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tech / sci.math / Re: Natural numbers and vases

SubjectAuthor
* Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesRoss A. Finlayson
+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
|+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||`* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
|| +- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
|| `* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||  `* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||   +- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||   `* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||    `* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||     +- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||     `* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||      +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||      `* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       +* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesGus Gassmann
||       ||`* Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       || `- Re: Natural numbers and vasesGus Gassmann
||       |`* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesGus Gassmann
||       | +* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | ||+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||`* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | ||| `* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  +* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |`- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  +* Re: Natural numbers and vasesGus Gassmann
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  ||+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFromTheRafters
||       | |||  ||`- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesGus Gassmann
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  ||`- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesGus Gassmann
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  ||`- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesGus Gassmann
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  ||`- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesGus Gassmann
||       | |||  ||`- Re: Natural numbers and vasesChris M. Thomasson
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesGus Gassmann
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  ||+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesJim Burns
||       | |||  |||`* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  ||| +* Re: Natural numbers and vasesJim Burns
||       | |||  ||| |`* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  ||| | +* Re: Natural numbers and vasesJim Burns
||       | |||  ||| | |`* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  ||| | | +* Re: Natural numbers and vasesJim Burns
||       | |||  ||| | | |`* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  ||| | | | `- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  ||| | | `- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  ||| | `- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  ||| `- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  ||`* Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  || `- Re: Natural numbers and vasesChet Hirasi
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  ||`- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesGus Gassmann
||       | |||  ||`- Re: Natural numbers and vasesChet Hirasi
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  ||`* Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  || `* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  ||  `* Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  ||   +* Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  ||   |`* Re: Natural numbers and vasesFredJeffries
||       | |||  ||   | `- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  ||   `* Re: Natural numbers and vasesChris M. Thomasson
||       | |||  ||    `* Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  ||     +* Re: Natural numbers and vasesChris M. Thomasson
||       | |||  ||     |`- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  ||     `* Re: Natural numbers and vasesChris M. Thomasson
||       | |||  ||      `* Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  ||       `* Re: Natural numbers and vasesChris M. Thomasson
||       | |||  ||        +* Re: Natural numbers and vasesChris M. Thomasson
||       | |||  ||        |`- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  ||        `- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  ||`- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  ||`- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  ||+- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  ||`* Re: Natural numbers and vasesChris M. Thomasson
||       | |||  || +* Re: Natural numbers and vasesFromTheRafters
||       | |||  || `* Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesGus Gassmann
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesGus Gassmann
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesGus Gassmann
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |`* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vaseszelos...@gmail.com
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vaseszelos...@gmail.com
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vaseszelos...@gmail.com
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vaseszelos...@gmail.com
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vaseszelos...@gmail.com
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vaseszelos...@gmail.com
||       | |||  `- Re: Natural numbers and vaseszelos...@gmail.com
||       | ||`- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |`* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | +- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | `* Re: Natural numbers and vasesJim Burns
||       `- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
|+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesRoss A. Finlayson
|`- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesChris M. Thomasson
+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesMostowski Collapse
`- Re: Natural numbers and vasesSocratis T.n.p.

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Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: zelos.ma...@gmail.com (zelos...@gmail.com)
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 by: zelos...@gmail.com - Thu, 30 Jun 2022 05:52 UTC

onsdag 29 juni 2022 kl. 18:28:27 UTC+2 skrev WM:
> zelos...@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 29. Juni 2022 um 07:17:10 UTC+2:
>
> > "accessible" has no meaning in mathematics.
> "accessible" has no meaning in matheology, but matheology has no meaning in mathematics.
>
> Regards, WM
it has no meaning in MATHEMATICS.

You are doing "matheology" and crank stuff. In REAL mathematics, your accessible has no meaning.

