I need to make some templates for my digitizing tablets.

AutoCAD distributed templates made out of acetate (?)
with printed legends that would hold up to the abrasion
of dragging the stylus around the tablet.

I initially assumed they just printed on the back
(reverse image). But, it looks like the image may,
in fact, be laminated between two clear sheets (?)

This would complicate the process. But, I'm guessing
that printing on the back might, by itself, be enough to
give some degree of durability (?)

And, I could always print replacements if that got to
be a problem.

I suspect the folks at the printshop won't be too
knowledgeable about dragging a stylus/puck across the
"print"...

On 2023-01-05 07:43, Don Y wrote:
> I need to make some templates for my digitizing tablets.
>
> AutoCAD distributed templates made out of acetate (?)
> with printed legends that would hold up to the abrasion
> of dragging the stylus around the tablet.
>
> I initially assumed they just printed on the back
> (reverse image).  But, it looks like the image may,
> in fact, be laminated between two clear sheets (?)
>
> This would complicate the process.  But, I'm guessing
> that printing on the back might, by itself, be enough to
> give some degree of durability (?)
>
> And, I could always print replacements if that got to
> be a problem.
>
> I suspect the folks at the printshop won't be too
> knowledgeable about dragging a stylus/puck across the
> "print"...

Long ago, before powerpoint, we made "transparencies" to project on
screens. You could buy that material that said that could be used on a
laser printer.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 1/5/2023 6:34 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-01-05 07:43, Don Y wrote:
>> I need to make some templates for my digitizing tablets.
>>
>> AutoCAD distributed templates made out of acetate (?)
>> with printed legends that would hold up to the abrasion
>> of dragging the stylus around the tablet.
>>
>> I initially assumed they just printed on the back
>> (reverse image).  But, it looks like the image may,
>> in fact, be laminated between two clear sheets (?)
>>
>> This would complicate the process.  But, I'm guessing
>> that printing on the back might, by itself, be enough to
>> give some degree of durability (?)
>>
>> And, I could always print replacements if that got to
>> be a problem.
>>
>> I suspect the folks at the printshop won't be too
>> knowledgeable about dragging a stylus/puck across the
>> "print"...
>
> Long ago, before powerpoint, we made "transparencies" to project on screens.
> You could buy that material that said that could be used on a laser printer.

I'm not worried about GETTING the image onto the media.
My concern is how well it will fare when you're dragging the
tip of a stylus across it and "pressing down to actuate".

I can try a B&W image on acetate (I have the "transparency stock"
here from my Phasers) to see if the image is durable... And, if
that works, do a color version at the local service bureau.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 2023-01-05, Don Y wrote:
> I need to make some templates for my digitizing tablets.
>
> AutoCAD distributed templates made out of acetate (?)
> with printed legends that would hold up to the abrasion
> of dragging the stylus around the tablet.
>
> I initially assumed they just printed on the back
> (reverse image). But, it looks like the image may,
> in fact, be laminated between two clear sheets (?)
>
> This would complicate the process. But, I'm guessing
> that printing on the back might, by itself, be enough to
> give some degree of durability (?)

For a one-off (or "test"), I'd consider printing on the back of a
transparency sheet to be fine.

However from what I recall, in general, those transparency sheets aren't
themselves all that durable -- to the point where your stylus may be
able to scratch them. So, for a long-term use sheet, laminating it would
probably be your best option.

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--
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> Wrote in message:r
> On 1/5/2023 6:34 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:> On 2023-01-05 07:43, Don Y wrote:>> I need to make some templates for my digitizing tablets.>>>> AutoCAD distributed templates made out of acetate (?)>> with printed legends that would hold up to the abrasion>> of dragging the stylus around the tablet.>>>> I initially assumed they just printed on the back>> (reverse image). But, it looks like the image may,>> in fact, be laminated between two clear sheets (?)>>>> This would complicate the process. But, I'm guessing>> that printing on the back might, by itself, be enough to>> give some degree of durability (?)>>>> And, I could always print replacements if that got to>> be a problem.>>>> I suspect the folks at the printshop won't be too>> knowledgeable about dragging a stylus/puck across the>> "print"...> > Long ago, before powerpoint, we made "transparencies" to project on screens. > You could buy that material that said that could be used on a laser printer.I'm not worried about GETTING the image onto the media.My concern is how well it will fare when you're dragging thetip of a stylus across it and "pressing down to actuate".I can try a B&W image on acetate (I have the "transparency st
ock"here from my Phasers) to see if the image is durable... And, ifthat works, do a color version at the local service bureau.

I used acetate when the dry transfer method started. Laser
printing on a acetate works. But I had grainy print, it may have
been my hp 4l at the time
.. You can transfer the toner with heat, but not all the toner
transfers.
I would say that reversing the image would help durability.

Cheers
--

----Android NewsGroup Reader----
https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

> This would complicate the process. But, I'm guessing
> that printing on the back might, by itself, be enough to
> give some degree of durability (?)

