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tech / sci.math / Re: Natural numbers and vases

SubjectAuthor
* Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesRoss A. Finlayson
+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
|+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||`* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
|| +- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
|| `* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||  `* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||   +- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||   `* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||    `* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||     +- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||     `* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||      +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||      `* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       +* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesGus Gassmann
||       ||`* Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       || `- Re: Natural numbers and vasesGus Gassmann
||       |`* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesGus Gassmann
||       | +* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | ||+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||`* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | ||| `* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  +* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |`- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  +* Re: Natural numbers and vasesGus Gassmann
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  ||+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFromTheRafters
||       | |||  ||`- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesGus Gassmann
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  ||`- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesGus Gassmann
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  ||`- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesGus Gassmann
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  ||`- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesGus Gassmann
||       | |||  ||`- Re: Natural numbers and vasesChris M. Thomasson
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesGus Gassmann
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  ||+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesJim Burns
||       | |||  |||`* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  ||| +* Re: Natural numbers and vasesJim Burns
||       | |||  ||| |`* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  ||| | +* Re: Natural numbers and vasesJim Burns
||       | |||  ||| | |`* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  ||| | | +* Re: Natural numbers and vasesJim Burns
||       | |||  ||| | | |`* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  ||| | | | `- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  ||| | | `- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  ||| | `- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  ||| `- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  ||`* Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  || `- Re: Natural numbers and vasesChet Hirasi
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  ||`- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesGus Gassmann
||       | |||  ||`- Re: Natural numbers and vasesChet Hirasi
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  ||`* Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  || `* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  ||  `* Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  ||   +* Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  ||   |`* Re: Natural numbers and vasesFredJeffries
||       | |||  ||   | `- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  ||   `* Re: Natural numbers and vasesChris M. Thomasson
||       | |||  ||    `* Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  ||     +* Re: Natural numbers and vasesChris M. Thomasson
||       | |||  ||     |`- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  ||     `* Re: Natural numbers and vasesChris M. Thomasson
||       | |||  ||      `* Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  ||       `* Re: Natural numbers and vasesChris M. Thomasson
||       | |||  ||        +* Re: Natural numbers and vasesChris M. Thomasson
||       | |||  ||        |`- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  ||        `- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  ||`- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  ||`- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  ||+- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  ||`* Re: Natural numbers and vasesChris M. Thomasson
||       | |||  || +* Re: Natural numbers and vasesFromTheRafters
||       | |||  || `* Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesGus Gassmann
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesGus Gassmann
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesGus Gassmann
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWilliam
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  |`* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vaseszelos...@gmail.com
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vaseszelos...@gmail.com
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vaseszelos...@gmail.com
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vaseszelos...@gmail.com
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vaseszelos...@gmail.com
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
||       | |||  +- Re: Natural numbers and vaseszelos...@gmail.com
||       | |||  `- Re: Natural numbers and vaseszelos...@gmail.com
||       | ||`- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | |`* Re: Natural numbers and vasesWM
||       | +- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
||       | `* Re: Natural numbers and vasesJim Burns
||       `- Re: Natural numbers and vasessergio
|+- Re: Natural numbers and vasesRoss A. Finlayson
|`- Re: Natural numbers and vasesFritz Feldhase
+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesChris M. Thomasson
+* Re: Natural numbers and vasesMostowski Collapse
`- Re: Natural numbers and vasesSocratis T.n.p.

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Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: wpihug...@gmail.com (William)
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 by: William - Tue, 31 May 2022 15:53 UTC

On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 9:54:30 AM UTC-3, WM wrote:

I see you have given up trying to defend "fully symmetric".

> the number of O's is infinite and will never become zero.

"Never", i.e. If the number of exchanges is finite. . Note that any finite number of exchanges (even a really really really big finite number) is infinitely far from "all exchanges are done". So, looking what happens at a finite number of exchanges tells you noting about what happens when "all exchanges are done"

--
William Hughes

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: franz.fr...@gmail.com (Fritz Feldhase)
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 by: Fritz Feldhase - Tue, 31 May 2022 15:55 UTC

On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 4:23:37 PM UTC+2, Jim Burns wrote:
>
> Therefore,
> _after all swaps_

all Os can be found in your asshole.

