On 4/30/2024 5:01 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Sun Apr 28 14:29:37 2024 AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 4/28/2024 1:42 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 27 Apr 2024 15:49:45 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> My comment was in reply to your, "They will probably try to
>>>>> sell us things that are eventually found to be a scam." We
>>>>> have a lot of those here!
>>>>
>>>> Yep. Whenever I go somewhere on vacation, that's what the locals do
>>>> to the tourists.
>>>>
>>>>> Food is the least likely 'catastrophic' problem. World grain
>>>>> production rises every year on less land with less labor.
>>>>> Human innovation rocks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding overpopulation, the Cassandras haven't been so
>>>>> great on that either. All advanced countries suffer
>>>>> declining birth rates, many including USA below replacement.
>>>>> Regarding extreme solutions to 'impending doom', look at the
>>>>> results of Mao's One Child policy which has turned out very
>>>>> badly.
>>>>
>>>> Rather write a long rant on the topic, I think you'll find this video
>>>> more digestible.
>>>> "The World Population Crisis NO ONE Sees Coming"
>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk5KoWUwz6Q> (21:52)
>>>> The part on the changing demographics is rather interesting. Note
>>>> that the author of the video made no attempt to predict the future or
>>>> even propose a short term trend. When there were benefits to having
>>>> many children, birth rate and fertility increase. When the benefits
>>>> are less valuable or useful, as is currently the situation, birth rate
>>>> and fertility decrease. What happens when the aliens arrive is
>>>> unknown. If they are hostile, increasing the birth rate is what
>>>> traditionally is used to build a large army to fight the aliens. If
>>>> they are friendly and help solve our problems, people might think that
>>>> it's a wonderful world and a great time to have kids. Or, they might
>>>> decide to have a good time and not want to deal with difficulties of
>>>> raising kids. Toss a coin on that one.
>>>>
>>>> Chairman Mao's one child policy was a resounding success, but not in
>>>> the manner initially intended. What it actually did was produce a
>>>> radical change in China's economic policies and opened China to trade,
>>>> commerce and a restricted form of private enterprise. It didn't
>>>> change China's political system in the slightest. The result was a
>>>> spectacular increase in the standard of living. The birth rate is now
>>>> decreasing because the population have found better things to do than
>>>> raise large families. It took a while longer than Mao would have
>>>> predicted, but I think if he were alive today, he would be proud of
>>>> what he indirectly accomplished.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks to you I was thinking of extraterrestrials on a long
>>> drive here early today.
>>>
>>> IMHO it's more likely than not that there is other life
>>> beyond Earth. But, given the immense distances, highly
>>> unlikely that any two civilizations capable of leaving their
>>> own planet would ever encounter one another.
>>>
>>> Add in the time constraint and it's virtually impossible. By
>>> time constraint, I'm thinking of civilization durability
>>> over galactic time periods. If one posits a couple of very
>>> successful life forms which each develop over say 50,000
>>> years in different parts of this or another galaxy or
>>> galaxies, it's unlikely they would be contemporaries. This
>>> is again on top of the geography problem, so multiplying
>>> probabilities you start to approach zero here.
>>>
>>> And a further thought- One of my pet peeves is the comment
>>> in NASA press releases about exoplanets which 'could support
>>> life'. pfffft, how parochial and narrow minded. There's no
>>> reason to limit a 'life form' to compatibility with human
>>> respiration of our atmosphere, our operating temperature
>>> range or more importantly our chemistry. It's not
>>> unreasonable to posit an utterly different basis for life
>>> outside of carbon chemistry.
>>>
>>> All random thoughts above are fact-free, non disprovable and
>>> one man's opinion.
>>> --
>>> Andrew Muzi
>>> am@yellowjersey.org
>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>
>>
>>
>> It is EXTREMELY unlikely that there is any intelligent life anywhere
>> else. Even if you're not religious, the details that were necessary for
>> life to form are so vaste and finely detailed that for life to form
>> anywhere else is such a long shot that it isnearly impossible and for
>> intelligent life to form so close to impossible that you might as well
>> assume that there is none anywhere else.
>>
>> Flying saucers are someone's drunken imagination.
>>
>
>>
> Intelligent life is probably rather low probability after all doesn’t seem
> to have happened more than once here.

even that's an arguable point

>
> Life is another thing, and could be more numerous though distances and time
> both of which are significant.
>
> Roger Merriman
>

On 4/30/2024 12:27 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> One problem with such discussions is that it's much easier to disprove
> something than to prove it. To prove something correct, it is
> necessary to prove ALL the claims. If one claim suspected of being
> wrong, all the other claims become suspect and are likely to be
> summarily dismissed as also wrong. That makes disproving something
> much easier as only one false or suspect claim is all that's necessary
> for the house of cards to collapse.

Doesn't seem to have stopped the theists.
(IOW - where does that leave god?)

