are really lucky. BUT, even if the vaccination
> > >> >> rises due to the threats, it will be a miniscule minimal amount. 0.1%
> > >> >> each month or so. As you state we are at 56.3% fully vaccinated now.
> > >> >> If my 0.1% is accurate, it will take 15 years 7 months to reach that
> > >> >> mythical herd immunity percentage of 75%. 1 million, 2 million, 3
> > >> >> million more dead people? From a disease that is easily prevented
> > >> >> with an available vaccine. Is that winning?
> > >> >
> > >> > Except it's not prevented by the available vaccine. CDC agrees that
> > >> > vaccinated people can and do become infected and do spread the disease.
> > >> > The "mythical" herd immunity vaccination threshold is indeed mythical,
> > >> > there is no reason to think that covid would vanish even at 100%
> > >> > vaccination.
> > >> >
> > >> > Successful human vaccines, such as smallpox, polio, measles, mumps,
> > >> > pertussis, &c produce "sterilizing immunity". The vaccinated do not
> > >> > become infected. The available covid vaccines do not work this way and
> > >> > hence are not comparable. Leaky vaccines like those for covid allow the
> > >> > virus to continue to evolve among the vaccinated, which has given rise
> > >> > to at least one remarkably lethal viral disease in chickens. Do a
> > >> > search for "Marek's disease".
> > >> >
> > >> +1
> > >> Which is why I have avoided calling the Pfizer/Moderna mRNA
> > >> products 'vaccine'. J&J is an actual vaccine of attenuated
> > >> virus.
> > >>
> > >> The mRNA jab promotes production of a blood-borne antibody.
> > >> An antibody, one of the body's defenses, but only one.
> > >> This is an important aspect of human immune response and is
> > >> effective for the (sometimes fatal)
> > >> vascular/cardiac/respiratory damage caused by a combination
> > >> of the virus and cysteine response. It does not promote
> > >> production of respiratory/mucosa antibodies (found in
> > >> 'natural' immunity) so you are exactly right. The mRNA shot
> > >> will likely keep you from dying but will not stop you from
> > >> contracting or spreading the CCP Wuhan product.
> > >
> > > "Natural immunity" isn't faring that well.
> > > https://news.yale.edu/2021/10/01/unvaccinated-reinfection-sars-cov-2-likely-study-finds
> > > Natural immunity and a vaccine appear to be the ticket, although one
> > > would prefer to skip being sick to start with. No vaccine is 100% and
> > > many are not effective forever. Flu vaccines are notoriously
> > > ineffective, but we still take them, and they prevent some infections..
> > Who is this "we"? Patients in the US are able to choose whether to get
> > a flu shot or not. They should be able to make a choice with respect to
> > covid as well. For healthy young people the covid vaccine is almost
> > certainly more dangerous, (albeit fairly safe), than infection with covid.
> Almost certainly? CDC says that vaccines are safer for young people than the disease, but maybe they are lying to us because they want to kill young people. Personally, I think we should be out to kill the old people to reduce the pressure on the SS/Medicare trusts.

I read Radey's comments too and wondered. I've seen lots of stories about kids catching Covid and some of them dying. Especially in Mississippi and other anti vaccine Republican states that outlaw masks. But I guess they are only kids so what, who cares. They can't vote and give me money so...

> > As for natural immunity, here's a paper based on Israeli data that
> > claims considerably more protection from natural immunity than from
> > vaccination:
> >
> > https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1
> >
> > You might note that Israel was and is at the forefront in coercing their
> > citizens into covid vaccination. It does not seem to have gone very
> > well; last I read they were considering a mandate for boooster #2 (shot
> > #4).
> The Israel study showed that natural immunity and at least one dose of vaccine provided the best immunity. That's why I mentioned it. Whether their observational retrospective study is accurate is beyond my expertise. https://www.factcheck.org/2021/09/scicheck-instagram-post-missing-context-about-israeli-study-on-covid-19-natural-immunity/ The Yale study uses a different methodology, and I haven't read it completely, but it is peer reviewed and in Lancet. The bottom line for both studies is that getting poked is a plus, whether you're previously infected or not.
>
> -- Jay Beattie.

Yes even that evil sinister Dr. Fauci and the incompetent (under Trump) CDC say to get a vaccine even if you recovered from Covid.
https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaccine-immunity/fact-check-cdc-recommends-covid-19-vaccine-even-after-recovering-from-the-virus-idUSL1N2QH2HP

