On Friday, September 24, 2021 at 4:46:18 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/24/2021 2:13 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> >
> > I linked CDC's own summary of the evidence -- what it believes the numbers say. You say that it is not what the numbers say, so you disagree with the CDC. Being that you dropped out of high school and have no scientific education or credentials -- and are apparently brain injured by your own admission -- I think I'll go with the CDC's interpretation of the evidence -- which is, BTW, everybody's interpretation of the evidence except yours.
> +1 of course.
> > BTW, I worked for a funeral home/ambulance company during college, so I understand the pricing/cost structure for funerals -- and the physical process as well, having slung around a lot of dead bodies and watched embalming.
> Everyone who's watched an embalming raise their hands.
>
> (Mine's raised.)

It's a bizarre ritual IMO. Throw me in a cardboard box and into the oven (I never understood why people burned expensive caskets). One funeral will stick in my mind forever -- a girl who jumped out of a dorm window at UC Davis. The parents demanded an open casket funeral or a viewing of some sort, so the owner/embalmer (my boss) basically approximated the shape of her head with cotton packing/embalmers putty and then wrapped it up in plastic wrap to prevent embalming fluid seep-through and then bandages, very neatly wrapped -- and she was buried in a bright flowered spring frock, which struck me as totally bizarre for being buried -- but that's what the parents dropped off. It looked like the invisible man in a dress, minus glasses. That was more disturbing to me than the post autopsy wrecks that my boss also artfully restored. It was the moment I said f*** that.

I love it! The old West Valley Chapel is now a home. https://www.redfin.com/CA/Los-Gatos/300-W-Main-St-95030/home/1131458 You can own it for probably $3.5M. We had the ambulances in the back, now a deck and BBQ. How things change. The kitchen was an office and embalming room. I would hate to see what's in the drains.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 2021-09-24, John B <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 15:24:17 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
><cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 9:39:49 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
>>> On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 8:56:15 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> > On 9/23/2021 10:08 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> > > On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 6:03:30 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> > >> On 9/22/2021 7:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> You get the sort of world you want and deserve. So don't be surprised when you can't afford to buy a gallon of gas.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Tom, you've been posting similar dire warnings and threats for years.
>>> > >> And yet, here I am, still prosperous, no economic problems at all.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> How's your neighborhood doing these days?
>>> > >
>>> > > Dire warnings when gas here is at $5/gal? Yesterday I went to pick up a set of superlight wheels from a man in Alamo, CA. The houses there had to be seen to be believed. I don't think I saw a house under 3,000 sq ft and most probably at least 5,000. Google maps literally ran me around in circles since every road was being resurfaced. But a block away from me the road surface is practically gravel. Literally.
>>> > You need to move out of that hellhole.
>>> >
>>> > And it's terminally weird that you complain SO MUCH about how terrible
>>> > things are where you live. Yet there you stay!
>>> > > Again - this is the world you wish for this country and it is going to explode in your face.
>>> > I wish for pretty much the world I live in. (Well, maybe less traffic on
>>> > the main roads. Not that it's a big problem.)
>>> > > Didn't you just post that people without a degree couldn't be hired?
>>> > No, and there's your "memory" problem again!
>>> > > Well, 5 major companies have contacted me to work for them now that they've chased the degreed people out of this state. Tesla who hung up on me because I predicted their very problems now want me to work for them.
>>> > Sure, Tommy. We've heard such claims for years, along with "Groceries
>>> > are SO EXPENSIVE!!" Despite your statements, you remain unhappy and
>>> > unemployed.
>>> >
>>> > Let us know when you actually get a job. And please, show proof.
>>> > > Why should I work at all?
>>> > So you can move out of that hellhole.
>>> Save your breath. I figure the Haldol will kick-in maybe three hours after PO administration, so look for a fleeting moment of sanity around 11:30 or Noon PST. Maybe during a lucid interval, Tom will solve the ancient riddle of whether wheels hang or stand on their spokes and whether crank tapers should or should not be greased. If he misses the window, he'll be back to zero COVID deaths and the market falling during the Obama administration, job offers directly from Elon Musk, etc., etc. No amount of fact checking or correction will ever matter. You just have to roll him into a nice sunny spot near the window and the potted philodendron and leave him alone. "Bye-bye Uncle Tom, I have to go to work now. I'll see you tomorrow." [Tom] "F**** you! Communists are in my underwear! There is no COVID . . . . I won the Nobel Prize. What did you do!" [grabbing wheels on wheelchair, neck veins popping, looking out the window]. "I'll kick your ass!" [Other patients look over, confused].
>>
>>Jay, if you can't figure out the statistics from the CDC why don't you just say so? What is it, the Bayne's theorem? This says that the more information you have the more precise answer you can generate. The information we
>
> Yes Sir! CDC Statistics!
> https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/covid19/mortality-overview.ht
> Deaths Attributed to COVID-19...
> Data as of 9/22/2010
> 672,021

Since I'm too lazy to go there right now, does the CDC happen to mention
which date they use for a starting point?

ie: how many months is this or whatever unit.
pH in Aptos

On 9/24/2021 8:19 PM, pH wrote:
> On 2021-09-24, John B <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 15:24:17 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 9:39:49 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 8:56:15 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 9/23/2021 10:08 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 6:03:30 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 9/22/2021 7:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You get the sort of world you want and deserve. So don't be surprised when you can't afford to buy a gallon of gas.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tom, you've been posting similar dire warnings and threats for years.
>>>>>>> And yet, here I am, still prosperous, no economic problems at all.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How's your neighborhood doing these days?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dire warnings when gas here is at $5/gal? Yesterday I went to pick up a set of superlight wheels from a man in Alamo, CA. The houses there had to be seen to be believed. I don't think I saw a house under 3,000 sq ft and most probably at least 5,000. Google maps literally ran me around in circles since every road was being resurfaced. But a block away from me the road surface is practically gravel. Literally.
>>>>> You need to move out of that hellhole.
>>>>>
>>>>> And it's terminally weird that you complain SO MUCH about how terrible
>>>>> things are where you live. Yet there you stay!
>>>>>> Again - this is the world you wish for this country and it is going to explode in your face.
>>>>> I wish for pretty much the world I live in. (Well, maybe less traffic on
>>>>> the main roads. Not that it's a big problem.)
>>>>>> Didn't you just post that people without a degree couldn't be hired?
>>>>> No, and there's your "memory" problem again!
>>>>>> Well, 5 major companies have contacted me to work for them now that they've chased the degreed people out of this state. Tesla who hung up on me because I predicted their very problems now want me to work for them.
>>>>> Sure, Tommy. We've heard such claims for years, along with "Groceries
>>>>> are SO EXPENSIVE!!" Despite your statements, you remain unhappy and
>>>>> unemployed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let us know when you actually get a job. And please, show proof.
>>>>>> Why should I work at all?
>>>>> So you can move out of that hellhole.
>>>> Save your breath. I figure the Haldol will kick-in maybe three hours after PO administration, so look for a fleeting moment of sanity around 11:30 or Noon PST. Maybe during a lucid interval, Tom will solve the ancient riddle of whether wheels hang or stand on their spokes and whether crank tapers should or should not be greased. If he misses the window, he'll be back to zero COVID deaths and the market falling during the Obama administration, job offers directly from Elon Musk, etc., etc. No amount of fact checking or correction will ever matter. You just have to roll him into a nice sunny spot near the window and the potted philodendron and leave him alone. "Bye-bye Uncle Tom, I have to go to work now. I'll see you tomorrow." [Tom] "F**** you! Communists are in my underwear! There is no COVID . . . . I won the Nobel Prize. What did you do!" [grabbing wheels on wheelchair, neck veins popping, looking out the window]. "I'll kick your ass!" [Other patients look over, confused].
>>>
>>> Jay, if you can't figure out the statistics from the CDC why don't you just say so? What is it, the Bayne's theorem? This says that the more information you have the more precise answer you can generate. The information we
>>
>> Yes Sir! CDC Statistics!
>> https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/covid19/mortality-overview.ht
>> Deaths Attributed to COVID-19...
>> Data as of 9/22/2010
>> 672,021
>
> Since I'm too lazy to go there right now, does the CDC happen to mention
> which date they use for a starting point?
>
> ie: how many months is this or whatever unit.
> pH in Aptos
>

CDC says everything and anything in pursuit of some vague
policy goals including 'universal acceptance' of the mRNA
jab. They have not been effective in that pursuit:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/what-do-lefty-anti-vaxxers-do-now/620092/

With the result that some large blocs (the loopy left, their
bizarro doppelgangers the libertarian preppers, younger
people generally and young black men in particular have
hardened their resistance. To which the President recently
doubled down, taking a page from Taliban 2.0, "Submit or die."

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/09/us/politics/biden-mandates-vaccines.html

This will not be persuasive in our culture.

(note citations are not from Daily Stormer or Screwy Louie
Farrakhan. They're lefty, if not communist, publications
usually aligned to Mr Biden)