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 06:10:18 -0400
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 by: FromTheRafters - Thu, 30 Jun 2022 10:10 UTC

WM used his keyboard to write :
> FromTheRafters schrieb am Mittwoch, 29. Juni 2022 um 22:59:30 UTC+2:
>> WM brought next idea :
>>> William schrieb am Mittwoch, 29. Juni 2022 um 19:42:39 UTC+2:
>>>> On Wednesday, June 29, 2022 at 2:33:43 PM UTC-3, WM wrote:
>>>> ∩{E(k) : k ∈ ℕ_def}| = ℵ₀ .
>>>>>> Nope |N_def if finite so it cannot be "all Peano numbers".
>>>>> It has no upper bound
>>>> Piffle. The subset of numbers that can be written down has an upper bound
>>>
>>> No.
>>>
>>> Try to write it. I will surpass you.
>> With a *different* finite set
>
> satisfying the same definition.

Still, a different set.

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: askaske...@gmail.com (WM)
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 by: WM - Thu, 30 Jun 2022 13:54 UTC

William schrieb am Donnerstag, 30. Juni 2022 um 01:25:26 UTC+2:
> |N_def is a set. A set does not change.

ℕ_def is many sets, depending on what elements are defined. It is a collection.
Compare the set of known prime numbers. It is a set now but another set next year. It is a potentially infinite collection.

Further, if ℕ was endless, then ∩{E(k) : k ∈ ℕ} could not be empty, because every endsegment which is not the last one cannot make the intersection empty because there is always another endsegment reducing the intersection further. This would not be possible if the intersection was empty already.

Conclusion: An endless set of endsegments cannot have an empty intersection ut only a shrinking one, forever.

Regards, WM

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: askaske...@gmail.com (WM)
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 by: WM - Thu, 30 Jun 2022 14:00 UTC

FromTheRafters schrieb am Donnerstag, 30. Juni 2022 um 12:10:35 UTC+2:
> WM used his keyboard to write :
> > FromTheRafters schrieb am Mittwoch, 29. Juni 2022 um 22:59:30 UTC+2:
> >>>> Piffle. The subset of numbers that can be written down has an upper bound
> >>>
> >>> No.
> >>>
> >>> Try to write it. I will surpass you.
> >> With a *different* finite set
> >
> > satisfying the same definition.
> Still, a different set.

Of course. ℕ_def is a potentially infinite collection.

But if ℕ has no last element, then the intersection ∩{E(k) : k ∈ ℕ} cannot be empty. Up to every endsegment E(k) it is not empty, because the successor endsegment E(k+1) will reduce it. The empty set hoewver cannot be reduced. Since every natnumber of the endless sequence has a successor the intersection will never be empty.

Regards, WM

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: wpihug...@gmail.com (William)
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 by: William - Thu, 30 Jun 2022 14:20 UTC

On Thursday, June 30, 2022 at 10:54:29 AM UTC-3, WM wrote:
> William schrieb am Donnerstag, 30. Juni 2022 um 01:25:26 UTC+2:
> > |N_def is a set. A set does not change.
> ℕ_def is many sets,

A change in definition. N_def was defined by you to be the subset of |N that would be written down during the life of the universe.
Does not much matter as |N_def or one of the many sets that you call |N_def is a subset of |N and

∀k∈N:|N \{1,2,3,...,k}|=ℵ0.

and

| |N\|N | = 0

so we do not need |N_def

> Further, if ℕ was endless, then ∩{E(k) : k ∈ ℕ} could not be empty, because every endsegment which is not the last one cannot make the intersection empty

Piffle. The intersection does not change. The set of endsegments does not change. True there is no one endsegment which makes the intersection empty. There is no one element that makes |N infinite.

--
William Hughes

Re: Natural numbers and vases

<t9kptb$3oj$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 13:26:50 -0500
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 by: sergi o - Thu, 30 Jun 2022 18:26 UTC

On 6/30/2022 8:54 AM, WM wrote:
> William schrieb am Donnerstag, 30. Juni 2022 um 01:25:26 UTC+2:
>> |N_def is a set. A set does not change.
>
> ℕ_def is many sets, depending on what elements are defined. It is a collection.

So ℕ_def is a vague collection of many sets ?

> Compare the set of known prime numbers. It is a set now but another set next year. It is a potentially infinite collection.

you left out the date

set of known prime numbers as of this date, at 8:00:00am UTC

>
> Further, if ℕ was endless, then ∩{E(k) : k ∈ ℕ} could not be empty,

Wrong. Show there is any elements at all in that intersection. You cannot, Fail.

