https://amgreatness.com/2023/06/05/mike-rowe-is-on-a-mission-to-reverse-the-unspeakable-stupidity-of-devaluing-work/

He's right. Not everybody can play the college-essay game, and we
don't need millions of artists and sociologists and film-makers
surviving as Uber drivers and baristas.

"America is lending money it doesn't have to kids who can’t pay it
back to train them for jobs that no longer exist. That’s nuts."

We do need more electronics and manufacturing techs, more good HVAC
and auto mechanics, more good IT support people, more good PCB layout
people.

---------------

Have you noticed that many excellent PCB layout people are dyslexic?
They are great with geometry but bad with words. This shows up as bad
text placement and spelling (PARTS NOT USE) and inattention to
reference designators. That's one reason that women are usually better
at PCB layout. Boys are about 3x more likely to be dyslexic than
girls, and things like PCB layout may selectively attract dyslexics.

On 6/10/2023 12:09 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>
> https://amgreatness.com/2023/06/05/mike-rowe-is-on-a-mission-to-reverse-the-unspeakable-stupidity-of-devaluing-work/
>
> He's right. Not everybody can play the college-essay game, and we
> don't need millions of artists and sociologists and film-makers
> surviving as Uber drivers and baristas.

The kind of service-industry employee who tend to work as hard or harder
for their pay than just about anyone, but don't fit the rah-rah macho
real-man "no homo!" traditional type of masculine identity Mr. Rowe is
most concerned about.

> "America is lending money it doesn't have to kids who can’t pay it
> back to train them for jobs that no longer exist. That’s nuts."
>
> We do need more electronics and manufacturing techs, more good HVAC
> and auto mechanics, more good IT support people, more good PCB layout
> people.

There's not much "cool" about the boss making a dollar while you make a
dime, putting in way more hours than he does while he's off on his
yacht, meanwhile you don't even get paid leave!

<https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/11/rail-strike-why-the-railroads-wont-give-in-on-paid-leave-psr-precision-scheduled-railroading.html>

But how to make that in any way "cool" tends to be the inevitable
conundrum of capitalist societies with large wealth disparity.

Yes what will they do to make work "cool" again? I'm interested in what
Mike's ideas are. Management tends to be open to all solutions that
don't involve spending any money but within those constraints there's
flexibility, maybe offer free passes to the local "blame the gays" rally.

While I agree with you that our education system does a lousy job of helping people find their place in the world, where they can earn a living and build a life for themselves. And I agree with you that the meritocracy devalues skills compared to knowledge, even though skills can be harder to obtain and more useful in the long run than knowledge. But skills can become obsolete very quickly. I got my start in engineering as a PCB designer on computer, while there were still drafters working by hand to maintain existing designs. I would use these scanning tables to convert hand drawn schematics into computerized ones, slowly putting people out of work. What happens to your PCB designers when they get replaced by AI?

The reason for these over-priced community college degrees is that high school degrees are almost worthless. All a high school proves is that you achieved minimum basic skills, and then the education is not equivalent among the students. We should end high school after the 10th grade. You've achieved minimum basic skills. Then hand out tuition vouchers for two to four year schools with advanced degrees that will mean something on a resume. And yes we should include skill training but it needs include a general enough knowledge base to last a lifetime. Having the state pay for education up front, allows them to negotiate costs up front instead of dealing with this nonsense of uncontrolled borrowing.
We should get kids into college earlier and get the alcohol off campus. Get kids
into the workforce at a younger age and get more kids to go for advanced degrees.

On 6/10/2023 12:09 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>
> https://amgreatness.com/2023/06/05/mike-rowe-is-on-a-mission-to-reverse-the-unspeakable-stupidity-of-devaluing-work/
>
> He's right. Not everybody can play the college-essay game, and we
> don't need millions of artists and sociologists and film-makers
> surviving as Uber drivers and baristas.
>
> "America is lending money it doesn't have to kids who can’t pay it
> back to train them for jobs that no longer exist. That’s nuts."
>
> We do need more electronics and manufacturing techs, more good HVAC
> and auto mechanics, more good IT support people, more good PCB layout
> people.
>

Incidentally a number of those "real jobs" like e.g. auto mechanic are
very physically taxing (in a bad way); doing labor-intensive jobs for
long periods of time in a country with as inconsistent and expensive a
health care system as the US is a risky proposition.

A relative of mine is facing multiple orthopedic surgeries well before
age 60 due to being employed in the vehicle maintenance field,
fortunately he works for a major logistics company that's more
understanding/generous than some.

Not everyone in the maintenance field is so fortunate; the vocational
rehab centers are full of trade guys in their 60s, 50s, even 40s, who
have aged or injured out of their chosen trade and their employer just
kicked 'em to the curb.

Auto maintenance shops in particular are a race to the bottom on
throughput, always more cars per hour, must go faster, auto mechanic is
a high-turnover industry in general.