On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 5:16:59 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 2:39:57 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 1:27:18 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
> > > jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> writes:
> > >
> > > > On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 8:44:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > >> On 10/5/2021 10:15 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> > > >> > "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
> > > >> >
> > > >> >> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 9:28:05 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> Now that companies are firing employees that refuse to get vaccinated,
> > > >> >>> and universities are expelling students that refuse to get vaccinated
> > > >> >>> (other than those that have a valid medical reason for refusing), the
> > > >> >>> percentages will start to rise in the U.S..
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Maybe, possibly, if we are really lucky. BUT, even if the vaccination
> > > >> >> rises due to the threats, it will be a miniscule minimal amount.. 0.1%
> > > >> >> each month or so. As you state we are at 56.3% fully vaccinated now.
> > > >> >> If my 0.1% is accurate, it will take 15 years 7 months to reach that
> > > >> >> mythical herd immunity percentage of 75%. 1 million, 2 million, 3
> > > >> >> million more dead people? From a disease that is easily prevented
> > > >> >> with an available vaccine. Is that winning?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Except it's not prevented by the available vaccine. CDC agrees that
> > > >> > vaccinated people can and do become infected and do spread the disease.
> > > >> > The "mythical" herd immunity vaccination threshold is indeed mythical,
> > > >> > there is no reason to think that covid would vanish even at 100%
> > > >> > vaccination.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Successful human vaccines, such as smallpox, polio, measles, mumps,
> > > >> > pertussis, &c produce "sterilizing immunity". The vaccinated do not
> > > >> > become infected. The available covid vaccines do not work this way and
> > > >> > hence are not comparable. Leaky vaccines like those for covid allow the
> > > >> > virus to continue to evolve among the vaccinated, which has given rise
> > > >> > to at least one remarkably lethal viral disease in chickens. Do a
> > > >> > search for "Marek's disease".
> > > >> >
> > > >> +1
> > > >> Which is why I have avoided calling the Pfizer/Moderna mRNA
> > > >> products 'vaccine'. J&J is an actual vaccine of attenuated
> > > >> virus.
> > > >>
> > > >> The mRNA jab promotes production of a blood-borne antibody.
> > > >> An antibody, one of the body's defenses, but only one.
> > > >> This is an important aspect of human immune response and is
> > > >> effective for the (sometimes fatal)
> > > >> vascular/cardiac/respiratory damage caused by a combination
> > > >> of the virus and cysteine response. It does not promote
> > > >> production of respiratory/mucosa antibodies (found in
> > > >> 'natural' immunity) so you are exactly right. The mRNA shot
> > > >> will likely keep you from dying but will not stop you from
> > > >> contracting or spreading the CCP Wuhan product.
> > > >
> > > > "Natural immunity" isn't faring that well.
> > > > https://news.yale.edu/2021/10/01/unvaccinated-reinfection-sars-cov-2-likely-study-finds
> > > > Natural immunity and a vaccine appear to be the ticket, although one
> > > > would prefer to skip being sick to start with. No vaccine is 100% and
> > > > many are not effective forever. Flu vaccines are notoriously
> > > > ineffective, but we still take them, and they prevent some infections.
> > > Who is this "we"? Patients in the US are able to choose whether to get
> > > a flu shot or not. They should be able to make a choice with respect to
> > > covid as well. For healthy young people the covid vaccine is almost
> > > certainly more dangerous, (albeit fairly safe), than infection with covid.
> > Almost certainly? CDC says that vaccines are safer for young people than the disease, but maybe they are lying to us because they want to kill young people. Personally, I think we should be out to kill the old people to reduce the pressure on the SS/Medicare trusts.
> > > As for natural immunity, here's a paper based on Israeli data that
> > > claims considerably more protection from natural immunity than from
> > > vaccination:
> > >
> > > https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1
> > >
> > > You might note that Israel was and is at the forefront in coercing their
> > > citizens into covid vaccination. It does not seem to have gone very
> > > well; last I read they were considering a mandate for boooster #2 (shot
> > > #4).
> > The Israel study showed that natural immunity and at least one dose of vaccine provided the best immunity. That's why I mentioned it. Whether their observational retrospective study is accurate is beyond my expertise. https://www.factcheck.org/2021/09/scicheck-instagram-post-missing-context-about-israeli-study-on-covid-19-natural-immunity/ The Yale study uses a different methodology, and I haven't read it completely, but it is peer reviewed and in Lancet. The bottom line for both studies is that getting poked is a plus, whether you're previously infected or not.
> >
> > -- Jay Beattie.
> Jay, what in the hell does the CDC know about vaccines? Where did you get the idea that anyone other than Fauci might say that?

The CDC is a Federal government bureau/agency called Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Seems kind of obvious that they should know something about vaccines to diseases caused by viruses. I assume the Department of Agriculture knows something about farming. Maybe. Department of Justice knows something about laws. Education Department knows something about schools. Again maybe. I think under Betsy DeVos it didn't know squat. NASA knows something about space. Defense Department knows something about the military.

>
> If you want to vaccinate yourself go right ahead. Stop your belief that Biden or any other government has the authority to force people to do so.

Tommy I'm positive you wrote in this forum that you were vaccinated. Awhile ago. Why did you get the Covid vaccine if you are now saying its evil and will kill you? Were you stupid and a following sheep back when you got vaccinated? But now you are educated by Fox and Proud Boys and Jessica Biel? Vaccines evil!!!!!!!!!! sayeth Tommy.

>
> I don't know what the hell is going on in your head but it sure is slipping harder and harder to the left.

On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 7:36:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/5/2021 7:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 10/5/2021 4:29 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
> >>
> >>> On 10/5/2021 11:15 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Successful human vaccines, such as smallpox, polio,
> >>>> measles, mumps,
> >>>> pertussis, &c produce "sterilizing immunity". The
> >>>> vaccinated do not
> >>>> become infected. The available covid vaccines do not
> >>>> work this way and
> >>>> hence are not comparable.
> >>>
> >>> Sorry to disagree with you, but I have a close and
> >>> beloved family
> >>> member who nearly died from a malady against which he was
> >>> vaccinated.
> >>>
> >>> Also, a few years ago I had an extremely scary bronchial
> >>> problem. My
> >>> primary care physician was afraid I had whooping cough,
> >>> even though we
> >>> both knew I had been vaccinated against it. He said
> >>> post-vaccination
> >>> whooping cough is uncommon, but a definite possibility.
> >>> (Fortunately,
> >>> that was not my problem.)
> >>>
> >>> Then there are the many cases of post-vaccination
> >>> shingles, and many
> >>> other diseases. These things happen. Vaccines are not as
> >>> reliable as
> >>> light switches.
> >>
> >> I agree that no vaccine is 100% effective. However the
> >> covid vaccines
> >> are remarkably bad compared to other widely prescribed,
> >> let alone
> >> mandated, vaccines.
> >
> > So instead, the strategy should have been... what? We've
> > heard here that it certainly shouldn't include masks or any
> > restrictions affecting any business.
> >
> > Perhaps vitamin D?
> >
> >
> A great body of research, both lab and clinical, plus an
> ever growing pile of opinion pieces by MDs, indicates that
> various therapies (including, yes, Vitamin D where the
> patient is deficient, a common malady of the aged) are
> effective and safe. The incessant irrational and yes
> pernicious attacks on each and every therapy (from common,
> safe, very old drugs such as hydrochloroquine to monoclonal
> antibodies such as Regeneron) is mystifying. Especially
> mystifying in light of the known serious deficiencies of the
> two mRNA shots.

??????? What serious deficiencies are there with the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines? I'm not aware of any. 180 million have been given in the USA. I'm pretty sure if millions or even hundreds of thousands of people were dying or getting seriously sick from the vaccine, we would have heard the stories. Can't keep that hidden.

As for hydrochloroquine and monoclonal antibodies, they are treatments for Covid. And I am not sure there has been definitive tests on hydro to prove it really works on Covid or not. The antibodies do work. But these are TREATMENTS for Covid. Vaccines PREVENT Covid. Its always better to take a really cheap easy simple vaccine to PREVENT a disease than it is to use an expensive complicated TREATMENT for a disease. I'm sure there are many marvelous medical ways to treat and cure lung and liver cancer. But isn't it better to just not smoke and not drink to prevent lung and liver cancer?