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 13:32:08 -0500
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 by: sergi o - Thu, 30 Jun 2022 18:32 UTC

On 6/30/2022 9:00 AM, WM wrote:
> FromTheRafters schrieb am Donnerstag, 30. Juni 2022 um 12:10:35 UTC+2:
>> WM used his keyboard to write :
>>> FromTheRafters schrieb am Mittwoch, 29. Juni 2022 um 22:59:30 UTC+2:
>
>>>>>> Piffle. The subset of numbers that can be written down has an upper bound
>>>>>
>>>>> No.
>>>>>
>>>>> Try to write it. I will surpass you.
>>>> With a *different* finite set
>>>
>>> satisfying the same definition.
>> Still, a different set.
>
> Of course. ℕ_def is a potentially infinite collection.

so ℕ_def is not a set, but a collection. Glad you cleared that up.

>
> But if ℕ has no last element, then the intersection ∩{E(k) : k ∈ ℕ} cannot be empty.

then You, WM go ahead and prove there is one or more elements in the intersection of all endsegments.

>
> Regards, WM

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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From: james.g....@att.net (Jim Burns)
Newsgroups: sci.math
Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 14:46:48 -0400
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 by: Jim Burns - Thu, 30 Jun 2022 18:46 UTC

On 6/30/2022 9:54 AM, WM wrote:

> ℕ_def is many sets,
> depending on what elements are defined.
> It is a collection.

Whatever ℕ_def is, it is not anything else.

To pretend that ℕ_def is this, but, no!
it is really that,
will produce the "contradictions" you want.

However,
the "contradictions" only _look_ like
contradictions because you've changed the meaning
of what you're saying.

However,
that is not a problem with anything we're saying.
If you change what you're saying
("No! It is really that")
you're saying something different.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation

> ℕ_def is many sets,
> depending on what elements are defined.
> It is a collection.

You have not given any description of
| what elements are defined
by any reasonable stretch of the imagination.

What you have given instead is a description of
| an element that could be defined, in principle,
| ignoring the finiteness of observable universe and
| (presumably) of the possible definers.

That's fine.
Nothing wrong with definable-in-principle.
However, that makes ℕ_def = ℕ and
the intersection of all its end segments = {}

> ℕ_def is many sets,
> depending on what elements are defined.
> It is a collection.

It is very important to distinguish between
a collection
and
one of the members of that collection.

It is certainly possible to define
the collection of all the sets
up to _something_
such that each split has
a step i,i+1 from before to after.

We've been here before.
It's the set {FISON} of all FISONs.
ℕ = ⋃{FISON}
the set of all k definable-in-principle.

where k is definable-in-principle iff
a collection from 1 to k exists of
definable-in-principle things
such that it is always possible
to '+1' step across any split.

> Conclusion:
> An endless set of endsegments cannot have
> an empty intersection
> ut only a shrinking one, forever.

For a set ENDS of end segments,
either something is in each end segment in ENDS,
or it is not-in one or more of the end segments
in ENDS.

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: askaske...@gmail.com (WM)
Injection-Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 19:40:50 +0000
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 by: WM - Thu, 30 Jun 2022 19:40 UTC

William schrieb am Donnerstag, 30. Juni 2022 um 16:20:29 UTC+2:
> On Thursday, June 30, 2022 at 10:54:29 AM UTC-3, WM wrote:
> > William schrieb am Donnerstag, 30. Juni 2022 um 01:25:26 UTC+2:
> > > |N_def is a set. A set does not change.
> > ℕ_def is many sets,
> A change in definition. N_def was defined by you to be the subset of |N that would be written down during the life of the universe.

A possible definition, but if the universe lives longer, the collection gets bigger,
> Does not much matter as |N_def or one of the many sets that you call |N_def is a subset of |N and
>
> ∀k∈N:|N \{1,2,3,...,k}|=ℵ0.

If this were right, then you could not distinguish ℵo natural numbers. Every attempt would fail, because they follow upon every defined number..

> > Further, if ℕ was endless, then ∩{E(k) : k ∈ ℕ} could not be empty, because every endsegment which is not the last one cannot make the intersection empty
> Piffle. The intersection does not change.