I have used back-printed overhead projector acetates as equipment front
panels and outdoor notices for many years and they have proved
surprisingly durable. They have not been subjected to abrasion, but
have been exposed to direct sunlight, vandals and even chewed by cows
(they didn't resist that very well).

My printer is a laser type, so only heatproof acetates can be used.
When they have been printed, I spray the printed side with white
cellulose car paint to show up the image and make the colours come up
good and strong. The paint coats must be very light with plenty of time
to dry between coats, otherwise the toner will dissolve and run.

Before going to the trouble of printing anything, why don't you just
take a plain sheet of acetate and scrub it heavily for some while - any
scratches will soon start to show when you hold it up to the light.
From that you can deduce how long it will last, but as the sheets are so
cheap you can print lots of spares.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

On 1/5/2023 9:28 AM, Martin Rid wrote:
> I used acetate when the dry transfer method started. Laser
> printing on a acetate works. But I had grainy print, it may have
> been my hp 4l at the time
> . You can transfer the toner with heat, but not all the toner
> transfers.

So, "grainy" meaning the blacks weren't "rich"? Edges weren't
"crisp"?

Would it look "professionally printed" -- or, amateurish?

> I would say that reversing the image would help durability.

That's what I would think. But, when I examined the AutoCAD
templates, the "ink/paint" didn't seem to be on *either* side
(so, I figured they realized the need to protect it from
abrasion regardless of where it was located -- top/bottom)

On 1/5/2023 9:25 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
> On 2023-01-05, Don Y wrote:
>> I need to make some templates for my digitizing tablets.
>
>> AutoCAD distributed templates made out of acetate (?)
>> with printed legends that would hold up to the abrasion
>> of dragging the stylus around the tablet.
>
>> I initially assumed they just printed on the back
>> (reverse image). But, it looks like the image may,
>> in fact, be laminated between two clear sheets (?)
>
>> This would complicate the process. But, I'm guessing
>> that printing on the back might, by itself, be enough to
>> give some degree of durability (?)
>
> For a one-off (or "test"), I'd consider printing on the back of a
> transparency sheet to be fine.
>
> However from what I recall, in general, those transparency sheets aren't
> themselves all that durable -- to the point where your stylus may be
> able to scratch them. So, for a long-term use sheet, laminating it would
> probably be your best option.

Yeah, I originally thought of using mylar as it's a considerably
more robust medium. But, my mylar is all semi-opaque. So, the idea
of printing on the reverse side doesn't seem like it would work
well (the image would appear cloudy).

I can't laminate anything larger than B-size (though I could bring
it to a service bureau for laminating).

I just keep looking at the AutoCAD templates and trying to sort out
how *they* made theirs as they obviously had this usage in mind.

On 1/5/2023 10:10 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> I have used back-printed overhead projector acetates as equipment front
> panels and outdoor notices for many years and they have proved

"outdoor notices"?

> surprisingly durable. They have not been subjected to abrasion, but
> have been exposed to direct sunlight, vandals and even chewed by cows
> (they didn't resist that very well).

I don't expect cows or vandals. But, when doing CAD work, you drag
the stylus around A LOT. Every keystroke is, effectively, a
stylus action (you define regions on the tablet that correspond to
specific keys/macros so you can just tap on them with the stylus
instead of having to move your hands back to the keyboard)

If I use a puck, then it's underside is typically felt lined
so likely less wear on the template surface. OTOH, there's a lot
more (puck) surface doing the wearing! :<

> My printer is a laser type, so only heatproof acetates can be used.

I have "low temperature" lasers -- LJ5p and 6p. My film comes
as leftovers from my Phasers (which use solid ink and heat).
But, I'm not sure of the relative temperatures involved.
I should explore that before risking the fuser in one of the
lasers...

> When they have been printed, I spray the printed side with white
> cellulose car paint to show up the image and make the colours come up
> good and strong.

Hmmm... that's an idea. I had just assumed printing the entire content
(e.g., "white", in your example).

> The paint coats must be very light with plenty of time
> to dry between coats, otherwise the toner will dissolve and run.

Thanks. The sort of information you'd regret not having once
bitten!

> Before going to the trouble of printing anything, why don't you just
> take a plain sheet of acetate and scrub it heavily for some while - any
> scratches will soon start to show when you hold it up to the light.
> From that you can deduce how long it will last, but as the sheets are so
> cheap you can print lots of spares.

Printing *some* spares makes sense. But, I'd not want to be replacing
them often as it requires recalibrating the tablet, each time (a
relatively trivial activity but takes time, nonetheless).

The "plastic" (?) that AutoCAD uses is really pretty thick -- I can
hold the template by one edge and it won't deflect under it's own
weight (by contrast, acetate is a limp noodle)

On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 1:48:32 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
> On 1/5/2023 9:25 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
> > On 2023-01-05, Don Y wrote:
> >> I need to make some templates for my digitizing tablets.
> >
> >> AutoCAD distributed templates made out of acetate (?)