>
>

On 4/30/2024 1:44 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/30/2024 10:58 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 4/29/2024 11:35 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Mon, 29 Apr 2024 22:03:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Most of the articles I find on quick search say silicon based life
>>>> _may_
>>>> be possible, but is highly unlikely.
>>>
>>> ...
>>> Now, print out the premature judgment list in the above URL. ...
>>
>> Lots of good advice there. And I like the list of Premature Judgment
>> quotes.
>>
>> Since I'm actually not the one trying to construct silicon based
>> extraterrestrial life forms, I'll pass all this on to ... um, whatever
>> entity is involved in that effort.
>>
>> Do you happen to have its email address?   ;-)
>>
>
> No one's claiming the UFO pilots are silicon based beings.

Correct, of course.

> The point was merely that the universe is larger than we can fully
> comprehend and life could possibly exist in ways different from us.

Right. I vaguely recall a minor scene in the _Hitchhiker's Guide_
novels, where a powerful galactic race assembled a vast and mighty fleet
of starships to mount a well-planned and devastating attack on earth;
but found, to their destruction, that they were much tinier than a
sheepdog's flea. Or something like that.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/30/2024 6:58 PM, zen cycle wrote:
> On 4/30/2024 5:01 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>
>> Intelligent life is probably rather low probability after all doesn’t
>> seem
>> to have happened more than once here.
>
> even that's an arguable point

I suspect all points are arguable. It certainly seems to be the case in
r.b.tech.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/30/2024 12:55 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 11:58:59 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 4/29/2024 11:35 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> Since I'm actually not the one trying to construct silicon based
>> extraterrestrial life forms, I'll pass all this on to ... um, whatever
>> entity is involved in that effort.
>>
>> Do you happen to have its email address? ;-)
>
> Sure. The authors of the survey paper, provided by Ted Heise, are
> listed near the start of the paper:
> <https://www.mdpi.com/2075-1729/10/6/84>
> Correspondence goes to Janusz Jurand Petkowski at MIT.
> (jjpetkow@mit.edu).
> Ask him for direction and links to anything new in the past 4 years.
> <https://www.januszpetkowski.com>
> Nice. He's from Poland.
> <https://astrobio.pl/en/start-en/>
> <https://astrobio.pl/janusz-petkowski/>

I was hoping for some intergalactic email address.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 21:03:51 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 4/30/2024 12:55 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 11:58:59 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/29/2024 11:35 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> Since I'm actually not the one trying to construct silicon based
>>> extraterrestrial life forms, I'll pass all this on to ... um, whatever
>>> entity is involved in that effort.
>>>
>>> Do you happen to have its email address? ;-)
>>
>> Sure. The authors of the survey paper, provided by Ted Heise, are
>> listed near the start of the paper:
>> <https://www.mdpi.com/2075-1729/10/6/84>
>> Correspondence goes to Janusz Jurand Petkowski at MIT.
>> (jjpetkow@mit.edu).
>> Ask him for direction and links to anything new in the past 4 years.
>> <https://www.januszpetkowski.com>
>> Nice. He's from Poland.
>> <https://astrobio.pl/en/start-en/>
>> <https://astrobio.pl/janusz-petkowski/>
>
>I was hoping for some intergalactic email address.

Ahem. You initially wanted a specific name and their contact info,
which I delivered. Now, you do a 180 degree rotation and want
something else, which I assume is as big and vague as possible.
How about:
General Delivery, Earth?
If that doesn't work, try Santa Claus, North Pole.

If you receive an envelope full of sand, it's your silicon life form
paying a visit.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 19:03:47 -0400, zen cycle
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On 4/30/2024 12:27 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>
>> One problem with such discussions is that it's much easier to disprove
>> something than to prove it. To prove something correct, it is
>> necessary to prove ALL the claims. If one claim suspected of being
>> wrong, all the other claims become suspect and are likely to be
>> summarily dismissed as also wrong. That makes disproving something
>> much easier as only one false or suspect claim is all that's necessary
>> for the house of cards to collapse.

>Doesn't seem to have stopped the theists.

It never will. Dogma carries on forever.

What really happens is that the true believers are granted their
favorite wish, which is to meet and be judged by God(tm) and his
authorized representatives. The usual result is a stern lecture by
God(tm) rebuking the recently deceased loyal follower for the cost of
their re-education so that they might learn to think for
independently. The cost of dealing with the dogmatics, fanatics,
inflexibles, unteachables, etc is both astronomical and limitless.
It's only after this point that the true believers realize the error
of their ways and begin thinking properly.

>(IOW - where does that leave god?)

Same as always and living off the proceeds from the sale of
indulgences to the true believers by God's self-authorized
representatives.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 20:58:05 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 4/30/2024 6:58 PM, zen cycle wrote:
>> On 4/30/2024 5:01 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>
>>> Intelligent life is probably rather low probability after all doesn’t
>>> seem
>>> to have happened more than once here.
>>
>> even that's an arguable point
>
>I suspect all points are arguable. It certainly seems to be the case in
>r.b.tech.

Arguing science fiction is like arguing religion or politics in that
logic isn't a factor.