Or in WM's asshole. Hard to tell...

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: franz.fr...@gmail.com (Fritz Feldhase)
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 by: Fritz Feldhase - Tue, 31 May 2022 16:05 UTC

On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 5:53:49 PM UTC+2, William wrote:

Now that idiotic nonsense from you too?

What's the matter with you guys? Spent too much time with WM's psychotic shit?

> is infinitely far from "all exchanges are done". So, looking what happens at a finite number of exchanges tells you noting about what happens when "all exchanges are done".

That's just mumbo-jumbo.

"happens", "are are done", etc.

You are talking about a supertask. Not math, but philosophy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supertask

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: askaske...@gmail.com (WM)
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 by: WM - Tue, 31 May 2022 20:19 UTC

William schrieb am Dienstag, 31. Mai 2022 um 17:53:49 UTC+2:
> On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 9:54:30 AM UTC-3, WM wrote:
>
> I see you have given up trying to defend "fully symmetric".
>
> > the number of O's is infinite and will never become zero.
>
> "Never", i.e. If the number of exchanges is finite. . Note that any finite number of exchanges (even a really really really big finite number) is infinitely far from "all exchanges are done".

That is true. In fact never all exchanges will have been done. But my argument is valid even in case the task could have been finished.

> So, looking what happens at a finite number of exchanges tells you noting about what happens when "all exchanges are done"

Even then exchanging an X and an O from X.....O to O.....X will not make any of them disappear and will not make any of them multiply. It will simply maintain an X and an O. I would never have believed before that matheologians are dishonest enough (because not even an earthworm can be stupid enough) to contradict this simple fact.

By the way Cantor did not claim that after all steps the fractions would be enumerated. But he claimd that this could be accomplished by all finite numbers.

Regards, WM

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: askaske...@gmail.com (WM)
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 by: WM - Tue, 31 May 2022 20:26 UTC

Jim Burns schrieb am Dienstag, 31. Mai 2022 um 16:23:37 UTC+2:
> On 5/31/2022 8:58 AM, WM wrote:
> > Jim Burns schrieb

> > Never an O will get lost. That is fact too.
> > You seem to accept only the first one.
> > Why?
> No O remains in a place it can leave --
> _after all swaps_
>
> But each place is a place it can leave.
>
> Therefore,
> _after all swaps_
> no O remains anywhere.

Not at a definable place. Yes, that's right.
>
> On the other hand,
> _up to any swap_
> it's not true that
> each place [up to there] which an O can get to
> is a place it can get away from [up to there].
>
each place which an O can get to is a place it can get away from.

> It's the difference between infinity and
> a reallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreally large number.

Exchanging an X and an O from X.....O to O.....X will not make any of them disappear and will not make any of them multiply. It will simply maintain an X and an O. Forever and in infinity. Do you agree?

Regards, WM

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
Date: Tue, 31 May 2022 16:59:32 -0400
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 by: Jim Burns - Tue, 31 May 2022 20:59 UTC

On 5/31/2022 4:26 PM, WM wrote:
> Jim Burns schrieb
> am Dienstag, 31. Mai 2022 um 16:23:37 UTC+2:
>> On 5/31/2022 8:58 AM, WM wrote:

>>> Never an O will get lost. That is fact too.
>>> You seem to accept only the first one.
>>> Why?
>>
>> No O remains in a place it can leave --
>> _after all swaps_
>>
>> But each place is a place it can leave.
>>
>> Therefore,
>> _after all swaps_
>> no O remains anywhere.
>
> Not at a definable place. Yes, that's right.

The X's in first column of definables
are enough to cover X's and O's in
the whole matrix of definables.

The moral of this story is that
some collections can be matched to a proper subset.