> > However from what I recall, in general, those transparency sheets aren't
> > themselves all that durable -- to the point where your stylus may be
> > able to scratch them. So, for a long-term use sheet, laminating it would
> > probably be your best option.
> Yeah, I originally thought of using mylar as it's a considerably
> more robust medium. But, my mylar is all semi-opaque. So, the idea
> of printing on the reverse side doesn't seem like it would work
> well (the image would appear cloudy).

There are service bureaus here that can make washable durable adhesive labels on
mylar, for a price. Polycarbonate is another available option. Probably
something more complicated than a laser printer...

On 1/5/2023 4:35 PM, whit3rd wrote:
> On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 1:48:32 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
>> On 1/5/2023 9:25 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>> On 2023-01-05, Don Y wrote:
>>>> I need to make some templates for my digitizing tablets.
>>>
>>>> AutoCAD distributed templates made out of acetate (?)
>
>>> However from what I recall, in general, those transparency sheets aren't
>>> themselves all that durable -- to the point where your stylus may be
>>> able to scratch them. So, for a long-term use sheet, laminating it would
>>> probably be your best option.
>> Yeah, I originally thought of using mylar as it's a considerably
>> more robust medium. But, my mylar is all semi-opaque. So, the idea
>> of printing on the reverse side doesn't seem like it would work
>> well (the image would appear cloudy).
>
> There are service bureaus here that can make washable durable adhesive labels on
> mylar, for a price. Polycarbonate is another available option. Probably
> something more complicated than a laser printer...

Don't want labels as they'd present an uneven surface (if applied to the top)
and "look tacky" if pieced together on the underside.

Instead, want a single sheet ~12x18" with different graphics in different
areas of the sheet. This, for example, is a wireframe of the "stock" 12x12"
template:
<https://help.autodesk.com/sfdcarticles/img/0EM3A00000082o6>
Each little box represents a command/action that can be invoked by tapping the
stylus (or the puck) in that area. The largish area in the center (not
on top) maps to positions on the screen. So, you can directly point
to a portion of your design by suitably positioning the stylus in that
area. The really big area up top is for user programmable stuff... you'll
note there are no provisions to LABEL the regions you define, there!

Once you get a feel for "what's where", it's very efficient -- like a data
entry person with 10-key.

You can quickly type numbers using the numeric "menu" on the right side.
Or, pick from common angles, fractions, etc. You can invoke various "filters"
on items you've selected on the screen (e.g., "take the X coordinate of
this point... and the Y coordinate of this OTHER point... and use that
as the center for a cylinder having THIS height...")

[The configuration process lets you define "menu areas" (the blue, red,
cyan, violet callouts indicate the areas defined for THIS template) and
the associated commands (in a text file)]

There are also traditional pulldown menus but they are for weenies
(see "MenuBar" in the screen area)

You can attach the template to your tablet with these little "nibs"
affixed to the tablet (which fit into precut holes in the template
and justify/secure it properly). So, can have different templates
for different types of work (I had a friend who used to use AutoCAD
as an Etch-a-Sketch to layout PCBs <frown>)

On 2023-01-05, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-01-05 07:43, Don Y wrote:
>> I need to make some templates for my digitizing tablets.
>>
>> AutoCAD distributed templates made out of acetate (?)
>> with printed legends that would hold up to the abrasion
>> of dragging the stylus around the tablet.
>>
>> I initially assumed they just printed on the back
>> (reverse image).  But, it looks like the image may,
>> in fact, be laminated between two clear sheets (?)
>>
>> This would complicate the process.  But, I'm guessing
>> that printing on the back might, by itself, be enough to
>> give some degree of durability (?)
>>
>> And, I could always print replacements if that got to
>> be a problem.
>>
>> I suspect the folks at the printshop won't be too
>> knowledgeable about dragging a stylus/puck across the
>> "print"...
>
> Long ago, before powerpoint, we made "transparencies" to project on
> screens. You could buy that material that said that could be used on a
> laser printer.

Yes the printable transparencies were acetate (i think), I think you can still
get acetate sheets at stationers for use with binding machines. (also
used for making face-shields)

For extra durability print on acetate then run it through a document laminator.

If you want only one side laminated laminate two sheets at once and
then separate them.

Actually you can still buy trasparency film

--
Jasen.
pǝsɹǝʌǝɹ sʇɥƃᴉɹ ll∀

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

> On 1/5/2023 10:10 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> > I have used back-printed overhead projector acetates as equipment front
> > panels and outdoor notices for many years and they have proved
>
> "outdoor notices"?

Signage for a canal restoration project. Every sign needed to be
different and each one carried an unique QR code, so we couldn't afford
the setting-up costs of having them professionally printed.