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 19:36:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 9/24/2021 2:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 9/24/2021 12:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 9/23/2021 8:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 11:30:19 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 9/22/2021 11:47 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 18:38:27 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Increases in productivity - especially modern ones -
>>>>>>> have led to huge
>>>>>>> compensation increases and bonuses for top executives,
>>>>>>> but wages of
>>>>>>> ordinary workers have not risen in parallel. In fact,
>>>>>>> when productivity
>>>>>>> rises ordinary workers may suffer layoffs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lee Iacocca basically kept Chrysler from going bankrupt
>>>>>> saving the
>>>>>> jobs of, probably, 15,000, or maybe more people. Doesn't
>>>>>> he deserve a
>>>>>> big raise?
>>>>>
>>>>> John, I think the general run of things has been like this:
>>>>>
>>>>> "CEO Jack made some executive decisions that probably
>>>>> prevented stock
>>>>> prices dropping 10%. He deserves a million dollar bonus
>>>>> for doing his job!"
>>>>>
>>>>> versus
>>>>>
>>>>> "Maintenance supervisor Joe noticed a stamping press
>>>>> bearing nearing
>>>>> failure and got it speedily repaired. That prevented the
>>>>> entire
>>>>> production line shutting down, which would probably have
>>>>> dropped stock
>>>>> prices 10%. But he was just doing his job."
>>>>>
>>>>> Top executives' salaries have skyrocketed in recent
>>>>> decades, to obscene
>>>>> levels. Ordinary workers' salaries have stagnated, if
>>>>> indeed their jobs
>>>>> haven't been shipped offshore.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it's time to hire cheap CEOs (and university
>>>>> presidents) from
>>>>> India. Why can't those jobs be done remotely?
>>>>
>>>> You over simplify things.
>>>>
>>>> First case... Manager prevented stock prices from dropping
>>>> 10%.
>>>> Doesn't sound like much, but what did this do to the
>>>> corporation's
>>>> over all financial standing? Would banks be less inclined
>>>> to finance
>>>> the company when shares prices dropped? Ask Andrew whether
>>>> it is
>>>> easier for a company to borrow money when it is doing
>>>> "very well,
>>>> thank you", or when "we are still keeping our head above
>>>> water".
>>>>
>>>>   As for jobs migrating overseas? And I'm sure that
>>>> corporate managers
>>>> are even getting raises for doing so. I read, for example,
>>>> that
>>>> Amazon, in the U.S., pays $15/hour. Minimum salary in
>>>> Thailand is 300
>>>> baht a day, about $1.14/hour at current exchange rates.
>>>>
>>>> Amazon employs some 1 million people in the U.S. so
>>>> average daily
>>>> wages is something like $120,000,000 in the U.S. A move to
>>>> Thailand
>>>> would result in a decrease in daily wages to $9,120,000, a
>>>> savings of
>>>> $110,880,000.
>>>>
>>>> Tell me, wouldn't a reduction in corporate costs of
>>>> $110,880,000 a day
>>>> be worth a very substantial bonus to management.
>>>
>>> I have no doubt that offshoring jobs can raise corporate
>>> profits, and generate bonuses for top executives. But the
>>> other effect is the impoverishing of workers lower on the
>>> organization chart.
>>>
>>> And that's not merely the bottom of the chart. A former huge
>>> employer of engineers, technicians, administrators etc. in
>>> our area is gone due to that process, causing much economic
>>> harm to everyone who was not at the very top. Even retirees
>>> who thought their pensions were secure took a major, major hit.
>>>
>>> It's a concrete example of the rich getting even richer at
>>> the expense of the middle and lower classes. But any
>>> proposal to raise taxes on the rich gets painted as
>>> "punishing hard work" or other nonsense.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> All that's true but there's both pull and push.
>>
>> The other side of the equation is draconian punishment by EPA and all
>> the other departments bureaus and agencies, Fed & State) of anyone who
>> makes anything and in particular anyone who employs anyone. At some
>> point a rational man says no and walks away. As evidenced.
>>
>> Tax treatment is another area. I will never understand how 'race to the
>> bottom' is pejorative!  WTF? It's as if some engineer were despairing,
>> 'We just can't further reduce the efficiency of this process'. 'Race to
>> the bottom' sounds like an honorable quest to me, like less disease,
>> slower corrosion, less waste etc.
>
>I have no doubt that there are plenty of over-burdensome regulations;
>but I also have no doubt there are those who will push, lobby and bribe
>to get rid of clearly beneficial regulations.
>
>The local river is a case in point. It was lined with steel mills for
>many decades and was a horrid chemical mess, quite devoid of life. The
>steel mills almost all went away in the late 1970s, and only now, 40
>years later, is the river becoming acceptably clean. However, kayakers
>are still warned not to actually stand on the bottom in many places,
>because one's feet can sink down to the deep layer of grease that still
>remains under the bottom's silt. (And BTW, a wealthy owner of a small
>company was convicted just a few years ago of having his employee dump
>waste oil into the river.)
>
>But "race to the bottom" has never, AFAIK, referred to highest
>efficiency or lowest waste of energy or material, etc. IME it's most
>often used to refer to the fact that companies move operations to
>locations where salaries and benefits are lowest. The large local tech
>company I referred to earlier sent most of its production and even
>design to Mexico. (I knew engineers who were forced to teach Mexican
>engineers their design skills.)
>
>For some companies, Mexican labor is too expensive, so jobs are shifted
>to even cheaper labor markets. In effect, American workers are asked to
>compete against near slave wages in other countries. That's the bottom,
>and it's not a good place for an American to be.

I'm being a bit "picky" I know but I really can't agree with your
"near slave wages". How would you quantify that?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Friday, September 24, 2021 at 5:03:52 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/24/2021 6:42 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >
> >
> > America is a land of extreme income disparity, and even more
> > extreme wealth disparity. Those disparities are far larger
> > than in many prosperous European and Asian countries.
> >
> > I don't see that situation as being good for the nation, or
> > for society. We've already seen disastrous effects of
> > disenfranchized folks voting for a shyster celebrity who
> > pretended that he would single-handedly fix their problems.
> > ("Those jobs are all coming back! Don't sell your houses!")
> >
> > There are historical examples of similar situations
> > triggering revolutions, resulting in much bloodshed and
> > misery but ultimately no real improvement. We don't need that.
> >
> >
> This country does not in fact display 'income disparity'
> whatever that means beyond nornmal human diversity.

The U.S. displays a lot more income disparity than most European nations.

https://wid.world/news-article/why-is-europe-more-equal-than-the-united-states/

https://www.vox.com/2018/7/29/17627134/income-inequality-chart

- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 19:42:49 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 9/24/2021 7:19 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 13:11:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> It's a concrete example of the rich getting even richer at the expense
>>> of the middle and lower classes. But any proposal to raise taxes on the
>>> rich gets painted as "punishing hard work" or other nonsense.
>>
>> Frank, the "rich" always get richer at the expense of the lower
>> classes, how can it be any different? And lets be honest, your "job"
>> wasn't to educate some poor, improvised, layabout, it was to educate
>> those who could afford to pay your price. and, as you have told us,
>> you are pretty well off these days.
>
>I am pretty well off. But I don't believe the rich must always get
>richer at the expense of the lower classes - at least, not to the degree
>it happens in this country.
>
>America is a land of extreme income disparity, and even more extreme
>wealth disparity. Those disparities are far larger than in many
>prosperous European and Asian countries.
>
>I don't see that situation as being good for the nation, or for society.
>We've already seen disastrous effects of disenfranchized folks voting
>for a shyster celebrity who pretended that he would single-handedly fix
>their problems. ("Those jobs are all coming back! Don't sell your houses!")
>
>There are historical examples of similar situations triggering
>revolutions, resulting in much bloodshed and misery but ultimately no
>real improvement. We don't need that.

I recently looked up "rich folks" on the Web and it seems that
something like 64% of them are rich because of their own efforts. And,
I read, that Only 21% of millionaires received any inheritance at all.
So... is it justifiable to effectively penalize these "get up and go"
people because the multitudes don't have the push to get ahead?

I'm not bragging but during my military career, during the periods I
was in the U.S. I always worked a "part time" job. Not because I
needed to, in fact I found my military pay quite sufficient, but
because I wanted to. Should I be penalized because I've got a bit more
then the bloke who is, at least to my mind, too lazy to go after it?

My wife's older sister's, son's, family, has visited and the eldest
child, a girl, is "going to collage". I asked the, younger, son, who
has graduated from high school, what he was doing and he told me that
he and his mates "worked at the Dollar Shop, unloading trucks" a
couple of days a week for $15.00 an hour and that was "all we need".

Who do you think has the best chance at getting rich?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Friday, September 24, 2021 at 6:34:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/24/2021 8:19 PM, pH wrote:
> > On 2021-09-24, John B <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 15:24:17 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> >> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 9:39:49 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
> >>>> On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 8:56:15 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>> On 9/23/2021 10:08 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>> On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 6:03:30 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 9/22/2021 7:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> You get the sort of world you want and deserve. So don't be surprised when you can't afford to buy a gallon of gas.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tom, you've been posting similar dire warnings and threats for years.
> >>>>>>> And yet, here I am, still prosperous, no economic problems at all..
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> How's your neighborhood doing these days?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Dire warnings when gas here is at $5/gal? Yesterday I went to pick up a set of superlight wheels from a man in Alamo, CA. The houses there had to be seen to be believed. I don't think I saw a house under 3,000 sq ft and most probably at least 5,000. Google maps literally ran me around in circles since every road was being resurfaced. But a block away from me the road surface is practically gravel. Literally.
> >>>>> You need to move out of that hellhole.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And it's terminally weird that you complain SO MUCH about how terrible
> >>>>> things are where you live. Yet there you stay!
> >>>>>> Again - this is the world you wish for this country and it is going to explode in your face.
> >>>>> I wish for pretty much the world I live in. (Well, maybe less traffic on
> >>>>> the main roads. Not that it's a big problem.)
> >>>>>> Didn't you just post that people without a degree couldn't be hired?
> >>>>> No, and there's your "memory" problem again!
> >>>>>> Well, 5 major companies have contacted me to work for them now that they've chased the degreed people out of this state. Tesla who hung up on me because I predicted their very problems now want me to work for them.
> >>>>> Sure, Tommy. We've heard such claims for years, along with "Groceries
> >>>>> are SO EXPENSIVE!!" Despite your statements, you remain unhappy and
> >>>>> unemployed.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Let us know when you actually get a job. And please, show proof.
> >>>>>> Why should I work at all?
> >>>>> So you can move out of that hellhole.
> >>>> Save your breath. I figure the Haldol will kick-in maybe three hours after PO administration, so look for a fleeting moment of sanity around 11:30 or Noon PST. Maybe during a lucid interval, Tom will solve the ancient riddle of whether wheels hang or stand on their spokes and whether crank tapers should or should not be greased. If he misses the window, he'll be back to zero COVID deaths and the market falling during the Obama administration, job offers directly from Elon Musk, etc., etc. No amount of fact checking or correction will ever matter. You just have to roll him into a nice sunny spot near the window and the potted philodendron and leave him alone. "Bye-bye Uncle Tom, I have to go to work now. I'll see you tomorrow." [Tom] "F**** you! Communists are in my underwear! There is no COVID . . . . I won the Nobel Prize. What did you do!" [grabbing wheels on wheelchair, neck veins popping, looking out the window]. "I'll kick your ass!" [Other patients look over, confused].
> >>>
> >>> Jay, if you can't figure out the statistics from the CDC why don't you just say so? What is it, the Bayne's theorem? This says that the more information you have the more precise answer you can generate. The information we
> >>
> >> Yes Sir! CDC Statistics!
> >> https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/covid19/mortality-overview.ht
> >> Deaths Attributed to COVID-19...
> >> Data as of 9/22/2010
> >> 672,021
> >
> > Since I'm too lazy to go there right now, does the CDC happen to mention
> > which date they use for a starting point?
> >
> > ie: how many months is this or whatever unit.
> > pH in Aptos
> >
> CDC says everything and anything in pursuit of some vague
> policy goals including 'universal acceptance' of the mRNA
> jab. They have not been effective in that pursuit:
>
> https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/what-do-lefty-anti-vaxxers-do-now/620092/
>
> With the result that some large blocs (the loopy left, their
> bizarro doppelgangers the libertarian preppers, younger
> people generally and young black men in particular have
> hardened their resistance. To which the President recently
> doubled down, taking a page from Taliban 2.0, "Submit or die."
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/09/us/politics/biden-mandates-vaccines.html
>
> This will not be persuasive in our culture.
>
> (note citations are not from Daily Stormer or Screwy Louie
> Farrakhan. They're lefty, if not communist, publications
> usually aligned to Mr Biden)

I don't think younger people in general are hardened, at least not my son's cohort of late twenty-somethings. They want to get back to work and an ordinary-ish life and are eager to get the vaccine. And I didn't take my cue from the CDC. I was listening to healthcare professionals. We have easy access to them at work, and I don't suspect Pfizer of malfeasance for a number of reasons.

