On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 6:24:28 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 10/12/2021 12:05 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 8:32:31 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 10/11/2021 8:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> >>> On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 3:56:50 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> You are probably unusual to a degree because of your unusual connections
> >>>> to the industry. (One famous bike industry guy phones me on my birthday
> >>>> but he doesn't give me stuff. Of course he doesn't own the company any
> >>>> more...)
> >>>>
> >>>> But when you buy your front derailleur, what brands do you search for?
> >>>> Based on what you've said here, you favor Ultegra. Did you even
> >>>> consider, say, the largely unadvertised Ultrashift?
> >>>
> >>> You mean Microshift?
> >> Yes, sorry, I did mean Microshift. Oddly, I don't keep brand names
> >> foremost in my memory. Who could have guessed?
> >>> I had a Microshift RD, and it was O.K. Buying the Microshift Centos FD was a $6 savings over a Shimano 105 that matches the rest of my commuter-bike group. It's worth the $6 to me to get branded stuff.
> >> I think that last sentence belies a lot of your previous arguments.
> >
> > Why? The branded stuff comes with usable warranties, dealer networks, direct contacts (my son contacts at Shimano and not Microshift) -- R&D and a track record.
> ??? And you feel you need all that for a front derailleur? Wow.

Yes, if I wanted a POS FD, I'd keep the one I have. You're arguing with me over $6.
>
> I can remember only one failed front derailleur, which I replaced for a
> friend of mine. Her 1970-something SunTour FD broke its return spring.
> This may sound weird, but we did not check the warranty, contact the
> ghost of SunTour, track down an official dealer. I just put a different
> derailleur on.
>
> (OK, full disclosure: She first had her usual bike shop do it. They
> installed a Shimano FD with an adapter shim to fit her unfashionably
> small seat tube. But it wouldn't reliably shift into her granny. I
> procured a NOS SunTour unit and put that on for her.)
> > All the things you see as some sort of sinister plot are actually a plus for the ordinary consumer -- as proved by all of Tom's odd-ball non-recourse China purchases. And why is it a problem to have equipment that matches?
> Why do you care? Does Portland stage a Concourse d'Elegance for commuter
> bikes?

No, but you know it will work if it is all part of the same product group, e.g. R7000 series. The components in a series are designed to work well together. Why would I want a Chinese off-brand when, for a mere $6, I can be sure the product will work and work really well? The finish is better, too. My Microshift 9sp RD was pretty rough. It's six f****** dollars. I'm buying the better product.

> >> About "how civilians buy bikes," (or components, accessories, etc.) your
> >> position has been that most people don't let advertising influence them.
> >> It's frankly ludicrous to think _we_ need to do market research on that
> >> point. Any American consumer products company above the level of a craft
> >> show booth employs advertising, because it works and everyone knows it..
> >> Some ads and advertising techniques became so influential they're now
> >> cultural memes.
> >>
> >> Again, you may be different, at least to a degree. Our little
> >> self-selected discussion group is surely different in many ways than
> >> than the population of typical American bike buyers. But I very much
> >> doubt that you're immune to advertising.
> >
> > We're talking about bikes -- not shoes and sweat-shirts.
> Nice try, but that's not true. Anyone can read upthread to see.
> > What advertising is even seen by the average bicycle consumer?
> Please, Jay. You keep trying to pretend bike-related advertising doesn't
> exist. That's just silly.

I'm serious. Direct me to any bicycle advertising in publications of general circulation. Have you ever seen a T.V. commercial for a bike? I haven't. Do people even buy magazines anymore? Go to your browser and type in "what bicycle should I buy?" It's not very enlightening. As Dr. Science, you should be more specific and identify particular advertisements that you think are coercing purchasers.

> >> My bikes are very well suited for their uses. I see no need to change
> >> just because something new is on the market. And there certainly have
> >> been benefits. Heck, I was able to completely skip the mania about close
> >> clearance frames. And I probably saved many hundreds of dollars by not
> >> following the fashion-of-the-day for bottom brackets.
> >
> > It's great you skipped ISIS and Octalink. I was buying those things because I broke cranks and not because I was impulse buying cranks or bikes.
> >
> > "Close clearance frames" were a thing starting in the mid to late '70s, and you skipped it only because you didn't buy a racing bike -- and apparently didn't race. They were fine for racing bikes.
> They were fine for bikes used only for racing. And they were bought by
> millions of riders who never raced, because they were the bikes that
> were deemed "best" by the advertising industry and other influencers.

O.K., what influencers and what advertisements? Short-reach brakes were basically foisted upon consumers looking for a sport bike, although I got my wife a Trek 400 way back when, which still had standard reach brakes. She used that as her touring bike. What produced the tight-clearance and short-drop trend, I don't know. Maybe Andrew can shed some light on it.
> >> What you portray as "retro fashion" is a refusal to adopt racing
> >> oriented design choices. But my refusal is based on the simple fact that
> >> I don't race. Also I feel no need to hide my age and increasing slowness
> >> from myself by buying ever lighter, trickier bikes.
> >
> > No, retro fashion is cotton-duck handlebar bags and 1960s cranks. Basically historical reenacting. It's far more affected than just riding an OTC modern sport or gravel bike.
> I'll admit, one of the two handlebar bags I designed and built is made
> of canvas. None of my other handlebar bags are. But none of my bikes
> have 1960s cranks. I guess I'm not retro fashionable after all!

Your ST800 is not fashionable. This is fashionable: https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop/bikes/80th-anniversary-rene-herse-bike-down-payment/ A steal at $14K.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 10/12/2021 8:15 PM, jbeattie wrote:

<snip>

> Your ST800 is not fashionable. This is fashionable: https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop/bikes/80th-anniversary-rene-herse-bike-down-payment/ A steal at $14K.

Nice, but they really need to add the new square chainrings
<https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p4pb15746918/p4pb15746918.jpg>.

jbeattie wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 2:13:03 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
>> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 3:44:01 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:

>>> How did you end up with your Byzantine Utopia Kranich? That must
>>> have been some weird advertising mind control.

>> Easy. I knew what I wanted the bike to do, and I'm not bothered
>> about the opinions of one-size-fits-all lemmings like you. I've
>> never, either before or after I bought one, seen any Utopia-Velo
>> advertising. They spend their marketing budget taking their bikes
>> to shows and letting the public inspect them close up, and on very
>> detailed long-read catalogues. In fact the significant
>> recommendation that swayed my purchase came from RBT: Chalo Colina
>> recommended the Utopia Kranich. I looked into Chalo and found him
>> to have impressive achievements, and then looked into Utopia-Velo
>> and found them to cling stubbornly to a unique vision; I'd earlier
>> looked into the Kranich but rejected it as overpriced and pretty
>> odd, but I decided, on hand of Chalo's recommendation and warming
>> towards the Utopia-Velo design philosophy to try one of their
>> bikes. I haven't regretted the decision a minute since. It's a
>> first class bike, but you do need a fair bit of self-confidence to
>> bring it off.
>>
> Oh, so you're some lemming that follows word-of-mouth advertising?
> Pffff. And all of my bikes fit me and are not some sissy
> sit-up-and-beg mixte frame from the industrial revolution.
> https://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/UtopiaKranich0109/Bottom%20Bracket%20Shell.jpg
> That bike has enough tubing to re-plumb my house. Speaking as a real
> man, I can tell you that real men do not ride those bikes. And as I
> understand it, the bike now has a motor, probably stolen from an
> 1950s Erector Set to match the over-all aesthetic. I imagine it is
> easier riding that bike during the pandemic since you can hide -- at
> least in part -- behind a face mask. And any time you want, I'll
> drag race you on the Vado.
> https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/a26933762/specialized-turbo-vado-reivew/
> Bicycling says it makes my legs look sexy.