The intersection can be calculated for every initial set of endsegments:
∀k ∈ ℕ: ∩{E(1), E(2), ..., E(k)} = E(k) /\ |E(k)| = ℵ₀.

Without a last one the intersetion is not empty.

> The set of endsegments does not change.

But the intersection can be calculated for every initial segment of definable endsegments .

> True there is no one endsegment which makes the intersection empty.

Then it cannot get empty. Because the intersection can only be changed by an endsegment
∀k ∈ ℕ: E(k+1) = E(k) \ {k}
No magic!

Regards, WM

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: askaske...@gmail.com (WM)
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 by: WM - Thu, 30 Jun 2022 19:45 UTC

Jim Burns schrieb am Donnerstag, 30. Juni 2022 um 20:46:59 UTC+2:
> On 6/30/2022 9:54 AM, WM wrote:
>
> > ℕ_def is many sets,
> > depending on what elements are defined.
> > It is a collection.
> Whatever ℕ_def is, it is not anything else.
>
> To pretend that ℕ_def is this, but, no!
> it is really that,
> will produce the "contradictions" you want.

No, it is a potentially infinite collection.

> You have not given any description of
> | what elements are defined
> by any reasonable stretch of the imagination.

Definition: A natural number is "identified" or (individually) "defined" or "instantiated" if it can be communicated such that sender and receiver understand the same and can link it by a finite initial segment to the origin 0. All other natural numbers are called dark natural numbers. https://www.hs-augsburg.de/~mueckenh/Transfinity/Transfinity/pdf
>

> However, that makes ℕ_def = ℕ and
> the intersection of all its end segments = {}

If ℕ has no last element, then the intersection ∩{E(k) : k ∈ ℕ} cannot be empty. Up to every endsegment E(k) it is not empty, because the successor endsegment E(k+1) will reduce it.

Regards, WM

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 14:51:48 -0500
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 by: sergi o - Thu, 30 Jun 2022 19:51 UTC

On 6/30/2022 2:40 PM, WM wrote:
> William schrieb am Donnerstag, 30. Juni 2022 um 16:20:29 UTC+2:
>> On Thursday, June 30, 2022 at 10:54:29 AM UTC-3, WM wrote:
>>> William schrieb am Donnerstag, 30. Juni 2022 um 01:25:26 UTC+2:
>>>> |N_def is a set. A set does not change.
>>> ℕ_def is many sets,
>> A change in definition. N_def was defined by you to be the subset of |N that would be written down during the life of the universe.
>
> A possible definition, but if the universe lives longer, the collection gets bigger,

so N_def has multiple meanings. it can, or cannot, be a set, and it may, or may not be, a collection of sets, or a collection of collections

This means N_def must be further and fully defined in every use.

N_def on it own is totally Bogus, it is a Dark N_def.

>
> Regards, WM

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: wpihug...@gmail.com (William)
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 by: William - Thu, 30 Jun 2022 20:14 UTC

On Thursday, June 30, 2022 at 4:40:59 PM UTC-3, WM wrote:
> William schrieb am Donnerstag, 30. Juni 2022 um 16:20:29 UTC+2:
\ > > ∀k∈N:|N \{1,2,3,...,k}|=ℵ0.
> If this were right, then you could not distinguish ℵo natural numbers.

Piffle. This is true by simple induction on the Peano set |N. Recall induction is valid ∀k∈|N.

--
William Hughes

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: wpihug...@gmail.com (William)
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 by: William - Thu, 30 Jun 2022 20:21 UTC

"identified" or (individually) "defined" or "instantiated" i

"identified", "defined" and "instantiated" are three more of you many many many ways of saying "is writtend down",

>... [it] can link it by a finite initial segment to the origin 0.

By simple induction that is all elements of the Peano set |N.

> All other natural numbers are called dark natural numbers

There are no other natural numbers..

--
William Hughes

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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From: james.g....@att.net (Jim Burns)
Newsgroups: sci.math
Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 17:34:34 -0400
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 by: Jim Burns - Thu, 30 Jun 2022 21:34 UTC

On 6/30/2022 3:45 PM, WM wrote:
> Jim Burns schrieb
> am Donnerstag, 30. Juni 2022 um 20:46:59 UTC+2:

>> You have not given any description of
>> | what elements are defined
>> by any reasonable stretch of the imagination.
>
> Definition:
> A natural number is

....is...