On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 19:14:14 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 19:03:47 -0400, zen cycle
><funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On 4/30/2024 12:27 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>
>>> One problem with such discussions is that it's much easier to disprove
>>> something than to prove it. To prove something correct, it is
>>> necessary to prove ALL the claims. If one claim suspected of being
>>> wrong, all the other claims become suspect and are likely to be
>>> summarily dismissed as also wrong. That makes disproving something
>>> much easier as only one false or suspect claim is all that's necessary
>>> for the house of cards to collapse.
>
>>Doesn't seem to have stopped the theists.
>
>It never will. Dogma carries on forever.
>
>What really happens is that the true believers are granted their
>favorite wish, which is to meet and be judged by God(tm) and his
>authorized representatives. The usual result is a stern lecture by
>God(tm) rebuking the recently deceased loyal follower for the cost of
>their re-education so that they might learn to think for
>independently. The cost of dealing with the dogmatics, fanatics,
>inflexibles, unteachables, etc is both astronomical and limitless.
>It's only after this point that the true believers realize the error
>of their ways and begin thinking properly.
>
>>(IOW - where does that leave god?)
>
>Same as always and living off the proceeds from the sale of
>indulgences to the true believers by God's self-authorized
>representatives.

Dogma is group thinking on steroids.

On 4/30/2024 9:54 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 21:03:51 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 4/30/2024 12:55 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 11:58:59 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/29/2024 11:35 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>> Since I'm actually not the one trying to construct silicon based
>>>> extraterrestrial life forms, I'll pass all this on to ... um, whatever
>>>> entity is involved in that effort.
>>>>
>>>> Do you happen to have its email address? ;-)
>>>
>>> Sure. The authors of the survey paper, provided by Ted Heise, are
>>> listed near the start of the paper:
>>> <https://www.mdpi.com/2075-1729/10/6/84>
>>> Correspondence goes to Janusz Jurand Petkowski at MIT.
>>> (jjpetkow@mit.edu).
>>> Ask him for direction and links to anything new in the past 4 years.
>>> <https://www.januszpetkowski.com>
>>> Nice. He's from Poland.
>>> <https://astrobio.pl/en/start-en/>
>>> <https://astrobio.pl/janusz-petkowski/>
>>
>> I was hoping for some intergalactic email address.
>
> Ahem. You initially wanted a specific name and their contact info,
> which I delivered.

Nope. I asked for the the email address of an entity trying to construct
silicon based extraterrestrial life forms. ISTM that disqualifies anyone
on earth.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sat Apr 27 10:55:37 2024 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 27 Apr 2024 08:07:27 -0400, zen cycle
> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Conventional wisdom suggests that if we ever meet extra-terrestrials
> >> with superior knowledge and technology, they will try to kill and eat
> >> us. That's wrong. They will probably try to sell us things that are
> >> eventually found to be a scam.
> >
> >https://archive.org/details/galaxymagazine-1950-11/page/n91/mode/2up?view=theater
>
> Yep. I read that classic Sci-Fi story long ago. It's very
> appropriate. It's also the reason that I emphasize knowing the
> motivations of those I deal with. Not so much "why are they doing
> this" but rather "what problem are they trying to solve". In the
> colloquial "what makes them tick". The picture becomes much clearer
> (or more transparent) once that's determined. We have behind us an
> unpleasant history of dealing with dissimilar races, tribes,
> ideologies and political parties. The genocides and "ethnic
> cleansing" of our past should serve as a good indication of things to
> come should we ever meet. I can't predict how it will transpire but
> using our history as a guide, I do know that it will be far worse than
> anything we can predict.
>
>
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Liebermann, you are a brainless moron. The A#merican Indians north of the Navaho nation invaded this country and murdered the actual native inhabitants so thouroughly that it is extremely difficult to find any traces of them. Enslaving blacks happened AFTER they enslaved Irish. This killing and enslaving other groups on the British Isles was so engrained that the Scot's wouldn't even allow the Brits past the Roman wall.

We KNOW your motivations - you want to believe that you aee smart.You aren't and never were.

So you can kiss my ass before you die from turbo cancer.

On Mon Apr 29 12:27:10 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 4/29/2024 11:41 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
> > On 4/28/2024 11:40 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >> ... However, there are plenty of other things in our environment
> >> and in the cosmos that have very low probabilities. For example, the
> >> numerical values of the physical constants control so many things that
> >> are responsible for making our universe and ourselves that suggest
> >> intelligent design rather than random chance is what sets their
> >> values:
> >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_constant>
> >> Change any of these even slightly and our universe will fall apart.
> >
> > AKA the "fine Tuning" argument - generally used as a justification for
> > "Intelligent Design" arguments
>
> Yes, one of the justifications. Those opposed have sometimes proposed
> instead that there were an infinite (?) number of universes that
> spontaneously sprung into being, and that those whose constants didn't
> jibe self-destroyed, or perhaps spawned other attempts at universes,
> until the one (?) we enjoy managed to succeed. Survival of the fittest
> on a greater than universal scale.
>
> To me, that sounds no less hypothetical, no less lacking in evidence
> than an extra-universe being who willed it into existence.
>
> IOW, choose your myth. Maybe it will be true, maybe not.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski
>

Tell us Frank, what do you know about alternate universes?