Your wife will love her new 12sp Kranich so much she will secretly call
it her Kunich! Just look at the pretty flowers matching!
<https://www.ebay.de/itm/203565052193>

Resistance is futile, Jay! Here is your very manly, zero-mixte dream bike:
<https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/utopia-herrenrad-rohloff-vollgefedert/1873029585-217>

On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 11:08:26 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 2:13:03 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 3:44:01 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 2:16:23 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 9:37:42 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 11:47:47 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > > > On 10/11/2021 1:13 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> > > > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 8:57:08 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > > > >> On 10/10/2021 10:29 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> If some guy or gal spends $10K on bike he or she loves, who cares. I spent $1,600 in inflation adjusted dollars ($250 I think) buying a '69 PX10 when I was a sophomore in high school -- all my own money, and $5K in inflation adjusted dollars for my first custom bike ($1,000) in college, again all my own money. I didn't own a car and loved bikes -- I helped build my frames and put them together at the shop where I basically lived.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> People should buy whatever makes them happy . . .
> > > > > > >> Ah, happiness and enlightenment through consumerism! How modern! How
> > > > > > >> trendy! If only the world's foremost philosophers recognized this answer
> > > > > > >> to the life, the universe and everything!
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Here's the rub: Every hack advertiser spends their career telling people
> > > > > > >> "Buying THIS will make you happy!" And with bikes as with cell phones,
> > > > > > >> it's always the newest and most expensive gimmick that will finally
> > > > > > >> bring true meaning to one's life. Or at least, to one's ride or one's
> > > > > > >> video game. Should we really believe them all?
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I think it's reasonable to ask whether the purported improvement is
> > > > > > >> real, and whether the benefits are greater than the detriments.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> But I realize my thought processes are terribly unfashionable.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > No, your though processes are bizarre -- at least to me and for the dollars in question.
> > > > > > OK, my thought processes are considered bizarre by you and the great
> > > > > > bulk of Americans. Here's a local example:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Our area just got its first new department store in quite a while. Over
> > > > > > 800 people stood in a long line to be among the first to enter. Many
> > > > > > thousands in huge crowds packed the store during its first few days. I
> > > > > > assume they loade up their car trunks with electric egg peelers, compact
> > > > > > TVs for their bathrooms, cell phone cases, knickknacks and tchotchkes to
> > > > > > replace their existing knickknacks and tchotchkes, handheld vacuum
> > > > > > cleaners, bath towels and place mats.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Those people would never understand my question "Why watch TV on the
> > > > > > toilet?" or "How many place mats do you really need?" They'd say the
> > > > > > questions are bizarre. But they won't be any happier the next day.
> > > > > > > Really, who cares if someone buys a bike that makes him or her happy, assuming it doesn't prompt economic ruin or household discord. A super-high end bike is still less than a top-end stereo amplifier or a cheap car -- and lots of other things people buy because it makes them happy. You can spend more on a European vacation. Have you priced a hotel room lately (basically anywhere worth visiting)?
> > > > > > Regarding each person's choice, I don't generally care - although I do
> > > > > > know a few couples whose marriage failed at least in part because of
> > > > > > compulsive spending.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But I might turn the question around: Why is it so offensive to consider
> > > > > > benefits vs. detriments, and to try to quantify benefits?
> > > > > Most people do consider benefits and detriments -- although I imagine their columns look different than yours. To you, it is a benefit to have 40 year old technology. Most modern purchasers who have ridden 40 year old technology disagree.
> > > > > > > You also imagine this entire, evil conspiracy of advertisers coercing people into buying bicycles and equipment. Where is it?
> > > > > > Do you really need to ask? Perhaps "evil" is stretching it, but have you
> > > > > > never seen an issue of _Buycycling_ magazine? "The new saddles you've
> > > > > > GOT to try!!" and "Best lycra for sexy legs!" (OK, not direct quotes,
> > > > > > but not far off. Our library's closed today.)
> > > > > I don't subscribe to Bicycling. In the real world, people usually buy shorts by manufacturer because they have found a pair that fit right, or they buy off sale tables -- or they talk to sales people in stores who have recommendations, sometimes good and sometimes bad. They try stuff on. They go to Amazon or the internet to learn about fit. Do you know anyone who bought a pair of shorts because of an ad about sexy legs? I don't.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, people do buy clothing for status, although not so much with bicycle clothing. Regrettably, Assos is really good clothing, although not worth the stratospheric prices -- but one could argue the point, unlike civilian clothing that is just a $50 t-shirt with a designer logo, and $50 because of the logo.
> > > > > > > Personally, I can't think of a single bicycle product that I bought because of advertising, hard-sell and all the other things you imagine.
> > > > > > Hah! Are you claiming you're immune to the effects of advertising? If
> > > > > > so, can you give me a list of clothing, shoes, pedals, lights, saddles,
> > > > > > bar tape, tires, tubes and bikes that you did _not_ see in advertisements?
> > > > > Yes, I'm immune if you imagine advertising as some sort of mind control. And are you talking about ads or just a product description on a web-page? Whenever I buy off the internet, I look at the seller's product description -- which may or may not contain much in the way of promotion.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't remember an ad being responsible for anything I've purchased ever. I didn't see any ads for my gaggle of Specialized shoes. Guess where I got those? I got most of my jerseys from riding on teams, sale tables, from my son's teams or employers, or local companies with basically no advertising presence (Hyperthreads in SLC -- great stuff https://hyperthreads..com/ [product placement]). I had some Blix jerseys from a short-lived company in Portland in the 90s that sponsored a team I was on. Castelli USA is in Portland, and I bought stuff from their annual give-away. Rapha was here, too, but they got bought by the Walmart Bros. and moved to Arkansas! I didn't buy anything from their sale because it didn't fit. Showers Pass is PDX, too, but I bought my jacket on sale at Western Bikeworks after trying it on, along with a bunch of other jackets. I know they advertise, but I haven't seen one of their ads. Its just good stuff, but I'm still watching what my friends are buying to see if their jackets perform better.
> > > > >
> > > > > I get EP at Specialized and have access to other products that many don't, but for other purchases like my FD, I surf the internet going first to Western where I have points that are about to expire. They were out of product, so I went elsewhere. I've never seen an ad and said "I need that!" Has anyone here done that?
> > > > > > While not necessarily endorsing their practices, I note that Joerg and
> > > > > > Scharf at least seem to search for off-brand stuff they think is as
> > > > > > good. Your tendency seems to be to buy not the current "Best!!!" from
> > > > > > the most advertised manufacturers, but the slightly less advertised
> > > > > > second best from the same manufacturers.
> > > > > Do you even know what I own or how I got it? All of my current bikes were bought as replacements for other bikes that had been stolen, failed or been destroyed. I got them either directly from the company (a client) or on sale at Western or as warranty replacement. I bought none of them based on advertisements Warranty replacements are take-it-or-leave-it.
> > > > > > I'd say one goal of the advertising industry is to convince people that
> > > > > > they made the wisest, most rational choice in their purchases - that is,
> > > > > > a choice completely unaffected by advertising. I think that with most A
> > > > > > people, they're succeeding.
> > > > > The advertising industry has become your white whale.
> > > > >
> > > > > -- Jay Beattie.
> > > > >
> > > > Christ. As the only one here who actually knows anything about the practice of advertising, I can only admire the depth of your delusion, Jay. Count the brandnames that you place exactly in their relative environment in your "I'm immune to advertising" screed, and congratulate about 500 ad people who're right now having a rich laugh at you doing volunteer work for them, advertising goods (1) for whose sales they'll claim credit.
> > > >
> > > > I've told you before: stick to what you know, not to what you think you know. You could have asked your clients about advertising, but you didn't, and it is obvious you didn't ask, you just sprayed ignorance off the top of your head.
> > > Dear Oracle, I am an expert in me and have a pretty good idea of what motivates my purchases.
> > >
> > I've saved that sentence for when Post-Chinese Pandemic my Post-Doctoral Tutorial starts meeting again; It'll be good for a laugh. Do you really think you'd know when I influenced you? You have a fridge in your kitchen, and a deepfreeze, don't you?. Check the brands in them. That's me, and people I trained, in your head and your wife's head.
> > >And yes, I do receive information word of mouth,
> > You've deliberately misunderstood me. You were giving -- as you do almost daily -- strong word of mouth accolades to heavily advertised brands. Of course you receive word of mouth advertising every day. That's hardly notable.
> > >but that is not what Frank was talking about.
> > Who cares shit what that pompous clot witters on about? Wake me when he says something interesting.
> > >I also suspect your advertising experience is a bit stale,
> > You don't even know what I did in advertising.
> > >being that we now have the internet -- and indoor plumbing. Did you really write this book in 1877? https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01F9QNHY0/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_taft_p1_i4
> > It feels like it every time yet another typographer writes to ask if he can come make obeisance.
> > > I think the more interesting question is how civilians make their purchasing decision. I'm sure advertising plays a role -- and particularly brand awareness, but how many people watch the TdF or even know who Peter Sagan is? I doubt many people have even seen a Bicycling magazine. Most people do research on the internet and/or ask a friend. I bet YouTube is far more important now than Bicycling. Reviews are the advertising these days -- both professional and amateur.
> > >
> > > How did you end up with your Byzantine Utopia Kranich? That must have been some weird advertising mind control.
> > Easy. I knew what I wanted the bike to do, and I'm not bothered about the opinions of one-size-fits-all lemmings like you. I've never, either before or after I bought one, seen any Utopia-Velo advertising. They spend their marketing budget taking their bikes to shows and letting the public inspect them close up, and on very detailed long-read catalogues. In fact the significant recommendation that swayed my purchase came from RBT: Chalo Colina recommended the Utopia Kranich. I looked into Chalo and found him to have impressive achievements, and then looked into Utopia-Velo and found them to cling stubbornly to a unique vision; I'd earlier looked into the Kranich but rejected it as overpriced and pretty odd, but I decided, on hand of Chalo's recommendation and warming towards the Utopia-Velo design philosophy to try one of their bikes. I haven't regretted the decision a minute since. It's a first class bike, but you do need a fair bit of self-confidence to bring it off.
> >
> Oh, so you're some lemming that follows word-of-mouth advertising? Pffff. And all of my bikes fit me and are not some sissy sit-up-and-beg mixte frame from the industrial revolution. https://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/UtopiaKranich0109/Bottom%20Bracket%20Shell.jpg That bike has enough tubing to re-plumb my house.
> Speaking as a real man, I can tell you that real men do not ride those bikes. And as I understand it, the bike now has a motor, probably stolen from an 1950s Erector Set to match the over-all aesthetic. I imagine it is easier riding that bike during the pandemic since you can hide -- at least in part -- behind a face mask. And any time you want, I'll drag race you on the Vado. https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/a26933762/specialized-turbo-vado-reivew/ Bicycling says it makes my legs look sexy.
>
> -- Jay Beattie.
..
Don't forget to shave the hair off your ears at the same time as you shave your legs. You don't want to be mistaken for my bonobo Mini-Andre IV on his unicycle.