>> On the other hand,
>> _up to any swap_
>> it's not true that
>> each place [up to there] which an O can get to
>> is a place it can get away from [up to there].
>
> each place which an O can get to is
> a place it can get away from.

No. _Not_ each place.
Not if we limit it to places _up to_ some place.

It's the difference between infinity and
a reallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreally large number.

>> It's the difference between infinity and
>> a reallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreally large number.

Re: Natural numbers and vases

<b93be345-7443-406c-94d3-9e1004a9cd25n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: wpihug...@gmail.com (William)
Injection-Date: Tue, 31 May 2022 21:54:50 +0000
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 by: William - Tue, 31 May 2022 21:54 UTC

On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 5:19:13 PM UTC-3, WM wrote:
> William schrieb am Dienstag, 31. Mai 2022 um 17:53:49 UTC+2:
> > On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 9:54:30 AM UTC-3, WM wrote:
> >
> > I see you have given up trying to defend "fully symmetric".
> >
> > > the number of O's is infinite and will never become zero.
> >
> > "Never", i.e. If the number of exchanges is finite. . Note that any finite number of exchanges (even a really really really big finite number) is infinitely far from "all exchanges are done".
> That is true. In fact never all exchanges will have been done. But my argument is valid even in case the task could have been finished.
> > So, looking what happens at a finite number of exchanges tells you noting about what happens when "all exchanges are done"
> Even them exchanging

At the state "all exchanges are done" there is no exchanging. And, contrary to intuition, you do not get to the state "all exchanges are done" by doing exchanges.

--
William Hughes

Re: Natural numbers and vases

<d3385b72-68cc-4b27-8e0f-30e536e9a40bn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: zelos.ma...@gmail.com (zelos...@gmail.com)
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 by: zelos...@gmail.com - Wed, 1 Jun 2022 09:16 UTC

tisdag 31 maj 2022 kl. 14:52:56 UTC+2 skrev WM:
> FromTheRafters schrieb am Montag, 30. Mai 2022 um 20:09:53 UTC+2:
> > WM explained on 5/30/2022 :
> > > Jim Burns schrieb am Sonntag, 29. Mai 2022 um 23:33:51 UTC+2:
> > >>
> > >> This simple fact?
> > >>
> > >> 1/1:1/1 1/2:2/1 1/3:4/1 1/4:7/1 ...
> > >> 2/1:3/1 2/2:5/1 2/3:8/1 2/4:12/1 ...
> > >> 3/1:6/1 3/2:9/1 3/3:13/1 3/4:18/1 ...
> > >> 4/1:10/1 4/2:14/1 4/3:19/1 4/4:25/1 ...
> > >> 5/1:15/1 5/2:20/1 5/3:26/1 5/4:33/1 ...
> > >> 6/1:21/1 6/2:27/1 6/3:34/1 6/4:42/1 ...
> > >> 7/1:28/1 7/2:35/1 7/3:43/1 7/4:52/1 ...
> > >> 8/1:36/1 8/2:44/1 8/3:53/1 8/4:63/1 ...
> > >> 9/1:45/1 9/2:54/1 9/3:64/1 9/4:75/1 ...
> > >> ... ... ... ...
> > >
> > > You need the ... in order to veil the fact that all your indices have aleph_0
> > > successors.
> > Veil? It rather points out the fact.
> It feigns that all were definable.
>
> Regards, WM
your "definable" is meaningless

Re: Natural numbers and vases

<7476658c-0c5f-4512-838d-95f2813101a7n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: askaske...@gmail.com (WM)
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 by: WM - Wed, 1 Jun 2022 15:56 UTC

William schrieb am Dienstag, 31. Mai 2022 um 23:54:55 UTC+2:
> On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 5:19:13 PM UTC-3, WM wrote:

> At the state "all exchanges are done" there is no exchanging.

Nevertheless no O has disappeared because by definition no O can disappear. Note that every O ends where the X has started. But no X starts from outside.

