On 10/6/2021 11:13 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 6, 2021 at 8:07:00 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 10/6/2021 10:24 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>>> Here is the chart FROM the CDC themselves showing that medical facilities were reporting anything and everything as covid deaths for the $50,000 per head bounty. IF these covid deaths existed why was there no growth in total normal deaths? https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/04102020/nchs-data.html
>>>
>>> You know, any normal person saying what you are over and over contrary to evidence would be embarrassed, but not John.
>> What would you say about a person who over and over posts an April 2020
>> graph and pretends it's current evidence?
>
> I have also posted the totally up to date CDC charts that show NO covid deaths and total excess deaths in the neighborhood of 12-15,000. What would you call someone that cannot talk about that?

Like these?
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#demographicsovertime

Funny, graph #5 seems different from the zero deaths that you keep claiming.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 10/6/2021 9:54 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 10/6/2021 9:53 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 10/5/2021 11:03 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 7:36:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 10/5/2021 7:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>
>>>
>>> ??????? What serious deficiencies are there with the
>>> Moderna and Pfizer vaccines? I'm not aware of any.Â
>>> 180 million have been given in the USA. I'm pretty sure
>>> if millions or even hundreds of thousands of people were
>>> dying or getting seriously sick from the vaccine, we
>>> would have heard the stories. Can't keep that hidden.
>>>
>>> As for hydrochloroquine and monoclonal antibodies, they
>>> are treatments for Covid. And I am not sure there has
>>> been definitive tests on hydro to prove it really works
>>> on Covid or not. The antibodies do work. But these are
>>> TREATMENTS for Covid. Vaccines PREVENT Covid. Its
>>> always better to take a really cheap easy simple vaccine
>>> to PREVENT a disease than it is to use an expensive
>>> complicated TREATMENT for a disease. I'm sure there are
>>> many marvelous medical ways to treat and cure lung and
>>> liver cancer. But isn't it better to just not smoke and
>>> not drink to prevent lung and liver cancer?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What serious deficiencies
>>>
>>>>
>>>> As My Shouman noted earlier, "it's hard to account for this
>>>> in a charitable manner." to which I added my +1. At some
>>>> point a less than charitable conclusion remains after every
>>>> other case has been disproved.> What serious deficiencies
>>
>>
>>> "What serious deficiencies" ?
>>
>>
>> As discussed, endlessly both here and in the popular
>> science press for months, the mRNA shots incite one
>> antibody which is very effective in preventing the typical
>> arterial, heart and lung damage which can be fatal. This
>> is a good thing. They are also the first two ever in
>> history things of this type. That's remarkable and
>> deserves credit.
>>
>> They do not, however replicate the many other defenses
>> (several types of T- and B-cells) humans muster (some
>> known, probably others yet unknown) including notably
>> respiratory/mucus antibodies such that with either mRNA
>> shot you probably will not die (positive effect) but
>> you'll still probably become reinfected and contagious
>> (not so good).
>
> It occurs to me that people are still free to get purposely
> infected with COVID if they decide they want better
> immunity. Some making that choice may die, and others may
> lose their ability to smell and taste. Others may find
> themselves with "long COVID" and/or other long term
> problems. But they'll have more antibodies!
>
> Those folks might have a problem of complying with
> vaccination mandates. But as I understand it, vaccination
> after COVID infection causes only the mildest discomfort.
> And most vaccination "mandates" are not really that;
> instead, they are mandates to _either_ get vaccinated or get
> frequent tests.
>
> Finally, I think a company owner should be free to mandate
> that his workers and/or his customers produce proof of
> vaccination. Those who refuse can certainly choose to go
> elsewhere to work or to shop.
>
> Freedom!
>
>

Something like 80 million to 100 million USAians have
contracted the CCP Wuhan virus and recovered. They exhibit
robust immunity, so much so that their human serum has been
used successfully as a treatment for those whose reactions
put them near death.

The manic rabid emphasis on 'proof of Pfizer shot' while
ignoring people whose tests show active antibodies AND inane
suppression of the many and various therapies goes well
beyond any charitable explanation. This is not 'science' nor
'medicine' but rather a series of policy errors (the most
charitable term possible).

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, October 6, 2021 at 10:49:05 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/6/2021 9:54 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 10/6/2021 9:53 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 10/5/2021 11:03 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 7:36:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> On 10/5/2021 7:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>> ??????? What serious deficiencies are there with the
> >>> Moderna and Pfizer vaccines? I'm not aware of any.Â
> >>> 180 million have been given in the USA. I'm pretty sure
> >>> if millions or even hundreds of thousands of people were
> >>> dying or getting seriously sick from the vaccine, we
> >>> would have heard the stories. Can't keep that hidden.
> >>>
> >>> As for hydrochloroquine and monoclonal antibodies, they
> >>> are treatments for Covid. And I am not sure there has
> >>> been definitive tests on hydro to prove it really works
> >>> on Covid or not. The antibodies do work. But these are
> >>> TREATMENTS for Covid. Vaccines PREVENT Covid. Its
> >>> always better to take a really cheap easy simple vaccine
> >>> to PREVENT a disease than it is to use an expensive
> >>> complicated TREATMENT for a disease. I'm sure there are
> >>> many marvelous medical ways to treat and cure lung and
> >>> liver cancer. But isn't it better to just not smoke and
> >>> not drink to prevent lung and liver cancer?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> What serious deficiencies
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> As My Shouman noted earlier, "it's hard to account for this
> >>>> in a charitable manner." to which I added my +1. At some
> >>>> point a less than charitable conclusion remains after every
> >>>> other case has been disproved.> What serious deficiencies
> >>
> >>
> >>> "What serious deficiencies" ?
> >>
> >>
> >> As discussed, endlessly both here and in the popular
> >> science press for months, the mRNA shots incite one
> >> antibody which is very effective in preventing the typical
> >> arterial, heart and lung damage which can be fatal. This
> >> is a good thing. They are also the first two ever in
> >> history things of this type. That's remarkable and
> >> deserves credit.
> >>
> >> They do not, however replicate the many other defenses
> >> (several types of T- and B-cells) humans muster (some
> >> known, probably others yet unknown) including notably
> >> respiratory/mucus antibodies such that with either mRNA
> >> shot you probably will not die (positive effect) but
> >> you'll still probably become reinfected and contagious
> >> (not so good).
> >
> > It occurs to me that people are still free to get purposely
> > infected with COVID if they decide they want better
> > immunity. Some making that choice may die, and others may
> > lose their ability to smell and taste. Others may find
> > themselves with "long COVID" and/or other long term
> > problems. But they'll have more antibodies!
> >
> > Those folks might have a problem of complying with
> > vaccination mandates. But as I understand it, vaccination
> > after COVID infection causes only the mildest discomfort.
> > And most vaccination "mandates" are not really that;
> > instead, they are mandates to _either_ get vaccinated or get
> > frequent tests.
> >
> > Finally, I think a company owner should be free to mandate
> > that his workers and/or his customers produce proof of
> > vaccination. Those who refuse can certainly choose to go
> > elsewhere to work or to shop.
> >
> > Freedom!
> >
> >
> Something like 80 million to 100 million USAians have
> contracted the CCP Wuhan virus and recovered. They exhibit
> robust immunity, so much so that their human serum has been
> used successfully as a treatment for those whose reactions
> put them near death.
>
> The manic rabid emphasis on 'proof of Pfizer shot' while
> ignoring people whose tests show active antibodies AND inane
> suppression of the many and various therapies goes well
> beyond any charitable explanation. This is not 'science' nor
> 'medicine' but rather a series of policy errors (the most
> charitable term possible).

Natural immunity is not that robust according to the Yale study, and convalescent plasma has not been proved effective. https://www.uofmhealth.org/news/archive/202108/treating-newly-infected-covid-19-patients-plasma-covid It is another equivocal therapy.

If we're talking about proof of immunity, a vaccine card is certainly more reliable than someone saying, "hey, I had COVID, and I have natural immunity." Even if the person isn't lying, having COVID does not always result in immunity. https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/9/21-1042_article

In our work place, you're either vaccinated, or you pass a COVID test before coming into the office, or you work from home until we re-open, if possible. If presence is required, then you have to vaccinate or test -- or get another job. Nobody has quit, and those working in the office praised the policy. It satisfies far more than it offends. Parents with babies (we had a recent baby boom -- I think five or six new babies) and those with chronic conditions are particularly happy.

-- Jay Beattie.

"russellseaton1@yahoo.com" <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> writes:

> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 4:39:57 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 1:27:18 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> > jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> writes:
>> >
>> > > On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 8:44:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> > >> On 10/5/2021 10:15 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> > >> > "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
>> > >> >
>> > >> >> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 9:28:05 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
>> > >> >>>
>> > >> >>> Now that companies are firing employees that refuse to get
>> > >> >>> vaccinated,
>> > >> >>> and universities are expelling students that refuse to get
>> > >> >>> vaccinated
>> > >> >>> (other than those that have a valid medical reason for
>> > >> >>> refusing), the
>> > >> >>> percentages will start to rise in the U.S..
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Maybe, possibly, if we are really lucky. BUT, even if the vaccination
>> > >> >> rises due to the threats, it will be a miniscule minimal amount. 0.1%
>> > >> >> each month or so. As you state we are at 56.3% fully vaccinated now.
>> > >> >> If my 0.1% is accurate, it will take 15 years 7 months to reach that
>> > >> >> mythical herd immunity percentage of 75%. 1 million, 2 million, 3
>> > >> >> million more dead people? From a disease that is easily prevented
>> > >> >> with an available vaccine. Is that winning?
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Except it's not prevented by the available vaccine. CDC agrees that
>> > >> > vaccinated people can and do become infected and do spread
>> > >> > the disease.
>> > >> > The "mythical" herd immunity vaccination threshold is indeed mythical,
>> > >> > there is no reason to think that covid would vanish even at 100%
>> > >> > vaccination.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Successful human vaccines, such as smallpox, polio, measles, mumps,
>> > >> > pertussis, &c produce "sterilizing immunity". The vaccinated do not
>> > >> > become infected. The available covid vaccines do not work this way and
>> > >> > hence are not comparable. Leaky vaccines like those for covid
>> > >> > allow the
>> > >> > virus to continue to evolve among the vaccinated, which has given rise
>> > >> > to at least one remarkably lethal viral disease in chickens. Do a
>> > >> > search for "Marek's disease".
>> > >> >
>> > >> +1
>> > >> Which is why I have avoided calling the Pfizer/Moderna mRNA
>> > >> products 'vaccine'. J&J is an actual vaccine of attenuated
>> > >> virus.
>> > >>
>> > >> The mRNA jab promotes production of a blood-borne antibody.
>> > >> An antibody, one of the body's defenses, but only one.
>> > >> This is an important aspect of human immune response and is
>> > >> effective for the (sometimes fatal)
>> > >> vascular/cardiac/respiratory damage caused by a combination
>> > >> of the virus and cysteine response. It does not promote
>> > >> production of respiratory/mucosa antibodies (found in
>> > >> 'natural' immunity) so you are exactly right. The mRNA shot
>> > >> will likely keep you from dying but will not stop you from
>> > >> contracting or spreading the CCP Wuhan product.
>> > >
>> > > "Natural immunity" isn't faring that well.
>> > > https://news.yale.edu/2021/10/01/unvaccinated-reinfection-sars-cov-2-likely-study-finds
>> > > Natural immunity and a vaccine appear to be the ticket, although one
>> > > would prefer to skip being sick to start with. No vaccine is 100% and
>> > > many are not effective forever. Flu vaccines are notoriously
>> > > ineffective, but we still take them, and they prevent some infections.
>> > Who is this "we"? Patients in the US are able to choose whether to get
>> > a flu shot or not. They should be able to make a choice with respect to
>> > covid as well. For healthy young people the covid vaccine is almost
>> > certainly more dangerous, (albeit fairly safe), than infection with covid.
>> Almost certainly? CDC says that vaccines are safer for young people
>> than the disease, but maybe they are lying to us because they want
>> to kill young people. Personally, I think we should be out to kill
>> the old people to reduce the pressure on the SS/Medicare trusts.
>
> I read Radey's comments too and wondered. I've seen lots of stories
> about kids catching Covid and some of them dying. Especially in
> Mississippi and other anti vaccine Republican states that outlaw
> masks. But I guess they are only kids so what, who cares. They can't
> vote and give me money so...