On 6/10/2023 1:02 PM, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> On Sunday, June 11, 2023 at 2:10:20 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
>> https://amgreatness.com/2023/06/05/mike-rowe-is-on-a-mission-to-reverse-the-unspeakable-stupidity-of-devaluing-work/
>
> It's Tucker Carlson again.
>
>> He's right. Not everybody can play the college-essay game, and we don't need millions of artists and sociologists and film-makers surviving as Uber drivers and baristas.
>>
>> "America is lending money it doesn't have to kids who can’t pay it back to train them for jobs that no longer exist. That’s nuts."
>
> It's certainly nuts, but loads of people are making money out of training people for jobs that they won't be particularly good at.
>
> Money talks remarkably loudly in the US, and the people who are making money out of selling dubious training have a lot more political clout than anybody else.
>
>> We do need more electronics and manufacturing techs, more good HVAC and auto mechanics, more good IT support people, more good PCB layout people.
>
> But Tucker Carlson isn't the guy who will get them for you. Nor is Mike Rowe. He's clearly talking to the wrong people and not getting anywhere,
> It's clearly a social problem. Going to university and getting a degree is irrationally attractive. When I did it the drop out rate was about 30%, which makes it a risky investment for the average student. Vocational training in something you like doing is frequently a wiser choice, but it isn't touted as a glamorous route to a great career.

Even just some college education is often enough to to teach kids to be
skeptical of marketing, which is what Mike Rowe is in the business of.

“If you want to make America great again, you’ve got to make work cool
again,”

Anything but pay more money. Sort of like how the US Navy set up
recruitment centers outside theaters where the film "Top Gun" was
showing in the 80s - you know the most likely result is you're going to
be swabbing the deck, when anyone is telling you to think of how "cool"
you'll feel as a job perk, in lieu of taking about cash or actual perks.

On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 12:10:20 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> https://amgreatness.com/2023/06/05/mike-rowe-is-on-a-mission-to-reverse-the-unspeakable-stupidity-of-devaluing-work/
>
> He's right. Not everybody can play the college-essay game, and we
> don't need millions of artists and sociologists and film-makers
> surviving as Uber drivers and baristas.
>
> "America is lending money it doesn't have to kids who can’t pay it
> back to train them for jobs that no longer exist. That’s nuts."
>
> We do need more electronics and manufacturing techs, more good HVAC
> and auto mechanics, more good IT support people, more good PCB layout
> people.

Have you ever attended any kind of vocational training? It's unbearably moronic, and that's not to say most college undergraduate course work is not the same way. Rowe is too stupid to understand he's talking about maybe the 1% who will end up being any good- and then only after they've aged a bit to emerge from their arrested emotional development, if ever. That makes the training infrastructure about 100x more expensive than he thinks, and it's all being put on the taxpayer. If you're determined to flush money down the drain, it's better if people do that with their money.

>
> ---------------
>
> Have you noticed that many excellent PCB layout people are dyslexic?
> They are great with geometry but bad with words. This shows up as bad
> text placement and spelling (PARTS NOT USE) and inattention to
> reference designators. That's one reason that women are usually better
> at PCB layout. Boys are about 3x more likely to be dyslexic than
> girls, and things like PCB layout may selectively attract dyslexics.

On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 1:35:07 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
> On 6/10/2023 12:09 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> >
> > https://amgreatness.com/2023/06/05/mike-rowe-is-on-a-mission-to-reverse-the-unspeakable-stupidity-of-devaluing-work/
> >
> > He's right. Not everybody can play the college-essay game, and we
> > don't need millions of artists and sociologists and film-makers
> > surviving as Uber drivers and baristas.
> >
> > "America is lending money it doesn't have to kids who can’t pay it
> > back to train them for jobs that no longer exist. That’s nuts."
> >
> > We do need more electronics and manufacturing techs, more good HVAC
> > and auto mechanics, more good IT support people, more good PCB layout
> > people.
> >
> Incidentally a number of those "real jobs" like e.g. auto mechanic are
> very physically taxing (in a bad way); doing labor-intensive jobs for
> long periods of time in a country with as inconsistent and expensive a
> health care system as the US is a risky proposition.
>
> A relative of mine is facing multiple orthopedic surgeries well before
> age 60 due to being employed in the vehicle maintenance field,
> fortunately he works for a major logistics company that's more
> understanding/generous than some.
>
> Not everyone in the maintenance field is so fortunate; the vocational
> rehab centers are full of trade guys in their 60s, 50s, even 40s, who
> have aged or injured out of their chosen trade and their employer just
> kicked 'em to the curb.
>
> Auto maintenance shops in particular are a race to the bottom on
> throughput, always more cars per hour, must go faster, auto mechanic is
> a high-turnover industry in general.

It's worse than you know. American industry is responsible for 100s millions of avoidable deaths.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRqV8g4Uodo

Johns-Manville is now a Berkshire-Hathaway company.

On Sat, 10 Jun 2023 01:32:38, Wanderer<dont@emailme.com> wrote:

>While I agree with you that our education system does a lousy job of helping people find their place in the world, where they can earn a living and build a life for themselves. And I agree with you that the meritocracy devalues skills compared to knowledge, even though skills can be harder to obtain and more useful in the long run than knowledge. But skills can become obsolete very quickly. I got my start in engineering as a PCB designer on computer, while there were still drafters working by hand to maintain existing designs.

I kept a few tape-and-mylar examples to show to the kids. I don't miss
that at all.

I still sometimes draw schematics on D-size paper and give them to my
layout guy to enter. I enjoy drawing; I have a big wooden drafting
table with a giant window with a view.