And what is the sinister agenda of the CDC? My assumption is the epidemiologists who prepared the study I cited are honestly interpreting data. The CDC could be wrong, but why would it have an agenda to misstate the data? Are JAMA and Lancet co-conspirators? You would also think that if the CDC was trying to prop-up Biden, then the data on the Delta variant would be less dire. It isn't. Biden may be getting over his skis with the booster, but the FDA will make that call.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 18:58:53 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 9/24/2021 6:36 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/24/2021 2:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 9/24/2021 12:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 9/23/2021 8:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 11:30:19 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 9/22/2021 11:47 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 18:38:27 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Increases in productivity - especially modern ones -
>>>>>>>> have led to huge
>>>>>>>> compensation increases and bonuses for top executives,
>>>>>>>> but wages of
>>>>>>>> ordinary workers have not risen in parallel. In fact,
>>>>>>>> when productivity
>>>>>>>> rises ordinary workers may suffer layoffs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lee Iacocca basically kept Chrysler from going bankrupt
>>>>>>> saving the
>>>>>>> jobs of, probably, 15,000, or maybe more people. Doesn't
>>>>>>> he deserve a
>>>>>>> big raise?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John, I think the general run of things has been like
>>>>>> this:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "CEO Jack made some executive decisions that probably
>>>>>> prevented stock
>>>>>> prices dropping 10%. He deserves a million dollar bonus
>>>>>> for doing his job!"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> versus
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Maintenance supervisor Joe noticed a stamping press
>>>>>> bearing nearing
>>>>>> failure and got it speedily repaired. That prevented the
>>>>>> entire
>>>>>> production line shutting down, which would probably have
>>>>>> dropped stock
>>>>>> prices 10%. But he was just doing his job."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Top executives' salaries have skyrocketed in recent
>>>>>> decades, to obscene
>>>>>> levels. Ordinary workers' salaries have stagnated, if
>>>>>> indeed their jobs
>>>>>> haven't been shipped offshore.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think it's time to hire cheap CEOs (and university
>>>>>> presidents) from
>>>>>> India. Why can't those jobs be done remotely?
>>>>>
>>>>> You over simplify things.
>>>>>
>>>>> First case... Manager prevented stock prices from dropping
>>>>> 10%.
>>>>> Doesn't sound like much, but what did this do to the
>>>>> corporation's
>>>>> over all financial standing? Would banks be less inclined
>>>>> to finance
>>>>> the company when shares prices dropped? Ask Andrew whether
>>>>> it is
>>>>> easier for a company to borrow money when it is doing
>>>>> "very well,
>>>>> thank you", or when "we are still keeping our head above
>>>>> water".
>>>>>
>>>>> Â As for jobs migrating overseas? And I'm sure that
>>>>> corporate managers
>>>>> are even getting raises for doing so. I read, for example,
>>>>> that
>>>>> Amazon, in the U.S., pays $15/hour. Minimum salary in
>>>>> Thailand is 300
>>>>> baht a day, about $1.14/hour at current exchange rates.
>>>>>
>>>>> Amazon employs some 1 million people in the U.S. so
>>>>> average daily
>>>>> wages is something like $120,000,000 in the U.S. A move to
>>>>> Thailand
>>>>> would result in a decrease in daily wages to $9,120,000, a
>>>>> savings of
>>>>> $110,880,000.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tell me, wouldn't a reduction in corporate costs of
>>>>> $110,880,000 a day
>>>>> be worth a very substantial bonus to management.
>>>>
>>>> I have no doubt that offshoring jobs can raise corporate
>>>> profits, and generate bonuses for top executives. But the
>>>> other effect is the impoverishing of workers lower on the
>>>> organization chart.
>>>>
>>>> And that's not merely the bottom of the chart. A former huge
>>>> employer of engineers, technicians, administrators etc. in
>>>> our area is gone due to that process, causing much economic
>>>> harm to everyone who was not at the very top. Even retirees
>>>> who thought their pensions were secure took a major,
>>>> major hit.
>>>>
>>>> It's a concrete example of the rich getting even richer at
>>>> the expense of the middle and lower classes. But any
>>>> proposal to raise taxes on the rich gets painted as
>>>> "punishing hard work" or other nonsense.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> All that's true but there's both pull and push.
>>>
>>> The other side of the equation is draconian punishment by
>>> EPA and all the other departments bureaus and agencies,
>>> Fed & State) of anyone who makes anything and in
>>> particular anyone who employs anyone. At some point a
>>> rational man says no and walks away. As evidenced.
>>>
>>> Tax treatment is another area. I will never understand how
>>> 'race to the bottom' is pejorative! WTF? It's as if some
>>> engineer were despairing, 'We just can't further reduce
>>> the efficiency of this process'. 'Race to the bottom'
>>> sounds like an honorable quest to me, like less disease,
>>> slower corrosion, less waste etc.
>>
>> I have no doubt that there are plenty of over-burdensome
>> regulations; but I also have no doubt there are those who
>> will push, lobby and bribe to get rid of clearly beneficial
>> regulations.
>>
>> The local river is a case in point. It was lined with steel
>> mills for many decades and was a horrid chemical mess, quite
>> devoid of life. The steel mills almost all went away in the
>> late 1970s, and only now, 40 years later, is the river
>> becoming acceptably clean. However, kayakers are still
>> warned not to actually stand on the bottom in many places,
>> because one's feet can sink down to the deep layer of grease
>> that still remains under the bottom's silt. (And BTW, a
>> wealthy owner of a small company was convicted just a few
>> years ago of having his employee dump waste oil into the
>> river.)
>>
>> But "race to the bottom" has never, AFAIK, referred to
>> highest efficiency or lowest waste of energy or material,
>> etc. IME it's most often used to refer to the fact that
>> companies move operations to locations where salaries and
>> benefits are lowest. The large local tech company I referred
>> to earlier sent most of its production and even design to
>> Mexico. (I knew engineers who were forced to teach Mexican
>> engineers their design skills.)
>>
>> For some companies, Mexican labor is too expensive, so jobs
>> are shifted to even cheaper labor markets. In effect,
>> American workers are asked to compete against near slave
>> wages in other countries. That's the bottom, and it's not a
>> good place for an American to be.
>>
>
>The phrase 'race to the bottom' has been invoked repeatedly
>all summer by Ms Yellen and a host of US House & Senate
>loudmouths as regards tax rates. It's such a destructive
>and obviously suicidal idea to raise taxes on our own firms
>that they're reduced to empty phrases and arm twisting other
>countries to raise theirs as well.
>
>If you read that to infer that I advocate lower wages for US
>workers, you misunderstood me.

It isn't a matter of wages, it is the U.S. economy. Not good or bad,
but is simply more costly to live in the U.S., then in other places.

On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 19:03:51 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 9/24/2021 6:42 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/24/2021 7:19 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 13:11:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's a concrete example of the rich getting even richer
>>>> at the expense
>>>> of the middle and lower classes. But any proposal to
>>>> raise taxes on the
>>>> rich gets painted as "punishing hard work" or other
>>>> nonsense.
>>>
>>> Frank, the "rich" always get richer at the expense of the
>>> lower
>>> classes, how can it be any different? And lets be honest,
>>> your "job"
>>> wasn't to educate some poor, improvised, layabout, it was
>>> to educate
>>> those who could afford to pay your price. and, as you have
>>> told us,
>>> you are pretty well off these days.
>>
>> I am pretty well off. But I don't believe the rich must
>> always get richer at the expense of the lower classes - at
>> least, not to the degree it happens in this country.
>>
>> America is a land of extreme income disparity, and even more
>> extreme wealth disparity. Those disparities are far larger
>> than in many prosperous European and Asian countries.
>>
>> I don't see that situation as being good for the nation, or
>> for society. We've already seen disastrous effects of
>> disenfranchized folks voting for a shyster celebrity who
>> pretended that he would single-handedly fix their problems.
>> ("Those jobs are all coming back! Don't sell your houses!")
>>
>> There are historical examples of similar situations
>> triggering revolutions, resulting in much bloodshed and
>> misery but ultimately no real improvement. We don't need that.
>>
>>
>
>This country does not in fact display 'income disparity'
>whatever that means beyond nornmal human diversity. The
>institutional and regulatory disincentives to hire/work are
>more than offset by massive transfer payments which are not
>included in the breathless reports of 'inequality'.
>
>You might say that's a ridiculous inefficient and unfair
>setup for the taxpayer, as I do, but here we are.

I read that the federal budget proposal for fiscal year (FY) 2022, is
$6.011 trillion. Of this it is estimated that $4.018 trillion is
Mandatory spending. This category includes entitlement programs such
as Social Security, Medicare, and unemployment compensation. It also
includes welfare programs such as Medicaid.

