On 9/22/2021 11:47 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 18:38:27 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
>>
>> Increases in productivity - especially modern ones - have led to huge
>> compensation increases and bonuses for top executives, but wages of
>> ordinary workers have not risen in parallel. In fact, when productivity
>> rises ordinary workers may suffer layoffs.
>
> Lee Iacocca basically kept Chrysler from going bankrupt saving the
> jobs of, probably, 15,000, or maybe more people. Doesn't he deserve a
> big raise?

John, I think the general run of things has been like this:

"CEO Jack made some executive decisions that probably prevented stock
prices dropping 10%. He deserves a million dollar bonus for doing his job!"

versus

"Maintenance supervisor Joe noticed a stamping press bearing nearing
failure and got it speedily repaired. That prevented the entire
production line shutting down, which would probably have dropped stock
prices 10%. But he was just doing his job."

Top executives' salaries have skyrocketed in recent decades, to obscene
levels. Ordinary workers' salaries have stagnated, if indeed their jobs
haven't been shipped offshore.

I think it's time to hire cheap CEOs (and university presidents) from
India. Why can't those jobs be done remotely?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 9/23/2021 10:52 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/22/2021 10:47 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 18:38:27 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/22/2021 5:16 PM, William Crowell wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 1:39:51 PM UTC-7, Frank
>>>> Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 9/22/2021 4:23 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/22/2021 2:36 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 9/22/2021 3:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 9/22/2021 1:26 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 2:14:40 PM UTC-4,
>>>>>>>>> William Crowell wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I have seen quite a few studies that say the primary
>>>>>>>>>> factor in workplace safety is employer concern and
>>>>>>>>>> attention to the issue. For example, it has been shown
>>>>>>>>>> that employers that knock off work 15 minutes early for
>>>>>>>>>> lunch every Friday in order to have a brief safety
>>>>>>>>>> meeting have far fewer industrial accidents than
>>>>>>>>>> employers who don't. The causation seems to be that the
>>>>>>>>>> employees realize that their employer really is
>>>>>>>>>> concerned about their safety, so they have a greater
>>>>>>>>>> self-regard, place a higher importance on safety and
>>>>>>>>>> therefore work more safely.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'll concede there are instances where an employer shows
>>>>>>>>> genuine empathy and concern for the well-being of the
>>>>>>>>> employees, but I'd be willing to bet that the majority of
>>>>>>>>> the companies that have such programs are driven more by
>>>>>>>>> insurance benefits. Having a safety program like you
>>>>>>>>> describe is required by some insurance policies, and
>>>>>>>>> other companies may give a discount if such a program is
>>>>>>>>> implemented and followed. The company I'm with now is the
>>>>>>>>> latter.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All well and good but the employer's experience rate is a
>>>>>>>> valuable and treasured thing. You don't need Mother
>>>>>>>> Theresa on the board of directors to embrace safety
>>>>>>>> measures & policies; they pay off in many was, insurance
>>>>>>>> expense high among them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I believe the prevailing attitudes were far different in the
>>>>>>> pre-union days. Getting product shipped was the primary
>>>>>>> concern, and if workers didn't like being exposed to risk,
>>>>>>> their only option was to quit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm sure there was no plant safety committee with union
>>>>>>> representation in the factory where my grandfather was
>>>>>>> killed. But there was such a committee in the plant where I
>>>>>>> worked as a plant engineer. Yes, it was sometimes an
>>>>>>> annoyance, but I think those sorts of things have made labor
>>>>>>> jobs much safer. In many cases, I bet they even paid off
>>>>>>> financially.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A lot has changed; clean tap water, radio, divided highways, I
>>>>>> could go
>>>>>> on. If workplaces had not changed along with every other part of our
>>>>>> culture _that_ would be news.
>>>>> But it's completely implausible that unions, when they peaked at over
>>>>> 1/3 of the labor force, produced no significant benefits for those
>>>>> workers.
>>>>>
>>>>> And provided benefits to even non-union workers. I always enjoyed my
>>>>> weekends, as well as other benefits that unions provided.
>>>>
>>>> As Thomas Sowell points out, unions increase the wages of their
>>>> members, at the expense of non-union employees, essentially by
>>>> restricting the labor supply.  The labor movement used to claim that
>>>> union labor would benefit non-union labor because "a rising tide
>>>> lifts all boats".  However, not even the AFL-CIO any longer makes
>>>> this claim because it's been proven beyond dispute that the rising
>>>> wages of union labor cause inflation because the wage increases are
>>>> not related to increases in productivity.  Therefore non-union labor
>>>> suffers because their wages do not increase, yet they have to pay
>>>> the inflated prices.
>>>
>>> Increases in productivity - especially modern ones - have led to huge
>>> compensation increases and bonuses for top executives, but wages of
>>> ordinary workers have not risen in parallel. In fact, when productivity
>>> rises ordinary workers may suffer layoffs.
>>
>> Lee Iacocca basically kept Chrysler from going bankrupt saving the
>> jobs of, probably, 15,000, or maybe more people. Doesn't he deserve a
>> big raise?
>>
>> Or, in my case, I negotiated a contract with the Indonesian National
>> Oil company, and then managed the construction of a project that gave
>> the company an additional $1,000,000 income the first full year of
>> operation. Don't I deserve a bit, may even more, than a guy twisting
>> valves on the production site?
>>
>
> Like so many tropes, it simplifies a complex area.
>
> IMHO Jack Welch was worth every penny of his huge salary, As was Sergio
> Marchionne, a genius and visionary combined with a superhuman work
> ethic; his huge salary was cheap for what he brought to the companies. I
> dislike a lot of things about Jeff Bezos but he's brought success and
> profit to the firm in excess of his excessive pay; he does that job
> better than anyone else. Elon Musk is more likeable and no less
> worthwhile, again highly paid but a steal at the price (and a walking
> talking advertisement for gifted immigrants- the more the better).
>
> Assume you were on Apple's board salary committee reviewing Steve Jobs,
> pre-cancer. That's a huge salary but who else is qualified? Apple could
> have easily become Motorola.

OK, regarding Jobs: If the board salary committee had said "Let's say
he's just been doing his job, no raise, no bonus," what would Jobs have
done? Maybe quit to found NeXT? How would that work out? Would Tim Cook
have had to take over Apple? Would that really be a disaster?

I don't believe in deifying those guys, even though they are certainly
brilliant. And I maintain that a huge number of top executives operate
at a "doing the job" level, but are paid like gods.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 9/23/2021 10:30 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/22/2021 11:47 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 18:38:27 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Increases in productivity - especially modern ones - have
>>> led to huge
>>> compensation increases and bonuses for top executives,
>>> but wages of
>>> ordinary workers have not risen in parallel. In fact,
>>> when productivity
>>> rises ordinary workers may suffer layoffs.
>>
>> Lee Iacocca basically kept Chrysler from going bankrupt
>> saving the
>> jobs of, probably, 15,000, or maybe more people. Doesn't
>> he deserve a
>> big raise?
>
> John, I think the general run of things has been like this:
>
> "CEO Jack made some executive decisions that probably
> prevented stock prices dropping 10%. He deserves a million
> dollar bonus for doing his job!"
>
> versus
>
> "Maintenance supervisor Joe noticed a stamping press bearing
> nearing failure and got it speedily repaired. That prevented
> the entire production line shutting down, which would
> probably have dropped stock prices 10%. But he was just
> doing his job."
>
> Top executives' salaries have skyrocketed in recent decades,
> to obscene levels. Ordinary workers' salaries have
> stagnated, if indeed their jobs haven't been shipped offshore.
>
> I think it's time to hire cheap CEOs (and university
> presidents) from India. Why can't those jobs be done remotely?
>
>

Continue that line of thought and Universities replace
engineering professors with Khan Academy (who do a great
job, not yet in your field).

Also, employees such as your putative maintenance supervisor
are routinely rewarded for 'savings' as you posit, and also
incremental process improvements.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 9/23/2021 9:55 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> Trump was entirely self financed. That is why he spent so much less than Hillary.

Such bullshit!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 9/23/2021 10:08 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 6:03:30 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/22/2021 7:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>>> You get the sort of world you want and deserve. So don't be surprised when you can't afford to buy a gallon of gas.
>>
>> Tom, you've been posting similar dire warnings and threats for years.
>> And yet, here I am, still prosperous, no economic problems at all.
>>
>> How's your neighborhood doing these days?
>
> Dire warnings when gas here is at $5/gal? Yesterday I went to pick up a set of superlight wheels from a man in Alamo, CA. The houses there had to be seen to be believed. I don't think I saw a house under 3,000 sq ft and most probably at least 5,000. Google maps literally ran me around in circles since every road was being resurfaced. But a block away from me the road surface is practically gravel. Literally.

You need to move out of that hellhole.

And it's terminally weird that you complain SO MUCH about how terrible
things are where you live. Yet there you stay!

> Again - this is the world you wish for this country and it is going to explode in your face.

I wish for pretty much the world I live in. (Well, maybe less traffic on
the main roads. Not that it's a big problem.)

> Didn't you just post that people without a degree couldn't be hired?

No, and there's your "memory" problem again!

> Well, 5 major companies have contacted me to work for them now that they've chased the degreed people out of this state. Tesla who hung up on me because I predicted their very problems now want me to work for them.

Sure, Tommy. We've heard such claims for years, along with "Groceries
are SO EXPENSIVE!!" Despite your statements, you remain unhappy and
unemployed.

Let us know when you actually get a job. And please, show proof.

> Why should I work at all?