> And, contrary to intuition,

That is not intuition but the definition of the problem.

> you do not get to the state "all exchanges are done" by doing exchanges.

Then this state is not the state sought after but a deceiver. The required state has all exchanges done by doing them.

But nice that you have recognized without deceit set theory cannot exist.

But this is not the proper infinite. That we have for instance when we consider the entirety of the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, ... itself as a completed unit, or the points of a line as an entirety of things which is completely available. That sort of infinity is named actual infinite." [D. Hilbert: "Über das Unendliche", Mathematische Annalen 95 (1925) p. 167]

Regards, WM

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: askaske...@gmail.com (WM)
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 by: WM - Wed, 1 Jun 2022 16:07 UTC


Jim Burns schrieb am Dienstag, 31. Mai 2022 um 22:59:43 UTC+2:
> On 5/31/2022 4:26 PM, WM wrote:
> > Jim Burns schrieb
> > am Dienstag, 31. Mai 2022 um 16:23:37 UTC+2:
> >> On 5/31/2022 8:58 AM, WM wrote:

> The X's in first column of definables
> are enough to cover X's and O's in
> the whole matrix of definables.

That is blatantly wrong. Whenever an X is removed, then there is a gap. That is what you forget.
>
> The moral of this story is that
> some collections can be matched to a proper subset.

Collections have no subsets.

The moral is that you confuse
∀n ∈ ℕ_def: |ℕ \ {1, 2, 3, ..., n}| = ℵo
and
|ℕ \ {1, 2, 3, ...}| = 0 .

> > each place which an O can get to is
> > a place it can get away from.
> No. _Not_ each place.
> Not if we limit it to places _up to_ some place.
> It's the difference between infinity and
> a reallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreally large number.

I see. In fact the definable numbers are limited by the ressources of the system. Beyond this border the numbers disappear in darkness. In mathematics we have no restricted ressources but this would be a means to visualize the darkness.

Regards, WM

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: wpihug...@gmail.com (William)
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 by: William - Wed, 1 Jun 2022 16:09 UTC

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 12:56:34 PM UTC-3, WM wrote:
> William schrieb am Dienstag, 31. Mai 2022 um 23:54:55 UTC+2:
> > On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 5:19:13 PM UTC-3, WM wrote:
>
> > At the state "all exchanges are done" there is no exchanging.
> Nevertheless no O has disappeared because by definition no O can disappear.

Nope. We know that no O has disappeared at any finite step. This says nothing about the state "all exchanges are done"
>
>... The required state has all exchanges done by doing them.

Piffle. You cannot do "all exchanges" The state "all exchanges are done" is not reached by doing exchanges

--
William Hughes

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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From: inva...@invalid.com (sergi o)
Newsgroups: sci.math
Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2022 11:27:15 -0500
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 by: sergi o - Wed, 1 Jun 2022 16:27 UTC

On 6/1/2022 11:07 AM, WM wrote:
>
> Jim Burns schrieb am Dienstag, 31. Mai 2022 um 22:59:43 UTC+2:
>> On 5/31/2022 4:26 PM, WM wrote:
>>> Jim Burns schrieb
>>> am Dienstag, 31. Mai 2022 um 16:23:37 UTC+2:
>>>> On 5/31/2022 8:58 AM, WM wrote:
>
>> The X's in first column of definables
>> are enough to cover X's and O's in
>> the whole matrix of definables.
>
> That is blatantly wrong. Whenever an X is removed, then there is a gap.

wrong. the X is swapped with an O, the X is not removed, there is no gap.

>That is what you forget.

no, you forgot

>>
>> The moral of this story is that
>> some collections can be matched to a proper subset.
>

<snip old stuff>

>>> each place which an O can get to is
>>> a place it can get away from.
>> No. _Not_ each place.
>> Not if we limit it to places _up to_ some place.
>> It's the difference between infinity and
>> a reallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreally large number.
>
> I see. In fact the definable numbers are limited by the ressources of the system.