jbeattie <jbeattie57@msn.com> writes:

> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 1:49:14 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 12:56:50 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> > Do you pretend there's no such thing as impulse buying? I'd think most
>> > shopkeepers would disagree. I was with a certain lady at an art gallery
>> > the other day. Before I could blink, she paid $20 for a ceramic acorn
>> > about the size of a baseball. Because of the benefits of a ceramic acorn?
>> Do you find that immoral or something?
>
> $20 is a good price for a ceramic acorn. Have you seen the price of
> ceramic acorns lately? I would have gotten two.

Ceramic acorns have much, much better than they used to be. If you have
any old ones laying around I suggest putting them on craigslist and
buying some good, modern ones. Or just take them out and shoot them.

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:

> On 10/12/2021 4:49 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 12:56:50 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>>> Do you pretend there's no such thing as impulse buying? I'd think most
>>> shopkeepers would disagree. I was with a certain lady at an art gallery
>>> the other day. Before I could blink, she paid $20 for a ceramic acorn
>>> about the size of a baseball. Because of the benefits of a ceramic acorn?
>>
>> Do you find that immoral or something?
>
> I count it as evidence that Jay's claim was wrong. He said
> "Most people do consider benefits and detriments." The lady in
> question apparently considered only "I _want_ that ceramic acorn."

I wish I could read minds like that. Is there something I could buy?

> Many purchases are like that, and that level of thinking is what most
> advertisements strive to promote.

--

On 10/13/2021 10:13 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>
>> On 10/12/2021 4:49 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 12:56:50 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>>> Do you pretend there's no such thing as impulse buying? I'd think most
>>>> shopkeepers would disagree. I was with a certain lady at an art gallery
>>>> the other day. Before I could blink, she paid $20 for a ceramic acorn
>>>> about the size of a baseball. Because of the benefits of a ceramic acorn?
>>>
>>> Do you find that immoral or something?
>>
>> I count it as evidence that Jay's claim was wrong. He said
>> "Most people do consider benefits and detriments." The lady in
>> question apparently considered only "I _want_ that ceramic acorn."
>
> I wish I could read minds like that. Is there something I could buy?

Check the advertisements. I'm sure somebody sells something claiming to
give you that power.

BTW, I know the lady in question very, very well.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 4:13:24 PM UTC+2, Radey Shouman wrote:

> I wish I could read minds like that. Is there something I could buy?

Good question. Frank got me into a moral dilemma. I only need 50% of my income to live comfortable (food, clothes, housing, insurance). What to do with the rest? Go on safari to Tanzania for 5000 euro pp to see some f*cking elephants and some lazy lions like a friend of mine? I discarded that idea; I watch the National Geographic channel. Pay off my mortgage? Damn, I already did that. Buy a new bike? Damn again, I have all the bikes I need. Sigh.... I stopped for a coffee and some pastry during todays ride. It was a impulse decision and spent 4.50 euro. Wait, wait I bought a new Ipad a couple of weeks ago to replace my 'old' Ipad air from 2014; slow but still working more or less. I will give it away. What is worse I bought the Ipad Pro 2021 12.9 inch. Totally unnecessary. It is hard to live like Frank.

Lou

On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 7:48:15 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 4:13:24 PM UTC+2, Radey Shouman wrote:
>
> > I wish I could read minds like that. Is there something I could buy?
> Good question. Frank got me into a moral dilemma. I only need 50% of my income to live comfortable (food, clothes, housing, insurance). What to do with the rest? Go on safari to Tanzania for 5000 euro pp to see some f*cking elephants and some lazy lions like a friend of mine? I discarded that idea; I watch the National Geographic channel. Pay off my mortgage? Damn, I already did that. Buy a new bike? Damn again, I have all the bikes I need. Sigh... I stopped for a coffee and some pastry during todays ride. It was a impulse decision and spent 4.50 euro. Wait, wait I bought a new Ipad a couple of weeks ago to replace my 'old' Ipad air from 2014; slow but still working more or less. I will give it away. What is worse I bought the Ipad Pro 2021 12.9 inch. Totally unnecessary. It is hard to live like Frank.

It has crossed my mind that I have an Eddy Merckx Elite - an aluminum bike - up for sale on craigslist. At the moment nothing is selling through the other day a guy bought the Lemond steel bike with the Di2 group on it. He paid my full asking price after I turned down several offers. I don't know if they were from him and from what he said, I don't think it was.

There is a steel bike with steel fork on the Internet very like the special Basso Loto I had. When I sell the Eddy, I am wondering if I should buy it, strip the parts off of one of the titanium bikes that has the 10 speed stuff on it, sell off that Ti frameset since the Merlin and Airborne (especially the Airborne) are such good bikes that I won't need any more ti bikes and they sell pretty rapidly. I miss the Basso and a ride-alike might be nice to have. The Basso's available are NOTHING like the one I had.

On 10/12/2021 11:15 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 6:24:28 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 10/12/2021 12:05 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 8:32:31 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 10/11/2021 8:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I had a Microshift RD, and it was O.K. Buying the Microshift Centos FD was a $6 savings over a Shimano 105 that matches the rest of my commuter-bike group. It's worth the $6 to me to get branded stuff.
>>>> I think that last sentence belies a lot of your previous arguments.
>>>
>>> Why? The branded stuff comes with usable warranties, dealer networks, direct contacts (my son contacts at Shimano and not Microshift) -- R&D and a track record.
>> ??? And you feel you need all that for a front derailleur? Wow.
>
> Yes, if I wanted a POS FD, I'd keep the one I have. You're arguing with me over $6.

It's not the $6. It's the fact that you, who claims advertising doesn't
affect you, purposely picked your replacement derailleur based only on
its brand. It's about as clever as the guys who pay $20 or whatever to
put a huge "FORD" decal on the back window of their Ford pickup truck.

>> Why do you care? Does Portland stage a Concourse d'Elegance for commuter
>> bikes?
>
> No, but you know it will work if it is all part of the same product group, e.g. R7000 series. The components in a series are designed to work well together. Why would I want a Chinese off-brand when, for a mere $6, I can be sure the product will work and work really well? The finish is better, too. My Microshift 9sp RD was pretty rough. It's six f****** dollars. I'm buying the better product.

Ah yes. If we ever meet in person, I'll try to remember to praise the
finish of your commuter's front derailleur! I'll make you so proud! :-)

Of course, by then you'll have a 1x system. I'll probably have to praise
your radio controlled two speed hub instead.

