What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They've got to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.

https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point

On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

>What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They've got to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.
>
>https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point

If it takes 15x as long to charge an EV as it takes to gas up an IC
car, there is going to be a giant real estate problem.

And California is working on making the power grid unreliable too.

On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 8:55:20 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 12:30:38 PM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
> > On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> > <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They've got to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.
> > >
> > >https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point
> >
> > If it takes 15x as long to charge an EV as it takes to gas up an IC
> > car, there is going to be a giant real estate problem.
> Twaddle. Cars are parked 95% of the time, and most EV's get charged relatively slowing from regular mains sockets, not by fast chargers.
> > And California is working on making the power grid unreliable too.
> The US enthusiasm for privatising natural monopolies is an ideology driven idiocy. The ENRON scandal should have made that clear, but the Gnatguy component in the US electorate is vocal and unwilling to notice evidence that they don't like.
>
> --
> Bozo Bill Sloman, Sydney

The Bozo conveniently ignores that the vast majority of car parking spots DO NOT have any EV charging whatsoever. And people living in apartments MUST rely on public EV charging stations. This is a BIG problem with relatively few EVs - imagine the problem when ALL of the cars are EVs.

Note that Bozo identifies a fictitious person call "Gnatguy" who has NEVER posted to SED.

On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 9:16:00 PM UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:

> ...the vast majority of car parking spots DO NOT have any EV charging whatsoever.

So? They don't have gas pumps either.
Most parking events are not for the purpose of car charging.

>And people living in apartments MUST rely on public EV charging stations.

.... also public roads and sidewalks and police and... all the services an apartment
dweller needs, why would charging stations be the important one?

On 23/09/2022 04:55, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 12:30:38 PM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
>> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They've got to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.
>>>
>>> https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point
>>
>> If it takes 15x as long to charge an EV as it takes to gas up an IC
>> car, there is going to be a giant real estate problem.
>
> Twaddle. Cars are parked 95% of the time, and most EV's get charged relatively slowing from regular mains sockets, not by fast chargers.

But that wasn't what the article was about. It was about the EV charging
experience during a 400 mile trip. I assume that sort of distance
wouldn't be particularly unusual in the USA or indeed Australia
(although it would be in the UK where I am).

What would have happened if the driver hadn't been able to find a
charging point at Interstate 5 at Frazier Mountain Park Road? Even then,
he could only get 9 miles of charge after a 75 minute wait. If he ran
out of petrol with an IC car, he'd probably be able to get a lift to a
garage and buy a gallon can of petrol and take it back to his vehicle,
which would be enough to get him 30 miles or so to a garage and to fill
up. With an EV, the ironic option would be to get a service vehicle with
a pretty big IC-powered generator in the back, and wait an hour for it
to charge his EV's batteries sufficiently to get enough range to reach a
charging station. Or are there EV service vehicles with large batteries
in the back with which to charge the stranded EV vehicle's batteries?

--

Jeff

On 2022-09-23, Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
> On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 2:16:00 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
>> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 8:55:20 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
>> > On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 12:30:38 PM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
>> > > On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
>> > > <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > >What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They've got to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.
>> > > >
>> > > >https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point
>> > >
>> > > If it takes 15x as long to charge an EV as it takes to gas up an IC car, there is going to be a giant real estate problem.
>> >
>> > Twaddle. Cars are parked 95% of the time, and most EV's get charged relatively slowing from regular mains sockets, not by fast chargers.
>> >
>> > > And California is working on making the power grid unreliable too.
>> >
>> > The US enthusiasm for privatising natural monopolies is an ideology driven idiocy. The ENRON scandal should have made that clear, but the Gnatguy component in the US electorate is vocal and unwilling to notice evidence that they don't like.
>>
>> Bill conveniently ignores that the vast majority of car parking spots DO NOT have any EV charging whatsoever.
>
> Not yet. Those used by EV car owners do tend to get them.
>
>>And people living in apartments MUST rely on public EV charging stations.
>
> I live in an apartment, and at our last owner's meeting we did discuss how we were going to provide charging for EV's parked in the basement.
>
> We do need smart chargers so the cost of the power fed into the car ends up getting paid for by the car's owner.