We have also produced waymarks for "The Coal Canal Way" footpath. We
bought a batch of professional waymarks printed on polycarbonate but
found that in many locations we needed to wrap them around tubular metal
posts and the polycarbonate could only be set in a curve by a tedious
heat process. The acetate sheets could be wrapped around the post and
fixed with double-sided sticky tape as long as the area was thoroughly
cleaned with isopropanol first.

[...]
> If I use a puck, then it's underside is typically felt lined
> so likely less wear on the template surface. OTOH, there's a lot
> more (puck) surface doing the wearing! :<

The pressure will be distributed over a larger surface area, so the wear
might not be any worse. Beware a soft material like felt picking up
hard debris and scratching badly. A steel shaft in a brass bearing is
the classic example of that: the shaft wears more than the the brass
because of the abrasive debris that gets embedded in the brass.

[...]
> The "plastic" (?) that AutoCAD uses is really pretty thick -- I can
> hold the template by one edge and it won't deflect under it's own
> weight (by contrast, acetate is a limp noodle)

We often fixed our 'outdoor' notices onto a backing of fluted
polycarbonate boards of the type used by estate agents. We used
silicone mastic as the adhesive to avoid dissolving the printing. The
result probably wouldn't be smooth enough for your application.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

On 1/6/2023 2:17 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 1/5/2023 10:10 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>>> I have used back-printed overhead projector acetates as equipment front
>>> panels and outdoor notices for many years and they have proved
>>
>> "outdoor notices"?
>
> Signage for a canal restoration project. Every sign needed to be
> different and each one carried an unique QR code, so we couldn't afford
> the setting-up costs of having them professionally printed.

Oh, OK. I would have thought laminating *paper* but your
approach makes sense, as well.

> We have also produced waymarks for "The Coal Canal Way" footpath. We
> bought a batch of professional waymarks printed on polycarbonate but
> found that in many locations we needed to wrap them around tubular metal
> posts and the polycarbonate could only be set in a curve by a tedious
> heat process. The acetate sheets could be wrapped around the post and
> fixed with double-sided sticky tape as long as the area was thoroughly
> cleaned with isopropanol first.

But, in each of these cases, how long was the signage expected to last?
I wouldn't think acetate would fare well, over the long term (sun, heat,
rain, etc.)

> [...]
>> If I use a puck, then it's underside is typically felt lined
>> so likely less wear on the template surface. OTOH, there's a lot
>> more (puck) surface doing the wearing! :<
>
> The pressure will be distributed over a larger surface area, so the wear
> might not be any worse. Beware a soft material like felt picking up
> hard debris and scratching badly.

Exactly. A stylus has one point of contact. And, that is easily observable.
Puck has a large surface. Any debris that fell onto the tablet -- or, the
surrounding environs -- could easily become embedded in the underside of
the puck.

Mice have a sort of plastic (nylon?) gliding surface instead of something
felt-ish. I wonder why the pucks didn't go the same route?

OTOH, you can *replace* felt. I've never had any luck reattaching
one of those plastic glides once it came loose from the mouse
(and, if it gets deformed in any way... :< )

> A steel shaft in a brass bearing is
> the classic example of that: the shaft wears more than the the brass
> because of the abrasive debris that gets embedded in the brass.
>
>> The "plastic" (?) that AutoCAD uses is really pretty thick -- I can
>> hold the template by one edge and it won't deflect under it's own
>> weight (by contrast, acetate is a limp noodle)
>
> We often fixed our 'outdoor' notices onto a backing of fluted
> polycarbonate boards of the type used by estate agents. We used
> silicone mastic as the adhesive to avoid dissolving the printing. The
> result probably wouldn't be smooth enough for your application.

The material I use for (thermal) laminating might approximate the
thickness/rigidity of the AutoCAD template. But, I don't have it
in sizes greater than 11x17 (nominal).

I think the commercial laminators use an *adhesive* film that they
just apply to the surface(s). This seems to be much thinner...
almost like (oversized) cellophane tape.

I will stop at the local service bureau to see what options they
can suggest as they will likely have to do the work for me
(I can no longer print 12x18). I'll bring along the AutoCAD templates
so they can get an idea of what I'm after. I'm sure they aren't
experts on "materials" but, hopefully, can tell me about process
capabilities.

On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 7:43:16 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
> On 1/5/2023 4:35 PM, whit3rd wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 1:48:32 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
> >> On 1/5/2023 9:25 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
> >>> On 2023-01-05, Don Y wrote:
> >>>> I need to make some templates for my digitizing tablets.
> >>>
> >>>> AutoCAD distributed templates made out of acetate (?)

> > There are service bureaus here that can make washable durable adhesive labels on
> > mylar, for a price. Polycarbonate is another available option. Probably
> > something more complicated than a laser printer...

> Don't want labels as they'd present an uneven surface (if applied to the top)
> and "look tacky" if pieced together on the underside.

Oh, they have a printing process that can generate non-adhesive
printed-on-back film. The 'laser printer' solutions, though, are usually
acetate or mylar with a film on one side that takes some particular kind
of pigment well; not intended for durability, unless you sandwich with a bottom film
of some sort. I suspect the label-build process is good for what you want.