That fact makes "definable" numbers totally useless and a joke, and most all of your posts rancid.

> Beyond this border the numbers disappear in darkness.

your obtuse opinion, it is not math.

> In mathematics we have no restricted ressources but this would be a means to visualize the darkness.

there is no darkness.

>
> Regards, WM

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: horand.g...@gmail.com (Gus Gassmann)
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 by: Gus Gassmann - Wed, 1 Jun 2022 18:03 UTC

On Wednesday, 1 June 2022 at 12:56:34 UTC-3, WM wrote:
[...]
> Nevertheless no O has disappeared because by definition no O can disappear.

Muckenheim, you are dumber than a sack of potatoes. Nobody suggested that the O's disappear.

> Note that every O ends where the X has started.

Correct. And is replaced by an X.

> But no X starts from outside.

This sentence is even more stupid than your usual bullshit. Every X comes from the first column, where it is replaced by an O. And once there is an X in a particular position, it will never again be replaced by an O. Why is it so hard for you to understand that at every step there are exactly as many X's as there are O's? All you do is shuffle them around, until all the O's are in the first column (below a single X). This matrix cannot be reached in a finite number of steps, but it is the limiting matrix nonetheless.

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: askaske...@gmail.com (WM)
Injection-Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2022 18:25:08 +0000
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 by: WM - Wed, 1 Jun 2022 18:25 UTC

William schrieb am Mittwoch, 1. Juni 2022 um 18:09:57 UTC+2:
> On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 12:56:34 PM UTC-3, WM wrote:
> > William schrieb am Dienstag, 31. Mai 2022 um 23:54:55 UTC+2:
> > > On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 5:19:13 PM UTC-3, WM wrote:
> >
> > > At the state "all exchanges are done" there is no exchanging.
> > Nevertheless no O has disappeared because by definition no O can disappear.
> Nope. We know that no O has disappeared at any finite step. This says nothing about the state "all exchanges are done"

But about the state: all finite exchanges which can be done are done.
> >
> >... The required state has all exchanges done by doing them.
>
> Piffle. You cannot do "all exchanges" The state "all exchanges are done" is not reached by doing exchanges

The state "all fractions are enumerated" is not realized by enumerating all fractions but by fix and firmly believing that it exists.

Prayer leader: The state exists.
Chorus: The state exists. The state exists. The state exists.

"By a 'manifold' or 'set' I understand in general every Many which can be thought as a One, i.e., every embodiment of definite elements which by a law can be connected to become a whole," [G. Cantor: "Grundlagen einer allgemeinen Mannigfaltigkeitslehre", Leipzig (1883). Cantor, p. 204]

"By a 'set' we understand every collection M of definite well-distinguished objects m of our visualization or our thinking (which are called the 'elements' of M) into a whole." [G. Cantor: "Beiträge zur Begründung der transfiniten Mengenlehre 1", Math. Annalen 46 (1895) § 1. Cantor, p.. 282]

"If two well-defined manifolds, M and N, can be related completely, element by element, to each other [...], then for the following the expression may be permitted that these manifolds have the same cardinality or that they are equivalent."

"Every well-defined set has a definite cardinality; two sets are ascribed the same cardinality if they mutually uniquely, element by element, can be mapped onto each other."

"Two sets are called 'equivalent' if they mutually uniquely, element by element, can be mapped onto each other."

This definition has not been changed since Cantor's days and opinions - and your subterfuge will not be accepted. Come back when you are willing to argue mathematics and logic.

Regards, WM

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: askaske...@gmail.com (WM)
Injection-Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2022 18:37:05 +0000
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 by: WM - Wed, 1 Jun 2022 18:37 UTC

horand....@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 1. Juni 2022 um 20:03:32 UTC+2:
> On Wednesday, 1 June 2022 at 12:56:34 UTC-3, WM wrote:
> [...]
> > Nevertheless no O has disappeared because by definition no O can disappear.
> Nobody suggested that the O's disappear.

The O's represent not indexed fractions. But all have to be indexed.