So you can move out of that hellhole.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 8:56:15 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/23/2021 10:08 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 6:03:30 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 9/22/2021 7:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>
> >>> You get the sort of world you want and deserve. So don't be surprised when you can't afford to buy a gallon of gas.
> >>
> >> Tom, you've been posting similar dire warnings and threats for years.
> >> And yet, here I am, still prosperous, no economic problems at all.
> >>
> >> How's your neighborhood doing these days?
> >
> > Dire warnings when gas here is at $5/gal? Yesterday I went to pick up a set of superlight wheels from a man in Alamo, CA. The houses there had to be seen to be believed. I don't think I saw a house under 3,000 sq ft and most probably at least 5,000. Google maps literally ran me around in circles since every road was being resurfaced. But a block away from me the road surface is practically gravel. Literally.
> You need to move out of that hellhole.
>
> And it's terminally weird that you complain SO MUCH about how terrible
> things are where you live. Yet there you stay!
> > Again - this is the world you wish for this country and it is going to explode in your face.
> I wish for pretty much the world I live in. (Well, maybe less traffic on
> the main roads. Not that it's a big problem.)
> > Didn't you just post that people without a degree couldn't be hired?
> No, and there's your "memory" problem again!
> > Well, 5 major companies have contacted me to work for them now that they've chased the degreed people out of this state. Tesla who hung up on me because I predicted their very problems now want me to work for them.
> Sure, Tommy. We've heard such claims for years, along with "Groceries
> are SO EXPENSIVE!!" Despite your statements, you remain unhappy and
> unemployed.
>
> Let us know when you actually get a job. And please, show proof.
> > Why should I work at all?
> So you can move out of that hellhole.

Save your breath. I figure the Haldol will kick-in maybe three hours after PO administration, so look for a fleeting moment of sanity around 11:30 or Noon PST. Maybe during a lucid interval, Tom will solve the ancient riddle of whether wheels hang or stand on their spokes and whether crank tapers should or should not be greased. If he misses the window, he'll be back to zero COVID deaths and the market falling during the Obama administration, job offers directly from Elon Musk, etc., etc. No amount of fact checking or correction will ever matter. You just have to roll him into a nice sunny spot near the window and the potted philodendron and leave him alone. "Bye-bye Uncle Tom, I have to go to work now. I'll see you tomorrow." [Tom] "F**** you! Communists are in my underwear! There is no COVID . . . .. I won the Nobel Prize. What did you do!" [grabbing wheels on wheelchair, neck veins popping, looking out the window]. "I'll kick your ass!" [Other patients look over, confused].

-- Jay Beattie.

On 9/23/2021 10:46 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/23/2021 10:52 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 9/22/2021 10:47 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 18:38:27 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 9/22/2021 5:16 PM, William Crowell wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 1:39:51 PM UTC-7,
>>>>> Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/22/2021 4:23 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 9/22/2021 2:36 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 9/22/2021 3:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 9/22/2021 1:26 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 2:14:40 PM UTC-4,
>>>>>>>>>> William Crowell wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I have seen quite a few studies that say the primary
>>>>>>>>>>> factor in workplace safety is employer concern and
>>>>>>>>>>> attention to the issue. For example, it has been
>>>>>>>>>>> shown
>>>>>>>>>>> that employers that knock off work 15 minutes
>>>>>>>>>>> early for
>>>>>>>>>>> lunch every Friday in order to have a brief safety
>>>>>>>>>>> meeting have far fewer industrial accidents than
>>>>>>>>>>> employers who don't. The causation seems to be
>>>>>>>>>>> that the
>>>>>>>>>>> employees realize that their employer really is
>>>>>>>>>>> concerned about their safety, so they have a greater
>>>>>>>>>>> self-regard, place a higher importance on safety and
>>>>>>>>>>> therefore work more safely.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'll concede there are instances where an employer
>>>>>>>>>> shows
>>>>>>>>>> genuine empathy and concern for the well-being of the
>>>>>>>>>> employees, but I'd be willing to bet that the
>>>>>>>>>> majority of
>>>>>>>>>> the companies that have such programs are driven
>>>>>>>>>> more by
>>>>>>>>>> insurance benefits. Having a safety program like you
>>>>>>>>>> describe is required by some insurance policies, and
>>>>>>>>>> other companies may give a discount if such a
>>>>>>>>>> program is
>>>>>>>>>> implemented and followed. The company I'm with now
>>>>>>>>>> is the
>>>>>>>>>> latter.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> All well and good but the employer's experience
>>>>>>>>> rate is a
>>>>>>>>> valuable and treasured thing. You don't need Mother
>>>>>>>>> Theresa on the board of directors to embrace safety
>>>>>>>>> measures & policies; they pay off in many was,
>>>>>>>>> insurance
>>>>>>>>> expense high among them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I believe the prevailing attitudes were far
>>>>>>>> different in the
>>>>>>>> pre-union days. Getting product shipped was the primary
>>>>>>>> concern, and if workers didn't like being exposed to
>>>>>>>> risk,
>>>>>>>> their only option was to quit.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm sure there was no plant safety committee with union
>>>>>>>> representation in the factory where my grandfather was
>>>>>>>> killed. But there was such a committee in the plant
>>>>>>>> where I
>>>>>>>> worked as a plant engineer. Yes, it was sometimes an
>>>>>>>> annoyance, but I think those sorts of things have
>>>>>>>> made labor
>>>>>>>> jobs much safer. In many cases, I bet they even paid
>>>>>>>> off
>>>>>>>> financially.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A lot has changed; clean tap water, radio, divided
>>>>>>> highways, I could go
>>>>>>> on. If workplaces had not changed along with every
>>>>>>> other part of our
>>>>>>> culture _that_ would be news.
>>>>>> But it's completely implausible that unions, when they
>>>>>> peaked at over
>>>>>> 1/3 of the labor force, produced no significant
>>>>>> benefits for those
>>>>>> workers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And provided benefits to even non-union workers. I
>>>>>> always enjoyed my
>>>>>> weekends, as well as other benefits that unions provided.
>>>>>
>>>>> As Thomas Sowell points out, unions increase the wages
>>>>> of their members, at the expense of non-union
>>>>> employees, essentially by restricting the labor
>>>>> supply. The labor movement used to claim that union
>>>>> labor would benefit non-union labor because "a rising
>>>>> tide lifts all boats". However, not even the AFL-CIO
>>>>> any longer makes this claim because it's been proven
>>>>> beyond dispute that the rising wages of union labor
>>>>> cause inflation because the wage increases are not
>>>>> related to increases in productivity. Therefore
>>>>> non-union labor suffers because their wages do not
>>>>> increase, yet they have to pay the inflated prices.
>>>>
>>>> Increases in productivity - especially modern ones -
>>>> have led to huge
>>>> compensation increases and bonuses for top executives,
>>>> but wages of
>>>> ordinary workers have not risen in parallel. In fact,
>>>> when productivity
>>>> rises ordinary workers may suffer layoffs.
>>>
>>> Lee Iacocca basically kept Chrysler from going bankrupt
>>> saving the
>>> jobs of, probably, 15,000, or maybe more people. Doesn't
>>> he deserve a
>>> big raise?
>>>
>>> Or, in my case, I negotiated a contract with the
>>> Indonesian National
>>> Oil company, and then managed the construction of a
>>> project that gave
>>> the company an additional $1,000,000 income the first
>>> full year of
>>> operation. Don't I deserve a bit, may even more, than a
>>> guy twisting
>>> valves on the production site?
>>>
>>
>> Like so many tropes, it simplifies a complex area.
>>
>> IMHO Jack Welch was worth every penny of his huge salary,
>> As was Sergio Marchionne, a genius and visionary combined
>> with a superhuman work ethic; his huge salary was cheap
>> for what he brought to the companies. I dislike a lot of
>> things about Jeff Bezos but he's brought success and
>> profit to the firm in excess of his excessive pay; he does
>> that job better than anyone else. Elon Musk is more
>> likeable and no less worthwhile, again highly paid but a
>> steal at the price (and a walking talking advertisement
>> for gifted immigrants- the more the better).
>>
>> Assume you were on Apple's board salary committee
>> reviewing Steve Jobs, pre-cancer. That's a huge salary but
>> who else is qualified? Apple could have easily become
>> Motorola.
>
> OK, regarding Jobs: If the board salary committee had said
> "Let's say he's just been doing his job, no raise, no
> bonus," what would Jobs have done? Maybe quit to found NeXT?
> How would that work out? Would Tim Cook have had to take
> over Apple? Would that really be a disaster?
>
> I don't believe in deifying those guys, even though they are
> certainly brilliant. And I maintain that a huge number of
> top executives operate at a "doing the job" level, but are
> paid like gods.
>