On Mon Apr 29 13:25:51 2024 Zen Cycle wrote:
> On 4/29/2024 12:27 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 4/29/2024 11:41 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
> >> On 4/28/2024 11:40 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >>> ... However, there are plenty of other things in our environment
> >>> and in the cosmos that have very low probabilities. For example, the
> >>> numerical values of the physical constants control so many things that
> >>> are responsible for making our universe and ourselves that suggest
> >>> intelligent design rather than random chance is what sets their
> >>> values:
> >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_constant>
> >>> Change any of these even slightly and our universe will fall apart.
> >>
> >> AKA the "fine Tuning" argument - generally used as a justification for
> >> "Intelligent Design" arguments
> >
> > Yes, one of the justifications. Those opposed have sometimes proposed
> > instead that there were an infinite (?) number of universes that
> > spontaneously sprung into being, and that those whose constants didn't
> > jibe self-destroyed, or perhaps spawned other attempts at universes,
> > until the one (?) we enjoy managed to succeed. Survival of the fittest
> > on a greater than universal scale.
> >
> > To me, that sounds no less hypothetical, no less lacking in evidence
> > than an extra-universe being who willed it into existence.
>
> Mathematical models give credibility to multiverse theory. ID, not so much.
>
> >
> > IOW, choose your myth. Maybe it will be true, maybe not.
> >

Which "mathematical models"? There is no models unless they have been WRITTEN in an actual study complete with peer review.

Flunky cannot help himself from being a moron.

On Tue Apr 30 12:44:01 2024 AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/30/2024 10:58 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 4/29/2024 11:35 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >> On Mon, 29 Apr 2024 22:03:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 4/29/2024 7:46 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >>>> On Mon, 29 Apr 2024 12:18:50 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 4/28/2024 11:40 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >>>>>> I beg to partially differ. If we assume that all the
> >>>>>> known elements
> >>>>>> are present in roughly the same distributions
> >>>>>> throughout the universe,
> >>>>>> there's a good chance that self-replicating life
> >>>>>> processes will be
> >>>>>> built using the same elements as on planet Earth.
> >>>>>> "Carbon atoms are
> >>>>>> unique because they can bond together to form very
> >>>>>> long, durable
> >>>>>> chains that can have branches or rings of various
> >>>>>> sizes and often
> >>>>>> contain thousands of carbon atoms."
> >>>>>> <https://www.nature.com/articles/139290a0.pdf>
> >>>>>> The emergence of life is possible with comparatively
> >>>>>> inferior elements
> >>>>>> but the main building block will mostly likely be a
> >>>>>> stable atom that
> >>>>>> will build the strongest and move versatile bonds to
> >>>>>> other atoms.
> >>>>
> >>>>> Agreed. I confess to low talent for chemistry. But I've
> >>>>> not yet heard of
> >>>>> a detailed proposal for a chemistry of life built on
> >>>>> anything but carbon.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If someone here has such a proposal, I'd happily run it
> >>>>> by the chemists
> >>>>> in our family.
> >>>>
> >>>> Did you search for "silicon based life"? There is quite
> >>>> a bit on the
> >>>> possible existence of Silicon based life:
> >>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=possibility+of+silicon+based+life>
> >>
> >>> I've read about the possibilities of silicon for decades
> >>> now, but I've
> >>> never seen details on exactly how it would form the
> >>> hugely complex
> >>> molecules necessary for life, let alone self-replicate them.
> >>
> >> That's easy. Take a complex hydrocarbon, probably an
> >> amino acid, rip
> >> out the carbon atom and replace it with a silicon atom.
> >> Keep the
> >> results away from water. The double helix zipper should
> >> work as well
> >> for silicon as it does for carbon.
> >>
> >> The possibilities of human powered flight goes back to the
> >> Greeks and
> >> Icarus in approx 8 CE. It wasn't until 1898, when Otto
> >> Lilianthal
> >> built a glider that worked more than once. The first
> >> human powered
> >> flight was in 1961 by Derek Piggot using pedal power.
> >> During those 19
> >> centuries between mythology and something that actually
> >> flew, humanity
> >> wasn't idle. The wise and the brave made their attempts
> >> and usually
> >> failed. That didn't discourage their successor. Everyone
> >> knew that
> >> it could be done. They just didn't know how. Eventually,
> >> the magic
> >> formula for human powered flight was discovered and
> >> progress lurched
> >> forward at an incredible rate. For 19 centuries, progress
> >> was
> >> measured in false hopes, crashes, fatalities and
> >> discouragement from
> >> those who should have known better:
> >> "Premature Judgment"
> >> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/Premature-Judgement.txt>
> >> There are about 10 quotes, from the eminent luminaries of
> >> their times,
> >> indicating that flight was impossible. For example:
> >>
> >> "Heavier than air flying machines are impossible."
> >> -- Lord Kelvin
> >>
> >> I suggest you print a copy of the above quotes, and read
> >> them whenever
> >> you fell compelled to discourage progress or claim that
> >> something is
> >> impossible, impractical or useless. I also read it when
> >> dealing with
> >> a long succession of failures and dismal results. The
> >> road to success
> >> it littered with the wreckage of past failures. The trick
> >> is to not
> >> trip over the wreckage.
> >>
> >>> Those are the details I'd like to run by the chemists I
> >>> know.
> >>
> >> Why? Are they sufficiently imaginative to contrive a
> >> solution to the
> >> silicon life problem? That's the problem with experts.
> >> If they can't
> >> design something that works, they immediately assume that
> >> nobody else
> >> can. That's what Dr Lindemann did when he analyzed the
> >> aerial photos
> >> of the V2 on the ground and declared that it was too heavy
> >> to get off
> >> the ground because he assume that it was powered by
> >> cordite, not
> >> ethanol and LOX.
> >>
> >>> Most of the articles I find on quick search say silicon
> >>> based life _may_
> >>> be possible, but is highly unlikely.
> >>
> >> You don't need an expert to tell you that silicon based
> >> life is
> >> impossible. You only need an expert to verify that your
> >> proposed
> >> solution has a chance of working. That's what design
> >> reviews are for.
> >> Also, if you are sufficiently desperate that you need the
> >> advice of an
> >> expert, then you are not sufficiently informed, educated or
> >> experienced about the problems. Ask your expert to
> >> explain to you the
> >> problems involved in creating a silicon based life form on
> >> earth and
> >> in a possible alien environment. You're likely to learn
> >> more from a
> >> list of potential problems and possible solutions than
> >> from an
> >> expert's summary judgment.
> >>
> >> Now, print out the premature judgment list in the above
> >> URL. Most of
> >> the names listed were at the peak of their profession in
> >> their day.
> >> Look them up with Google to convince yourself that they
> >> are real. Ask
> >> yourself "what were they thinking when they said that?"
> >> In some
> >> cases, they had good reason to give the wrong advice,
> >> usually the
> >> result of being involved in a previous failure. Like
> >> Lindemann, they
> >> assumed that if they had failed, then everyone after them
> >> will also
> >> fail.
> >
> > Lots of good advice there. And I like the list of Premature
> > Judgment quotes.
> >
> > Since I'm actually not the one trying to construct silicon
> > based extraterrestrial life forms, I'll pass all this on to
> > ... um, whatever entity is involved in that effort.
> >
> > Do you happen to have its email address? ;-)
> >
>
> No one's claiming the UFO pilots are silicon based beings.
>
> The point was merely that the universe is larger than we can
> fully comprehend and life could possibly exist in ways
> different from us.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> am@yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>