So parking is fixed allocation, or first come first served?

>Some of the speaker wanted the information passed back over wifi
>links, which is nuts when we've have fast data links over mains
>wiring for decades now

passed where?

easy enough to install fibre at the same time as the power wires, but
that's like half a solution.

>>This is a BIG problem with relatively few EVs - imagine the problem when ALL of the cars are EVs.
>
> By then the problem, such as it is, will have been solved.

True that.

>> Note that Bill identifies a fictitious person call "Gnatguy" who has NEVER posted to SED.
>
> If only he were fictitious. He's depressingly real, and easily identifiable. He uses the non-name Bozo quite a lot.

--
Jasen.

John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
news:sd6qihhdfcesh1orreokka5nnj8g4fuqpm@4ax.com:

> And California is working on making the power grid unreliable too.
>
And you are still an idiot.

Your whore mother should have worked on properly flushing you down
the toilet, the moment she shat you.

On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

>What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They've got to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.
>
>https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point

CA is now mandating only heat pumps for residential and commercial
buildings, no more NG for air and water heating.

Politicians can't do math.

On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 1:00:45 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They've got to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.
> >
> >https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point
> CA is now mandating only heat pumps for residential and commercial
> buildings, no more NG for air and water heating.

Actually that is a really good move. To me it only makes sense to have all the essential energy consuming loads using a single universal source of supply. Now instead of tens of millions of individual gas burning installations, they can use the NG to power centralized electrical energy generation that gets transmitted over the universal energy grid to power the loads using the single universal energy type, electricity. Open architecture doesn't work for something like this, it's just plain wasteful and inefficient.
>
> Politicians can't do math.

On Friday, 23 September 2022 at 18:51:30 UTC+1, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 1:00:45 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> > On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> > <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They've got to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.
> > >
> > >https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point
> > CA is now mandating only heat pumps for residential and commercial
> > buildings, no more NG for air and water heating.
> Actually that is a really good move. To me it only makes sense to have all the essential energy consuming loads using a single universal source of supply. Now instead of tens of millions of individual gas burning installations, they can use the NG to power centralized electrical energy generation that gets transmitted over the universal energy grid to power the loads using the single universal energy type, electricity. Open architecture doesn't work for something like this, it's just plain wasteful and inefficient.
> >
> > Politicians can't do math.

Its not quite so simple though. Burning gas to generate electricity is not
very efficient due to thermodynamic limitations. If resistive heating is used
then it is much less efficient that burning the gas locally. If heat pumps are used
then it might be more efficient if the temperature differential is small, but
not necessarily in climates where the heat pump needs to work with a large
temperature differential. So it might be a good idea in California, but less so
in many other places.

John

On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 2:08:53 PM UTC-4, John Walliker wrote:
> On Friday, 23 September 2022 at 18:51:30 UTC+1, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 1:00:45 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> > > On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> > > <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They've got to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.
> > > >
> > > >https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point
> > > CA is now mandating only heat pumps for residential and commercial
> > > buildings, no more NG for air and water heating.
> > Actually that is a really good move. To me it only makes sense to have all the essential energy consuming loads using a single universal source of supply. Now instead of tens of millions of individual gas burning installations, they can use the NG to power centralized electrical energy generation that gets transmitted over the universal energy grid to power the loads using the single universal energy type, electricity. Open architecture doesn't work for something like this, it's just plain wasteful and inefficient.
> > >
> > > Politicians can't do math.
> Its not quite so simple though. Burning gas to generate electricity is not
> very efficient due to thermodynamic limitations.

Right- it does have a place as renewable energy backup power...The technology hasn't exactly remained static. The gas turbines they have now burn much cleaner and have much improved efficiency. To listen to them tell it, everything has improved by a factor of two minimum.

>If resistive heating is used
> then it is much less efficient that burning the gas locally. If heat pumps are used
> then it might be more efficient if the temperature differential is small, but
> not necessarily in climates where the heat pump needs to work with a large
> temperature differential. So it might be a good idea in California, but less so
> in many other places.

You're working with old mythology about heat pumps and temperature differentials. All that was thrown out the window when variable speed compressor technology came into use. The old single speed technology uses a fixed pressure temperature cycle that is optimum for a narrow range of external conditions, and deviations from those conditions made operating efficiency plummet.. The variable speed technology eliminates the constraint on narrow range of operating conditions, and it maintains efficiency over a wide range of external conditions.

>
> John

On Fri, 23 Sep 2022 10:51:26 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 1:00:45 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
>> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They've got to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.
>> >
>> >https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point
>> CA is now mandating only heat pumps for residential and commercial
>> buildings, no more NG for air and water heating.
>
>Actually that is a really good move. To me it only makes sense to have all the essential energy consuming loads using a single universal source of supply.

Which they are actively working to destroy.

> Now instead of tens of millions of individual gas burning installations, they can use the NG to power centralized electrical energy generation that gets transmitted over the universal energy grid to power the loads using the single universal energy type, electricity. Open architecture doesn't work for something like this, it's just plain wasteful and inefficient.

What's the efficiency of NG power plants making electricity to run
heat pumps (and resistive heaters when it's cold) ?

The politicos are hostile to NG. They want all renewables with battery
storage.

>
>>
>> Politicians can't do math.

On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 4:23:59 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Sep 2022 10:51:26 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 1:00:45 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> >> On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> >> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They've got to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.
> >> >
> >> >https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point
> >> CA is now mandating only heat pumps for residential and commercial
> >> buildings, no more NG for air and water heating.
> >
> >Actually that is a really good move. To me it only makes sense to have all the essential energy consuming loads using a single universal source of supply.
> Which they are actively working to destroy.
> > Now instead of tens of millions of individual gas burning installations, they can use the NG to power centralized electrical energy generation that gets transmitted over the universal energy grid to power the loads using the single universal energy type, electricity. Open architecture doesn't work for something like this, it's just plain wasteful and inefficient.
> What's the efficiency of NG power plants making electricity to run
> heat pumps (and resistive heaters when it's cold) ?

Modern heat pumps shouldn't have to run resistive heaters anymore. The heater strip should be standby heating for equipment failure.
The outdoor units use a heater for periodic de-icing but it's not much- and they can actually replace that with a hot gas defrost if they haven't already.

The old fogeys don't think a heater is heating if it's not blowing 140oF air out the plenum.

The cheapskates need to upgrade the insulation performance of their homes, and that includes windows and doors.

>
> The politicos are hostile to NG. They want all renewables with battery
> storage.
> >
> >>
> >> Politicians can't do math.

On 2022-09-23, Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
> On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 10:00:55 PM UTC+10, Jasen Betts wrote:
>> On 2022-09-23, Anthony William Sloman <bill....@ieee.org> wrote:
>> > On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 2:16:00 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
>> >> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 8:55:20 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
>> >> > On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 12:30:38 PM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
>> >> > > On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
>> >> > > <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > >What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They've got to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point
>> >> > >
>> >> > > If it takes 15x as long to charge an EV as it takes to gas up an IC car, there is going to be a giant real estate problem.
>> >> >
>> >> > Twaddle. Cars are parked 95% of the time, and most EV's get charged relatively slowing from regular mains sockets, not by fast chargers.
>> >> >
>> >> > > And California is working on making the power grid unreliable too.
>> >> >
>> >> > The US enthusiasm for privatising natural monopolies is an ideology driven idiocy. The ENRON scandal should have made that clear, but the Gnatguy component in the US electorate is vocal and unwilling to notice evidence that they don't like.
>> >>
>> >> Bill conveniently ignores that the vast majority of car parking spots DO NOT have any EV charging whatsoever.
>> >
>> > Not yet. Those used by EV car owners do tend to get them.
>> >
>> >>And people living in apartments MUST rely on public EV charging stations.
>> >
>> > I live in an apartment, and at our last owner's meeting we did discuss how we were going to provide charging for EV's parked in the basement.
>> >
>> > We do need smart chargers so the cost of the power fed into the car ends up getting paid for by the car's owner.
>>
>> So parking is fixed allocation, or first come first served?
>
> Fixed allocation, but a smart charger can work out who owns the car and sort out where the bill goes. The Internet of Things should be able to manage that. Every car in our garage has a transponder that tells the New South Wales toll road system when it has entered and and left a toll road, so that the car owner gets the bill. It could give the smart charger the same information though I doubt that the toll road charging system would want to branch out into handling electricity bills as well.

A power cable cable originating at their energy meter can do that too,
possibly even a remote current transformer if they are using CT meters.

>> >Some of the speakers wanted the information passed back over wifi links, which is nuts when we've have fast data links over mains wiring for decades now.
>>
>> passed where?
>
> Onto the web.

seems this is going to make their charging more expensive.

>> easy enough to install fibre at the same time as the power wires, but that's like half a solution.
>
> There's fibre to the building anyway.

The fibre can go next to power wires in a conduit, SELV signal in a
cat5 can't.

--
Jasen.

On Friday, 23 September 2022 at 13:23:59 UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
...
> What's the efficiency of NG power plants making electricity to run
> heat pumps (and resistive heaters when it's cold) ?

In the region of 60-65% for CCGT power plants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_cycle_power_plant

A normal residential natural gas furnace has an efficiency in the region of 70-80%. Condensing ones can do better.

> The politicos are hostile to NG. They want all renewables with battery
> storage.
> >
> >>
> >> Politicians can't do math.

Maybe you don't understand the assumptions and goals.

kw

On Friday, 23 September 2022 at 05:00:55 UTC-7, Jasen Betts wrote:
....
> > We do need smart chargers so the cost of the power fed into the car ends up getting paid for by the car's owner.
> So parking is fixed allocation, or first come first served?
> >Some of the speaker wanted the information passed back over wifi
> >links, which is nuts when we've have fast data links over mains
> >wiring for decades now
> passed where?

The SAE standard for CCS has a method for data to pass from the car to the charging station. It actually does use a Power Line Communication standard although it is carried over one of the J1772 control lines.

From there the billing information goes to the station vendor.

Tesla already worked out those details many years ago so it is automatic from the users point of view - just plug the car in and it charges and the fees are assigned to your account. In Tesla's case the fees are viewable from the main display in the car.

Other charging providers are still working on convenient solutions that don't involve swiping cards or other activities to initiate charging but over the next couple of years I would expect them to be widespread.

kw

On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 1:17:30 AM UTC-4, whit3rd wrote:
> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 9:16:00 PM UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
>
> > ...the vast majority of car parking spots DO NOT have any EV charging whatsoever.
>
> So? They don't have gas pumps either.
> Most parking events are not for the purpose of car charging.
> >And people living in apartments MUST rely on public EV charging stations..
> ... also public roads and sidewalks and police and... all the services an apartment
> dweller needs, why would charging stations be the important one?

Come on. Give the guy credit when he is right. If we want BEVs to work, we are going to have to put charging points at every parking space in the country. It is simply not possible to put 10 kWh into a vehicle unless it is always plugged in, 24/7 other than the time it is being driven. 10 kWh is an ENORMOUS amount of electrical power. That's almost as much as used by your electric hot water heater!!!

Oh, that's right, they are switching over to heat pumps for those. But I've never understood how that saves energy if the heater is inside the home. You suck heat out of the house and put it in the water, using a quarter of the electricity a straight heater would use. But how do you get the heat back into the house? In the winter this costs money. Do I misunderstand what's happening?

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 3:25:30 AM UTC-4, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 23/09/2022 04:55, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 12:30:38 PM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
> >> On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> >> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They've got to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.
> >>>
> >>> https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point
> >>
> >> If it takes 15x as long to charge an EV as it takes to gas up an IC
> >> car, there is going to be a giant real estate problem.
> >
> > Twaddle. Cars are parked 95% of the time, and most EV's get charged relatively slowing from regular mains sockets, not by fast chargers.
> But that wasn't what the article was about. It was about the EV charging
> experience during a 400 mile trip. I assume that sort of distance
> wouldn't be particularly unusual in the USA or indeed Australia
> (although it would be in the UK where I am).
>
> What would have happened if the driver hadn't been able to find a
> charging point at Interstate 5 at Frazier Mountain Park Road? Even then,
> he could only get 9 miles of charge after a 75 minute wait. If he ran
> out of petrol with an IC car, he'd probably be able to get a lift to a
> garage and buy a gallon can of petrol and take it back to his vehicle,
> which would be enough to get him 30 miles or so to a garage and to fill
> up. With an EV, the ironic option would be to get a service vehicle with
> a pretty big IC-powered generator in the back, and wait an hour for it
> to charge his EV's batteries sufficiently to get enough range to reach a
> charging station. Or are there EV service vehicles with large batteries
> in the back with which to charge the stranded EV vehicle's batteries?

Why do people who don't drive electric vehicles, get so wigged out by articles about how hard it is to charge electric vehicles???

What's the deal?

Most people who post in this group are old enough, that even with the 2035 mandate of some states, will never need to drive a BEV if they don't want to.

So why all the bellyaching? If you aren't going to drive a BEV, stop complaining about them. The industry and the charging infrastructure are not constants. They will grow and improve, so that, someday, if you live long enough to be forced to buy one, you may actually like driving a BEV... if you still have a license by then.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 1:00:45 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They've got to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.
> >
> >https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point
> CA is now mandating only heat pumps for residential and commercial
> buildings, no more NG for air and water heating.

If the heat pumps are in the living space... the HEATED living space, isn't the heat for the heat pump being paid for separately? So the heat pump water heater is just shifting the cost to the heating bill, rather than the electric bill, no?

--

Rick C.

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On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 6:50:31 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 4:23:59 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> > On Fri, 23 Sep 2022 10:51:26 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> > <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 1:00:45 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> > >> On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> > >> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They've got to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.
> > >> >
> > >> >https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point
> > >> CA is now mandating only heat pumps for residential and commercial
> > >> buildings, no more NG for air and water heating.
> > >
> > >Actually that is a really good move. To me it only makes sense to have all the essential energy consuming loads using a single universal source of supply.
> > Which they are actively working to destroy.
> > > Now instead of tens of millions of individual gas burning installations, they can use the NG to power centralized electrical energy generation that gets transmitted over the universal energy grid to power the loads using the single universal energy type, electricity. Open architecture doesn't work for something like this, it's just plain wasteful and inefficient.
> > What's the efficiency of NG power plants making electricity to run
> > heat pumps (and resistive heaters when it's cold) ?
> Modern heat pumps shouldn't have to run resistive heaters anymore. The heater strip should be standby heating for equipment failure.
> The outdoor units use a heater for periodic de-icing but it's not much- and they can actually replace that with a hot gas defrost if they haven't already.

I've never seen a heat pump with the heater on the outside coils. There is a backup heating element to provide heat when the heat pump can't handle the load. When the outside coil freezes, the electric element is turned on and the heat pump runs in A/C mode heating the outside coils from the inside air. Because the electric element is on, no one feels a cold draft.

> The old fogeys don't think a heater is heating if it's not blowing 140oF air out the plenum.
>
> The cheapskates need to upgrade the insulation performance of their homes, and that includes windows and doors.

That doesn't change the effectiveness of a heat pump.

--

Rick C.

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On Friday, 23 September 2022 at 18:44:23 UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
....
> If the heat pumps are in the living space... the HEATED living space, isn't the heat for the heat pump being paid for separately? So the heat pump water heater is just shifting the cost to the heating bill, rather than the electric bill, no?
>
Heat pump water heaters are not put in the heated space. In California they are typically in the garage or basement.

That space will admittedly get colder as heat is extracted.

kw

On 9/23/22 10:51, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 1:00:45 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
>> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They've got to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.
>>>
>>> https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point
>> CA is now mandating only heat pumps for residential and commercial
>> buildings, no more NG for air and water heating.
>
> Actually that is a really good move. To me it only makes sense to have all the essential energy consuming loads using a single universal source of supply. Now instead of tens of millions of individual gas burning installations, they can use the NG to power centralized electrical energy generation that gets transmitted over the universal energy grid to power the loads using the single universal energy type, electricity. Open architecture doesn't work for something like this, it's just plain wasteful and inefficient.
>
>>
>> Politicians can't do math.
Nor do they understand "single point of failure", and the implications
to the economy & national security.

On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 10:20:38 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
> On Friday, 23 September 2022 at 18:44:23 UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> ...
> > If the heat pumps are in the living space... the HEATED living space, isn't the heat for the heat pump being paid for separately? So the heat pump water heater is just shifting the cost to the heating bill, rather than the electric bill, no?
> >
> Heat pump water heaters are not put in the heated space. In California they are typically in the garage or basement.
>
> That space will admittedly get colder as heat is extracted.

Here most people end up finishing a basement where the water heater is installed. I've never seen on in a garage. If you have to turn off the water heater for some reason (like it's got a defective heating element) it could freeze in a garage. I guess they don't get much freezing weather in most of CA. Even so, as the ambient temps get colder, a heat pump becomes less effective and more costly. House heat pumps usually quit and switch to backup around freezing.

So if the water heater is in a heated space, you have to pay for the heat, then pay to move it into the water heater. That's not an improvement, I think... maybe if the heat source is really cheap, it works out. I just think most people buying them don't actually understand what is going on. I had to think about it for more than a moment the first time I saw one. Maybe I'm getting old.

--

Rick C.

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On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 10:17:30 PM UTC-7, whit3rd wrote:
> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 9:16:00 PM UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
>
> > ...the vast majority of car parking spots DO NOT have any EV charging whatsoever.
>
> So? They don't have gas pumps either.

How many cars do you see backed up waiting for gas? Most gas stations I go to I don't have to wait at all (Costco might be an exception). If it takes EIGHT HOURS to charge your EV you will give up and go home! It is a WHOLE DIFFERENT BALL GAME when it comes to EV charging - it is BAD now with a VERY SMALL percentage of EVs; wait until you get up to 50% and it will be a MESS! Especially if they start do rolling BLACKOUTS! You guys haven't thought this out, especially the senile pervert Lyin' Biden.
> Most parking events are not for the purpose of car charging.
> >And people living in apartments MUST rely on public EV charging stations..
> ... also public roads and sidewalks and police and... all the services an apartment

So the FUCK WHAT? I don't have to stand in line to use the fucking SIDEWALK, TWERP!

> dweller needs, why would charging stations be the important one?

Because they need to GET TO WORK, TWERP!

On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 10:58:08 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 2:16:00 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 8:55:20 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 12:30:38 PM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
> > > > On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> > > > <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They've got to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.
> > > > >
> > > > >https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point
> > > >
> > > > If it takes 15x as long to charge an EV as it takes to gas up an IC car, there is going to be a giant real estate problem.
> > >
> > > Twaddle. Cars are parked 95% of the time, and most EV's get charged relatively slowing from regular mains sockets, not by fast chargers.
> > >
> > > > And California is working on making the power grid unreliable too.
> > >
> > > The US enthusiasm for privatising natural monopolies is an ideology driven idiocy. The ENRON scandal should have made that clear, but the Gnatguy component in the US electorate is vocal and unwilling to notice evidence that they don't like.
> >
> > Bill conveniently ignores that the vast majority of car parking spots DO NOT have any EV charging whatsoever.
>
> Not yet. Those used by EV car owners do tend to get them.

Then WHEN! You libtards say it will just materialize out of thin air, pretty much like senile pervert Lyin' Biden. The situation now is DIRE reading reports from people trying to survive with the ill-conceived monsters.

> >And people living in apartments MUST rely on public EV charging stations..
> I live in an apartment, and at our last owner's meeting we did discuss how we were going to provide charging for EV's parked in the basement.
>
> We do need smart chargers so the cost of the power fed into the car ends up getting paid for by the car's owner. Some of the speaker wanted the information passed back over wifi links, which is nuts when we've have fast data links over mains wiring for decades now

Hey Bozo, that is PURE GIBBERISH! At best, you have a fairy tail, pie in the sky, nightmare dream of the future.

> >This is a BIG problem with relatively few EVs - imagine the problem when ALL of the cars are EVs.
> By then the problem, such as it is, will have been solved.

More PIE IN THE SKY!

>
> > Note that Bill identifies a fictitious person call "Gnatguy" who has NEVER posted to SED.
>
> If only he were fictitious. He's depressingly real, and easily identifiable. He uses the non-name Bozo quite a lot.

NO! No one has EVER posted on SED with that moniker!