On 9/23/2021 12:39 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 8:56:15 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/23/2021 10:08 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 6:03:30 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 9/22/2021 7:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> You get the sort of world you want and deserve. So don't be surprised when you can't afford to buy a gallon of gas.
>>>>
>>>> Tom, you've been posting similar dire warnings and threats for years.
>>>> And yet, here I am, still prosperous, no economic problems at all.
>>>>
>>>> How's your neighborhood doing these days?
>>>
>>> Dire warnings when gas here is at $5/gal? Yesterday I went to pick up a set of superlight wheels from a man in Alamo, CA. The houses there had to be seen to be believed. I don't think I saw a house under 3,000 sq ft and most probably at least 5,000. Google maps literally ran me around in circles since every road was being resurfaced. But a block away from me the road surface is practically gravel. Literally.
>> You need to move out of that hellhole.
>>
>> And it's terminally weird that you complain SO MUCH about how terrible
>> things are where you live. Yet there you stay!
>>> Again - this is the world you wish for this country and it is going to explode in your face.
>> I wish for pretty much the world I live in. (Well, maybe less traffic on
>> the main roads. Not that it's a big problem.)
>>> Didn't you just post that people without a degree couldn't be hired?
>> No, and there's your "memory" problem again!
>>> Well, 5 major companies have contacted me to work for them now that they've chased the degreed people out of this state. Tesla who hung up on me because I predicted their very problems now want me to work for them.
>> Sure, Tommy. We've heard such claims for years, along with "Groceries
>> are SO EXPENSIVE!!" Despite your statements, you remain unhappy and
>> unemployed.
>>
>> Let us know when you actually get a job. And please, show proof.
>>> Why should I work at all?
>> So you can move out of that hellhole.
>
> Save your breath. I figure the Haldol will kick-in maybe three hours after PO administration, so look for a fleeting moment of sanity around 11:30 or Noon PST. Maybe during a lucid interval, Tom will solve the ancient riddle of whether wheels hang or stand on their spokes and whether crank tapers should or should not be greased. If he misses the window, he'll be back to zero COVID deaths and the market falling during the Obama administration, job offers directly from Elon Musk, etc., etc. No amount of fact checking or correction will ever matter. You just have to roll him into a nice sunny spot near the window and the potted philodendron and leave him alone. "Bye-bye Uncle Tom, I have to go to work now. I'll see you tomorrow." [Tom] "F**** you! Communists are in my underwear! There is no COVID . . . . I won the Nobel Prize. What did you do!" [grabbing wheels on wheelchair, neck veins popping, looking out the window]. "I'll kick your ass!" [Other patients look over, confused].
In days of yore, uppercrust Londoners sometimes visited the Bedlam
asylum to gaze at the inmates for fun. I think they may have even paid
an admission fee.
Times are better now, because r.b.tech lets us watch Tom for free!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 9/23/2021 1:28 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/23/2021 10:46 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/23/2021 10:52 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 9/22/2021 10:47 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 18:38:27 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 9/22/2021 5:16 PM, William Crowell wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 1:39:51 PM UTC-7,
>>>>>> Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 9/22/2021 4:23 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 9/22/2021 2:36 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 9/22/2021 3:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 9/22/2021 1:26 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 2:14:40 PM UTC-4,
>>>>>>>>>>> William Crowell wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I have seen quite a few studies that say the primary
>>>>>>>>>>>> factor in workplace safety is employer concern and
>>>>>>>>>>>> attention to the issue. For example, it has been
>>>>>>>>>>>> shown
>>>>>>>>>>>> that employers that knock off work 15 minutes
>>>>>>>>>>>> early for
>>>>>>>>>>>> lunch every Friday in order to have a brief safety
>>>>>>>>>>>> meeting have far fewer industrial accidents than
>>>>>>>>>>>> employers who don't. The causation seems to be
>>>>>>>>>>>> that the
>>>>>>>>>>>> employees realize that their employer really is
>>>>>>>>>>>> concerned about their safety, so they have a greater
>>>>>>>>>>>> self-regard, place a higher importance on safety and
>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore work more safely.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'll concede there are instances where an employer
>>>>>>>>>>> shows
>>>>>>>>>>> genuine empathy and concern for the well-being of the
>>>>>>>>>>> employees, but I'd be willing to bet that the
>>>>>>>>>>> majority of
>>>>>>>>>>> the companies that have such programs are driven
>>>>>>>>>>> more by
>>>>>>>>>>> insurance benefits. Having a safety program like you
>>>>>>>>>>> describe is required by some insurance policies, and
>>>>>>>>>>> other companies may give a discount if such a
>>>>>>>>>>> program is
>>>>>>>>>>> implemented and followed. The company I'm with now
>>>>>>>>>>> is the
>>>>>>>>>>> latter.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> All well and good but the employer's experience
>>>>>>>>>> rate is a
>>>>>>>>>> valuable and treasured thing. You don't need Mother
>>>>>>>>>> Theresa on the board of directors to embrace safety
>>>>>>>>>> measures & policies; they pay off in many was,
>>>>>>>>>> insurance
>>>>>>>>>> expense high among them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I believe the prevailing attitudes were far
>>>>>>>>> different in the
>>>>>>>>> pre-union days. Getting product shipped was the primary
>>>>>>>>> concern, and if workers didn't like being exposed to
>>>>>>>>> risk,
>>>>>>>>> their only option was to quit.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm sure there was no plant safety committee with union
>>>>>>>>> representation in the factory where my grandfather was
>>>>>>>>> killed. But there was such a committee in the plant
>>>>>>>>> where I
>>>>>>>>> worked as a plant engineer. Yes, it was sometimes an
>>>>>>>>> annoyance, but I think those sorts of things have
>>>>>>>>> made labor
>>>>>>>>> jobs much safer. In many cases, I bet they even paid
>>>>>>>>> off
>>>>>>>>> financially.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A lot has changed; clean tap water, radio, divided
>>>>>>>> highways, I could go
>>>>>>>> on. If workplaces had not changed along with every
>>>>>>>> other part of our
>>>>>>>> culture _that_ would be news.
>>>>>>> But it's completely implausible that unions, when they
>>>>>>> peaked at over
>>>>>>> 1/3 of the labor force, produced no significant
>>>>>>> benefits for those
>>>>>>> workers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And provided benefits to even non-union workers. I
>>>>>>> always enjoyed my
>>>>>>> weekends, as well as other benefits that unions provided.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As Thomas Sowell points out, unions increase the wages
>>>>>> of their members, at the expense of non-union
>>>>>> employees, essentially by restricting the labor
>>>>>> supply.  The labor movement used to claim that union
>>>>>> labor would benefit non-union labor because "a rising
>>>>>> tide lifts all boats".  However, not even the AFL-CIO
>>>>>> any longer makes this claim because it's been proven
>>>>>> beyond dispute that the rising wages of union labor
>>>>>> cause inflation because the wage increases are not
>>>>>> related to increases in productivity.  Therefore
>>>>>> non-union labor suffers because their wages do not
>>>>>> increase, yet they have to pay the inflated prices.
>>>>>
>>>>> Increases in productivity - especially modern ones -
>>>>> have led to huge
>>>>> compensation increases and bonuses for top executives,
>>>>> but wages of
>>>>> ordinary workers have not risen in parallel. In fact,
>>>>> when productivity
>>>>> rises ordinary workers may suffer layoffs.
>>>>
>>>> Lee Iacocca basically kept Chrysler from going bankrupt
>>>> saving the
>>>> jobs of, probably, 15,000, or maybe more people. Doesn't
>>>> he deserve a
>>>> big raise?
>>>>
>>>> Or, in my case, I negotiated a contract with the
>>>> Indonesian National
>>>> Oil company, and then managed the construction of a
>>>> project that gave
>>>> the company an additional $1,000,000 income the first
>>>> full year of
>>>> operation. Don't I deserve a bit, may even more, than a
>>>> guy twisting
>>>> valves on the production site?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Like so many tropes, it simplifies a complex area.
>>>
>>> IMHO Jack Welch was worth every penny of his huge salary,
>>> As was Sergio Marchionne, a genius and visionary combined
>>> with a superhuman work ethic; his huge salary was cheap
>>> for what he brought to the companies. I dislike a lot of
>>> things about Jeff Bezos but he's brought success and
>>> profit to the firm in excess of his excessive pay; he does
>>> that job better than anyone else. Elon Musk is more
>>> likeable and no less worthwhile, again highly paid but a
>>> steal at the price (and a walking talking advertisement
>>> for gifted immigrants- the more the better).
>>>
>>> Assume you were on Apple's board salary committee
>>> reviewing Steve Jobs, pre-cancer. That's a huge salary but
>>> who else is qualified? Apple could have easily become
>>> Motorola.
>>
>> OK, regarding Jobs: If the board salary committee had said
>> "Let's say he's just been doing his job, no raise, no
>> bonus," what would Jobs have done? Maybe quit to found NeXT?
>> How would that work out? Would Tim Cook have had to take
>> over Apple? Would that really be a disaster?
>>
>> I don't believe in deifying those guys, even though they are
>> certainly brilliant. And I maintain that a huge number of
>> top executives operate at a "doing the job" level, but are
>> paid like gods.
>>
>
> Oh yes!
> I even mentioned egregious examples by name. And I'm sure some
> gazillionaire CEOs are yet underpaid based on their value to the
> shareholders.
>
> So may we agree that generalities about 'filthy rich lazy bastard
> corporate chieftans' is BS? Good examples and counterexamples are all
> over the place and highly publicized at that.