>> Please, Jay. You keep trying to pretend bike-related advertising doesn't
>> exist. That's just silly.
>
> I'm serious. Direct me to any bicycle advertising in publications of general circulation.

I'm working by memory here, but try Outside magazine.

> Have you ever seen a T.V. commercial for a bike? I haven't.

I have, and I watch VERY little TV.

> Do people even buy magazines anymore?

Hell yes! Do you never enter bookstores, grocery stores, pharmacies?

> Go to your browser and type in "what bicycle should I buy?" It's not very enlightening. As Dr. Science, you should be more specific and identify particular advertisements that you think are coercing purchasers.

It's not a particular advertisement, Jay. It's an industry. Its entire
purpose is to influence purchases, and it thrives by doing just that. It
astounds me that you pretend it has no effect.

>>> "Close clearance frames" were a thing starting in the mid to late '70s, and you skipped it only because you didn't buy a racing bike -- and apparently didn't race. They were fine for racing bikes.
>> They were fine for bikes used only for racing. And they were bought by
>> millions of riders who never raced, because they were the bikes that
>> were deemed "best" by the advertising industry and other influencers.
>
> O.K., what influencers and what advertisements? Short-reach brakes were basically foisted upon consumers looking for a sport bike, although I got my wife a Trek 400 way back when, which still had standard reach brakes. She used that as her touring bike. What produced the tight-clearance and short-drop trend, I don't know. Maybe Andrew can shed some light on it.

I don't know either, any more than I know the precise mechanics behind
the sudden shift to disc brakes. Both produce negligible benefit for the
vast majority of purchases, but both were or are nearly universal within
a certain class of bike.

What I know is, we discussed the close clearance frame trend here, just
as enthusiastically as we're now discussing marketing. I don't remember
what position you took, but I had people yelling at me, saying "less
weight!" and "aerodynamics!" were the tremendous benefits of not being
allowed to fit a 28mm tire.

Now, just a few years later, people are yelling "You can fit 42mm
tires!" to justify heavier and less aerodynamic disc brakes. But you're
pretending marketing is not influential?

>> I'll admit, one of the two handlebar bags I designed and built is made
>> of canvas. None of my other handlebar bags are. But none of my bikes
>> have 1960s cranks. I guess I'm not retro fashionable after all!
>
> Your ST800 is not fashionable.

Thank you. I prefer to ignore fashion.

> This is fashionable: https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop/bikes/80th-anniversary-rene-herse-bike-down-payment/ A steal at $14K.

If they're really fashionable, they'll soon populate every bike shop you
walk into. Snap one up, Jay!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 12:12:19 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
> On 10/12/2021 8:15 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > Your ST800 is not fashionable. This is fashionable: https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop/bikes/80th-anniversary-rene-herse-bike-down-payment/ A steal at $14K.
> Nice, but they really need to add the new square chainrings
> <https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p4pb15746918/p4pb15746918.jpg>.

BTW, the geometry/component group (abbreviated) is kind of bizarre:

Geometry / Handling / Fit:
These bikes are designed with a low-trail front-end geometry for a bent-elbows riding position with a light touch on the handlebars. If you tend to grip the handlebars firmly, these bikes will feel 'nervous,' as they react even to small handlebar inputs.
Like most Rene Herse bikes, the 80th anniversary models has a horizontal top tube and not much standover clearance, if any. In decades of riding, we have found that this is usually not an issue, since you put only one foot down when you stop.
Need a bike in a size outside the range we offer? Want a specific seat tube angle, generous stand-over clearance, or a geometry or fit that we don't offer? Please talk to a custom builder about making a bike for you – we're not expert bike fitters, and we offer these bikes only in the size range and with geometries where we have experience.
Specifications:
Frame: Kaisei tubing (Extralight, Mule or Oversize)
Click here for more info about our frame tubing
Fork: Kaisei 'TOEI Special' blades, Rene Herse crown, SON SL system
Bottom bracket: Rene Herse pressed-in bearings
Cranks: Rene Herse 12-speed double, titanium crank bolts
Derailleurs, choice of:
Nivex rear, Rene Herse lever-operated front
SRAM Force eTap 12-speed
* * * * *

So, you can get an odd-ball retro rear derailleur . . . or eTap 12sp? Whiplash. How about at a normal Campy/Shimano? And pressed in BB bearings? That makes no sense. The reason I would go retro is to get a BSA BB -- and maybe they mean bearings pressed in threaded cartridge, but it doesn't appear that way. The description of geometry and fit kind of screams "you don't want to buy this bike."

-- Jay Beattie.

On 10/13/2021 10:48 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 4:13:24 PM UTC+2, Radey Shouman wrote:
>
>> I wish I could read minds like that. Is there something I could buy?
>
> Good question. Frank got me into a moral dilemma. I only need 50% of my income to live comfortable (food, clothes, housing, insurance). What to do with the rest? Go on safari to Tanzania for 5000 euro pp to see some f*cking elephants and some lazy lions like a friend of mine? I discarded that idea; I watch the National Geographic channel. Pay off my mortgage? Damn, I already did that. Buy a new bike? Damn again, I have all the bikes I need....

Seriously, I understand that problem perfectly.

I think most Americans would partially solve it by buying a much more
luxurious house. But we love where we live and recently put tens of
thousands of dollars into a lovely expansion.

Too much contentment makes it hard to spend money. I keep wondering how
to best choose charities. For example, https://worldbicyclerelief.org/

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 9:07:41 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 12:12:19 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
> > On 10/12/2021 8:15 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> > > Your ST800 is not fashionable. This is fashionable: https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop/bikes/80th-anniversary-rene-herse-bike-down-payment/ A steal at $14K.
> > Nice, but they really need to add the new square chainrings
> > <https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p4pb15746918/p4pb15746918.jpg>.
> BTW, the geometry/component group (abbreviated) is kind of bizarre:
>
> Geometry / Handling / Fit:
> These bikes are designed with a low-trail front-end geometry for a bent-elbows riding position with a light touch on the handlebars. If you tend to grip the handlebars firmly, these bikes will feel 'nervous,' as they react even to small handlebar inputs.
> Like most Rene Herse bikes, the 80th anniversary models has a horizontal top tube and not much standover clearance, if any. In decades of riding, we have found that this is usually not an issue, since you put only one foot down when you stop.
> Need a bike in a size outside the range we offer? Want a specific seat tube angle, generous stand-over clearance, or a geometry or fit that we don't offer? Please talk to a custom builder about making a bike for you – we're not expert bike fitters, and we offer these bikes only in the size range and with geometries where we have experience.
> Specifications:
> Frame: Kaisei tubing (Extralight, Mule or Oversize)
> Click here for more info about our frame tubing
> Fork: Kaisei 'TOEI Special' blades, Rene Herse crown, SON SL system
> Bottom bracket: Rene Herse pressed-in bearings
> Cranks: Rene Herse 12-speed double, titanium crank bolts
> Derailleurs, choice of:
> Nivex rear, Rene Herse lever-operated front
> SRAM Force eTap 12-speed
> * * * * *
>
> So, you can get an odd-ball retro rear derailleur . . . or eTap 12sp? Whiplash. How about at a normal Campy/Shimano? And pressed in BB bearings? That makes no sense. The reason I would go retro is to get a BSA BB -- and maybe they mean bearings pressed in threaded cartridge, but it doesn't appear that way. The description of geometry and fit kind of screams "you don't want to buy this bike."

Frank is the guy who would buy the cheapest regardless of reliability or ease of replacement. He would NEVER buy a 9-speed Microshift (which was notoriously unreliable) but if they had a 6 speed counterpart he would jump at it since it is $6 cheaper.

Microshift addressed their unreliability problem starting with the 10 and 11 speed front derailleurs and supposedly greatly improved them.

On 10/13/2021 7:48 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 4:13:24 PM UTC+2, Radey Shouman wrote:
>
>> I wish I could read minds like that. Is there something I could buy?
>
> Good question. Frank got me into a moral dilemma. I only need 50% of my income to live comfortable (food, clothes, housing, insurance). What to do with the rest? Go on safari to Tanzania for 5000 euro pp to see some f*cking elephants and some lazy lions like a friend of mine? I discarded that idea; I watch the National Geographic channel. Pay off my mortgage? Damn, I already did that. Buy a new bike? Damn again, I have all the bikes I need. Sigh... I stopped for a coffee and some pastry during todays ride. It was a impulse decision and spent 4.50 euro. Wait, wait I bought a new Ipad a couple of weeks ago to replace my 'old' Ipad air from 2014; slow but still working more or less. I will give it away. What is worse I bought the Ipad Pro 2021 12.9 inch. Totally unnecessary. It is hard to live like Frank.