Do you know what standard that "scientists" (meaning college sofmores) are using for "possible life"? That is any planet that lies in the star's possible "liquid water zone". By this standard Venus is in the liquid water zone despite the fact that the surface temperrature of Venus is higher than the sunny side of Mercury.

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 4/30/2024 1:44 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/30/2024 10:58 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 4/29/2024 11:35 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 29 Apr 2024 22:03:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Most of the articles I find on quick search say silicon based life
>>>>> _may_
>>>>> be possible, but is highly unlikely.
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>> Now, print out the premature judgment list in the above URL. ...
>>>
>>> Lots of good advice there. And I like the list of Premature Judgment
>>> quotes.
>>>
>>> Since I'm actually not the one trying to construct silicon based
>>> extraterrestrial life forms, I'll pass all this on to ... um, whatever
>>> entity is involved in that effort.
>>>
>>> Do you happen to have its email address?   ;-)
>>>
>>
>> No one's claiming the UFO pilots are silicon based beings.
>
> Correct, of course.
>
>> The point was merely that the universe is larger than we can fully
>> comprehend and life could possibly exist in ways different from us.
>
> Right. I vaguely recall a minor scene in the _Hitchhiker's Guide_
> novels, where a powerful galactic race assembled a vast and mighty fleet
> of starships to mount a well-planned and devastating attack on earth;
> but found, to their destruction, that they were much tinier than a
> sheepdog's flea. Or something like that.
>

Correct though note that Hitch hikers guide to the Galaxy is a radio play
with book/film adaptions ie cut down/abridged for those formats.

Roger Merriman

On Mon Apr 29 13:28:41 2024 Zen Cycle wrote:
> On 4/29/2024 12:18 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 4/28/2024 11:40 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >>
> >> I beg to partially differ. If we assume that all the known elements
> >> are present in roughly the same distributions throughout the universe,
> >> there's a good chance that self-replicating life processes will be
> >> built using the same elements as on planet Earth. "Carbon atoms are
> >> unique because they can bond together to form very long, durable
> >> chains that can have branches or rings of various sizes and often
> >> contain thousands of carbon atoms."
> >> <https://www.nature.com/articles/139290a0.pdf>
> >> The emergence of life is possible with comparatively inferior elements
> >> but the main building block will mostly likely be a stable atom that
> >> will build the strongest and move versatile bonds to other atoms.
> >
> > Agreed. I confess to low talent for chemistry. But I've not yet heard of
> > a detailed proposal for a chemistry of life built on anything but carbon.
> >
> > If someone here has such a proposal, I'd happily run it by the chemists
> > in our family.
>
> https://www.space.com/alien-life-not-carbon-based-autocatalysis-common
>
> No offense to anyone in your family, but this goes far beyond plain ole
> chemistry

Frank tells us that he isn't a chemist and then quotes some bullshit article. Remember that I have complained about the ineptitude of present day people with degrees. While this does NOT mean that all people with degrees are stupid, a very large contingent of them are. I can only speak from experience but the people from whom I learned engineering were entirely different from the people that were working for me.