On 9/23/2021 12:47 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/23/2021 12:39 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>> On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 8:56:15 AM UTC-7, Frank
>> Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 9/23/2021 10:08 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 6:03:30 PM UTC-7,
>>>> Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 9/22/2021 7:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You get the sort of world you want and deserve. So
>>>>>> don't be surprised when you can't afford to buy a
>>>>>> gallon of gas.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom, you've been posting similar dire warnings and
>>>>> threats for years.
>>>>> And yet, here I am, still prosperous, no economic
>>>>> problems at all.
>>>>>
>>>>> How's your neighborhood doing these days?
>>>>
>>>> Dire warnings when gas here is at $5/gal? Yesterday I
>>>> went to pick up a set of superlight wheels from a man in
>>>> Alamo, CA. The houses there had to be seen to be
>>>> believed. I don't think I saw a house under 3,000 sq ft
>>>> and most probably at least 5,000. Google maps literally
>>>> ran me around in circles since every road was being
>>>> resurfaced. But a block away from me the road surface is
>>>> practically gravel. Literally.
>>> You need to move out of that hellhole.
>>>
>>> And it's terminally weird that you complain SO MUCH about
>>> how terrible
>>> things are where you live. Yet there you stay!
>>>> Again - this is the world you wish for this country and
>>>> it is going to explode in your face.
>>> I wish for pretty much the world I live in. (Well, maybe
>>> less traffic on
>>> the main roads. Not that it's a big problem.)
>>>> Didn't you just post that people without a degree
>>>> couldn't be hired?
>>> No, and there's your "memory" problem again!
>>>> Well, 5 major companies have contacted me to work for
>>>> them now that they've chased the degreed people out of
>>>> this state. Tesla who hung up on me because I predicted
>>>> their very problems now want me to work for them.
>>> Sure, Tommy. We've heard such claims for years, along
>>> with "Groceries
>>> are SO EXPENSIVE!!" Despite your statements, you remain
>>> unhappy and
>>> unemployed.
>>>
>>> Let us know when you actually get a job. And please, show
>>> proof.
>>>> Why should I work at all?
>>> So you can move out of that hellhole.
>>
>> Save your breath. I figure the Haldol will kick-in maybe
>> three hours after PO administration, so look for a
>> fleeting moment of sanity around 11:30 or Noon PST.
>> Maybe during a lucid interval, Tom will solve the ancient
>> riddle of whether wheels hang or stand on their spokes and
>> whether crank tapers should or should not be greased. If
>> he misses the window, he'll be back to zero COVID deaths
>> and the market falling during the Obama administration,
>> job offers directly from Elon Musk, etc., etc. No amount
>> of fact checking or correction will ever matter. You just
>> have to roll him into a nice sunny spot near the window
>> and the potted philodendron and leave him alone. "Bye-bye
>> Uncle Tom, I have to go to work now. I'll see you
>> tomorrow." [Tom] "F**** you! Communists are in my
>> underwear! There is no COVID . . . . I won the Nobel
>> Prize. What did you do!" [grabbing wheels on wheelchair,
>> neck veins popping, looking out the window]. "I'll kick
>> your ass!" [Other patients look over, confused].
>
> In days of yore, uppercrust Londoners sometimes visited the
> Bedlam asylum to gaze at the inmates for fun. I think they
> may have even paid an admission fee.
>
> Times are better now, because r.b.tech lets us watch Tom for
> free!
>
>

Either they're returning value to the shareholders OR if
not, the Directors and their salary committees are chumps
who, on average (bell curve) and in great numbers, are
easily duped by hucksters posing as business leaders. And
the Directors act with negligence despite liability.

Hmmm.
I wonder which scenario is more plausible?

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 9/23/2021 4:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/23/2021 12:47 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/23/2021 12:39 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>> On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 8:56:15 AM UTC-7, Frank
>>> Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 9/23/2021 10:08 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 6:03:30 PM UTC-7,
>>>>> Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/22/2021 7:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You get the sort of world you want and deserve. So
>>>>>>> don't be surprised when you can't afford to buy a
>>>>>>> gallon of gas.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom, you've been posting similar dire warnings and
>>>>>> threats for years.
>>>>>> And yet, here I am, still prosperous, no economic
>>>>>> problems at all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How's your neighborhood doing these days?
>>>>>
>>>>> Dire warnings when gas here is at $5/gal? Yesterday I
>>>>> went to pick up a set of superlight wheels from a man in
>>>>> Alamo, CA. The houses there had to be seen to be
>>>>> believed. I don't think I saw a house under 3,000 sq ft
>>>>> and most probably at least 5,000. Google maps literally
>>>>> ran me around in circles since every road was being
>>>>> resurfaced. But a block away from me the road surface is
>>>>> practically gravel. Literally.
>>>> You need to move out of that hellhole.
>>>>
>>>> And it's terminally weird that you complain SO MUCH about
>>>> how terrible
>>>> things are where you live. Yet there you stay!
>>>>> Again - this is the world you wish for this country and
>>>>> it is going to explode in your face.
>>>> I wish for pretty much the world I live in. (Well, maybe
>>>> less traffic on
>>>> the main roads. Not that it's a big problem.)
>>>>> Didn't you just post that people without a degree
>>>>> couldn't be hired?
>>>> No, and there's your "memory" problem again!
>>>>> Well, 5 major companies have contacted me to work for
>>>>> them now that they've chased the degreed people out of
>>>>> this state. Tesla who hung up on me because I predicted
>>>>> their very problems now want me to work for them.
>>>> Sure, Tommy. We've heard such claims for years, along
>>>> with "Groceries
>>>> are SO EXPENSIVE!!" Despite your statements, you remain
>>>> unhappy and
>>>> unemployed.
>>>>
>>>> Let us know when you actually get a job. And please, show
>>>> proof.
>>>>> Why should I work at all?
>>>> So you can move out of that hellhole.
>>>
>>> Save your breath.  I figure the Haldol will kick-in maybe
>>> three hours after PO administration, so look for a
>>> fleeting moment of sanity around 11:30 or Noon PST.
>>> Maybe during a lucid interval, Tom will solve the ancient
>>> riddle of whether wheels hang or stand on their spokes and
>>> whether crank tapers should or should not be greased.  If
>>> he misses the window, he'll be back to  zero COVID deaths
>>> and the market falling during the Obama administration,
>>> job offers directly from Elon Musk, etc., etc.  No amount
>>> of fact checking or correction will ever matter.  You just
>>> have to roll him into a nice sunny  spot near the window
>>> and the potted philodendron and leave him alone.  "Bye-bye
>>> Uncle Tom, I have to go to work now.  I'll see you
>>> tomorrow."  [Tom] "F**** you!  Communists are in my
>>> underwear!   There is no COVID . . . . I won the Nobel
>>> Prize.  What did you do!" [grabbing wheels on wheelchair,
>>> neck veins popping, looking out the window].  "I'll kick
>>> your ass!"  [Other patients look over, confused].
>>
>> In days of yore, uppercrust Londoners sometimes visited the
>> Bedlam asylum to gaze at the inmates for fun. I think they
>> may have even paid an admission fee.
>>
>> Times are better now, because r.b.tech lets us watch Tom for
>> free!
>>
>>
>
>
> Either they're returning value to the shareholders OR if not, the
> Directors and their salary committees are chumps who, on average (bell
> curve) and in great numbers, are easily duped by hucksters posing as
> business leaders.  And the Directors act with negligence despite liability.
>
> Hmmm.
> I wonder which scenario is more plausible?

A third and more likely possibility is they are in on the scam. Have you
never heard of an "old boys" network? Seriously? "You scratch my back
and I'll scratch yours"?

This stuff happens even in universities and small suburban villages.
You're such a naive idealist!

Do you never wonder why CEO pay is a much lower multiple of worker pay
in many other countries?

https://arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/GKNJDHT72MZX3CIMWWSFMSVNG4.png

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 8:48:54 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/23/2021 9:55 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > Trump was entirely self financed. That is why he spent so much less than Hillary.
> Such bullshit!

Frank, you get more hilarious every posting. You ignorance grows by the second. I suppose that like Biden you have serious dementia tearing your brains to pieces. How hard would it have been to look this up? You just can't wrap your mind around your own failures. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2016/feb/10/donald-trump/donald-trump-self-funding-his-campaign-sort/

On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 9:39:49 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
> On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 8:56:15 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 9/23/2021 10:08 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 6:03:30 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >> On 9/22/2021 7:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> You get the sort of world you want and deserve. So don't be surprised when you can't afford to buy a gallon of gas.
> > >>
> > >> Tom, you've been posting similar dire warnings and threats for years..
> > >> And yet, here I am, still prosperous, no economic problems at all.
> > >>
> > >> How's your neighborhood doing these days?
> > >
> > > Dire warnings when gas here is at $5/gal? Yesterday I went to pick up a set of superlight wheels from a man in Alamo, CA. The houses there had to be seen to be believed. I don't think I saw a house under 3,000 sq ft and most probably at least 5,000. Google maps literally ran me around in circles since every road was being resurfaced. But a block away from me the road surface is practically gravel. Literally.
> > You need to move out of that hellhole.
> >
> > And it's terminally weird that you complain SO MUCH about how terrible
> > things are where you live. Yet there you stay!
> > > Again - this is the world you wish for this country and it is going to explode in your face.
> > I wish for pretty much the world I live in. (Well, maybe less traffic on
> > the main roads. Not that it's a big problem.)
> > > Didn't you just post that people without a degree couldn't be hired?
> > No, and there's your "memory" problem again!
> > > Well, 5 major companies have contacted me to work for them now that they've chased the degreed people out of this state. Tesla who hung up on me because I predicted their very problems now want me to work for them.
> > Sure, Tommy. We've heard such claims for years, along with "Groceries
> > are SO EXPENSIVE!!" Despite your statements, you remain unhappy and
> > unemployed.
> >
> > Let us know when you actually get a job. And please, show proof.
> > > Why should I work at all?
> > So you can move out of that hellhole.
> Save your breath. I figure the Haldol will kick-in maybe three hours after PO administration, so look for a fleeting moment of sanity around 11:30 or Noon PST. Maybe during a lucid interval, Tom will solve the ancient riddle of whether wheels hang or stand on their spokes and whether crank tapers should or should not be greased. If he misses the window, he'll be back to zero COVID deaths and the market falling during the Obama administration, job offers directly from Elon Musk, etc., etc. No amount of fact checking or correction will ever matter. You just have to roll him into a nice sunny spot near the window and the potted philodendron and leave him alone. "Bye-bye Uncle Tom, I have to go to work now. I'll see you tomorrow." [Tom] "F**** you! Communists are in my underwear! There is no COVID . . . . I won the Nobel Prize. What did you do!" [grabbing wheels on wheelchair, neck veins popping, looking out the window]. "I'll kick your ass!" [Other patients look over, confused].