>
> As My Shouman noted earlier, "it's hard to account for this
> in a charitable manner." to which I added my +1. At some
> point a less than charitable conclusion remains after every
> other case has been disproved.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 7:58:19 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 17:41:50 +0200, Rolf Mantel <ne...@hartig-mantel.de>
> wrote:
> >Am 05.10.2021 um 17:15 schrieb Radey Shouman:
> >> "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>
> >>> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 9:28:05 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Now that companies are firing employees that refuse to get vaccinated,
> >>>> and universities are expelling students that refuse to get vaccinated
> >>>> (other than those that have a valid medical reason for refusing), the
> >>>> percentages will start to rise in the U.S..
> >>>
> >>> Maybe, possibly, if we are really lucky. BUT, even if the vaccination
> >>> rises due to the threats, it will be a miniscule minimal amount. 0.1%
> >>> each month or so. As you state we are at 56.3% fully vaccinated now.
> >>> If my 0.1% is accurate, it will take 15 years 7 months to reach that
> >>> mythical herd immunity percentage of 75%. 1 million, 2 million, 3
> >>> million more dead people? From a disease that is easily prevented
> >>> with an available vaccine. Is that winning?
> >>
> >> Except it's not prevented by the available vaccine. CDC agrees that
> >> vaccinated people can and do become infected and do spread the disease.
> >> The "mythical" herd immunity vaccination threshold is indeed mythical,
> >> there is no reason to think that covid would vanish even at 100%
> >> vaccination.
> >>
> >> Successful human vaccines, such as smallpox, polio, measles, mumps,
> >> pertussis, &c produce "sterilizing immunity". The vaccinated do not
> >> become infected.
> >
> >Almost true. World-wide polio eradication is on the way without
> >"sterilizing immunity"; a spread reduction factor of 80-90% seems to be
> >sufficient here. For COVID, we're takling about spread reduction
> >factors somewhere between 50% and 90%.
> >
> >Optimists say that spread reduction of 70% and immunity of 90% might be
> >"just good enough" for herd immunity.
> >
> >Rolf
> I think that the real question is, "What is the alternative"?
>
> Adopt whatever safeguards are currently available in an effort to
> limit the disease?
>
> Just ignore the whole situation and let the disease run it's course?
>
> Is there another alternative?
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

I don't know, but it seems to me your first alternative:

> Adopt whatever safeguards are currently available in an effort to
> limit the disease?

Is the right one to choose.

On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 21:03:25 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 7:36:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 10/5/2021 7:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > On 10/5/2021 4:29 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> >> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>> >>
>> >>> On 10/5/2021 11:15 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Successful human vaccines, such as smallpox, polio,
>> >>>> measles, mumps,
>> >>>> pertussis, &c produce "sterilizing immunity". The
>> >>>> vaccinated do not
>> >>>> become infected. The available covid vaccines do not
>> >>>> work this way and
>> >>>> hence are not comparable.
>> >>>
>> >>> Sorry to disagree with you, but I have a close and
>> >>> beloved family
>> >>> member who nearly died from a malady against which he was
>> >>> vaccinated.
>> >>>
>> >>> Also, a few years ago I had an extremely scary bronchial
>> >>> problem. My
>> >>> primary care physician was afraid I had whooping cough,
>> >>> even though we
>> >>> both knew I had been vaccinated against it. He said
>> >>> post-vaccination
>> >>> whooping cough is uncommon, but a definite possibility.
>> >>> (Fortunately,
>> >>> that was not my problem.)
>> >>>
>> >>> Then there are the many cases of post-vaccination
>> >>> shingles, and many
>> >>> other diseases. These things happen. Vaccines are not as
>> >>> reliable as
>> >>> light switches.
>> >>
>> >> I agree that no vaccine is 100% effective. However the
>> >> covid vaccines
>> >> are remarkably bad compared to other widely prescribed,
>> >> let alone
>> >> mandated, vaccines.
>> >
>> > So instead, the strategy should have been... what? We've
>> > heard here that it certainly shouldn't include masks or any
>> > restrictions affecting any business.
>> >
>> > Perhaps vitamin D?
>> >
>> >
>> A great body of research, both lab and clinical, plus an
>> ever growing pile of opinion pieces by MDs, indicates that
>> various therapies (including, yes, Vitamin D where the
>> patient is deficient, a common malady of the aged) are
>> effective and safe. The incessant irrational and yes
>> pernicious attacks on each and every therapy (from common,
>> safe, very old drugs such as hydrochloroquine to monoclonal
>> antibodies such as Regeneron) is mystifying. Especially
>> mystifying in light of the known serious deficiencies of the
>> two mRNA shots.
>
>??????? What serious deficiencies are there with the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines? I'm not aware of any. 180 million have been given in the USA. I'm pretty sure if millions or even hundreds of thousands of people were dying or getting seriously sick from the vaccine, we would have heard the stories. Can't keep that hidden.
>
Actually I replied to a friends letter, regarding immunization, this
morning and researched some numbers and found that there were, as of 2
Oct 2021 394,690,000 vaccination shots given in the U.S.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/cumulative-covid-vaccinations?country=BRA~CHN~DEU~IND~IDN~MEX~TUR~USA
and another site
https://openvaers.com/covid-data
has it that there have been 752,801 Adverse Events reported ranging
from Doctor's Office Visit to Deaths.
Try dividing 752,801 by 394,690,000. Or even more informative try the
number of deaths reported , 15,937, divided by total shots given.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 5:00:03 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 8:44:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 10/5/2021 10:15 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> > > "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
> > >
> > >> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 9:28:05 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Now that companies are firing employees that refuse to get vaccinated,
> > >>> and universities are expelling students that refuse to get vaccinated
> > >>> (other than those that have a valid medical reason for refusing), the
> > >>> percentages will start to rise in the U.S..
> > >>
> > >> Maybe, possibly, if we are really lucky. BUT, even if the vaccination
> > >> rises due to the threats, it will be a miniscule minimal amount. 0.1%
> > >> each month or so. As you state we are at 56.3% fully vaccinated now.
> > >> If my 0.1% is accurate, it will take 15 years 7 months to reach that
> > >> mythical herd immunity percentage of 75%. 1 million, 2 million, 3
> > >> million more dead people? From a disease that is easily prevented
> > >> with an available vaccine. Is that winning?
> > >
> > > Except it's not prevented by the available vaccine. CDC agrees that
> > > vaccinated people can and do become infected and do spread the disease.
> > > The "mythical" herd immunity vaccination threshold is indeed mythical,
> > > there is no reason to think that covid would vanish even at 100%
> > > vaccination.
> > >
> > > Successful human vaccines, such as smallpox, polio, measles, mumps,
> > > pertussis, &c produce "sterilizing immunity". The vaccinated do not
> > > become infected. The available covid vaccines do not work this way and
> > > hence are not comparable. Leaky vaccines like those for covid allow the
> > > virus to continue to evolve among the vaccinated, which has given rise
> > > to at least one remarkably lethal viral disease in chickens. Do a
> > > search for "Marek's disease".
> > >
> > +1
> > Which is why I have avoided calling the Pfizer/Moderna mRNA
> > products 'vaccine'. J&J is an actual vaccine of attenuated
> > virus.
> >
> > The mRNA jab promotes production of a blood-borne antibody.
> > An antibody, one of the body's defenses, but only one.
> > This is an important aspect of human immune response and is
> > effective for the (sometimes fatal)
> > vascular/cardiac/respiratory damage caused by a combination
> > of the virus and cysteine response. It does not promote
> > production of respiratory/mucosa antibodies (found in
> > 'natural' immunity) so you are exactly right. The mRNA shot
> > will likely keep you from dying but will not stop you from
> > contracting or spreading the CCP Wuhan product.
> "Natural immunity" isn't faring that well. https://news.yale.edu/2021/10/01/unvaccinated-reinfection-sars-cov-2-likely-study-finds Natural immunity and a vaccine appear to be the ticket, although one would prefer to skip being sick to start with. No vaccine is 100% and many are not effective forever. Flu vaccines are notoriously ineffective, but we still take them, and they prevent some infections.
>
> -- Jay Beattie.
..
Flu vaccines, plural, is right. They make a new cocktail of flu vaccines every year to deal with the most virulent of the flu strains found that year. Even then it is touch and go whether they miss something easily spread and damaging or even lethal. 1918 hasn't gone away; we just manage to keep it slumbering. If we ever manage to handle COVID that well, that will be a lot better than the current rolling lockdowns and their economic damage.