If you have any numbers on kids, say below 18, dying *of* covid, that
might be informative. Stories, in this day and age, are increasingly
just that.

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:

> On 10/5/2021 4:27 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> jbeattie <jbeattie57@msn.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 8:44:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 10/5/2021 10:15 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 9:28:05 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now that companies are firing employees that refuse to get vaccinated,
>>>>>>> and universities are expelling students that refuse to get vaccinated
>>>>>>> (other than those that have a valid medical reason for refusing), the
>>>>>>> percentages will start to rise in the U.S..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe, possibly, if we are really lucky. BUT, even if the vaccination
>>>>>> rises due to the threats, it will be a miniscule minimal amount. 0.1%
>>>>>> each month or so. As you state we are at 56.3% fully vaccinated now.
>>>>>> If my 0.1% is accurate, it will take 15 years 7 months to reach that
>>>>>> mythical herd immunity percentage of 75%. 1 million, 2 million, 3
>>>>>> million more dead people? From a disease that is easily prevented
>>>>>> with an available vaccine. Is that winning?
>>>>>
>>>>> Except it's not prevented by the available vaccine. CDC agrees that
>>>>> vaccinated people can and do become infected and do spread the disease.
>>>>> The "mythical" herd immunity vaccination threshold is indeed mythical,
>>>>> there is no reason to think that covid would vanish even at 100%
>>>>> vaccination.
>>>>>
>>>>> Successful human vaccines, such as smallpox, polio, measles, mumps,
>>>>> pertussis, &c produce "sterilizing immunity". The vaccinated do not
>>>>> become infected. The available covid vaccines do not work this way and
>>>>> hence are not comparable. Leaky vaccines like those for covid allow the
>>>>> virus to continue to evolve among the vaccinated, which has given rise
>>>>> to at least one remarkably lethal viral disease in chickens. Do a
>>>>> search for "Marek's disease".
>>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>> Which is why I have avoided calling the Pfizer/Moderna mRNA
>>>> products 'vaccine'. J&J is an actual vaccine of attenuated
>>>> virus.
>>>>
>>>> The mRNA jab promotes production of a blood-borne antibody.
>>>> An antibody, one of the body's defenses, but only one.
>>>> This is an important aspect of human immune response and is
>>>> effective for the (sometimes fatal)
>>>> vascular/cardiac/respiratory damage caused by a combination
>>>> of the virus and cysteine response. It does not promote
>>>> production of respiratory/mucosa antibodies (found in
>>>> 'natural' immunity) so you are exactly right. The mRNA shot
>>>> will likely keep you from dying but will not stop you from
>>>> contracting or spreading the CCP Wuhan product.
>>>
>>> "Natural immunity" isn't faring that well.
>>> https://news.yale.edu/2021/10/01/unvaccinated-reinfection-sars-cov-2-likely-study-finds
>>> Natural immunity and a vaccine appear to be the ticket, although one
>>> would prefer to skip being sick to start with. No vaccine is 100% and
>>> many are not effective forever. Flu vaccines are notoriously
>>> ineffective, but we still take them, and they prevent some infections.
>>
>> Who is this "we"? Patients in the US are able to choose whether to get
>> a flu shot or not. They should be able to make a choice with respect to
>> covid as well.
>
> And dammit, Mary Mallon* should have been allowed to work as a cook!
> Freedom!
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon
>
> (* AKA Typhoid Mary)

Not quite the same. In the present case those vaccinated against covid
seem to be more of a danger to the unvaccinated than vice versa. The
vaccinated are currently most of the un- or pre-symptomatic carriers.

On Wednesday, October 6, 2021 at 11:54:35 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 10/6/2021 11:13 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 6, 2021 at 8:07:00 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 10/6/2021 10:24 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Here is the chart FROM the CDC themselves showing that medical facilities were reporting anything and everything as covid deaths for the $50,000 per head bounty. IF these covid deaths existed why was there no growth in total normal deaths? https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/04102020/nchs-data.html
> >>>
> >>> You know, any normal person saying what you are over and over contrary to evidence would be embarrassed, but not John.
> >> What would you say about a person who over and over posts an April 2020
> >> graph and pretends it's current evidence?
> >
> > I have also posted the totally up to date CDC charts that show NO covid deaths and total excess deaths in the neighborhood of 12-15,000. What would you call someone that cannot talk about that?
> Like these?
> https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#demographicsovertime
>
> Funny, graph #5 seems different from the zero deaths that you keep claiming.
>

Now Frank, you know how tommy reacts when you tease him with facts....

On 10/6/2021 1:49 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/6/2021 9:54 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> It occurs to me that people are still free to get purposely
>> infected with COVID if they decide they want better
>> immunity. Some making that choice may die, and others may
>> lose their ability to smell and taste. Others may find
>> themselves with "long COVID" and/or other long term
>> problems. But they'll have more antibodies!
>>
>> Those folks might have a problem of complying with
>> vaccination mandates. But as I understand it, vaccination
>> after COVID infection causes only the mildest discomfort.
>> And most vaccination "mandates" are not really that;
>> instead, they are mandates to _either_ get vaccinated or get
>> frequent tests.
>>
>> Finally, I think a company owner should be free to mandate
>> that his workers and/or his customers produce proof of
>> vaccination. Those who refuse can certainly choose to go
>> elsewhere to work or to shop.
>>
>> Freedom!
>
> Something like 80 million to 100 million USAians have contracted the CCP
> Wuhan virus and recovered. They exhibit robust immunity, so much so that
> their human serum has been used successfully as a treatment for those
> whose reactions put them near death.

You probably know more about that treatment than I do. So, can you give
us a cost estimate?

> The manic rabid emphasis on 'proof of Pfizer shot' while ignoring people
> whose tests show active antibodies AND inane suppression of the many and
> various therapies goes well beyond any charitable explanation. This is
> not 'science' nor 'medicine' but rather a series of policy errors (the
> most charitable term possible).

OK, assuming a person who's had COVID and recovered does have suitable
levels of antibodies and immunity:

Is there some easy and inexpensive test that proves that, and can be
used to generate decent documentation? I ask because (and this may shock
you) some vaccine resisters seem motivated to lie about anything related
to COVID.

Surely you won't deny a business owner his right to demand proof of some
level of immunity in either his employees or his patrons!

After all - Freedom!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 10/6/2021 2:30 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski writes:
>
>>
>>
>> And dammit, Mary Mallon* should have been allowed to work as a cook!
>> Freedom!
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon
>>
>> (* AKA Typhoid Mary)
>
> Not quite the same. In the present case those vaccinated against covid
> seem to be more of a danger to the unvaccinated than vice versa. The
> vaccinated are currently most of the un- or pre-symptomatic carriers.

Got documentation of that "more of a danger" point? It's new to me.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Am 06.10.2021 um 21:25 schrieb Frank Krygowski:
> On 10/6/2021 1:49 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 10/6/2021 9:54 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>> It occurs to me that people are still free to get purposely
>>> infected with COVID if they decide they want better
>>> immunity. Some making that choice may die, and others may
>>> lose their ability to smell and taste. Others may find
>>> themselves with "long COVID" and/or other long term
>>> problems. But they'll have more antibodies!
>>>
>>> Those folks might have a problem of complying with
>>> vaccination mandates. But as I understand it, vaccination
>>> after COVID infection causes only the mildest discomfort.
>>> And most vaccination "mandates" are not really that;
>>> instead, they are mandates to _either_ get vaccinated or get
>>> frequent tests.
>>>
>>> Finally, I think a company owner should be free to mandate
>>> that his workers and/or his customers produce proof of
>>> vaccination. Those who refuse can certainly choose to go
>>> elsewhere to work or to shop.
>>>
>>> Freedom!
>>
>> Something like 80 million to 100 million USAians have contracted the
>> CCP Wuhan virus and recovered. They exhibit robust immunity, so much
>> so that their human serum has been used successfully as a treatment
>> for those whose reactions put them near death.
>
> You probably know more about that treatment than I do. So, can you give
> us a cost estimate?
>
>> The manic rabid emphasis on 'proof of Pfizer shot' while ignoring
>> people whose tests show active antibodies AND inane suppression of the
>> many and various therapies goes well beyond any charitable
>> explanation. This is not 'science' nor 'medicine' but rather a series
>> of policy errors (the most charitable term possible).
>
> OK, assuming a person who's had COVID and recovered does have suitable
> levels of antibodies and immunity:
>
> Is there some easy and inexpensive test that proves that, and can be
> used to generate decent documentation? I ask because (and this may shock
> you) some vaccine resisters seem motivated to lie about anything related
> to COVID.

In Germany, proof of a positive PCR test some time back (IIRC more than
a month ago but less than a year ago) counts as proof of immunity.