That new iPad, in the U.S. costs around $1200. For that much money you
could have bought a dynamo wheel with a SON hub and a Supernova E3
Triple, with some left over.

But thank you for buying that new iPad Pro 12.9 inch. Why not take some
more of your disposable income and buy an iPhone 13 Pro Max, some
AirPods, and a new Macbook Pro?

On 10/13/2021 12:07 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 12:12:19 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
>> On 10/12/2021 8:15 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>> Your ST800 is not fashionable. This is fashionable: https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop/bikes/80th-anniversary-rene-herse-bike-down-payment/ A steal at $14K.
>> Nice, but they really need to add the new square chainrings
>> <https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p4pb15746918/p4pb15746918.jpg>.
>
> BTW, the geometry/component group (abbreviated) is kind of bizarre:
>
> Geometry / Handling / Fit:
> These bikes are designed with a low-trail front-end geometry for a bent-elbows riding position with a light touch on the handlebars. If you tend to grip the handlebars firmly, these bikes will feel 'nervous,' as they react even to small handlebar inputs.
> Like most Rene Herse bikes, the 80th anniversary models has a horizontal top tube and not much standover clearance, if any. In decades of riding, we have found that this is usually not an issue, since you put only one foot down when you stop.
> Need a bike in a size outside the range we offer? Want a specific seat tube angle, generous stand-over clearance, or a geometry or fit that we don't offer? Please talk to a custom builder about making a bike for you – we're not expert bike fitters, and we offer these bikes only in the size range and with geometries where we have experience.
> Specifications:
> Frame: Kaisei tubing (Extralight, Mule or Oversize)
> Click here for more info about our frame tubing
> Fork: Kaisei 'TOEI Special' blades, Rene Herse crown, SON SL system
> Bottom bracket: Rene Herse pressed-in bearings
> Cranks: Rene Herse 12-speed double, titanium crank bolts
> Derailleurs, choice of:
> Nivex rear, Rene Herse lever-operated front
> SRAM Force eTap 12-speed
> * * * * *
>
> So, you can get an odd-ball retro rear derailleur . . . or eTap 12sp? Whiplash. How about at a normal Campy/Shimano? And pressed in BB bearings? That makes no sense. The reason I would go retro is to get a BSA BB -- and maybe they mean bearings pressed in threaded cartridge, but it doesn't appear that way. The description of geometry and fit kind of screams "you don't want to buy this bike."

While I think Jan Heine has had some good and pretty original ideas, I'm
going to shock you by saying that I think his current presentations are
often nuts.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 8:53:01 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 10/12/2021 11:15 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 6:24:28 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 10/12/2021 12:05 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 8:32:31 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> On 10/11/2021 8:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I had a Microshift RD, and it was O.K. Buying the Microshift Centos FD was a $6 savings over a Shimano 105 that matches the rest of my commuter-bike group. It's worth the $6 to me to get branded stuff.
> >>>> I think that last sentence belies a lot of your previous arguments.
> >>>
> >>> Why? The branded stuff comes with usable warranties, dealer networks, direct contacts (my son contacts at Shimano and not Microshift) -- R&D and a track record.
> >> ??? And you feel you need all that for a front derailleur? Wow.
> >
> > Yes, if I wanted a POS FD, I'd keep the one I have. You're arguing with me over $6.
> It's not the $6. It's the fact that you, who claims advertising doesn't
> affect you, purposely picked your replacement derailleur based only on
> its brand. It's about as clever as the guys who pay $20 or whatever to
> put a huge "FORD" decal on the back window of their Ford pickup truck.

O.K., if presented with the choice between a Microshift and a Shimano derailleur, with a price difference of $6, which would you buy? They are different designs, different finishes, and one is specifically recommended for your existing group. See, e.g., https://bikesale.com/microshiftcentosfrontderailleur11-speeddoublebraze-onshimanocompatible.aspx versus https://tinyurl.com/z6589eha BTW, I made a mistake. It's a $5 spread. So, for five bucks, you would get some Chinese knock-off or the derailleur designed for your levers?

And what possible advertising have I seen that would drive this choice? I know what I'm getting with the Shimano because I have the Ultegra version of the same derailleur on my Trek.

> >> Why do you care? Does Portland stage a Concourse d'Elegance for commuter
> >> bikes?
> >
> > No, but you know it will work if it is all part of the same product group, e.g. R7000 series. The components in a series are designed to work well together. Why would I want a Chinese off-brand when, for a mere $6, I can be sure the product will work and work really well? The finish is better, too. My Microshift 9sp RD was pretty rough. It's six f****** dollars. I'm buying the better product.
> Ah yes. If we ever meet in person, I'll try to remember to praise the
> finish of your commuter's front derailleur! I'll make you so proud! :-)
>
> Of course, by then you'll have a 1x system. I'll probably have to praise
> your radio controlled two speed hub instead.

You're changing subjects and making things up. We're talking about a demonstrably better FD -- which is inconsistent with 1X, BTW. I don't want a radio controlled 2-speed hub, but one day I might. Who knows. It may solve a future problem. And if somebody rode by with one, I could care less.

> >> Please, Jay. You keep trying to pretend bike-related advertising doesn't
> >> exist. That's just silly.
> >
> > I'm serious. Direct me to any bicycle advertising in publications of general circulation.
> I'm working by memory here, but try Outside magazine.
> > Have you ever seen a T.V. commercial for a bike? I haven't.
> I have, and I watch VERY little TV.

What bike? I've never seen one, at least since Schwinn released the Stingray.

> > Do people even buy magazines anymore?
> Hell yes! Do you never enter bookstores, grocery stores, pharmacies?
> > Go to your browser and type in "what bicycle should I buy?" It's not very enlightening. As Dr. Science, you should be more specific and identify particular advertisements that you think are coercing purchasers.
> It's not a particular advertisement, Jay. It's an industry. Its entire
> purpose is to influence purchases, and it thrives by doing just that. It
> astounds me that you pretend it has no effect.

You see white whales everywhere and cannot point one out for me. This should be easy. Show me how evil Big Bike is bending the minds of witless consumers to buy useless stuff (by your definition as arbiter of what is "needed" or "useful").

> >>> "Close clearance frames" were a thing starting in the mid to late '70s, and you skipped it only because you didn't buy a racing bike -- and apparently didn't race. They were fine for racing bikes.
> >> They were fine for bikes used only for racing. And they were bought by
> >> millions of riders who never raced, because they were the bikes that
> >> were deemed "best" by the advertising industry and other influencers.
> >
> > O.K., what influencers and what advertisements? Short-reach brakes were basically foisted upon consumers looking for a sport bike, although I got my wife a Trek 400 way back when, which still had standard reach brakes. She used that as her touring bike. What produced the tight-clearance and short-drop trend, I don't know. Maybe Andrew can shed some light on it.
> I don't know either, any more than I know the precise mechanics behind
> the sudden shift to disc brakes. Both produce negligible benefit for the
> vast majority of purchases, but both were or are nearly universal within
> a certain class of bike.
>
> What I know is, we discussed the close clearance frame trend here, just
> as enthusiastically as we're now discussing marketing. I don't remember
> what position you took, but I had people yelling at me, saying "less
> weight!" and "aerodynamics!" were the tremendous benefits of not being
> allowed to fit a 28mm tire.
>
> Now, just a few years later, people are yelling "You can fit 42mm
> tires!" to justify heavier and less aerodynamic disc brakes. But you're
> pretending marketing is not influential?

I'm not pretending anything. I'm asking you to point out what advertising, influencing, etc., etc. affects the decision to buy a particular bike. I agree that advertising promotes brand recognition and brand confidence -- and I see absolutely no problem with that. But you have this weird conspiracy theory of advertising -- like Big Bike is out to make you look bad for owning a museum piece. If advertising is making everybody buy something, I would like to see the advertising.

I'm going to ask some civilian friends why they bought what they bought. One of my partners got a custom steel frame, a Specialized Ruby and a Trek Checkpoint ALR -- all great purchases, and I guaranty you that the steel frame was unadvertised.

> >
> > Your ST800 is not fashionable.
> Thank you. I prefer to ignore fashion.
> > This is fashionable: https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop/bikes/80th-anniversary-rene-herse-bike-down-payment/ A steal at $14K.
> If they're really fashionable, they'll soon populate every bike shop you
> walk into. Snap one up, Jay!

Most shops are not into high fashion like Rene Herse -- which is more like couture than the off-the-rack. You have to plead with Jan Heine to actually own a Rene Herse.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 10/13/2021 9:40 AM, jbeattie wrote:

<snip>

It interesting that bicycle manufacturers don't spend any money on mass
media advertising. You might see a print ad in a bicycle magazine, but
I've never seen a TV commercial, or heard a radio ad, from a bicycle
manufacturer. I found one from 1980
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozJw_vZkDts>. Frank must watch a huge
amount of television if he managed to see a bicycle commercial.

On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 10:14:10 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
> On 10/13/2021 9:40 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> It interesting that bicycle manufacturers don't spend any money on mass
> media advertising. You might see a print ad in a bicycle magazine, but
> I've never seen a TV commercial, or heard a radio ad, from a bicycle
> manufacturer. I found one from 1980
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozJw_vZkDts>. Frank must watch a huge
> amount of television if he managed to see a bicycle commercial.

Pffff. I beat Eric Heiden at a SLAC race. He crashed, along with the front-half of the field. BTW, I saw that commercial in 1980 and bought a bunch of Schwinn bikes, on impulse. Advertising is powerful.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 10/13/2021 10:36 AM, jbeattie wrote:

<snip>

> Pffff. I beat Eric Heiden at a SLAC race. He crashed, along with the front-half of the field.

But no one kissed the pavement where your tires touched.

On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 6:22:25 PM UTC+2, sms wrote:
> On 10/13/2021 7:48 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 4:13:24 PM UTC+2, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >
> >> I wish I could read minds like that. Is there something I could buy?
> >
> > Good question. Frank got me into a moral dilemma. I only need 50% of my income to live comfortable (food, clothes, housing, insurance). What to do with the rest? Go on safari to Tanzania for 5000 euro pp to see some f*cking elephants and some lazy lions like a friend of mine? I discarded that idea; I watch the National Geographic channel. Pay off my mortgage? Damn, I already did that. Buy a new bike? Damn again, I have all the bikes I need. Sigh... I stopped for a coffee and some pastry during todays ride. It was a impulse decision and spent 4.50 euro. Wait, wait I bought a new Ipad a couple of weeks ago to replace my 'old' Ipad air from 2014; slow but still working more or less. I will give it away. What is worse I bought the Ipad Pro 2021 12.9 inch. Totally unnecessary. It is hard to live like Frank.
> That new iPad, in the U.S. costs around $1200. For that much money you
> could have bought a dynamo wheel with a SON hub and a Supernova E3
> Triple, with some left over.
>

Because of higher priority this was already taken care of. Well a Son Edelux II instead of the Supernova E3.

> But thank you for buying that new iPad Pro 12.9 inch. Why not take some
> more of your disposable income and buy an iPhone 13 Pro Max, some
> AirPods, and a new Macbook Pro?

Just got a Iphone 12 mini a year ago from my employer. It will last until my retirement. Airpods don't work with my ears. I will lose them within a day. The Ipad Pro is also a replacement for my 2009 Macbook Pro. Still working but stuck in El Capitan. Any other ideas?

Lou

On 10/13/2021 12:40 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 8:53:01 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 10/12/2021 11:15 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 6:24:28 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 10/12/2021 12:05 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 8:32:31 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/11/2021 8:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I had a Microshift RD, and it was O.K. Buying the Microshift Centos FD was a $6 savings over a Shimano 105 that matches the rest of my commuter-bike group. It's worth the $6 to me to get branded stuff.
>>>>>> I think that last sentence belies a lot of your previous arguments.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why? The branded stuff comes with usable warranties, dealer networks, direct contacts (my son contacts at Shimano and not Microshift) -- R&D and a track record.
>>>> ??? And you feel you need all that for a front derailleur? Wow.
>>>
>>> Yes, if I wanted a POS FD, I'd keep the one I have. You're arguing with me over $6.
>> It's not the $6. It's the fact that you, who claims advertising doesn't
>> affect you, purposely picked your replacement derailleur based only on
>> its brand. It's about as clever as the guys who pay $20 or whatever to
>> put a huge "FORD" decal on the back window of their Ford pickup truck.
>
> O.K., if presented with the choice between a Microshift and a Shimano derailleur, with a price difference of $6, which would you buy? They are different designs, different finishes, and one is specifically recommended for your existing group. See, e.g., https://bikesale.com/microshiftcentosfrontderailleur11-speeddoublebraze-onshimanocompatible.aspx versus https://tinyurl.com/z6589eha BTW, I made a mistake. It's a $5 spread. So, for five bucks, you would get some Chinese knock-off or the derailleur designed for your levers?
>
> And what possible advertising have I seen that would drive this choice? I know what I'm getting with the Shimano because I have the Ultegra version of the same derailleur on my Trek.

In real life, if I needed a derailleur I'd probably look in my
derailleur box. If none of those worked I'd probably bike to my closest
LBS and get what they had in stock. I wouldn't worry about compatibility
because friction is compatible with anything. Admittedly, I suppose
they'd more likely have Shimano than Microshift in stock.

But that's OK! Because the advertising you somehow didn't see on that
page said this:

"The Shimano FD-R7000 Front Derailleur offers lighter front shifting
with a natural stroke feel. The derailleur's cage design is optimized to
perform with disc brake road bikes, while multiple cable routing options
and integrated cable tension adjustment allow for precise setup and easy
adjustments. As part of Shimano's 105 R7000 series, this front
derailleur is ideal for beginner road cyclists, combining great value
with trickle-down technology from Shimano's top-tier groups."

By golly, I _want_ lighter, natural stroke feel! I want optimized, and I
want easy adjustments. But do I have to worry that I'm not a "beginner
road cyclist?" Hmm. Maybe I'd better get Dura-Ace...

>>>> Why do you care? Does Portland stage a Concourse d'Elegance for commuter
>>>> bikes?
>>>
>>> No, but you know it will work if it is all part of the same product group, e.g. R7000 series. The components in a series are designed to work well together.

Ah yes. It's designed so when you pull the cable, it moves the
derailleur. So sophisticated!

> Why would I want a Chinese off-brand when, for a mere $6, I can be sure the product will work and work really well? The finish is better, too. My Microshift 9sp RD was pretty rough.

And with the Commuter Bike Concours d'Elegance fast approaching...

>> Ah yes. If we ever meet in person, I'll try to remember to praise the
>> finish of your commuter's front derailleur! I'll make you so proud! :-)
>>
>> Of course, by then you'll have a 1x system. I'll probably have to praise
>> your radio controlled two speed hub instead.
>
> You're changing subjects and making things up. We're talking about a demonstrably better FD -- which is inconsistent with 1X, BTW.

:-) That was my point, Jay! (IOW: whoosh!)

>>>> Please, Jay. You keep trying to pretend bike-related advertising doesn't
>>>> exist. That's just silly.
>>>
>>> I'm serious. Direct me to any bicycle advertising in publications of general circulation.
>> I'm working by memory here, but try Outside magazine.
>>> Have you ever seen a T.V. commercial for a bike? I haven't.
>> I have, and I watch VERY little TV.
>
> What bike? I've never seen one, at least since Schwinn released the Stingray.

OK, try this one:
https://www.ispot.tv/ad/7PEu/giant-bicycles-the-ultimate-cycling-experience

although this one's more fun:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfQOjl9sk9A

>> It's not a particular advertisement, Jay. It's an industry. Its entire
>> purpose is to influence purchases, and it thrives by doing just that. It
>> astounds me that you pretend it has no effect.
>
> You see white whales everywhere and cannot point one out for me. This should be easy. Show me how evil Big Bike is bending the minds of witless consumers to buy useless stuff (by your definition as arbiter of what is "needed" or "useful").

Disc brakes. Close clearance frames. Octalink. 122" high gears. Have you
been asleep?

>> What I know is, we discussed the close clearance frame trend here, just
>> as enthusiastically as we're now discussing marketing. I don't remember
>> what position you took, but I had people yelling at me, saying "less
>> weight!" and "aerodynamics!" were the tremendous benefits of not being
>> allowed to fit a 28mm tire.
>>
>> Now, just a few years later, people are yelling "You can fit 42mm
>> tires!" to justify heavier and less aerodynamic disc brakes. But you're
>> pretending marketing is not influential?
>
> I'm not pretending anything. I'm asking you to point out what advertising, influencing, etc., etc. affects the decision to buy a particular bike. I agree that advertising promotes brand recognition and brand confidence ...