I'm talking about a full-size single print, not a pasteup of dozens of small labels.

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

> On 1/6/2023 2:17 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> > Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> On 1/5/2023 10:10 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
[...]
> > We have also produced waymarks for "The Coal Canal Way" footpath. We
> > bought a batch of professional waymarks printed on polycarbonate but
> > found that in many locations we needed to wrap them around tubular metal
> > posts and the polycarbonate could only be set in a curve by a tedious
> > heat process. The acetate sheets could be wrapped around the post and
> > fixed with double-sided sticky tape as long as the area was thoroughly
> > cleaned with isopropanol first.
>
> But, in each of these cases, how long was the signage expected to last?
> I wouldn't think acetate would fare well, over the long term (sun, heat,
> rain, etc.)

Some of our first QR Code 'targets' are still readable after 5 years.
That part of the project was abandoned when we discovered that mobile
'phone coverage in the valley where the canal ran varied from lousy to
non-existant. Most of our A4 signs have succumbed to vandalism, rather
than weather, after 5 years.

The double-sided sticky roundels have been up about a year and the only
ones missing are those torn down by objectionable locals in the first
week. The others look fine and haven't shown any signs of fading yet.

[...]
> I think the commercial laminators use an *adhesive* film that they
> just apply to the surface(s). This seems to be much thinner...
> almost like (oversized) cellophane tape.

The adhesive is hot-melt glue and it is activated with a device like a
miniature domestic mangle, which squeezes out the air pockets with
silicone rubber rollers as it heats the glue. You can buy small home
laminators which use ready-made lamination pockets; the commercial
laminators use the laminating material in bulk from a roll, which works
out cheaper if you have a lot to do.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

On 1/5/2023 8:58 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:
> On 2023-01-05, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2023-01-05 07:43, Don Y wrote:
>>> I need to make some templates for my digitizing tablets.
>>>
>>> AutoCAD distributed templates made out of acetate (?)
>>> with printed legends that would hold up to the abrasion
>>> of dragging the stylus around the tablet.
>>>
>>> I initially assumed they just printed on the back
>>> (reverse image).  But, it looks like the image may,
>>> in fact, be laminated between two clear sheets (?)
>>>
>>> This would complicate the process.  But, I'm guessing
>>> that printing on the back might, by itself, be enough to
>>> give some degree of durability (?)
>>>
>>> And, I could always print replacements if that got to
>>> be a problem.
>>>
>>> I suspect the folks at the printshop won't be too
>>> knowledgeable about dragging a stylus/puck across the
>>> "print"...
>>
>> Long ago, before powerpoint, we made "transparencies" to project on
>> screens. You could buy that material that said that could be used on a
>> laser printer.
>
> Yes the printable transparencies were acetate (i think), I think you can still
> get acetate sheets at stationers for use with binding machines. (also
> used for making face-shields)
>
> For extra durability print on acetate then run it through a document laminator.
>
> If you want only one side laminated laminate two sheets at once and
> then separate them.
>
> Actually you can still buy trasparency film

I have some sheets from my Phasers. (transparencies are so
1980's that I never used any of the film)

Gambling that the temperatures were roughly the same,
I tried printing a monochrome image on a sample sheet
(low temperature laser).

It was acceptable, in terms of visual quality.

But, I can scrape the image off. So, wouldn't likely fare well
on the top surface (I could mirror the print and apply to the
bottom, if need be)

And, the film is too flimsy -- "limp noodle".

I'm going to bring the digitizer overlays to a shop,
tomorrow, and ask them if they can make something
similar (not just in appearance but, also, durability
and rigidity -- you don't want the overlay to "buckle"
while you're dragging the stylus across it.)

On 1/6/2023 2:07 PM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 1/6/2023 2:17 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>>> Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/5/2023 10:10 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> [...]
>>> We have also produced waymarks for "The Coal Canal Way" footpath. We
>>> bought a batch of professional waymarks printed on polycarbonate but
>>> found that in many locations we needed to wrap them around tubular metal
>>> posts and the polycarbonate could only be set in a curve by a tedious
>>> heat process. The acetate sheets could be wrapped around the post and
>>> fixed with double-sided sticky tape as long as the area was thoroughly
>>> cleaned with isopropanol first.
>>
>> But, in each of these cases, how long was the signage expected to last?
>> I wouldn't think acetate would fare well, over the long term (sun, heat,
>> rain, etc.)
>
> Some of our first QR Code 'targets' are still readable after 5 years.
> That part of the project was abandoned when we discovered that mobile
> 'phone coverage in the valley where the canal ran varied from lousy to
> non-existant. Most of our A4 signs have succumbed to vandalism, rather
> than weather, after 5 years.
>
> The double-sided sticky roundels have been up about a year and the only
> ones missing are those torn down by objectionable locals in the first
> week. The others look fine and haven't shown any signs of fading yet.