As for his article - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182327/

There is a lawsuit presently in progress in which they have already shown that a lavoratory has been selling desired results to attornies especially in high price class action law suits. These sorts of things sporead from law firms with nothing better to do. They recently discoivered smallamounts of a pedticide in Cheerios. They did not say what pedticides they were but already a class action has been filed against General Mills. Now, modern insecticides do not cause cancer in any real, peer reviewed studies and IF there was pesticide in Cheerios, it would be in EVERY wheat flour cereal made by all companoes

So this is case of false claims of Cheerios causing Cancer.

Frank is being manipulated and he doesn't care because it is comeing from the slime stream media.

On 5/1/2024 11:40 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tue Apr 30 12:44:01 2024 AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/30/2024 10:58 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 4/29/2024 11:35 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 29 Apr 2024 22:03:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 4/29/2024 7:46 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 29 Apr 2024 12:18:50 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/28/2024 11:40 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>>>>>> I beg to partially differ. If we assume that all the
>>>>>>>> known elements
>>>>>>>> are present in roughly the same distributions
>>>>>>>> throughout the universe,
>>>>>>>> there's a good chance that self-replicating life
>>>>>>>> processes will be
>>>>>>>> built using the same elements as on planet Earth.
>>>>>>>> "Carbon atoms are
>>>>>>>> unique because they can bond together to form very
>>>>>>>> long, durable
>>>>>>>> chains that can have branches or rings of various
>>>>>>>> sizes and often
>>>>>>>> contain thousands of carbon atoms."
>>>>>>>> <https://www.nature.com/articles/139290a0.pdf>
>>>>>>>> The emergence of life is possible with comparatively
>>>>>>>> inferior elements
>>>>>>>> but the main building block will mostly likely be a
>>>>>>>> stable atom that
>>>>>>>> will build the strongest and move versatile bonds to
>>>>>>>> other atoms.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Agreed. I confess to low talent for chemistry. But I've
>>>>>>> not yet heard of
>>>>>>> a detailed proposal for a chemistry of life built on
>>>>>>> anything but carbon.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If someone here has such a proposal, I'd happily run it
>>>>>>> by the chemists
>>>>>>> in our family.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Did you search for "silicon based life"? There is quite
>>>>>> a bit on the
>>>>>> possible existence of Silicon based life:
>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=possibility+of+silicon+based+life>
>>>>
>>>>> I've read about the possibilities of silicon for decades
>>>>> now, but I've
>>>>> never seen details on exactly how it would form the
>>>>> hugely complex
>>>>> molecules necessary for life, let alone self-replicate them.
>>>>
>>>> That's easy. Take a complex hydrocarbon, probably an
>>>> amino acid, rip
>>>> out the carbon atom and replace it with a silicon atom.
>>>> Keep the
>>>> results away from water. The double helix zipper should
>>>> work as well
>>>> for silicon as it does for carbon.
>>>>
>>>> The possibilities of human powered flight goes back to the
>>>> Greeks and
>>>> Icarus in approx 8 CE. It wasn't until 1898, when Otto
>>>> Lilianthal
>>>> built a glider that worked more than once. The first
>>>> human powered
>>>> flight was in 1961 by Derek Piggot using pedal power.
>>>> During those 19
>>>> centuries between mythology and something that actually
>>>> flew, humanity
>>>> wasn't idle. The wise and the brave made their attempts
>>>> and usually
>>>> failed. That didn't discourage their successor. Everyone
>>>> knew that
>>>> it could be done. They just didn't know how. Eventually,
>>>> the magic
>>>> formula for human powered flight was discovered and
>>>> progress lurched
>>>> forward at an incredible rate. For 19 centuries, progress
>>>> was
>>>> measured in false hopes, crashes, fatalities and
>>>> discouragement from
>>>> those who should have known better:
>>>> "Premature Judgment"
>>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/Premature-Judgement.txt>
>>>> There are about 10 quotes, from the eminent luminaries of
>>>> their times,
>>>> indicating that flight was impossible. For example:
>>>>
>>>> "Heavier than air flying machines are impossible."
>>>> -- Lord Kelvin
>>>>
>>>> I suggest you print a copy of the above quotes, and read
>>>> them whenever
>>>> you fell compelled to discourage progress or claim that
>>>> something is
>>>> impossible, impractical or useless. I also read it when
>>>> dealing with
>>>> a long succession of failures and dismal results. The
>>>> road to success
>>>> it littered with the wreckage of past failures. The trick
>>>> is to not
>>>> trip over the wreckage.
>>>>
>>>>> Those are the details I'd like to run by the chemists I
>>>>> know.
>>>>
>>>> Why? Are they sufficiently imaginative to contrive a
>>>> solution to the
>>>> silicon life problem? That's the problem with experts.
>>>> If they can't
>>>> design something that works, they immediately assume that
>>>> nobody else
>>>> can. That's what Dr Lindemann did when he analyzed the
>>>> aerial photos
>>>> of the V2 on the ground and declared that it was too heavy
>>>> to get off
>>>> the ground because he assume that it was powered by
>>>> cordite, not
>>>> ethanol and LOX.
>>>>
>>>>> Most of the articles I find on quick search say silicon
>>>>> based life _may_
>>>>> be possible, but is highly unlikely.
>>>>
>>>> You don't need an expert to tell you that silicon based
>>>> life is
>>>> impossible. You only need an expert to verify that your
>>>> proposed
>>>> solution has a chance of working. That's what design
>>>> reviews are for.
>>>> Also, if you are sufficiently desperate that you need the
>>>> advice of an
>>>> expert, then you are not sufficiently informed, educated or
>>>> experienced about the problems. Ask your expert to
>>>> explain to you the
>>>> problems involved in creating a silicon based life form on
>>>> earth and
>>>> in a possible alien environment. You're likely to learn
>>>> more from a
>>>> list of potential problems and possible solutions than
>>>> from an
>>>> expert's summary judgment.
>>>>
>>>> Now, print out the premature judgment list in the above
>>>> URL. Most of
>>>> the names listed were at the peak of their profession in
>>>> their day.
>>>> Look them up with Google to convince yourself that they
>>>> are real. Ask
>>>> yourself "what were they thinking when they said that?"
>>>> In some
>>>> cases, they had good reason to give the wrong advice,
>>>> usually the
>>>> result of being involved in a previous failure. Like
>>>> Lindemann, they
>>>> assumed that if they had failed, then everyone after them
>>>> will also
>>>> fail.
>>>
>>> Lots of good advice there. And I like the list of Premature
>>> Judgment quotes.
>>>
>>> Since I'm actually not the one trying to construct silicon
>>> based extraterrestrial life forms, I'll pass all this on to
>>> ... um, whatever entity is involved in that effort.
>>>
>>> Do you happen to have its email address? ;-)
>>>
>>
>> No one's claiming the UFO pilots are silicon based beings.
>>
>> The point was merely that the universe is larger than we can
>> fully comprehend and life could possibly exist in ways
>> different from us.