Jay, if you can't figure out the statistics from the CDC why don't you just say so? What is it, the Bayne's theorem? This says that the more information you have the more precise answer you can generate. The information we

On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 9:39:49 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
> On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 8:56:15 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 9/23/2021 10:08 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 6:03:30 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >> On 9/22/2021 7:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> You get the sort of world you want and deserve. So don't be surprised when you can't afford to buy a gallon of gas.
> > >>
> > >> Tom, you've been posting similar dire warnings and threats for years..
> > >> And yet, here I am, still prosperous, no economic problems at all.
> > >>
> > >> How's your neighborhood doing these days?
> > >
> > > Dire warnings when gas here is at $5/gal? Yesterday I went to pick up a set of superlight wheels from a man in Alamo, CA. The houses there had to be seen to be believed. I don't think I saw a house under 3,000 sq ft and most probably at least 5,000. Google maps literally ran me around in circles since every road was being resurfaced. But a block away from me the road surface is practically gravel. Literally.
> > You need to move out of that hellhole.
> >
> > And it's terminally weird that you complain SO MUCH about how terrible
> > things are where you live. Yet there you stay!
> > > Again - this is the world you wish for this country and it is going to explode in your face.
> > I wish for pretty much the world I live in. (Well, maybe less traffic on
> > the main roads. Not that it's a big problem.)
> > > Didn't you just post that people without a degree couldn't be hired?
> > No, and there's your "memory" problem again!
> > > Well, 5 major companies have contacted me to work for them now that they've chased the degreed people out of this state. Tesla who hung up on me because I predicted their very problems now want me to work for them.
> > Sure, Tommy. We've heard such claims for years, along with "Groceries
> > are SO EXPENSIVE!!" Despite your statements, you remain unhappy and
> > unemployed.
> >
> > Let us know when you actually get a job. And please, show proof.
> > > Why should I work at all?
> > So you can move out of that hellhole.
> Save your breath. I figure the Haldol will kick-in maybe three hours after PO administration, so look for a fleeting moment of sanity around 11:30 or Noon PST. Maybe during a lucid interval, Tom will solve the ancient riddle of whether wheels hang or stand on their spokes and whether crank tapers should or should not be greased. If he misses the window, he'll be back to zero COVID deaths and the market falling during the Obama administration, job offers directly from Elon Musk, etc., etc. No amount of fact checking or correction will ever matter. You just have to roll him into a nice sunny spot near the window and the potted philodendron and leave him alone. "Bye-bye Uncle Tom, I have to go to work now. I'll see you tomorrow." [Tom] "F**** you! Communists are in my underwear! There is no COVID . . . . I won the Nobel Prize. What did you do!" [grabbing wheels on wheelchair, neck veins popping, looking out the window]. "I'll kick your ass!" [Other patients look over, confused].
Jay, if you can't understand statistics from the CDC just say so. Don't pretend that you can understand it when you don't know shit. What is it, the Baynes Theorem? With the data we have the chances of my being wrong on what I've said is less that 1%. But continue making stupid statements like you're doing so that someone uses it in court to demonstrate your incompetence.

On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 2:18:15 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/23/2021 4:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 9/23/2021 12:47 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 9/23/2021 12:39 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 8:56:15 AM UTC-7, Frank
> >>> Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> On 9/23/2021 10:08 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 6:03:30 PM UTC-7,
> >>>>> Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>> On 9/22/2021 7:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> You get the sort of world you want and deserve. So
> >>>>>>> don't be surprised when you can't afford to buy a
> >>>>>>> gallon of gas.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Tom, you've been posting similar dire warnings and
> >>>>>> threats for years.
> >>>>>> And yet, here I am, still prosperous, no economic
> >>>>>> problems at all.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> How's your neighborhood doing these days?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Dire warnings when gas here is at $5/gal? Yesterday I
> >>>>> went to pick up a set of superlight wheels from a man in
> >>>>> Alamo, CA. The houses there had to be seen to be
> >>>>> believed. I don't think I saw a house under 3,000 sq ft
> >>>>> and most probably at least 5,000. Google maps literally
> >>>>> ran me around in circles since every road was being
> >>>>> resurfaced. But a block away from me the road surface is
> >>>>> practically gravel. Literally.
> >>>> You need to move out of that hellhole.
> >>>>
> >>>> And it's terminally weird that you complain SO MUCH about
> >>>> how terrible
> >>>> things are where you live. Yet there you stay!
> >>>>> Again - this is the world you wish for this country and
> >>>>> it is going to explode in your face.
> >>>> I wish for pretty much the world I live in. (Well, maybe
> >>>> less traffic on
> >>>> the main roads. Not that it's a big problem.)
> >>>>> Didn't you just post that people without a degree
> >>>>> couldn't be hired?
> >>>> No, and there's your "memory" problem again!
> >>>>> Well, 5 major companies have contacted me to work for
> >>>>> them now that they've chased the degreed people out of
> >>>>> this state. Tesla who hung up on me because I predicted
> >>>>> their very problems now want me to work for them.
> >>>> Sure, Tommy. We've heard such claims for years, along
> >>>> with "Groceries
> >>>> are SO EXPENSIVE!!" Despite your statements, you remain
> >>>> unhappy and
> >>>> unemployed.
> >>>>
> >>>> Let us know when you actually get a job. And please, show
> >>>> proof.
> >>>>> Why should I work at all?
> >>>> So you can move out of that hellhole.
> >>>
> >>> Save your breath. I figure the Haldol will kick-in maybe
> >>> three hours after PO administration, so look for a
> >>> fleeting moment of sanity around 11:30 or Noon PST.
> >>> Maybe during a lucid interval, Tom will solve the ancient
> >>> riddle of whether wheels hang or stand on their spokes and
> >>> whether crank tapers should or should not be greased. If
> >>> he misses the window, he'll be back to zero COVID deaths
> >>> and the market falling during the Obama administration,
> >>> job offers directly from Elon Musk, etc., etc. No amount
> >>> of fact checking or correction will ever matter. You just
> >>> have to roll him into a nice sunny spot near the window
> >>> and the potted philodendron and leave him alone. "Bye-bye
> >>> Uncle Tom, I have to go to work now. I'll see you
> >>> tomorrow." [Tom] "F**** you! Communists are in my
> >>> underwear! There is no COVID . . . . I won the Nobel
> >>> Prize. What did you do!" [grabbing wheels on wheelchair,
> >>> neck veins popping, looking out the window]. "I'll kick
> >>> your ass!" [Other patients look over, confused].
> >>
> >> In days of yore, uppercrust Londoners sometimes visited the
> >> Bedlam asylum to gaze at the inmates for fun. I think they
> >> may have even paid an admission fee.
> >>
> >> Times are better now, because r.b.tech lets us watch Tom for
> >> free!
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > Either they're returning value to the shareholders OR if not, the
> > Directors and their salary committees are chumps who, on average (bell
> > curve) and in great numbers, are easily duped by hucksters posing as
> > business leaders. And the Directors act with negligence despite liability.
> >
> > Hmmm.
> > I wonder which scenario is more plausible?
> A third and more likely possibility is they are in on the scam. Have you
> never heard of an "old boys" network? Seriously? "You scratch my back
> and I'll scratch yours"?
>
> This stuff happens even in universities and small suburban villages.
> You're such a naive idealist!
>
> Do you never wonder why CEO pay is a much lower multiple of worker pay
> in many other countries?
>
> https://arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/GKNJDHT72MZX3CIMWWSFMSVNG4.png

There's that dementia raising its ugly head yet again. Frank - you're losing it big time. The world seems entirely different from what it is. But you can't see this and are now contradicting reality.

On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 3:34:04 PM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 9:39:49 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 8:56:15 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On 9/23/2021 10:08 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 6:03:30 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > >> On 9/22/2021 7:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> You get the sort of world you want and deserve. So don't be surprised when you can't afford to buy a gallon of gas.
> > > >>
> > > >> Tom, you've been posting similar dire warnings and threats for years.
> > > >> And yet, here I am, still prosperous, no economic problems at all.
> > > >>
> > > >> How's your neighborhood doing these days?
> > > >
> > > > Dire warnings when gas here is at $5/gal? Yesterday I went to pick up a set of superlight wheels from a man in Alamo, CA. The houses there had to be seen to be believed. I don't think I saw a house under 3,000 sq ft and most probably at least 5,000. Google maps literally ran me around in circles since every road was being resurfaced. But a block away from me the road surface is practically gravel. Literally.
> > > You need to move out of that hellhole.
> > >
> > > And it's terminally weird that you complain SO MUCH about how terrible
> > > things are where you live. Yet there you stay!
> > > > Again - this is the world you wish for this country and it is going to explode in your face.
> > > I wish for pretty much the world I live in. (Well, maybe less traffic on
> > > the main roads. Not that it's a big problem.)
> > > > Didn't you just post that people without a degree couldn't be hired?
> > > No, and there's your "memory" problem again!
> > > > Well, 5 major companies have contacted me to work for them now that they've chased the degreed people out of this state. Tesla who hung up on me because I predicted their very problems now want me to work for them.
> > > Sure, Tommy. We've heard such claims for years, along with "Groceries
> > > are SO EXPENSIVE!!" Despite your statements, you remain unhappy and
> > > unemployed.
> > >
> > > Let us know when you actually get a job. And please, show proof.
> > > > Why should I work at all?
> > > So you can move out of that hellhole.
> > Save your breath. I figure the Haldol will kick-in maybe three hours after PO administration, so look for a fleeting moment of sanity around 11:30 or Noon PST. Maybe during a lucid interval, Tom will solve the ancient riddle of whether wheels hang or stand on their spokes and whether crank tapers should or should not be greased. If he misses the window, he'll be back to zero COVID deaths and the market falling during the Obama administration, job offers directly from Elon Musk, etc., etc. No amount of fact checking or correction will ever matter. You just have to roll him into a nice sunny spot near the window and the potted philodendron and leave him alone. "Bye-bye Uncle Tom, I have to go to work now. I'll see you tomorrow." [Tom] "F**** you! Communists are in my underwear! There is no COVID . . . . I won the Nobel Prize. What did you do!" [grabbing wheels on wheelchair, neck veins popping, looking out the window]. "I'll kick your ass!" [Other patients look over, confused].
> Jay, if you can't understand statistics from the CDC just say so. Don't pretend that you can understand it when you don't know shit. What is it, the Baynes Theorem? With the data we have the chances of my being wrong on what I've said is less that 1%. But continue making stupid statements like you're doing so that someone uses it in court to demonstrate your incompetence..