> > Note that every O ends where the X has started.
> Correct. And is replaced by an X.
> > But no X starts from outside.
> Every X comes from the first column, where it is replaced by an O. And once there is an X in a particular position, it will never again be replaced by an O. at every step there are exactly as many X's as there are O's?

That is wrong. But both sets are infinite.

> All you do is shuffle them around, until all the O's are in the first column (below a single X).

That can never happen because below all O's of the first column there are infinitely many X in the first column (they are required to cover these O's.). But two consecutive infinite sets are impossible. Therefore there cannot be infinitely many O's in the first column, let alone all.

> This matrix cannot be reached in a finite number of steps, but it is the limiting matrix nonetheless.

Prayer leader: The limiting matrix cannot be reached but it exists.
Chorus: The limiting matrix cannot be reached but it exists. The limiting matrix cannot be reached but it exists. The limiting matrix cannot be reached but it exists.

Regards, WM

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: horand.g...@gmail.com (Gus Gassmann)
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 by: Gus Gassmann - Wed, 1 Jun 2022 19:20 UTC

On Wednesday, 1 June 2022 at 15:37:11 UTC-3, WM wrote:
[...]
> Prayer leader: The limiting matrix cannot be reached but it exists.

Oh, FUCK YOU. 1/n is always > 0, but the limit is 0. This is not some kind of prayer chant, you stupid prick. You have no clue what you are talking about, so SHUT THE FUCK UP. And while you're at it, PISS OFF.

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: wpihug...@gmail.com (William)
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 by: William - Wed, 1 Jun 2022 20:13 UTC

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 3:25:14 PM UTC-3, WM wrote:

> The state "all fractions are enumerated" is not realized by enumerating all fractions

Correct. It is not shown by counting, it is demonstrated by showing that a set of ordered pairs exists (A bijectiion is a set).

--

William Hughes

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: askaske...@gmail.com (WM)
Injection-Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2022 20:28:22 +0000
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 by: WM - Wed, 1 Jun 2022 20:28 UTC

William schrieb am Mittwoch, 1. Juni 2022 um 22:13:10 UTC+2:
> On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 3:25:14 PM UTC-3, WM wrote:
>
> > The state "all fractions are enumerated" is not realized by enumerating all fractions
> Correct. It is not shown by counting,

Counting is tantamount to ordered set of naturals.

> it is demonstrated by showing that a set of ordered pairs exists (A bijectiion is a set).

It is contradicted by showing that the set of ordered pairs does not exist.

This is a contradiction. (The matrices are an ordered set:
XOOO...
XOOO...
XOOO...
XOOO...
....

XXOO...
OOOO...
XOOO...
XOOO...
....

XXOO...
XOOO...
OOOO...
XOOO...
....

XXXO...
XOOO...
OOOO...
OOOO...
....
....)

FYI: The contradiction is resolved by the fact, that your "showing" concerns not all natural numbers but only those which have ℵo successors before ω. My proof concerns all natural numbers, not only those of
∀n ∈ ℕ_def: |ℕ \ {1, 2, 3, ..., n}| = ℵo
but also those which have no successors:
|ℕ \ {1, 2, 3, ...}| = 0 .

Regards, WM

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: askaske...@gmail.com (WM)
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 by: WM - Wed, 1 Jun 2022 20:29 UTC

horand....@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 1. Juni 2022 um 21:20:55 UTC+2:
> On Wednesday, 1 June 2022 at 15:37:11 UTC-3, WM wrote:
> [...]
> > Prayer leader: The limiting matrix cannot be reached but it exists.
> Oh, FUCK YOU. 1/n is always > 0, but the limit is 0.

Counting is not a matter of limits.

Regards, WM

Re: Natural numbers and vases

<a9281bff-f284-4f46-9ad9-001795678bdan@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: franz.fr...@gmail.com (Fritz Feldhase)
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 by: Fritz Feldhase - Wed, 1 Jun 2022 20:32 UTC

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 10:28:26 PM UTC+2, WM wrote:

> your "showing" concerns not all natural numbers but only those which have ℵo successors before ω.