On 5/1/2024 11:31 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Tell us Frank, what do you know about alternate universes?

I know you live in one! :-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/1/2024 12:46 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> I vaguely recall a minor scene in the _Hitchhiker's Guide_
>> novels, where a powerful galactic race assembled a vast and mighty fleet
>> of starships to mount a well-planned and devastating attack on earth;
>> but found, to their destruction, that they were much tinier than a
>> sheepdog's flea. Or something like that.
>>
>
> Correct though note that Hitch hikers guide to the Galaxy is a radio play
> with book/film adaptions ie cut down/abridged for those formats.

Right. I enjoyed the books, but could never get into the other formats.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 5/1/2024 12:46 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> I vaguely recall a minor scene in the _Hitchhiker's Guide_
>>> novels, where a powerful galactic race assembled a vast and mighty fleet
>>> of starships to mount a well-planned and devastating attack on earth;
>>> but found, to their destruction, that they were much tinier than a
>>> sheepdog's flea. Or something like that.
>>>
>>
>> Correct though note that Hitch hikers guide to the Galaxy is a radio play
>> with book/film adaptions ie cut down/abridged for those formats.
>
> Right. I enjoyed the books, but could never get into the other formats.
>

I do little of either now, but certainly back in the day used to be well
read as I’d have podcasts/audiobooks etc on a iPod during podcasts first
day in the sun as you where!

Roger Merriman

On Wed, 01 May 2024 20:33:13 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 5/1/2024 12:46 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> I vaguely recall a minor scene in the _Hitchhiker's Guide_
>>>> novels, where a powerful galactic race assembled a vast and mighty fleet
>>>> of starships to mount a well-planned and devastating attack on earth;
>>>> but found, to their destruction, that they were much tinier than a
>>>> sheepdog's flea. Or something like that.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Correct though note that Hitch hikers guide to the Galaxy is a radio play
>>> with book/film adaptions ie cut down/abridged for those formats.
>>
>> Right. I enjoyed the books, but could never get into the other formats.
>>
>
>I do little of either now, but certainly back in the day used to be well
>read as I’d have podcasts/audiobooks etc on a iPod during podcasts first
>day in the sun as you where!
>
>Roger Merriman

I read and I also write. I'm doing the final editing of my latest book
right now.

I'm a realist so I have no use for science fiction of any kind. And
as a realist, I also have no use for most "realism" TV, although
sometimes I do watch "Cops," and it's new version called "Live PD."

On 5/1/2024 4:00 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> On Wed, 01 May 2024 20:33:13 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 5/1/2024 12:46 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> I vaguely recall a minor scene in the _Hitchhiker's Guide_
>>>>> novels, where a powerful galactic race assembled a vast and mighty fleet
>>>>> of starships to mount a well-planned and devastating attack on earth;
>>>>> but found, to their destruction, that they were much tinier than a
>>>>> sheepdog's flea. Or something like that.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Correct though note that Hitch hikers guide to the Galaxy is a radio play
>>>> with book/film adaptions ie cut down/abridged for those formats.
>>>
>>> Right. I enjoyed the books, but could never get into the other formats.
>>>
>>
>> I do little of either now, but certainly back in the day used to be well
>> read as I’d have podcasts/audiobooks etc on a iPod during podcasts first
>> day in the sun as you where!
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> I read and I also write. I'm doing the final editing of my latest book
> right now.
>
> I'm a realist so I have no use for science fiction of any kind. And
> as a realist, I also have no use for most "realism" TV, although
> sometimes I do watch "Cops," and it's new version called "Live PD."