On Wednesday, October 6, 2021 at 11:05:44 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 6, 2021 at 10:49:05 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 10/6/2021 9:54 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On 10/6/2021 9:53 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> On 10/5/2021 11:03 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 7:36:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>> On 10/5/2021 7:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>
> > >>> ??????? What serious deficiencies are there with the
> > >>> Moderna and Pfizer vaccines? I'm not aware of any.Â
> > >>> 180 million have been given in the USA. I'm pretty sure
> > >>> if millions or even hundreds of thousands of people were
> > >>> dying or getting seriously sick from the vaccine, we
> > >>> would have heard the stories. Can't keep that hidden.
> > >>>
> > >>> As for hydrochloroquine and monoclonal antibodies, they
> > >>> are treatments for Covid. And I am not sure there has
> > >>> been definitive tests on hydro to prove it really works
> > >>> on Covid or not. The antibodies do work. But these are
> > >>> TREATMENTS for Covid. Vaccines PREVENT Covid. Its
> > >>> always better to take a really cheap easy simple vaccine
> > >>> to PREVENT a disease than it is to use an expensive
> > >>> complicated TREATMENT for a disease. I'm sure there are
> > >>> many marvelous medical ways to treat and cure lung and
> > >>> liver cancer. But isn't it better to just not smoke and
> > >>> not drink to prevent lung and liver cancer?
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> What serious deficiencies
> > >>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> As My Shouman noted earlier, "it's hard to account for this
> > >>>> in a charitable manner." to which I added my +1. At some
> > >>>> point a less than charitable conclusion remains after every
> > >>>> other case has been disproved.> What serious deficiencies
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> "What serious deficiencies" ?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> As discussed, endlessly both here and in the popular
> > >> science press for months, the mRNA shots incite one
> > >> antibody which is very effective in preventing the typical
> > >> arterial, heart and lung damage which can be fatal. This
> > >> is a good thing. They are also the first two ever in
> > >> history things of this type. That's remarkable and
> > >> deserves credit.
> > >>
> > >> They do not, however replicate the many other defenses
> > >> (several types of T- and B-cells) humans muster (some
> > >> known, probably others yet unknown) including notably
> > >> respiratory/mucus antibodies such that with either mRNA
> > >> shot you probably will not die (positive effect) but
> > >> you'll still probably become reinfected and contagious
> > >> (not so good).
> > >
> > > It occurs to me that people are still free to get purposely
> > > infected with COVID if they decide they want better
> > > immunity. Some making that choice may die, and others may
> > > lose their ability to smell and taste. Others may find
> > > themselves with "long COVID" and/or other long term
> > > problems. But they'll have more antibodies!
> > >
> > > Those folks might have a problem of complying with
> > > vaccination mandates. But as I understand it, vaccination
> > > after COVID infection causes only the mildest discomfort.
> > > And most vaccination "mandates" are not really that;
> > > instead, they are mandates to _either_ get vaccinated or get
> > > frequent tests.
> > >
> > > Finally, I think a company owner should be free to mandate
> > > that his workers and/or his customers produce proof of
> > > vaccination. Those who refuse can certainly choose to go
> > > elsewhere to work or to shop.
> > >
> > > Freedom!
> > >
> > >
> > Something like 80 million to 100 million USAians have
> > contracted the CCP Wuhan virus and recovered. They exhibit
> > robust immunity, so much so that their human serum has been
> > used successfully as a treatment for those whose reactions
> > put them near death.
> >
> > The manic rabid emphasis on 'proof of Pfizer shot' while
> > ignoring people whose tests show active antibodies AND inane
> > suppression of the many and various therapies goes well
> > beyond any charitable explanation. This is not 'science' nor
> > 'medicine' but rather a series of policy errors (the most
> > charitable term possible).
> Natural immunity is not that robust according to the Yale study, and convalescent plasma has not been proved effective. https://www.uofmhealth.org/news/archive/202108/treating-newly-infected-covid-19-patients-plasma-covid It is another equivocal therapy.
>
> If we're talking about proof of immunity, a vaccine card is certainly more reliable than someone saying, "hey, I had COVID, and I have natural immunity." Even if the person isn't lying, having COVID does not always result in immunity. https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/9/21-1042_article
>
> In our work place, you're either vaccinated, or you pass a COVID test before coming into the office, or you work from home until we re-open, if possible. If presence is required, then you have to vaccinate or test -- or get another job. Nobody has quit, and those working in the office praised the policy. It satisfies far more than it offends. Parents with babies (we had a recent baby boom -- I think five or six new babies) and those with chronic conditions are particularly happy.

Jay, didn't I just go over this with you? The rule in science is "publish or perish" This leads to the fact that 80% of all "studies" are irreproducible. The science publications on every level will not publish the study of someone else trying to reproduced a study to see if they are real. Sometimes with methods and techniques that are laughable on the surface, science publications opt to publish "new science" rather than test old. For instance: that CDC page showing large numbers of covid deaths states "Predicted (weighted) numbers of deaths" They have actual body counts so what is to be predicted or weighted? What that means is they are not presenting actual data but pure invention.

If you look up the ages of those who actually died, it does NOT look like a deadly disease but rather a bad flu season.

And worse yet, there is no elevated respiratory diseases after April 2020. And worse yet, the levels of respiratory disease were BELOW normal for most of 2021 and have only recently returned to normal - normal is NORMAL.

If you are attempting to support the unsupportable, why? Or are you simply practicing your legal defense?

I told you that I was the designer of the PCR automation. I'm not the sole voice crying in the wilderness. Anyone familiar with the science knows that you CANNOT specifically identify a corona virus with PCR. I have showed you Kary Mullis saying so. Do you believe Fauci knows more about that science than its inventor?

Here is the way it works, the attending MD writes the DEATH certificate. This is then turned over to the medical facility management. They need to only run a PCR test to show covid-19. This is an absolutely false test that would show a cabbage as covid-19 positive. But this give the hospital the semi-legal right to say that a man who was run over by a car died of covid-19 and collect $50,000 for reporting that single death. Those reports now add up to $3.5 Billion taken from the American pocket. Can you afford to continue paying for this?

On Wednesday, October 6, 2021 at 11:28:40 AM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
> "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 4:39:57 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 1:27:18 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >> > jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> writes:
> >> >
> >> > > On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 8:44:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> > >> On 10/5/2021 10:15 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >> > >> > "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 9:28:05 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
> >> > >> >>>
> >> > >> >>> Now that companies are firing employees that refuse to get
> >> > >> >>> vaccinated,
> >> > >> >>> and universities are expelling students that refuse to get
> >> > >> >>> vaccinated
> >> > >> >>> (other than those that have a valid medical reason for
> >> > >> >>> refusing), the
> >> > >> >>> percentages will start to rise in the U.S..
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> Maybe, possibly, if we are really lucky. BUT, even if the vaccination
> >> > >> >> rises due to the threats, it will be a miniscule minimal amount. 0.1%
> >> > >> >> each month or so. As you state we are at 56.3% fully vaccinated now.
> >> > >> >> If my 0.1% is accurate, it will take 15 years 7 months to reach that
> >> > >> >> mythical herd immunity percentage of 75%. 1 million, 2 million, 3
> >> > >> >> million more dead people? From a disease that is easily prevented
> >> > >> >> with an available vaccine. Is that winning?
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Except it's not prevented by the available vaccine. CDC agrees that
> >> > >> > vaccinated people can and do become infected and do spread
> >> > >> > the disease.
> >> > >> > The "mythical" herd immunity vaccination threshold is indeed mythical,
> >> > >> > there is no reason to think that covid would vanish even at 100%
> >> > >> > vaccination.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Successful human vaccines, such as smallpox, polio, measles, mumps,
> >> > >> > pertussis, &c produce "sterilizing immunity". The vaccinated do not
> >> > >> > become infected. The available covid vaccines do not work this way and
> >> > >> > hence are not comparable. Leaky vaccines like those for covid
> >> > >> > allow the
> >> > >> > virus to continue to evolve among the vaccinated, which has given rise
> >> > >> > to at least one remarkably lethal viral disease in chickens. Do a
> >> > >> > search for "Marek's disease".
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> +1
> >> > >> Which is why I have avoided calling the Pfizer/Moderna mRNA
> >> > >> products 'vaccine'. J&J is an actual vaccine of attenuated
> >> > >> virus.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> The mRNA jab promotes production of a blood-borne antibody.
> >> > >> An antibody, one of the body's defenses, but only one.
> >> > >> This is an important aspect of human immune response and is
> >> > >> effective for the (sometimes fatal)
> >> > >> vascular/cardiac/respiratory damage caused by a combination
> >> > >> of the virus and cysteine response. It does not promote
> >> > >> production of respiratory/mucosa antibodies (found in
> >> > >> 'natural' immunity) so you are exactly right. The mRNA shot
> >> > >> will likely keep you from dying but will not stop you from
> >> > >> contracting or spreading the CCP Wuhan product.
> >> > >
> >> > > "Natural immunity" isn't faring that well.
> >> > > https://news.yale.edu/2021/10/01/unvaccinated-reinfection-sars-cov-2-likely-study-finds
> >> > > Natural immunity and a vaccine appear to be the ticket, although one
> >> > > would prefer to skip being sick to start with. No vaccine is 100% and
> >> > > many are not effective forever. Flu vaccines are notoriously
> >> > > ineffective, but we still take them, and they prevent some infections.
> >> > Who is this "we"? Patients in the US are able to choose whether to get
> >> > a flu shot or not. They should be able to make a choice with respect to
> >> > covid as well. For healthy young people the covid vaccine is almost
> >> > certainly more dangerous, (albeit fairly safe), than infection with covid.
> >> Almost certainly? CDC says that vaccines are safer for young people
> >> than the disease, but maybe they are lying to us because they want
> >> to kill young people. Personally, I think we should be out to kill
> >> the old people to reduce the pressure on the SS/Medicare trusts.
> >
> > I read Radey's comments too and wondered. I've seen lots of stories
> > about kids catching Covid and some of them dying. Especially in
> > Mississippi and other anti vaccine Republican states that outlaw
> > masks. But I guess they are only kids so what, who cares. They can't
> > vote and give me money so...
> If you have any numbers on kids, say below 18, dying *of* covid, that
> might be informative. Stories, in this day and age, are increasingly
> just that.
The deaths of EVERYONE under 25 is perfectly normal

On 10/6/2021 3:01 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 6, 2021 at 11:28:40 AM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 4:39:57 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 1:27:18 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>> jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 8:44:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 10/5/2021 10:15 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 9:28:05 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Now that companies are firing employees that refuse to get
>>>>>>>>>> vaccinated,
>>>>>>>>>> and universities are expelling students that refuse to get
>>>>>>>>>> vaccinated
>>>>>>>>>> (other than those that have a valid medical reason for
>>>>>>>>>> refusing), the
>>>>>>>>>> percentages will start to rise in the U.S..
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Maybe, possibly, if we are really lucky. BUT, even if the vaccination
>>>>>>>>> rises due to the threats, it will be a miniscule minimal amount. 0.1%
>>>>>>>>> each month or so. As you state we are at 56.3% fully vaccinated now.
>>>>>>>>> If my 0.1% is accurate, it will take 15 years 7 months to reach that
>>>>>>>>> mythical herd immunity percentage of 75%. 1 million, 2 million, 3
>>>>>>>>> million more dead people? From a disease that is easily prevented
>>>>>>>>> with an available vaccine. Is that winning?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Except it's not prevented by the available vaccine. CDC agrees that
>>>>>>>> vaccinated people can and do become infected and do spread
>>>>>>>> the disease.
>>>>>>>> The "mythical" herd immunity vaccination threshold is indeed mythical,
>>>>>>>> there is no reason to think that covid would vanish even at 100%
>>>>>>>> vaccination.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Successful human vaccines, such as smallpox, polio, measles, mumps,
>>>>>>>> pertussis, &c produce "sterilizing immunity". The vaccinated do not
>>>>>>>> become infected. The available covid vaccines do not work this way and
>>>>>>>> hence are not comparable. Leaky vaccines like those for covid
>>>>>>>> allow the
>>>>>>>> virus to continue to evolve among the vaccinated, which has given rise
>>>>>>>> to at least one remarkably lethal viral disease in chickens. Do a
>>>>>>>> search for "Marek's disease".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>> Which is why I have avoided calling the Pfizer/Moderna mRNA
>>>>>>> products 'vaccine'. J&J is an actual vaccine of attenuated
>>>>>>> virus.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The mRNA jab promotes production of a blood-borne antibody.
>>>>>>> An antibody, one of the body's defenses, but only one.
>>>>>>> This is an important aspect of human immune response and is
>>>>>>> effective for the (sometimes fatal)
>>>>>>> vascular/cardiac/respiratory damage caused by a combination
>>>>>>> of the virus and cysteine response. It does not promote
>>>>>>> production of respiratory/mucosa antibodies (found in
>>>>>>> 'natural' immunity) so you are exactly right. The mRNA shot
>>>>>>> will likely keep you from dying but will not stop you from
>>>>>>> contracting or spreading the CCP Wuhan product.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Natural immunity" isn't faring that well.
>>>>>> https://news.yale.edu/2021/10/01/unvaccinated-reinfection-sars-cov-2-likely-study-finds
>>>>>> Natural immunity and a vaccine appear to be the ticket, although one
>>>>>> would prefer to skip being sick to start with. No vaccine is 100% and
>>>>>> many are not effective forever. Flu vaccines are notoriously
>>>>>> ineffective, but we still take them, and they prevent some infections.
>>>>> Who is this "we"? Patients in the US are able to choose whether to get
>>>>> a flu shot or not. They should be able to make a choice with respect to
>>>>> covid as well. For healthy young people the covid vaccine is almost
>>>>> certainly more dangerous, (albeit fairly safe), than infection with covid.
>>>> Almost certainly? CDC says that vaccines are safer for young people
>>>> than the disease, but maybe they are lying to us because they want
>>>> to kill young people. Personally, I think we should be out to kill
>>>> the old people to reduce the pressure on the SS/Medicare trusts.
>>>
>>> I read Radey's comments too and wondered. I've seen lots of stories
>>> about kids catching Covid and some of them dying. Especially in
>>> Mississippi and other anti vaccine Republican states that outlaw
>>> masks. But I guess they are only kids so what, who cares. They can't
>>> vote and give me money so...
>> If you have any numbers on kids, say below 18, dying *of* covid, that
>> might be informative. Stories, in this day and age, are increasingly
>> just that.
> The deaths of EVERYONE under 25 is perfectly normal
>

I didn't die at 25. Some close calls, but no.
(yes, I have been called abnormal)

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:

> On 10/5/2021 4:29 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>>
>>> On 10/5/2021 11:15 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Successful human vaccines, such as smallpox, polio, measles, mumps,
>>>> pertussis, &c produce "sterilizing immunity". The vaccinated do not
>>>> become infected. The available covid vaccines do not work this way and
>>>> hence are not comparable.
>>>
>>> Sorry to disagree with you, but I have a close and beloved family
>>> member who nearly died from a malady against which he was vaccinated.
>>>
>>> Also, a few years ago I had an extremely scary bronchial problem. My
>>> primary care physician was afraid I had whooping cough, even though we
>>> both knew I had been vaccinated against it. He said post-vaccination
>>> whooping cough is uncommon, but a definite possibility. (Fortunately,
>>> that was not my problem.)
>>>
>>> Then there are the many cases of post-vaccination shingles, and many
>>> other diseases. These things happen. Vaccines are not as reliable as
>>> light switches.
>>
>> I agree that no vaccine is 100% effective. However the covid vaccines
>> are remarkably bad compared to other widely prescribed, let alone
>> mandated, vaccines.
>
> So instead, the strategy should have been... what? We've heard here
> that it certainly shouldn't include masks or any restrictions
> affecting any business.
>
> Perhaps vitamin D?

Here we go again: We must do something, this is something, therefore we
must do this.

Maybe some rational cost/benefit analysis?

I still think Sweden had the right idea, and they have a lower age
adjusted excess mortality rate to show it -- lower than anywhere in
southern Europe and most of northern Europe, way lower than the US. And
they recently suspended the Moderna shot for anyone under 30 (along with
Denmark).

Back here, Vermont has the highest vaccinated rate of any state, and
they're not looking good for the winter. Cases, hospitalization, and
deaths are climbing. I can't wait to see the news stories when Texas
and Florida hit their winter covid low and the northeast takes over the
spotlight.

Covid is bad, and it has killed a lot of people, but it's not plague
bad, or smallpox bad, or Spanish flu bad. It's not as bad as measles,
mumps, or pertussis, which were endemic when you were a child. It's not
nearly as bad as malaria or tuberculosis, to name two diseases that are
still a great source of human misery and death. Maybe it's not worth
handing over every right we have in the vain hope that government can
make it go away.

On Wednesday, October 6, 2021 at 1:54:31 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/6/2021 3:01 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 6, 2021 at 11:28:40 AM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >> "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>
> >>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 4:39:57 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
> >>>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 1:27:18 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>>>> jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> writes:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 8:44:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 10/5/2021 10:15 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 9:28:05 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Now that companies are firing employees that refuse to get
> >>>>>>>>>> vaccinated,
> >>>>>>>>>> and universities are expelling students that refuse to get
> >>>>>>>>>> vaccinated
> >>>>>>>>>> (other than those that have a valid medical reason for
> >>>>>>>>>> refusing), the
> >>>>>>>>>> percentages will start to rise in the U.S..
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Maybe, possibly, if we are really lucky. BUT, even if the vaccination
> >>>>>>>>> rises due to the threats, it will be a miniscule minimal amount.. 0.1%
> >>>>>>>>> each month or so. As you state we are at 56.3% fully vaccinated now.
> >>>>>>>>> If my 0.1% is accurate, it will take 15 years 7 months to reach that
> >>>>>>>>> mythical herd immunity percentage of 75%. 1 million, 2 million, 3
> >>>>>>>>> million more dead people? From a disease that is easily prevented
> >>>>>>>>> with an available vaccine. Is that winning?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Except it's not prevented by the available vaccine. CDC agrees that
> >>>>>>>> vaccinated people can and do become infected and do spread
> >>>>>>>> the disease.
> >>>>>>>> The "mythical" herd immunity vaccination threshold is indeed mythical,
> >>>>>>>> there is no reason to think that covid would vanish even at 100%
> >>>>>>>> vaccination.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Successful human vaccines, such as smallpox, polio, measles, mumps,
> >>>>>>>> pertussis, &c produce "sterilizing immunity". The vaccinated do not
> >>>>>>>> become infected. The available covid vaccines do not work this way and
> >>>>>>>> hence are not comparable. Leaky vaccines like those for covid
> >>>>>>>> allow the
> >>>>>>>> virus to continue to evolve among the vaccinated, which has given rise
> >>>>>>>> to at least one remarkably lethal viral disease in chickens. Do a
> >>>>>>>> search for "Marek's disease".
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> +1
> >>>>>>> Which is why I have avoided calling the Pfizer/Moderna mRNA
> >>>>>>> products 'vaccine'. J&J is an actual vaccine of attenuated
> >>>>>>> virus.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The mRNA jab promotes production of a blood-borne antibody.
> >>>>>>> An antibody, one of the body's defenses, but only one.
> >>>>>>> This is an important aspect of human immune response and is
> >>>>>>> effective for the (sometimes fatal)
> >>>>>>> vascular/cardiac/respiratory damage caused by a combination
> >>>>>>> of the virus and cysteine response. It does not promote
> >>>>>>> production of respiratory/mucosa antibodies (found in
> >>>>>>> 'natural' immunity) so you are exactly right. The mRNA shot
> >>>>>>> will likely keep you from dying but will not stop you from
> >>>>>>> contracting or spreading the CCP Wuhan product.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "Natural immunity" isn't faring that well.
> >>>>>> https://news.yale.edu/2021/10/01/unvaccinated-reinfection-sars-cov-2-likely-study-finds
> >>>>>> Natural immunity and a vaccine appear to be the ticket, although one
> >>>>>> would prefer to skip being sick to start with. No vaccine is 100% and
> >>>>>> many are not effective forever. Flu vaccines are notoriously
> >>>>>> ineffective, but we still take them, and they prevent some infections.
> >>>>> Who is this "we"? Patients in the US are able to choose whether to get
> >>>>> a flu shot or not. They should be able to make a choice with respect to
> >>>>> covid as well. For healthy young people the covid vaccine is almost
> >>>>> certainly more dangerous, (albeit fairly safe), than infection with covid.
> >>>> Almost certainly? CDC says that vaccines are safer for young people
> >>>> than the disease, but maybe they are lying to us because they want
> >>>> to kill young people. Personally, I think we should be out to kill
> >>>> the old people to reduce the pressure on the SS/Medicare trusts.
> >>>
> >>> I read Radey's comments too and wondered. I've seen lots of stories
> >>> about kids catching Covid and some of them dying. Especially in
> >>> Mississippi and other anti vaccine Republican states that outlaw
> >>> masks. But I guess they are only kids so what, who cares. They can't
> >>> vote and give me money so...
> >> If you have any numbers on kids, say below 18, dying *of* covid, that
> >> might be informative. Stories, in this day and age, are increasingly
> >> just that.
> > The deaths of EVERYONE under 25 is perfectly normal
> >
> I didn't die at 25. Some close calls, but no.
> (yes, I have been called abnormal)

I remember crawling forward from the tail gunners position to the front cabin after a bomb run. I didn't know that in case we had shrapnel from the anti-aircraft that might have penetrated a bomb, they left the bomb doors open to air out the bays and dry the HE which was liquid. The shelf you had to crawl on was maybe 6" wide and the sides of the aircraft were circular so that it would tip you out and over he bomb bays and to move forward you would stick a finger in forward to where a lateral rib crossed over a for and aft rib. This left a space about the size of a finger and a half where you could maintain your balance.

I wasn't worried since I had crawled fore and aft so many times before but it was 5,000 feet down. I was anxious until I got past the bomb bays until I got to the main fuel tank where the main pressure bulkhead was and the pressure door that I got to and re-entered that main cabin. I can't remember but I wondered what the bomber and the navigators reaction were when I told them about that. I don't think they ever thought about that. They would have NEVER crawled on the shelf. And I don't think that they even realized that the pilot had control of those doors. They were powered wide open but unpowered then hung slack. Then they would be powered closed and locked.

I was maybe 19 then. Probably too stupid to know when to be afraid. But then again what good would it be for me to be afraid. Once the pilot sent me back to see if the gunner was OK i had to do the round trip. The gunner's pressurized capsule wasn't big enough for two.

In the G and H model they moved the gunner back into the cabin and now it has been eliminated completely and is automated completely. I'll bet that they also eliminated the bomber and navigator since military grade GPS could accomplish their jobs. ten to one they've also automated the electronic counter measures leaving a B52 with a crew of two. That is a hell of a lot less of a loss in case someone manages to hit them. Fighters now have the ability to fly as far and as high as a B52. Our latest 6th generation fighter looks to me to be an exact copy of the Russian SU-57 which can fly sideways without stalling. The Russian's planes are pretty much superior to American fighters though the weapons and electronics are no match. These are the people we want on our side and not the stupid asses at the pentagon making enemies in order to expand wars which is how officers get ahead.

On 10/6/2021 5:16 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 6, 2021 at 1:54:31 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 10/6/2021 3:01 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, October 6, 2021 at 11:28:40 AM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 4:39:57 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
>>>>>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 1:27:18 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>> jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 8:44:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 10/5/2021 10:15 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 9:28:05 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Now that companies are firing employees that refuse to get
>>>>>>>>>>>> vaccinated,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and universities are expelling students that refuse to get
>>>>>>>>>>>> vaccinated
>>>>>>>>>>>> (other than those that have a valid medical reason for
>>>>>>>>>>>> refusing), the
>>>>>>>>>>>> percentages will start to rise in the U.S..
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe, possibly, if we are really lucky. BUT, even if the vaccination
>>>>>>>>>>> rises due to the threats, it will be a miniscule minimal amount. 0.1%
>>>>>>>>>>> each month or so. As you state we are at 56.3% fully vaccinated now.
>>>>>>>>>>> If my 0.1% is accurate, it will take 15 years 7 months to reach that
>>>>>>>>>>> mythical herd immunity percentage of 75%. 1 million, 2 million, 3
>>>>>>>>>>> million more dead people? From a disease that is easily prevented
>>>>>>>>>>> with an available vaccine. Is that winning?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Except it's not prevented by the available vaccine. CDC agrees that
>>>>>>>>>> vaccinated people can and do become infected and do spread
>>>>>>>>>> the disease.
>>>>>>>>>> The "mythical" herd immunity vaccination threshold is indeed mythical,
>>>>>>>>>> there is no reason to think that covid would vanish even at 100%
>>>>>>>>>> vaccination.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Successful human vaccines, such as smallpox, polio, measles, mumps,
>>>>>>>>>> pertussis, &c produce "sterilizing immunity". The vaccinated do not
>>>>>>>>>> become infected. The available covid vaccines do not work this way and
>>>>>>>>>> hence are not comparable. Leaky vaccines like those for covid
>>>>>>>>>> allow the
>>>>>>>>>> virus to continue to evolve among the vaccinated, which has given rise
>>>>>>>>>> to at least one remarkably lethal viral disease in chickens. Do a
>>>>>>>>>> search for "Marek's disease".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>>>> Which is why I have avoided calling the Pfizer/Moderna mRNA
>>>>>>>>> products 'vaccine'. J&J is an actual vaccine of attenuated
>>>>>>>>> virus.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The mRNA jab promotes production of a blood-borne antibody.
>>>>>>>>> An antibody, one of the body's defenses, but only one.
>>>>>>>>> This is an important aspect of human immune response and is
>>>>>>>>> effective for the (sometimes fatal)
>>>>>>>>> vascular/cardiac/respiratory damage caused by a combination
>>>>>>>>> of the virus and cysteine response. It does not promote
>>>>>>>>> production of respiratory/mucosa antibodies (found in
>>>>>>>>> 'natural' immunity) so you are exactly right. The mRNA shot
>>>>>>>>> will likely keep you from dying but will not stop you from
>>>>>>>>> contracting or spreading the CCP Wuhan product.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Natural immunity" isn't faring that well.
>>>>>>>> https://news.yale.edu/2021/10/01/unvaccinated-reinfection-sars-cov-2-likely-study-finds
>>>>>>>> Natural immunity and a vaccine appear to be the ticket, although one
>>>>>>>> would prefer to skip being sick to start with. No vaccine is 100% and
>>>>>>>> many are not effective forever. Flu vaccines are notoriously
>>>>>>>> ineffective, but we still take them, and they prevent some infections.
>>>>>>> Who is this "we"? Patients in the US are able to choose whether to get
>>>>>>> a flu shot or not. They should be able to make a choice with respect to
>>>>>>> covid as well. For healthy young people the covid vaccine is almost
>>>>>>> certainly more dangerous, (albeit fairly safe), than infection with covid.
>>>>>> Almost certainly? CDC says that vaccines are safer for young people
>>>>>> than the disease, but maybe they are lying to us because they want
>>>>>> to kill young people. Personally, I think we should be out to kill
>>>>>> the old people to reduce the pressure on the SS/Medicare trusts.
>>>>>
>>>>> I read Radey's comments too and wondered. I've seen lots of stories
>>>>> about kids catching Covid and some of them dying. Especially in
>>>>> Mississippi and other anti vaccine Republican states that outlaw
>>>>> masks. But I guess they are only kids so what, who cares. They can't
>>>>> vote and give me money so...
>>>> If you have any numbers on kids, say below 18, dying *of* covid, that
>>>> might be informative. Stories, in this day and age, are increasingly
>>>> just that.
>>> The deaths of EVERYONE under 25 is perfectly normal
>>>
>> I didn't die at 25. Some close calls, but no.
>> (yes, I have been called abnormal)
>
> I remember crawling forward from the tail gunners position to the front cabin after a bomb run. I didn't know that in case we had shrapnel from the anti-aircraft that might have penetrated a bomb, they left the bomb doors open to air out the bays and dry the HE which was liquid. The shelf you had to crawl on was maybe 6" wide and the sides of the aircraft were circular so that it would tip you out and over he bomb bays and to move forward you would stick a finger in forward to where a lateral rib crossed over a for and aft rib. This left a space about the size of a finger and a half where you could maintain your balance.
>
> I wasn't worried since I had crawled fore and aft so many times before but it was 5,000 feet down. I was anxious until I got past the bomb bays until I got to the main fuel tank where the main pressure bulkhead was and the pressure door that I got to and re-entered that main cabin. I can't remember but I wondered what the bomber and the navigators reaction were when I told them about that. I don't think they ever thought about that. They would have NEVER crawled on the shelf. And I don't think that they even realized that the pilot had control of those doors. They were powered wide open but unpowered then hung slack. Then they would be powered closed and locked.
>
> I was maybe 19 then. Probably too stupid to know when to be afraid. But then again what good would it be for me to be afraid. Once the pilot sent me back to see if the gunner was OK i had to do the round trip. The gunner's pressurized capsule wasn't big enough for two.
>
> In the G and H model they moved the gunner back into the cabin and now it has been eliminated completely and is automated completely. I'll bet that they also eliminated the bomber and navigator since military grade GPS could accomplish their jobs. ten to one they've also automated the electronic counter measures leaving a B52 with a crew of two. That is a hell of a lot less of a loss in case someone manages to hit them. Fighters now have the ability to fly as far and as high as a B52. Our latest 6th generation fighter looks to me to be an exact copy of the Russian SU-57 which can fly sideways without stalling. The Russian's planes are pretty much superior to American fighters though the weapons and electronics are no match. These are the people we want on our side and not the stupid asses at the pentagon making enemies in order to expand wars which is how officers get ahead.
>

On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 07:24:57 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 5:49:15 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>>
>>
>> Yes I hear your argument about the surgical masks, but Tommy, I have
>> been treated by a surgeon in, lets see, The US Air Force, several
>> times, Japan, Vietnam, Indonesia, Thailand and Singapore and in every
>> case the sturgeon wore a mask. But you tell us that is unnecessary?
>>
>> And, you tell us that there have hardly been any Covid deaths at all
>> yet the CDC lists something like 725,000 deaths due to the disease.
>> And, it might be noted that the Dr Fauci, the Big Boss, is paid
>> something like a half a million dollars a year while you seem to be
>> squeaking by on the government dole and whatever you can scrounge
>> buying second hand junk on the Internet.
>>
>> Why don't you call up Biden and tell him how you can do Fauci's so
>> much cheaper? You can stand there and sing the song about "Leaving on
>> a jet plane" while you are waiting for the transportation to arrive.
>>
>> buffoon - a rude or vulgar fool, a person who amuses others by
>> ridiculous behavior.
>I find it interesting that you simply do not answer the facts, you simply repeat your stupid argument, Maybe you should pal up with Jay and quote profits of a mortuary company being positive as proof that people died rather than the profits of the industry as a whole.
>
Tommy, as I have repeatedly told you I don't live in some woebegone
place where guns are banging and roaring all night, people sleeping on
the streets and crime is rampant.

I live in Thailand where there are no, repeat, no, mortuary
companies.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, October 6, 2021 at 3:33:25 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/6/2021 5:16 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 6, 2021 at 1:54:31 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 10/6/2021 3:01 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, October 6, 2021 at 11:28:40 AM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>>> "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 4:39:57 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
> >>>>>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 1:27:18 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>>>>>> jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> writes:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 8:44:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On 10/5/2021 10:15 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 9:28:05 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Now that companies are firing employees that refuse to get
> >>>>>>>>>>>> vaccinated,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and universities are expelling students that refuse to get
> >>>>>>>>>>>> vaccinated
> >>>>>>>>>>>> (other than those that have a valid medical reason for
> >>>>>>>>>>>> refusing), the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> percentages will start to rise in the U.S..
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Maybe, possibly, if we are really lucky. BUT, even if the vaccination
> >>>>>>>>>>> rises due to the threats, it will be a miniscule minimal amount. 0.1%
> >>>>>>>>>>> each month or so. As you state we are at 56.3% fully vaccinated now.
> >>>>>>>>>>> If my 0.1% is accurate, it will take 15 years 7 months to reach that
> >>>>>>>>>>> mythical herd immunity percentage of 75%. 1 million, 2 million, 3
> >>>>>>>>>>> million more dead people? From a disease that is easily prevented
> >>>>>>>>>>> with an available vaccine. Is that winning?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Except it's not prevented by the available vaccine. CDC agrees that
> >>>>>>>>>> vaccinated people can and do become infected and do spread
> >>>>>>>>>> the disease.
> >>>>>>>>>> The "mythical" herd immunity vaccination threshold is indeed mythical,
> >>>>>>>>>> there is no reason to think that covid would vanish even at 100%
> >>>>>>>>>> vaccination.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Successful human vaccines, such as smallpox, polio, measles, mumps,
> >>>>>>>>>> pertussis, &c produce "sterilizing immunity". The vaccinated do not
> >>>>>>>>>> become infected. The available covid vaccines do not work this way and
> >>>>>>>>>> hence are not comparable. Leaky vaccines like those for covid
> >>>>>>>>>> allow the
> >>>>>>>>>> virus to continue to evolve among the vaccinated, which has given rise
> >>>>>>>>>> to at least one remarkably lethal viral disease in chickens. Do a
> >>>>>>>>>> search for "Marek's disease".
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> +1
> >>>>>>>>> Which is why I have avoided calling the Pfizer/Moderna mRNA
> >>>>>>>>> products 'vaccine'. J&J is an actual vaccine of attenuated
> >>>>>>>>> virus.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The mRNA jab promotes production of a blood-borne antibody.
> >>>>>>>>> An antibody, one of the body's defenses, but only one.
> >>>>>>>>> This is an important aspect of human immune response and is
> >>>>>>>>> effective for the (sometimes fatal)
> >>>>>>>>> vascular/cardiac/respiratory damage caused by a combination
> >>>>>>>>> of the virus and cysteine response. It does not promote
> >>>>>>>>> production of respiratory/mucosa antibodies (found in
> >>>>>>>>> 'natural' immunity) so you are exactly right. The mRNA shot
> >>>>>>>>> will likely keep you from dying but will not stop you from
> >>>>>>>>> contracting or spreading the CCP Wuhan product.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> "Natural immunity" isn't faring that well.
> >>>>>>>> https://news.yale.edu/2021/10/01/unvaccinated-reinfection-sars-cov-2-likely-study-finds
> >>>>>>>> Natural immunity and a vaccine appear to be the ticket, although one
> >>>>>>>> would prefer to skip being sick to start with. No vaccine is 100% and
> >>>>>>>> many are not effective forever. Flu vaccines are notoriously
> >>>>>>>> ineffective, but we still take them, and they prevent some infections.
> >>>>>>> Who is this "we"? Patients in the US are able to choose whether to get
> >>>>>>> a flu shot or not. They should be able to make a choice with respect to
> >>>>>>> covid as well. For healthy young people the covid vaccine is almost
> >>>>>>> certainly more dangerous, (albeit fairly safe), than infection with covid.
> >>>>>> Almost certainly? CDC says that vaccines are safer for young people
> >>>>>> than the disease, but maybe they are lying to us because they want
> >>>>>> to kill young people. Personally, I think we should be out to kill
> >>>>>> the old people to reduce the pressure on the SS/Medicare trusts.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I read Radey's comments too and wondered. I've seen lots of stories
> >>>>> about kids catching Covid and some of them dying. Especially in
> >>>>> Mississippi and other anti vaccine Republican states that outlaw
> >>>>> masks. But I guess they are only kids so what, who cares. They can't
> >>>>> vote and give me money so...
> >>>> If you have any numbers on kids, say below 18, dying *of* covid, that
> >>>> might be informative. Stories, in this day and age, are increasingly
> >>>> just that.
> >>> The deaths of EVERYONE under 25 is perfectly normal
> >>>
> >> I didn't die at 25. Some close calls, but no.
> >> (yes, I have been called abnormal)
> >
> > I remember crawling forward from the tail gunners position to the front cabin after a bomb run. I didn't know that in case we had shrapnel from the anti-aircraft that might have penetrated a bomb, they left the bomb doors open to air out the bays and dry the HE which was liquid. The shelf you had to crawl on was maybe 6" wide and the sides of the aircraft were circular so that it would tip you out and over he bomb bays and to move forward you would stick a finger in forward to where a lateral rib crossed over a for and aft rib. This left a space about the size of a finger and a half where you could maintain your balance.
> >
> > I wasn't worried since I had crawled fore and aft so many times before but it was 5,000 feet down. I was anxious until I got past the bomb bays until I got to the main fuel tank where the main pressure bulkhead was and the pressure door that I got to and re-entered that main cabin. I can't remember but I wondered what the bomber and the navigators reaction were when I told them about that. I don't think they ever thought about that. They would have NEVER crawled on the shelf. And I don't think that they even realized that the pilot had control of those doors. They were powered wide open but unpowered then hung slack. Then they would be powered closed and locked.
> >
> > I was maybe 19 then. Probably too stupid to know when to be afraid. But then again what good would it be for me to be afraid. Once the pilot sent me back to see if the gunner was OK i had to do the round trip. The gunner's pressurized capsule wasn't big enough for two.
> >
> > In the G and H model they moved the gunner back into the cabin and now it has been eliminated completely and is automated completely. I'll bet that they also eliminated the bomber and navigator since military grade GPS could accomplish their jobs. ten to one they've also automated the electronic counter measures leaving a B52 with a crew of two. That is a hell of a lot less of a loss in case someone manages to hit them. Fighters now have the ability to fly as far and as high as a B52. Our latest 6th generation fighter looks to me to be an exact copy of the Russian SU-57 which can fly sideways without stalling. The Russian's planes are pretty much superior to American fighters though the weapons and electronics are no match. These are the people we want on our side and not the stupid asses at the pentagon making enemies in order to expand wars which is how officers get ahead.
> >
> Walking on this? Yikes!
>
> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-j4MJUWU0f4o/VOOK-YD_1nI/AAAAAAAACB4/nKhb9ojuU5c/s1600/CIMG0635.JPG

On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 10:54:04 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 10/6/2021 9:53 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 10/5/2021 11:03 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 7:36:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 10/5/2021 7:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>
>>>
>>> ???????  What serious deficiencies are there with the Moderna and
>>> Pfizer vaccines?  I'm not aware of any.  180 million have been given
>>> in the USA.  I'm pretty sure if millions or even hundreds of thousands
>>> of people were dying or getting seriously sick from the vaccine, we
>>> would have heard the stories.  Can't keep that hidden.
>>>
>>> As for hydrochloroquine and monoclonal antibodies, they are treatments
>>> for Covid.  And I am not sure there has been definitive tests on hydro
>>> to prove it really works on Covid or not.  The antibodies do work.
>>> But these are TREATMENTS for Covid.  Vaccines PREVENT Covid.  Its
>>> always better to take a really cheap easy simple vaccine to PREVENT a
>>> disease than it is to use an expensive complicated TREATMENT for a
>>> disease.  I'm sure there are many marvelous medical ways to treat and
>>> cure lung and liver cancer.  But isn't it better to just not smoke and
>>> not drink to prevent lung and liver cancer?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What serious deficiencies
>>>
>>>>
>>>> As My Shouman noted earlier, "it's hard to account for this
>>>> in a charitable manner." to which I added my +1. At some
>>>> point a less than charitable conclusion remains after every
>>>> other case has been disproved.> What serious deficiencies
>>
>>
>>> "What serious deficiencies" ?
>>
>>
>> As discussed, endlessly both here and in the popular science press for
>> months, the mRNA shots incite one antibody which is very effective in
>> preventing the typical arterial, heart and lung damage which can be
>> fatal. This is a good thing. They are also the first two ever in history
>> things of this type. That's remarkable and deserves credit.
>>
>> They do not, however replicate the many other defenses (several types of
>> T- and B-cells) humans muster (some known, probably others yet unknown)
>> including notably respiratory/mucus antibodies such that with either
>> mRNA shot you probably will not die (positive effect) but you'll still
>> probably become reinfected and contagious (not so good).
>
>It occurs to me that people are still free to get purposely infected
>with COVID if they decide they want better immunity. Some making that
>choice may die, and others may lose their ability to smell and taste.
>Others may find themselves with "long COVID" and/or other long term
>problems. But they'll have more antibodies!
>
>Those folks might have a problem of complying with vaccination mandates.
>But as I understand it, vaccination after COVID infection causes only
>the mildest discomfort. And most vaccination "mandates" are not really
>that; instead, they are mandates to _either_ get vaccinated or get
>frequent tests.
>
>Finally, I think a company owner should be free to mandate that his
>workers and/or his customers produce proof of vaccination. Those who
>refuse can certainly choose to go elsewhere to work or to shop.
>
>Freedom!

Only in America (:-)

Here, if a company's employees come down with the virus they close the
company until it can be proved that the company has been completely
disinfected. Very costly compared with the free vaccinations offered
by the government.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 10/6/2021 5:34 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski writes:
>
>>
>>
>> So instead, the strategy should have been... what? We've heard here
>> that it certainly shouldn't include masks or any restrictions
>> affecting any business.
>>
>> Perhaps vitamin D?
>
> Here we go again: We must do something, this is something, therefore we
> must do this.
>
> Maybe some rational cost/benefit analysis?

I very frequently think in terms of cost/benefit analysis (or benefits
vs. detriments). But it's a very difficult thing to analyze when faced
with something as new as COVID, especially in the very beginning. That's
when the very craziest ideas were being pushed by amateurs. And they
certainly weren't doing that analysis.

> I still think Sweden had the right idea, and they have a lower age
> adjusted excess mortality rate to show it -- lower than anywhere in
> southern Europe and most of northern Europe, way lower than the US.

Of course, there's serious disagreement on Sweden's approach. See
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1113834/cumulative-coronavirus-deaths-in-the-nordics/
and their per capita data doesn't look any better.
https://www.businessinsider.com/sweden-covid-no-lockdown-strategy-failed-higher-death-rate-2021-8

> Back here, Vermont has the highest vaccinated rate of any state, and
> they're not looking good for the winter. Cases, hospitalization, and
> deaths are climbing. I can't wait to see the news stories when Texas
> and Florida hit their winter covid low and the northeast takes over the
> spotlight.

We'll see. The delta surge seems to be past it's peak, and the reasons
are poorly understood. Again, this thing is new.

> Covid is bad, and it has killed a lot of people, but it's not plague
> bad, or smallpox bad, or Spanish flu bad.

I'd say the major difference is not the infectious agent; it's the
modern response using knowledge and science. If COVID had hit hundreds
of years earlier, it may well have been as bad as those diseases. Also,
I'm not particularly swayed by arguments on many topics that go "Other
things are worse, so quit fussing." By that logic, only the world's #1
most pressing problem gets any attention.

> Maybe it's not worth
> handing over every right we have in the vain hope that government can
> make it go away.

That's hyperbole. Nobody has given away every right. You're asked to
wear a mask sometimes, and to either get a shot or get tested. You're
not being tortured or marched into battle.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 15:26:58 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 10/6/2021 2:30 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski writes:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And dammit, Mary Mallon* should have been allowed to work as a cook!
>>> Freedom!
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon
>>>
>>> (* AKA Typhoid Mary)
>>
>> Not quite the same. In the present case those vaccinated against covid
>> seem to be more of a danger to the unvaccinated than vice versa. The
>> vaccinated are currently most of the un- or pre-symptomatic carriers.
>
>Got documentation of that "more of a danger" point? It's new to me.

What is interesting is that everyone posting here has received
immunization, which is mandatory in all States and most foreign
countries before the little brats enter school. Why the loud outcries
now.

The numbers I see are "Reported Deaths" after receiving a vaccination
is 15,937 and 394,690,000 vaccination shots given. Which seems to say
that some 0.004% possibly die from receiving the vaccination and the
CDC seems to report a death rate due to the virus of 2%... so
..02/.00004 seems to show that one is 500 times more likely to die from
not getting the shot then one is from getting the shot.

I haven't checked the numbers but I suspect it is more dangerious to
walk down the side of the road then it is to get an immunization shot.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 06 Oct 2021 17:34:43 -0400, Radey Shouman
<shouman@comcast.net> wrote:

>Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>
>> On 10/5/2021 4:29 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 10/5/2021 11:15 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Successful human vaccines, such as smallpox, polio, measles, mumps,
>>>>> pertussis, &c produce "sterilizing immunity". The vaccinated do not
>>>>> become infected. The available covid vaccines do not work this way and
>>>>> hence are not comparable.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry to disagree with you, but I have a close and beloved family
>>>> member who nearly died from a malady against which he was vaccinated.
>>>>
>>>> Also, a few years ago I had an extremely scary bronchial problem. My
>>>> primary care physician was afraid I had whooping cough, even though we
>>>> both knew I had been vaccinated against it. He said post-vaccination
>>>> whooping cough is uncommon, but a definite possibility. (Fortunately,
>>>> that was not my problem.)
>>>>
>>>> Then there are the many cases of post-vaccination shingles, and many
>>>> other diseases. These things happen. Vaccines are not as reliable as
>>>> light switches.
>>>
>>> I agree that no vaccine is 100% effective. However the covid vaccines
>>> are remarkably bad compared to other widely prescribed, let alone
>>> mandated, vaccines.
>>
>> So instead, the strategy should have been... what? We've heard here
>> that it certainly shouldn't include masks or any restrictions
>> affecting any business.
>>
>> Perhaps vitamin D?
>
>Here we go again: We must do something, this is something, therefore we
>must do this.
>
>Maybe some rational cost/benefit analysis?
>
>I still think Sweden had the right idea, and they have a lower age
>adjusted excess mortality rate to show it -- lower than anywhere in
>southern Europe and most of northern Europe, way lower than the US. And
>they recently suspended the Moderna shot for anyone under 30 (along with
>Denmark).
>
>Back here, Vermont has the highest vaccinated rate of any state, and
>they're not looking good for the winter. Cases, hospitalization, and
>deaths are climbing. I can't wait to see the news stories when Texas
>and Florida hit their winter covid low and the northeast takes over the
>spotlight.
>
>Covid is bad, and it has killed a lot of people, but it's not plague
>bad, or smallpox bad, or Spanish flu bad. It's not as bad as measles,
>mumps, or pertussis, which were endemic when you were a child. It's not
>nearly as bad as malaria or tuberculosis, to name two diseases that are
>still a great source of human misery and death. Maybe it's not worth
>handing over every right we have in the vain hope that government can
>make it go away.
>

The question really is, "what should we do?"

Should precautions, to the best of our current knowledge, be taken? Or
should we just ignore everything an do as we please?

And, supposing that the public should elect the second alternative
and, oh say, 2 million die of the disease would the public admit that
they had just "shot themselves in the foot" or would they be weeping
and crying and hollering, "Why didn't the government DO something?

By the way, this morning's news has it that the UN is advocating that
all the kids in Africa should receive the malaria vaccine.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 15:16:05 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, October 6, 2021 at 1:54:31 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 10/6/2021 3:01 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, October 6, 2021 at 11:28:40 AM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> >> "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
>> >>
>> >>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 4:39:57 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
>> >>>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 1:27:18 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> >>>>> jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> writes:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 8:44:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>>>>>> On 10/5/2021 10:15 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 9:28:05 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Now that companies are firing employees that refuse to get
>> >>>>>>>>>> vaccinated,
>> >>>>>>>>>> and universities are expelling students that refuse to get
>> >>>>>>>>>> vaccinated
>> >>>>>>>>>> (other than those that have a valid medical reason for
>> >>>>>>>>>> refusing), the
>> >>>>>>>>>> percentages will start to rise in the U.S..
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Maybe, possibly, if we are really lucky. BUT, even if the vaccination
>> >>>>>>>>> rises due to the threats, it will be a miniscule minimal amount. 0.1%
>> >>>>>>>>> each month or so. As you state we are at 56.3% fully vaccinated now.
>> >>>>>>>>> If my 0.1% is accurate, it will take 15 years 7 months to reach that
>> >>>>>>>>> mythical herd immunity percentage of 75%. 1 million, 2 million, 3
>> >>>>>>>>> million more dead people? From a disease that is easily prevented
>> >>>>>>>>> with an available vaccine. Is that winning?
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Except it's not prevented by the available vaccine. CDC agrees that
>> >>>>>>>> vaccinated people can and do become infected and do spread
>> >>>>>>>> the disease.
>> >>>>>>>> The "mythical" herd immunity vaccination threshold is indeed mythical,
>> >>>>>>>> there is no reason to think that covid would vanish even at 100%
>> >>>>>>>> vaccination.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Successful human vaccines, such as smallpox, polio, measles, mumps,
>> >>>>>>>> pertussis, &c produce "sterilizing immunity". The vaccinated do not
>> >>>>>>>> become infected. The available covid vaccines do not work this way and
>> >>>>>>>> hence are not comparable. Leaky vaccines like those for covid
>> >>>>>>>> allow the
>> >>>>>>>> virus to continue to evolve among the vaccinated, which has given rise
>> >>>>>>>> to at least one remarkably lethal viral disease in chickens. Do a
>> >>>>>>>> search for "Marek's disease".
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> +1
>> >>>>>>> Which is why I have avoided calling the Pfizer/Moderna mRNA
>> >>>>>>> products 'vaccine'. J&J is an actual vaccine of attenuated
>> >>>>>>> virus.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> The mRNA jab promotes production of a blood-borne antibody.
>> >>>>>>> An antibody, one of the body's defenses, but only one.
>> >>>>>>> This is an important aspect of human immune response and is
>> >>>>>>> effective for the (sometimes fatal)
>> >>>>>>> vascular/cardiac/respiratory damage caused by a combination
>> >>>>>>> of the virus and cysteine response. It does not promote
>> >>>>>>> production of respiratory/mucosa antibodies (found in
>> >>>>>>> 'natural' immunity) so you are exactly right. The mRNA shot
>> >>>>>>> will likely keep you from dying but will not stop you from
>> >>>>>>> contracting or spreading the CCP Wuhan product.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> "Natural immunity" isn't faring that well.
>> >>>>>> https://news.yale.edu/2021/10/01/unvaccinated-reinfection-sars-cov-2-likely-study-finds
>> >>>>>> Natural immunity and a vaccine appear to be the ticket, although one
>> >>>>>> would prefer to skip being sick to start with. No vaccine is 100% and
>> >>>>>> many are not effective forever. Flu vaccines are notoriously
>> >>>>>> ineffective, but we still take them, and they prevent some infections.
>> >>>>> Who is this "we"? Patients in the US are able to choose whether to get
>> >>>>> a flu shot or not. They should be able to make a choice with respect to
>> >>>>> covid as well. For healthy young people the covid vaccine is almost
>> >>>>> certainly more dangerous, (albeit fairly safe), than infection with covid.
>> >>>> Almost certainly? CDC says that vaccines are safer for young people
>> >>>> than the disease, but maybe they are lying to us because they want
>> >>>> to kill young people. Personally, I think we should be out to kill
>> >>>> the old people to reduce the pressure on the SS/Medicare trusts.
>> >>>
>> >>> I read Radey's comments too and wondered. I've seen lots of stories
>> >>> about kids catching Covid and some of them dying. Especially in
>> >>> Mississippi and other anti vaccine Republican states that outlaw
>> >>> masks. But I guess they are only kids so what, who cares. They can't
>> >>> vote and give me money so...
>> >> If you have any numbers on kids, say below 18, dying *of* covid, that
>> >> might be informative. Stories, in this day and age, are increasingly
>> >> just that.
>> > The deaths of EVERYONE under 25 is perfectly normal
>> >
>> I didn't die at 25. Some close calls, but no.
>> (yes, I have been called abnormal)
>
>I remember crawling forward from the tail gunners position to the front cabin after a bomb run. I didn't know that in case we had shrapnel from the anti-aircraft that might have penetrated a bomb, they left the bomb doors open to air out the bays and dry the HE which was liquid. The shelf you had to crawl on was maybe 6" wide and the sides of the aircraft were circular so that it would tip you out and over he bomb bays and to move forward you would stick a finger in forward to where a lateral rib crossed over a for and aft rib. This left a space about the size of a finger and a half where you could maintain your balance.

Tommy, by your own admission you are a liar. You have told us all
about how you were a helper for a more skilled worker and how you and
your mate fixed all those things that the "stars" couldn't fix and
now, suddenly you have become a tail gunner.

As I have said, your stores might go over big with the other drunks
down at the VFW but for somebody that actually was there you come
across as just a silly fool, trying to tell everyone what a hero you
were.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 06 Oct 2021 14:28:38 -0400, Radey Shouman
<shouman@comcast.net> wrote:

>"russellseaton1@yahoo.com" <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 4:39:57 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 1:27:18 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>> > jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> writes:
>>> >
>>> > > On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 8:44:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>> > >> On 10/5/2021 10:15 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>> > >> > "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 9:28:05 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
>>> > >> >>>
>>> > >> >>> Now that companies are firing employees that refuse to get
>>> > >> >>> vaccinated,
>>> > >> >>> and universities are expelling students that refuse to get
>>> > >> >>> vaccinated
>>> > >> >>> (other than those that have a valid medical reason for
>>> > >> >>> refusing), the
>>> > >> >>> percentages will start to rise in the U.S..
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >> Maybe, possibly, if we are really lucky. BUT, even if the vaccination
>>> > >> >> rises due to the threats, it will be a miniscule minimal amount. 0.1%
>>> > >> >> each month or so. As you state we are at 56.3% fully vaccinated now.
>>> > >> >> If my 0.1% is accurate, it will take 15 years 7 months to reach that
>>> > >> >> mythical herd immunity percentage of 75%. 1 million, 2 million, 3
>>> > >> >> million more dead people? From a disease that is easily prevented
>>> > >> >> with an available vaccine. Is that winning?
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> > Except it's not prevented by the available vaccine. CDC agrees that
>>> > >> > vaccinated people can and do become infected and do spread
>>> > >> > the disease.
>>> > >> > The "mythical" herd immunity vaccination threshold is indeed mythical,
>>> > >> > there is no reason to think that covid would vanish even at 100%
>>> > >> > vaccination.
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> > Successful human vaccines, such as smallpox, polio, measles, mumps,
>>> > >> > pertussis, &c produce "sterilizing immunity". The vaccinated do not
>>> > >> > become infected. The available covid vaccines do not work this way and
>>> > >> > hence are not comparable. Leaky vaccines like those for covid
>>> > >> > allow the
>>> > >> > virus to continue to evolve among the vaccinated, which has given rise
>>> > >> > to at least one remarkably lethal viral disease in chickens. Do a
>>> > >> > search for "Marek's disease".
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> +1
>>> > >> Which is why I have avoided calling the Pfizer/Moderna mRNA
>>> > >> products 'vaccine'. J&J is an actual vaccine of attenuated
>>> > >> virus.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> The mRNA jab promotes production of a blood-borne antibody.
>>> > >> An antibody, one of the body's defenses, but only one.
>>> > >> This is an important aspect of human immune response and is
>>> > >> effective for the (sometimes fatal)
>>> > >> vascular/cardiac/respiratory damage caused by a combination
>>> > >> of the virus and cysteine response. It does not promote
>>> > >> production of respiratory/mucosa antibodies (found in
>>> > >> 'natural' immunity) so you are exactly right. The mRNA shot
>>> > >> will likely keep you from dying but will not stop you from
>>> > >> contracting or spreading the CCP Wuhan product.
>>> > >
>>> > > "Natural immunity" isn't faring that well.
>>> > > https://news.yale.edu/2021/10/01/unvaccinated-reinfection-sars-cov-2-likely-study-finds
>>> > > Natural immunity and a vaccine appear to be the ticket, although one
>>> > > would prefer to skip being sick to start with. No vaccine is 100% and
>>> > > many are not effective forever. Flu vaccines are notoriously
>>> > > ineffective, but we still take them, and they prevent some infections.
>>> > Who is this "we"? Patients in the US are able to choose whether to get
>>> > a flu shot or not. They should be able to make a choice with respect to
>>> > covid as well. For healthy young people the covid vaccine is almost
>>> > certainly more dangerous, (albeit fairly safe), than infection with covid.
>>> Almost certainly? CDC says that vaccines are safer for young people
>>> than the disease, but maybe they are lying to us because they want
>>> to kill young people. Personally, I think we should be out to kill
>>> the old people to reduce the pressure on the SS/Medicare trusts.
>>
>> I read Radey's comments too and wondered. I've seen lots of stories
>> about kids catching Covid and some of them dying. Especially in
>> Mississippi and other anti vaccine Republican states that outlaw
>> masks. But I guess they are only kids so what, who cares. They can't
>> vote and give me money so...
>
>If you have any numbers on kids, say below 18, dying *of* covid, that
>might be informative. Stories, in this day and age, are increasingly
>just that.

https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CID/DCDC/Pages/COVID-19/COVID-19-Cases-by-Age-Group.aspx
Cases and Deaths Associated with COVID-19 by Age Group in California

Canada only but perhaps it is indicative.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 07 Oct 2021 15:35:06 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 06 Oct 2021 14:28:38 -0400, Radey Shouman
><shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>"russellseaton1@yahoo.com" <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 4:39:57 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 1:27:18 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>> > jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> writes:
>>>> >
>>>> > > On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 8:44:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> > >> On 10/5/2021 10:15 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>> > >> > "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> > >> >
>>>> > >> >> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 9:28:05 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
>>>> > >> >>>
>>>> > >> >>> Now that companies are firing employees that refuse to get
>>>> > >> >>> vaccinated,
>>>> > >> >>> and universities are expelling students that refuse to get
>>>> > >> >>> vaccinated
>>>> > >> >>> (other than those that have a valid medical reason for
>>>> > >> >>> refusing), the
>>>> > >> >>> percentages will start to rise in the U.S..
>>>> > >> >>
>>>> > >> >> Maybe, possibly, if we are really lucky. BUT, even if the vaccination
>>>> > >> >> rises due to the threats, it will be a miniscule minimal amount. 0.1%
>>>> > >> >> each month or so. As you state we are at 56.3% fully vaccinated now.
>>>> > >> >> If my 0.1% is accurate, it will take 15 years 7 months to reach that
>>>> > >> >> mythical herd immunity percentage of 75%. 1 million, 2 million, 3
>>>> > >> >> million more dead people? From a disease that is easily prevented
>>>> > >> >> with an available vaccine. Is that winning?
>>>> > >> >
>>>> > >> > Except it's not prevented by the available vaccine. CDC agrees that
>>>> > >> > vaccinated people can and do become infected and do spread
>>>> > >> > the disease.
>>>> > >> > The "mythical" herd immunity vaccination threshold is indeed mythical,
>>>> > >> > there is no reason to think that covid would vanish even at 100%
>>>> > >> > vaccination.
>>>> > >> >
>>>> > >> > Successful human vaccines, such as smallpox, polio, measles, mumps,
>>>> > >> > pertussis, &c produce "sterilizing immunity". The vaccinated do not
>>>> > >> > become infected. The available covid vaccines do not work this way and
>>>> > >> > hence are not comparable. Leaky vaccines like those for covid
>>>> > >> > allow the
>>>> > >> > virus to continue to evolve among the vaccinated, which has given rise
>>>> > >> > to at least one remarkably lethal viral disease in chickens. Do a
>>>> > >> > search for "Marek's disease".
>>>> > >> >
>>>> > >> +1
>>>> > >> Which is why I have avoided calling the Pfizer/Moderna mRNA
>>>> > >> products 'vaccine'. J&J is an actual vaccine of attenuated
>>>> > >> virus.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> The mRNA jab promotes production of a blood-borne antibody.
>>>> > >> An antibody, one of the body's defenses, but only one.
>>>> > >> This is an important aspect of human immune response and is
>>>> > >> effective for the (sometimes fatal)
>>>> > >> vascular/cardiac/respiratory damage caused by a combination
>>>> > >> of the virus and cysteine response. It does not promote
>>>> > >> production of respiratory/mucosa antibodies (found in
>>>> > >> 'natural' immunity) so you are exactly right. The mRNA shot
>>>> > >> will likely keep you from dying but will not stop you from
>>>> > >> contracting or spreading the CCP Wuhan product.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > "Natural immunity" isn't faring that well.
>>>> > > https://news.yale.edu/2021/10/01/unvaccinated-reinfection-sars-cov-2-likely-study-finds
>>>> > > Natural immunity and a vaccine appear to be the ticket, although one
>>>> > > would prefer to skip being sick to start with. No vaccine is 100% and
>>>> > > many are not effective forever. Flu vaccines are notoriously
>>>> > > ineffective, but we still take them, and they prevent some infections.
>>>> > Who is this "we"? Patients in the US are able to choose whether to get
>>>> > a flu shot or not. They should be able to make a choice with respect to
>>>> > covid as well. For healthy young people the covid vaccine is almost
>>>> > certainly more dangerous, (albeit fairly safe), than infection with covid.
>>>> Almost certainly? CDC says that vaccines are safer for young people
>>>> than the disease, but maybe they are lying to us because they want
>>>> to kill young people. Personally, I think we should be out to kill
>>>> the old people to reduce the pressure on the SS/Medicare trusts.
>>>
>>> I read Radey's comments too and wondered. I've seen lots of stories
>>> about kids catching Covid and some of them dying. Especially in
>>> Mississippi and other anti vaccine Republican states that outlaw
>>> masks. But I guess they are only kids so what, who cares. They can't
>>> vote and give me money so...
>>
>>If you have any numbers on kids, say below 18, dying *of* covid, that
>>might be informative. Stories, in this day and age, are increasingly
>>just that.
>
>https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CID/DCDC/Pages/COVID-19/COVID-19-Cases-by-Age-Group.aspx
>Cases and Deaths Associated with COVID-19 by Age Group in California
>
>Canada only but perhaps it is indicative.

Well, this is a different computer and I guess there must be something
wrong with the keyboard as the "Canada", above, was intended to be
California" (:-(

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, October 6, 2021 at 4:46:32 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 10/6/2021 5:34 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> > Frank Krygowski writes:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> So instead, the strategy should have been... what? We've heard here
> >> that it certainly shouldn't include masks or any restrictions
> >> affecting any business.
> >>
> >> Perhaps vitamin D?
> >
> > Here we go again: We must do something, this is something, therefore we
> > must do this.
> >
> > Maybe some rational cost/benefit analysis?
> I very frequently think in terms of cost/benefit analysis (or benefits
> vs. detriments). But it's a very difficult thing to analyze when faced
> with something as new as COVID, especially in the very beginning. That's
> when the very craziest ideas were being pushed by amateurs. And they
> certainly weren't doing that analysis.
> > I still think Sweden had the right idea, and they have a lower age
> > adjusted excess mortality rate to show it -- lower than anywhere in
> > southern Europe and most of northern Europe, way lower than the US.
> Of course, there's serious disagreement on Sweden's approach. See
> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1113834/cumulative-coronavirus-deaths-in-the-nordics/
> and their per capita data doesn't look any better.
> https://www.businessinsider.com/sweden-covid-no-lockdown-strategy-failed-higher-death-rate-2021-8
> > Back here, Vermont has the highest vaccinated rate of any state, and
> > they're not looking good for the winter. Cases, hospitalization, and
> > deaths are climbing. I can't wait to see the news stories when Texas
> > and Florida hit their winter covid low and the northeast takes over the
> > spotlight.
> We'll see. The delta surge seems to be past it's peak, and the reasons
> are poorly understood. Again, this thing is new.
> > Covid is bad, and it has killed a lot of people, but it's not plague
> > bad, or smallpox bad, or Spanish flu bad.
> I'd say the major difference is not the infectious agent; it's the
> modern response using knowledge and science. If COVID had hit hundreds
> of years earlier, it may well have been as bad as those diseases. Also,
> I'm not particularly swayed by arguments on many topics that go "Other
> things are worse, so quit fussing." By that logic, only the world's #1
> most pressing problem gets any attention.
> > Maybe it's not worth
> > handing over every right we have in the vain hope that government can
> > make it go away.
> That's hyperbole. Nobody has given away every right. You're asked to
> wear a mask sometimes, and to either get a shot or get tested. You're
> not being tortured or marched into battle.

Frank, the only time you think is when it will cost you period.