Plastics left out-of-doors, here, turn brittle in short order.
Folks quickly learn not to leave anything *in* plastic containers
as the containers just crack (spilling their contents). E.g.,
the fire-starting-liquid for the barbecue is in an old wine bottle,
here. The original plastic containers cracking (spilling flammable
fluid) in less time than it took to consume their contents!

I don't know how acetate would fare...

[where are you? or, where are the signs??]

>> I think the commercial laminators use an *adhesive* film that they
>> just apply to the surface(s). This seems to be much thinner...
>> almost like (oversized) cellophane tape.
>
> The adhesive is hot-melt glue and it is activated with a device like a
> miniature domestic mangle, which squeezes out the air pockets with

Heh heh hee... there's a word I've not heard in many decades!
"Wringer" perhaps being more common, here.

> silicone rubber rollers as it heats the glue. You can buy small home
> laminators which use ready-made lamination pockets; the commercial
> laminators use the laminating material in bulk from a roll, which works
> out cheaper if you have a lot to do.

My laminator is thermal. The "roll film", I think, is adhesive-based (?)

If I was making signs, I'd print on cardstock and laminate (double-sided).
This gives you a sturdy -- yet flexible -- long-lasting item.

I routinely make "luggage tags" with "notes" for various pieces
of kit that I own -- then "clip" them to the item. E.g., I
have one that lists the beep codes for my workstations (no,
I won't want to look it up if I'm faced with that issue!),
another explains the cryptic, semi-alphabetic two symbol error
codes for the washer, dryer, (why does "dS" mean "door not closed"?
and "nF"mean "water not turned on"?), etc.

My expectation is that the item will be discarded long before the note
shows signs of wear!

On 1/6/2023 2:04 PM, whit3rd wrote:
> On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 7:43:16 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
>> On 1/5/2023 4:35 PM, whit3rd wrote:
>>> On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 1:48:32 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
>>>> On 1/5/2023 9:25 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-01-05, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>> I need to make some templates for my digitizing tablets.
>>>>>
>>>>>> AutoCAD distributed templates made out of acetate (?)
>
>>> There are service bureaus here that can make washable durable adhesive labels on
>>> mylar, for a price. Polycarbonate is another available option. Probably
>>> something more complicated than a laser printer...
>
>> Don't want labels as they'd present an uneven surface (if applied to the top)
>> and "look tacky" if pieced together on the underside.
>
> Oh, they have a printing process that can generate non-adhesive
> printed-on-back film.

That would make sense if durability was an issue -- assuming the front
surface to be more "at risk" for printing than the rear.

> The 'laser printer' solutions, though, are usually
> acetate or mylar with a film on one side that takes some particular kind
> of pigment well; not intended for durability, unless you sandwich with a bottom film
> of some sort. I suspect the label-build process is good for what you want.
>
> I'm talking about a full-size single print, not a pasteup of dozens of small labels.

I'm going to bring my "samples" to them, tomorrow, and see what they can offer
(in terms of printing quality as well as "thickness/stiffness" of material).
I don't want to get started on the graphics until I know I can render them
into a useful form...

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Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

> On 1/6/2023 2:07 PM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
[...]
> > Some of our first QR Code 'targets' are still readable after 5 years.

> Plastics left out-of-doors, here, turn brittle in short order.
> Folks quickly learn not to leave anything *in* plastic containers
> as the containers just crack (spilling their contents). E.g.,
> the fire-starting-liquid for the barbecue is in an old wine bottle,
> here. The original plastic containers cracking (spilling flammable
> fluid) in less time than it took to consume their contents!
>
> I don't know how acetate would fare...
>
> [where are you? or, where are the signs??]

I'm in Bath (UK) and one of my trial signs is on a wall in my back
garden facing East-of-South, where it would get the maximum sunshine if
we ever had any. It has survived about 5 years but is beginning to show
signs of deterioration now. Most of the on-site ones succumbed to
vandalism before they had a chance to become brittle.

The others are sacttered along the Somersetshire Coal Canal, attached to
various surfaces and facing in various directions. Only cast-iron
finger posts and milestone plates seem to survive for decades in that
environment (until the scrap price of iron is high enough).

[...]
> > The adhesive is hot-melt glue and it is activated with a device like a
> > miniature domestic mangle, which squeezes out the air pockets...
>
> Heh heh hee... there's a word I've not heard in many decades!
> "Wringer" perhaps being more common, here.

Both words conjure up visions of muscular washerwomen, shrouded in
steam, vigorously attacking robust unidentifiable items of clothing.
>
> >...You can buy small home
> > laminators which use ready-made lamination pockets; the commercial
> > laminators use the laminating material in bulk from a roll, which works
> > out cheaper if you have a lot to do.

[...]
> My expectation is that the item will be discarded long before the note
> shows signs of wear!

My original reason for making a continuous laminator was to manufacture
glossy, gunge-poof, cardboard CD covers for a special children's talking
book issue. The project never came to fruition (market research showed
that nobody could be bothered to listen to them).