You flipped that -- you mean a 1% chance of being right. Based on my extensive knowledge of statistics and multiple trips down the rabbit hole to the Tom Kunich Mystery Spot, the predicted odds of you being wrong on any give issue -- from bicycles to diseases -- is about 99%. I would say 98% between 11:39 and noon PST, assuming no adverse medication interactions. Nobody died of COVID? Okey-dokey. What's next? Gravity is a hoax? Tell us the truth . . . we can handle it!

-- Jay Beattie.

On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 11:30:19 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 9/22/2021 11:47 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 18:38:27 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Increases in productivity - especially modern ones - have led to huge
>>> compensation increases and bonuses for top executives, but wages of
>>> ordinary workers have not risen in parallel. In fact, when productivity
>>> rises ordinary workers may suffer layoffs.
>>
>> Lee Iacocca basically kept Chrysler from going bankrupt saving the
>> jobs of, probably, 15,000, or maybe more people. Doesn't he deserve a
>> big raise?
>
>John, I think the general run of things has been like this:
>
>"CEO Jack made some executive decisions that probably prevented stock
>prices dropping 10%. He deserves a million dollar bonus for doing his job!"
>
>versus
>
>"Maintenance supervisor Joe noticed a stamping press bearing nearing
>failure and got it speedily repaired. That prevented the entire
>production line shutting down, which would probably have dropped stock
>prices 10%. But he was just doing his job."
>
>Top executives' salaries have skyrocketed in recent decades, to obscene
>levels. Ordinary workers' salaries have stagnated, if indeed their jobs
>haven't been shipped offshore.
>
>I think it's time to hire cheap CEOs (and university presidents) from
>India. Why can't those jobs be done remotely?

You over simplify things.

First case... Manager prevented stock prices from dropping 10%.
Doesn't sound like much, but what did this do to the corporation's
over all financial standing? Would banks be less inclined to finance
the company when shares prices dropped? Ask Andrew whether it is
easier for a company to borrow money when it is doing "very well,
thank you", or when "we are still keeping our head above water".

As for jobs migrating overseas? And I'm sure that corporate managers
are even getting raises for doing so. I read, for example, that
Amazon, in the U.S., pays $15/hour. Minimum salary in Thailand is 300
baht a day, about $1.14/hour at current exchange rates.

Amazon employs some 1 million people in the U.S. so average daily
wages is something like $120,000,000 in the U.S. A move to Thailand
would result in a decrease in daily wages to $9,120,000, a savings of
$110,880,000.

Tell me, wouldn't a reduction in corporate costs of $110,880,000 a day
be worth a very substantial bonus to management.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 10:46:59 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 9/23/2021 10:30 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/22/2021 11:47 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 18:38:27 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Increases in productivity - especially modern ones - have
>>>> led to huge
>>>> compensation increases and bonuses for top executives,
>>>> but wages of
>>>> ordinary workers have not risen in parallel. In fact,
>>>> when productivity
>>>> rises ordinary workers may suffer layoffs.
>>>
>>> Lee Iacocca basically kept Chrysler from going bankrupt
>>> saving the
>>> jobs of, probably, 15,000, or maybe more people. Doesn't
>>> he deserve a
>>> big raise?
>>
>> John, I think the general run of things has been like this:
>>
>> "CEO Jack made some executive decisions that probably
>> prevented stock prices dropping 10%. He deserves a million
>> dollar bonus for doing his job!"
>>
>> versus
>>
>> "Maintenance supervisor Joe noticed a stamping press bearing
>> nearing failure and got it speedily repaired. That prevented
>> the entire production line shutting down, which would
>> probably have dropped stock prices 10%. But he was just
>> doing his job."
>>
>> Top executives' salaries have skyrocketed in recent decades,
>> to obscene levels. Ordinary workers' salaries have
>> stagnated, if indeed their jobs haven't been shipped offshore.
>>
>> I think it's time to hire cheap CEOs (and university
>> presidents) from India. Why can't those jobs be done remotely?
>>
>>
>
>Continue that line of thought and Universities replace
>engineering professors with Khan Academy (who do a great
>job, not yet in your field).
>
>Also, employees such as your putative maintenance supervisor
>are routinely rewarded for 'savings' as you posit, and also
>incremental process improvements.

Along those lines wasn't it Ford who started a bonus payment system to
anyone that could suggest a method of reducing costs? Even the Air
Force had a system of similar payments. I remember a guy getting a
hundred dollars or so for suggesting turning a bolt around so you
could get a wrench on the nut (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:52:36 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 9/23/2021 1:28 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 9/23/2021 10:46 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 9/23/2021 10:52 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 9/22/2021 10:47 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 18:38:27 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 9/22/2021 5:16 PM, William Crowell wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 1:39:51 PM UTC-7,
>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 9/22/2021 4:23 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 9/22/2021 2:36 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 9/22/2021 3:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/22/2021 1:26 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 2:14:40 PM UTC-4,
>>>>>>>>>>>> William Crowell wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have seen quite a few studies that say the primary
>>>>>>>>>>>>> factor in workplace safety is employer concern and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> attention to the issue. For example, it has been
>>>>>>>>>>>>> shown
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that employers that knock off work 15 minutes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> early for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> lunch every Friday in order to have a brief safety
>>>>>>>>>>>>> meeting have far fewer industrial accidents than
>>>>>>>>>>>>> employers who don't. The causation seems to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> employees realize that their employer really is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> concerned about their safety, so they have a greater
>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-regard, place a higher importance on safety and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore work more safely.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll concede there are instances where an employer
>>>>>>>>>>>> shows
>>>>>>>>>>>> genuine empathy and concern for the well-being of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> employees, but I'd be willing to bet that the
>>>>>>>>>>>> majority of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the companies that have such programs are driven
>>>>>>>>>>>> more by
>>>>>>>>>>>> insurance benefits. Having a safety program like you
>>>>>>>>>>>> describe is required by some insurance policies, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> other companies may give a discount if such a
>>>>>>>>>>>> program is
>>>>>>>>>>>> implemented and followed. The company I'm with now
>>>>>>>>>>>> is the
>>>>>>>>>>>> latter.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> All well and good but the employer's experience
>>>>>>>>>>> rate is a
>>>>>>>>>>> valuable and treasured thing. You don't need Mother
>>>>>>>>>>> Theresa on the board of directors to embrace safety
>>>>>>>>>>> measures & policies; they pay off in many was,
>>>>>>>>>>> insurance
>>>>>>>>>>> expense high among them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I believe the prevailing attitudes were far
>>>>>>>>>> different in the
>>>>>>>>>> pre-union days. Getting product shipped was the primary
>>>>>>>>>> concern, and if workers didn't like being exposed to
>>>>>>>>>> risk,
>>>>>>>>>> their only option was to quit.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure there was no plant safety committee with union
>>>>>>>>>> representation in the factory where my grandfather was
>>>>>>>>>> killed. But there was such a committee in the plant
>>>>>>>>>> where I
>>>>>>>>>> worked as a plant engineer. Yes, it was sometimes an
>>>>>>>>>> annoyance, but I think those sorts of things have
>>>>>>>>>> made labor
>>>>>>>>>> jobs much safer. In many cases, I bet they even paid
>>>>>>>>>> off
>>>>>>>>>> financially.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A lot has changed; clean tap water, radio, divided
>>>>>>>>> highways, I could go
>>>>>>>>> on. If workplaces had not changed along with every
>>>>>>>>> other part of our
>>>>>>>>> culture _that_ would be news.
>>>>>>>> But it's completely implausible that unions, when they
>>>>>>>> peaked at over
>>>>>>>> 1/3 of the labor force, produced no significant
>>>>>>>> benefits for those
>>>>>>>> workers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And provided benefits to even non-union workers. I
>>>>>>>> always enjoyed my
>>>>>>>> weekends, as well as other benefits that unions provided.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As Thomas Sowell points out, unions increase the wages
>>>>>>> of their members, at the expense of non-union
>>>>>>> employees, essentially by restricting the labor
>>>>>>> supply.  The labor movement used to claim that union
>>>>>>> labor would benefit non-union labor because "a rising
>>>>>>> tide lifts all boats".  However, not even the AFL-CIO
>>>>>>> any longer makes this claim because it's been proven
>>>>>>> beyond dispute that the rising wages of union labor
>>>>>>> cause inflation because the wage increases are not
>>>>>>> related to increases in productivity.  Therefore
>>>>>>> non-union labor suffers because their wages do not
>>>>>>> increase, yet they have to pay the inflated prices.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Increases in productivity - especially modern ones -
>>>>>> have led to huge
>>>>>> compensation increases and bonuses for top executives,
>>>>>> but wages of
>>>>>> ordinary workers have not risen in parallel. In fact,
>>>>>> when productivity
>>>>>> rises ordinary workers may suffer layoffs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lee Iacocca basically kept Chrysler from going bankrupt
>>>>> saving the
>>>>> jobs of, probably, 15,000, or maybe more people. Doesn't
>>>>> he deserve a
>>>>> big raise?
>>>>>
>>>>> Or, in my case, I negotiated a contract with the
>>>>> Indonesian National
>>>>> Oil company, and then managed the construction of a
>>>>> project that gave
>>>>> the company an additional $1,000,000 income the first
>>>>> full year of
>>>>> operation. Don't I deserve a bit, may even more, than a
>>>>> guy twisting
>>>>> valves on the production site?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Like so many tropes, it simplifies a complex area.
>>>>
>>>> IMHO Jack Welch was worth every penny of his huge salary,
>>>> As was Sergio Marchionne, a genius and visionary combined
>>>> with a superhuman work ethic; his huge salary was cheap
>>>> for what he brought to the companies. I dislike a lot of
>>>> things about Jeff Bezos but he's brought success and
>>>> profit to the firm in excess of his excessive pay; he does
>>>> that job better than anyone else. Elon Musk is more
>>>> likeable and no less worthwhile, again highly paid but a
>>>> steal at the price (and a walking talking advertisement
>>>> for gifted immigrants- the more the better).
>>>>
>>>> Assume you were on Apple's board salary committee
>>>> reviewing Steve Jobs, pre-cancer. That's a huge salary but
>>>> who else is qualified? Apple could have easily become
>>>> Motorola.
>>>
>>> OK, regarding Jobs: If the board salary committee had said
>>> "Let's say he's just been doing his job, no raise, no
>>> bonus," what would Jobs have done? Maybe quit to found NeXT?
>>> How would that work out? Would Tim Cook have had to take
>>> over Apple? Would that really be a disaster?
>>>
>>> I don't believe in deifying those guys, even though they are
>>> certainly brilliant. And I maintain that a huge number of
>>> top executives operate at a "doing the job" level, but are
>>> paid like gods.
>>>
>>
>> Oh yes!
>> I even mentioned egregious examples by name. And I'm sure some
>> gazillionaire CEOs are yet underpaid based on their value to the
>> shareholders.
>>
>> So may we agree that generalities about 'filthy rich lazy bastard
>> corporate chieftans' is BS? Good examples and counterexamples are all
>> over the place and highly publicized at that.
>
>No, Andrew, I don't think that exceptions outlaw generalities.
>
>Again, think about normal curves. Each has two tails: the exceptions.
>That doesn't mean one can't make meaningful statements about the vast
>majority near the center of the curve.
>
>"The Economic Policy Institute (EPI) estimates that CEO compensation has
>grown 1,322% since 1978, while typical worker compensation has risen
>just 18%."
>https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/15/in-2020-top-ceos-earned-351-times-more-than-the-typical-worker.html
>
>
>Other sources have other estimates, but they are broadly similar. What
>is the typical, middle-of-the-curve CEO doing now that is over ten times
>as valuable as a CEO in the 1970s?