> A natural number is "identified" or (individually)
> "defined" or "instantiated" if it can be

....can be...

> "defined" or "instantiated" if it can be communicated
> such that sender and receiver understand the same
> and can link it by a finite initial segment to the
> origin 0. All other natural numbers are called
> dark natural numbers.
> https://www.hs-augsburg.de/~mueckenh/Transfinity/Transfinity/pdf

So, what I just said. Thank you for your assistance.

What you have given instead is a description of
| an element that could be defined, in principle,
| ignoring the finiteness of observable universe and
| (presumably) of the possible definers.

That's fine.
Nothing wrong with definable-in-principle.
However, that makes ℕ_def = ℕ and
the intersection of all its end segments = {}

When I define a natural number, I include a description
of the finite initial segment linking it to the origin.
| Each split of ⟨0,...,k⟩ has a step i,i+1
| from before the split to after the split.

k is what you call a defined or identified or
instantiated natural number.
k is what everyone else calls a natural number.

That description of ⟨0,...,k⟩ is enough for us to be
able to derive the Peano axioms, yes, with induction,
which are widely recognized as a description of
the natural numbers.

>> However, that makes ℕ_def = ℕ and
>> the intersection of all its end segments = {}
>
> If ℕ has no last element, then the intersection
> ∩{E(k) : k ∈ ℕ} cannot be empty.

If the intersection of all end segments
has elements in it,
then the collection of all end segments
has end segments not-in it.

Please notice the "all".

> Up to every endsegment E(k) it is not empty, because
> the successor endsegment E(k+1) will reduce it.

∩{E(j) : E(j) =< E(k) } is not ∩{E(k) : k ∈ ℕ}

But also
{E(j) : E(j) =< E(k) } is not {E(k) : k ∈ ℕ}

This is not anything that needs fixing.

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: askaske...@gmail.com (WM)
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 by: WM - Thu, 30 Jun 2022 21:51 UTC

William schrieb am Donnerstag, 30. Juni 2022 um 22:14:43 UTC+2:
> On Thursday, June 30, 2022 at 4:40:59 PM UTC-3, WM wrote:
> > William schrieb am Donnerstag, 30. Juni 2022 um 16:20:29 UTC+2:
> \
> > > ∀k∈N:|N \{1,2,3,...,k}|=ℵ0.
> > If this were right, then you could not distinguish ℵo natural numbers.
> Piffle. This is true by simple induction on the Peano set |N. Recall induction is valid

only for the finite collection which is followed by an ℵo-infinite set of natnumbers which cannot be distinguished because they are following upon every definable number. So they are undefinable.

Regards, WM

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: wpihug...@gmail.com (William)
Injection-Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 22:24:42 +0000
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 by: William - Thu, 30 Jun 2022 22:24 UTC

On Thursday, June 30, 2022 at 6:51:30 PM UTC-3, WM wrote:
> William schrieb am Donnerstag, 30. Juni 2022 um 22:14:43 UTC+2:
> > On Thursday, June 30, 2022 at 4:40:59 PM UTC-3, WM wrote:
> > > William schrieb am Donnerstag, 30. Juni 2022 um 16:20:29 UTC+2:

> > > > ∀k∈N:|N \{1,2,3,...,k}|=ℵ0.
> > > If this were right, then you could not distinguish ℵo natural numbers.
> > Piffle. This is true by simple induction on the Peano set |N. Recall induction is valid ∀k∈N
> only for the finite collection

Piffle. Induction is valid ∀k∈|N

--
William Hughes

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 17:30:32 -0500
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 by: sergi o - Thu, 30 Jun 2022 22:30 UTC