Why, thank you!

> -- and I see absolutely no problem with that. But you have this weird conspiracy theory of advertising -- like Big Bike is out to make you look bad for owning a museum piece. If advertising is making everybody buy something, I would like to see the advertising.
>
> I'm going to ask some civilian friends why they bought what they bought. One of my partners got a custom steel frame, a Specialized Ruby and a Trek Checkpoint ALR -- all great purchases, and I guaranty you that the steel frame was unadvertised.

Look at that Giant ad again. Because bicycling really is all about
racing and flying through the air on forest trails, isn't it? That's
what everyone does, so everyone should buy the bikes shown in that ad.

> Most shops are not into high fashion like Rene Herse -- which is more like couture than the off-the-rack. You have to plead with Jan Heine to actually own a Rene Herse.

Rene Herse niche is way too "high" to be high fashion. You can't have a
fashion if nobody can buy it.

I've talked before about one of our area's main shops, where I went
trying to help my friend buy a bike. This was just a few years ago.

"28 mm tires? No, you can't put them on this bike. They won't work with
the brakes."

That shop was into fashion - i.e. then-current fashion. So were about
four other shops we hit that day, driving hours to visit them.

BTW, I'm sure that first shop would be selling disc brake gravel bikes
with really fat tires today, because that's the now-current fashion.
Except the shop has closed. It's too bad, because he was a nice guy,
very helpful.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 10/13/2021 9:07 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> jbeattie <jbeattie57@msn.com> writes:
>
>> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 1:49:14 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 12:56:50 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>>> Do you pretend there's no such thing as impulse buying? I'd think most
>>>> shopkeepers would disagree. I was with a certain lady at an art gallery
>>>> the other day. Before I could blink, she paid $20 for a ceramic acorn
>>>> about the size of a baseball. Because of the benefits of a ceramic acorn?
>>> Do you find that immoral or something?
>>
>> $20 is a good price for a ceramic acorn. Have you seen the price of
>> ceramic acorns lately? I would have gotten two.
>
> Ceramic acorns have much, much better than they used to be. If you have
> any old ones laying around I suggest putting them on craigslist and
> buying some good, modern ones. Or just take them out and shoot them.
>

Thank you Mr Shouman! Great idea!

I wish I had thought of ceramic bric-a-brac as targets when
I cleared out my mother's house.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 10/13/2021 10:52 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 10/12/2021 11:15 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 6:24:28 PM UTC-7, Frank
>> Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 10/12/2021 12:05 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 8:32:31 AM UTC-7, Frank
>>>> Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 10/11/2021 8:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I had a Microshift RD, and it was O.K. Buying the
>>>>>> Microshift Centos FD was a $6 savings over a Shimano
>>>>>> 105 that matches the rest of my commuter-bike group.
>>>>>> It's worth the $6 to me to get branded stuff.
>>>>> I think that last sentence belies a lot of your
>>>>> previous arguments.
>>>>
>>>> Why? The branded stuff comes with usable warranties,
>>>> dealer networks, direct contacts (my son contacts at
>>>> Shimano and not Microshift) -- R&D and a track record.
>>> ??? And you feel you need all that for a front
>>> derailleur? Wow.
>>
>> Yes, if I wanted a POS FD, I'd keep the one I have.
>> You're arguing with me over $6.
>
> It's not the $6. It's the fact that you, who claims
> advertising doesn't affect you, purposely picked your
> replacement derailleur based only on its brand. It's about
> as clever as the guys who pay $20 or whatever to put a huge
> "FORD" decal on the back window of their Ford pickup truck.
>
>>> Why do you care? Does Portland stage a Concourse
>>> d'Elegance for commuter
>>> bikes?
>>
>> No, but you know it will work if it is all part of the
>> same product group, e.g. R7000 series. The components in
>> a series are designed to work well together. Why would I
>> want a Chinese off-brand when, for a mere $6, I can be
>> sure the product will work and work really well? The
>> finish is better, too. My Microshift 9sp RD was pretty
>> rough. It's six f****** dollars. I'm buying the better
>> product.
>
> Ah yes. If we ever meet in person, I'll try to remember to
> praise the finish of your commuter's front derailleur! I'll
> make you so proud! :-)
>
> Of course, by then you'll have a 1x system. I'll probably
> have to praise your radio controlled two speed hub instead.
>
>>> Please, Jay. You keep trying to pretend bike-related
>>> advertising doesn't
>>> exist. That's just silly.
>>
>> I'm serious. Direct me to any bicycle advertising in
>> publications of general circulation.
>
> I'm working by memory here, but try Outside magazine.
>
>> Have you ever seen a T.V. commercial for a bike? I haven't.
>
> I have, and I watch VERY little TV.
>
>> Do people even buy magazines anymore?
>
> Hell yes! Do you never enter bookstores, grocery stores,
> pharmacies?
>
>> Go to your browser and type in "what bicycle should I
>> buy?" It's not very enlightening. As Dr. Science, you
>> should be more specific and identify particular
>> advertisements that you think are coercing purchasers.
>
> It's not a particular advertisement, Jay. It's an industry.
> Its entire purpose is to influence purchases, and it thrives
> by doing just that. It astounds me that you pretend it has
> no effect.
>
>>>> "Close clearance frames" were a thing starting in the
>>>> mid to late '70s, and you skipped it only because you
>>>> didn't buy a racing bike -- and apparently didn't race.
>>>> They were fine for racing bikes.
>>> They were fine for bikes used only for racing. And they
>>> were bought by
>>> millions of riders who never raced, because they were the
>>> bikes that
>>> were deemed "best" by the advertising industry and other
>>> influencers.
>>
>> O.K., what influencers and what advertisements?
>> Short-reach brakes were basically foisted upon consumers
>> looking for a sport bike, although I got my wife a Trek
>> 400 way back when, which still had standard reach brakes.
>> She used that as her touring bike. What produced the
>> tight-clearance and short-drop trend, I don't know. Maybe
>> Andrew can shed some light on it.
>
> I don't know either, any more than I know the precise
> mechanics behind the sudden shift to disc brakes. Both
> produce negligible benefit for the vast majority of
> purchases, but both were or are nearly universal within a
> certain class of bike.
>
> What I know is, we discussed the close clearance frame trend
> here, just as enthusiastically as we're now discussing
> marketing. I don't remember what position you took, but I
> had people yelling at me, saying "less weight!" and
> "aerodynamics!" were the tremendous benefits of not being
> allowed to fit a 28mm tire.
>
> Now, just a few years later, people are yelling "You can fit
> 42mm tires!" to justify heavier and less aerodynamic disc
> brakes. But you're pretending marketing is not influential?
>
>>> I'll admit, one of the two handlebar bags I designed and
>>> built is made
>>> of canvas. None of my other handlebar bags are. But none
>>> of my bikes
>>> have 1960s cranks. I guess I'm not retro fashionable
>>> after all!
>>
>> Your ST800 is not fashionable.
>
> Thank you. I prefer to ignore fashion.
>
>> This is fashionable:
>> https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop/bikes/80th-anniversary-rene-herse-bike-down-payment/
>> A steal at $14K.
>
> If they're really fashionable, they'll soon populate every
> bike shop you walk into. Snap one up, Jay!
>

Frank, you don't know what you don't know. Sincerely.

For a 3x6 system a wide swath of cheap FD, new and vintage
will shift acceptably well.

On Mr Beattie's system a 'compatible' from china will be
markedly, annoyingly, less positive. There's significant
engineering in modern changers (cage plate dimensions, ramp
shape and placement, cage stiffness, pivot sleeve quality,
etc) beyond 'compatible' leverage and travel which in itself
can be 'kinds sorta' but not really.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 10/13/2021 11:22 AM, sms wrote:
> On 10/13/2021 7:48 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 4:13:24 PM UTC+2, Radey
>> Shouman wrote:
>>
>>> I wish I could read minds like that. Is there something I
>>> could buy?
>>
>> Good question. Frank got me into a moral dilemma. I only
>> need 50% of my income to live comfortable (food, clothes,
>> housing, insurance). What to do with the rest? Go on
>> safari to Tanzania for 5000 euro pp to see some f*cking
>> elephants and some lazy lions like a friend of mine? I
>> discarded that idea; I watch the National Geographic
>> channel. Pay off my mortgage? Damn, I already did that.
>> Buy a new bike? Damn again, I have all the bikes I need.
>> Sigh... I stopped for a coffee and some pastry during
>> todays ride. It was a impulse decision and spent 4.50
>> euro. Wait, wait I bought a new Ipad a couple of weeks ago
>> to replace my 'old' Ipad air from 2014; slow but still
>> working more or less. I will give it away. What is worse
>> I bought the Ipad Pro 2021 12.9 inch. Totally unnecessary.
>> It is hard to live like Frank.
>
> That new iPad, in the U.S. costs around $1200. For that much
> money you could have bought a dynamo wheel with a SON hub
> and a Supernova E3 Triple, with some left over.

> But thank you for buying that new iPad Pro 12.9 inch. Why
> not take some more of your disposable income and buy an
> iPhone 13 Pro Max, some AirPods, and a new Macbook Pro?

" For that much money you could have bought a dynamo wheel "

or a really nice ceramic acorn...

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 3:27:36 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 10/13/2021 12:40 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 8:53:01 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 10/12/2021 11:15 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 6:24:28 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> On 10/12/2021 12:05 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> >>>>> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 8:32:31 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>> On 10/11/2021 8:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I had a Microshift RD, and it was O.K. Buying the Microshift Centos FD was a $6 savings over a Shimano 105 that matches the rest of my commuter-bike group. It's worth the $6 to me to get branded stuff.
> >>>>>> I think that last sentence belies a lot of your previous arguments..
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Why? The branded stuff comes with usable warranties, dealer networks, direct contacts (my son contacts at Shimano and not Microshift) -- R&D and a track record.
> >>>> ??? And you feel you need all that for a front derailleur? Wow.
> >>>
> >>> Yes, if I wanted a POS FD, I'd keep the one I have. You're arguing with me over $6.
> >> It's not the $6. It's the fact that you, who claims advertising doesn't
> >> affect you, purposely picked your replacement derailleur based only on
> >> its brand. It's about as clever as the guys who pay $20 or whatever to
> >> put a huge "FORD" decal on the back window of their Ford pickup truck.
> >
> > O.K., if presented with the choice between a Microshift and a Shimano derailleur, with a price difference of $6, which would you buy? They are different designs, different finishes, and one is specifically recommended for your existing group. See, e.g., https://bikesale.com/microshiftcentosfrontderailleur11-speeddoublebraze-onshimanocompatible.aspx versus https://tinyurl.com/z6589eha BTW, I made a mistake. It's a $5 spread. So, for five bucks, you would get some Chinese knock-off or the derailleur designed for your levers?
> >
> > And what possible advertising have I seen that would drive this choice? I know what I'm getting with the Shimano because I have the Ultegra version of the same derailleur on my Trek.
> In real life, if I needed a derailleur I'd probably look in my
> derailleur box. If none of those worked I'd probably bike to my closest
> LBS and get what they had in stock. I wouldn't worry about compatibility
> because friction is compatible with anything. Admittedly, I suppose
> they'd more likely have Shimano than Microshift in stock.
>
> But that's OK! Because the advertising you somehow didn't see on that
> page said this:
>
> "The Shimano FD-R7000 Front Derailleur offers lighter front shifting
> with a natural stroke feel. The derailleur's cage design is optimized to
> perform with disc brake road bikes, while multiple cable routing options
> and integrated cable tension adjustment allow for precise setup and easy
> adjustments. As part of Shimano's 105 R7000 series, this front
> derailleur is ideal for beginner road cyclists, combining great value
> with trickle-down technology from Shimano's top-tier groups."
>
> By golly, I _want_ lighter, natural stroke feel! I want optimized, and I
> want easy adjustments. But do I have to worry that I'm not a "beginner
> road cyclist?" Hmm. Maybe I'd better get Dura-Ace...
> >>>> Why do you care? Does Portland stage a Concourse d'Elegance for commuter
> >>>> bikes?
> >>>
> >>> No, but you know it will work if it is all part of the same product group, e.g. R7000 series. The components in a series are designed to work well together.
> Ah yes. It's designed so when you pull the cable, it moves the
> derailleur. So sophisticated!
> > Why would I want a Chinese off-brand when, for a mere $6, I can be sure the product will work and work really well? The finish is better, too. My Microshift 9sp RD was pretty rough.
> And with the Commuter Bike Concours d'Elegance fast approaching...
> >> Ah yes. If we ever meet in person, I'll try to remember to praise the
> >> finish of your commuter's front derailleur! I'll make you so proud! :-)
> >>
> >> Of course, by then you'll have a 1x system. I'll probably have to praise
> >> your radio controlled two speed hub instead.
> >
> > You're changing subjects and making things up. We're talking about a demonstrably better FD -- which is inconsistent with 1X, BTW.
> :-) That was my point, Jay! (IOW: whoosh!)
> >>>> Please, Jay. You keep trying to pretend bike-related advertising doesn't
> >>>> exist. That's just silly.
> >>>
> >>> I'm serious. Direct me to any bicycle advertising in publications of general circulation.
> >> I'm working by memory here, but try Outside magazine.
> >>> Have you ever seen a T.V. commercial for a bike? I haven't.
> >> I have, and I watch VERY little TV.
> >
> > What bike? I've never seen one, at least since Schwinn released the Stingray.
> OK, try this one:
> https://www.ispot.tv/ad/7PEu/giant-bicycles-the-ultimate-cycling-experience
>
> although this one's more fun:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfQOjl9sk9A
> >> It's not a particular advertisement, Jay. It's an industry. Its entire
> >> purpose is to influence purchases, and it thrives by doing just that. It
> >> astounds me that you pretend it has no effect.
> >
> > You see white whales everywhere and cannot point one out for me. This should be easy. Show me how evil Big Bike is bending the minds of witless consumers to buy useless stuff (by your definition as arbiter of what is "needed" or "useful").
> Disc brakes. Close clearance frames. Octalink. 122" high gears. Have you
> been asleep?
> >> What I know is, we discussed the close clearance frame trend here, just
> >> as enthusiastically as we're now discussing marketing. I don't remember
> >> what position you took, but I had people yelling at me, saying "less
> >> weight!" and "aerodynamics!" were the tremendous benefits of not being
> >> allowed to fit a 28mm tire.
> >>
> >> Now, just a few years later, people are yelling "You can fit 42mm
> >> tires!" to justify heavier and less aerodynamic disc brakes. But you're
> >> pretending marketing is not influential?
> >
> > I'm not pretending anything. I'm asking you to point out what advertising, influencing, etc., etc. affects the decision to buy a particular bike. I agree that advertising promotes brand recognition and brand confidence ....
>
> Why, thank you!
> > -- and I see absolutely no problem with that. But you have this weird conspiracy theory of advertising -- like Big Bike is out to make you look bad for owning a museum piece. If advertising is making everybody buy something, I would like to see the advertising.
> >
> > I'm going to ask some civilian friends why they bought what they bought.. One of my partners got a custom steel frame, a Specialized Ruby and a Trek Checkpoint ALR -- all great purchases, and I guaranty you that the steel frame was unadvertised.
> Look at that Giant ad again. Because bicycling really is all about
> racing and flying through the air on forest trails, isn't it? That's
> what everyone does, so everyone should buy the bikes shown in that ad.
> > Most shops are not into high fashion like Rene Herse -- which is more like couture than the off-the-rack. You have to plead with Jan Heine to actually own a Rene Herse.
> Rene Herse niche is way too "high" to be high fashion. You can't have a
> fashion if nobody can buy it.
>
> I've talked before about one of our area's main shops, where I went
> trying to help my friend buy a bike. This was just a few years ago.
>
> "28 mm tires? No, you can't put them on this bike. They won't work with
> the brakes."
>
> That shop was into fashion - i.e. then-current fashion. So were about
> four other shops we hit that day, driving hours to visit them.
>
> BTW, I'm sure that first shop would be selling disc brake gravel bikes
> with really fat tires today, because that's the now-current fashion.
> Except the shop has closed. It's too bad, because he was a nice guy,
> very helpful.

I'll stop now, but you have bad shops. I could always buy an OTC bike with standard drop brakes, cantis, CPs or what-have-you. Trek has always sold the 520, and during the real short-wheelbase days, Specialized was selling Sequoias and an Expedition touring bike. Miyata 1000s were selling like hotcakes -- your ST800 and my ST1000 were easily available in the late '80s and into the '90s. Racing and sport bikes got tighter, and you had to rummage around for something like the Trek 400 with standard drop brakes, but they were out there.