For 'true crime', can't beat the overnight news in this era
of dash cams and body cams. Conflict, pathos, character
development, resolution all in colorful video!
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wed, 1 May 2024 16:17:21 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/1/2024 4:00 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> On Wed, 01 May 2024 20:33:13 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 5/1/2024 12:46 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>> I vaguely recall a minor scene in the _Hitchhiker's Guide_
>>>>>> novels, where a powerful galactic race assembled a vast and mighty fleet
>>>>>> of starships to mount a well-planned and devastating attack on earth;
>>>>>> but found, to their destruction, that they were much tinier than a
>>>>>> sheepdog's flea. Or something like that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Correct though note that Hitch hikers guide to the Galaxy is a radio play
>>>>> with book/film adaptions ie cut down/abridged for those formats.
>>>>
>>>> Right. I enjoyed the books, but could never get into the other formats.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I do little of either now, but certainly back in the day used to be well
>>> read as I’d have podcasts/audiobooks etc on a iPod during podcasts first
>>> day in the sun as you where!
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> I read and I also write. I'm doing the final editing of my latest book
>> right now.
>>
>> I'm a realist so I have no use for science fiction of any kind. And
>> as a realist, I also have no use for most "realism" TV, although
>> sometimes I do watch "Cops," and it's new version called "Live PD."
>
>For 'true crime', can't beat the overnight news in this era
>of dash cams and body cams. Conflict, pathos, character
>development, resolution all in colorful video!

Crime is ramping up around here, too, mostly Tampa and St Pete. We're
not a bad as the Blue Cities up north, though.

On 5/1/2024 4:34 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> On Wed, 1 May 2024 16:17:21 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 5/1/2024 4:00 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>> On Wed, 01 May 2024 20:33:13 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 5/1/2024 12:46 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> I vaguely recall a minor scene in the _Hitchhiker's Guide_
>>>>>>> novels, where a powerful galactic race assembled a vast and mighty fleet
>>>>>>> of starships to mount a well-planned and devastating attack on earth;
>>>>>>> but found, to their destruction, that they were much tinier than a
>>>>>>> sheepdog's flea. Or something like that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Correct though note that Hitch hikers guide to the Galaxy is a radio play
>>>>>> with book/film adaptions ie cut down/abridged for those formats.
>>>>>
>>>>> Right. I enjoyed the books, but could never get into the other formats.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I do little of either now, but certainly back in the day used to be well
>>>> read as I’d have podcasts/audiobooks etc on a iPod during podcasts first
>>>> day in the sun as you where!
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>> I read and I also write. I'm doing the final editing of my latest book
>>> right now.
>>>
>>> I'm a realist so I have no use for science fiction of any kind. And
>>> as a realist, I also have no use for most "realism" TV, although
>>> sometimes I do watch "Cops," and it's new version called "Live PD."
>>
>> For 'true crime', can't beat the overnight news in this era
>> of dash cams and body cams. Conflict, pathos, character
>> development, resolution all in colorful video!
>
> Crime is ramping up around here, too, mostly Tampa and St Pete. We're
> not a bad as the Blue Cities up north, though.

A contentious point. As with the Soviet 5-year plans and a
small town in Minnesota, results are always reported 'above
average'. Turns out that not reporting big chunks of data
makes year-on-year comparisons tenuous at best. Add in slow
or no police response in major cities and 'reported crime'
falls as well.

Headline here says it all:
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2023/11/03/violent-crime-property-data-nibrs-ucr-fbi-2022
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 01 May 2024 20:33:13 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 5/1/2024 12:46 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> I vaguely recall a minor scene in the _Hitchhiker's Guide_
>>>>> novels, where a powerful galactic race assembled a vast and mighty fleet
>>>>> of starships to mount a well-planned and devastating attack on earth;
>>>>> but found, to their destruction, that they were much tinier than a
>>>>> sheepdog's flea. Or something like that.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Correct though note that Hitch hikers guide to the Galaxy is a radio play
>>>> with book/film adaptions ie cut down/abridged for those formats.
>>>
>>> Right. I enjoyed the books, but could never get into the other formats.
>>>
>>
>> I do little of either now, but certainly back in the day used to be well
>> read as I’d have podcasts/audiobooks etc on a iPod during podcasts first
>> day in the sun as you where!
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> I read and I also write. I'm doing the final editing of my latest book
> right now.
>
> I'm a realist so I have no use for science fiction of any kind. And
> as a realist, I also have no use for most "realism" TV, although
> sometimes I do watch "Cops," and it's new version called "Live PD."
>
They still will be editing to tell the story, unless it’s simply a live
feed of a body cam, ie what they don’t show and so on, after all most of
the time it’s mundane and probably fairly dull.

It’s really not my thing as tends to be sensationalist.

Roger Merriman