On 6/30/2022 4:51 PM, WM wrote:
> William schrieb am Donnerstag, 30. Juni 2022 um 22:14:43 UTC+2:
>> On Thursday, June 30, 2022 at 4:40:59 PM UTC-3, WM wrote:
>>> William schrieb am Donnerstag, 30. Juni 2022 um 16:20:29 UTC+2:
>> \
>>>> ∀k∈N:|N \{1,2,3,...,k}|=ℵ0.
>>> If this were right, then you could not distinguish ℵo natural numbers.
>> Piffle. This is true by simple induction on the Peano set |N. Recall induction is valid
>
> only for the finite collection which is followed by an ℵo-infinite set of natnumbers which cannot be distinguished because they are following upon every definable number. So they are undefinable.
>
> Regards, WM

your "definable" is totally unworkable, and silly. Yet it is required for you to think your dark numbers exist.

go back to your definition of "definable", and read the first few sentences slowly, and you will find the glaring error, right there.

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 19:05:18 -0500
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 by: sergi o - Fri, 1 Jul 2022 00:05 UTC

On 6/30/2022 4:34 PM, Jim Burns wrote:
> On 6/30/2022 3:45 PM, WM wrote:
>> Jim Burns schrieb
>> am Donnerstag, 30. Juni 2022 um 20:46:59 UTC+2:
>
>>> You have not given any description of
>>> | what elements are defined
>>> by any reasonable stretch of the imagination.
>>
>> Definition:
>> A natural number is
>
> ...is...
>
>> A natural number is "identified" or (individually)
>> "defined" or "instantiated" if it can be
>
> ...can be...
>
>> "defined" or "instantiated" if it can be communicated
>> such that sender

The sender must know the entire "dark" number in order to send it. The sender cannot make stuff up.

However, all Dark numbers have no digits at all.

therefore there is no sender that can send a Dark number anywhere, no number/no digits.

which proves, there are no Dark Numbers.

>>and receiver understand the same
>> and can link it by a finite initial segment to the
>> origin 0. All other natural numbers are called
>> dark natural numbers.
>> https://www.hs-augsburg.de/~mueckenh/Transfinity/Transfinity/pdf
>
> So, what I just said. Thank you for your assistance.
>
> What you have given instead is a description of
> | an element that could be defined, in principle,
> | ignoring the finiteness of observable universe and
> | (presumably) of the possible definers.
>
> That's fine.
> Nothing wrong with definable-in-principle.
> However, that makes ℕ_def = ℕ and
> the intersection of all its end segments = {}
>
>
> When I define a natural number, I include a description
> of the finite initial segment linking it to the origin.
> | Each split of ⟨0,...,k⟩ has a step i,i+1
> | from before the split to after the split.
>
> k is what you call a defined or identified or
> instantiated natural number.
> k is what everyone else calls a natural  number.
>
> That description of ⟨0,...,k⟩ is enough for us to be
> able to derive the Peano axioms, yes, with induction,
> which are widely recognized as a description of
> the natural numbers.
>
>>> However, that makes ℕ_def = ℕ and
>>> the intersection of all its end segments = {}
>>
>> If ℕ has no last element, then the intersection
>> ∩{E(k) : k ∈ ℕ} cannot be empty.
>
> If the intersection of all end segments
> has elements in it,
> then the collection of all end segments
> has end segments not-in it.
>
> Please notice the "all".
>
>> Up to every endsegment E(k) it is not empty, because
>> the successor endsegment E(k+1) will reduce it.
>
> ∩{E(j) : E(j) =< E(k) } is not ∩{E(k) : k ∈ ℕ}
>
> But also
> {E(j) : E(j) =< E(k) } is not {E(k) : k ∈ ℕ}
>
> This is not anything that needs fixing.
>

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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From: james.g....@att.net (Jim Burns)
Newsgroups: sci.math
Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 20:47:16 -0400
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 by: Jim Burns - Fri, 1 Jul 2022 00:47 UTC

On 6/29/2022 1:45 PM, WM wrote:

> The Peano set has all last numbers
> but no last last number.

The Peano set contains one and only one subset (itself)
which is closed under k --> k+1 and contains 0.

What is the subset S of the Peano set which is NOT in
the intersection of all Peano-set end-segments?

S contains 0.

| Assume that k is in S.
| There must be some end segment E which
| k is not in.
| | E\⟨0,...,k+1⟩ is an end segment.
| k+1 is not in E\⟨0,...,k+1⟩
| k+1 is in S

Thus,
if k is in S, then k+1 is in S

S is closed under k --> k+1

.... _and_ S contains 0

Therefore,
the only subset which S can be is the whole Peano set.

S is the subset of the Peano set which is NOT in
the intersection of all Peano-set end-segments.
S is the whole Peano set.

What is the subset of the Peano set which IS in
the intersection of all Peano-set end-segments?
It is {}

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: askaske...@gmail.com (WM)
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 by: WM - Fri, 1 Jul 2022 10:57 UTC

zelos...@gmail.com schrieb am Donnerstag, 30. Juni 2022 um 07:52:47 UTC+2:
In REAL mathematics, your accessible has no meaning.

Then try to understand the meaning of the property: "Has ℵo not yet distinguished successors." And try to find out where and when all of them will have been distinguished.

Regards, WM

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: askaske...@gmail.com (WM)
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 by: WM - Fri, 1 Jul 2022 11:00 UTC

William schrieb am Freitag, 1. Juli 2022 um 00:24:51 UTC+2:
> On Thursday, June 30, 2022 at 6:51:30 PM UTC-3, WM wrote:
> > William schrieb am Donnerstag, 30. Juni 2022 um 22:14:43 UTC+2:

> > > Piffle. This is true by simple induction on the Peano set |N. Recall induction is valid ∀k∈N
> > only for the finite collection
> Piffle. Induction is valid ∀k∈|N

Every k∈|N has ℵo not yet distinguished successors. When and where will all have been distinguished?

Regards, WM

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: askaske...@gmail.com (WM)
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 by: WM - Fri, 1 Jul 2022 11:09 UTC

Jim Burns schrieb am Freitag, 1. Juli 2022 um 02:47:25 UTC+2:
> On 6/29/2022 1:45 PM, WM wrote:
>
> > The Peano set has all last numbers
> > but no last last number.
> The Peano set contains one and only one subset (itself)
> which is closed under k --> k+1 and contains 0.

Every k∈|N has ℵo not yet distinguished successors. When and where will all have been distinguished?
>
> Thus,
> if k is in S, then k+1 is in S

If k has ℵo not yet distinguished successors, then k+1 has ℵo not yet distinguished successors. When will all of them be distinguished?
>
> S is closed under k --> k+1
>
> ... _and_ S contains 0
>
> Therefore,
> the only subset which S can be is the whole Peano set.

If k has ℵo not yet distinguished successors, then k+1 has ℵo not yet distinguished successors. When will all of them be distinguished?

Regards, WM

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: franz.fr...@gmail.com (Fritz Feldhase)
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 by: Fritz Feldhase - Fri, 1 Jul 2022 12:20 UTC

On Friday, July 1, 2022 at 1:09:21 PM UTC+2, WM wrote:

> When will all of them be distinguished?

On Judgment Day?

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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From: nom...@afraid.org (FromTheRafters)
Newsgroups: sci.math
Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2022 08:49:15 -0400
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 by: FromTheRafters - Fri, 1 Jul 2022 12:49 UTC

WM wrote on 7/1/2022 :
> William schrieb am Freitag, 1. Juli 2022 um 00:24:51 UTC+2:
>> On Thursday, June 30, 2022 at 6:51:30 PM UTC-3, WM wrote:
>>> William schrieb am Donnerstag, 30. Juni 2022 um 22:14:43 UTC+2:
>
>>>> Piffle. This is true by simple induction on the Peano set |N. Recall
>>>> induction is valid ∀k∈N
>>> only for the finite collection
>> Piffle. Induction is valid ∀k∈|N
>
> Every k∈|N has ℵo not yet distinguished successors.

Try proving that without using induction.

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: horand.g...@gmail.com (Gus Gassmann)
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 by: Gus Gassmann - Fri, 1 Jul 2022 13:54 UTC

On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 09:49:34 UTC-3, FromTheRafters wrote:
> WM wrote on 7/1/2022 :
[...]
> > Every k∈|N has ℵo not yet distinguished successors.
> Try proving that without using induction.

Even more to the point, try proving it if n is a "dark number".

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