A lot of background research went into the acetate QR code project,
hence the test pieces still on my garden wall. Nobody spotted the
mobile 'phone reception problem until the project was well advanced.
However, it meant that the technology was tried and tested when we
started to find the need for explanatory and footpath diversion notices
to keep people informed as we began major canal reair work. With the
addition of fluted polypropylene backing board and some wooden posts, we
quickly adapted it to our needs.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

On 1/7/2023 4:29 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 1/6/2023 2:07 PM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> [...]
>>> Some of our first QR Code 'targets' are still readable after 5 years.
>
>> Plastics left out-of-doors, here, turn brittle in short order.
>> Folks quickly learn not to leave anything *in* plastic containers
>> as the containers just crack (spilling their contents). E.g.,
>> the fire-starting-liquid for the barbecue is in an old wine bottle,
>> here. The original plastic containers cracking (spilling flammable
>> fluid) in less time than it took to consume their contents!
>>
>> I don't know how acetate would fare...
>>
>> [where are you? or, where are the signs??]
>
> I'm in Bath (UK) and one of my trial signs is on a wall in my back
> garden facing East-of-South, where it would get the maximum sunshine if
> we ever had any. It has survived about 5 years but is beginning to show
> signs of deterioration now. Most of the on-site ones succumbed to
> vandalism before they had a chance to become brittle.

Ah. I'm in SW USA. Hot and sunny, all year 'round (actually, it's dropped to
about 20C, lately; 27C a week back...).

> The others are sacttered along the Somersetshire Coal Canal, attached to
> various surfaces and facing in various directions. Only cast-iron
> finger posts and milestone plates seem to survive for decades in that
> environment (until the scrap price of iron is high enough).
>
> [...]
>>> The adhesive is hot-melt glue and it is activated with a device like a
>>> miniature domestic mangle, which squeezes out the air pockets...
>>
>> Heh heh hee... there's a word I've not heard in many decades!
>> "Wringer" perhaps being more common, here.
>
> Both words conjure up visions of muscular washerwomen, shrouded in
> steam, vigorously attacking robust unidentifiable items of clothing.

Sure beats bancing them on a rock!

>>> ...You can buy small home
>>> laminators which use ready-made lamination pockets; the commercial
>>> laminators use the laminating material in bulk from a roll, which works
>>> out cheaper if you have a lot to do.
>
> [...]
>> My expectation is that the item will be discarded long before the note
>> shows signs of wear!
>
> My original reason for making a continuous laminator was to manufacture
> glossy, gunge-poof, cardboard CD covers for a special children's talking
> book issue. The project never came to fruition (market research showed
> that nobody could be bothered to listen to them).

I don't understand why you would need "continuous", then.
Or, do you mean continuous operation (like just keep feeding
in material and score it, later)?

> A lot of background research went into the acetate QR code project,
> hence the test pieces still on my garden wall. Nobody spotted the
> mobile 'phone reception problem until the project was well advanced.

Kinda seems like someone skipped a step in the process, eh? :>

> However, it meant that the technology was tried and tested when we
> started to find the need for explanatory and footpath diversion notices
> to keep people informed as we began major canal reair work. With the
> addition of fluted polypropylene backing board and some wooden posts, we
> quickly adapted it to our needs.

My goal, today, is to get to service bureau to see what they can
do for me -- armed with samples of what I already have (and am
aiming for).

Also need to track down a source of "lexan" so may see if they
have some really thin sheets that I can use, as well.

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

> On 1/7/2023 4:29 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
[...]
> > My original reason for making a continuous laminator was to manufacture
> > glossy, gunge-poof, cardboard CD covers for a special children's talking
> > book issue. The project never came to fruition (market research showed
> > that nobody could be bothered to listen to them).
>
> I don't understand why you would need "continuous", then.
> Or, do you mean continuous operation (like just keep feeding
> in material and score it, later)?

Yes, it was supposed to be a continuous process. As only one side
needed to be glossy the idea was to have a continuous slow-moving band
of laminating material, sticky side up, and place the cards on it
face-downwards so they would be drawn through the rollers and laminated.

The main failing was the tendency for the band to veer to one side
because the rollers bowed slightly in the middle under pressure. It was
rather like the way of keeping a flat belt centred on pulleys, the
pulley faces need to be slightly 'barrelled' - but in this case the
rollers were effectively 'waisted', giving the opposite effect, so the
band could not be kept on centre.
> > A lot of background research went into the acetate QR code project,
> > hence the test pieces still on my garden wall. Nobody spotted the
> > mobile 'phone reception problem until the project was well advanced.
>
> Kinda seems like someone skipped a step in the process, eh? :>

Very few people has smart 'phones in those days, so we had to beg those
who did have them to test our system. We were more concerned to get the
software right at that point in the project and couldn't ask our
press-ganged testers to spend hours wandering along muddy footpaths
(even if we had realised there might be a problem).