Look you psychotic asshole full of shit, contrary to your implicit claim ALL natural numbers have ℵo successors before ω.

Re: Natural numbers and vases

<d4c09e5b-5f3e-4244-859e-9c620f88cc44n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: askaske...@gmail.com (WM)
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 by: WM - Wed, 1 Jun 2022 20:58 UTC

Fritz Feldhase schrieb am Mittwoch, 1. Juni 2022 um 22:32:12 UTC+2:
> On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 10:28:26 PM UTC+2, WM wrote:
>
> > your "showing" concerns not all natural numbers but only those which have ℵo successors before ω.
> contrary to your implicit claim ALL natural numbers have ℵo successors before ω.

No. If we subtract all natural numbers then none remains
|ℕ \ {1, 2, 3, ...}| = 0 .
If we subtract only definable natural numbers, then infinitely many remain
∀n ∈ ℕ_def: |ℕ \ {1, 2, 3, ..., n}| = ℵo .
A significant difference.

Regards, WM

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: franz.fr...@gmail.com (Fritz Feldhase)
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 by: Fritz Feldhase - Wed, 1 Jun 2022 21:56 UTC

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 10:58:29 PM UTC+2, WM wrote:
> Fritz Feldhase schrieb am Mittwoch, 1. Juni 2022 um 22:32:12 UTC+2:
> >
> > ALL natural numbers have ℵo successors before ω.
> >
> No.

Yes.

Hint:

An e IN: card({m e IN : n < m < ω}) = ℵo

is a set-theoretic theorem.

EOD, you silly crank.

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: wpihug...@gmail.com (William)
Injection-Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2022 22:04:08 +0000
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 by: William - Wed, 1 Jun 2022 22:04 UTC

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 5:28:26 PM UTC-3, WM wrote:

> My proof concerns all natural numbers,

"All natural numbers" is the set of natural numbers. The properties of a set and the elements of the set can be different. Each element is finite. The set of elements is infinite.

--
William Hughes

Re: Natural numbers and vases

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
From: wpihug...@gmail.com (William)
Injection-Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2022 22:23:39 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
X-Received-Bytes: 7869
 by: William - Wed, 1 Jun 2022 22:23 UTC

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 5:28:26 PM UTC-3, WM wrote:
> William schrieb am Mittwoch, 1. Juni 2022 um 22:13:10 UTC+2:

> > [The state "all fractions are enumerated" ] is demonstrated by showing that a set of ordered pairs exists (A bijectiion is a set).
> It is contradicted by showing that the set of ordered pairs does not exist.
>
> This is a contradiction.

Piffle. It is a set of an matrices. It says nothing about the existence of a set of ordered pairs;

--
William Hughes

Re: Natural numbers and vases

<t78qu1$1hsr$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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Subject: Re: Natural numbers and vases
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 by: sergi o - Wed, 1 Jun 2022 22:58 UTC

On 6/1/2022 1:03 PM, Gus Gassmann wrote:
> On Wednesday, 1 June 2022 at 12:56:34 UTC-3, WM wrote:
> [...]
>> Nevertheless no O has disappeared because by definition no O can disappear.
>
> Muckenheim, you are dumber than a sack of potatoes. Nobody suggested that the O's disappear.

WM is not honest, a sack of potatoes is.

>
>> Note that every O ends where the X has started.
>
> Correct. And is replaced by an X.
>
>> But no X starts from outside.
>
> This sentence is even more stupid than your usual bullshit. Every X comes from the first column, where it is replaced by an O. And once there is an X in a particular position, it will never again be replaced by an O. Why is it so hard for you to understand that at every step there are exactly as many X's as there are O's? All you do is shuffle them around, until all the O's are in the first column (below a single X). This matrix cannot be reached in a finite number of steps, but it is the limiting matrix nonetheless.
>

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