>I would use these scanning tables to convert hand drawn schematics into computerized ones, slowly putting people out of work. What happens to your PCB designers when they get replaced by AI?

I doubt that AI can do decent PCB layouts. Autorouters are still
pretty bad and auto-place really sucks.

Flux now claims AI capability. Flux.ai. It will be interesting to see
if they survive.

>
>The reason for these over-priced community college degrees is that high school degrees are almost worthless.

There was a guy, used to post here, teaches industrial automation, a
2-year program, at Sierra College. We visited one of his classes. It
was awesome. He said that 100% of his grads get job offers, running
factories and such. One his grads, a girl, runs the gigantic Budweiser
brewery near Sacramento.

>All a high school proves is that you achieved minimum basic skills, and then the education is not equivalent among the students. We should end high school after the 10th grade. You've achieved minimum basic skills. Then hand out tuition vouchers for two to four year schools with advanced degrees that will mean something on a resume. And yes we should include skill training but it needs include a general enough knowledge base to last a lifetime. Having the state pay for education up front, allows them to negotiate costs up front instead of dealing with this nonsense of uncontrolled borrowing.
>We should get kids into college earlier and get the alcohol off campus. Get kids
>into the workforce at a younger age and get more kids to go for advanced degrees.

One reason to go to college is to learn to drink beer. But that's not
worth graduating $200K in debt.

On Sat, 10 Jun 2023 13:17:43 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

>On 6/10/2023 12:09 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>>
>> https://amgreatness.com/2023/06/05/mike-rowe-is-on-a-mission-to-reverse-the-unspeakable-stupidity-of-devaluing-work/
>>
>> He's right. Not everybody can play the college-essay game, and we
>> don't need millions of artists and sociologists and film-makers
>> surviving as Uber drivers and baristas.
>
>The kind of service-industry employee who tend to work as hard or harder
>for their pay than just about anyone, but don't fit the rah-rah macho
>real-man "no homo!" traditional type of masculine identity Mr. Rowe is
>most concerned about.

I'm sure thare are great female lesbian welders and motorcycle
mechanics. Few jobs nowadays need blacksmith sorts of muscle.

>
>> "America is lending money it doesn't have to kids who can’t pay it
>> back to train them for jobs that no longer exist. That’s nuts."
>>
>> We do need more electronics and manufacturing techs, more good HVAC
>> and auto mechanics, more good IT support people, more good PCB layout
>> people.
>
>There's not much "cool" about the boss making a dollar while you make a
>dime, putting in way more hours than he does while he's off on his
>yacht, meanwhile you don't even get paid leave!

A good electricial or plumber can make solid 6 figures, with no
student loans to pay off. Most seem to enjoy their jobs.

The building next to us the the union headquarters of the elevator
mechanics. They are cool. They have barbeques on the sidewalk just
below my window and have a lot of fun. Trade Unions are very different
from Labor Unions.

>
><https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/11/rail-strike-why-the-railroads-wont-give-in-on-paid-leave-psr-precision-scheduled-railroading.html>
>
>But how to make that in any way "cool" tends to be the inevitable
>conundrum of capitalist societies with large wealth disparity.

Wealth disparity is a lot better than uniform poverty. Most wealth is
just stock shares anyhow. There's no way to cash that in and usefully
distribute it to the general population. Jealousy is not sound
economic policy.

On 6/10/2023 4:24 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Jun 2023 13:17:43 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>
>> On 6/10/2023 12:09 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>>>
>>> https://amgreatness.com/2023/06/05/mike-rowe-is-on-a-mission-to-reverse-the-unspeakable-stupidity-of-devaluing-work/
>>>
>>> He's right. Not everybody can play the college-essay game, and we
>>> don't need millions of artists and sociologists and film-makers
>>> surviving as Uber drivers and baristas.
>>
>> The kind of service-industry employee who tend to work as hard or harder
>> for their pay than just about anyone, but don't fit the rah-rah macho
>> real-man "no homo!" traditional type of masculine identity Mr. Rowe is
>> most concerned about.
>
> I'm sure thare are great female lesbian welders and motorcycle
> mechanics. Few jobs nowadays need blacksmith sorts of muscle.
>
>
>
>>
>>> "America is lending money it doesn't have to kids who can’t pay it
>>> back to train them for jobs that no longer exist. That’s nuts."
>>>
>>> We do need more electronics and manufacturing techs, more good HVAC
>>> and auto mechanics, more good IT support people, more good PCB layout
>>> people.
>>
>> There's not much "cool" about the boss making a dollar while you make a
>> dime, putting in way more hours than he does while he's off on his
>> yacht, meanwhile you don't even get paid leave!
>
> A good electricial or plumber can make solid 6 figures, with no
> student loans to pay off. Most seem to enjoy their jobs.
>
> The building next to us the the union headquarters of the elevator
> mechanics. They are cool. They have barbeques on the sidewalk just
> below my window and have a lot of fun. Trade Unions are very different
> from Labor Unions.
>
>>
>> <https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/11/rail-strike-why-the-railroads-wont-give-in-on-paid-leave-psr-precision-scheduled-railroading.html>
>>
>> But how to make that in any way "cool" tends to be the inevitable
>> conundrum of capitalist societies with large wealth disparity.
>
> Wealth disparity is a lot better than uniform poverty. Most wealth is
> just stock shares anyhow. There's no way to cash that in and usefully
> distribute it to the general population. Jealousy is not sound
> economic policy.
>

Nah but if you want more people to get educated towards entering a given
field, and there's a dearth of employees and an urgent need for the
work, then Econ 101 says once the pay goes up commensurate to the need
people will show up to do it.

"CTE, and skilled trade professions, need a public relations makeover
and a champion. "

Shouldn't the market adjust? IMO money is an easy sell, shouldn't need a
PR campaign to get people interested in money.

On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 4:18:21 PM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:
> On 6/10/2023 4:24 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> > On Sat, 10 Jun 2023 13:17:43 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On 6/10/2023 12:09 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> >>>
> >>> https://amgreatness.com/2023/06/05/mike-rowe-is-on-a-mission-to-reverse-the-unspeakable-stupidity-of-devaluing-work/
> >>>
> >>> He's right. Not everybody can play the college-essay game, and we
> >>> don't need millions of artists and sociologists and film-makers
> >>> surviving as Uber drivers and baristas.
> >>
> >> The kind of service-industry employee who tend to work as hard or harder
> >> for their pay than just about anyone, but don't fit the rah-rah macho
> >> real-man "no homo!" traditional type of masculine identity Mr. Rowe is
> >> most concerned about.
> >
> > I'm sure thare are great female lesbian welders and motorcycle
> > mechanics. Few jobs nowadays need blacksmith sorts of muscle.
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>> "America is lending money it doesn't have to kids who can’t pay it
> >>> back to train them for jobs that no longer exist. That’s nuts.."
> >>>
> >>> We do need more electronics and manufacturing techs, more good HVAC
> >>> and auto mechanics, more good IT support people, more good PCB layout
> >>> people.
> >>
> >> There's not much "cool" about the boss making a dollar while you make a
> >> dime, putting in way more hours than he does while he's off on his
> >> yacht, meanwhile you don't even get paid leave!
> >
> > A good electricial or plumber can make solid 6 figures, with no
> > student loans to pay off. Most seem to enjoy their jobs.
> >
> > The building next to us the the union headquarters of the elevator
> > mechanics. They are cool. They have barbeques on the sidewalk just
> > below my window and have a lot of fun. Trade Unions are very different
> > from Labor Unions.
> >
> >>
> >> <https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/11/rail-strike-why-the-railroads-wont-give-in-on-paid-leave-psr-precision-scheduled-railroading.html>
> >>
> >> But how to make that in any way "cool" tends to be the inevitable
> >> conundrum of capitalist societies with large wealth disparity.
> >
> > Wealth disparity is a lot better than uniform poverty. Most wealth is
> > just stock shares anyhow. There's no way to cash that in and usefully
> > distribute it to the general population. Jealousy is not sound
> > economic policy.
> >
> Nah but if you want more people to get educated towards entering a given
> field, and there's a dearth of employees and an urgent need for the
> work, then Econ 101 says once the pay goes up commensurate to the need
> people will show up to do it.
>
> "CTE, and skilled trade professions, need a public relations makeover
> and a champion. "
>
> Shouldn't the market adjust? IMO money is an easy sell, shouldn't need a
> PR campaign to get people interested in money.

A farm equipment dealer here in Nebraska offers a two year school program including
room and board. The recruit is supposed to work for the dealer for five years.
<https://landmark.careers/student-tech-program/>

In article <ghl98iddiq2htnqks425higlea59d3qlr8@4ax.com>,
jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com says...
>
> One reason to go to college is to learn to drink beer. But that's not
> worth graduating $200K in debt.
>
>
>

Before the states raised the beer drinking from 18 to 21 we learned beer
drinking in high school. Usually starting in the 11 grade. Many
started around 17 years old even though it was illeagle.

In article <Xe2hM.37350$kHz5.14270@fx15.iad>, user@example.net says...
>
> There's not much "cool" about the boss making a dollar while you make a
> dime, putting in way more hours than he does while he's off on his
> yacht, meanwhile you don't even get paid leave!
>
>
>

Due to that around here a man will work for the big car dealers long
enough to get good at repairing the cars. If he is very good ,he opens
up his own shop. The car dealers would be better off paying the better
ones a higher wage.

In article <7v2hM.6912$31Ie.1984@fx45.iad>, user@example.net says...
>
> Auto maintenance shops in particular are a race to the bottom on
> throughput, always more cars per hour, must go faster, auto mechanic is
> a high-turnover industry in general.
>
>
>

The better ones open up their own shop around here.

On Sat, 10 Jun 2023 13:34:58 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

>On 6/10/2023 12:09 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>>
>> https://amgreatness.com/2023/06/05/mike-rowe-is-on-a-mission-to-reverse-the-unspeakable-stupidity-of-devaluing-work/
>>
>> He's right. Not everybody can play the college-essay game, and we
>> don't need millions of artists and sociologists and film-makers
>> surviving as Uber drivers and baristas.
>>
>> "America is lending money it doesn't have to kids who can’t pay it
>> back to train them for jobs that no longer exist. That’s nuts."
>>
>> We do need more electronics and manufacturing techs, more good HVAC
>> and auto mechanics, more good IT support people, more good PCB layout
>> people.
>>
>
>Incidentally a number of those "real jobs" like e.g. auto mechanic are
>very physically taxing (in a bad way); doing labor-intensive jobs for
>long periods of time in a country with as inconsistent and expensive a
>health care system as the US is a risky proposition.

Auto mechanics spend a lot of time programming engine control
computers. That's a speciality that doesn't need a lot of brawn.

We have power tools and lifts now too.

On Sat, 10 Jun 2023 11:08:42 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 12:10:20?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
>> https://amgreatness.com/2023/06/05/mike-rowe-is-on-a-mission-to-reverse-the-unspeakable-stupidity-of-devaluing-work/
>>
>> He's right. Not everybody can play the college-essay game, and we
>> don't need millions of artists and sociologists and film-makers
>> surviving as Uber drivers and baristas.
>>
>> "America is lending money it doesn't have to kids who can’t pay it
>> back to train them for jobs that no longer exist. That’s nuts."
>>
>> We do need more electronics and manufacturing techs, more good HVAC
>> and auto mechanics, more good IT support people, more good PCB layout
>> people.
>
>Have you ever attended any kind of vocational training?

I did visit the controls class at Sierra College. They were doing
really cool stuff. The class project was to build a control system
with motors and sensors and stuff. They machined the mechanical parts,
did their own PCB design and layout and assembly, wrote the code.

I bet the average MIT EE grad doesn't know how to drill a hole or
solder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIhk9eKOLzQ

On Sat, 10 Jun 2023 17:18:14 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

>On 6/10/2023 4:24 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Sat, 10 Jun 2023 13:17:43 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/10/2023 12:09 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>
>>>> https://amgreatness.com/2023/06/05/mike-rowe-is-on-a-mission-to-reverse-the-unspeakable-stupidity-of-devaluing-work/
>>>>
>>>> He's right. Not everybody can play the college-essay game, and we
>>>> don't need millions of artists and sociologists and film-makers
>>>> surviving as Uber drivers and baristas.
>>>
>>> The kind of service-industry employee who tend to work as hard or harder
>>> for their pay than just about anyone, but don't fit the rah-rah macho
>>> real-man "no homo!" traditional type of masculine identity Mr. Rowe is
>>> most concerned about.
>>
>> I'm sure thare are great female lesbian welders and motorcycle
>> mechanics. Few jobs nowadays need blacksmith sorts of muscle.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> "America is lending money it doesn't have to kids who can’t pay it
>>>> back to train them for jobs that no longer exist. That’s nuts."
>>>>
>>>> We do need more electronics and manufacturing techs, more good HVAC
>>>> and auto mechanics, more good IT support people, more good PCB layout
>>>> people.
>>>
>>> There's not much "cool" about the boss making a dollar while you make a
>>> dime, putting in way more hours than he does while he's off on his
>>> yacht, meanwhile you don't even get paid leave!
>>
>> A good electricial or plumber can make solid 6 figures, with no
>> student loans to pay off. Most seem to enjoy their jobs.
>>
>> The building next to us the the union headquarters of the elevator
>> mechanics. They are cool. They have barbeques on the sidewalk just
>> below my window and have a lot of fun. Trade Unions are very different
>> from Labor Unions.
>>
>>>
>>> <https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/11/rail-strike-why-the-railroads-wont-give-in-on-paid-leave-psr-precision-scheduled-railroading.html>
>>>
>>> But how to make that in any way "cool" tends to be the inevitable
>>> conundrum of capitalist societies with large wealth disparity.
>>
>> Wealth disparity is a lot better than uniform poverty. Most wealth is
>> just stock shares anyhow. There's no way to cash that in and usefully
>> distribute it to the general population. Jealousy is not sound
>> economic policy.
>>
>
>
>Nah but if you want more people to get educated towards entering a given
>field, and there's a dearth of employees and an urgent need for the
>work, then Econ 101 says once the pay goes up commensurate to the need
>people will show up to do it.

Any time you fight supply and demand, it fights back.

>
>"CTE, and skilled trade professions, need a public relations makeover
>and a champion. "
>
>Shouldn't the market adjust? IMO money is an easy sell, shouldn't need a
>PR campaign to get people interested in money.

Mexican construction guys and house cleaners can make $100 an hour
here.

On 6/10/2023 1:32 AM, Wanderer wrote:
> While I agree with you that our education system does a lousy job of helping
> people find their place in the world, where they can earn a living and build
> a life for themselves. And I agree with you that the meritocracy devalues
> skills compared to knowledge, even though skills can be harder to obtain and
> more useful in the long run than knowledge. But skills can become obsolete
> very quickly.

Witness the "why-can't-we-go-back-to-our-respected-positions-from-the-50's"
crowd. Look at how much has changed in YOUR lifetime (in terms of skills).

When was the last time you saw a "secretary" given a typing test? Or,
steno? Or, 10-key?

When I was younger, I had to know how to operate a keypunch just to get my
code into the mainframe. When was the last time I needed a job control card?
Or, to draw a flowchart? Petri net?

Wirewrap a design? Solder? Prototype (to test/verify a design)? Tape
a layout?

All of these are easily replaced with technological advances. And, yield
more consistent results. Fewer people doing/supervising more "output".

> I got my start in engineering as a PCB designer on computer,
> while there were still drafters working by hand to maintain existing
> designs. I would use these scanning tables to convert hand drawn schematics
> into computerized ones, slowly putting people out of work. What happens to
> your PCB designers when they get replaced by AI?

They go away.

What happens to your PCB *fab* when someone offshore can do the job
quicker, faster and without requiring all that floorspace/staff?

Layout, so far, is driven by simple rules with easily codified
criteria: minimize total run length, etc. AIs will look at
"successful" layouts and deduce the common threads in them.
Your "PCB guy" will simply be there to catch instances where
it "went wrong" and give it direction as to how the layout needs
to change.

He likely won't be able to *ask* the AI why it made a particular
"mistake" and get an answer that he can make sense of.

Or, he will have to develop yet another (obsolescent) *skill*
trying to understand the AIs quirks. (which won't be portable to
some other AI or one trained on a different style of boards)

What do you do when your tech support staff is replaced by an
AI (that can handle many transactions concurrently) -- because it
has "watched" past interactions and sorted out how those were
ULTIMATELY resolved (ignoring all of the needless gyrations that
may have been recommended by the human staff grasping at straws).

Accountants? Facility managers?

My personal favorite: TV talking heads! (the AI writes the copy AND
animates the avatar!)

> The reason for these over-priced community college degrees is that high
> school degrees are almost worthless. All a high school proves is that you
> achieved minimum basic skills, and then the education is not equivalent
> among the students. We should end high school after the 10th grade. You've
> achieved minimum basic skills.

If 4 years of HS isn't sufficient, how is 2 yrs? Is there a subset of
"minimum basic skills" that is the real "achieved minimum basic skills"?

How much "History" can we elide from the General Zeitgeist? "Math"?
"English/grammar/writing"? Foreign language study? Wood/metal/auto-shop?

We had two paths through HS: "college prep" and "business". Same teachers
but different curriculae.

And, there are still firms that "fix" what the HS's missed so students don't
start college without the TRUE "basic minimum" skillset.

> Then hand out tuition vouchers for two to
> four year schools with advanced degrees that will mean something on a
> resume. And yes we should include skill training but it needs include a
> general enough knowledge base to last a lifetime.

So, in those "two to four year" schools, you're going to pick up the last
two years of HS *and* some additional skills for that "advanced degree"?

What are you going to cut? (or, are you going to extend the school year)

Sure, we don't *all* need to have a core set of literature that we've
jointly read -- but, isn't that part of what makes it a "shared culture"?
How much does knowledge of the revolutionary war "help" you in ANY career?
Or, "civics"?

Why do we have "school teams" (football, basketball, baseball, *golf*?!, etc.)?
How many of those folks will ever USE those skills AFTER HS?

> Having the state pay for
> education up front, allows them to negotiate costs up front instead of
> dealing with this nonsense of uncontrolled borrowing.

Part of the inflation associated with post HS education was the "open
market" approach to education. Sure, you BUY a degree from For Profit
School #753 -- but, what value will it have, to YOU? Can you examine
the value it had to past attendees? Can you examine the *criteria* that
were used to select those attendees? (if the school's motive is
profit, they'll be more likely to take anyone who can pay... which doesn't
necessarily correlate with their outcome after graduation)

> We should get kids into college earlier and get the alcohol off campus. Get
> kids into the workforce at a younger age and get more kids to go for
> advanced degrees.

Part of college is growing up. (and, if you want them to start growing up
two years *earlier*...?) Learning that YOU are responsible for getting to
class on time. Completing your assignments. Keeping out of jail. etc.
If you aren't allowed to make mistakes, then you'll just not learn (as
much).

We have a really long hallway that connects many of the buildings, on campus
("the infinite hallway"). In my first power outage, I headed out across
campus to visit friends on the far side -- carrying a couple of oversized
"balloons" full of N2O. At the halfway point (in that hallway), I came to
a couple of large staircases -- occupied by dozens of oriental students
trying to do their homework under the emergency lighting!

I.e., they *had* no choice in that situation. Or, *felt* like they had none.
So, never had to address the issue of not having enough (illuminated) time
to complete it. No need to juggle OTHER priorities to compensate.

And, likely saw school as a "chore" instead of a learning experience.

On 6/10/2023 2:52 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> Before the states raised the beer drinking from 18 to 21 we learned beer
> drinking in high school. Usually starting in the 11 grade. Many
> started around 17 years old even though it was illeagle.

Nothing wrong with drinking beer, shooting pool, tossing dice, "dating"
women, smoking, drug use -- or any of the other "distractions" that you
*taste* while growing up.

[Those who didn't "experiment" are often the worse for it as they have no
idea what they will ultimately, invariably, CONDEMN. And, be 105% clueless
when those around them -- offspring? -- engage in those sorts of behaviors.]

The problem is the folks who don't GROW UP and learn that there is
a place for these activities and a place NOT for them.

I've seen folks come to work drunk. People jeopardize their careers
(and families) over gambling debts. "Philander", etc. They've
clearly not LEARNED what's appropriate (or, have a "problem" that
requires special care beyond what they are able to provide for
themselves).

On 6/10/2023 2:18 PM, bitrex wrote:
> Nah but if you want more people to get educated towards entering a given field,
> and there's a dearth of employees and an urgent need for the work, then Econ
> 101 says once the pay goes up commensurate to the need people will show up to
> do it.

This is the perennial "we-need-more-guest-workers-cuz-we-can't-find-people-to-
do-these-jobs" (so, lets rewrite child labor laws to solve the problem!
After all, we VALUE FAMILIES -- even if they end up suffering injuries
or forfeiting their childhoods!!)

> "CTE, and skilled trade professions, need a public relations makeover and a
> champion. "
>
> Shouldn't the market adjust? IMO money is an easy sell, shouldn't need a PR
> campaign to get people interested in money.

Perception too often drives reality. I'm sure dairy farmers THOUGHT that
they had to (conspire to) keep costs down to keep their products affordable.
But, lo and behold, when something affected the entire industry AND THEIR
COMPETITORS SIMILARLY FACED INCREASED COSTS, the market still managed to
exist -- albeit with some likely changes.

Is a sheepskin from X "worth more" than one from Y? Will it command a higher
pay (or level of respect/responsibility)? Who wants to roll those dice
given that the results will likely be severely decoupled from the decision
(and likely costly to reverse)?

"Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM..."

On 6/10/2023 2:43 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
> A farm equipment dealer here in Nebraska offers a two year school program including
> room and board. The recruit is supposed to work for the dealer for five years.
> <https://landmark.careers/student-tech-program/>

Part of the appeal of Apprenticeships, in The trades, is to get an idea
of whether you'd like to hire that person as a regular employee. What
better "test" than watching their performance, on-the-job (even if,
admittedly, in a junior role)?

But, now you have a different problem to manage: what if you stumble upon
a really stellar applicant -- and are on-the-hook to hire this other
"student"? I'm sure the student took the aid not just for it's immediate
value (offset education cost) but for the promise of employment that would
follow ("I won't have to worry about a job for 5 years!")

On 6/10/2023 2:56 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> Due to that around here a man will work for the big car dealers long
> enough to get good at repairing the cars. If he is very good ,he opens
> up his own shop. The car dealers would be better off paying the better
> ones a higher wage.

That's true in many industries -- esp those with a relatively low
"investment/startup cost".

It makes you think, hard, about hiring firms that, in turn, hire
workers: how good are the workers if they are still *employees*?
why can't they make it on their own?

There's more to "selling labor/services" than just the know-how.
You also have to have the discipline to be reliable, responsible,
safe, available, etc. You can walk away from a *job* but not
a *contract*!

I've got a buddy who is a STELLAR engineer! His designs are
amazingly innovative and inexpensive to produce/maintain.

But, getting him to actually *do* the work on a schedule is
like pulling teeth! Give him 6 months for a task -- and he'll
start on it the week before it's due. Then, the result will
appear "rushed" with little details omitted, etc.

So, you have to plan on a period of "cleanup", after the due date.

Several of us rely on his services. And, know of his perpetual
procrastination. So, we informally kabitz about the various
commitments he's made to each of us -- so we don't aim to
get a result from him when we know he's going to be "cramming".

*HE* needs a manager -- if only to keep him scheduled correctly.
But, bristles at the thought of a boss!

On Sat, 10 Jun 2023 18:30:40 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

>On 6/10/2023 1:32 AM, Wanderer wrote:
>> While I agree with you that our education system does a lousy job of helping
>> people find their place in the world, where they can earn a living and build
>> a life for themselves. And I agree with you that the meritocracy devalues
>> skills compared to knowledge, even though skills can be harder to obtain and
>> more useful in the long run than knowledge. But skills can become obsolete
>> very quickly.
>
>Witness the "why-can't-we-go-back-to-our-respected-positions-from-the-50's"
>crowd. Look at how much has changed in YOUR lifetime (in terms of skills).
>
>When was the last time you saw a "secretary" given a typing test? Or,
>steno? Or, 10-key?

Early in th PC era, one expert said "you will never get a businessman
to type."

>
>When I was younger, I had to know how to operate a keypunch just to get my
>code into the mainframe. When was the last time I needed a job control card?
>Or, to draw a flowchart? Petri net?
>
>Wirewrap a design? Solder? Prototype (to test/verify a design)? Tape
>a layout?

I still breadboard to test parts or simple circuits. Many parts aren't
specified or modeled enough to trust simulation.

Nest week I need to blow up a bunch of solid-state relays. SSRs never
have SOAR graphs. With a bit of luck and some tricks, *almost* blowing
them up might do.

>
>All of these are easily replaced with technological advances. And, yield
>more consistent results. Fewer people doing/supervising more "output".
>
>> I got my start in engineering as a PCB designer on computer,
>> while there were still drafters working by hand to maintain existing
>> designs. I would use these scanning tables to convert hand drawn schematics
>> into computerized ones, slowly putting people out of work. What happens to
>> your PCB designers when they get replaced by AI?
>
>They go away.
>
>What happens to your PCB *fab* when someone offshore can do the job
>quicker, faster and without requiring all that floorspace/staff?
>
>Layout, so far, is driven by simple rules with easily codified
>criteria: minimize total run length, etc. AIs will look at
>"successful" layouts and deduce the common threads in them.
>Your "PCB guy" will simply be there to catch instances where
>it "went wrong" and give it direction as to how the layout needs
>to change.
>

PCB layout is rarely driven by simple rules, especially for fast or
high-power-density products. I don't know how I could communicate all
the requirements to AI, even if decent AI existed. I can't even
communicate all the issues to my PC layout guy. I do the critical bits
myself.

>He likely won't be able to *ask* the AI why it made a particular
>"mistake" and get an answer that he can make sense of.
>
>Or, he will have to develop yet another (obsolescent) *skill*
>trying to understand the AIs quirks. (which won't be portable to
>some other AI or one trained on a different style of boards)
>
>What do you do when your tech support staff is replaced by an
>AI (that can handle many transactions concurrently) -- because it
>has "watched" past interactions and sorted out how those were
>ULTIMATELY resolved (ignoring all of the needless gyrations that
>may have been recommended by the human staff grasping at straws).
>
>Accountants? Facility managers?
>
>My personal favorite: TV talking heads! (the AI writes the copy AND
>animates the avatar!)

That's easier.

On 2023-06-11, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

> Why do we have "school teams" (football, basketball, baseball, *golf*?!, etc.)?
> How many of those folks will ever USE those skills AFTER HS?

Vanity mainly, but some of them pay for college that way, some may even
make it a career. Also it teaches cooperation.

--
Jasen.
🇺🇦 Слава Україні

On a sunny day (Sat, 10 Jun 2023 11:08:42 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote in
<274a6302-7461-42c2-bec2-53c1ed34de7en@googlegroups.com>:

>On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 12:10:20 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
>> https://amgreatness.com/2023/06/05/mike-rowe-is-on-a-mission-to-reverse-t=
>he-unspeakable-stupidity-of-devaluing-work/
>>
>> He's right. Not everybody can play the college-essay game, and we
>> don't need millions of artists and sociologists and film-makers
>> surviving as Uber drivers and baristas.
>>
>> "America is lending money it doesn't have to kids who can’t pay i=
>t
>> back to train them for jobs that no longer exist. That’s nuts."=
>
>>
>> We do need more electronics and manufacturing techs, more good HVAC
>> and auto mechanics, more good IT support people, more good PCB layout
>> people.
>
>Have you ever attended any kind of vocational training? It's unbearably mor=
>onic, and that's not to say most college undergraduate course work is not t=
>he same way. Rowe is too stupid to understand he's talking about maybe the =
>1% who will end up being any good- and then only after they've aged a bit t=
>o emerge from their arrested emotional development, if ever. That makes the=
> training infrastructure about 100x more expensive than he thinks, and it's=
> all being put on the taxpayer. If you're determined to flush money down th=
>e drain, it's better if people do that with their money.

What we need is basic understanding.
My second job: (after designing for army navy and power stations sort of stuff): I applied
for a job in broadcasting (TV was my hobby anyways and I already had designed and build my own TV camera).
That got me the job, 6 month in the school banks followed by an exam and a contract to stay for a few years
All payed for..
Its a wide field, electronics in broadcasting, and constantly changes,
Now its all digital, in those days the sixties we even still had some tube equipment in use.,
It involved much more than just electronics, from politics, management (running the technical part of a studio)
to how to handle people in a fire etc.., fault finding, repairs, the show must go on.
So we got lessons from experts in many different fields, audio, video, satellite, security, management
I enjoyed all that and still use knowledge gained.
There is more than just making a peeseebee, peeseebees I have made since I was a kid, etching those at home..
But designing the circuits comes first.. and to know what to design you have to know what is needed,
what is possible.
When very young (9 years ? or so), I already soldered things together to make radios...
I had the book 'Zo werkt de radio' (that is how radio works) by Van Aisberg from the library..
https://www.deslegte.com/zo-werkt-de-radio-381461/
super heterodyne was simple to me.
Many could not even read at that age, .. circuits, fun!
It all depends on your interests I guess.
cars, of course I worked on cars, like anybody back then repairing a clutch or gearbox, dirty ...
Motorcycles I had too.... We had a auto club where I worked, access to our own garage and tools.

Am 76 now, still running....
And still learning, interested in many more fields than just 'tronics...
Later - after broadcasting life, travelled the world did many jobs in electronics everywhere from hospitals to space to missiles to what not
Bit of experience everywhere..
If I was born again, with the right info available. I would go for DNA RNA and make my own dino, life.
We are, after all, nothing special, just a slightly more advanced stage of self-assembly
like electrons and protons and neutrons make up our elements that then combine to make all sort of things,
also ever moving .. called life, us, and we making AI etc etc that then makes ?
Its simple, religions and similar groups wanting to control people and mystify things may obscure that.
We, life, are just a natural process happening all over the 'universe' (what we know of it anyways).
Dogma and religions are our obstacle.
Look and decude, fault finding (what I have done as job much of my life) learn to see...
But the basic understanding of things comes first, I have seen people fail in that that had a very high degree education.
To attain riches has never been my direct goal, that is easy... curiosity is my nature
to understand things.
Chatting with AI is in a way, at least for me do far, playing with it to test where it goes wrong...
But it can be helpful too as it does have access to so much information.