On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 3:17:51 PM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 8:48:54 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 9/23/2021 9:55 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > Trump was entirely self financed. That is why he spent so much less than Hillary.
> > Such bullshit!
> Frank, you get more hilarious every posting. You ignorance grows by the second. I suppose that like Biden you have serious dementia tearing your brains to pieces. How hard would it have been to look this up? You just can't wrap your mind around your own failures. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2016/feb/10/donald-trump/donald-trump-self-funding-his-campaign-sort/

That article says clearly that Trump's campaign was NOT "entirely self financed" as you claimed.
Tom, please find someone who can help you with reading comprehension.

- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 5:40:16 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:52:36 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> >"The Economic Policy Institute (EPI) estimates that CEO compensation has
> >grown 1,322% since 1978, while typical worker compensation has risen
> >just 18%."
> >https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/15/in-2020-top-ceos-earned-351-times-more-than-the-typical-worker.html
> >
> >
> >Other sources have other estimates, but they are broadly similar. What
> >is the typical, middle-of-the-curve CEO doing now that is over ten times
> >as valuable as a CEO in the 1970s?
> But Frank, an increase in costs are equally true in the field of
> education.
> https://educationdata.org/average-cost-of-college-by-year#1950
> "In 1950, the U-Penn charged undergraduates $625 for the academic
> year."
> "Undergraduates attending U-Penn in the 2021-22 academic year will pay
> $61,170"

I'm very well aware of that, John. I think it's scandalous. I worked to pay my way through college (well, with
the help of some scholarships or assistantships). I don't think that's nearly as possible now.

And in my view, most of the cost increase has nothing to do with better educational quality. I've observed
massive increases in campus size, building numbers and sizes, documentation requirements, etc. but most of
all an incredible increase in the size and cost of the administration.

Early in my career, the university had one Provost with one secretary working out of one small office. (A provost is
sort of a vice president in charge of academic matters.) When I retired, there IIRC was a provost, an assistant provost,
an associate provost, a gaggle of secretaries working in an office complex half the size of my house. The number of
athletic facilities has probably quadrupled - and what do sports have to do with education? Documents required for
program accreditation also quadrupled.

Granted, my salary did increase nicely as my career progressed and as I got promotions. But the salary of the part-timers
I had to hire didn't rise for over 25 years at last count. (I'll note that full time faculty do have a union. Part-timers do not.)

- Frank Krygowski

On 9/23/2021 8:09 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 5:40:16 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:52:36 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>>> "The Economic Policy Institute (EPI) estimates that CEO compensation has
>>> grown 1,322% since 1978, while typical worker compensation has risen
>>> just 18%."
>>> https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/15/in-2020-top-ceos-earned-351-times-more-than-the-typical-worker.html
>>>
>>>
>>> Other sources have other estimates, but they are broadly similar. What
>>> is the typical, middle-of-the-curve CEO doing now that is over ten times
>>> as valuable as a CEO in the 1970s?
>> But Frank, an increase in costs are equally true in the field of
>> education.
>> https://educationdata.org/average-cost-of-college-by-year#1950
>> "In 1950, the U-Penn charged undergraduates $625 for the academic
>> year."
>> "Undergraduates attending U-Penn in the 2021-22 academic year will pay
>> $61,170"
>
> I'm very well aware of that, John. I think it's scandalous. I worked to pay my way through college (well, with
> the help of some scholarships or assistantships). I don't think that's nearly as possible now.
>
> And in my view, most of the cost increase has nothing to do with better educational quality. I've observed
> massive increases in campus size, building numbers and sizes, documentation requirements, etc. but most of
> all an incredible increase in the size and cost of the administration.
>
> Early in my career, the university had one Provost with one secretary working out of one small office. (A provost is
> sort of a vice president in charge of academic matters.) When I retired, there IIRC was a provost, an assistant provost,
> an associate provost, a gaggle of secretaries working in an office complex half the size of my house. The number of
> athletic facilities has probably quadrupled - and what do sports have to do with education? Documents required for
> program accreditation also quadrupled.
>
> Granted, my salary did increase nicely as my career progressed and as I got promotions. But the salary of the part-timers
> I had to hire didn't rise for over 25 years at last count. (I'll note that full time faculty do have a union. Part-timers do not.)
>
> - Frank Krygowski
>
>
>

What's the ratio of TA or RA annual compensation to OSU
football coach (usually highest paid university employee)
compensation as compared to, oh, GM line workers to Mary
Barra? Let's find out.

The local 'education racket' shows roughly $16.70 per hour,
$2510/mo for TA/RA:
https://grad.uw.edu/wp-content/uploads/2021-22-TA-RA-SA_salary_chart.pdf

'Annual' may be fanciful. I just don't know. Let's assume it
isn't seasonal and we get $30,120.00

Then Mister Important gets $4,250,000.00 plus perks. A lot
of perks, although less than half the wage of Alabama's
coach. And no one sacks them into the sod either.

https://badgerswire.usatoday.com/2020/10/15/wisconsin-badger-football-paul-chryst-2020-salary/

That's 141 time s base employee rate.

The guys who sing Johnny Cash's "I stole it one piece at a
time" start at $22 per hour and, being UAW, we'll
extrapolate to a union year of $44.000.00.
https://www.glassdoor.com/Hourly-Pay/General-Motors-GM-Assembly-Line-Worker-Hourly-Pay-E279_D_KO18,38.htm

Mary Barra's Board thinks she's worth 40,300,000.00 to GM:
https://gmauthority.com/blog/2021/08/gm-ceo-mary-barra-earned-40-3-million-in-2020-according-to-new-study/

Which is 915X base employee rate.

So you make a good point in one analysis. I could not have
guessed any of those numbers ten minutes ago.

Or, viewed another way, GM is profitable but the local
education industry survives mostly on continuing subsidies.
By me.

Which is 'unfair'?