[...]
>
> My goal, today, is to get to service bureau to see what they can
> do for me

They will be the people with the widest experience of different
materials.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

On 1/7/2023 9:29 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 1/7/2023 4:29 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> [...]
>>> My original reason for making a continuous laminator was to manufacture
>>> glossy, gunge-poof, cardboard CD covers for a special children's talking
>>> book issue. The project never came to fruition (market research showed
>>> that nobody could be bothered to listen to them).
>>
>> I don't understand why you would need "continuous", then.
>> Or, do you mean continuous operation (like just keep feeding
>> in material and score it, later)?
>
> Yes, it was supposed to be a continuous process. As only one side
> needed to be glossy the idea was to have a continuous slow-moving band
> of laminating material, sticky side up, and place the cards on it
> face-downwards so they would be drawn through the rollers and laminated.

OK. Then, afterwards, separate the units -- instead of laminating them
AS individual units. (which is how I'd handle it with my laminator)

> The main failing was the tendency for the band to veer to one side
> because the rollers bowed slightly in the middle under pressure. It was
> rather like the way of keeping a flat belt centred on pulleys, the
> pulley faces need to be slightly 'barrelled' - but in this case the
> rollers were effectively 'waisted', giving the opposite effect, so the
> band could not be kept on centre.

Hmmm... I wonder how mine would fare if tasked with processing
something "long"? Over the course of 17-20 inches, I don't
see much skew/slippage -- the bigger problem is having the package
get sucked into the rollers before I've lined it up properly
("reverse" is tedious)

>>> A lot of background research went into the acetate QR code project,
>>> hence the test pieces still on my garden wall. Nobody spotted the
>>> mobile 'phone reception problem until the project was well advanced.
>>
>> Kinda seems like someone skipped a step in the process, eh? :>
>
> Very few people has smart 'phones in those days, so we had to beg those
> who did have them to test our system.

But, you could have verified signal with regular flip phones (?)

> We were more concerned to get the
> software right at that point in the project and couldn't ask our
> press-ganged testers to spend hours wandering along muddy footpaths
> (even if we had realised there might be a problem).
>
>> My goal, today, is to get to service bureau to see what they can
>> do for me
>
> They will be the people with the widest experience of different
> materials.

Sadly, I slept the day away. :< Every so often, the body insists
on catching up on the sleep deficit -- inadequately. :-/ But,
there's always "tomorrow"... (The Pork Dish day!)

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

> On 1/7/2023 9:29 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

> >... it was supposed to be a continuous process. As only one side
> > needed to be glossy the idea was to have a continuous slow-moving band
> > of laminating material, sticky side up, and place the cards on it
> > face-downwards so they would be drawn through the rollers and laminated.
>
> OK. Then, afterwards, separate the units -- instead of laminating them
> AS individual units. (which is how I'd handle it with my laminator)

Yes. The machine was made from a scrap 'domestic' laminator with failed
heating elements. I replaced them with aluminium-cased resistors and an
accurate PWM temperature control system, then mounted it in a frame with
a feed roll and a 'conveyor rollers' deck to allow the cards to be fed
in.
>
> > The main failing was the tendency for the band to veer to one side
> > because the rollers bowed slightly in the middle under pressure. It was
> > rather like the way of keeping a flat belt centred on pulleys, the
> > pulley faces need to be slightly 'barrelled' - but in this case the
> > rollers were effectively 'waisted', giving the opposite effect, so the
> > band could not be kept on centre.
>
> Hmmm... I wonder how mine would fare if tasked with processing
> something "long"? Over the course of 17-20 inches, I don't
> see much skew/slippage -- the bigger problem is having the package
> get sucked into the rollers before I've lined it up properly
> ("reverse" is tedious)

I found it ran for about 36 inches before it started to skew; once it
had started, there was no stopping it until the laminating film hit the
side guides and began to curl over.

>
> >>> A lot of background research went into the acetate QR code project,
> >>> hence the test pieces still on my garden wall. Nobody spotted the
> >>> mobile 'phone reception problem until the project was well advanced.
> >>
> >> Kinda seems like someone skipped a step in the process, eh? :>
> >
> > Very few people has smart 'phones in those days, so we had to beg those
> > who did have them to test our system.
>
> But, you could have verified signal with regular flip phones (?)

My own mobile 'phone has buttons (real physical ones) and was on EE at
the time. Their signal was totally unreliable, even in big towns, so it
wouldn't have told me much. Smart 'phones with multiple service
providers and QR code readers were very rare at the time, so we had
difficulty finding someone who owned one and was prepared to spend a day
wandering around the countryside. Eventually someone did volunteer -
but he never actually did anything about it.

[...]
> Sadly, I slept the day away. :< Every so often, the body insists
> on catching up on the sleep deficit -- inadequately. :-/ But,
> there's always "tomorrow"... (The Pork Dish day!)

I have days like that; they can create terrible backlogs if you have too
many of them.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk