On 28/09/2021 8:46 am, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2021-09-27 06:25, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 27/09/2021 04.56, nospam wrote:
>
>>> the raspberry pi does *not* have rs-232. what are you smoking?
>>
>> Complain to google :-p
>
> Learn the difference between what you can add to a pi and what it has
> out of the box.
>
> The pi does have serial data level ports at 0 to 3.3V.  But that is not,
> at all, RS-232.  A RS-232 receiver might read from the Pi.  But sending
> RS-232 from a device directly to the UART input on the Pi could result
> in damage to the Pi.
>
>

Nobody suggested 'native'.

geoff

In article <erSdncwoQM_ips_8nZ2dnUU7-VOdnZ2d@giganews.com>, geoff
<geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote:

> >
> >>> the raspberry pi does *not* have rs-232. what are you smoking?
> >>
> >> Complain to google :-p
> >
> > Learn the difference between what you can add to a pi and what it has
> > out of the box.
> >
> > The pi does have serial data level ports at 0 to 3.3V.  But that is not,
> > at all, RS-232.  A RS-232 receiver might read from the Pi.  But sending
> > RS-232 from a device directly to the UART input on the Pi could result
> > in damage to the Pi.
> >
> >
>
> Nobody suggested 'native'.

carlos did.

On 28/09/2021 1:35 am, Whisky-dave wrote:

>>
>> geoff
> Really there was 9, 15, 25 and 37 way and a 50 way which I never got to use.

You found 9, 15, 25, 37, and 50 difficult to differentiate between ?

> Then was it crossed or straight was DCD used , then there was busy ackw
> and x-on x-off and many other pins that I've luckily mostly forgot about.
> all just for 8 bit communication, of course have a standard 25 pins when you only really needed pins 2,3, & gnd
> did seem a bit wasteful expense wise.

That's not the connector - that is one particular use and protocol
being put through it.

> I just don't think govenments should have much say in these sort of areas.

Agreed.

geoff

On 27/09/2021 19.09, Bill W wrote:
> On Sep 27, 2021, Carlos E. R. wrote
> (in article <4eq82ixd1o.ln2@minas-tirith.valinor>):
>
>> On 27/09/2021 14.20, Whisky-dave wrote:
>>> On Saturday, 25 September 2021 at 02:48:40 UTC+1, geoff wrote:
>>>> On 25/09/2021 12:22 am, Whisky-dave wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, 23 September 2021 at 16:19:09 UTC+1, David Taylor wrote:
>>>>>> On 23/09/2021 15:56, RichA wrote:
>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58665809
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Makes a lot of sense. Even Apple are USB-C now.
>>>>>
>>>>> Make a bit of sense but as it;s government and the EU
>>>>> it won't make any long term sense.
>>>>>
>>>>> The day will come when USB-C can;t suplpy enough power to charge a phone
>>>>> in 5mins
>>>>> which may well happen as batter technology changes over time.
>>>>>
>>>>> I remmeber when speed standards for communication were up to 9600 baud.
>>>>> Imaging having to stick to that over a RS232 25 way D-connector.
>>>> That was nothing to do with any government or regional pact decree.
>>>> That was an industry-derived standard.
>>>
>>> and the 'industry' was allowed to change it's standard.
>>>
>>> Leave this sort of thing to a government and it'll be politically controlled
>>> and may take a decade before things change, a bit like trade deals.
>>> That was my point.
>>
>> GSM came about from Governments joining, deciding and pushing it (in the
>> EU), and it has been very successful, taking over the world mobile phone
>> systems. Previous to the USA changing to it, providers used incompatible
>> systems.
>>
>> Changing and improving it has been no problem.
>
> Do you know what year it is?
>
Yes.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 27/09/2021 16.18, nospam wrote:
> In article <6pi82ix71l.ln2@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Still going on :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> no it isn't, other than for legacy devices, which area extremely rare.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cisco routers,
>>>
>>> some networking equipment does have a console serial port, but that's
>>> one of the rare exceptions. it's also legacy and not normally needed.
>>> the web ui or ssh is more than sufficient in nearly every case.
>>
>> Depends on what you have to do on the machine. In certain circumstances,
>> it is the only available method.
>
> that scenario is *extremely* rare.

Maybe, maybe not. In the Cisco training I had, the first initialization
of the router had be done always using the serial port.

If you read docs on flashing normal routers with alternative firmware,
several of them you have to access via a serial port, after opening it
up to expose the pins; in some cases the pins do not exist, you have to
actually solder the cables or solder a connector. Just 3 pins are
needed. You need that because those routers are not intended to be
flashed by their owners and do not expose a function on their normal
management interface.

I have a friend working with security hardware, and often his routine
includes connecting to the machines via serial ports. One of his grudges
is that modern laptops don't have it, but he needs it. Has to use an USB
to serial port converter.

My own desktop machine has both a serial port and a parallel port in the
board. Bought recently. It is used for kernel debugging.

>>>> for example. Or IoT gadgets.
>>>
>>> such as which ones?
>>
>> Ask google, it said so.
>
> in other words, you made it up.

No, I did not made it up. I knew of it, so I googled for confirmation.
Contrary to you, I don't know it all.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

In article <1q0a2ixp96.ln2@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> >>>>
> >>>> Cisco routers,
> >>>
> >>> some networking equipment does have a console serial port, but that's
> >>> one of the rare exceptions. it's also legacy and not normally needed.
> >>> the web ui or ssh is more than sufficient in nearly every case.
> >>
> >> Depends on what you have to do on the machine. In certain circumstances,
> >> it is the only available method.
> >
> > that scenario is *extremely* rare.
>
> Maybe, maybe not. In the Cisco training I had, the first initialization
> of the router had be done always using the serial port.

old ones did. i have an old cisco switch that requires using the serial
console to do a factory reset. otherwise, everything else can be done
via ssh or web. it's highly annoying.

that does not apply to recent equipment, from cisco and others.

> If you read docs on flashing normal routers with alternative firmware,
> several of them you have to access via a serial port, after opening it
> up to expose the pins; in some cases the pins do not exist, you have to
> actually solder the cables or solder a connector. Just 3 pins are
> needed. You need that because those routers are not intended to be
> flashed by their owners and do not expose a function on their normal
> management interface.

very few routers need a jtag to flash alternate firmware which is not
rs-232 anyway.

in nearly every case, alternate firmware can be installed via the web
ui or possibly tftp. i've been flashing routers for *years*.

> I have a friend working with security hardware, and often his routine
> includes connecting to the machines via serial ports. One of his grudges
> is that modern laptops don't have it, but he needs it. Has to use an USB
> to serial port converter.

not all security hardware does. whatever your friend has is another
rare exception.

if rs-232 was common, it would be included on recent laptops. it's not,
so it isn't.

> My own desktop machine has both a serial port and a parallel port in the
> board. Bought recently. It is used for kernel debugging.

there is no need for a serial port for kernel debugging.

> >>>> for example. Or IoT gadgets.
> >>>
> >>> such as which ones?
> >>
> >> Ask google, it said so.
> >
> > in other words, you made it up.
>
> No, I did not made it up. I knew of it, so I googled for confirmation.
> Contrary to you, I don't know it all.

either cite iot gadgets that have an rs232 port or admit you made it up.

iot devices, such as thermostats, lightbulbs, smart switches. water
leak sensors, air quality monitors, temp/humidity sensors, smoke
alarms, door locks, garage door openers, intrusion alarms, voice
assistants and many others all communicate *wirelessly*, via wifi,
bluetooth, zigbee and/or matter/thread.

they do *not* use rs-232.

On Monday, 27 September 2021 at 22:50:28 UTC+1, geoff wrote:
> On 28/09/2021 1:35 am, Whisky-dave wrote:
>
> >>
> >> geoff
> > Really there was 9, 15, 25 and 37 way and a 50 way which I never got to use.
> You found 9, 15, 25, 37, and 50 difficult to differentiate between ?
Not me persoanlly as I almost grew up with them.

But when someone asked me for a RS232 lead...
But tell me why most terminals needed a 25 pin lead when all they really needed was pins 2 , 3 and 7, a few devices
needed 8 and 20 sometimes crossed sometimes not.
Even in the early days of ethernet we had crossed leads and straight leads, then I think it was the an iBook
was the first computer that it didn;t matter as it auto dectected which wire transmitted and which recived.
Now few have to think whether they need a X or S lead , most now use wireless anyway.
Working in an electronics and computer lab we had so many adapters , gender changers, we also had SCSI,
while HP seemed to like IEEE standard, there were parellel printers, serial printers.Then we had
IBM AT to connect keyboards and mice with a DIN type connector similar to audio hi-Fi ,
Apple used a mini-DIN then PC went PS/2, then Apple went USB , then PCs went USB
and everything is mostly USB now, but we have USB A, B square, C, mini, micro....
There's also a range of mains connectors mayb ethe worlkd should settle on one of those.
We have UK Euro US and many other odd ones, and perhaps all cars should use the same tyre size.
Maybe electric cars should all have the same charging port, forget about any new fast charge options
that are in the pipeline.

> > Then was it crossed or straight was DCD used , then there was busy ackw
> > and x-on x-off and many other pins that I've luckily mostly forgot about.
> > all just for 8 bit communication, of course have a standard 25 pins when you only really needed pins 2,3, & gnd
> > did seem a bit wasteful expense wise.
> That's not the connector - that is one particular use and protocol
> being put through it.

Yes so now we have the USB 'protocol' but still have differnt connectors.
Same with HDMI .

> > I just don't think govenments should have much say in these sort of areas.
> Agreed.

Well perhaps if I believed anyone in govenment has a clue about technology I might trust them,
but from leaving CD, laptops , paperwork in cabs and public transport, sending out emails
to everyone on their list exposing translators and the like to terrorists, personlly I;d rather the best innovators
set standards for the future.
>
> geoff

On 2021-09-27 17:45, geoff wrote:
> On 28/09/2021 8:46 am, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2021-09-27 06:25, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>> On 27/09/2021 04.56, nospam wrote:
>>
>>>> the raspberry pi does *not* have rs-232. what are you smoking?
>>>
>>> Complain to google :-p
>>
>> Learn the difference between what you can add to a pi and what it has
>> out of the box.
>>
>> The pi does have serial data level ports at 0 to 3.3V.  But that is
>> not, at all, RS-232.  A RS-232 receiver might read from the Pi.  But
>> sending RS-232 from a device directly to the UART input on the Pi
>> could result in damage to the Pi.
>>
>>
>
> Nobody suggested 'native'.

Yes, people did, esp. Carlos several posts up.

--
"...there are many humorous things in this world; among them the white
man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages."
-Samuel Clemens

On 2021-09-26 23:46, geoff wrote:
> On 27/09/2021 3:56 pm, nospam wrote:
>> In article <lim72ixn1g.ln2@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.
>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>> it was anything *but* standard.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It was a standard, just that some failed to implement the standard
>>> correctly.
>>
>> not a very good standard since there was a substantial amount of
>> variance in how it could be implemented.
>>
>
>
> It was pretty much all there was at the time. So got used for all sorts
> of things.

RS-232 was so loosely defined that it often worked if one didn't even
meet the loose definition. Thus, at some point, connecting one
"correctly" implemented RS-232 port to another resulted in crickets, at
least in one direction. Been there, fried that chicken many times, and
kludged around it quite often too.

--
"...there are many humorous things in this world; among them the white
man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages."
-Samuel Clemens