Andre Jute
Balance is everything, especially on the high wire of economics.

On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 9:29:23 PM UTC+1, Radey Shouman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>
> > On 10/5/2021 11:15 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>
> >> Successful human vaccines, such as smallpox, polio, measles, mumps,
> >> pertussis, &c produce "sterilizing immunity". The vaccinated do not
> >> become infected. The available covid vaccines do not work this way and
> >> hence are not comparable.
> >
> > Sorry to disagree with you, but I have a close and beloved family
> > member who nearly died from a malady against which he was vaccinated.
> >
> > Also, a few years ago I had an extremely scary bronchial problem. My
> > primary care physician was afraid I had whooping cough, even though we
> > both knew I had been vaccinated against it. He said post-vaccination
> > whooping cough is uncommon, but a definite possibility. (Fortunately,
> > that was not my problem.)
> >
> > Then there are the many cases of post-vaccination shingles, and many
> > other diseases. These things happen. Vaccines are not as reliable as
> > light switches.
> I agree that no vaccine is 100% effective. However the covid vaccines
> are remarkably bad compared to other widely prescribed, let alone
> mandated, vaccines.

+1.

See my note to Jay about the annual flu vaccine which on balance is considered a success. -- AJ

On 10/5/2021 11:03 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 7:36:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 10/5/2021 7:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 10/5/2021 4:29 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 10/5/2021 11:15 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Successful human vaccines, such as smallpox, polio,
>>>>>> measles, mumps,
>>>>>> pertussis, &c produce "sterilizing immunity". The
>>>>>> vaccinated do not
>>>>>> become infected. The available covid vaccines do not
>>>>>> work this way and
>>>>>> hence are not comparable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry to disagree with you, but I have a close and
>>>>> beloved family
>>>>> member who nearly died from a malady against which he was
>>>>> vaccinated.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, a few years ago I had an extremely scary bronchial
>>>>> problem. My
>>>>> primary care physician was afraid I had whooping cough,
>>>>> even though we
>>>>> both knew I had been vaccinated against it. He said
>>>>> post-vaccination
>>>>> whooping cough is uncommon, but a definite possibility.
>>>>> (Fortunately,
>>>>> that was not my problem.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Then there are the many cases of post-vaccination
>>>>> shingles, and many
>>>>> other diseases. These things happen. Vaccines are not as
>>>>> reliable as
>>>>> light switches.
>>>>
>>>> I agree that no vaccine is 100% effective. However the
>>>> covid vaccines
>>>> are remarkably bad compared to other widely prescribed,
>>>> let alone
>>>> mandated, vaccines.
>>>
>>> So instead, the strategy should have been... what? We've
>>> heard here that it certainly shouldn't include masks or any
>>> restrictions affecting any business.
>>>
>>> Perhaps vitamin D?
>>>
>>>
>> A great body of research, both lab and clinical, plus an
>> ever growing pile of opinion pieces by MDs, indicates that
>> various therapies (including, yes, Vitamin D where the
>> patient is deficient, a common malady of the aged) are
>> effective and safe. The incessant irrational and yes
>> pernicious attacks on each and every therapy (from common,
>> safe, very old drugs such as hydrochloroquine to monoclonal
>> antibodies such as Regeneron) is mystifying. Especially
>> mystifying in light of the known serious deficiencies of the
>> two mRNA shots.
>
> ??????? What serious deficiencies are there with the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines? I'm not aware of any. 180 million have been given in the USA. I'm pretty sure if millions or even hundreds of thousands of people were dying or getting seriously sick from the vaccine, we would have heard the stories. Can't keep that hidden.
>
> As for hydrochloroquine and monoclonal antibodies, they are treatments for Covid. And I am not sure there has been definitive tests on hydro to prove it really works on Covid or not. The antibodies do work. But these are TREATMENTS for Covid. Vaccines PREVENT Covid. Its always better to take a really cheap easy simple vaccine to PREVENT a disease than it is to use an expensive complicated TREATMENT for a disease. I'm sure there are many marvelous medical ways to treat and cure lung and liver cancer. But isn't it better to just not smoke and not drink to prevent lung and liver cancer?
>
>
>
>
>
> What serious deficiencies
>
>>
>> As My Shouman noted earlier, "it's hard to account for this
>> in a charitable manner." to which I added my +1. At some
>> point a less than charitable conclusion remains after every
>> other case has been disproved.> What serious deficiencies

> "What serious deficiencies" ?