I'd say GM doesn't have its hand in my pocket so I don't
begrudge them anything.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 15:24:17 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 9:39:49 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
>> On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 8:56:15 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > On 9/23/2021 10:08 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > > On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 6:03:30 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > >> On 9/22/2021 7:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>> You get the sort of world you want and deserve. So don't be surprised when you can't afford to buy a gallon of gas.
>> > >>
>> > >> Tom, you've been posting similar dire warnings and threats for years.
>> > >> And yet, here I am, still prosperous, no economic problems at all.
>> > >>
>> > >> How's your neighborhood doing these days?
>> > >
>> > > Dire warnings when gas here is at $5/gal? Yesterday I went to pick up a set of superlight wheels from a man in Alamo, CA. The houses there had to be seen to be believed. I don't think I saw a house under 3,000 sq ft and most probably at least 5,000. Google maps literally ran me around in circles since every road was being resurfaced. But a block away from me the road surface is practically gravel. Literally.
>> > You need to move out of that hellhole.
>> >
>> > And it's terminally weird that you complain SO MUCH about how terrible
>> > things are where you live. Yet there you stay!
>> > > Again - this is the world you wish for this country and it is going to explode in your face.
>> > I wish for pretty much the world I live in. (Well, maybe less traffic on
>> > the main roads. Not that it's a big problem.)
>> > > Didn't you just post that people without a degree couldn't be hired?
>> > No, and there's your "memory" problem again!
>> > > Well, 5 major companies have contacted me to work for them now that they've chased the degreed people out of this state. Tesla who hung up on me because I predicted their very problems now want me to work for them.
>> > Sure, Tommy. We've heard such claims for years, along with "Groceries
>> > are SO EXPENSIVE!!" Despite your statements, you remain unhappy and
>> > unemployed.
>> >
>> > Let us know when you actually get a job. And please, show proof.
>> > > Why should I work at all?
>> > So you can move out of that hellhole.
>> Save your breath. I figure the Haldol will kick-in maybe three hours after PO administration, so look for a fleeting moment of sanity around 11:30 or Noon PST. Maybe during a lucid interval, Tom will solve the ancient riddle of whether wheels hang or stand on their spokes and whether crank tapers should or should not be greased. If he misses the window, he'll be back to zero COVID deaths and the market falling during the Obama administration, job offers directly from Elon Musk, etc., etc. No amount of fact checking or correction will ever matter. You just have to roll him into a nice sunny spot near the window and the potted philodendron and leave him alone. "Bye-bye Uncle Tom, I have to go to work now. I'll see you tomorrow." [Tom] "F**** you! Communists are in my underwear! There is no COVID . . . . I won the Nobel Prize. What did you do!" [grabbing wheels on wheelchair, neck veins popping, looking out the window]. "I'll kick your ass!" [Other patients look over, confused].
>
>Jay, if you can't figure out the statistics from the CDC why don't you just say so? What is it, the Bayne's theorem? This says that the more information you have the more precise answer you can generate. The information we

Yes Sir! CDC Statistics!
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/covid19/mortality-overview.ht
Deaths Attributed to COVID-19...
Data as of 9/22/2010
672,021
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 9:15:06 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 8:32:35 PM UTC-7, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 6:08:20 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 3:42:58 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > On 9/22/2021 5:31 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I thought that you were a personal injury lawyer?
> > > > I'm shaking my head at Tom's "memory" again.
> > > >
> > > > Wow.
> > > Explain to us all how you were shaking your head after Jay said that he was representing Fauci in a suit for me saying he was insider trading - which he stated in public and then it was promptly erased off of the Internet. Sort of like the White House ordered Facebook to suspend my account for citing the CDC's own statistics.
> > >
> > Oh my gosh Tommy. I understand you being a right wing nut case Trumper Republican Qanon shaman, you have no concept of or understanding of humor, sarcasm, cynicism. Below is Jay's post from earlier in this thread:
> >
> > jbeattie
> > Sep 21, 2021, 12:43:47 PM (yesterday)
> > to
> > Medication time, Tom. In fact, you should not post until you are in therapeutic range, which seems to occur sometime between 11:58 and 12.03 PST. It's a tight window that closes quickly. BTW, I'm representing Anthony Fauci in his defamation suit against you for your unfounded claims of insider trading. We're going to take your house and all your odd-ball last-century Ti bikes with non-functioning Campy groups. Dr. Fauci will be a thousandaire!
> > -- Jay Beattie.
> >
> >
> > Tommy, do you see where Jay wrote "BTW, I'm representing Anthony Fauci in his defamation suit against you for your unfounded claims of insider trading. We're going to take your house and all your odd-ball last-century Ti bikes with non-functioning Campy groups. Dr. Fauci will be a thousandaire!" Notice he wrote claims of insider trading, and take all your odd-ball last-century Ti bikes with non-functioning Campy groups and Dr. Fauci will be a thousandaire!. Jay was using humor, sarcasm to kid you and make fun of you.. And you just gobbled it up. I thought Jay's comments were funny. But your response has really got me laughing hard for actually believing it. HaHaHa..
> >
> > You really think Joe Biden's White House cares enough about you to order Facebook to suspend your account? Your ego or whatever must be bigger than the Goodyear blimp.
> > > You get the sort of world you want and deserve. So don't be surprised when you can't afford to buy a gallon of gas
> Russell, you have finally come to the point where your posting simply show you as being a seriously mentally deranged person who doesn't even know he is. That's OK, you are nothing and will always remain a nothing because you don't even WANT to be successful. You are only interested pulling down those who are. Well, one of the reasons I am successful is because I have never succumbed to the likes of you.
>
> I guess I will have to take another 45 mile ride on my "non-functioning" campy bike made of "last century" titanium while you ride your Schwinn a mile and pretend to be a bicyclist.

You're successful Tommy? Hmmmmm.

As for my old Schwinn, my Mom gave it to an organization in Ottumwa who passed it along to someone. I seem to recall her saying he was slightly defective mentally. I think its best we have stopped using the older re word. She said he rode it around town and to work and back. Liked having it. Seven speed 13-24 Suntour freewheel. 52-40 crankset. Friction downtube Suntour shifters. Centerpull brakes. 27 inch tires. I wonder if those even exist anymore. But Mom told me this 10-15 years ago. I have not asked about my bike since so I do not know if the person and bike are still going or not now.

I generally ride more than a mile when I get on the bike. A mile or less and I just walk. Menards hardware store is 3 miles each way. Home Depot is 2 miles each way. I just use the single speed commuter bike. Front brake only. 50x18 gearing, freewheel. Fixed cog is on the other side of the hub.

On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 8:44:48 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/23/2021 8:09 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 5:40:16 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
> >> On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:52:36 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>
> >>> "The Economic Policy Institute (EPI) estimates that CEO compensation has
> >>> grown 1,322% since 1978, while typical worker compensation has risen
> >>> just 18%."
> >>> https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/15/in-2020-top-ceos-earned-351-times-more-than-the-typical-worker.html
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Other sources have other estimates, but they are broadly similar. What
> >>> is the typical, middle-of-the-curve CEO doing now that is over ten times
> >>> as valuable as a CEO in the 1970s?
> >> But Frank, an increase in costs are equally true in the field of
> >> education.
> >> https://educationdata.org/average-cost-of-college-by-year#1950
> >> "In 1950, the U-Penn charged undergraduates $625 for the academic
> >> year."
> >> "Undergraduates attending U-Penn in the 2021-22 academic year will pay
> >> $61,170"
> >
> > I'm very well aware of that, John. I think it's scandalous. I worked to pay my way through college (well, with
> > the help of some scholarships or assistantships). I don't think that's nearly as possible now.
> >
> > And in my view, most of the cost increase has nothing to do with better educational quality. I've observed
> > massive increases in campus size, building numbers and sizes, documentation requirements, etc. but most of
> > all an incredible increase in the size and cost of the administration.
> >
> > Early in my career, the university had one Provost with one secretary working out of one small office. (A provost is
> > sort of a vice president in charge of academic matters.) When I retired, there IIRC was a provost, an assistant provost,
> > an associate provost, a gaggle of secretaries working in an office complex half the size of my house. The number of
> > athletic facilities has probably quadrupled - and what do sports have to do with education? Documents required for
> > program accreditation also quadrupled.
> >
> > Granted, my salary did increase nicely as my career progressed and as I got promotions. But the salary of the part-timers
> > I had to hire didn't rise for over 25 years at last count. (I'll note that full time faculty do have a union. Part-timers do not.)
> >
> > - Frank Krygowski
> >
> >
> >
> What's the ratio of TA or RA annual compensation to OSU
> football coach (usually highest paid university employee)
> compensation as compared to, oh, GM line workers to Mary
> Barra? Let's find out.
>
> The local 'education racket' shows roughly $16.70 per hour,
> $2510/mo for TA/RA:
> https://grad.uw.edu/wp-content/uploads/2021-22-TA-RA-SA_salary_chart.pdf
>
> 'Annual' may be fanciful. I just don't know. Let's assume it
> isn't seasonal and we get $30,120.00
>
> Then Mister Important gets $4,250,000.00 plus perks. A lot
> of perks, although less than half the wage of Alabama's
> coach. And no one sacks them into the sod either.
>
> https://badgerswire.usatoday.com/2020/10/15/wisconsin-badger-football-paul-chryst-2020-salary/
>
> That's 141 time s base employee rate.
>
> The guys who sing Johnny Cash's "I stole it one piece at a
> time" start at $22 per hour and, being UAW, we'll
> extrapolate to a union year of $44.000.00.
> https://www.glassdoor.com/Hourly-Pay/General-Motors-GM-Assembly-Line-Worker-Hourly-Pay-E279_D_KO18,38.htm
>
> Mary Barra's Board thinks she's worth 40,300,000.00 to GM:
> https://gmauthority.com/blog/2021/08/gm-ceo-mary-barra-earned-40-3-million-in-2020-according-to-new-study/
>
> Which is 915X base employee rate.
>
> So you make a good point in one analysis. I could not have
> guessed any of those numbers ten minutes ago.
>
> Or, viewed another way, GM is profitable but the local
> education industry survives mostly on continuing subsidies.
> By me.
>
> Which is 'unfair'?
>
> I'd say GM doesn't have its hand in my pocket so I don't
> begrudge them anything.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

You made one little tiny mistake in your example Andy. General Motors did receive a government bailout back in 2009 after it declared bankruptcy. $50 billion USA Federal Government taxpayer funded dollars. And an article by Reuters in 2014 says the USA lost $11 billion on the deal. So your statement that GM is profitable may stretch credibility a little bit. As for the unfair question, folks have been talking about the various government bailouts ever since. Fair or not fair. Barra started running GM in Jan 2014 so she is free from blame.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-gm-treasury/u-s-government-says-it-lost-11-2-billion-on-gm-bailout-idUSBREA3T0MR20140430