It appears that 66.8% of the budget is paid to the poor, downtrodden,
impoverished, multitudes (:-(
https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-federal-budget-breakdown-3305789
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 25 Sep 2021 01:19:04 -0000 (UTC), pH <wNOSPAMp@gmail.org>
wrote:

>On 2021-09-24, John B <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 15:24:17 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>><cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 9:39:49 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 8:56:15 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> > On 9/23/2021 10:08 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> > > On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 6:03:30 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> > >> On 9/22/2021 7:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> You get the sort of world you want and deserve. So don't be surprised when you can't afford to buy a gallon of gas.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> Tom, you've been posting similar dire warnings and threats for years.
>>>> > >> And yet, here I am, still prosperous, no economic problems at all.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> How's your neighborhood doing these days?
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Dire warnings when gas here is at $5/gal? Yesterday I went to pick up a set of superlight wheels from a man in Alamo, CA. The houses there had to be seen to be believed. I don't think I saw a house under 3,000 sq ft and most probably at least 5,000. Google maps literally ran me around in circles since every road was being resurfaced. But a block away from me the road surface is practically gravel. Literally.
>>>> > You need to move out of that hellhole.
>>>> >
>>>> > And it's terminally weird that you complain SO MUCH about how terrible
>>>> > things are where you live. Yet there you stay!
>>>> > > Again - this is the world you wish for this country and it is going to explode in your face.
>>>> > I wish for pretty much the world I live in. (Well, maybe less traffic on
>>>> > the main roads. Not that it's a big problem.)
>>>> > > Didn't you just post that people without a degree couldn't be hired?
>>>> > No, and there's your "memory" problem again!
>>>> > > Well, 5 major companies have contacted me to work for them now that they've chased the degreed people out of this state. Tesla who hung up on me because I predicted their very problems now want me to work for them.
>>>> > Sure, Tommy. We've heard such claims for years, along with "Groceries
>>>> > are SO EXPENSIVE!!" Despite your statements, you remain unhappy and
>>>> > unemployed.
>>>> >
>>>> > Let us know when you actually get a job. And please, show proof.
>>>> > > Why should I work at all?
>>>> > So you can move out of that hellhole.
>>>> Save your breath. I figure the Haldol will kick-in maybe three hours after PO administration, so look for a fleeting moment of sanity around 11:30 or Noon PST. Maybe during a lucid interval, Tom will solve the ancient riddle of whether wheels hang or stand on their spokes and whether crank tapers should or should not be greased. If he misses the window, he'll be back to zero COVID deaths and the market falling during the Obama administration, job offers directly from Elon Musk, etc., etc. No amount of fact checking or correction will ever matter. You just have to roll him into a nice sunny spot near the window and the potted philodendron and leave him alone. "Bye-bye Uncle Tom, I have to go to work now. I'll see you tomorrow." [Tom] "F**** you! Communists are in my underwear! There is no COVID . . . . I won the Nobel Prize. What did you do!" [grabbing wheels on wheelchair, neck veins popping, looking out the window]. "I'll kick your ass!" [Other patients look over, confused].
>>>
>>>Jay, if you can't figure out the statistics from the CDC why don't you just say so? What is it, the Bayne's theorem? This says that the more information you have the more precise answer you can generate. The information we
>>
>> Yes Sir! CDC Statistics!
>> https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/covid19/mortality-overview.ht
>> Deaths Attributed to COVID-19...
>> Data as of 9/22/2010
>> 672,021
>
>Since I'm too lazy to go there right now, does the CDC happen to mention
>which date they use for a starting point?
>
>ie: how many months is this or whatever unit.
>pH in Aptos

The above is not a valid address and someone else has posted a
correction but according to
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
who's numbers seem to be derived from CDC figures shows 21 Mar 2020 as
the first 25 deaths caused by the virus..
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/#graph-deaths-daily
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 9/24/2021 9:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On Friday, September 24, 2021 at 5:03:52 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 9/24/2021 6:42 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> America is a land of extreme income disparity, and even more
>>> extreme wealth disparity. Those disparities are far larger
>>> than in many prosperous European and Asian countries.
>>>
>>> I don't see that situation as being good for the nation, or
>>> for society. We've already seen disastrous effects of
>>> disenfranchized folks voting for a shyster celebrity who
>>> pretended that he would single-handedly fix their problems.
>>> ("Those jobs are all coming back! Don't sell your houses!")
>>>
>>> There are historical examples of similar situations
>>> triggering revolutions, resulting in much bloodshed and
>>> misery but ultimately no real improvement. We don't need that.
>>>
>>>
>> This country does not in fact display 'income disparity'
>> whatever that means beyond nornmal human diversity.
>
> The U.S. displays a lot more income disparity than most European nations.
>
> https://wid.world/news-article/why-is-europe-more-equal-than-the-united-states/
>
> https://www.vox.com/2018/7/29/17627134/income-inequality-chart
>
> - Frank Krygowski
>

Add in transfer payments and the 'disparity' disappears.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, September 24, 2021 at 4:35:14 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 11:33:44 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> >I expect nothing from these children. Their entire lives are disagreeing with anyone that actually knows what they are speaking of. I spent my entire life from childhood learning science and what makes the world work, These tiddly-winks want to think that they can know about it by reading an article on the Internet that takes them 3 minutes and in which they become bored.
> My goodness! "entire life from childhood learning science and what
> makes the world work" Yes Sir!
>
> But Tommy you have told us that (1) you weren't intelligent enough to
> even be able to graduate from high school, and (2) you've told us
> about atom bombs that could "sink" an island and as proof showed us
> the results of a meteor strike, and (3) you've told us all about
> making all those complex scientific machines and as proof have
> demonstrated, repeatedly, that you can't even assemble a bicycle
> without help from Jay.
>
> I can only comment that Science in America must be at a very low
> level.

John, where did you get any idea what science is? You would have a very hard time explaining where and how you get water pressure and you worked on these sorts of construction projects? You are no doubt the normal staggering vet drunk that isn't in the USA because he would be a homeless drug addict. In Thailand you can be a drug addict with a home.

On Friday, September 24, 2021 at 4:36:07 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/24/2021 2:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 9/24/2021 12:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 9/23/2021 8:16 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 11:30:19 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 9/22/2021 11:47 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 18:38:27 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Increases in productivity - especially modern ones -
> >>>>>> have led to huge
> >>>>>> compensation increases and bonuses for top executives,
> >>>>>> but wages of
> >>>>>> ordinary workers have not risen in parallel. In fact,
> >>>>>> when productivity
> >>>>>> rises ordinary workers may suffer layoffs.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Lee Iacocca basically kept Chrysler from going bankrupt
> >>>>> saving the
> >>>>> jobs of, probably, 15,000, or maybe more people. Doesn't
> >>>>> he deserve a
> >>>>> big raise?
> >>>>
> >>>> John, I think the general run of things has been like this:
> >>>>
> >>>> "CEO Jack made some executive decisions that probably
> >>>> prevented stock
> >>>> prices dropping 10%. He deserves a million dollar bonus
> >>>> for doing his job!"
> >>>>
> >>>> versus
> >>>>
> >>>> "Maintenance supervisor Joe noticed a stamping press
> >>>> bearing nearing
> >>>> failure and got it speedily repaired. That prevented the
> >>>> entire
> >>>> production line shutting down, which would probably have
> >>>> dropped stock
> >>>> prices 10%. But he was just doing his job."
> >>>>
> >>>> Top executives' salaries have skyrocketed in recent
> >>>> decades, to obscene
> >>>> levels. Ordinary workers' salaries have stagnated, if
> >>>> indeed their jobs
> >>>> haven't been shipped offshore.
> >>>>
> >>>> I think it's time to hire cheap CEOs (and university
> >>>> presidents) from
> >>>> India. Why can't those jobs be done remotely?
> >>>
> >>> You over simplify things.
> >>>
> >>> First case... Manager prevented stock prices from dropping
> >>> 10%.
> >>> Doesn't sound like much, but what did this do to the
> >>> corporation's
> >>> over all financial standing? Would banks be less inclined
> >>> to finance
> >>> the company when shares prices dropped? Ask Andrew whether
> >>> it is
> >>> easier for a company to borrow money when it is doing
> >>> "very well,
> >>> thank you", or when "we are still keeping our head above
> >>> water".
> >>>
> >>> As for jobs migrating overseas? And I'm sure that
> >>> corporate managers
> >>> are even getting raises for doing so. I read, for example,
> >>> that
> >>> Amazon, in the U.S., pays $15/hour. Minimum salary in
> >>> Thailand is 300
> >>> baht a day, about $1.14/hour at current exchange rates.
> >>>
> >>> Amazon employs some 1 million people in the U.S. so
> >>> average daily
> >>> wages is something like $120,000,000 in the U.S. A move to
> >>> Thailand
> >>> would result in a decrease in daily wages to $9,120,000, a
> >>> savings of
> >>> $110,880,000.
> >>>
> >>> Tell me, wouldn't a reduction in corporate costs of
> >>> $110,880,000 a day
> >>> be worth a very substantial bonus to management.
> >>
> >> I have no doubt that offshoring jobs can raise corporate
> >> profits, and generate bonuses for top executives. But the
> >> other effect is the impoverishing of workers lower on the
> >> organization chart.
> >>
> >> And that's not merely the bottom of the chart. A former huge
> >> employer of engineers, technicians, administrators etc. in
> >> our area is gone due to that process, causing much economic
> >> harm to everyone who was not at the very top. Even retirees
> >> who thought their pensions were secure took a major, major hit.
> >>
> >> It's a concrete example of the rich getting even richer at
> >> the expense of the middle and lower classes. But any
> >> proposal to raise taxes on the rich gets painted as
> >> "punishing hard work" or other nonsense.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > All that's true but there's both pull and push.
> >
> > The other side of the equation is draconian punishment by EPA and all
> > the other departments bureaus and agencies, Fed & State) of anyone who
> > makes anything and in particular anyone who employs anyone. At some
> > point a rational man says no and walks away. As evidenced.
> >
> > Tax treatment is another area. I will never understand how 'race to the
> > bottom' is pejorative! WTF? It's as if some engineer were despairing,
> > 'We just can't further reduce the efficiency of this process'. 'Race to
> > the bottom' sounds like an honorable quest to me, like less disease,
> > slower corrosion, less waste etc.
> I have no doubt that there are plenty of over-burdensome regulations;
> but I also have no doubt there are those who will push, lobby and bribe
> to get rid of clearly beneficial regulations.
>
> The local river is a case in point. It was lined with steel mills for
> many decades and was a horrid chemical mess, quite devoid of life. The
> steel mills almost all went away in the late 1970s, and only now, 40
> years later, is the river becoming acceptably clean. However, kayakers
> are still warned not to actually stand on the bottom in many places,
> because one's feet can sink down to the deep layer of grease that still
> remains under the bottom's silt. (And BTW, a wealthy owner of a small
> company was convicted just a few years ago of having his employee dump
> waste oil into the river.)
>
> But "race to the bottom" has never, AFAIK, referred to highest
> efficiency or lowest waste of energy or material, etc. IME it's most
> often used to refer to the fact that companies move operations to
> locations where salaries and benefits are lowest. The large local tech
> company I referred to earlier sent most of its production and even
> design to Mexico. (I knew engineers who were forced to teach Mexican
> engineers their design skills.)
>
> For some companies, Mexican labor is too expensive, so jobs are shifted
> to even cheaper labor markets. In effect, American workers are asked to
> compete against near slave wages in other countries. That's the bottom,
> and it's not a good place for an American to be.

Frank - what cheaper labor markets? Illegal aliens in the US will not work because the Democrats are paying them not to work. They are using your money so smile for the candid camera. Cheaper labor in China? No, there isn't - China has now almost entirely automated American product production in China. The workers running the automation are making better wages comparitively than you did. This is the world you wanted and you have it. Now tell us all about how Americans won't work as you actively prevent them from doing so.

On Friday, September 24, 2021 at 6:34:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/24/2021 8:19 PM, pH wrote:
> > On 2021-09-24, John B <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 15:24:17 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> >> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 9:39:49 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
> >>>> On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 8:56:15 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>> On 9/23/2021 10:08 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>> On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 6:03:30 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 9/22/2021 7:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> You get the sort of world you want and deserve. So don't be surprised when you can't afford to buy a gallon of gas.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tom, you've been posting similar dire warnings and threats for years.
> >>>>>>> And yet, here I am, still prosperous, no economic problems at all..
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> How's your neighborhood doing these days?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Dire warnings when gas here is at $5/gal? Yesterday I went to pick up a set of superlight wheels from a man in Alamo, CA. The houses there had to be seen to be believed. I don't think I saw a house under 3,000 sq ft and most probably at least 5,000. Google maps literally ran me around in circles since every road was being resurfaced. But a block away from me the road surface is practically gravel. Literally.
> >>>>> You need to move out of that hellhole.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And it's terminally weird that you complain SO MUCH about how terrible
> >>>>> things are where you live. Yet there you stay!
> >>>>>> Again - this is the world you wish for this country and it is going to explode in your face.
> >>>>> I wish for pretty much the world I live in. (Well, maybe less traffic on
> >>>>> the main roads. Not that it's a big problem.)
> >>>>>> Didn't you just post that people without a degree couldn't be hired?
> >>>>> No, and there's your "memory" problem again!
> >>>>>> Well, 5 major companies have contacted me to work for them now that they've chased the degreed people out of this state. Tesla who hung up on me because I predicted their very problems now want me to work for them.
> >>>>> Sure, Tommy. We've heard such claims for years, along with "Groceries
> >>>>> are SO EXPENSIVE!!" Despite your statements, you remain unhappy and
> >>>>> unemployed.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Let us know when you actually get a job. And please, show proof.
> >>>>>> Why should I work at all?
> >>>>> So you can move out of that hellhole.
> >>>> Save your breath. I figure the Haldol will kick-in maybe three hours after PO administration, so look for a fleeting moment of sanity around 11:30 or Noon PST. Maybe during a lucid interval, Tom will solve the ancient riddle of whether wheels hang or stand on their spokes and whether crank tapers should or should not be greased. If he misses the window, he'll be back to zero COVID deaths and the market falling during the Obama administration, job offers directly from Elon Musk, etc., etc. No amount of fact checking or correction will ever matter. You just have to roll him into a nice sunny spot near the window and the potted philodendron and leave him alone. "Bye-bye Uncle Tom, I have to go to work now. I'll see you tomorrow." [Tom] "F**** you! Communists are in my underwear! There is no COVID . . . . I won the Nobel Prize. What did you do!" [grabbing wheels on wheelchair, neck veins popping, looking out the window]. "I'll kick your ass!" [Other patients look over, confused].
> >>>
> >>> Jay, if you can't figure out the statistics from the CDC why don't you just say so? What is it, the Bayne's theorem? This says that the more information you have the more precise answer you can generate. The information we
> >>
> >> Yes Sir! CDC Statistics!
> >> https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/covid19/mortality-overview.ht
> >> Deaths Attributed to COVID-19...
> >> Data as of 9/22/2010
> >> 672,021
> >
> > Since I'm too lazy to go there right now, does the CDC happen to mention
> > which date they use for a starting point?
> >
> > ie: how many months is this or whatever unit.
> > pH in Aptos
> >
> CDC says everything and anything in pursuit of some vague
> policy goals including 'universal acceptance' of the mRNA
> jab. They have not been effective in that pursuit:
>
> https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/what-do-lefty-anti-vaxxers-do-now/620092/
>
> With the result that some large blocs (the loopy left, their
> bizarro doppelgangers the libertarian preppers, younger
> people generally and young black men in particular have
> hardened their resistance. To which the President recently
> doubled down, taking a page from Taliban 2.0, "Submit or die."
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/09/us/politics/biden-mandates-vaccines.html
>
> This will not be persuasive in our culture.
>
> (note citations are not from Daily Stormer or Screwy Louie
> Farrakhan. They're lefty, if not communist, publications
> usually aligned to Mr Biden)

Andrew, there are TWO CDC's - the one that works hard to accurately record the statistics on disease and its effect on our society. And the second one - the political leaders - who present this data in a manner most preferable to their political leaders. The leaders like Fauci have won and I'll finally admit that. No one cares that there aren't any deaths. They want a pandemic so they don't have to work. They want a pandemic so that the Democrats can commit election fraud. Frank actually loves the fact that we are now a third world country. This was the objective of the college system - to cause so much civil unrest and disturbance that they could push socialism upon this country and now they have it. They know that Biden is a sock puppet running nothing. They don't CARE who is running this country. As long as they aren't put in the Army on the front line they are perfectly happy to live in an oligarchy that is invisible. I have finally given up. After showing people the evidence and them not giving one shit what is going on, it is now actually a safer and more free country in Mexico than here.

On Friday, September 24, 2021 at 8:25:39 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 19:03:51 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> >On 9/24/2021 6:42 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 9/24/2021 7:19 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 13:11:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> It's a concrete example of the rich getting even richer
> >>>> at the expense
> >>>> of the middle and lower classes. But any proposal to
> >>>> raise taxes on the
> >>>> rich gets painted as "punishing hard work" or other
> >>>> nonsense.
> >>>
> >>> Frank, the "rich" always get richer at the expense of the
> >>> lower
> >>> classes, how can it be any different? And lets be honest,
> >>> your "job"
> >>> wasn't to educate some poor, improvised, layabout, it was
> >>> to educate
> >>> those who could afford to pay your price. and, as you have
> >>> told us,
> >>> you are pretty well off these days.
> >>
> >> I am pretty well off. But I don't believe the rich must
> >> always get richer at the expense of the lower classes - at
> >> least, not to the degree it happens in this country.
> >>
> >> America is a land of extreme income disparity, and even more
> >> extreme wealth disparity. Those disparities are far larger
> >> than in many prosperous European and Asian countries.
> >>
> >> I don't see that situation as being good for the nation, or
> >> for society. We've already seen disastrous effects of
> >> disenfranchized folks voting for a shyster celebrity who
> >> pretended that he would single-handedly fix their problems.
> >> ("Those jobs are all coming back! Don't sell your houses!")
> >>
> >> There are historical examples of similar situations
> >> triggering revolutions, resulting in much bloodshed and
> >> misery but ultimately no real improvement. We don't need that.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >This country does not in fact display 'income disparity'
> >whatever that means beyond nornmal human diversity. The
> >institutional and regulatory disincentives to hire/work are
> >more than offset by massive transfer payments which are not
> >included in the breathless reports of 'inequality'.
> >
> >You might say that's a ridiculous inefficient and unfair
> >setup for the taxpayer, as I do, but here we are.
> I read that the federal budget proposal for fiscal year (FY) 2022, is
> $6.011 trillion. Of this it is estimated that $4.018 trillion is
> Mandatory spending. This category includes entitlement programs such
> as Social Security, Medicare, and unemployment compensation. It also
> includes welfare programs such as Medicaid.
>
> It appears that 66.8% of the budget is paid to the poor, downtrodden,
> impoverished, multitudes (:-(
> https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-federal-budget-breakdown-3305789

As is usual, John, you have no idea what is going on around you. What do you think is going to happen to you after the US Dollar is no longer the preferred currency? What do you think your Air Force retirement pay is going to be worth? You have spend just about every minute on this group arguing against your own good and you're on the very edge of achieving it. So when it costs more to buy food in Thailand with American dollars than it would here remember that.

You know nothing about economic and the theory of money but you will argue all day that you are the brightest bulb on the tree. Fine - but that filament is about to burn out.

On Saturday, September 25, 2021 at 7:23:30 AM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
<big snip>

> Andrew, there are TWO CDC's - the one that works hard to accurately record the statistics on disease and its effect on our society. And the second one - the political leaders - who present this data in a manner most preferable to their political leaders. The leaders like Fauci have won and I'll finally admit that. No one cares that there aren't any deaths. They want a pandemic so they don't have to work. They want a pandemic so that the Democrats can commit election fraud. Frank actually loves the fact that we are now a third world country. This was the objective of the college system - to cause so much civil unrest and disturbance that they could push socialism upon this country and now they have it. They know that Biden is a sock puppet running nothing. They don't CARE who is running this country. As long as they aren't put in the Army on the front line they are perfectly happy to live in an oligarchy that is invisible. I have finally given up. After showing people the evidence and them not giving one shit what is going on, it is now actually a safer and more free country in Mexico than here.

"No one cares that there aren't any deaths." So there are no deaths due to COVID-19? Not one? And the pandemic exists simply because nobody wants to work? And college is a communist conspiracy? Socialism is being pushed on the country, yet we are content with an invisible oligarchy? Have you ever considered that people don't listen to you because you are crazy? You should cash in on your socialist Coverage D and get some better meds from the oppressor Big Pharma. Maybe some Soma.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 9/24/2021 10:20 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 19:36:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 9/24/2021 2:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 9/24/2021 12:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 9/23/2021 8:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 11:30:19 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 9/22/2021 11:47 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 18:38:27 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Increases in productivity - especially modern ones -
>>>>>>>> have led to huge
>>>>>>>> compensation increases and bonuses for top executives,
>>>>>>>> but wages of
>>>>>>>> ordinary workers have not risen in parallel. In fact,
>>>>>>>> when productivity
>>>>>>>> rises ordinary workers may suffer layoffs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lee Iacocca basically kept Chrysler from going bankrupt
>>>>>>> saving the
>>>>>>> jobs of, probably, 15,000, or maybe more people. Doesn't
>>>>>>> he deserve a
>>>>>>> big raise?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John, I think the general run of things has been like this:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "CEO Jack made some executive decisions that probably
>>>>>> prevented stock
>>>>>> prices dropping 10%. He deserves a million dollar bonus
>>>>>> for doing his job!"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> versus
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Maintenance supervisor Joe noticed a stamping press
>>>>>> bearing nearing
>>>>>> failure and got it speedily repaired. That prevented the
>>>>>> entire
>>>>>> production line shutting down, which would probably have
>>>>>> dropped stock
>>>>>> prices 10%. But he was just doing his job."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Top executives' salaries have skyrocketed in recent
>>>>>> decades, to obscene
>>>>>> levels. Ordinary workers' salaries have stagnated, if
>>>>>> indeed their jobs
>>>>>> haven't been shipped offshore.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think it's time to hire cheap CEOs (and university
>>>>>> presidents) from
>>>>>> India. Why can't those jobs be done remotely?
>>>>>
>>>>> You over simplify things.
>>>>>
>>>>> First case... Manager prevented stock prices from dropping
>>>>> 10%.
>>>>> Doesn't sound like much, but what did this do to the
>>>>> corporation's
>>>>> over all financial standing? Would banks be less inclined
>>>>> to finance
>>>>> the company when shares prices dropped? Ask Andrew whether
>>>>> it is
>>>>> easier for a company to borrow money when it is doing
>>>>> "very well,
>>>>> thank you", or when "we are still keeping our head above
>>>>> water".
>>>>>
>>>>>   As for jobs migrating overseas? And I'm sure that
>>>>> corporate managers
>>>>> are even getting raises for doing so. I read, for example,
>>>>> that
>>>>> Amazon, in the U.S., pays $15/hour. Minimum salary in
>>>>> Thailand is 300
>>>>> baht a day, about $1.14/hour at current exchange rates.
>>>>>
>>>>> Amazon employs some 1 million people in the U.S. so
>>>>> average daily
>>>>> wages is something like $120,000,000 in the U.S. A move to
>>>>> Thailand
>>>>> would result in a decrease in daily wages to $9,120,000, a
>>>>> savings of
>>>>> $110,880,000.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tell me, wouldn't a reduction in corporate costs of
>>>>> $110,880,000 a day
>>>>> be worth a very substantial bonus to management.
>>>>
>>>> I have no doubt that offshoring jobs can raise corporate
>>>> profits, and generate bonuses for top executives. But the
>>>> other effect is the impoverishing of workers lower on the
>>>> organization chart.
>>>>
>>>> And that's not merely the bottom of the chart. A former huge
>>>> employer of engineers, technicians, administrators etc. in
>>>> our area is gone due to that process, causing much economic
>>>> harm to everyone who was not at the very top. Even retirees
>>>> who thought their pensions were secure took a major, major hit.
>>>>
>>>> It's a concrete example of the rich getting even richer at
>>>> the expense of the middle and lower classes. But any
>>>> proposal to raise taxes on the rich gets painted as
>>>> "punishing hard work" or other nonsense.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> All that's true but there's both pull and push.
>>>
>>> The other side of the equation is draconian punishment by EPA and all
>>> the other departments bureaus and agencies, Fed & State) of anyone who
>>> makes anything and in particular anyone who employs anyone. At some
>>> point a rational man says no and walks away. As evidenced.
>>>
>>> Tax treatment is another area. I will never understand how 'race to the
>>> bottom' is pejorative!  WTF? It's as if some engineer were despairing,
>>> 'We just can't further reduce the efficiency of this process'. 'Race to
>>> the bottom' sounds like an honorable quest to me, like less disease,
>>> slower corrosion, less waste etc.
>>
>> I have no doubt that there are plenty of over-burdensome regulations;
>> but I also have no doubt there are those who will push, lobby and bribe
>> to get rid of clearly beneficial regulations.
>>
>> The local river is a case in point. It was lined with steel mills for
>> many decades and was a horrid chemical mess, quite devoid of life. The
>> steel mills almost all went away in the late 1970s, and only now, 40
>> years later, is the river becoming acceptably clean. However, kayakers
>> are still warned not to actually stand on the bottom in many places,
>> because one's feet can sink down to the deep layer of grease that still
>> remains under the bottom's silt. (And BTW, a wealthy owner of a small
>> company was convicted just a few years ago of having his employee dump
>> waste oil into the river.)
>>
>> But "race to the bottom" has never, AFAIK, referred to highest
>> efficiency or lowest waste of energy or material, etc. IME it's most
>> often used to refer to the fact that companies move operations to
>> locations where salaries and benefits are lowest. The large local tech
>> company I referred to earlier sent most of its production and even
>> design to Mexico. (I knew engineers who were forced to teach Mexican
>> engineers their design skills.)
>>
>> For some companies, Mexican labor is too expensive, so jobs are shifted
>> to even cheaper labor markets. In effect, American workers are asked to
>> compete against near slave wages in other countries. That's the bottom,
>> and it's not a good place for an American to be.
>
> I'm being a bit "picky" I know but I really can't agree with your
> "near slave wages". How would you quantify that?
>
The internet claims the minimum wage in Thailand is about $11 per day.
If that's for 8 hours, it's less than $1.40 per hour. Americans can't
begin to survive on that, but those numbers and ones like them are what
Americans must compete against.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, September 25, 2021 at 4:23:30 PM UTC+2, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, September 24, 2021 at 6:34:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 9/24/2021 8:19 PM, pH wrote:
> > > On 2021-09-24, John B <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 15:24:17 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> > >> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 9:39:49 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
> > >>>> On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 8:56:15 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>>>> On 9/23/2021 10:08 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>>>>> On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 6:03:30 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>>>>>> On 9/22/2021 7:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> You get the sort of world you want and deserve. So don't be surprised when you can't afford to buy a gallon of gas.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Tom, you've been posting similar dire warnings and threats for years.
> > >>>>>>> And yet, here I am, still prosperous, no economic problems at all.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> How's your neighborhood doing these days?
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Dire warnings when gas here is at $5/gal? Yesterday I went to pick up a set of superlight wheels from a man in Alamo, CA. The houses there had to be seen to be believed. I don't think I saw a house under 3,000 sq ft and most probably at least 5,000. Google maps literally ran me around in circles since every road was being resurfaced. But a block away from me the road surface is practically gravel. Literally.
> > >>>>> You need to move out of that hellhole.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> And it's terminally weird that you complain SO MUCH about how terrible
> > >>>>> things are where you live. Yet there you stay!
> > >>>>>> Again - this is the world you wish for this country and it is going to explode in your face.
> > >>>>> I wish for pretty much the world I live in. (Well, maybe less traffic on
> > >>>>> the main roads. Not that it's a big problem.)
> > >>>>>> Didn't you just post that people without a degree couldn't be hired?
> > >>>>> No, and there's your "memory" problem again!
> > >>>>>> Well, 5 major companies have contacted me to work for them now that they've chased the degreed people out of this state. Tesla who hung up on me because I predicted their very problems now want me to work for them.
> > >>>>> Sure, Tommy. We've heard such claims for years, along with "Groceries
> > >>>>> are SO EXPENSIVE!!" Despite your statements, you remain unhappy and
> > >>>>> unemployed.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Let us know when you actually get a job. And please, show proof.
> > >>>>>> Why should I work at all?
> > >>>>> So you can move out of that hellhole.
> > >>>> Save your breath. I figure the Haldol will kick-in maybe three hours after PO administration, so look for a fleeting moment of sanity around 11:30 or Noon PST. Maybe during a lucid interval, Tom will solve the ancient riddle of whether wheels hang or stand on their spokes and whether crank tapers should or should not be greased. If he misses the window, he'll be back to zero COVID deaths and the market falling during the Obama administration, job offers directly from Elon Musk, etc., etc. No amount of fact checking or correction will ever matter. You just have to roll him into a nice sunny spot near the window and the potted philodendron and leave him alone. "Bye-bye Uncle Tom, I have to go to work now. I'll see you tomorrow." [Tom] "F**** you! Communists are in my underwear! There is no COVID . . . . I won the Nobel Prize. What did you do!" [grabbing wheels on wheelchair, neck veins popping, looking out the window]. "I'll kick your ass!" [Other patients look over, confused].
> > >>>
> > >>> Jay, if you can't figure out the statistics from the CDC why don't you just say so? What is it, the Bayne's theorem? This says that the more information you have the more precise answer you can generate. The information we
> > >>
> > >> Yes Sir! CDC Statistics!
> > >> https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/covid19/mortality-overview.ht
> > >> Deaths Attributed to COVID-19...
> > >> Data as of 9/22/2010
> > >> 672,021
> > >
> > > Since I'm too lazy to go there right now, does the CDC happen to mention
> > > which date they use for a starting point?
> > >
> > > ie: how many months is this or whatever unit.
> > > pH in Aptos
> > >
> > CDC says everything and anything in pursuit of some vague
> > policy goals including 'universal acceptance' of the mRNA
> > jab. They have not been effective in that pursuit:
> >
> > https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/what-do-lefty-anti-vaxxers-do-now/620092/
> >
> > With the result that some large blocs (the loopy left, their
> > bizarro doppelgangers the libertarian preppers, younger
> > people generally and young black men in particular have
> > hardened their resistance. To which the President recently
> > doubled down, taking a page from Taliban 2.0, "Submit or die."
> >
> > https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/09/us/politics/biden-mandates-vaccines.html
> >
> > This will not be persuasive in our culture.
> >
> > (note citations are not from Daily Stormer or Screwy Louie
> > Farrakhan. They're lefty, if not communist, publications
> > usually aligned to Mr Biden)
> Andrew, there are TWO CDC's - the one that works hard to accurately record the statistics on disease and its effect on our society. And the second one - the political leaders - who present this data in a manner most preferable to their political leaders. The leaders like Fauci have won and I'll finally admit that. No one cares that there aren't any deaths. They want a pandemic so they don't have to work. They want a pandemic so that the Democrats can commit election fraud. Frank actually loves the fact that we are now a third world country. This was the objective of the college system - to cause so much civil unrest and disturbance that they could push socialism upon this country and now they have it. They know that Biden is a sock puppet running nothing. They don't CARE who is running this country. As long as they aren't put in the Army on the front line they are perfectly happy to live in an oligarchy that is invisible. I have finally given up. After showing people the evidence and them not giving one shit what is going on, it is now actually a safer and more free country in Mexico than here.

Tom, please stay away from the internet for a couple of weeks and ride your bike in silence, it is better for all of us.

Lou

On 9/24/2021 10:55 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 19:42:49 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 9/24/2021 7:19 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 13:11:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's a concrete example of the rich getting even richer at the expense
>>>> of the middle and lower classes. But any proposal to raise taxes on the
>>>> rich gets painted as "punishing hard work" or other nonsense.
>>>
>>> Frank, the "rich" always get richer at the expense of the lower
>>> classes, how can it be any different? And lets be honest, your "job"
>>> wasn't to educate some poor, improvised, layabout, it was to educate
>>> those who could afford to pay your price. and, as you have told us,
>>> you are pretty well off these days.
>>
>> I am pretty well off. But I don't believe the rich must always get
>> richer at the expense of the lower classes - at least, not to the degree
>> it happens in this country.
>>
>> America is a land of extreme income disparity, and even more extreme
>> wealth disparity. Those disparities are far larger than in many
>> prosperous European and Asian countries.
>>
>> I don't see that situation as being good for the nation, or for society.
>> We've already seen disastrous effects of disenfranchized folks voting
>> for a shyster celebrity who pretended that he would single-handedly fix
>> their problems. ("Those jobs are all coming back! Don't sell your houses!")
>>
>> There are historical examples of similar situations triggering
>> revolutions, resulting in much bloodshed and misery but ultimately no
>> real improvement. We don't need that.
>
> I recently looked up "rich folks" on the Web and it seems that
> something like 64% of them are rich because of their own efforts. And,
> I read, that Only 21% of millionaires received any inheritance at all.
> So... is it justifiable to effectively penalize these "get up and go"
> people because the multitudes don't have the push to get ahead?

Sorry, I don't buy the "penalize"characteristic about having the wealthy
pay more taxes.

Civilization costs money. As I said, if a certain amount of money is
required, it makes much more sense to get it from those who have an
excess than from those who have little.

Yes, I've seen the data showing the wealthy pay more. The question is,
do they pay _enough_ more. If they are building immense mansions along
roads the county can't afford to properly pave, I'd say they aren't
paying enough.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 9/25/2021 1:06 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/24/2021 10:55 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 19:42:49 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/24/2021 7:19 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 13:11:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a concrete example of the rich getting even richer
>>>>> at the expense
>>>>> of the middle and lower classes. But any proposal to
>>>>> raise taxes on the
>>>>> rich gets painted as "punishing hard work" or other
>>>>> nonsense.
>>>>
>>>> Frank, the "rich" always get richer at the expense of
>>>> the lower
>>>> classes, how can it be any different? And lets be
>>>> honest, your "job"
>>>> wasn't to educate some poor, improvised, layabout, it
>>>> was to educate
>>>> those who could afford to pay your price. and, as you
>>>> have told us,
>>>> you are pretty well off these days.
>>>
>>> I am pretty well off. But I don't believe the rich must
>>> always get
>>> richer at the expense of the lower classes - at least,
>>> not to the degree
>>> it happens in this country.
>>>
>>> America is a land of extreme income disparity, and even
>>> more extreme
>>> wealth disparity. Those disparities are far larger than
>>> in many
>>> prosperous European and Asian countries.
>>>
>>> I don't see that situation as being good for the nation,
>>> or for society.
>>> We've already seen disastrous effects of disenfranchized
>>> folks voting
>>> for a shyster celebrity who pretended that he would
>>> single-handedly fix
>>> their problems. ("Those jobs are all coming back! Don't
>>> sell your houses!")
>>>
>>> There are historical examples of similar situations
>>> triggering
>>> revolutions, resulting in much bloodshed and misery but
>>> ultimately no
>>> real improvement. We don't need that.
>>
>> I recently looked up "rich folks" on the Web and it seems
>> that
>> something like 64% of them are rich because of their own
>> efforts. And,
>> I read, that Only 21% of millionaires received any
>> inheritance at all.
>> So... is it justifiable to effectively penalize these "get
>> up and go"
>> people because the multitudes don't have the push to get
>> ahead?
>
> Sorry, I don't buy the "penalize"characteristic about having
> the wealthy pay more taxes.
>
> Civilization costs money. As I said, if a certain amount of
> money is required, it makes much more sense to get it from
> those who have an excess than from those who have little.
>
> Yes, I've seen the data showing the wealthy pay more. The
> question is, do they pay _enough_ more. If they are building
> immense mansions along roads the county can't afford to
> properly pave, I'd say they aren't paying enough.
>

For USA the top 10% of earners pay half the income tax.

What is enough for you?
Couldn't you say 'Our system is highly tilted against those
who work and invest' and call it a victory?

Before the dread 16th Amendment, the Framers' original
document allowed for excises, tariffs and per capita taxes.
Per capita, that is, each man paying the same amount, being
the perfect embodiment of 'fair'.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Saturday, September 25, 2021 at 9:39:59 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
> On Saturday, September 25, 2021 at 7:23:30 AM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> <big snip>
> > Andrew, there are TWO CDC's - the one that works hard to accurately record the statistics on disease and its effect on our society. And the second one - the political leaders - who present this data in a manner most preferable to their political leaders. The leaders like Fauci have won and I'll finally admit that. No one cares that there aren't any deaths. They want a pandemic so they don't have to work. They want a pandemic so that the Democrats can commit election fraud. Frank actually loves the fact that we are now a third world country. This was the objective of the college system - to cause so much civil unrest and disturbance that they could push socialism upon this country and now they have it. They know that Biden is a sock puppet running nothing. They don't CARE who is running this country. As long as they aren't put in the Army on the front line they are perfectly happy to live in an oligarchy that is invisible. I have finally given up. After showing people the evidence and them not giving one shit what is going on, it is now actually a safer and more free country in Mexico than here.
> "No one cares that there aren't any deaths." So there are no deaths due to COVID-19? Not one? And the pandemic exists simply because nobody wants to work? And college is a communist conspiracy? Socialism is being pushed on the country, yet we are content with an invisible oligarchy? Have you ever considered that people don't listen to you because you are crazy? You should cash in on your socialist Coverage D and get some better meds from the oppressor Big Pharma. Maybe some Soma.

Jay, you can't help yourself can you? I said that there was about 2,000 extra respiratory deaths. That is actually less than a normal flu season. And quite a difference from your insistence that more than 600,000 people were killed. You don't give one damn that you are being lied to and you are happy to pass those lies on. That is what your oath is worth - nothing whatsoever.

On Saturday, September 25, 2021 at 11:06:06 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/24/2021 10:55 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 19:42:49 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On 9/24/2021 7:19 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 13:11:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> It's a concrete example of the rich getting even richer at the expense
> >>>> of the middle and lower classes. But any proposal to raise taxes on the
> >>>> rich gets painted as "punishing hard work" or other nonsense.
> >>>
> >>> Frank, the "rich" always get richer at the expense of the lower
> >>> classes, how can it be any different? And lets be honest, your "job"
> >>> wasn't to educate some poor, improvised, layabout, it was to educate
> >>> those who could afford to pay your price. and, as you have told us,
> >>> you are pretty well off these days.
> >>
> >> I am pretty well off. But I don't believe the rich must always get
> >> richer at the expense of the lower classes - at least, not to the degree
> >> it happens in this country.
> >>
> >> America is a land of extreme income disparity, and even more extreme
> >> wealth disparity. Those disparities are far larger than in many
> >> prosperous European and Asian countries.
> >>
> >> I don't see that situation as being good for the nation, or for society.
> >> We've already seen disastrous effects of disenfranchized folks voting
> >> for a shyster celebrity who pretended that he would single-handedly fix
> >> their problems. ("Those jobs are all coming back! Don't sell your houses!")
> >>
> >> There are historical examples of similar situations triggering
> >> revolutions, resulting in much bloodshed and misery but ultimately no
> >> real improvement. We don't need that.
> >
> > I recently looked up "rich folks" on the Web and it seems that
> > something like 64% of them are rich because of their own efforts. And,
> > I read, that Only 21% of millionaires received any inheritance at all.
> > So... is it justifiable to effectively penalize these "get up and go"
> > people because the multitudes don't have the push to get ahead?
> Sorry, I don't buy the "penalize"characteristic about having the wealthy
> pay more taxes.
>
> Civilization costs money. As I said, if a certain amount of money is
> required, it makes much more sense to get it from those who have an
> excess than from those who have little.
>
> Yes, I've seen the data showing the wealthy pay more. The question is,
> do they pay _enough_ more. If they are building immense mansions along
> roads the county can't afford to properly pave, I'd say they aren't
> paying enough.

Well, why would you not question Biden printing money? After all - inflation is the poor man's tax. Why would you question whether someone else pays enough while not saying YOU'RE paying too much because of inflation? You're a bum and with luck, your teacher's union invested heavily in this Chinese Bond fund that is about to go bankrupt and remove a large part of your retirement pay.

On Saturday, September 25, 2021 at 12:33:27 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/25/2021 1:06 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 9/24/2021 10:55 PM, John B. wrote:
> >> On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 19:42:49 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 9/24/2021 7:19 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>> On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 13:11:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It's a concrete example of the rich getting even richer
> >>>>> at the expense
> >>>>> of the middle and lower classes. But any proposal to
> >>>>> raise taxes on the
> >>>>> rich gets painted as "punishing hard work" or other
> >>>>> nonsense.
> >>>>
> >>>> Frank, the "rich" always get richer at the expense of
> >>>> the lower
> >>>> classes, how can it be any different? And lets be
> >>>> honest, your "job"
> >>>> wasn't to educate some poor, improvised, layabout, it
> >>>> was to educate
> >>>> those who could afford to pay your price. and, as you
> >>>> have told us,
> >>>> you are pretty well off these days.
> >>>
> >>> I am pretty well off. But I don't believe the rich must
> >>> always get
> >>> richer at the expense of the lower classes - at least,
> >>> not to the degree
> >>> it happens in this country.
> >>>
> >>> America is a land of extreme income disparity, and even
> >>> more extreme
> >>> wealth disparity. Those disparities are far larger than
> >>> in many
> >>> prosperous European and Asian countries.
> >>>
> >>> I don't see that situation as being good for the nation,
> >>> or for society.
> >>> We've already seen disastrous effects of disenfranchized
> >>> folks voting
> >>> for a shyster celebrity who pretended that he would
> >>> single-handedly fix
> >>> their problems. ("Those jobs are all coming back! Don't
> >>> sell your houses!")
> >>>
> >>> There are historical examples of similar situations
> >>> triggering
> >>> revolutions, resulting in much bloodshed and misery but
> >>> ultimately no
> >>> real improvement. We don't need that.
> >>
> >> I recently looked up "rich folks" on the Web and it seems
> >> that
> >> something like 64% of them are rich because of their own
> >> efforts. And,
> >> I read, that Only 21% of millionaires received any
> >> inheritance at all.
> >> So... is it justifiable to effectively penalize these "get
> >> up and go"
> >> people because the multitudes don't have the push to get
> >> ahead?
> >
> > Sorry, I don't buy the "penalize"characteristic about having
> > the wealthy pay more taxes.
> >
> > Civilization costs money. As I said, if a certain amount of
> > money is required, it makes much more sense to get it from
> > those who have an excess than from those who have little.
> >
> > Yes, I've seen the data showing the wealthy pay more. The
> > question is, do they pay _enough_ more. If they are building
> > immense mansions along roads the county can't afford to
> > properly pave, I'd say they aren't paying enough.
> >
> For USA the top 10% of earners pay half the income tax.
>
> What is enough for you?
> Couldn't you say 'Our system is highly tilted against those
> who work and invest' and call it a victory?
>
> Before the dread 16th Amendment, the Framers' original
> document allowed for excises, tariffs and per capita taxes.
> Per capita, that is, each man paying the same amount, being
> the perfect embodiment of 'fair'.

I think that like a two income family of manual laborers that make more than the minimum amount that marks the TOP 10% income earners, that Frank should be forced to pay exactly the same as them - let's have Frank paying 56% of his income as well as a waitress and a truck driver. Give FRANK equal rating with the people he wants to pay more.

On Sat, 25 Sep 2021 14:00:21 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 9/24/2021 10:20 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 19:36:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/24/2021 2:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 9/24/2021 12:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 9/23/2021 8:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 11:30:19 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 9/22/2021 11:47 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 18:38:27 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Increases in productivity - especially modern ones -
>>>>>>>>> have led to huge
>>>>>>>>> compensation increases and bonuses for top executives,
>>>>>>>>> but wages of
>>>>>>>>> ordinary workers have not risen in parallel. In fact,
>>>>>>>>> when productivity
>>>>>>>>> rises ordinary workers may suffer layoffs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lee Iacocca basically kept Chrysler from going bankrupt
>>>>>>>> saving the
>>>>>>>> jobs of, probably, 15,000, or maybe more people. Doesn't
>>>>>>>> he deserve a
>>>>>>>> big raise?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John, I think the general run of things has been like this:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "CEO Jack made some executive decisions that probably
>>>>>>> prevented stock
>>>>>>> prices dropping 10%. He deserves a million dollar bonus
>>>>>>> for doing his job!"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> versus
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Maintenance supervisor Joe noticed a stamping press
>>>>>>> bearing nearing
>>>>>>> failure and got it speedily repaired. That prevented the
>>>>>>> entire
>>>>>>> production line shutting down, which would probably have
>>>>>>> dropped stock
>>>>>>> prices 10%. But he was just doing his job."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Top executives' salaries have skyrocketed in recent
>>>>>>> decades, to obscene
>>>>>>> levels. Ordinary workers' salaries have stagnated, if
>>>>>>> indeed their jobs
>>>>>>> haven't been shipped offshore.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think it's time to hire cheap CEOs (and university
>>>>>>> presidents) from
>>>>>>> India. Why can't those jobs be done remotely?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You over simplify things.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First case... Manager prevented stock prices from dropping
>>>>>> 10%.
>>>>>> Doesn't sound like much, but what did this do to the
>>>>>> corporation's
>>>>>> over all financial standing? Would banks be less inclined
>>>>>> to finance
>>>>>> the company when shares prices dropped? Ask Andrew whether
>>>>>> it is
>>>>>> easier for a company to borrow money when it is doing
>>>>>> "very well,
>>>>>> thank you", or when "we are still keeping our head above
>>>>>> water".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   As for jobs migrating overseas? And I'm sure that
>>>>>> corporate managers
>>>>>> are even getting raises for doing so. I read, for example,
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> Amazon, in the U.S., pays $15/hour. Minimum salary in
>>>>>> Thailand is 300
>>>>>> baht a day, about $1.14/hour at current exchange rates.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Amazon employs some 1 million people in the U.S. so
>>>>>> average daily
>>>>>> wages is something like $120,000,000 in the U.S. A move to
>>>>>> Thailand
>>>>>> would result in a decrease in daily wages to $9,120,000, a
>>>>>> savings of
>>>>>> $110,880,000.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tell me, wouldn't a reduction in corporate costs of
>>>>>> $110,880,000 a day
>>>>>> be worth a very substantial bonus to management.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have no doubt that offshoring jobs can raise corporate
>>>>> profits, and generate bonuses for top executives. But the
>>>>> other effect is the impoverishing of workers lower on the
>>>>> organization chart.
>>>>>
>>>>> And that's not merely the bottom of the chart. A former huge
>>>>> employer of engineers, technicians, administrators etc. in
>>>>> our area is gone due to that process, causing much economic
>>>>> harm to everyone who was not at the very top. Even retirees
>>>>> who thought their pensions were secure took a major, major hit.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a concrete example of the rich getting even richer at
>>>>> the expense of the middle and lower classes. But any
>>>>> proposal to raise taxes on the rich gets painted as
>>>>> "punishing hard work" or other nonsense.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> All that's true but there's both pull and push.
>>>>
>>>> The other side of the equation is draconian punishment by EPA and all
>>>> the other departments bureaus and agencies, Fed & State) of anyone who
>>>> makes anything and in particular anyone who employs anyone. At some
>>>> point a rational man says no and walks away. As evidenced.
>>>>
>>>> Tax treatment is another area. I will never understand how 'race to the
>>>> bottom' is pejorative!  WTF? It's as if some engineer were despairing,
>>>> 'We just can't further reduce the efficiency of this process'. 'Race to
>>>> the bottom' sounds like an honorable quest to me, like less disease,
>>>> slower corrosion, less waste etc.
>>>
>>> I have no doubt that there are plenty of over-burdensome regulations;
>>> but I also have no doubt there are those who will push, lobby and bribe
>>> to get rid of clearly beneficial regulations.
>>>
>>> The local river is a case in point. It was lined with steel mills for
>>> many decades and was a horrid chemical mess, quite devoid of life. The
>>> steel mills almost all went away in the late 1970s, and only now, 40
>>> years later, is the river becoming acceptably clean. However, kayakers
>>> are still warned not to actually stand on the bottom in many places,
>>> because one's feet can sink down to the deep layer of grease that still
>>> remains under the bottom's silt. (And BTW, a wealthy owner of a small
>>> company was convicted just a few years ago of having his employee dump
>>> waste oil into the river.)
>>>
>>> But "race to the bottom" has never, AFAIK, referred to highest
>>> efficiency or lowest waste of energy or material, etc. IME it's most
>>> often used to refer to the fact that companies move operations to
>>> locations where salaries and benefits are lowest. The large local tech
>>> company I referred to earlier sent most of its production and even
>>> design to Mexico. (I knew engineers who were forced to teach Mexican
>>> engineers their design skills.)
>>>
>>> For some companies, Mexican labor is too expensive, so jobs are shifted
>>> to even cheaper labor markets. In effect, American workers are asked to
>>> compete against near slave wages in other countries. That's the bottom,
>>> and it's not a good place for an American to be.
>>
>> I'm being a bit "picky" I know but I really can't agree with your
>> "near slave wages". How would you quantify that?
>>
>The internet claims the minimum wage in Thailand is about $11 per day.
>If that's for 8 hours, it's less than $1.40 per hour. Americans can't
>begin to survive on that, but those numbers and ones like them are what
>Americans must compete against.

On Sat, 25 Sep 2021 06:55:48 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, September 24, 2021 at 4:35:14 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 11:33:44 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> >I expect nothing from these children. Their entire lives are disagreeing with anyone that actually knows what they are speaking of. I spent my entire life from childhood learning science and what makes the world work, These tiddly-winks want to think that they can know about it by reading an article on the Internet that takes them 3 minutes and in which they become bored.
>> My goodness! "entire life from childhood learning science and what
>> makes the world work" Yes Sir!
>>
>> But Tommy you have told us that (1) you weren't intelligent enough to
>> even be able to graduate from high school, and (2) you've told us
>> about atom bombs that could "sink" an island and as proof showed us
>> the results of a meteor strike, and (3) you've told us all about
>> making all those complex scientific machines and as proof have
>> demonstrated, repeatedly, that you can't even assemble a bicycle
>> without help from Jay.
>>
>> I can only comment that Science in America must be at a very low
>> level.
>
>John, where did you get any idea what science is? You would have a
very hard time explaining where and how you get water pressure and you
worked on these sorts of construction projects? You are no doubt the
normal staggering vet drunk that isn't in the USA because he would be
a homeless drug addict. In Thailand you can be a drug addict with a
home.

Tommy Boy, you were the one that brought up "science". I mealy defined
your apparent lack there of.

As for water pressure, that's easy. Jack and Jill went up the hill to
get a pail of water.... and poured it down a pipe to their parent's
house in the town. Presto! Chango! Water pressure!

As for a staggering drunk, I haven't had a drink of an alcoholic
beverage for, probably 40 years, and as for a drug addiction? No
Tommy, I don't even smoke tobacco cigarettes.

As an aside the U.S. has the greatest prevalence of opiates use in the
world, some 1.04 (annual prevalence). Well, except for 6 other
countries, while Thailand is number 61 on the list with 0.20%
--
Cheers,

John B.