As discussed, endlessly both here and in the popular science
press for months, the mRNA shots incite one antibody which
is very effective in preventing the typical arterial, heart
and lung damage which can be fatal. This is a good thing.
They are also the first two ever in history things of this
type. That's remarkable and deserves credit.

They do not, however replicate the many other defenses
(several types of T- and B-cells) humans muster (some known,
probably others yet unknown) including notably
respiratory/mucus antibodies such that with either mRNA shot
you probably will not die (positive effect) but you'll still
probably become reinfected and contagious (not so good).

Tangentially interesting article:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-08-differences-covid-antibody-responses-emerge.html

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 5:17:42 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 10/5/2021 4:27 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> > jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> writes:
> >
> >> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 8:44:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> On 10/5/2021 10:15 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>>> "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 9:28:05 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Now that companies are firing employees that refuse to get vaccinated,
> >>>>>> and universities are expelling students that refuse to get vaccinated
> >>>>>> (other than those that have a valid medical reason for refusing), the
> >>>>>> percentages will start to rise in the U.S..
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Maybe, possibly, if we are really lucky. BUT, even if the vaccination
> >>>>> rises due to the threats, it will be a miniscule minimal amount. 0.1%
> >>>>> each month or so. As you state we are at 56.3% fully vaccinated now.
> >>>>> If my 0.1% is accurate, it will take 15 years 7 months to reach that
> >>>>> mythical herd immunity percentage of 75%. 1 million, 2 million, 3
> >>>>> million more dead people? From a disease that is easily prevented
> >>>>> with an available vaccine. Is that winning?
> >>>>
> >>>> Except it's not prevented by the available vaccine. CDC agrees that
> >>>> vaccinated people can and do become infected and do spread the disease.
> >>>> The "mythical" herd immunity vaccination threshold is indeed mythical,
> >>>> there is no reason to think that covid would vanish even at 100%
> >>>> vaccination.
> >>>>
> >>>> Successful human vaccines, such as smallpox, polio, measles, mumps,
> >>>> pertussis, &c produce "sterilizing immunity". The vaccinated do not
> >>>> become infected. The available covid vaccines do not work this way and
> >>>> hence are not comparable. Leaky vaccines like those for covid allow the
> >>>> virus to continue to evolve among the vaccinated, which has given rise
> >>>> to at least one remarkably lethal viral disease in chickens. Do a
> >>>> search for "Marek's disease".
> >>>>
> >>> +1
> >>> Which is why I have avoided calling the Pfizer/Moderna mRNA
> >>> products 'vaccine'. J&J is an actual vaccine of attenuated
> >>> virus.
> >>>
> >>> The mRNA jab promotes production of a blood-borne antibody.
> >>> An antibody, one of the body's defenses, but only one.
> >>> This is an important aspect of human immune response and is
> >>> effective for the (sometimes fatal)
> >>> vascular/cardiac/respiratory damage caused by a combination
> >>> of the virus and cysteine response. It does not promote
> >>> production of respiratory/mucosa antibodies (found in
> >>> 'natural' immunity) so you are exactly right. The mRNA shot
> >>> will likely keep you from dying but will not stop you from
> >>> contracting or spreading the CCP Wuhan product.
> >>
> >> "Natural immunity" isn't faring that well.
> >> https://news.yale.edu/2021/10/01/unvaccinated-reinfection-sars-cov-2-likely-study-finds
> >> Natural immunity and a vaccine appear to be the ticket, although one
> >> would prefer to skip being sick to start with. No vaccine is 100% and
> >> many are not effective forever. Flu vaccines are notoriously
> >> ineffective, but we still take them, and they prevent some infections.
> >
> > Who is this "we"? Patients in the US are able to choose whether to get
> > a flu shot or not. They should be able to make a choice with respect to
> > covid as well.
> And dammit, Mary Mallon* should have been allowed to work as a cook!
> Freedom!
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon
>
> (* AKA Typhoid Mary)

Frank, you're completely gone now. What vaccine did they have during the Typhoid pandemic? The CDC says that AT LEAST 75% of the population is vaccinated. HOW do you spread anything if these vaccinations are actually vaccinations?

On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 5:20:37 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 10/5/2021 4:29 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> > Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
> >
> >> On 10/5/2021 11:15 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Successful human vaccines, such as smallpox, polio, measles, mumps,
> >>> pertussis, &c produce "sterilizing immunity". The vaccinated do not
> >>> become infected. The available covid vaccines do not work this way and
> >>> hence are not comparable.
> >>
> >> Sorry to disagree with you, but I have a close and beloved family
> >> member who nearly died from a malady against which he was vaccinated.
> >>
> >> Also, a few years ago I had an extremely scary bronchial problem. My
> >> primary care physician was afraid I had whooping cough, even though we
> >> both knew I had been vaccinated against it. He said post-vaccination
> >> whooping cough is uncommon, but a definite possibility. (Fortunately,
> >> that was not my problem.)
> >>
> >> Then there are the many cases of post-vaccination shingles, and many
> >> other diseases. These things happen. Vaccines are not as reliable as
> >> light switches.
> >
> > I agree that no vaccine is 100% effective. However the covid vaccines
> > are remarkably bad compared to other widely prescribed, let alone
> > mandated, vaccines.
> So instead, the strategy should have been... what? We've heard here that
> it certainly shouldn't include masks or any restrictions affecting any
> business.
>
> Perhaps vitamin D?

Though we can't trust a single thing you say I will ask you - do YOU personally know anyone that died from covid-19? If so, what was their age and health condition?

On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 5:49:15 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>
>
> Yes I hear your argument about the surgical masks, but Tommy, I have
> been treated by a surgeon in, lets see, The US Air Force, several
> times, Japan, Vietnam, Indonesia, Thailand and Singapore and in every
> case the sturgeon wore a mask. But you tell us that is unnecessary?
>
> And, you tell us that there have hardly been any Covid deaths at all
> yet the CDC lists something like 725,000 deaths due to the disease.
> And, it might be noted that the Dr Fauci, the Big Boss, is paid
> something like a half a million dollars a year while you seem to be
> squeaking by on the government dole and whatever you can scrounge
> buying second hand junk on the Internet.
>
> Why don't you call up Biden and tell him how you can do Fauci's so
> much cheaper? You can stand there and sing the song about "Leaving on
> a jet plane" while you are waiting for the transportation to arrive.
>
> buffoon - a rude or vulgar fool, a person who amuses others by
> ridiculous behavior.
I find it interesting that you simply do not answer the facts, you simply repeat your stupid argument, Maybe you should pal up with Jay and quote profits of a mortuary company being positive as proof that people died rather than the profits of the industry as a whole.

IF there were no respiratory disease deaths above normal, there WERE no covid deaths. There WERE deaths above normal and they are MARKED as circulatory disease deaths. And as I said, these were caused by Fauci's lockdowns. And THEY were nowhere near 10000 deaths let alone 700,000. SARS-Cov-2 has NEVER even been proven to exist and you're assigning 700,000 deaths to it. There is certainly a missing link in your chain.

Here is the chart FROM the CDC themselves showing that medical facilities were reporting anything and everything as covid deaths for the $50,000 per head bounty. IF these covid deaths existed why was there no growth in total normal deaths? https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/04102020/nchs-data.html

You know, any normal person saying what you are over and over contrary to evidence would be embarrassed, but not John.

On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 8:34:23 PM UTC-7, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 4:39:57 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 1:27:18 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
> > > jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> writes:
> > >
> > > > On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 8:44:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > >> On 10/5/2021 10:15 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> > > >> > "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
> > > >> >
> > > >> >> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 9:28:05 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> Now that companies are firing employees that refuse to get vaccinated,
> > > >> >>> and universities are expelling students that refuse to get vaccinated
> > > >> >>> (other than those that have a valid medical reason for refusing), the
> > > >> >>> percentages will start to rise in the U.S..
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Maybe, possibly, if we are really lucky. BUT, even if the vaccination
> > > >> >> rises due to the threats, it will be a miniscule minimal amount.. 0.1%
> > > >> >> each month or so. As you state we are at 56.3% fully vaccinated now.
> > > >> >> If my 0.1% is accurate, it will take 15 years 7 months to reach that
> > > >> >> mythical herd immunity percentage of 75%. 1 million, 2 million, 3
> > > >> >> million more dead people? From a disease that is easily prevented
> > > >> >> with an available vaccine. Is that winning?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Except it's not prevented by the available vaccine. CDC agrees that
> > > >> > vaccinated people can and do become infected and do spread the disease.
> > > >> > The "mythical" herd immunity vaccination threshold is indeed mythical,
> > > >> > there is no reason to think that covid would vanish even at 100%
> > > >> > vaccination.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Successful human vaccines, such as smallpox, polio, measles, mumps,
> > > >> > pertussis, &c produce "sterilizing immunity". The vaccinated do not
> > > >> > become infected. The available covid vaccines do not work this way and
> > > >> > hence are not comparable. Leaky vaccines like those for covid allow the
> > > >> > virus to continue to evolve among the vaccinated, which has given rise
> > > >> > to at least one remarkably lethal viral disease in chickens. Do a
> > > >> > search for "Marek's disease".
> > > >> >
> > > >> +1
> > > >> Which is why I have avoided calling the Pfizer/Moderna mRNA
> > > >> products 'vaccine'. J&J is an actual vaccine of attenuated
> > > >> virus.
> > > >>
> > > >> The mRNA jab promotes production of a blood-borne antibody.
> > > >> An antibody, one of the body's defenses, but only one.
> > > >> This is an important aspect of human immune response and is
> > > >> effective for the (sometimes fatal)
> > > >> vascular/cardiac/respiratory damage caused by a combination
> > > >> of the virus and cysteine response. It does not promote
> > > >> production of respiratory/mucosa antibodies (found in
> > > >> 'natural' immunity) so you are exactly right. The mRNA shot
> > > >> will likely keep you from dying but will not stop you from
> > > >> contracting or spreading the CCP Wuhan product.
> > > >
> > > > "Natural immunity" isn't faring that well.
> > > > https://news.yale.edu/2021/10/01/unvaccinated-reinfection-sars-cov-2-likely-study-finds
> > > > Natural immunity and a vaccine appear to be the ticket, although one
> > > > would prefer to skip being sick to start with. No vaccine is 100% and
> > > > many are not effective forever. Flu vaccines are notoriously
> > > > ineffective, but we still take them, and they prevent some infections.
> > > Who is this "we"? Patients in the US are able to choose whether to get
> > > a flu shot or not. They should be able to make a choice with respect to
> > > covid as well. For healthy young people the covid vaccine is almost
> > > certainly more dangerous, (albeit fairly safe), than infection with covid.
> > Almost certainly? CDC says that vaccines are safer for young people than the disease, but maybe they are lying to us because they want to kill young people. Personally, I think we should be out to kill the old people to reduce the pressure on the SS/Medicare trusts.
> I read Radey's comments too and wondered. I've seen lots of stories about kids catching Covid and some of them dying. Especially in Mississippi and other anti vaccine Republican states that outlaw masks. But I guess they are only kids so what, who cares. They can't vote and give me money so...
> > > As for natural immunity, here's a paper based on Israeli data that
> > > claims considerably more protection from natural immunity than from
> > > vaccination:
> > >
> > > https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1
> > >
> > > You might note that Israel was and is at the forefront in coercing their
> > > citizens into covid vaccination. It does not seem to have gone very
> > > well; last I read they were considering a mandate for boooster #2 (shot
> > > #4).
> > The Israel study showed that natural immunity and at least one dose of vaccine provided the best immunity. That's why I mentioned it. Whether their observational retrospective study is accurate is beyond my expertise. https://www.factcheck.org/2021/09/scicheck-instagram-post-missing-context-about-israeli-study-on-covid-19-natural-immunity/ The Yale study uses a different methodology, and I haven't read it completely, but it is peer reviewed and in Lancet. The bottom line for both studies is that getting poked is a plus, whether you're previously infected or not.
> >
> > -- Jay Beattie.
> Yes even that evil sinister Dr. Fauci and the incompetent (under Trump) CDC say to get a vaccine even if you recovered from Covid.
> https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaccine-immunity/fact-check-cdc-recommends-covid-19-vaccine-even-after-recovering-from-the-virus-idUSL1N2QH2HP

Are you attempting to suggest that you give one damn about any children? Even you own? You're trying to put them into socialist slavery for the rest of their lives and then trying to use them as some sort of reason to react despite the fact that it has been shown to you that there are NO children dying from covid? Don't pretend that you give one solitary damn about your own children if you are willing to lock them into they and their grandchildren paying off a debt that you want to spend on yourself.

On 10/6/2021 12:03 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 7:36:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 10/5/2021 7:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 10/5/2021 4:29 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 10/5/2021 11:15 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Successful human vaccines, such as smallpox, polio,
>>>>>> measles, mumps,
>>>>>> pertussis, &c produce "sterilizing immunity". The
>>>>>> vaccinated do not
>>>>>> become infected. The available covid vaccines do not
>>>>>> work this way and
>>>>>> hence are not comparable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry to disagree with you, but I have a close and
>>>>> beloved family
>>>>> member who nearly died from a malady against which he was
>>>>> vaccinated.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, a few years ago I had an extremely scary bronchial
>>>>> problem. My
>>>>> primary care physician was afraid I had whooping cough,
>>>>> even though we
>>>>> both knew I had been vaccinated against it. He said
>>>>> post-vaccination
>>>>> whooping cough is uncommon, but a definite possibility.
>>>>> (Fortunately,
>>>>> that was not my problem.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Then there are the many cases of post-vaccination
>>>>> shingles, and many
>>>>> other diseases. These things happen. Vaccines are not as
>>>>> reliable as
>>>>> light switches.
>>>>
>>>> I agree that no vaccine is 100% effective. However the
>>>> covid vaccines
>>>> are remarkably bad compared to other widely prescribed,
>>>> let alone
>>>> mandated, vaccines.
>>>
>>> So instead, the strategy should have been... what? We've
>>> heard here that it certainly shouldn't include masks or any
>>> restrictions affecting any business.
>>>
>>> Perhaps vitamin D?
>>>
>>>
>> A great body of research, both lab and clinical, plus an
>> ever growing pile of opinion pieces by MDs, indicates that
>> various therapies (including, yes, Vitamin D where the
>> patient is deficient, a common malady of the aged) are
>> effective and safe. The incessant irrational and yes
>> pernicious attacks on each and every therapy (from common,
>> safe, very old drugs such as hydrochloroquine to monoclonal
>> antibodies such as Regeneron) is mystifying. Especially
>> mystifying in light of the known serious deficiencies of the
>> two mRNA shots.
>
> ??????? What serious deficiencies are there with the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines? I'm not aware of any. 180 million have been given in the USA. I'm pretty sure if millions or even hundreds of thousands of people were dying or getting seriously sick from the vaccine, we would have heard the stories. Can't keep that hidden.
>
> As for hydrochloroquine and monoclonal antibodies, they are treatments for Covid. And I am not sure there has been definitive tests on hydro to prove it really works on Covid or not. The antibodies do work. But these are TREATMENTS for Covid. Vaccines PREVENT Covid. Its always better to take a really cheap easy simple vaccine to PREVENT a disease than it is to use an expensive complicated TREATMENT for a disease.

And regarding "cheaper": The vaccines cost something like $30 per
person. Monoclonal antibodies cost over $2000 per person.

Yet I'd bet a large portion of those advocating the $2000 treatment have
also whined about the government's medical spending.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, October 6, 2021 at 7:35:30 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 10/6/2021 12:03 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 7:36:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 10/5/2021 7:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 10/5/2021 4:29 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 10/5/2021 11:15 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Successful human vaccines, such as smallpox, polio,
> >>>>>> measles, mumps,
> >>>>>> pertussis, &c produce "sterilizing immunity". The
> >>>>>> vaccinated do not
> >>>>>> become infected. The available covid vaccines do not
> >>>>>> work this way and
> >>>>>> hence are not comparable.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sorry to disagree with you, but I have a close and
> >>>>> beloved family
> >>>>> member who nearly died from a malady against which he was
> >>>>> vaccinated.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Also, a few years ago I had an extremely scary bronchial
> >>>>> problem. My
> >>>>> primary care physician was afraid I had whooping cough,
> >>>>> even though we
> >>>>> both knew I had been vaccinated against it. He said
> >>>>> post-vaccination
> >>>>> whooping cough is uncommon, but a definite possibility.
> >>>>> (Fortunately,
> >>>>> that was not my problem.)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Then there are the many cases of post-vaccination
> >>>>> shingles, and many
> >>>>> other diseases. These things happen. Vaccines are not as
> >>>>> reliable as
> >>>>> light switches.
> >>>>
> >>>> I agree that no vaccine is 100% effective. However the
> >>>> covid vaccines
> >>>> are remarkably bad compared to other widely prescribed,
> >>>> let alone
> >>>> mandated, vaccines.
> >>>
> >>> So instead, the strategy should have been... what? We've
> >>> heard here that it certainly shouldn't include masks or any
> >>> restrictions affecting any business.
> >>>
> >>> Perhaps vitamin D?
> >>>
> >>>
> >> A great body of research, both lab and clinical, plus an
> >> ever growing pile of opinion pieces by MDs, indicates that
> >> various therapies (including, yes, Vitamin D where the
> >> patient is deficient, a common malady of the aged) are
> >> effective and safe. The incessant irrational and yes
> >> pernicious attacks on each and every therapy (from common,
> >> safe, very old drugs such as hydrochloroquine to monoclonal
> >> antibodies such as Regeneron) is mystifying. Especially
> >> mystifying in light of the known serious deficiencies of the
> >> two mRNA shots.
> >
> > ??????? What serious deficiencies are there with the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines? I'm not aware of any. 180 million have been given in the USA. I'm pretty sure if millions or even hundreds of thousands of people were dying or getting seriously sick from the vaccine, we would have heard the stories. Can't keep that hidden.
> >
> > As for hydrochloroquine and monoclonal antibodies, they are treatments for Covid. And I am not sure there has been definitive tests on hydro to prove it really works on Covid or not. The antibodies do work. But these are TREATMENTS for Covid. Vaccines PREVENT Covid. Its always better to take a really cheap easy simple vaccine to PREVENT a disease than it is to use an expensive complicated TREATMENT for a disease.
> And regarding "cheaper": The vaccines cost something like $30 per
> person. Monoclonal antibodies cost over $2000 per person.
>
> Yet I'd bet a large portion of those advocating the $2000 treatment have
> also whined about the government's medical spending.

Do you always have to show your ignorance? None of these vaccines or treatments are necessary - I have shown you the CDC statistics - there IS no pandemic. Is your fear addiction so great that you can't wait until you get your next fix?

On 10/6/2021 9:53 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/5/2021 11:03 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 7:36:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 10/5/2021 7:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>
>>
>> ???????  What serious deficiencies are there with the Moderna and
>> Pfizer vaccines?  I'm not aware of any.  180 million have been given
>> in the USA.  I'm pretty sure if millions or even hundreds of thousands
>> of people were dying or getting seriously sick from the vaccine, we
>> would have heard the stories.  Can't keep that hidden.
>>
>> As for hydrochloroquine and monoclonal antibodies, they are treatments
>> for Covid.  And I am not sure there has been definitive tests on hydro
>> to prove it really works on Covid or not.  The antibodies do work.
>> But these are TREATMENTS for Covid.  Vaccines PREVENT Covid.  Its
>> always better to take a really cheap easy simple vaccine to PREVENT a
>> disease than it is to use an expensive complicated TREATMENT for a
>> disease.  I'm sure there are many marvelous medical ways to treat and
>> cure lung and liver cancer.  But isn't it better to just not smoke and
>> not drink to prevent lung and liver cancer?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> What serious deficiencies
>>
>>>
>>> As My Shouman noted earlier, "it's hard to account for this
>>> in a charitable manner." to which I added my +1. At some
>>> point a less than charitable conclusion remains after every
>>> other case has been disproved.> What serious deficiencies
>
>
>> "What serious deficiencies" ?
>
>
> As discussed, endlessly both here and in the popular science press for
> months, the mRNA shots incite one antibody which is very effective in
> preventing the typical arterial, heart and lung damage which can be
> fatal. This is a good thing. They are also the first two ever in history
> things of this type. That's remarkable and deserves credit.
>
> They do not, however replicate the many other defenses (several types of
> T- and B-cells) humans muster (some known, probably others yet unknown)
> including notably respiratory/mucus antibodies such that with either
> mRNA shot you probably will not die (positive effect) but you'll still
> probably become reinfected and contagious (not so good).

It occurs to me that people are still free to get purposely infected
with COVID if they decide they want better immunity. Some making that
choice may die, and others may lose their ability to smell and taste.
Others may find themselves with "long COVID" and/or other long term
problems. But they'll have more antibodies!

Those folks might have a problem of complying with vaccination mandates.
But as I understand it, vaccination after COVID infection causes only
the mildest discomfort. And most vaccination "mandates" are not really
that; instead, they are mandates to _either_ get vaccinated or get
frequent tests.

Finally, I think a company owner should be free to mandate that his
workers and/or his customers produce proof of vaccination. Those who
refuse can certainly choose to go elsewhere to work or to shop.

Freedom!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 10/6/2021 10:24 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Here is the chart FROM the CDC themselves showing that medical facilities were reporting anything and everything as covid deaths for the $50,000 per head bounty. IF these covid deaths existed why was there no growth in total normal deaths? https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/04102020/nchs-data.html
>
> You know, any normal person saying what you are over and over contrary to evidence would be embarrassed, but not John.

What would you say about a person who over and over posts an April 2020
graph and pretends it's current evidence?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, October 6, 2021 at 8:07:00 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 10/6/2021 10:24 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >
> > Here is the chart FROM the CDC themselves showing that medical facilities were reporting anything and everything as covid deaths for the $50,000 per head bounty. IF these covid deaths existed why was there no growth in total normal deaths? https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/04102020/nchs-data.html
> >
> > You know, any normal person saying what you are over and over contrary to evidence would be embarrassed, but not John.
> What would you say about a person who over and over posts an April 2020
> graph and pretends it's current evidence?

I have also posted the totally up to date CDC charts that show NO covid deaths and total excess deaths in the neighborhood of 12-15,000. What would you call someone that cannot talk about that?

On Wednesday, October 6, 2021 at 7:54:08 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 10/6/2021 9:53 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 10/5/2021 11:03 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 7:36:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> On 10/5/2021 7:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>
> >>
> >> ??????? What serious deficiencies are there with the Moderna and
> >> Pfizer vaccines? I'm not aware of any. 180 million have been given
> >> in the USA. I'm pretty sure if millions or even hundreds of thousands
> >> of people were dying or getting seriously sick from the vaccine, we
> >> would have heard the stories. Can't keep that hidden.
> >>
> >> As for hydrochloroquine and monoclonal antibodies, they are treatments
> >> for Covid. And I am not sure there has been definitive tests on hydro
> >> to prove it really works on Covid or not. The antibodies do work.
> >> But these are TREATMENTS for Covid. Vaccines PREVENT Covid. Its
> >> always better to take a really cheap easy simple vaccine to PREVENT a
> >> disease than it is to use an expensive complicated TREATMENT for a
> >> disease. I'm sure there are many marvelous medical ways to treat and
> >> cure lung and liver cancer. But isn't it better to just not smoke and
> >> not drink to prevent lung and liver cancer?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> What serious deficiencies
> >>
> >>>
> >>> As My Shouman noted earlier, "it's hard to account for this
> >>> in a charitable manner." to which I added my +1. At some
> >>> point a less than charitable conclusion remains after every
> >>> other case has been disproved.> What serious deficiencies
> >
> >
> >> "What serious deficiencies" ?
> >
> >
> > As discussed, endlessly both here and in the popular science press for
> > months, the mRNA shots incite one antibody which is very effective in
> > preventing the typical arterial, heart and lung damage which can be
> > fatal. This is a good thing. They are also the first two ever in history
> > things of this type. That's remarkable and deserves credit.
> >
> > They do not, however replicate the many other defenses (several types of
> > T- and B-cells) humans muster (some known, probably others yet unknown)
> > including notably respiratory/mucus antibodies such that with either
> > mRNA shot you probably will not die (positive effect) but you'll still
> > probably become reinfected and contagious (not so good).
> It occurs to me that people are still free to get purposely infected
> with COVID if they decide they want better immunity. Some making that
> choice may die, and others may lose their ability to smell and taste.
> Others may find themselves with "long COVID" and/or other long term
> problems. But they'll have more antibodies!
>
> Those folks might have a problem of complying with vaccination mandates.
> But as I understand it, vaccination after COVID infection causes only
> the mildest discomfort. And most vaccination "mandates" are not really
> that; instead, they are mandates to _either_ get vaccinated or get
> frequent tests.
>
> Finally, I think a company owner should be free to mandate that his
> workers and/or his customers produce proof of vaccination. Those who
> refuse can certainly choose to go elsewhere to work or to shop.
>
> Freedom!

When the CDC show NO excess respiratory deaths exactly why do you insist there must be because the lame stream media tells you so?